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tony hipchest
10-04-2006, 12:57 PM
i havent seen or heard anyone mention this but it just seems too obvious. while it made sense that r. moss would be willing to leave oakland he made it official in a recent foxsports interview where he said theres alot of people not happy there and he would be more than willing to play somewhere else.

everyone knows the pats have talked to the raiders. they couldnt have worked out a trade for d. gabriel otherwise. im sure feelers were put out for players like moss or porter. there were rumors they were interested in lelie. the one thing that has hurt them the most this year has been the lack of a deep threat. in fact, moss is such a deep threat, you have to wonder if brady has the armstrength to keep up. sometimes culpepper didnt. moss would have his most accurate passer since his rookie year where he put up 17 td's.

moss wouldnt be that much more than d. branch's asking price. the money saved by not having vinatieri or branch could probably pay for moss in itself. why would a team that is supposedly committed to fielding a playoff team year after year, stockpile money and risk alienating its star player?

i cant see why the patriots wouldnt try to make this happen. the precedent is there when they moved to acquired c. dillon. the passing game now is almost in the same situation the running game was then.

the question is what would it take to pry moss from al davis's hands?

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

i was beginning to think if the pats receiving game didnt start to pick up like it did against the bengals we could even see a trade this season especially if it continued to get worse.

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-04-2006, 01:01 PM
i havent seen or heard anyone mention this but it just seems too obvious. while it made sense that r. moss would be willing to leave oakland he made it official in a recent foxsports interview where he said theres alot of people not happy there and he would be more than willing to play somewhere else.

everyone knows the pats have talked to the raiders. they couldnt have worked out a trade for d. gabriel otherwise. im sure feelers were put out for players like moss or porter. there were rumors they were interested in lelie. the one thing that has hurt them the most this year has been the lack of a deep threat. in fact, moss is such a deep threat, you have to wonder if brady has the armstrength to keep up. sometimes culpepper didnt. moss would have his most accurate passer since his rookie year where he put up 17 td's.

moss wouldnt be that much more than d. branch's asking price. the money saved by not having vinatieri or branch could probably pay for moss in itself. why would a team that is supposedly committed to fielding a playoff team year after year, stockpile money and risk alienating its star player?

i cant see why the patriots wouldnt try to make this happen. the precedent is there when they moved to acquired c. dillon. the passing game now is almost in the same situation the running game was then.

the question is what would it take to pry moss from al davis's hands?

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

i was beginning to think if the pats receiving game didnt start to pick up like it did against the bengals we could even see a trade this season especially if it continued to get worse.


Wow..that would leave the Raiders admitting that their franchise is falling apart. Gabriel gone...Porter benched.... and Randy traded....I think the Raider fanbase would burn down the stadium!!!!!

tony hipchest
10-04-2006, 01:09 PM
admitting they have a problem is the first step to recovery.

and raiderfans have already proven they will burn down their own neighborhoods so thats nothing new to them. par for the course. moss is the trophy piece of the team so it would take alot to get him. if he were traded though i'd sure like to see him play with b. farve.

Livinginthe past
10-04-2006, 01:17 PM
I wouldn't rule out a move for Moss by the Patriots - but I think he is a long way from the type of player the Patriots can afford on their roster.

Alot was made of Dillons 'character issues' but the guy was willing to take a pay cut to get a ring, which is something I doubt Moss would do.

This subject has been batted around for a few days now on the Patriots forum, but more as a 'fantasy scenario' rather than something that might actually happen.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=42892&page=1

How are the Steelers fixed for salary cap space?

Pittsburgh currently ranks as a bottom 5 team in terms of passing the ball (YPG) despite having a middle rank amount of attempts.

I would say that their need is greater.

NM

HometownGal
10-04-2006, 01:26 PM
I honestly didn't believe that Moss would be happy in Raiderville, but I can almost guarante that the Rooneys/Cowher wouldn't have any interest whatsoever in him because of his attitude issues. Historically, the Steelers have tried to stay away from those types of players and I don't see that changing.

If the Pats are indeed interested in Moss, I would be a little shocked, as (1) Kraft is a cheapo and a miser and (2) the Pats tend to shy away from problem children, as well. I think he'd be a good fit for the Bungles, though - one more huge ego and attitude problem. Their locker room would totally implode. :chicken:

Livinginthe past
10-04-2006, 01:30 PM
I honestly didn't believe that Moss would be happy in Raiderville, but I can almost guarante that the Rooneys/Cowher wouldn't have any interest whatsoever in him because of his attitude issues. Historically, the Steelers have tried to stay away from those types of players and I don't see that changing.

If the Pats are indeed interested in Moss, I would be a little shocked, as (1) Kraft is a cheapo and a miser and (2) the Pats tend to shy away from problem children, as well. I think he'd be a good fit for the Bungles, though - one more huge ego and attitude problem. Their locker room would totally implode. :chicken:

Whereas the Rooneys are second only to Daniel Snyder for splashing the cash on player signings :yawn:

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-04-2006, 01:38 PM
Whereas the Rooneys are second only to Daniel Snyder for splashing the cash on player signings :yawn:

NM

I think that we can all agree that the worst kept secret to both the Steelers and the Patriots success is drafting and trading for cohesion...not for talent alone....Our team-first mentality would NEVER allow a me-first player like Randy...The added benifit of this is that out money is wrapped up in players with some sort of positive locker room influence and not stuck in malcontents like Moss and Owens.

HometownGal
10-04-2006, 01:41 PM
Whereas the Rooneys are second only to Daniel Snyder for splashing the cash on player signings :yawn:

NM

LOL - I'll never argue that the Rooneys are a little tight with the buck, LITP, but the Steelers aren't rumored to be interested in Moss - the Pats ARE. :flap: :wink02:

Livinginthe past
10-04-2006, 01:41 PM
I think that we can all agree that the worst kept secret to both the Steelers and the Patriots success is drafting and trading for cohesion...not for talent alone....Our team-first mentality would NEVER allow a me-first player like Randy...The added benifit of this is that out money is wrapped up in players with some sort of positive locker room influence and not stuck in malcontents like Moss and Owens.

Well said.

For a copycat league its amazing how slow some other franchises are to catch on to this.

What you gain with output from Moss, you would probably lose in other areas he has an negative effect on.

NM

19ward86
10-04-2006, 02:17 PM
moss would love to be on a good team, he can replace deon branch by catching +90 passes a year.

tony hipchest
10-04-2006, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't rule out a move for Moss by the Patriots - but I think he is a long way from the type of player the Patriots can afford on their roster.

Alot was made of Dillons 'character issues' but the guy was willing to take a pay cut to get a ring, which is something I doubt Moss would do.

This subject has been batted around for a few days now on the Patriots forum, but more as a 'fantasy scenario' rather than something that might actually happen.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=42892&page=1

How are the Steelers fixed for salary cap space?

Pittsburgh currently ranks as a bottom 5 team in terms of passing the ball (YPG) despite having a middle rank amount of attempts.

I would say that their need is greater.

NMthe steelers need another wr like they need another hole in the head. they led the league in ypa last year with a devised scheme of not needing to pass 30 times a game. plus they couldnt afford moss with current contracts of ben and polamalu that need extended.

so...they dont have the need, money, or the trade bait that the pats have. if you cant see the pats need for a deep threat, or the fact that moss would be an upgrade i dont know whats wrong with you. unless you think pointing out an area of need widely accepted by pundits and analysts all over is a slam. while brady is throwing the ball and doing ok spreading it around, a significantly lower % is going to the wr's.

what do you have to suggest moss wouldnt take the 7 million or so a year the pats were willing to give branch? like i said the moss and dillon situation are almost mirror images.

sumo
10-04-2006, 03:19 PM
i havent seen or heard anyone mention this but it just seems too obvious. while it made sense that r. moss would be willing to leave oakland he made it official in a recent foxsports interview where he said theres alot of people not happy there and he would be more than willing to play somewhere else.

everyone knows the pats have talked to the raiders. they couldnt have worked out a trade for d. gabriel otherwise. im sure feelers were put out for players like moss or porter. there were rumors they were interested in lelie. the one thing that has hurt them the most this year has been the lack of a deep threat. in fact, moss is such a deep threat, you have to wonder if brady has the armstrength to keep up. sometimes culpepper didnt. moss would have his most accurate passer since his rookie year where he put up 17 td's.

moss wouldnt be that much more than d. branch's asking price. the money saved by not having vinatieri or branch could probably pay for moss in itself. why would a team that is supposedly committed to fielding a playoff team year after year, stockpile money and risk alienating its star player?

i cant see why the patriots wouldnt try to make this happen. the precedent is there when they moved to acquired c. dillon. the passing game now is almost in the same situation the running game was then.

the question is what would it take to pry moss from al davis's hands?

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

i was beginning to think if the pats receiving game didnt start to pick up like it did against the bengals we could even see a trade this season especially if it continued to get worse.

Won't Moss upset/violate the whole Belichick "team" thing he has going on...

tony hipchest
10-04-2006, 03:39 PM
Pittsburgh currently ranks as a bottom 5 team in terms of passing the ball (YPG) despite having a middle rank amount of attempts.

I would say that their need is greater.


just to expand on this point the pats wr's have 33 catches for 396 yards and 4 td's through 4 games. thats 99 yards and 1 td/ game

steelers? 24catches 307 yards and 2 td's. about 102 ypg. both sets of wr get about 8 catches a game. if roethlisberger and the steelers led the league in passing last year i'd be a little concerned. the pats wr's are looking very steeleresque. are any of their wr's injured? i know s. smith and d. stallworth havent quite been the same with their hamstring injury. im expecting ward to pick it up with 2 weeks of rest and a full month of practice.

i know the answer is ben watson is like a receiver and they have a strong running game and that is great, especially if you wanna have a team like the falcons, chiefs or chargers. but ben watson better step it up with his 3 reception and less than 50 yard per game average. not very gates, gonzalez, or crumpler like.

tony hipchest
10-04-2006, 03:43 PM
Won't Moss upset/violate the whole Belichick "team" thing he has going on...by doing what? i guess if he wanted to he could but why would he want to? the same questions were asked about bringing malcontent dillon in. word is moss has been a good teammate in oakland. you hear nothing worse from him these days than you did from dillon in his latter days with the bengals.

sumo
10-04-2006, 04:23 PM
by doing what? i guess if he wanted to he could but why would he want to? the same questions were asked about bringing malcontent dillon in. word is moss has been a good teammate in oakland. you hear nothing worse from him these days than you did from dillon in his latter days with the bengals.

I have always liked Moss -- even when he was mooning Lambeau Field ....I have a little different point of view -- IMHO, I will always take good players no matter what baggage (unless it's legal troubles that would effect playing time) they bring because it only matters to me what they do on the field -- TO can attempt suicide every week as long as he shows for practice and performs -- you make a good point with the Dillon comment ...I would take Moss on the Steelers as a perfect compliment to Ward also -- a good player is a good player is a good player -- IMHO

Livinginthe past
10-04-2006, 04:34 PM
the steelers need another wr like they need another hole in the head. they led the league in ypa last year with a devised scheme of not needing to pass 30 times a game. plus they couldnt afford moss with current contracts of ben and polamalu that need extended.

They could start by getting rid of Wilson and Washington.

Wilson is a No.2 receiver in name for the Steelers yet he has only ever caught more than 35 balls once in his career - and that was for the 49ers.

