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BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 05:27 PM
By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


The New England Patriots on Friday rejected trade proposals for holdout wide receiver Deion Branch, leaving the sides at a stalemate as teams prepare for their season openers next week.


In fact, the parties' stances might have grown more contentious Friday, with sources confirming that Branch and agent Jason Chayut have filed a grievance against the Patriots through the NFL Players Association. In the grievance, filed after the 4 p.m. Friday deadline passed without a trade, Branch is seeking an expeditious hearing in front of a "special master" arbitrator.


The full grounds of the grievance were not immediately clear, but it is thought Branch will contend that New England officials promised his representatives they would trade him if the Patriots received a reasonable offer. Chayut is apparently prepared to argue, if a grievance hearing is convened, that trade offers made by the New York Jets and Seattle Seahawks were appropriate and of a fair market value, given recent deals involving other NFL wide receivers.


The team issued a two-sentence statement Friday that read, "No trade has been consummated. Deion Branch remains under contract to the New England Patriots." The team had no comment on the grievance.


Branch had earlier reached agreements with the Seahawks and Jets on what ESPN.com has learned was a six-year, $39 million contract. The contract included a combined $13 million in guaranteed signing and option bonuses. Under the contract, Branch would have earned nearly $23 million in the first three years of the deal.


Of course, the contract agreements with the Seahawks and Jets are essentially rendered moot now.


ESPN.com's Michael Smith reported Monday that, according to several league sources, the Patriots were seeking two first-round draft choices for Branch. Other league sources told ESPN.com that New England might have considered dealing Branch for first- and middle-round choices. It is thought the teams involved did not offer New England more than a second-round draft pick and that the Patriots did not come close to making a deal.

Who takes the next step toward a possible reconciliation, with the sides seemingly at an impasse, remains to be seen.


People close to Branch insist he will not crack and will report to the Patriots for only the final six games of the season, enough to earn an accrued year toward the pension, and to qualify him for unrestricted free agency next spring.


Although last week's move by the Patriots was surprising, it also reflected the state of discussions between the sides. There has been virtually no meaningful dialogue for weeks and Branch, the team's leading receiver in 2005, remains out of camp and is being fined $14,000 a day during his absence.


It is thought that, at some point in the offseason, the Patriots offered two extension proposals: a three-year deal worth $18.75 million with $8 million of that guaranteed, and a five-year extension at $31 million, with $11 million in bonuses.


Branch, 27, is scheduled to earn a base salary of $1.05 million in 2006, the final season of the five-year contract he signed as a second-round choice in the 2002 draft. And the base salary is only that high because Branch performed well enough to trigger an "escalator" in the contract that raised his compensation by $500,000.


Team officials indicated as far back as March that securing an extension with Branch was a priority, but the sides have been unable to strike a deal and talks seem at a dead end.


Branch is coming off a career year in which he had 78 receptions for 998 yards and five touchdowns. For his career, Branch has 213 catches for 2,744 yards and 14 touchdowns. He has appeared in 53 games and logged 42 starts. He earned most valuable player honors in Super Bowl XXXIX when he tied a title game record with 11 receptions, netting 133 yards.

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 05:43 PM
Yep unfortunately things are panning out pretty much as expected.

Here is the scenario as I see it.

1. The player is under contract and is obligated to play for the team for a certain period of time.

2. Despite this, the player chooses to disregard his contractual obligations and fails to report.

3. The team, which was under no obligation to do so, nevertheless offered the player a contract extension for $19M over 3 years, and as another alternative for 5 years and $30M.

4. The player does not even respond to these offers with a counteroffer.

5. The team voluntarily extends the privilege to the player to find for himself a trade to another team if the team which owns the player's rights can receive what they consider fair and reasonable compensation. Of course the team is under no obligation to make this offer and is under no obligation to accept any offer EVEN IF, in their sole judgment, they do not feel is fair and reasonable and in their best interests.

6. The player files a grievance against the team for supposedly violating the terms of an imaginary agreement.

I cannot imagine that the NFLPA will take Branch's side on this - he still has time to run on his current contract.

As expected a division rival came in with a very generous offer to the player knowing that the Patriots would disregard their derisory offer of a 2nd rounder.

This way, it re-inforces Branch's opinion that he is worth more than the Patriots are offering - and the Jets know they wont be called to honor that offer.

At this stage it looks like he is sitting out the first 10 games.

NM

Jeremy
09-01-2006, 05:44 PM
the Patriots were seeking two first-round draft choices for Branch.

:sofunny:

New England is toast on this one.

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 05:46 PM
the Patriots were seeking two first-round draft choices for Branch.

:sofunny:

New England is toast on this one.

I looked at that as a starting point for negotiations - what the Jets reportedly offered ( a 2nd rounder) was so far away from that you can only think they werent after the player at all.

Just trying to stir up some more unrest.

NM

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 05:46 PM
The NFLPA will take his side..and here's why.....

You are correct...he has a contract.....but....

if a player's team decides to cut him...they owe him nothing...the only guaranteed money in any NFL contract is the signing bonus....

So..the NFLPA will counter with..."why should a player honor a contract when the team has the arbitrary right to cancel said contract with no reason or cause??"

This has been the contention between players and management since the current (and new) CBA has been in place....:cool: :cool:

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 05:50 PM
I looked at that as a starting point for negotiations - what the Jets reportedly offered ( a 2nd rounder) was so far away from that you can only think they werent after the player at all.

Just trying to stir up some more unrest.

NM

branch could have a shot if it goes to an arbitrator....

Im sure they will contest that other players with his credentials have been traded for a 2nd round pick..or a little more...and they will go on to say that the Pats offer of "letting him come up with a trade" was not made in good faith, being that they are asking for unreasonable compensation...

Personally?..I think they both are wrong...but I'm telling ya..as soon as the NFLPA and Upshaw get involved...advantage Branch...:cool: :cool:

SteelersFire
09-01-2006, 05:53 PM
But ... a contract is a contract. As the contracted one, you either have to buy your way out or be released because of breach. No? Did he breach? Did they?

