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clevestinks
07-13-2005, 04:02 PM
I knew I would get some Pats fan going here!!! LOL
I just saw Troy Brown on the Jim Rome show. He is a class act, and Belichek says " Troy is the best team leader he has seen in 30 years in the NFL.
ThE Pats are LUCKY to keep him. Who wouldn`t want a team player like that. I believe we have something equal to that in Hines Ward, this is a must sign for us.
So like I said, The Pats are lucky, lucky to keep Troy.

This is probably not for the BF , sorry.

Mean Machine
07-14-2005, 03:16 PM
And cheap as hell! You noticed that they opened the flood gates with that Brady signing and now things aren't looking too good...

Seymour wants jack and they let all of those players go. Eventually, they are going to have to pay the loot!

bigbensgirl7
07-14-2005, 03:26 PM
I knew I would get some Pats fan going here!!! LOL
I just saw Troy Brown on the Jim Rome show. He is a class act, and Belichek says " Troy is the best team leader he has seen in 30 years in the NFL.
ThE Pats are LUCKY to keep him. Who wouldn`t want a team player like that. I believe we have something equal to that in Hines Ward, this is a must sign for us.
So like I said, The Pats are lucky, lucky to keep Troy.

This is probably not for the BF , sorry.
Hahaha, you got me there Cleve...I was expecting some major smack talk!!! Anyways, I hope we are as LUCKY keeping Ward.

ironcitychef
07-14-2005, 04:09 PM
I just don't see Trot laying it on both sides this year after getting left out in the off season the way he did. I think some NE players might think about it too with Seymour barking the way he is.

Dirtywater
07-14-2005, 04:21 PM
I just don't see Trot laying it on both sides this year after getting left out in the off season the way he did. I think some NE players might think about it too with Seymour barking the way he is.


As if we're the only club this affects. Hello, Burress?

No better way to tell me we're that good than to wish more salary issues for us. :D

Livinginthe past
07-14-2005, 05:45 PM
And cheap as hell! You noticed that they opened the flood gates with that Brady signing and now things aren't looking too good...

Seymour wants jack and they let all of those players go. Eventually, they are going to have to pay the loot!

Sure its a hazard of winning the Big Prize every year - them players just want more and more.

Hell - id much rather go 15-1 then get blown out in the play offs - saves any inconvenient salary cap issues#

Regards

NM

clevestinks
07-14-2005, 06:30 PM
I wouldn`t go that far. The more All-Pro the bigger the salaries. And we had plenty.

ironcitychef
07-15-2005, 10:20 AM
We only asked Plax to play offense and he was only 2nd tier at that. You asked Troy to do everything and he over preformed. Don't think they are really the same thing. In fact I bet Randle El and Ward if and when they get extended will be glad we didn't waste money on Plax.

hardwork
07-15-2005, 10:56 AM
"I just don't see Trot laying it on both sides this year after getting left out in the off season the way he did. I think some NE players might think about it too with Seymour barking the way he is."


You worry about the Steelers. They haven't won anything in 25 years. We'll worry about the Patriots.

ironcitychef
07-15-2005, 11:10 AM
Alright then as a Pats fan, what is your take on asking Troy to do double duty, then leave him hanging come contract time? Who deserves the money more than Troy on your team?

Blitzburgh55
07-15-2005, 11:59 AM
there not that lucky even i would like to think that any macth we play with new england will be close

Dirtywater
07-15-2005, 01:02 PM
Alright then as a Pats fan, what is your take on asking Troy to do double duty, then leave him hanging come contract time? Who deserves the money more than Troy on your team?


Yeah, he was so hurt that he turned down more money to come back to the Pats. At least do 1 minute worth of fact checking before you make a weak arguement. :blah:

Dirtywater
07-15-2005, 01:04 PM
We only asked Plax to play offense and he was only 2nd tier at that. You asked Troy to do everything and he over preformed. Don't think they are really the same thing. In fact I bet Randle El and Ward if and when they get extended will be glad we didn't waste money on Plax.


Ahh my favorite. Revisionist history.