Last year with the Steelers he managed 26.

so...they dont have the need, money, or the trade bait that the pats have. if you cant see the pats need for a deep threat, or the fact that moss would be an upgrade i dont know whats wrong with you.

So the Patriots need a 'deep threat' but the Steelers dont?

Who has been the deep threat this year for the Steelers?

Wilson maybe?

Who averages 1 catch a game?

As for upgrades - Moss is better than anything the Steelers or patriots have on their roster in terms of talent - that cannot be disputed.

unless you think pointing out an area of need widely accepted by pundits and analysts all over is a slam

I've heard alot of 'pundits' tell everyone who'd listen that the Patriots are done, that they have made one cheapskate move too many - then I look at them back pedal after we dismantle the 'No.1' team in the AFC.

. while brady is throwing the ball and doing ok spreading it around, a significantly lower % is going to the wr's.

A lower % is going to the WR's because they, unlike Corey Dillon,Kevin Faulk, Ben Watson and Daniel Graham are mostly new to the Patriots scheme this year.

I expect Caldwell and Gabriel to start for us this week - they have barely started a game for the Patriots.

what do you have to suggest moss wouldnt take the 7 million or so a year the pats were willing to give branch? like i said the moss and dillon situation are almost mirror images.

Corey Dillon was a calculated gamble by the Patriots after some pretty tough interviews - I can't say for sure that Moss wouldn't react the same as he has but I would think it unlikely - Dillon always gave 100% on the field.

Last year was mostly an anomaly regarding the amount of attempts Brady had - we had guys off the street starting at RB at certain stages of the season, and due to our injury list on D we were chasing alot of games.

This year figures to be different, I expect the patriots to keep the ball on the ground out of choice, not necessity.

We have one of the best RB combo's in the league - why would we be airing out long bombs - even last year we didnt hit a massive amount of deep throws.

NM

hardwork
10-04-2006, 05:18 PM
in fact, moss is such a deep threat, you have to wonder if brady has the armstrength to keep up.

Yeah, that would be the stopper, otherwise they'd do it in a heartbeat. Say, maybe we could trade Brady to Okland and have Troy Brown play QB for us.

tony hipchest
10-05-2006, 09:03 AM
They could start by getting rid of Wilson and Washington.

Wilson is a No.2 receiver in name for the Steelers yet he has only ever caught more than 35 balls once in his career - and that was for the 49ers.

Last year with the Steelers he managed 26.



So the Patriots need a 'deep threat' but the Steelers dont?

Who has been the deep threat this year for the Steelers?

Wilson maybe?

Who averages 1 catch a game?

As for upgrades - Moss is better than anything the Steelers or patriots have on their roster in terms of talent - that cannot be disputed.



I've heard alot of 'pundits' tell everyone who'd listen that the Patriots are done, that they have made one cheapskate move too many - then I look at them back pedal after we dismantle the 'No.1' team in the AFC.

.

A lower % is going to the WR's because they, unlike Corey Dillon,Kevin Faulk, Ben Watson and Daniel Graham are mostly new to the Patriots scheme this year.

I expect Caldwell and Gabriel to start for us this week - they have barely started a game for the Patriots.



Corey Dillon was a calculated gamble by the Patriots after some pretty tough interviews - I can't say for sure that Moss wouldn't react the same as he has but I would think it unlikely - Dillon always gave 100% on the field.

Last year was mostly an anomaly regarding the amount of attempts Brady had - we had guys off the street starting at RB at certain stages of the season, and due to our injury list on D we were chasing alot of games.

This year figures to be different, I expect the patriots to keep the ball on the ground out of choice, not necessity.

We have one of the best RB combo's in the league - why would we be airing out long bombs - even last year we didnt hit a massive amount of deep throws.

NMuhhhm. why do you keep bringing up the steelers in this thread? cant you see the topic is randy moss to the patriots? i have clearly stated that the steelers do not have the NEED (holmes and reid were drafted for their speed and capabilities to get behind the secondary- holmes is new to the team, he will eventually start) the MONEY or the TRADE BAIT. what part about that do you not understand?

the steelers have already had the poor mans randy moss and they couldnt afford him. they won a sb after letting him walk to the giants. if i could trade wilson and washington and have moss accept their $2.something mil in contracts id do it in a heartbeat. but this isnt about the steelers. they havent lost their top wr.

this is about the patriots. when moss says he would be traded you have to realisticly look at the teams that could possibly get it done and the patriots happen to be one of them. what part about that do you not understand?

you are unreal and your reaction is a riot. you trully seem offended at the suggestion that moss would help the patriots. get over it and get a clue.

hardwork
10-05-2006, 12:57 PM
"Who has been the deep threat this year for the Steelers?

Wilson maybe?

Who averages 1 catch a game?

As for upgrades - Moss is better than anything the Steelers or patriots have on their roster in terms of talent - that cannot be disputed."

I agree LITP. Moss would give the Steelers that deep threat and a nice big target for their interception prone QB.

Stillers#1
10-05-2006, 01:45 PM
I, personally, wou dlove to see Moss in a Steelers uniform. He seems to have calmed down quite a bit from his old self. I don't think Wislon is the answer, neither is Holmes. Holmes is not going to turn into a Steve Smith, or Santana Moss type player. I just don't see this happening.

I would say go with Moss for us, he is aging, and you know he wants a ring. Why go with a bunch of "might be's" when they could possbily negotiate an "already is".

TH - I know this thread is about the Pats, but Moss in a Steelers uniform, I think, would be a good thing. We have too much "upside" in our WR's, and not enough output.

Livinginthe past
10-05-2006, 01:51 PM
I agree LITP. Moss would give the Steelers that deep threat and a nice big target for their interception prone QB.

Thanks HW,


You'd think that it would be easy to comprehend that rookie receivers do not, on the whole, contribute too much in their first couple of years.

You'd have to be kinda delirious to say Moss wasn't needed because you have two guys who can barely catch a ball between them, both in their first years - one of them can't even get on the field as a punt returner - I guess thats because they have alot of talent at not fumbling the ball on punt returns!

I wish we woulda picked up that Chad Jackson - he could have developed into a nice deep threat.

Oh well.

NM

tony hipchest
10-05-2006, 01:58 PM
Yeah, that would be the stopper, otherwise they'd do it in a heartbeat.

yeah, i guess i agree. it would kinda be like putting tits on a bull.

HometownGal
10-05-2006, 02:55 PM
Thanks HW,

You'd have to be kinda delirious to say Moss wasn't needed because you have two guys who can barely catch a ball between them, both in their first years - one of them can't even get on the field as a punt returner - I guess thats because they have alot of talent at not fumbling the ball on punt returns!

NM

I think you'd have to be even more delirious to bring a whining, locker room morale busting, spoiled brat primadonna into an organization whose reputation is built on team comradery, high morale and character. Though I would love nothing more for the Steelers to have all of the pieces of the puzzle fitting this season to take a repeat run at the Super Bowl, I am patient enough to wait and watch our young corps of WRs develop properly and come into their own, instead of being pushed into trying to make achievements that they just aren't capable of or ready for in their first season.

tony hipchest
10-05-2006, 03:06 PM
I think you'd have to be even more delirious to bring a whining, locker room morale busting, spoiled brat primadonna into an organization whose reputation is built on team comradery, high morale and character.

see, thats my point. the pats are great with those types of players. it would work for both sides and cure what ails both parties.

silver & black
10-05-2006, 05:22 PM
I would love to trade Moss. What good is he on this Raider team? We have an O line that can't protect the QB (no matter who it is) long enough for Moss to get downfield. He is primarily a deep threat... he is useless to us right now.

By the time we become a decent team again, Moss will be 31-33 years old... past his prime.

The Raiders might as well trade him and get some OL or DL help or, my preference, draft picks.

I have also heard that the Jags were interested.

tony hipchest
10-05-2006, 07:49 PM
I would love to trade Moss. What good is he on this Raider team? We have an O line that can't protect the QB (no matter who it is) long enough for Moss to get downfield. He is primarily a deep threat... he is useless to us right now.

By the time we become a decent team again, Moss will be 31-33 years old... past his prime.

The Raiders might as well trade him and get some OL or DL help or, my preference, draft picks.

I have also heard that the Jags were interested.i guess hes just as useless to the pats. brady could be protected all day but it dont mean much if he cant get tha ball more than 45 yards down field. too bad the steelers dont have millions of $$$ of excess cap space or anyone theyre willing to part with (although they have 3-4 back up linemen who would probably be an upgrade to the raiders: essex, kemoeatu, colon, and okolbi)

3 to be 4
10-05-2006, 08:33 PM
i havent seen or heard anyone mention this but it just seems too obvious. while it made sense that r. moss would be willing to leave oakland he made it official in a recent foxsports interview where he said theres alot of people not happy there and he would be more than willing to play somewhere else.

everyone knows the pats have talked to the raiders. they couldnt have worked out a trade for d. gabriel otherwise. im sure feelers were put out for players like moss or porter. there were rumors they were interested in lelie. the one thing that has hurt them the most this year has been the lack of a deep threat. in fact, moss is such a deep threat, you have to wonder if brady has the armstrength to keep up. sometimes culpepper didnt. moss would have his most accurate passer since his rookie year where he put up 17 td's.

moss wouldnt be that much more than d. branch's asking price. the money saved by not having vinatieri or branch could probably pay for moss in itself. why would a team that is supposedly committed to fielding a playoff team year after year, stockpile money and risk alienating its star player?

i cant see why the patriots wouldnt try to make this happen. the precedent is there when they moved to acquired c. dillon. the passing game now is almost in the same situation the running game was then.

the question is what would it take to pry moss from al davis's hands?

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

i was beginning to think if the pats receiving game didnt start to pick up like it did against the bengals we could even see a trade this season especially if it continued to get worse.

wow.

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

im impressed! that is a heckuva scenario and very doable. the hardest part for me would be giving up on Cassell. im thinking more about Daniel Graham, who's contract is becoming an issue, but is a valuable TE. or, for Moss, i could see the Patriots making it something like Jackson, the 2007 1st rounder, and maybe a 2nd in 2008.

if Moss goes to the Patriots, seeing as for me the key was the development of Jackson, then the Patriots are back on top in 2006 as far as im concerned.

tony hipchest
10-05-2006, 08:47 PM
wow.

the pats 1st round draft pick in 07
m. cassell and
c. jackson?

im impressed! that is a heckuva scenario and very doable. the hardest part for me would be giving up on Cassell. im thinking more about Daniel Graham, who's contract is becoming an issue, but is a valuable TE. or, for Moss, i could see the Patriots making it something like Jackson, the 2007 1st rounder, and maybe a 2nd in 2008.

if Moss goes to the Patriots, seeing as for me the key was the development of Jackson, then the Patriots are back on top in 2006 as far as im concerned.
i think it would give them quite a set of "TRIPLETS". i threw in cassel because he was a low investment for the pats, one of the raiders perceived greatest needs, and someone who the pats will probably never use. ( buy low and sell high- weve seen how voleks trade value has dropped and m. schaubs will probably do the same). the raiders could definitely use d. graham but so can the pats (although with the addition of moss he would be very expendable as would watson probably).

i think if davis was willing to give up his best player he would want somebody who he felt he could possibly be a franchise player. that is what he thought when he traded for moss in the 1st place. while jackson, a first (keep in mind the pats have 2), and a second is fair, i dont think the old man would go for it, (not that im sure hed even go for cassell, jackson and a 1st)

Livinginthe past
10-05-2006, 11:08 PM
I think you'd have to be even more delirious to bring a whining, locker room morale busting, spoiled brat primadonna into an organization whose reputation is built on team comradery, high morale and character. Though I would love nothing more for the Steelers to have all of the pieces of the puzzle fitting this season to take a repeat run at the Super Bowl, I am patient enough to wait and watch our young corps of WRs develop properly and come into their own, instead of being pushed into trying to make achievements that they just aren't capable of or ready for in their first season.