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 05:57 PM
But ... a contract is a contract. As the contracted one, you either have to buy your way out or be released because of breach. No? Did he breach? Did they?

his choice Fire....play and get paid..or sit and dont get paid...

Hey LITP...what is the actual deal here?..its got to be more than money...whats Branch so pissed off about???

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 06:01 PM
I think the best test case is Owens - he had to buy out his contract in Philly if I remember right?

Its not as if he is a restricted free agent anyway is it?

He has a contract - if he wont play he can ride the pine for the remainder of the season until he sees the rest of it out.

NM

SteelersFire
09-01-2006, 06:06 PM
Ok ... so we agree on that LItP and BNG203. The man has a contract. There is no breach on either side but Branch isn't happy. Anybody can buy out his contract if they think he's worth it, but if they don't, and he won't, then he sits out the season. Yes?

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 06:06 PM
his choice Fire....play and get paid..or sit and dont get paid...

Hey LITP...what is the actual deal here?..its got to be more than money...whats Branch so pissed off about???


Its hard to say 203,

Branch feels he should be paid like a genuine No.1 receiver - in the Fitzgerald, Moss, Owens category.

He has seen David Givens, who previously below him in the depth chart, go to the Titans for big money. (24 Mil for 5 years)

I had a horrible feeling when Reggie Wayne signed that huge deal in Indianapolis that this would be the result - he is a No.2 receiver and got a huge pay day.

His agents comment from the word go have been irritating - how he finds the Patriots offer 'insulting' etc etc.

My own gut feeling is that the agent makes the most money from getting Deion the biggest deal - even if he has to wait an extra year for it - I doubt he cares too much.

Remember, they were the ones who refused to make a counter offer to what was seen as a very generous opening bid by the Patriots.

That, to me, doesn't sound like a guy who wants to get something worked out.

NM

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 06:09 PM
Ok ... so we agree on that LItP and BNG203. The man has a contract. There is no breach on either side but Branch isn't happy. Anybody can buy out his contract if they think he's worth it, but if they don't, and he won't, then he sits out the season. Yes?

Just buying out his contract isn't enough.

The Patriots are looking for compensation for losing a key WR with no time find a decent replacement.

They (allegedly) are talking two 1st rounders - the Jets (allegedly) offered a single 2nd rounder.

NM

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 06:09 PM
Ok ... so we agree on that LItP and BNG203. The man has a contract. There is no breach on either side but Branch isn't happy. Anybody can buy out his contract if they think he's worth it, but if they don't, and he won't, then he sits out the season. Yes?

Simply put Fire...for as long as he hold out..he doesnt get paid....

Players dont normally buy back their contracts...they use the absense of their services as leverage to have teams renegotiate their contracts...if the Patriots feel comfortable without him...they will let him rot...and pay him nothing...

SteelersFire
09-01-2006, 06:30 PM
Ok ... I got both of you with the points you offer. I know if Branch holds out he doesn't get paid. That's because he isn't performing under the contract he has. And I understand that players don't normally buy back their own contracts. But I guess my point is this: if Branch isn't happy (and I'll point way back to Raiders' Marcus Allen on this one); why should he be on the bench when another team might play him?

So who's breach is it? Branch for holding out so he can get the play he feels he deserves? Or Pats for sitting him out because Branch wants more money and recognition than they feel he deserves?

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 06:37 PM
If you want to look at the concept of breach...Branch is in breach...his penalty?...no money....The Patriots own his rights by contract..they will not just give him away....

one more point in regards to branch's penalty for being "in breach"...

NFL players do not get paid for training camp or exhibition games..only for regular season games....

teams can fine players up to $14,000 a day for holding out from training camp...and when the regular season starts..the fine is his actual game check...(if a player makes $1 mill/year..he's actually being "fined" $62,500 for every game they miss)...

so..for missing 30 days of training camp?...Branch can actually be fined up to $420,000...

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 06:57 PM
I dont think the contract specifies that Branch has to play - even if he reports, in fact i'd be surprised if this is in any players contract.

Common sense tells us that Branch would have played if he had reported to camp, but the the Patriots contract merely pays him to be available for selection.

If the Patriots want him on the bench, thats exactly where they can keep him - they could even cite his missed preseason and TC as reason enough to demote him down the depth chart.

I dont see how the NFLPA can insist that the Patriots play him or let him move.

If worse comes to worse he will be ledt on the bench and then franchised next year - lets see how many teams are willing to pay out the compensation that requires.

NM

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 07:00 PM
I dont think the contract specifies that Branch has to play - even if he reports, in fact i'd be surprised if this is in any players contract.

Common sense tells us that Branch would have played if he had reported to camp, but the the Patriots contract merely pays him to be available for selection.

If the Patriots want him on the bench, thats exactly where they can keep him - they could even cite his missed preseason and TC as reason enough to demote him down the depth chart.

I dont see how the NFLPA can insist that the Patriots play him or let him move.

If worse comes to worse he will be ledt on the bench and then franchised next year - lets see how many teams are willing to pay out the compensation that requires.

NM

if they franchise tag him..they would have to pay him the average of the top 5 WR...obviously they dont want to do that, or they would have offerred that in the 1st place

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 07:02 PM
if they franchise tag him..they would have to pay him the average of the top 5 WR...obviously they dont want to do that, or they would have offerred that in the 1st place


Thats a good point.

NM

SteelersFire
09-01-2006, 07:08 PM
Gee. Sounds like I made you mad BNG203. :( Surely didn't mean to. I think I pursue an ethics question. And maybe that's not what your topic invited?

See, I think if Branch isn't getting used to his potential then he has the right to look for something better with another team, under the precept that his contract is being breached because he isn't being played. Again, I point to the Marcus/Raiders situation because it stands out clearly in my mind. Not much else does; age'll do that to ya LOL

Branch can look around, but he has a contractual obligation on the face of things. I'm only saying he has to prove a breach of that contract to be released with no penalty. The way I'm thinking, if they don't play him, he has a fighting chance at relying on a breach.