BeforePlax Left:

He is great! He is a number one receiver! He is so underrated! :blah:

After Plax Left:

He was only 2nd tier! He wasn't a number 1 recevier! He wasn't worth the money! :blah:

Keep 'em coming. I love how easily you guys change your tunes and back off supporting guys once they leave. :D

clevestinks
07-15-2005, 01:26 PM
Not so fast! I can`t remember anyone saying that Plax was anything but a number 2 receiver. And Like every team , you root for your team know matter who is on the field. Plax was never a fan favorite here. He was lazy, didn`t have great speed, and his hands are just a luittle better than average. With that said, if it were Hines Ward who had left for NY, you wouldn`t here any of us saying he was terrible or overrated. Kendrell Bell also. We thought he was great here, but injury prone. we, at least I didn`t want him to leave, he is something special when healthy. I don`t think anyone here would rag on him. Burress was a bad example on your part. If troy Brown was a lazy jerk, who always complained, you wouldn`t be sorry when he got cut. It s players like Burress that make you appreciate the Wards and Browns of the league even more.

Dirtywater
07-15-2005, 01:33 PM
Not so fast! I can`t remember anyone saying that Plax was anything but a number 2 receiver. And Like every team , you root for your team know matter who is on the field. Plax was never a fan favorite here. He was lazy, didn`t have great speed, and his hands are just a luittle better than average. With that said, if it were Hines Ward who had left for NY, you wouldn`t here any of us saying he was terrible or overrated. Kendrell Bell also. We thought he was great here, but injury prone. we, at least I didn`t want him to leave, he is something special when healthy. I don`t think anyone here would rag on him. Burress was a bad example on your part. If troy Brown was a lazy jerk, who always complained, you wouldn`t be sorry when he got cut. It s players like Burress that make you appreciate the Wards and Browns of the league even more.


Well, I used to frequent other Steelers forums before here, and they sure let me know how 'awesome' and 'great' Plax was. Hey, even I think he is a damn good receiver. Maybe this is the black hole of Steelers forums, but that was my impression. Point taken though.

I do have to say, this is the best Steelers forums online. You guys at least are willing to discuss an issue.

clevestinks
07-15-2005, 05:36 PM
Well, I used to frequent other Steelers forums before here, and they sure let me know how 'awesome' and 'great' Plax was. Hey, even I think he is a damn good receiver. Maybe this is the black hole of Steelers forums, but that was my impression. Point taken though.

I do have to say, this is the best Steelers forums online. You guys at least are willing to discuss an issue.

I wil agree that Mike does have a nice forum here, the best.

Dirtywater
07-15-2005, 06:27 PM
Here are some comments from Mean Joe Greene about the Pats:

"This last team (2004 Patriots) reminded me of our 1979 club," Greene said. "I?m talking about veterans who knew how to win regardless of what they encountered. That was like our last two championships."
The 1979 Steelers beat the Rams, 31-19, in Super Bowl XIV.
"We came to play every game," Greene said, "but you never knew how well you were going to have to play to win. Whatever ?good enough? was, that?s what we were. Some weeks ?good enough? had to be better than the week before.
"Watching the Patriots in the playoffs against Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, I saw a veteran team that knew how to win. They have good generalship. The guys know how to play. This is a team with guys on the football field knowing what to do. They are guys who can take charge and they have the coaching, too. They were ready to capitalize on opportunities when the ball bounced their way and that?s what good teams do. When I played, my coaches told me ?You never know when you?re going to have to step up? and you?ve got to be ready to do that.
"Sometimes, you have four, five, or six people who always show up, but most of the time, that hat falls on somebody else rather than one of those guys. And that?s when you have a solid football team ?- when somebody else makes the big play."

BengalBrian
07-15-2005, 08:08 PM
Yep.. Time for 90% of NE fans to stop being fans since its downhill from here for a few years at least

ericnie18
07-15-2005, 08:26 PM
Mean Joe Greene Obviously Knows A Great Team When He Sees One.what A Class Act Just Like The Pats.

Dirtywater
07-15-2005, 11:05 PM
Yep.. Time for 90% of NE fans to stop being fans since its downhill from here for a few years at least


Yet another classic. Where did you learn that line, from your big brothers here at the Steelers Forums?