You read my mind.

I think you can apply that scenario to the Patriots aswell, can't you?

NM

hardwork
10-05-2006, 11:55 PM
There we go. See how easy it is when good minds get together.

3 to be 4
10-06-2006, 06:21 AM
i dunno. i think its like adding Dennis Johnson to the Celtics, all the veterans there set the tone, or Sheffield on the Yankees, or as Tony keeps reminding us, Dillon to the Patriots. Bill Belichick knows how to get through to people like Moss. For cry eye, hes close friends with Jim Brown.
i think New England would be the perfect place for Moss. Too many winning personalities on that club for him to be what he was in Minnesota, which also, btw, was the best receiver in the world.
if im the Patriots, i take the chance.

Livinginthe past
10-06-2006, 02:05 PM
i dunno. i think its like adding Dennis Johnson to the Celtics, all the veterans there set the tone, or Sheffield on the Yankees, or as Tony keeps reminding us, Dillon to the Patriots. Bill Belichick knows how to get through to people like Moss. For cry eye, hes close friends with Jim Brown.
i think New England would be the perfect place for Moss. Too many winning personalities on that club for him to be what he was in Minnesota, which also, btw, was the best receiver in the world.
if im the Patriots, i take the chance.

Who is to say that Dillon is anything like Moss, personality wise?

Sure they have both had their run-ins with management, but I dont remember Corey ever telling anyone who'd listen that he 'didnt care' what was happening with his team.

If anything Dillon cared too much, he was sick of putting up Pro-bowl numbers only for the rest of the team to demonstrate a total disregard for winning games.

From the top down the Bengals were a joke.

Then when things start to pick up, he gets an opportunity to play on a team capable of winning 8 games in a single season instead of spread over 3 seasons he gets usurped by a younger model.

Moss hasn't shown me anything like that degree of passion, just a general apathy.

NM

tony hipchest
10-07-2006, 02:56 PM
You read my mind.

I think you can apply that scenario to the Patriots aswell, can't you?

NMnot when they bring charles rogers in for a look-see. pretty much blows your theory about randy moss, and the pats not needing or wanting a deep threat out of the water. character doesnt seem to be much of an issue.

Corey Dillon was a calculated gamble by the Patriots after some pretty tough interviews - I can't say for sure that Moss wouldn't react the same as he has but I would think it unlikely - Dillon always gave 100% on the field.


pretty tough interviews? as opposed to all other interviews? i gotta call you on this bullshit. ask any bengalfan and im sure they would agree dillon is more of a locker room distraction than moss. if he always gave 100% rudi johnson wouldnt have pushed him out of the job. like i said the situation of bringing in moss would be EXACTLY the same as bringing in dillon. of course you can ignore everything dillon has done in the past cause he is a current pat. if moss became a pat you would forgive all his misgivings just the same.

good luck with rogers.

Livinginthe past
10-07-2006, 03:16 PM
not when they bring charles rogers in for a look-see. pretty much blows your theory about randy moss, and the pats not needing or wanting a deep threat out of the water. character doesnt seem to be much of an issue.

There is a big difference between scouting available players who might be able to fill a need in an emergency and giving up a 1st round pick, our 2nd choice QB and whatever else you had us giving up for Moss.

Its all a question of scale and risk.

There is no risk associate with 'taking a look' at Rogers, just the same as there was 'no risk' with the addition of celebrated fat kid, Johnathan Sullivan, for an unwanted WR.

Giving up your back-up QB and 1st roiund pick - is a big risk.

Im pretty sure you can see that.


pretty tough interviews? as opposed to all other interviews? i gotta call you on this bullshit. ask any bengalfan and im sure they would agree dillon is more of a locker room distraction than moss. if he always gave 100% rudi johnson wouldnt have pushed him out of the job. like i said the situation of bringing in moss would be EXACTLY the same as bringing in dillon. of course you can ignore everything dillon has done in the past cause he is a current pat. if moss became a pat you would forgive all his misgivings just the same.

good luck with rogers.

Ask any Bengals fan?

Sure, that would give me a nice unbiased view on the guy :toofunny: - of course they will say he is a 'distraction' maybe even a cancer.

Go ask a Patriots fan how much of a traitor Vinatieri is, then ask a Colts fan - bet you dont get matching answers!

If Moss became a Patriot I would back him 100% - if the Patriots management give him the ok then that is more than enough for me.

It is, however, my opinion they would not trade for him, and certainly not at the short sighted over zealous trade value you assign him.

maybe im wrong though, you have a real great idea about trade value as you were so desperate to tell us - how'd that Branch trade work out for you?

1st rounder was it?

No, let me guess...you know better than the Patriots and Seahawks (teams that have contested the last 3 SB's) management about a players trade value :wink02:

NM

tony hipchest
10-07-2006, 03:59 PM
sorry but your premise wasnt about "scale and risk". it was about moss disrupting the locker room chemistry of the pats and not giving 100%. but feel free to change your tune.

r. moss > c. rogers or gabriel, caldwell, jackson etc.

how'd that trade work out for the seahawks? they wouldve been better off trading for moss. but then again their mgmt has had a few off season blunders:

not franchising hutchinson
overpaying for burleson
overpaying for branch

anyways the whole premise of this thread is the pats need for a deep threat. one you implied wasnt there. looks like pats management proved you wrong and me right by bringing in rogers. whats new? the best deep threat available is r. moss. the best player who could have the biggest impact in the pats offense is r. moss. the team who has the most to offer is the pats.

i'll just put this lesson on your tab.

It is, however, my opinion they would not trade for him, and certainly not at the short sighted over zealous trade value you assign him.
you dont really think one of the best receivers in the game (and possibly all time) would come cheaper than deion branch did you? lol.

hardwork
10-07-2006, 04:10 PM
sorry

Yes, quite.

Livinginthe past
10-07-2006, 04:16 PM
sorry but your premise wasnt about "scale and risk". it was about moss disrupting the locker room chemistry of the pats and not giving 100%. but feel free to change your tune.

r. moss > c. rogers or gabriel, caldwell, jackson etc.

how'd that trade work out for the seahawks? they wouldve been better off trading for moss. but then again their mgmt has had a few off season blunders:

not franchising hutchinson
overpaying for burleson
overpaying for branch

anyways the whole premise of this thread is the pats need for a deep threat. one you implied wasnt there. looks like pats management proved you wrong and me right by bringing in rogers. whats new? the best deep threat available is r. moss. the best player who could have the biggest impact in the pats offense is r. moss. the team who has the most to offer is the pats.

i'll just put this lesson on your tab.

you dont really think one of the best receivers in the game (and possibly all time) would come cheaper than deion branch did you? lol.

You are going to tell me what my own 'premise' was?

Of course I think that Moss wouldnt be a great addition to 'lockerroom chemistry' and that he doesn't always give 100%.

To clarify further, it would be a huge risk for the Patriots, in my opinion, to trade away their only back-up QB and a 1st rounder to get Moss on board.

You were the one attempting to draw parallels to the Patriots 'looking at' Charles Rogers and signing Moss - I was simply explaining why there is simply no comparison between the two situations.

As for your growing obsession about the Patriots requirement for a 'deep threat' .... I can't understand where you are getting it from.

You are the guy with the tired 'dink and dunk' schtick regarding Brady's successful passing offense - now you are telling us that because we have traded away a guy (who specialised in medium to short routes) we now suddenly have a burning need for a speedy deep threat?

Sorry, thats just illogical.

Sure, we had speedy guys on the roster - Bethel Johnson, Tim Dwight, Andre Davis - and you know how many passes they caught between them last year?

34.

Thats about 11 each - alot less than 1 a game.

So you can see how important the deep ball, and the speedy WR are to Tom Brady.

No, I think we'll stick to WR's who can run solid routes and catch the accurately thrown ball in traffic.

Oh and to return to the Charle Rogers scenario - he is a guy that has come in for a few workouts - more than likely to give us something to work with if we lose a bunch of WR's at a later stage of the season and leave us in an 'emergency' situation.

Its that type of forward planning that makes the Patriots the most successful team in the salary cap era.

NM

hardwork
10-07-2006, 06:37 PM
To clarify further, it would be a huge risk for the Patriots, in my opinion, to trade away their only back-up QB and a 1st rounder to get Moss on board.


NM


It's not even worth a nanosecond of reflection.

tony hipchest
10-07-2006, 08:12 PM
Sure, we had speedy guys on the roster - Bethel Johnson, Tim Dwight, Andre Davis - and you know how many passes they caught between them last year?

34.

Thats about 11 each - alot less than 1 a game.


brady really cant get the ball downfield can he? youre comparing r. moss to those 3? :sofunny: newsflash- moss has more td receptions in his rookie year than those 3 combined. maybe the reason they have 34 catches is because they suck. oh, and theyre all gone now, along with d. givens and d. branch.

charles rogers- lazy, dopehead, backmouths coaches and the team, doesnt give 100%. what were you saying about disrupting locker room chemistry? must suck when your own team proves you wrong.

3 to be 4
10-07-2006, 11:17 PM
have to with Tony on this one, guys. Bethel, Tim, and Andre? compared to Randy Moss?? You dont think Brady would be drooling to have Moss to throw to? And if it ONLY costs a backup QB and a #1 then its a steal.

Livinginthe past
10-07-2006, 11:19 PM
brady really cant get the ball downfield can he? youre comparing r. moss to those 3? :sofunny: newsflash- moss has more td receptions in his rookie year than those 3 combined. maybe the reason they have 34 catches is because they suck. oh, and theyre all gone now, along with d. givens and d. branch.

charles rogers- lazy, dopehead, backmouths coaches and the team, doesnt give 100%. what were you saying about disrupting locker room chemistry? must suck when your own team proves you wrong.

See above.

NM

dropKickMurphy
10-12-2006, 03:06 PM
....Kraft is a cheapo and a miser....

Kraft has invested an enormous amount of his own $$$ into this franchise. That is why the Patriots are ranked as the 2nd most valuable franchise (behind Washington) in the NFL.

Unlike Heinze Field, Gillette was financed ($400 million) entirely with private funds. No taxpayer $$$ went into its construction.

Is that the definition of a miser?

tony hipchest
10-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Kraft has invested an enormous amount of his own $$$ into this franchise. That is why the Patriots are ranked as the 2nd most valuable franchise (behind Washington) in the NFL.

Unlike Heinze Field, Gillette was financed ($400 million) entirely with private funds. No taxpayer $$$ went into its construction.