Will any other team willingly get into the fray on that? Well probably not. In which case, Branch will sit on the bench until he's contractually free and clear.

No?

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 07:13 PM
Gee. Sounds like I made you mad BNG203. :( Surely didn't mean to. I think I pursue an ethics question. And maybe that's not what your topic invited?

See, I think if Branch isn't getting used to his potential then he has the right to look for something better with another team, under the precept that his contract is being breached because he isn't being played. Again, I point to the Marcus/Raiders situation because it stands out clearly in my mind. Not much else does; age'll do that to ya LOL

Branch can look around, but he has a contractual obligation on the face of things. I'm only saying he has to prove a breach of that contract to be released with no penalty. The way I'm thinking, if they don't play him, he has a fighting chance at relying on a breach.

Will any other team willingly get into the fray on that? Well probably not. In which case, Branch will sit on the bench until he's contractually free and clear.

No?

LOL..you certainly didnt make me mad....:smile:

keep in mind...the patriots WANT Branch to play..it is Branch that is refusing to do so...The Patriots publically gave Branch permission to seek a trade..so yes..other teams can come into this...but they have to offer the Pats something they want..the Pats hold the cards in that situation...:cool: :cool:

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 07:14 PM
Oh...one more thing....

This is professional sports...ethics really dont come into play....LOL..:smile: :smile:

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 07:38 PM
Oh...one more thing....

This is professional sports...ethics really dont come into play....LOL..:smile: :smile:

That certainly is the bottom line 203.

Good points also, Steelersfire - and a belated welcome to the forum.

NM

hardwork
09-01-2006, 07:45 PM
if they franchise tag him..they would have to pay him the average of the top 5 WR...obviously they dont want to do that, or they would have offerred that in the 1st place

Yeah, but that isn't a long term contract. They don't have to pay him that for several years. Big difference.

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 07:48 PM
Yeah, but that isn't a long term contract. They don't have to pay him that for several years. Big difference.

Thats another good point.

There is no security in a franchise deal and Deion isn't exactly the most injury free guy ever.

NM

BlackNGold203
09-01-2006, 07:52 PM
Yeah, but that isn't a long term contract. They don't have to pay him that for several years. Big difference.

good call HW..thats a one year deal...:dang:

LambertIsGod58
09-01-2006, 07:52 PM
I don't think Branch is worth ONE first round pick...he hasn't be consistently good for long enough. Although he is worth alot more than the $1 million he's getting for his last year. He should have taken the Pats offer for the 3 or 5 yr deal.

hardwork
09-01-2006, 07:59 PM
They filed a grievance because they have no more moves to make. For the Patriots its checkmate, games over. Now, if Branch wants to sit out he'll owe the team more then the Patriots owe him. And then they can turn around and franchise him with his own money.

SteelersFire
09-01-2006, 08:01 PM
Gee. Shouldn't ethics always come into play? Whether it's currently "socially acceptable" or not? I mean I know that it makes little difference to the bottom line with the money these players earn, or the profit these owners earn. But does that make it ok to screw a player out of the play time and recogition he believes he's earned? It's obviously not about the money ... it's about name recognition and play time. Isn't it? Likewise, should it be it ok for a player to get on his high horse and demand more than he's worth to the team? The bottom line is, after all, the team.

I don't know. I'm not well versed in this stuff. It just seems to me that any player in any professional sport can weight his own worth against his counterpart. Isn't that what America is all about? Supply, demand and capitalism? Free country and all that?

When you and I think about it, who's worth that many millions every year to do anything anyway?

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 08:25 PM
Gee. Shouldn't ethics always come into play? Whether it's currently "socially acceptable" or not? I mean I know that it makes little difference to the bottom line with the money these players earn, or the profit these owners earn. But does that make it ok to screw a player out of the play time and recogition he believes he's earned? It's obviously not about the money ... it's about name recognition and play time. Isn't it? Likewise, should it be it ok for a player to get on his high horse and demand more than he's worth to the team? The bottom line is, after all, the team.

I don't know. I'm not well versed in this stuff. It just seems to me that any player in any professional sport can weight his own worth against his counterpart. Isn't that what America is all about? Supply, demand and capitalism? Free country and all that?

When you and I think about it, who's worth that many millions every year to do anything anyway?

I think you'll find the worlds of the 'free market' and ethics rarely collide.

For me, its all about the team - the players who are pulling to make my team a better team will have my loyalty.

The ones who can't see past their own over inflated ego come a distant second.

Its always hard to identify with the money these players earn - it is pure market forces that dictate they get paid such fantastic amounts of money.

NM

tony hipchest
09-01-2006, 08:43 PM
so the patriots want the #3-7 pick AND #35- 38 from the jets next year for someone who is injury prone and best #'s is 900 yds? LMAO! dem pats are crazy and desperate to not give him up! (the jets are crazy to offer so much $$$) after the seahawks guffaw of signing n. burleson for so much dough, who knows what the hell they are thinking. (still trying to make up for losing hutchinson and not using the tag on him)

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 08:47 PM
so the patriots want the #3-7 pick AND #35- 38 from the jets next year for someone who is injury prone and best #'s is 900 yds? LMAO! dem pats are crazy and desperate to not give him up! (the jets are crazy to offer so much $$$) after the seahawks guffaw of signing n. burleson for so much dough, who knows what the hell they are thinking. (still trying to make up for losing hutchinson and not using the tag on him)


I really think that was an opening gambit in a haggling process.

Of course, its still all conjecture at this point - so far as I am aware no-one outside the immediate parties involved knows exactly what was demanded and what was offered.

NM

hardwork
09-01-2006, 09:01 PM
I really think that was an opening gambit in a haggling process.

Of course, its still all conjecture at this point - so far as I am aware no-one outside the immediate parties involved knows exactly what was demanded and what was offered.