Should I point out how empty your stadium was during your bad years? No, that would only cheapen my argument. See, I realize that every team has die-hard and bandwagon fans. You know when I realized that? When I was maybe 9 years old. It's called common sense genius.

In addition, I've been hearing the same old 'downhill' line going on 3 years now. What's happened in that amount of time? Look at my sig if you need a visual reference. The only constant is your team has been .500 or worse. Good try though commander.

Sit down son, this is a man's game.

ironcitychef
07-16-2005, 12:10 AM
At least do 1 minute worth of fact checking before you make a weak arguement. :blah:

Why don't you catch up on the posts already on our board before assuming everyone wanted Plax. Again you never answered why he(Brown) deserved a paycut. At least we were honest with Jerome about what we expect and what we would pay.

Dirtywater
07-16-2005, 12:52 AM
Why don't you catch up on the posts already on our board before assuming everyone wanted Plax. Again you never answered why he(Brown) deserved a paycut. At least we were honest with Jerome about what we expect and what we would pay.


Let's play catch up, shall we? Did you read what I wrote:

Well, I used to frequent other Steelers forums before here, and they sure let me know how 'awesome' and 'great' Plax was.

I didn't think reading comprehension could be so hard.

As for Brown, he didn't deserve a pay cut. Who ever deserves a pay cut? Facts are facts. Troy's time as a WR on our team diminished with the emergence of Branch and Givens. Add at the time Patten, and Troy was facing being a 4th or 5th WR if you factor in Bethel Johnson.

Going into this season, the Pats added Tim Dwight and David Terrell. Subtract Patten and he faced falling to 5th if Dwight makes the team. So, his playing time could have potentially fallen even more. We added players, cap numbers go up and well, it wasn't cost effective to have his original cap number. Those are the facts. You can't live in Candyland, where it's all puppy dogs and ice cream. Belichick still repsected the man, but he knew in order to keep him he would have to take a pay cut. Did he deserve it? No. But this is a business, and you don't win championships in the salary cap era by constantly rewarding past performance with every player. It's impossible.

We, you and every other team faces the same issues each season. It's how you deal with it that seperates the winners and losers. And finally, like I said, it obviously didn't bother him that much as he turned down both more money and more of a role to play in New Orleans.

clevestinks
07-16-2005, 07:17 AM
NO ? or NE? Let me see? What the Hell, I`d go to NE to, if that were my choices.

Livinginthe past
07-16-2005, 08:12 AM
Why don't you catch up on the posts already on our board before assuming everyone wanted Plax. Again you never answered why he(Brown) deserved a paycut. At least we were honest with Jerome about what we expect and what we would pay.

Im amazed at how consistently that posters on this forum seem to have absolutely no concept of the salary cap and how its works.
Maybe this is because alot of you still rooting for the 70's Steelers?!

The patriots are running an extremely efficient organisation. They look after the needs of the team & franchise before the needs of a single player.

Ill agree it seemed harsh to dangle Troy out in the cold, but this is a business - the business of winning Superbowls.

Maybe I can find a link to a site where the whole concept of salary cap is explained point by point to help to the slower of you guys.

Regards

NM

ironcitychef
07-16-2005, 10:25 AM
I have a fair understanding of the cap my friend. Enough to know that you didn't just drop his salary a notch like a regular employee who has to tighten his belt cause the budget is tight. You cut him off the entire team! And when you go from a few million to a couple hundred thousand, I would want to stay where I wouldn't have to buy a new house and move my family too. Not to mention its was NO. Just want to see how a team who prides itself on not being selfish responds to a "corporate" decesion that was nothing but.

Livinginthe past
07-16-2005, 11:29 AM
You really still dont grasp the salary cap despite your protestations otherwise IRONCITYCHIEF.

Quite simply - for a team as succesful as the New England Patriots there isnt enough salary to go round in order that everyone is paid what they are worth.

The Pats admin would have said to Troy - Well done on an excellent season, you are part of Patriots folklore - however he is getting on in years and the only thing the administration really care about is the UPCOMING years performance....not some wishy washy sentimental pay-off.