Is that the definition of a miser?it is if hes just spending all that money to build up a property just as an investment or to sell it for a hefty profit. owners like d. snyder and g steinbrenner easilly spend that ammount of money on PAYROLL in an attempt to field the best team possible. in both cases they are usually maxed out every year. you see they are rich and not interrested in saving a penny or concerned about overpaying a kicker or pitcher.

hardwork
10-13-2006, 01:29 AM
Kraft has invested an enormous amount of his own $$$ into this franchise. That is why the Patriots are ranked as the 2nd most valuable franchise (behind Washington) in the NFL.

Unlike Heinze Field, Gillette was financed ($400 million) entirely with private funds. No taxpayer $$$ went into its construction.

Is that the definition of a miser?


That's right. He's only put up a privately funded stadium, been to 4 SBs, and won three of them. Yeah, a real miser with only himself in mind. The NFL would get down on their knees and beg if it would bring them another owner like Kraft, and a franchise like the Patriots.

tony hipchest
03-05-2007, 06:04 PM
This subject has been batted around for a few days now on the Patriots forum, but more as a 'fantasy scenario' rather than something that might actually happen.



NMstay tuned patfans. john clayton reports belichick LOVES randy moss, and the feelers have already been put out.

and since this never was (and now, most definitely isnt) the case:

We have one of the best RB combo's in the league - why would we be airing out long bombs -

this scenario is much closer to reality than initially thought. moss is a numbers guy though and i still feel he'd do much better with farve in green bay

CantStop85
03-05-2007, 06:20 PM
Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Chad Jackson, Reche Caldwell...certainly an interesting receiving corps.

tony hipchest
03-05-2007, 07:28 PM
this thread was fun:



No, let me guess...you know better than the Patriots and Seahawks (teams that have contested the last 3 SB's) management about a players trade value :wink02:

NM

uhhh... yeah! football isnt quite rocket science, although im pretty good at that too :wink02:



how'd that trade work out for the seahawks? they wouldve been better off trading for moss. but then again their mgmt has had a few off season blunders:

not franchising hutchinson
overpaying for burleson
overpaying for branch

peter king seems to agree (as im sure mike holmgren does too):

e. I can just feel Mike Holmgren fuming. He's thinking: Last year we let Steve Hutchinson go for $7 million a year, and now $7 million is the going rate for a guard who can walk and chew gum at the same time.

f. I mean it: Mike Holmgren is not happy about this.

Livinginthe past
03-06-2007, 01:54 AM
Its hard to say whats going on in Moss's head as regards what he wants from his next team.

Does he value catches/yards/TD's over the chance of getting a ring?

I think he definitely would be happier with the playcalling of the Packers - interceptions dont reflect on a receivers numbers and Brett rarely lets 3/4 interception games make him conservative.

I'd be excited to have Moss on the team, because that would mean the Patriots FO were confident he was the right man - howevere im far from convinced that is the case.

I've read all sorts of crazy stuff on the Patriots board with fans desperate to justify Moss's history - he loves the game, yet takes plays off ...contradictory stuff like that...etc etc

The latest wisdom is that the solid vet presense in the Patriots lockerroom could be enough to make Moss see the error of his ways.

Maybe when Schefter brings something a bit more concrete i'll be excited - he seems to have been spot on so far.

On a related note, i've heard strong rumors (stronger than the Moss ones anyway) that Stallworth is very keen to sign a 1 year deal with the Patriots to show them, and the rest of the league what he can do.

Thats probably contingent on the eagles not re-signing him, who I think are his first choice.


Its one to keep an eye on anyway.

Big D
03-06-2007, 07:33 AM
clayton just said moss isnt going to the patriots. The reason being they just gave up a second and 7th pick for welker.

tony hipchest
03-06-2007, 08:19 AM
clayton just said moss isnt going to the patriots. The reason being they just gave up a second and 7th pick for welker.yeah he said only if the raiders are dumping him for a 3rd. hard to imagine welker worth a 2nd but moss only worth a third. stallworth is due to visit there today, and ive felt all along if the eagles dont keep him he would wind up a pat. latest words are he has a few strikes against him and may be facing some suspension time for smokin the ganga.

hed be the best wr pats have seen since terry glenn. eagles are stupid to let him go (to any team)

Suitanim
03-06-2007, 04:30 PM
Eh, who cares what the Pats do anyways?

Big D
03-06-2007, 04:33 PM
Eh, who cares what the Pats do anyways?

I think we have a mod that's a pats fan. Not sure though

Suitanim
03-06-2007, 04:38 PM
And, as I said before, WHO cares what the Pats do anyways?

fansince'76
03-06-2007, 04:40 PM
I don't - I'm a little weary of hearing about EVERY move their FO makes, personally. But hey, that's just me....

Suitanim
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
It would be nice if...

Oh, never mind. Forget I said a thing...I certainly don't need more infractions.

MACH1
03-06-2007, 05:24 PM
Eh, who cares what the Pats do anyways?

:iagree:

silver & black
03-06-2007, 07:16 PM
I don't care who takes him... somebody just take him... please!

Whoever gets him: Good Luck... you're gonna need it!

tony hipchest
03-06-2007, 07:50 PM
I don't care who takes him... somebody just take him... please!

Whoever gets him: Good Luck... you're gonna need it!what if steelers offered you faneca for moss plus your 2nd round pick?

silver & black
03-07-2007, 06:51 AM
what if steelers offered you faneca for moss plus your 2nd round pick?

I would have to say no. The Raiders need all the picks they can get, its the only way they can rebuild this team. We are in no position to play in the FA market, so draft picks are vital.

I'm so tired of Moss, and all shit that goes with him, that I wouldn't care if we just cut him outright at this point.

silver & black
03-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Check it out. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jeffri_chadiha/03/07/randy.moss/index.html

tony hipchest
04-28-2007, 10:28 AM
the patriots still have a hard on for moss. they offered a 2nd day pick for him but the raiders said no. look for talks to continue throughout the weekend.

ChronoCross
04-28-2007, 10:54 AM
I do not know if the pats will do it, because the Raiders beside a trade, want who ever gets moss to eat over 8mil in cap money. So giving up draft picks plus eating over 8mil, kinda much for a WR who has been a head case.

silver & black
04-29-2007, 10:27 AM
See ya Moss... ya little bitch!

Good luck patsies (not really).

Only worth a 4th round pick! That's really all that needs to be said about the little primadona.

Addition by subtraction... I'm a happy guy today!!!

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 10:39 AM
i woulda been happy if the steelers got him for a 4th. recent workouts confimed his 4.29-4.32 speed.

the good thing for him is the patriots dont care if their players smoke dope. its gotta be a typo, but when espn confirmed the trade they showed that the patriots also get the raiders 1st round pick next year. quite a price to pay to get moss off your hands.

silver & black
04-29-2007, 10:55 AM
i woulda been happy if the steelers got him for a 4th. recent workouts confimed his 4.29-4.32 speed.

the good thing for him is the patriots dont care if their players smoke dope. its gotta be a typo, but when espn confirmed the trade they showed that the patriots also get the raiders 1st round pick next year. quite a price to pay to get moss off your hands.

Thats definitely a typo! All they get is his huge salary and even bigger ego!

I hope he gets snow in his eyes and demands to be traded to Tampa or Miami.

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 10:58 AM
Thats definitely a typo! All they get is his huge salary and even bigger ego!

I hope he gets snow in his eyes and demands to be traded to Tampa or Miami.:sofunny:

thats almost as funny as re-reading this thread. sometimes i miss ol' hardworm. :wave:

MasterOfPuppets
04-29-2007, 01:31 PM
moss can be a great mentor for thier #1 pick...:thumbsup:

fansince'76
04-29-2007, 01:47 PM
Looks like the collective media knob-slobbing of the Patriots over this move is already in full swing with the usual suspects in tow - ESPN and SI, namely. The rest of the league shouldn't even bother to suit up in '07. :rolleyes:

LambertIsGod58
04-29-2007, 03:11 PM
I think NE will be the team to beat in the AFC this year. Look how far they went last year and now all the acquisitions they've made this year. I am a fan of NE because of their committment to win. You never see any free agent signings in Pittsburgh...At least no big ones. Bettis was the last.

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 03:29 PM
I think NE will be the team to beat in the AFC this year. Look how far they went last year and now all the acquisitions they've made this year. I am a fan of NE because of their committment to win. You never see any free agent signings in Pittsburgh...At least no big ones. Bettis was the last.hartings and staley were our last big free agent signings, and even though bettis was acquired in a trade, i see what you are saying.

i think most steelerfans would rather lose with character guys rather than take a risk and win with a few players who arent choir boys.

like it was said thismorning, randy moss is an eccentric front runner. he only plays to the level his team is playing at. if his team is doing well he will, and if his team is sucking, he will suck to. he is not a leader but a "go with the flow" follower. this is no different that the pats bringing in malcontent corey dillon.

BUCKEYE4EVER
04-29-2007, 04:23 PM
Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Chad Jackson, Reche Caldwell...certainly an interesting receiving corps.

Add Dante Stallworth to that list

LambertIsGod58
04-29-2007, 04:28 PM
Possibly the BEST receivng corp in the NFL....

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 04:47 PM
good news for the bungles is that they can have kelly washington back once the pats cut him in camp.

NV STEELERS 723
04-29-2007, 05:49 PM
Hey LITP.....good luck w/ Moss......he's gonna hate that NE cold!

MACH1
04-29-2007, 05:57 PM
Hey LITP.....good luck w/ Moss......he's gonna hate that NE cold!

Nah He just wont play in it.

The Duke
04-29-2007, 06:08 PM
Nah He just wont play in it.

exacly

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 06:24 PM
moss sure didnt mind playing in the green bay cold in january. moss = corey dillon. they will do fine as long as they are leading the league in statistical categories or on a 1 way path deep into the playoffs.

Black@Gold Forever32
04-29-2007, 06:29 PM
I think Randy Moss has to prove to fit into the team first attitude of the Pats first. We all know Tom Brady spreads the ball around. So will Randy throw a fit if one game he only has 3 or 4 catches. When that happens Randy is pretty much worthless and dissappears in games.

As for the trade it was a great move for the Pats since they only gave up a 4th round pick. Just saying Randy Moss really has to prove himself again. Its going to be interesting thats for sure.

The ball is really in Randy Moss's court and its all up to him if he wants to be a special player again.

Livinginthe past
04-29-2007, 08:20 PM
Hey guys,

Had some serious PC problems all today - the cooling fan fell off the main cpu due to a crappy broken plastic clip and i've now got the pc lying on its side so its stops the pc overehating and switching off LOL!

First I heard of this was on espn website on my mobile phone - Like I said all along if the Patriots were prepared to take a gamble on the guy then I was happy with it - very happy actually.

Props to Mr Hipchest for not only calling this one awhile back (I really couldn't see it happening) and sticking with it :cheers:

The conviction of his beliefs...or stubborn as an ass.....who knows? :sofunny:

Brady has consistently elevated the play of a number of who-dats and over-achievers - Gaffney, Caldwell, Givens....maybe even Branch...the list goes on.

Now he gets a chance to throw to some genuine weapons - im very excited and he probably is too.

Maroney will hopefully have a good year with teams not daring to put 8-in-the-box against us like last year - he should get some holes to run into.

If Moss turns out to be of the same caliber of 'lockerroom cancer' as Corey Dillon - i'll be a happy man - Corey was a winner who put his team (Bengals) on his back for long periods while they mostly sucked.