NM


I just don't know why you bother, LITP. That poster couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag. If you keep posting to him he's going to think he has something to say.

tony hipchest
09-01-2006, 09:04 PM
I really think that was an opening gambit in a haggling process.

Of course, its still all conjecture at this point - so far as I am aware no-one outside the immediate parties involved knows exactly what was demanded and what was offered.

NMwell anyone but hardwork can distinctly figure that there will be a huge difference between the seahawks #1 pick next year and the jets #1.

seattles #1 might as well be looked at as the jets #2.

(hardwork: i dont expect you to understand this)

tony hipchest
09-01-2006, 09:09 PM
I just don't know why you bother, LITP. That poster couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag. If you keep posting to him he's going to think he has something to say.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have no evidence of this, nor any inside information, but I'm getting the feeling that Branch is gone.

Yesterday I heard two things that concern me. One, that Branch has been shooting for free agency all along. Two, some one who's opinion I respect said he felt that Branch was not coming back to the Patriots.

I don't how he can do it though. He can't sit out the year it would cost him too much. And the Patriots aren't going to just let him walk without getting something for him."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LMAO! :rofl:

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 09:47 PM
I just don't know why you bother, LITP. That poster couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag. If you keep posting to him he's going to think he has something to say.

Im just trying to keep it civil.

Hopefully there will be a bit of a break from the mudslinging from the last couple of days - it really gets in the way of posting about football - which is what I am here for.

NM

Livinginthe past
09-01-2006, 09:50 PM
well anyone but hardwork can distinctly figure that there will be a huge difference between the seahawks #1 pick next year and the jets #1.

seattles #1 might as well be looked at as the jets #2.



Thats a fair point.

I heard rumors that the Hawks dropped out of the running for Branch anyway - in fact thir whole involvement seemed a little 'off' to be honest.

They have a very capable WR corps as it is.

I think Branch is worth a mid-1st rounder - WR's are notoriously difficult to draft and you know exactly what you are getting with this guy.

NM

tony hipchest
09-01-2006, 10:32 PM
Thats a fair point.

I heard rumors that the Hawks dropped out of the running for Branch anyway - in fact thir whole involvement seemed a little 'off' to be honest.

They have a very capable WR corps as it is.

I think Branch is worth a mid-1st rounder - WR's are notoriously difficult to draft and you know exactly what you are getting with this guy.

NM 900 yds/5tds and several games missed due to injuries.

i know you and hardwork like to pretend i dont know nothing about football :chuckle: but how do you expect branch to get a mid 1st rounder when the likes of d. culpepper, e. james, and s. alexander cant even get that? (let alone a 2nd-miami should be between 20-25)?

Livinginthe past
09-02-2006, 06:53 AM
900 yds/5tds and several games missed due to injuries.

i know you and hardwork like to pretend i dont know nothing about football :chuckle: but how do you expect branch to get a mid 1st rounder when the likes of d. culpepper, e. james, and s. alexander cant even get that? (let alone a 2nd-miami should be between 20-25)?

Ok.

1. Deion Branch is a wide receiver, which as I say, is the one of the most high risk positions to draft - teams feel alot more confident drafting running backs.

2. Common wisdom is that Culpepper, Edge, and Alexander all play(ed) in situations that are very favorable to them.

3.Deion Branch plays in an offense that is thought to have a negative impact on his stats.

4.Culpepper played with one of the best WR's in the NFL in Moss which is thought to have boosted his stats.

5.Culpepper is also recovering from a fairly serious injury.

6.Edge has played with one of the most explosive (regular season) offensive machines in the league all of his career and also has injury question marks.

7.Alexander, whilst a talented runner, is thought to benefit from one of the strongest O-Lines ever.

8. It is a known fact that RB's dont last too much past their 5th/6th year, and certainly notice a drop off in their production from this point - Edge and Alexander with be entering their 6th and 7th years respectively.

9. Wide receivers on the other hand not only benefit from less wear and tear through playing a less physical position - but they are only thought to reach their footballing peak after 3 full seasons in the NFL.

Deion Branch has completed 4 seasons, and has just had his best season, statistically.

NM

tony hipchest
09-03-2006, 04:05 AM
a valiant effort :rolleyes: but let me shoot it down real quick.
Ok.NM

1. Deion Branch is a wide receiver, which as I say, is the one of the most high risk positions to draft - teams feel alot more confident drafting running backs.

what you say, and what is reality are to completely different things (think of the word "opinion")

2. Common wisdom is that Culpepper, Edge, and Alexander all play(ed) in situations that are very favorable to them.

and d. branch doesnt?

3.Deion Branch plays in an offense that is thought to have a negative impact on his stats.

some would contend his stats wouldnt be nearly as great without brady throwing him the ball

ts.4.Culpepper played with one of the best WR's in the NFL in Moss which is thought to have boosted his stats.

and branch plays with one of the best qb's in the nfl in brady which is thought to have boosted his stats. your point?

5.Culpepper is also recovering from a fairly serious injury.

so? culpepper is not injury prone like branch is. ben and carson are also recovering from serious injury. that hasnt impacted the amount they get paid or their market value if they were to be traded, especially looking at the way they have preformed thus far. pep has looked great off of his injury.

6.Edge has played with one of the most explosive (regular season) offensive machines in the league all of his career and also has injury question marks.

replace "edge" with "branch" and the same holds true, except branch has had subpar regular season stats vs. james's league leading regular season stats.

7.Alexander, whilst a talented runner, is thought to benefit from one of the strongest O-Lines ever.

strongest o-lines ever?:sofunny: dont be foolish. isnt branch mistakingly thought to benefit from one of the greatest qb's ever? yes. has, or will, d. branch ever score 28 td's and rack up 1800 yds? NO!

8. It is a known fact that RB's dont last too much past their 5th/6th year, and certainly notice a drop off in their production from this point - Edge and Alexander with be entering their 6th and 7th years respectively.

it is a known fact that the average nfl players career only lasts for 3 years. you are confusing edge and alexander with winslow oliver, greg hill, and c. fuamatu-ma'afala. i will sit and wait and laugh as you anticipate edge's and alexanders careers to abruptly come to an end.