The bottom line is that the Pats were nothing but fair with all their players - they give them the figure they are willing to pay them for their services - if the player wants it - he takes it...simple.

If he doesn't - he can take the Lawyer Milloy/ Ted Washington option and go for the pay day at the expense of a realistic shot at another ring.

It just goes to show what very little ammo you have to shoot our way when you keep moaning and whining about a player we have actually re-signed.

Regards and Never-ending Patience

NM

ironcitychef
07-16-2005, 12:10 PM
Not getting testy are you? Just wanted to know from a NE fan if you thought Brown was treated "fairly". Guess you are okay with it...as long as you keep winning so we'll see how it turns out:coffee: . Speaking of little ammo, did you typically surf Steelers boards when you were the laughing stock of the league or just cause you won the last Super Bowl?

Dirtywater
07-16-2005, 12:34 PM
I have a fair understanding of the cap my friend. Enough to know that you didn't just drop his salary a notch like a regular employee who has to tighten his belt cause the budget is tight. You cut him off the entire team!

Guy, I have no doubt you are an intelligent man, but again, you have the story wrong. We offered to restructure his existing deal at the end of the season to make cap room. He refused and knew by refusing he would be cut. Pretty common practice in the NFL, no? The picture you painted above is deceiving at best and a lie at worst.

Dirtywater
07-16-2005, 12:42 PM
Not getting testy are you? Just wanted to know from a NE fan if you thought Brown was treated "fairly". Guess you are okay with it...as long as you keep winning so we'll see how it turns out:coffee: . Speaking of little ammo, did you typically surf Steelers boards when you were the laughing stock of the league or just cause you won the last Super Bowl?


And there it is. the real ironcitychef comes out. When backed into a corner of his own bad logic, he spits out the only line he can think of. One that is both irrelevant and wrong.

Let's see. The majority of the forums for football became popular around maybe '99, give or take a year in either direction. So, two things. First off, our team wasn't playing great at that time (Hello Pette Carroll, lol) so why would we talk smack. I guess that is something you would do? Again, bad logic. Second, where would we have posted if that was the case?

Your inference that we have bad fans has now become pure comedy. Label us all you want fella, it's all good. As a die-hard fan, I learned around age 10 that all teams have good and bad fans. Again, common sense. Should we even begin to talk about all those empty seats at Heinze during our playoff game once your team faced adversity? Not worth it IMHO cause I'm adult enough to know that the true fans stuck with their team no matter what.

Man, sometimes it's OK to admit you were wrong. I've done it here. Clevestinks pointed out my error in the Plax situation on this forum and I took it like a man. Clevestinks did the same in the Ty Law thread. Admitting you are wrong is a bitch, but we'd all actually think more of you. No need for the cheapshots when your argument goes south.

I know you're used to dealing with pushovers when it comes to Pats fans, but you've picked on the wrong guy.

Livinginthe past
07-16-2005, 01:03 PM
Not getting testy are you? Just wanted to know from a NE fan if you thought Brown was treated "fairly". Guess you are okay with it...as long as you keep winning so we'll see how it turns out:coffee: . Speaking of little ammo, did you typically surf Steelers boards when you were the laughing stock of the league or just cause you won the last Super Bowl?

I dont believe that the internet was that popular a tool back then.

Speaking of tools........

Tha rock
07-16-2005, 02:00 PM
Theyre not to lucky going up aginst us game 1!!!!!!!!! :busted:

clevestinks
07-16-2005, 02:01 PM
What was the difference in the contracts that Brown did accept and the one he turned down? Just curious because he didn`t have as many teams knocking on his door as he probably thought. And like I said NewO for more money would not be a step up anyway. I am curious if he would have taken the same money from say Philly, or Indy, Pitts, or a team like Atl, where I think he would fit in nicely.

ironcitychef
07-17-2005, 01:27 AM
I dont believe that the internet was that popular a tool back then.


You mean they didn't have the internet five years ago? Don't tell me you thought you guys were the laughing stock only twenty years ago.