Can I say the same of Moss?

Not really - he threw the towel in at Oakland which is never ideal - but then I guess us regular guys and gals get to leave and find a new job if our current employers prove unbearable.

Two things the two do have in common - they both come from teams that have been mostly awful...really REALLY awful....during their time there - that wont be the case in New England.

I look forward with great interest to see how Moss will restructure his contract - apparently New England is the only team he was willing to do that for.

CantStop85
04-29-2007, 08:22 PM
So Randy Moss, Dante Stallworth, Wes Welker, Chad Jackson, Reche Caldwell, Kelley Washington...do they still have Jabar Gaffney?

It may not be the best; but it is definitely the deepest receiving corps in the NFL.

Livinginthe past
04-29-2007, 08:31 PM
So Randy Moss, Dante Stallworth, Wes Welker, Chad Jackson, Reche Caldwell, Kelley Washington...do they still have Jabar Gaffney?

It may not be the best; but it is definitely the deepest receiving corps in the NFL.

I believe Gaffney is still about - Patriots cap info tells me he is getting paid $600k this year with a similar cap hit.

For my money the Colts still have the best WR combo in the NFL - Wayne and Harrison are electric as long as they both remain healthy.

I don't know how much of this year Chad Jackson will play - I expect him to start the year on PUP.

Ok, looks like Moss was serious about taking a huge pay cut to join the Patriots.

MOSS SIGNS ONE-YEAR DEAL

The New England Patriots got two steals on Sunday. First, they picked up one of the best receivers in the game for only a fourth-round draft pick.

Second, they got him at a bargain-basement contract.

Per a league source, the $21 million in salary over two years under Randy's prior deal was replaced by a one-year contract with a $3.5 million base salary and $1.5 million in incentives.

The only downside for the Patriots is that, if Moss re-establishes himself as a superstar in 2007, they'll have to pay him in 2008, either with a new contract or the franchise tag.

And the deal allows the Pats to evaluate Moss carefully in the offseason, training camp, and preseason. If Moss doesn't still have it, or if he is in any way a pain in the butt, the Pats lose not a penny.

With Stallworth also on a 1 year deal they get the opportunity to audition two top talents and pick the one they like the best and sign him up next year.

Hines0wnz
04-29-2007, 09:54 PM
I hate to sound cliche but "hand the trophy" to the Patsies unless something radical happens. But seriously a trade like this upsets the parity that has been going on in recent years. The Pats, at least on paper, have a very good chance at erasing the Dolphins' undefeated season record now that Brady has all kinds of weapons at WR. However, having said all that, if they dont win the SB next year then Belichek has truly lost his magic and it will be the sweetest loss I have ever seen that team endure. :wink02:

Oh yeah, Al Davis is for sure the stupidest owner in the league.

WV-SteelerFan
04-29-2007, 10:06 PM
I was watching the draft on the NFL Network, today. I'm sorry, but, is Mike Mayok (sp?) that naive?!?!?! Randy Moss getting traded is a non-story?!?! Is he friggin' nuts?!?!?!

:dang:

Livinginthe past
04-29-2007, 10:17 PM
I hate to sound cliche but "hand the trophy" to the Patsies unless something radical happens. But seriously a trade like this upsets the parity that has been going on in recent years. The Pats, at least on paper, have a very good chance at erasing the Dolphins' undefeated season record now that Brady has all kinds of weapons at WR. However, having said all that, if they dont win the SB next year then Belichek has truly lost his magic and it will be the sweetest loss I have ever seen that team endure. :wink02:

Oh yeah, Al Davis is for sure the stupidest owner in the league.

The way the Steelers and Colts have won the SB's the last two years mean you can never hand the trophy to any team.

The Steelers didn't look like a decent playoff team until they hit them and the Colts had an awful run defense that magically cured itself.

We still have issues, like any other team, we need to get younger at LBer - which is tough when BB wont draft them because they wont be able to pick up the scheme.

Our DB's drop like flies the minute the regular season starts and this is Maroney's first year being 'the man'.

I like our chances this year - Brady should be awesome with this amount of talented help - but when you hit the postseason it really is a case of the cliched but true 'any given sunday'.

tony hipchest
04-29-2007, 11:05 PM
Props to Mr Hipchest for not only calling this one awhile back (I really couldn't see it happening) and sticking with it :cheers:

The conviction of his beliefs...or stubborn as an ass.....who knows? :sofunny:

:chuckle: definitely not stubborness.

well i definitely didnt want to see this happen cause i know it will make the patriots a better team and i always knew they were the team most capable of making it work on their terms.

as a football fan, i woulda much rather seen moss go to the packers with farve, but all the pieces added up to moss being a patriot long ago.

patriots waited for his stock to drop. moss waited to see how close they were to a sb, w/o him or stallworth or any of their other aquisitions. and now he envisions himself as the 1 year savior (t. owens) to lead a team back to the promised land before he cashes in with jerry jones and the cowboys. or perhaps the redskins.

regardless, in 07, moss is better with the pats, and the pats are better off with him. pretty simple, especially when they are throwing around free draftpicks to make it happen.

d. branch who??? lol. that dude is a scrub. nate washington would probably be better there and c. wilson for sure.

83-Steelers-43
04-30-2007, 07:08 AM
IMO, the Patriots are in a win/win situation. The guy is only 30, he restructured his contract and if it doesn't work out they only wasted a 4th round pick on him. I'm not exactly the biggest Randy Moss fan in the world, but maybe now that he has a QB who can actually throw a football he will pipe down and start acting like a 30 year old?

Also, many thought Dillon was going to be a problem child when he first joined that organization. That worked out pretty well for the Pats.

Crushzilla
04-30-2007, 10:03 AM
I try to be an optimist when a new season is coming up...

But the Pats this year have got me worried something fierce.

Tom Brady was shreading passing d's last year (especially Tomlin's) with NO talent at WR. Now the addition of Moss and Stallworth alone... ekk... egads...

I don't know if I can take another ESPN Patriot love fest. I don't get ESPN here... what are they saying about the Patriots this year?

Counselor
04-30-2007, 03:45 PM
Ya know, I agree that on paper the Pats look unstoppable. But I wonder---you've got a lot of new "ego" on that team (albeit ego that generally took a pay cut to come to a potential winner.) It seems like a radical departure from the Pats' usual MO--could it backfire?

No matter, it will be interesting to watch.

silver & black
04-30-2007, 03:53 PM
I hate to sound cliche but "hand the trophy" to the Patsies unless something radical happens. But seriously a trade like this upsets the parity that has been going on in recent years. The Pats, at least on paper, have a very good chance at erasing the Dolphins' undefeated season record now that Brady has all kinds of weapons at WR. However, having said all that, if they dont win the SB next year then Belichek has truly lost his magic and it will be the sweetest loss I have ever seen that team endure. :wink02:

Oh yeah, Al Davis is for sure the stupidest owner in the league.

Ok, you have my attention. I understand Al Davis is not loved throughout the league, but please explain why he is the "stupidest owner in the league". Just to set the record straight... Al Davis does NOT OWN the Raiders... he is the managing general partner.

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 04:00 PM
Ok, you have my attention. I understand Al Davis is not loved throughout the league, but please explain why he is the "stupidest owner in the league". Just to set the record straight... Al Davis does NOT OWN the Raiders... he is the managing general partner.

FWIW I think the Raiders made the only decision they could - Moss clearly only wanted to sign for the Patriots even though GB may have offered better draft pick compensation.

I heard that New England offered a 6th initially and then reached a compromise of a 4th.

If the Oakland D performs aswell this year I think you can add 4 games to the win total - but then alot depends on Kiffin - he looked awfully young and nervous during the draft press conferences.

I think this move is a winner for both teams - simply because Moss will not be productive on that Raiders team.

silver & black
04-30-2007, 04:49 PM
FWIW I think the Raiders made the only decision they could - Moss clearly only wanted to sign for the Patriots even though GB may have offered better draft pick compensation.

I heard that New England offered a 6th initially and then reached a compromise of a 4th.

If the Oakland D performs aswell this year I think you can add 4 games to the win total - but then alot depends on Kiffin - he looked awfully young and nervous during the draft press conferences.

I think this move is a winner for both teams - simply because Moss will not be productive on that Raiders team.

The Raiders did the only thing they could. If every fan of another team would put themselves in our shoes, what would you do?

Randy Moss made it clear that he did not want to play in Oakland. Therefore, he would have been just as unproductive this year as he was last year. He would also have continued to be a cancer in the locker room. A new coach doesn't need that kind of distraction.

He also was getting 9+ million this year.... would any of you pay him that kind of money to disrupt your team while sitting on the bench?

I, and all of Raider Nation realize that a 4th round pick was/is ridiculous for a talent like Moss. Somtimes, you just have to cut your losses and continue on. This was one of those times. If this situation was going on on any of your teams, you would see it differently, I'm sure.

What did the Raiders gain? They gained $8 million in cap room. They can now pay Derrik Burgess and Nnamdi Asomuagh what they are worth. They can start fresh with a great draft, a new coach and coaching staff, without the distraction of the cancer which was Randy Moss. I think the Raiders gained a hell of a lot for a 4th round pick!

I'm sorry it was the Patriots that got him, but, beggars can't be choosers. Moss HAD TO GO! We would have been just as happy to give him to the Steelers, or anyone else... Good riddance!

If everyone is so worried about Moss being in New England and just handing the Lombardi to them... Go out and kick their ass! They aren't unbeatable, no matter what the "experts" say!

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 05:04 PM
The Raiders did the only thing they could. If every fan of another team would put themselves in our shoes, what would you do?

Randy Moss made it clear that he did not want to play in Oakland. Therefore, he would have been just as unproductive this year as he was last year. He would also have continued to be a cancer in the locker room. A new coach doesn't need that kind of distraction.

He also was getting 9+ million this year.... would any of you pay him that kind of money to disrupt your team while sitting on the bench?

I, and all of Raider Nation realize that a 4th round pick was/is ridiculous for a talent like Moss. Somtimes, you just have to cut your losses and continue on. This was one of those times. If this situation was going on on any of your teams, you would see it differently, I'm sure.

What did the Raiders gain? They gained $8 million in cap room. They can now pay Derrik Burgess and Nnamdi Asomuagh what they are worth. They can start fresh with a great draft, a new coach and coaching staff, without the distraction of the cancer which was Randy Moss. I think the Raiders gained a hell of a lot for a 4th round pick!

I'm sorry it was the Patriots that got him, but, beggars can't be choosers. Moss HAD TO GO! We would have been just as happy to give him to the Steelers, or anyone else... Good riddance!

If everyone is so worried about Moss being in New England and just handing the Lombardi to them... Go out and kick their ass! They aren't unbeatable, no matter what the "experts" say!

Im not 100% sure if you know I was agreeing with what the Raiders did?

I certainly wouldn't have kept him if I were in charge of that particular decision.

Preacher
04-30-2007, 05:09 PM
HEY... S&B...

Guess what... Your team may start making some headway...

Now they just have to keep thier owner away from making any personnel decisions for a few years... and you all may be back on track...

And it seems your coach sure pulled a nice draft out of his hat... and a 4th for Moss... hey.. that is like taking some bad tasting medicene to get rid of a cold... it tastes bad for the moment... but tomorrow... you will sure be glad you took it!!!

and who better to give that cold to then the Patriots!!!