9. Wide receivers on the other hand not only benefit from less wear and tear through playing a less physical position - but they are only thought to reach their footballing peak after 3 full seasons in the NFL.

so when does branch reach his peak? youre saying someone who may touch the ball 6 times a game on a good day is as valuable as someone who touches the ball 20- 50 times a game (edge and alexander can be expected to have 20 carries a game and d. culpepper will take the snap from under center atleast 50 times in any given game).

youre ignoring the pure economics of it. theres a reason that qb's make $10+ millions a year (carson is due $24 million this year) and the elite receivers will never approach that amount.

there is a pecking order in the nfl that you may not be too famaliar with. the elite qb's, rb's, lt's, de's will always be paid more (hence the term valued) than an elite wr (something d. branch is not)

Deion Branch has completed 4 seasons, and has just had his best season, statistically.

and what a season it was. 900 yds and 5 td's. pretty paltry for a #1 wr by 31 other teams standards. especially for the $$$$ d. branch is looking for.

im shocked litp. i never thought i would have to school you in such a manner. the fact that anyone could think that d. branch is worth the same amount in trade value as e. james, s. alexander, or d. culpepper is absolutely ludicrous.

keep in mind, before you offer your response, that i dont set the market value, i just actually know it and understand it.

Livinginthe past
09-03-2006, 05:56 AM
1. It is not just my opinion that wide receiver is the single hardest position to draft in the succesfully it is also backed by a facts and statistics.

CHFF wrote a good, fact based article showing exactly how hard it is to find a top drawer receiver in the first round - a place where you would expect to find the elite talent.

No other position has had as many busts as WR.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=776

2. I dont want this thread to dissolve into another petty argument but you were the one who said that Branch has had his stats deliberately 'watered down' by New England offensive strategy - now you are saying that playing in this offense should now be beneficial to Branch's stats - thats a flat out contradiction.

Branch plays on an offense that shares the ball around - this is demonstarted by the fact that Brady therw for a league leading amount of yardage last year and still no receiver gained over 1000 yards.

3. Again, having Brady as a QB is a good thing, but the fact that he is able to share it about so much is, at the end of the day, a bad thing stats wise for a No.1 receiver in that offense.

4. Branch has suffered a number of niggling injuries but nothing too serious, some way removed from Culpeppers injury which would have put his whole career in doubt.
Lets see 'pep' do in the real games before we judge him to be in great shape.

5. Edge has benefitted greatly from being part of an offense that features such a strong WR corps and passing game - he wont see 8-in-the-box very often.

Again, Branch may well be part of an exciting offesne in New England but all that is negated by the fact he doesn't see the ball as much as other No.1 receivers.

Im certainly not ignoring the pure economics of it as you say, the facts remain that Alexander couldnt garner a 3rd round pick and Culpepper was worthy of only a 2nd rounder.

New England has already turned down an offer of a 2nd rounder.

Im not the one who sets the trade values, its the teams in question.

It remains to be seen what the final deal will entail.

What would you suggest will be the final value of Deion Branch in a trade, bearing in mind you say its ludicrous to think of him having a similar value as Alexander who didnt even get offered a 3rd?

NM

SteelShooter
09-03-2006, 10:15 AM
Sounds about right to me, with the exception being if he decides to sit out Reg season on his own, then he blows his own case out of the water with a blatent contract breach.

hardwork
09-03-2006, 01:42 PM
Ok.

1. Deion Branch is a wide receiver, which as I say, is the one of the most high risk positions to draft - teams feel alot more confident drafting running backs.

NM

Of course. Branch is a proven, quality, NFL WR. As you said they are very hard to draft for. I heard Fred Smerlas make that very argument in supporting a no. 1 pick for Branch.

Livinginthe past
09-03-2006, 03:10 PM
Of course. Branch is a proven, quality, NFL WR. As you said they are very hard to draft for. I heard Fred Smerlas make that very argument in supporting a no. 1 pick for Branch.

Yep there definitely is alot of hype surrounding round 1 draft picks - alot of the guys dont make the grade and even then they take a few years to do it.

Branch is proven, relatively young and ready to hit his peak as a receiver.

The latest rumors had the Patriots asking for a 1st and a mid-round, but after signing Doug Gabriel they will probably take a 1st just to be rid of the distraction.

NM

Livinginthe past
09-04-2006, 03:03 PM
Come on then Hipchest,

Im not going to have wait until Deion actually gets traded before you'll give me answer to this question am I?

What would you suggest will be the final value of Deion Branch in a trade, bearing in mind you say its ludicrous to think of him having a similar value as Alexander who didnt even get offered a 3rd?

I'd be interested in the opinion of a guy who, by his own modest admission, 'knows and understands' trade values in the NFL.

Maybe you'd like to revise your opinion that there was no factual basis behind my statement that quality WR's are the most difficult position to draft, if you have the time.

NM

WV-SteelerFan
09-04-2006, 04:38 PM
What it boils down to (IN MY OPINION) is that

1. Branch (or his agent, whoever) "overvalued" himself...
and
2. Branch has to sit out now to "save face"...

But NE made their "offer" of letting him seek a trade to make themselves look good, too. They'll let him seek a trade, but, it sounds as though they're asking such a high price, that they won't have to honor it unless some team is dumb enough to give them what they're asking, if that happens, then bully for NE...lol

I repeat, that is only MY OPINION!

tony hipchest
09-04-2006, 05:59 PM
Come on then Hipchest,

Im not going to have wait until Deion actually gets traded before you'll give me answer to this question am I?



I'd be interested in the opinion of a guy who, by his own modest admission, 'knows and understands' trade values in the NFL.

Maybe you'd like to revise your opinion that there was no factual basis behind my statement that quality WR's are the most difficult position to draft, if you have the time.