Oh, and Dirtywater, I can easily remember checking out Steelers boards on a sad, time consuming Prodigy connection well before '99. Born in '68 huh? Well I guess NE didn't have a reason to talk to other fans outside of Boston before the turn of the century. I'm also surprised that you think after a mere 49 posts you know the "real" me? Please you will be off this site sooner than me. Thats the other thing. We say you all are lucky to keep Troy, ask about how you think he got treated and you all go nuts. Tell us to mind our own business and that its the same with Plax(even though he signed with a different team?) Next time you want to cause trouble, you might want to start out in your own neighborhood. Yes, I thank you for admitting that livinginthepast, hardwork,tombrady, etc are feeble minded pats fans with this quote:
I know you're used to dealing with pushovers when it comes to Pats fans, but you've picked on the wrong guy.
But we started this board, and understand we will have to deal with fans living the moment with no appreciation of football overall. As for me, I can easily admit when I'm wrong, but I know I'm right when I smell PATS fans only hanging out in the BF looking for trouble. So bring your bettter than thou attitude, cause you only know what is possible for a NFL franchise cause we have already been there.

Tha rock
07-17-2005, 01:40 AM
All pasty fans are push overs!!

Livinginthe past
07-17-2005, 04:40 AM
You mean they didn't have the internet five years ago? Don't tell me you thought you guys were the laughing stock only twenty years ago.

Oh, and Dirtywater, I can easily remember checking out Steelers boards on a sad, time consuming Prodigy connection well before '99. Born in '68 huh? Well I guess NE didn't have a reason to talk to other fans outside of Boston before the turn of the century. I'm also surprised that you think after a mere 49 posts you know the "real" me? Please you will be off this site sooner than me. Thats the other thing. We say you all are lucky to keep Troy, ask about how you think he got treated and you all go nuts. Tell us to mind our own business and that its the same with Plax(even though he signed with a different team?) Next time you want to cause trouble, you might want to start out in your own neighborhood. Yes, I thank you for admitting that livinginthepast, hardwork,tombrady, etc are feeble minded pats fans with this quote:

But we started this board, and understand we will have to deal with fans living the moment with no appreciation of football overall. As for me, I can easily admit when I'm wrong, but I know I'm right when I smell PATS fans only hanging out in the BF looking for trouble. So bring your bettter than thou attitude, cause you only know what is possible for a NFL franchise cause we have already been there.


Oh IronCity - your posts should have a health warning on them - im in stitches after your latest attempt.

Ok for the record - you keep wittering on about how its your board and you will post what you want - hey fine! I can recognise this - its says Steelers right there in the URL bar.

But what you must also realise my dear, dear Ironcity is that there is a section of it called the Blast Furnace - I believe rival fans have been known to post here.

You also say that we were lucky to keep Troy. I like Troy and was glad we could do a deal - but lets be honest the main thrust of the Steelers opinions on this issue were mainly trying to make out that the Pats were a miserly organisation - they were NOT genuinely concerned about a WR that could be making game changing plays against you next year - to insinuate any different is laughable.

I will sum you up briefly Ironcity, and believe me I dont think I need as many as 49 posts to form an opinion of your incredibly deep personality.

You take everything on here too personally - you can call me feeble-minded all you like I really couldnt care less because its a forum on a computer screen.

You talk about me like I came on here and stated over and over again that the 'Steelers suck - so there' - well I haven't......not once.

All I did was offer an opinion from a rivals point of view, but it seems all you want to hear is how the Steelers are best team to ever play football.

You keep chanting like a lucky mantra ' lets talk football' - but when we do - you cant handle it.

You should just be honest with everyone and say 'lets talk Steelers Dynasty'

For the record, you wont get many more open minded rival posters on here than Dirtywater and I, the problem is you have gotten too used to Browns and Bengal fans telling you they HATE YOU - with absolutely no rational thought or football talk.

Oh, and what exactly is the 'Football Overall' you quote in your post?

Is it, by any chance, a get out clause that you keep using to get out of difficult football debates? ie, The Pats may be great now, but we have won more SB's overall.