HometownGal
04-30-2007, 05:18 PM
This is definitely a win/win for both teams imho. I can't stomach Mandy Ross :wink02: but with Brady throwing the pigskin to him, he is almost certain to return to being the kick-arse wideout he was a few years back with the Vikes, as long as he keeps his yap shut and realizes that the team isn't all about HIM, which I'm sure Belichick will expect......no......demand of him.

The way I look at it, s&b - he's someone else's headache now. :smile:

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 05:37 PM
The Raiders did the only thing they could. If every fan of another team would put themselves in our shoes, what would you do?

Randy Moss made it clear that he did not want to play in Oakland. Therefore, he would have been just as unproductive this year as he was last year. He would also have continued to be a cancer in the locker room.

S&B, you guys did the only thing you COULD do. We had to deal with much the same situation with a poor man's version of Moss 2 offseasons ago, and again, we did the only thing we could do in that situation - cut him loose.

silver & black
04-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Im not 100% sure if you know I was agreeing with what the Raiders did?

I certainly wouldn't have kept him if I were in charge of that particular decision.

I know you were agreeing LITP. I just got some stuff off my chest in that post.:sofunny:

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 05:39 PM
This is definitely a win/win for both teams imho. I can't stomach Mandy Ross :wink02: but with Brady throwing the pigskin to him, he is almost certain to return to being the kick-arse wideout he was a few years back with the Vikes, as long as he keeps his yap shut and realizes that the team isn't all about HIM, which I'm sure Belichick will expect......no......demand of him.

The way I look at it, s&b - he's someone else's headache now. :smile:

Yep, this will be a test for Moss - if he's serious about wanting a ring, that is. No more half-assing it on plays where you're not the primary WR, Randy (among other things).

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 05:49 PM
I know you were agreeing LITP. I just got some stuff off my chest in that post.:sofunny:

Heh heh cool :cheers:

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 05:52 PM
Yep, this will be a test for Moss - if he's serious about wanting a ring, that is. No more half-assing it on plays where you're not the primary WR, Randy (among other things).

Moss simply wont last unless he plays to his potential, cuts out all those bad habits like the ones you mention.

The Patriots gave up a 5th rounder for Gabriel, which seemed like a good decision at the time - but the moment he stepped out of line (who knows what he actually did) he was cut with out mercy.

Gone - just like that - and thats when we struggling badly for WR talent.

Moss has two options.

1. Play to his potential.
2. Play for someone else.

There isn't any middle ground the way I see it.

silver & black
04-30-2007, 06:42 PM
Moss simply wont last unless he plays to his potential, cuts out all those bad habits like the ones you mention.

The Patriots gave up a 5th rounder for Gabriel, which seemed like a good decision at the time - but the moment he stepped out of line (who knows what he actually did) he was cut with out mercy.

Gone - just like that - and thats when we struggling badly for WR talent.

Moss has two options.

1. Play to his potential.
2. Play for someone else.

There isn't any middle ground the way I see it.

Gabriel is in for a surprise if he thinks he is going to pull that crap with Kiffin. The days of players running things are at an end. Like the Patriots, it will no longer be tollerated with the Raiders. Moss was the first example.

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Gabriel is in for a surprise if he thinks he is going to pull that crap with Kiffin. The days of players running things are at an end. Like the Patriots, it will no longer be tollerated with the Raiders. Moss was the first example.

Good for Kiffin - cancer is a cliched term but that behavior does fester and spread when it is allowed to be perpetrated by anyone.

The way Owens made of mockery of suppose tough guy Parcells last years shows you that - things like that lose you the confidence and respect of the locker room.

Zero tolerance is the only way to go.

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 07:00 PM
The way Owens made of mockery of suppose tough guy Parcells last years shows you that - things like that lose you the confidence and respect of the locker room.

I agree, LITP, but I think Parcells' hands were tied in that situation - the acquisition of T.O. along with letting him get away with all the BS that he did had all the earmarks of Jones' meddling.

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 07:06 PM
I agree, LITP, but I think Parcells' hands were tied in that situation - the acquisition of T.O. along with letting him get away with all the BS that he did had all the earmarks of Jones' meddling.

Yep - that was the strong rumor wasn't it?

Its bad enough having a problem child, without having one that knows he has carte blanche to act as he pleases.

What Jones did to Parcells was unforgiveable in my book - if it was a younger coach it would have scarred his career for good.

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 07:08 PM
Yep - that was the strong rumor wasn't it?

Its bad enough having a problem child, without having one that knows he has carte blanche to act as he pleases.

What Jones did to Parcells was unforgiveable in my book - if it was a younger coach it would have scarred his career for good.

Absolutely - luckily for Parcells, his legacy was already firmly cemented before he got there.

revefsreleets
04-30-2007, 07:10 PM
Ya know, I agree that on paper the Pats look unstoppable. But I wonder---you've got a lot of new "ego" on that team (albeit ego that generally took a pay cut to come to a potential winner.) It seems like a radical departure from the Pats' usual MO--could it backfire?

No matter, it will be interesting to watch.

That's a really good point. It's one thing to take one player at a time and try to reform them, but maybe the Patriots bit off more then they can chew this time? That kid from Miami stomped on a players head and he has a gun charge, and their second pick was also a Hurricane. Randy Moss is a mess. And some of the free agents the Pats picked up don't fit the mold. I'm wondering if the Patriots have sold their souls for another championship?

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 07:40 PM
That's a really good point. It's one thing to take one player at a time and try to reform them, but maybe the Patriots bit off more then they can chew this time? That kid from Miami stomped on a players head and he has a gun charge, and their second pick was also a Hurricane. Randy Moss is a mess. And some of the free agents the Pats picked up don't fit the mold. I'm wondering if the Patriots have sold their souls for another championship?


Let me get this straight - the Patriots have signed a bunch of players who 'dont fit the mold' yet they made this tragically obvious mistake and in the process 'sold their souls for another championship'?

That doesnt really add up does it?

I haven't seen Randy Moss summed up quite so succinctly - a total mess.

FYI, so you dont parrot untrue chinese whispers - Merriweather was not arrested and was totally cleared by the police for the gun incident - the gun was also 100% legal.

He has realised since that getting himself in those type of situations is not conducive to a successful NFL career - so no more guns for Brandon.

Admittedly I was very disappointed to see his on field actions - the stamping etc - very low class.

The fact remains that these guys behave while they are Patriots or they are shown the door.

Thats a guarantee you can take to the bank.

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 07:44 PM
That's a really good point. It's one thing to take one player at a time and try to reform them, but maybe the Patriots bit off more then they can chew this time? That kid from Miami stomped on a players head and he has a gun charge, and their second pick was also a Hurricane. Randy Moss is a mess. And some of the free agents the Pats picked up don't fit the mold. I'm wondering if the Patriots have sold their souls for another championship?

Sounds like wishful thinking to me - Moss is going to be on an extremely short leash in NE. On paper, I gotta admit, the Pats have to be the favorites in the AFC to go to and win the SB.

Hines0wnz
04-30-2007, 09:25 PM
Ok, you have my attention. I understand Al Davis is not loved throughout the league, but please explain why he is the "stupidest owner in the league". Just to set the record straight... Al Davis does NOT OWN the Raiders... he is the managing general partner.


The biggest issue with him is that his HCs are always looking over their shoulder. How do you expect to be successful knowing you are on a short leash from a naive "managing partner" (I'm aware of his status in the organization, thank you very much) or owner? He pissed away the best coach the Raiders have had since John Madden in Jon Gruden. And he fired Shanahan only to have his Broncos kick the Raiders tail every year. The he hires a young OC from USC?? Even Pete Carroll doesnt want to HC in the NFL anymore but money talks. It seems sometimes he doesnt know if its 2007 or 1967. This isnt the AFL and his PA should tell him that at least once a day. I respect the hell out of the man but honestly, is he an owner/managing partner that you are proud of? Maybe 15 years ago he would be but not now. The Raiders are a laughing stock and its a damn shame.

fansince'76
04-30-2007, 09:29 PM
The biggest issue with him is that his HCs are always looking over their shoulder. How do you expect to be successful knowing you are on a short leash from a naive "managing partner" (I'm aware of his status in the organization, thank you very much) or owner? He pissed away the best coach the Raiders have had since John Madden in Jon Gruden. And he fired Shanahan only to have his Broncos kick the Raiders tail every year. The he hires a young OC from USC?? Even Pete Carroll doesnt want to HC in the NFL anymore but money talks. It seems sometimes he doesnt know if its 2007 or 1967. This isnt the AFL and his PA should tell him that at least once a day. I respect the hell out of the man but honestly, is he an owner/managing partner that you are proud of? Maybe 15 years ago he would be but not now. The Raiders are a laughing stock and its a damn shame.

To put it more succinctly, Al Davis was a great football mind and manager in his day, but his day has long since passed. For the Raiders to return to prominence, he needs to step down - 10 years ago, at least.

revefsreleets
04-30-2007, 09:32 PM
Let me get this straight - the Patriots have signed a bunch of players who 'dont fit the mold' yet they made this tragically obvious mistake and in the process 'sold their souls for another championship'?

That doesnt really add up does it?



I said they sold their souls for another championship. So far, it really does look like they have sold their souls. Lots of teams have signed deals with the devil, but very few of those deals have panned out. One doesn't sell his soul cheap. And the Pats have built a mold that some of these new players don't fit into.

I think my statement is perfectly logical and justified. We'll all have to wait and see how it works out. But I can say that if the Steelers made these same moves, I would not be happy. I want the Steelers to play fair, and win or lose, be good character guys.

Livinginthe past
04-30-2007, 11:18 PM
I said they sold their souls for another championship. So far, it really does look like they have sold their souls. Lots of teams have signed deals with the devil, but very few of those deals have panned out. One doesn't sell his soul cheap. And the Pats have built a mold that some of these new players don't fit into.

I think my statement is perfectly logical and justified. We'll all have to wait and see how it works out. But I can say that if the Steelers made these same moves, I would not be happy. I want the Steelers to play fair, and win or lose, be good character guys.

A mold that seemed to fit Bryan Cox, Rodney Harrison, Corey Dillon you mean?

Its a media created impression that we only employ the whitest of the white, what they actually do is recruit the guys who are willing to do what it takes, putting personal ego's on hold or whatever, to make the Patriots a better team.

You better believe that the hardcore vet presense in the Patriots locker room wont allow any destructive behavior to start.

X-Terminator
04-30-2007, 11:22 PM
As much as it pains me to say this, it looks like the Pats are a shoo-in for title #4. I can't see anyone standing in their way now.

Excuse me while I go and puke... :wink02:

tony hipchest
04-30-2007, 11:37 PM
As much as it pains me to say this, it looks like the Pats are a shoo-in for title #4. I can't see anyone standing in their way now.

Excuse me while I go and puke... :wink02: they do have offense but i will still take my chances with ike on moss, mcfadden on stallworth (who will likely be out with a hamstring by the time we play), deshea on washington, or whatever other 3rd wr they throw out there and smith and polamalu to cover watson/brady/maroney/faulk or the other wr's they send out. if you hit or sack brady 3 times before halftime, he throws interceptions, regardles of whos wr. (ike is faster than moss if he wants to just chuck it up.)

revefsreleets
05-01-2007, 09:44 AM
But I also said "It's one thing to take one player at a time and try to reform them, but maybe the Patriots bit off more then they can chew this time?"