NMwow. youre really banking on the pats landing a 1st so you can thumb your nose, beat your chest, and for once claim you were right and i was wrong huh? too bad cause im simply not wrong. im smart enough te realize aj feeley wasnt worth a 2nd round pick when miami traded for him. obviously you must think thats what he was worth cause thats what he got. randy moss was worth a 1st. branch is not. what the jets and seattle have offered is probably more in line but i were a gm i wouldnt do it unless our backs were against the wall or another sb run depended on it.

more proof im not the only one whos got the finger on the pulse of deions worth:

peter king, monday morning qb

3. I think, speaking of the Patriots, the mistake they made in trying to reel Deion Branch back into the fold was giving his agent permission to make a deal with other teams for a week -- when they didn't want to trade him at all. Because the salary cap rose $17 million from '05 to '06, and because so many teams were so flush with salary-cap money (the Jets were $7 million under, Seattle $10 million), the idea of splurging on a good player was appealing.

The Jets and Seahawks each reached deals with Branch for approximately $13 million in guaranteed money and $39 million over six years. In discussions with league sources close to the talks, I heard this weekend that the when both teams made their offers to New England, the Patriots did not counter either one. The Seahawks, my sources say, offered a second-round pick plus a lower pick; the Jets offered a second-rounder. The Patriots never asked for two first-round picks, contrary to what some people have said, and they were never offered a first-rounder. So it will be easy for the Patriots to say in arbitration that they were never offered what they consider to be fair market value for Branch.

It's hard to imagine an arbitrator determining what is fair compensation for Branch; beauty, and value, is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to trading players, and so what Green Bay considers fair for a receiver is not necessarily what New England would consider fair.

One more thing about this story that bugs me. Branch wants to be paid like a No. 1 receiver, which is his right. But he hasn't performed like one -- other than in two magnificent Super Bowls -- in his four years. His average season: 54 catches, 686 yards, 3.5 touchdowns.

When Branch signed his original contract, there were escalators in place to pay him at the level of high-achieving receivers. If he had four 900-yard receiving seasons, he'd have $1.5 million added to his '06 base salary of $545,000. He had one such season, last year, when he gained 998 receiving yards, and thus had $500,000 added to his base pay this year, bringing the total to $1.05 million. There would be, in addition, $1.5 million added in total if he had four 1,100-yard seasons. So if he'd performed like a No. 1 all four years, and had in excess of 1,100 yards each season, his base salary this year would have been a respectable (though under-market) $3.55 million.

The bottom line: Even if the Patriots win in arbitration, Branch will be so unhappy that he'll be a divisive force in a harmonious locker room -- if he chooses to go back at all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

p.s. youre a day late and a dollar short on youre recently found facts that drafting a wr is risky in the 1st round. you can find my own bit of research on the matter in the draft forum dated the week before this years draft. there was also a great piece written shortly afterwords by john clayton that supported my stance.

tony hipchest
09-04-2006, 06:06 PM
p.s. youre a day late and a dollar short on youre recently found facts that drafting a wr is risky in the 1st round. you can find my own bit of research on the matter in the draft forum dated the week before this years draft. there was also a great piece written shortly afterwords by john clayton that supported my stance. WR? do you really want one in the 1st round?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

heres the wr's taken in the 1st rounds between 93-03 in the order they were picked. i only went up to 03 cause rookie wr usually need 3 years before theyre worth a crap anyways. this list of 42 wr pretty much looks like a list of whos who amongst wr busts. take out moulds, moss, harrison, galloway, glenn, keyshawn, plex, s. moss, j. walker and a johnson. (the 25% of 1st rounders turned out to be anything). only 1 year was their a better than 50% success rate- 96. i really liked the 97 draftclass, where teams batted .000. (steelers themselves have drafted 3 during this period and onl one really panned out and that was plex. hes gone and was never the leading wr. this says alot.

93
c. conway
s. dawkins
oj mcduffie

94
charles johnson
j. morton
tomas lewis
derrick alexander

95
m. westbrook
j. galloway
jj stokes

96
keyshawn
t. glenn
e. kennison
m. harrisson
e. moulds

97
i. hilliard
yatil green
reidel anthony
rae carruth

98
k dyson
r moss
m. nash

99
holt
boston
edwards

00
p. warrick
plaxico
travis taylor
sylvester morris
rj soward

01
d. terrell
k. robinson
r. gardner
s. moss
f. mitchell
r. wayne

02
donte stallworth
a. lelie
j walker

03
c. rogers
a. johnson
bryant johnson

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'll leave it to you to prove that qb's and rb's drafted in the 1st round have a much higher success rate. in the meantime it still wont show that branch is worth a 1st round draft pick. then again keyshawn wasnt worth what he got from the bucs.

Livinginthe past
09-04-2006, 06:47 PM
Well thanks for the information.

My whole point is that WR is the toughest positon to draft - the fact that there are so many busts in the 1st round confirms - which is kinda what your post re-confirms.

Im not really a day late or a dollar short, when you consider that your last post backs my position, not yours.

Anyway, to the meat and potatoes.

Im going to have to ask you that question again.

What would you suggest will be the final value of Deion Branch in a trade, bearing in mind you say its ludicrous to think of him having a similar value as Alexander who didnt even get offered a 3rd?

You say Branch is not even in the same ball park as Alexander who couldnt even fetch a 3rd - that leads me to believe that you think the Patriots will gain less than a 3rd rounder for him.

What value draft pick will they get for him?

I surely hope you aren't going to reverse out of this one by claiming that you know more about trade value than a couple of succesful FO's if he does get higher than a 3rd.

NM

tony hipchest
09-04-2006, 07:16 PM
Well thanks for the information.

My whole point is that WR is the toughest positon to draft - the fact that there are so many busts in the 1st round confirms - which is kinda what your post re-confirms.

Im not really a day late or a dollar short, when you consider that your last post backs my position, not yours.

Anyway, to the meat and potatoes.

Im going to have to ask you that question again.