Because I will will tell you something now - you aint gonna win diddly this year based on 'Football Overall'

NM

ironcitychef
07-17-2005, 10:24 AM
oh my gosh, pickone dude. Was it lucky to keep Troy, was it poor organizational skills, quit moving. I just kept asking despite what the organization did, if as a fan you backed the decision after having a player go all out. That simple.
And its not my board, but it is a Steeler board so you gotta understand that you are on a uphill battle. You come in and post other facts about internet and definitions but never answer the questions until three pages later. Thats the biggest thing I hate about the Pat fans here. Quick to remind we won 3 out of 4 but it will be a day or so until I answer if Brown got jobbed after being a mvp type for the team. In the past or not, at least I don't beat around the bush where I stand. I've always said you get the title of last champ. Never said you posted Steelers suck, just that your currrent 3 are somehow better than our four or Dallas/SF five. For your overall, I just don't see how you can get upset because I don't pat you on the back like a fellow NE fan. Maybe if you really were concerned you would answer CS question about the difference in contracts. Would love to talk about that...

Dirtywater
07-17-2005, 12:09 PM
You mean they didn't have the internet five years ago? Don't tell me you thought you guys were the laughing stock only twenty years ago.

Oh, and Dirtywater, I can easily remember checking out Steelers boards on a sad, time consuming Prodigy connection well before '99. Born in '68 huh? Well I guess NE didn't have a reason to talk to other fans outside of Boston before the turn of the century. I'm also surprised that you think after a mere 49 posts you know the "real" me? Please you will be off this site sooner than me. Thats the other thing. We say you all are lucky to keep Troy, ask about how you think he got treated and you all go nuts. Tell us to mind our own business and that its the same with Plax(even though he signed with a different team?) Next time you want to cause trouble, you might want to start out in your own neighborhood. Yes, I thank you for admitting that livinginthepast, hardwork,tombrady, etc are feeble minded pats fans with this quote:

But we started this board, and understand we will have to deal with fans living the moment with no appreciation of football overall. As for me, I can easily admit when I'm wrong, but I know I'm right when I smell PATS fans only hanging out in the BF looking for trouble. So bring your bettter than thou attitude, cause you only know what is possible for a NFL franchise cause we have already been there.

Wow, my head is spinning. Way to stay on topic.

Look, I see you want to fight simply because I am a Pats fan. Cool, knock yourself out. I had a bizarre time talking with you, and you are the only Steelers fan here who starts crap with me. You epitomize the typical Steelers fan from other boards so we'll agree to disagree.

I wish you well but will refrain from being baited into useless arguements. If you ever want to talk football, all good good. Until then, find another Pats fan to fight in the sandbox with.

Cheers.

DW

Livinginthe past
07-17-2005, 12:50 PM
oh my gosh, pickone dude. Was it lucky to keep Troy, was it poor organizational skills, quit moving. I just kept asking despite what the organization did, if as a fan you backed the decision after having a player go all out. That simple.
And its not my board, but it is a Steeler board so you gotta understand that you are on a uphill battle. You come in and post other facts about internet and definitions but never answer the questions until three pages later. Thats the biggest thing I hate about the Pat fans here. Quick to remind we won 3 out of 4 but it will be a day or so until I answer if Brown got jobbed after being a mvp type for the team. In the past or not, at least I don't beat around the bush where I stand. I've always said you get the title of last champ. Never said you posted Steelers suck, just that your currrent 3 are somehow better than our four or Dallas/SF five. For your overall, I just don't see how you can get upset because I don't pat you on the back like a fellow NE fan. Maybe if you really were concerned you would answer CS question about the difference in contracts. Would love to talk about that...

As Dirtywater says it seems you are just intent on picking a fight without actually debating anything.
I am hoping that the latest Troy Brown - comment was a misguided attempt to wind us up?
Poor orgainisational skills? We have the best personnel decision makers in the league - closely followed by the Ravens.
The biggest things you HATE about pats fans here? This is where we see your true colours - I dont hate ANYONE on this forum - sure I may argue with them - but this last comment proves my earlier point - you take it all way too seriously.

regards

NM

clevestinks
07-17-2005, 02:02 PM
I`m starting to believe that you guys are just on the wrong page. ICC is one of the smarter and well respected members here. I think the reason this has not ended is because you don`t understand each other. At least this is the Blast Furnace.