There is no sense arguing. It either works for them, or it doesn't, and nobody will know until next season starts, anyway.

silver & black
05-01-2007, 04:24 PM
The biggest issue with him is that his HCs are always looking over their shoulder. How do you expect to be successful knowing you are on a short leash from a naive "managing partner" (I'm aware of his status in the organization, thank you very much) or owner? He pissed away the best coach the Raiders have had since John Madden in Jon Gruden. And he fired Shanahan only to have his Broncos kick the Raiders tail every year. The he hires a young OC from USC?? Even Pete Carroll doesnt want to HC in the NFL anymore but money talks. It seems sometimes he doesnt know if its 2007 or 1967. This isnt the AFL and his PA should tell him that at least once a day. I respect the hell out of the man but honestly, is he an owner/managing partner that you are proud of? Maybe 15 years ago he would be but not now. The Raiders are a laughing stock and its a damn shame.

I would agree that Al Davis' time has passed. Many of us Raider fans feel that way.

I would also say that this draft showed a loosening of the reigns on Al's part. This draft was damn near all Kiffin. The decision to be rid of Moss was also Kiffin's. Al has said many times since hiring Kiffin that he reminds him of himself in a lot of ways. I think we are going to see this coach have a lot more power than any have had so far... it already is quite apparent that he does.

As far as being proud of Al Davis... no. I have much respect for him, but as I said, I think his time has passed. He was/is a great football man. He has done a lot for pro football. I respect and admire him for that.

John Gruden was not "pissed away", as you say. He and his agent pulled some shady shit in order to get more money... it backfired. The way Gruden paraded himself around on national television with his inuendos of going to Notre Dame or Ohio State while under contract to the Raiders was childish and disrespectful. If he was that unhappy with the money he signed a contract for, he should have been man enough to keep it private between Al and himself and out of the spotlight. what he did was basically the same thing Moss pulled. That turned out the same way.

Gruden isn't so great now, is he? Yeah, he beat us in the Superbowl, or more correct, Dungy did.When you stop and think about it, he should have. He built that Raiders team... he knew every move they would make, every player's strengths and weaknesses... everything about them. How is he doing since Dungy's team is not there anymore?

silver & black
05-01-2007, 04:30 PM
As much as it pains me to say this, it looks like the Pats are a shoo-in for title #4. I can't see anyone standing in their way now.

Excuse me while I go and puke... :wink02:

Are you writing the Colts off? If the Colts' D keeps it's playoff form during the 07 season, I think they have an excellent chance of repeating as Superbowl champs.

MasterOfPuppets
05-01-2007, 04:36 PM
hey litp,whats the reaction like in patsie land?

tony hipchest
05-01-2007, 05:13 PM
hey litp,whats the reaction like in patsie land?theyve already pulled out them stupid assed duckboats and are parading them around town. :rolleyes:

...oh wait. im not litp :dang:

:coffee: carry on!

Livinginthe past
05-01-2007, 11:21 PM
hey litp,whats the reaction like in patsie land?

95% of fans are pumped about the acquisition.

Most of us think that the contract is water tight and low risk - the 1 year nature means that, even if you don't buy into the 'New Randy Moss' talk, he will at least be motivated to put up a good performance to earn his next and probably last big contract.

Most fans are very confident that the FA pick ups, including Moss, have put us over the top in terms of challenging for the SB this year - its nice for Brady to have some genuine quality to throw to this year.

The New England (mostly Boston) media reaction has been typically scathing of the move and has led to alot of angry Patriots fans - I don't think I know of a single group of reporters who are more determined to take the negative outlook on everything their 'home' FO does.

Most of us think that Kraft/Pioli/Belichick have earnt a little breathing room when it comes to personnel decisions.

The NY media has been hilarious, big article yesterday about how the Patriots FA moves have been made because of the pressure of hearing the 'Jets footsteps' creeping up behind them in the AFCE (apperently the Moss move was made because they drafted Darrell Revis - despite it being on the cards for months)

Of course, some fans want to give us the SB ring right now - but thats just over excitement.

tony hipchest
05-01-2007, 11:42 PM
95% of fans are pumped about the acquisition.

.what i find conspicuously odd is the lemming like approach of those 95% of patfans. last year they wouldve been vehemently opposed to such a move. yet as soon as the deal has been struck it turns into another brilliant stroke of genius by pioli and belichick. what is odd is that his services are actually needed less this year than it was last with the upgrades to the passing game with stallworth.

and on the flipside is the steelerfans who act like its a sin for even mentionning bringing moss in. even colbert admitted it was never even a consideration. like i said before, the patriots dont sweat it much if their players smoke pot or were busted on roids in the past (im all for 2nd chances). steelerfans seem like they would rather lose and be "classy".

what gets me is this false image the media portrays of the patriots always targetting "character" and "team" guys. its really a false misrepresentation. the patriots are like the bengals in many regards. they will take the players they feel has the best shot of leading them to wins, regardless. the only difference is the pats always gamble "smart" and their risks have generally paid off. they also have the leadership from the top that allows that.

i think moss has a chance to revive his career with the pats, which is why i started this thread in the 1st place. if he were going to the bengals i would simply laugh and expext the same downward production he found with the raiders.

and while i was off on what the pats shoulda traded for him last season, i really wasnt too far off. the pats traded the 1st from seattle to sf, traded their 2nd to miami, and dont have cassell in their plans anytime soon. all were pretty much disposable pieces. the pats did well by holding off, although i believe they probably woulda had homefield advantage and another sb berth with moss last year. :hunch:

fansince'76
05-01-2007, 11:45 PM
Most of us think that the contract is water tight and low risk - the 1 year nature means that, even if you don't buy into the 'New Randy Moss' talk, he will at least be motivated to put up a good performance to earn his next and probably last big contract.

Do you think the Randy Moss deal is a one-year thing, even if things turn out well and he keeps his mouth shut and behaves? I doubt Moss is gonna be willing to play for a substantially reduced salary for long.

Preacher
05-01-2007, 11:52 PM
Do you think the Randy Moss deal is a one-year thing, even if things turn out well and he keeps his mouth shut and behaves? I doubt Moss is gonna be willing to play for a substantially reduced salary for long.

True...

But then there is this question....


....with all the changes in the Patriot team, even if they win a fourth... can they be considered a dynasty, seeing as how they have changed/lost so many players from the first and even second SB win?

fansince'76
05-01-2007, 11:55 PM
True...

But then there is this question....


....with all the changes in the Patriot team, even if they win a fourth... can they be considered a dynasty, seeing as how they have changed/lost so many players from the first and even second SB win?

I think so - 4 in 7 years? The 49ers won 4 in 9 years in the 80's and the only real constants from the beginning to the end of their run were Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Ronnie Lott. Yeah, Seifert was the coach for the 4th, but it was still Walsh's team.

tony hipchest
05-02-2007, 12:04 AM
the pats have crated a perfect situation. for less money than branch alone they have bought 2 better wr's with significantly more talent and upside who will both be playing for not only a champ but for a job.

you can say they havent even cashed in on the seattle pick yet. they used #24 on merriweather but it gave them the liberty to use #28 on moss AND secure what is likely to be an even higher 1st round pick next year. before tall the free agent signings on free agent wr's there was speculation the pats would use one of their 1st rounders on a wr anyways.

there is definitely a starting job open with the pats, and it should motivate all the wr's to try and play even harder. whoever wins it will be better than branch (glorified givens/patten) and will be paid. i look at moss sticking with the pats, just like t.o. has stuck with the cowboys (despite any minor distractions or problems) the pats would be giddy if they get last years t.o. production out of moss.

if the pats win 4 in 7 years, i think they got to be considered a dynasty just like the steelers or 49ers, but not a greater dynasty.

steelers still got the greatest football dynasty sewn up.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-02-2007, 08:14 AM
the pats have crated a perfect situation. for less money than branch alone they have bought 2 better wr's with significantly more talent and upside who will both be playing for not only a champ but for a job.

you can say they havent even cashed in on the seattle pick yet. they used #24 on merriweather but it gave them the liberty to use #28 on moss AND secure what is likely to be an even higher 1st round pick next year. before tall the free agent signings on free agent wr's there was speculation the pats would use one of their 1st rounders on a wr anyways.

there is definitely a starting job open with the pats, and it should motivate all the wr's to try and play even harder. whoever wins it will be better than branch (glorified givens/patten) and will be paid. i look at moss sticking with the pats, just like t.o. has stuck with the cowboys (despite any minor distractions or problems) the pats would be giddy if they get last years t.o. production out of moss.

if the pats win 4 in 7 years, i think they got to be considered a dynasty just like the steelers or 49ers, but not a greater dynasty.

steelers still got the greatest football dynasty sewn up.

I agree with your assesment of the talent level..but with Moss on the team...you have to wonder about the Patriots ability to maintain the cohesiveness that they have always enjoyed.

Livinginthe past
05-02-2007, 01:33 PM
what i find conspicuously odd is the lemming like approach of those 95% of patfans. last year they wouldve been vehemently opposed to such a move. yet as soon as the deal has been struck it turns into another brilliant stroke of genius by pioli and belichick. what is odd is that his services are actually needed less this year than it was last with the upgrades to the passing game with stallworth.

I post on a Patriots board that im pretty sure is the most popular in the country - its often quoted in the local boston media when a 'voice of the fans' is required.

There are some fans who were opposed to Moss becoming a Patriot and remain so, others have softened their stance somewhat.

There were fans who were sceptical that it would ever happen (myself included), and now that Belichick and Pioli have given it their blessing I am 100% on board.

I would have been opposed to him being awarded a large contract on the hope he could make a previously weak WR corps stronger - Moss would then be the boss in that situation.

The fact is the Patriots F.O. does a better job at talent acquisition in the NFL (draft or FA) than anyone else - their recent record speaks for itself - these guys know what they are doing.

If the same deal were on the table last year - 4th rounder and a 1 year $3.5million contract - I am positive the Patriots would have pulled the trigger - I just dont think it was.

Either the Raiders were talking too much draft pick compensation (they reportedly wanted a 2nd rounder from Green Bay on a week or two ago) or Randy wasn't quite so desperate to move.

and on the flipside is the steelerfans who act like its a sin for even mentionning bringing moss in. even colbert admitted it was never even a consideration. like i said before, the patriots dont sweat it much if their players smoke pot or were busted on roids in the past (im all for 2nd chances). steelerfans seem like they would rather lose and be "classy".

The Steelers do pride themselves on being the 'class of the NFL' - its probably a deserved title but when it becomes a millstone round the neck of a franchise trying to remain competitive you have have to question the wisdom behind applying it so strictly.

The fact is decent guys find themselves in bad situations, with a bad crowd - having interviewed these guys and seen their potential - not just as players but as teammates it seems crazy to damn them forever for a past transgression.

We all make mistakes.

Steeler fans who say (and i've seen this recently) they would rather 'lose classy' than give a guy like Moss or Dillon a 2nd chance are deluding themselves - ask the same question when the Ravens are sacking the Pittsburgh franchise QB for the 7th time in a single game and you'll get a different answer.