You say Branch is not even in the same ball park as Alexander who couldnt even fetch a 3rd - that leads me to believe that you think the Patriots will gain less than a 3rd rounder for him.

What value draft pick will they get for him?

I surely hope you aren't going to reverse out of this one by claiming that you know more about trade value than a couple of succesful FO's if he does get higher than a 3rd.

NMreading comprehension can be your friend. see post #46. read it and re read it. there is one major flaw in your argument and something you simply arent seeing. you are trying to twist my words to have a moral victory from the severe mb debate beating you have suffered the past few days.

my premise is that d. branch isnt as valuable a player as s. alexander. a simple examination of their production and price on the open market will prove this. i have ALREADY proved this. you wanna attribute what draft pick someone (like the jets *snicker*) is willing to give up to define a certain players value ignoring that a main reason s. alexander wasnt traded for wasnt because he wasnt worth it but very few teams could afford to make him the HIGHEST paid rb in the game. the cap room wasnt there or the need wasnt there. ist was a matter of current economics and need. not players contributions, on field potential, or monetary earning potential.

dont get the 2 confused.

tony hipchest
09-04-2006, 07:20 PM
oops. i forgot to re-illustrate the flaw in litp's logic (i suggest a simple college course in logic and critical thinking for him)

just cause aj feeley landed a 2nd round pick in a trade doesnt mean he is more valuable than s. alexander. anyone but litp can clearly see this.

simple

hardwork
09-04-2006, 10:28 PM
"peter king, monday morning qb


It's hard to imagine an arbitrator determining what is fair compensation for Branch; beauty, and value, is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to trading players..."

This is the problem with this sort of thing. Plus, Branch's agent has only lost once in arbitration. He's one of the best.

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 11:28 AM
http://nfl.com/news/story/9638711
2. THE BRANCH SITUATION
Deion Branch has been fined all summer to the tune of $14,000 a day and has incurred fines upwards of $420,000. Now the regular season is upon us, and if he threatens to hold out until the 10th game and forfeit 10 game checks, which adds up to close to $600,000, then his million-dollar salary is gone. If he returns for the final six games in order to record an accrued season so he can become a free agent in 2007, he faces the reality that the Patriots could slap the franchise tag on him. Branch doesn't seem to hold the cards in this poker game.


Deion Branch may be doing himself more harm than the Patriots with his holdout.
Branch is the No. 1 receiver on a division championship football team and a former Super Bowl MVP. He reportedly was offered a $33 million deal over five years with close to 50 percent of it guaranteed. He wanted more money, and consequently he wants out of New England if they aren't willing to pay. The club gave him the right to seek a trade, and he was unable to come back to the Pats with the compensation the new club would have to surrender for the player.

I asked three front office executives from other clubs what they would want for Deion Branch if he were their property, and all three felt a first-round pick was mandatory, especially at this late date. As one GM said, "There is no way I trade the guy in my division unless I got extra compensation beyond a first and a good player."

My favorite analogy of the situation came from an old school personnel man who said, "I never thought I would live long enough to see a player determine what the appropriate value was for himself to be traded." The third exec said before the Super Bowl in 2005, Branch was playing like a second-round pick: 28 starts in three years, 135 receptions and nine touchdowns. But the Super Bowl and the 2006 production (78 receptions, five touchdowns -- which led the team) upgraded the guy.

My advice to the talented wide receiver is fight battles you can win and be patient when you're in a situation you can't win. Right now you're losing money, damaging your reputation, and you may be a Patriot for another two years before you can hit free agency. Don't blame the Patriots for asking for what they think they deserve, but ask why no team has offered what the Pats want to trade you.



litp- note the subtle differences in what gm's would offer for a player and what they would want in compensation in the same deal. right now it is not a buyers market, (especially when its so late in the game when some feel the asking price should go up on that fact alone). my point still stands.

Livinginthe past
09-05-2006, 02:39 PM
Save the school yard banter that is obviously a disguise for the fact you aren't willing to take a shot at answering this question.

What would you suggest will be the final value of Deion Branch in a trade, bearing in mind you say its ludicrous to think of him having a similar value as Alexander who didnt even get offered a 3rd?

Its ironic that you are forever accusing me of avoiding and spinning - when you refuse to answer what is a pretty simple question.

NM

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Save the school yard banter that is obviously a disguise for the fact you aren't willing to take a shot at answering this question.



Its ironic that you are forever accusing me of avoiding and spinning - when you refuse to answer what is a pretty simple question.

NM:sofunny: not only did i already answer this stupid question (which is purely a diversionary tactict to deflect that you have been soundly beaten in this "debate"), i even offered up where to find it in a subsequent post.

reading comprehension my friend :chuckle: (once again)

"what the jets and seattle have offered is probably more in line but i were a gm i wouldnt do it unless our backs were against the wall or another sb run depended on it."

hence: for 2 teams who were desperate. ive already shown how the amount of variables that come into making a trade like this are too complex for you to understand. if this were a draft day trade, id say no higher than the 50th pick and probably no lower than 1st pick of the 3rd round. many teams as you will find out (like the steelers) will just as soon hold on to their own pick and draft someone like hines ward or willie reid, you know, someone who hasnt reached the threshold of their upside, rather than pay a huge signing bonus and strap their cap for someone who has.

btw, did you ever answer the question of how branch is more valuable than culpepper, james, and alexander? that is the stance youre taking right? or did you forget? or did you just hope anyone reading this would forget?

deflection, diversion, spin. rinse, lather, repeat.

Livinginthe past
09-05-2006, 03:27 PM
:sofunny: not only did i already answer this stupid question (which is purely a diversionary tactict to deflect that you have been soundly beaten in this "debate"), i even offered up where to find it in a subsequent post.

reading comprehension my friend :chuckle: (once again)

"what the jets and seattle have offered is probably more in line but i were a gm i wouldnt do it unless our backs were against the wall or another sb run depended on it."

hence: for 2 teams who were desperate. ive already shown how the amount of variables that come into making a trade like this are too complex for you to understand. if this were a draft day trade, id say no higher than the 50th pick and probably no lower than 1st pick of the 3rd round. many teams as you will find out (like the steelers) will just as soon hold on to their own pick and draft someone like hines ward or willie reid, you know, someone who hasnt reached the threshold of their upside, rather than pay a huge signing bonus and strap their cap for someone who has.

btw, did you ever answer the question of how branch is more valuable than culpepper, james, and alexander? that is the stance youre taking right? or did you forget? or did you just hope anyone reading this would forget?

deflection, diversion, spin. rinse, lather, repeat.

This isn't a draft day trade Tony.

Answer the question.

NM

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 03:41 PM
This isn't a draft day trade Tony.

Answer the question.

NM :rofl: !!!!!!!

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 03:43 PM
Of course, its still all conjecture at this point - so far as I am aware no-one outside the immediate parties involved knows exactly what was demanded and what was offered.

NMWRONG! i knew! :sofunny:

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 03:50 PM
900 yds/5tds and several games missed due to injuries.

i know you and hardwork like to pretend i dont know nothing about football :chuckle: but how do you expect branch to get a mid 1st rounder when the likes of d. culpepper, e. james, and s. alexander cant even get that? (let alone a 2nd-miami should be between 20-25)? lets revisit this post.

show me again where i said this:

"What would you suggest will be the final value of Deion Branch in a trade, bearing in mind you say its ludicrous to think of him having a similar value as Alexander who didnt even get offered a 3rd?"


lather, rinse, repeat. good luck getting that 1st rounder from the jets next year. you can draft brady quinn.

SteelerFanInCA
09-05-2006, 04:02 PM
http://nfl.com/news/story/9638711


Deion Branch may be doing himself more harm than the Patriots with his holdout.
Branch is the No. 1 receiver on a division championship football team and a former Super Bowl MVP. He reportedly was offered a $33 million deal over five years with close to 50 percent of it guaranteed.





33 Million for 5 years and he says no? Are you kidding me? Where do I sign?

Livinginthe past
09-05-2006, 04:16 PM
Yes them smilies sure are great fun.

I wont trouble you with anymore with football talk Tony.

NM

tony hipchest
09-05-2006, 04:58 PM
you mean youre not gonna take the time to answer this question?

btw, did you ever answer the question of how branch is more valuable than culpepper, james, and alexander? that is the stance youre taking right? or did you forget? or did you just hope anyone reading this would forget?

sorry i stumped you with a rather complex answer to a simplistic question. i gave you a realistic answer, now let me give you a truthful answer. d. branch isnt worth squat to me or the steelers. obviously hes not worth as much as santanio holmes.

right????

MattsMe
09-05-2006, 10:45 PM
deflection, diversion, spin. rinse, lather, repeat.

You forgot distort. :sofunny:

hardwork
09-06-2006, 03:10 PM
Branch, Patriots scrimmage over jurisdiction
By Ron Borges, Globe Staff ?|? September 6, 2006

Disputes have broken out between the sides in the Deion Branch-Patriots grievance case even before the arguments have been heard.

Representatives of the Patriots, the NFL Players Association, and Branch will take part in a conference call this evening with arbitrator John Feerick of Fordham Law School not to argue the merits of Branch's grievance claiming the Patriots violated a verbal agreement to accept a reasonable trade offer for Branch after granting him permission to seek such a trade, but on whether Feerick has the jurisdiction to rule on that in the first place.

The Patriots and the league filed a motion contending that Feerick has no jurisdiction over Branch's non-injury grievance because there is no issue to be decided by him under the rules established in the collective bargaining agreement. The union, arguing for Branch, insisted an arbitrator has jurisdiction over ``the broken promise to trade him."

The Patriots countered that there is no such issue, but if there were, it should go directly to the special master, Steven Burbank of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, who under the CBA has sole jurisdiction to decide non-injury cases involving an issue of whether or not a team negotiated a contract in good faith.

The union claimed this was not an issue of negotiating in good faith, but a question of whether the team broke an oral agreement by not accepting reasonable compensation in the form of a second-round draft choice offered by the Jets. The issue of what ``reasonable compensation" means is one Feerick might well have to rule on if he agrees with Branch?s argument.

The Patriots think they have the right to determine what reasonable compensation is for one of their players, while the union argues that it should be based on trades involving players with experience and production similar to Branch's.

If Feerick retains jurisdiction in the case, it will be heard Saturday. If he does not, both issues would go immediately to Burbank and very likely would not be argued until late next week.

Feerick's ruling would be binding and could not be appealed by either side. The ruling of the special master can be appealed in federal court.

What all this seems to mean is that, unless an 11th-hour settlement is reached, Branch will not be playing for the Patriots or anyone else for several weeks at best and perhaps not until the 10th week of the season. He must play by that time to receive full credit for a year toward free agency.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2006/09/06/branch_patriots_scrimmage_over_jurisdiction/

tony hipchest
09-06-2006, 03:29 PM
"The Patriots think they have the right to determine what reasonable compensation is for one of their players, while the union argues that it should be based on trades involving players with experience and production similar to Branch's."

this is where irony beats all irony. in order for branch to go out and get more money that he thinks hes worth hes gotta convince the arbitrator that he is not as good as the compensation being asked. pretty contradictory. this dude is twisted.

also: in addition to going to court for arbitration i heard he is gonna sue the patriots for 13 mil in damages (the ammount he wouldve gotten from the jets this year.)

the jets offered their 2nd rounder which was obtained from washington. not their actual 2nd rounder which will likely be the 33rd - 37th pick overall.

tony hipchest
09-21-2006, 11:58 AM
in an interview with pat kirwan, peter ginsberg (d. branch's personal attorney) reveals that the patriots were willing to give branch the money he asked for. however, in an effort to save face, the pats demanded that branch fire his long time agent. thumbing his nose at this unethical business tactic, and showing loyalty to his longtime business partner, he refused.

i guess loyalty still counts for something.