I can tell you aren't one of these fans - you probably think outside the box better than others (trades for Ward and Faneca etc etc) - you never be proven right or wrong though because the Steelers F.O think in very straight lines.

what gets me is this false image the media portrays of the patriots always targetting "character" and "team" guys. its really a false misrepresentation. the patriots are like the bengals in many regards. they will take the players they feel has the best shot of leading them to wins, regardless. the only difference is the pats always gamble "smart" and their risks have generally paid off. they also have the leadership from the top that allows that.

Agreed. The false media image is very annoying - what New England excels at is having guys who love playing football - who have high character in terms of being good citizens and giving 100% on the field.

What they aren't is a bunch of working class heroes made good, and they certainly aren't angels of any description.

Typically, a writer for Boston media recently wrote about the Patriots abandoning their 'sanctamonious values' to recruit players of dubious character.

This is idiotic because you can't label a teams values 'sanctamonius' and then criticise them for abandoning them in the next breath - and as you said, it wasn't the Patriots who asked for this tedious label.

Strictly media invention.

The Bengals pick dumb because they dont understand the relationship beween a locker room full of dubious easily led characters and a team that is likely to run out of control.

They also don't understand that you must have a base of solid veteran citizens that can positively influence the younger impressionable guys.

Otherwise its just the blind leading the blind....to jail.

i think moss has a chance to revive his career with the pats, which is why i started this thread in the 1st place. if he were going to the bengals i would simply laugh and expext the same downward production he found with the raiders.

and while i was off on what the pats shoulda traded for him last season, i really wasnt too far off. the pats traded the 1st from seattle to sf, traded their 2nd to miami, and dont have cassell in their plans anytime soon. all were pretty much disposable pieces. the pats did well by holding off, although i believe they probably woulda had homefield advantage and another sb berth with moss last year. :hunch:

You are right about the Bengals being a bad choice for Moss, I think Green Bay would have been a poor choice too - simply because they have little chance of giving Moss what he wants - a ring.

Moss to the Steelers should have been viable - plenty of solid citizens and a good chance of reaching the playoffs this years gets a whole lot likelier.

Like I said before, if the 4th rounder (or even some of the things you mentioned) would have got Moss for a year at the maximum cost of $5million they would have pulled the trigger.

I can only imagine that the situation wans't so buyer friendly last year.

HFA?

Probably.

Livinginthe past
05-02-2007, 03:32 PM
Do you think the Randy Moss deal is a one-year thing, even if things turn out well and he keeps his mouth shut and behaves? I doubt Moss is gonna be willing to play for a substantially reduced salary for long.

Im sure it can be a 1 year deal if the Patriots want it to remain so - its probably similar to the Stallworth deal in that they have an option on a 2nd,3rd and maybe 4th year for better money.

The Patriots will gauge his worth to the team - if he underperforms or simply overvalues his contribution to the team then he will be looking for a new team next year.

Maybe Moss is using this as a 1 year audition for another top team and big money, but then I guess he woud have taken a much bigger pay check in Green Bay.

Livinginthe past
05-02-2007, 03:34 PM
True...

But then there is this question....


....with all the changes in the Patriot team, even if they win a fourth... can they be considered a dynasty, seeing as how they have changed/lost so many players from the first and even second SB win?

Yes they can, the salary cap means that player turnover is inevitable and much more so for successful teams.

The Colts D may well be unrecognisable from the team that played in the SB and that was only last year.

Counselor
05-02-2007, 04:13 PM
Anyone read this article by Michael Silver on SI yet? I'd love to hear people's thoughts---especially you LITP.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/05/02/patriots/index.html

Livinginthe past
05-02-2007, 04:26 PM
Anyone read this article by Michael Silver on SI yet? I'd love to hear people's thoughts---especially you LITP.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/05/02/patriots/index.html

Hmmmm.

Honest opinion?

Reconsituted garbage that I think Tony Hipchest and myself have covered in our previous couple of posts on this forum.

More tedious BS about the Patriots having to concede the 'moral high ground' - which they have never actually claimed to own in the first place.

The SuperBowl introductions the Patriots used has even come in for some abuse - Banks probably doesn't like the Patriots very much - and thats fine.

Heres a quick quote, to show you what I have already stated.

But I'll tell you this: I sure am sick of hearing the Patriots portrayed as the sole NFL team with principles and integrity, while their 31 competitors are depicted as heartless mercenaries who'd employ, say, Mel Gibson if he could run a 4.3 40 and play press coverage. (He definitely knows how to backpedal.)

Banks is part of the media who im sure bleats unendingly about the Patriots high-character , low talent, hard triers - its a myth created by people like Banks because they can't explain how the Patriots keep winning.

tony hipchest
05-02-2007, 05:36 PM
Anyone read this article by Michael Silver on SI yet? I'd love to hear people's thoughts---especially you LITP.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/05/02/patriots/index.htmldespite the obvious venom silver has for moss, i thouroughly enjoyed the mud that was rightfully slung on the pats. he was spot on, and its refreshing to see even ex-patriot players agree with what ive been saying since 2002 about the pats and the false perception of them being such a "classy" franchise:

It's hard to picture Moss not being motivated to be a good soldier in New England. If he shuts up and focuses and works hard for the next nine months, he may well end up celebrating a career resurrection, enjoying the fat contract that inevitably will follow and being re-branded as a champion who restored the Patriots' winning aura. If so, everyone will say and write that the Pats, because of their emphasis on character and integrity, were able to bring out the best in Moss, who was really just a misunderstood warrior all along.

And that, of course, will be complete and utter crap.

"I'm not mad that they did this," the former Patriots player said. "I'm mad that for all these years, when everyone wrote that their values were different, they ate it up. They're no different than anyone else, and they never were. We had a run, and the rest is just propaganda.

"I bought into all that stuff about the 'Patriot Way,' and then when I went to [a new team], I was blown away by how loudly guys outside of the organization shot it down. They'd say, 'You guys don't do s--- different -- you've just got Tom Brady.' I argued with them at first, but looking back, there was no lower percentage of jackasses there than on any other team. Some of the guys they drafted, even in early rounds, were selfish and unreliable and horrible to have around."


the biggest thing i have always disliked about the patriots (and why i dont slobber all over them) is the inferiority complex theyve always shown about "the lack of respect". this led to the inventions and propoganda sivler comments on about it not being enough for them to win 3 sb's in 4 years. they had to be the "classiest" ones to do it. or they had to be "the greatest dynasty of all time. :poop: most football diehards see right through this. as does former patriot players themselves.

the best lines of the whole article?-

Either way, can we all agree to put away the harps and halos when we celebrate the Patriots' imminent triumphs?

As the former Pats player concluded, "When we were winning championships, it wasn't just that we were good -- it had to be that we were smarter, more principled and more virtuous than everybody else. And now that I've thought it through, I don't understand why. Look, they have a great owner and a brilliant coach; they evaluate players well, and they have Tom Brady. Why can't that be enough?"

From now on, it'll have to be.


whats funny is theres plenty of players this unnamed source can be. i wouldnt be supprised if it was some of their biggest stars such as milloy, vinatieri, law, branch. im leaning towards vinatieri.

fansince'76
05-03-2007, 01:11 AM
Anyone read this article by Michael Silver on SI yet? I'd love to hear people's thoughts---especially you LITP.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/05/02/patriots/index.html

IMHO, Michael Silver is just another know-it-all blowhard whose vitriol (along with all the other crap in the publication he works for) I don't take seriously for a second. After all, he was crucified right here in these forums very recently (and rightfully so) for this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/03/15/porter/index.html

To sum it up, staff writers like Silver are just another reason (among many) that I canceled my subscription to SI years ago.

Livinginthe past
05-05-2007, 07:13 AM
I don't remember old Lenny boy being quite so quick off the mark when it came to telling everyone how Mannings restructuring wouldn't cost him a penny.

It was, of course, a selfless gesture by one of the NFL's classiest performers.

But while Brady was universally lauded, and justifiably so, people should know this: The reworking of the contract didn't cost Brady anything at the pay window. He still will earn the $6 million that is due him in 2007. Not a penny less.

Im trying to work out if Lenny is dumb enough to contradict himself in the space of two sentences or if he was experimenting with sarcasm with the opening sentence.

Brady doesn't deserve to be 'lauded' for anything simply because he doesn't lose a penny in real money.

As for the future cap hits - im quietly confident that that Patriots FO wont be turning round to each other with confused looks on their faces saying "we owe Brady howwww much?".

Honestly if the Patriots aren't portrayed as cheap money pinchers they are the portrayed as the the Washington Redskins MkII....hilarious.

tony hipchest
05-06-2007, 05:46 PM
belichick said he envisions playing the role d. branch used to play and that moss will be required to learn all wr positions.

this is a recipe for disaster and mistake #1. moss needs to be handled with kid gloves and not have too much put on his plate. it might interfere with his off season "chronic" time.

there are 2 routes moss likes to run- the "dig", and the "post". if you keep it simple for him he can be great. dont make him be the "chris carter" of the offense, otherwise it wont work.

case in point is parcells actually expectin T. "i love me some me" O. to learn the whole playbook.

augustashark
10-04-2007, 01:29 AM
Well said.

For a copycat league its amazing how slow some other franchises are to catch on to this.

What you gain with output from Moss, you would probably lose in other areas he has an negative effect on.

NM

Seen you stroking your man in the Marvin Lewis thread. 180, would'nt you say litp. LOL:wave:

Livinginthe past
10-04-2007, 03:27 AM
Seen you stroking your man in the Marvin Lewis thread. 180, would'nt you say litp. LOL:wave:

I don't mind admitting Randy Moss has, so far, proven my worries about his 'personality' were off the mark.

By the same token, my main concern was of the 'trade value' put forward by the OP - a 1st round pick and our No.2 QB - I thought that was way too much and so it proved.

To clarify further, it would be a huge risk for the Patriots, in my opinion, to trade away their only back-up QB and a 1st rounder to get Moss on board.

A 4th rounder was a much more acceptable risk.

I tend to trust the moves the Patriots FO make, bearing in mind their recent track record in personnel moves is second to none - as I stated in this very thread.

I'd be excited to have Moss on the team, because that would mean the Patriots FO were confident he was the right man - howevere im far from convinced that is the case.

So, sure I was excited when I heard the trade news on the 2nd day of the draft - I thoght he would offer a nice variation to back teams off the LOS - I didn't really suspect that he would be by far the most impressive WR in the league by week 4.

I don't think I was alone there, though.

tony hipchest
10-04-2007, 08:39 PM
pretty hilarious that this thread got a quite worthy bump.
the best deep threat available is r. moss. the best player who could have the biggest impact in the pats offense is r. moss. the team who has the most to offer is the pats.

i'll just put this lesson on your tab.

hmmmm. and to think the tab for the lesson still hasnt been paid. go figure.



As for your growing obsession about the Patriots requirement for a 'deep threat' .... I can't understand where you are getting it from.

You are the guy with the tired 'dink and dunk' schtick regarding Brady's successful passing offense - now you are telling us that because we have traded away a guy (who specialised in medium to short routes) we now suddenly have a burning need for a speedy deep threat?

Sorry, thats just illogical.


NM what you call "obsession" and "schtick" and "illogical" is what we simply call football accumen and the elementary understanding of basic fundamentals and principals...

theres a trove of football knowledge in this thread. especially now that hardwork is gone. always entertaining to read his infinite words of wisdom though. :coffee:

typical.