It is nice to see some old fashion debate , amongst knowledgable posters.

ironcitychef
07-18-2005, 10:47 AM
Again, let me say that I didn't think that my original post would fire you two up like that, but you kept posting back in my direction. So I'll fire back. Despite how you read it, my original take on Brown is the same. He did all you guys asked plus more, was a horrible cap casuality(still believe if he was worth resigning you could have made something work in time), and deserved a better deal thus backing up the original post of the Pats are lucky to still have him. Sad that your turning it into internet message board history 101 and a psychatrist office that defined the "real" me lead to your confusion of my original post which only wondered if Troy would be as willing to pull double duty again this year. I am sorry I'm such a horrible Steelers/football fan to question the almight Patriots front office brain trust. Just in case you don't believe me...

I just don't see Trot laying it on both sides this year after getting left out in the off season the way he did. I think some NE players might think about it too with Seymour barking the way he is.


spelling error and all.

Livinginthe past
07-18-2005, 11:45 AM
Ok, well look, you as good as said in the other thread that you are not here to

a. learn anything or,

b. debate anything sensibly

This may well be the Blast furnace - but when it comes to Pats players and their contracts I think you will find Pats fans are the authority.
I wouldnt question any moves your Front Office made without listening to your retorts.

Maybe someone can clear this up for me.....Clevestinks or someone.

Is the idea of this thread to keep repeating a belief you hold - then when one someone challenges it - to put your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalalalala' ??

If it is, then im not sure I see any real value.

regards

NM

ironcitychef
07-18-2005, 11:50 AM
Sorry didn't read an answer in the load of crap you just typed, but do you think Brown will go the extra mile again as he did last year when he is getting a few million less than he did last year and knows he could get cut anyways? The few million is an approximate value, I am still trying to dig up the two contracts locked up at the Pats home office. Again, as the authority, could you provide us the numbers for the two contract years(as I and CS have asked)? To clarify again, my view is Brown is going to be a little hesitant to lay it all out again.

Dirtywater
07-18-2005, 12:24 PM
Sorry didn't read an answer in the load of crap you just typed, but do you think Brown will go the extra mile again as he did last year when he is getting a few million less than he did last year and knows he could get cut anyways? The few million is an approximate value, I am still trying to dig up the two contracts locked up at the Pats home office. Again, as the authority, could you provide us the numbers for the two contract years(as I and CS have asked)? To clarify again, my view is Brown is going to be a little hesitant to lay it all out again.


Brown is a weird guy. Not bad weird, good weird. He is the anti-modern day athlete. He is the kind of guy who will play harder if anything this year.

The fanbase was up in arms about him being cut. To quote the current phrase-o-the decade, "Don't hate the player, hate the game." One can't fault Pats managment for the business, fault the current NFL system. The have rules and they must be followed. Now sure there are harder cuts than others, but the cap is the cap. I know you've said we could have made it work, but I don't know the numbers and I have to resort to Pats managment on that.

And lastly, Troy is Pat through and through. He again was offered more money and a larger role with New Orleans. If it was about that he would have gone there. To quote Troy, Haslett was really aggressive in his pursuit.

It's not that I don't see your point, but I think you are approaching it from an outsiders POV. I hope this sheds more light on the situation. Brown is a dying breed.

Livinginthe past
07-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Sorry didn't read an answer in the load of crap you just typed, but do you think Brown will go the extra mile again as he did last year when he is getting a few million less than he did last year and knows he could get cut anyways? The few million is an approximate value, I am still trying to dig up the two contracts locked up at the Pats home office. Again, as the authority, could you provide us the numbers for the two contract years(as I and CS have asked)? To clarify again, my view is Brown is going to be a little hesitant to lay it all out again.

Ho Hum, Ok firstly you say you 'didn't read an answer in the load of crap' I typed....perhaps the best way of getting an answer would be to actually ask a question IronCity.
I checked - there isn't a single question in the previous post.

Anyways here are the details you were after - Troy Brown was due to be paid a $2.5 million option bonus plus $2.5 million base salary making a total of 5 million for THIS year under the terms of his PREVIOUS contract.

Troy was paid approximately 2.25 million last year in total salary.

The NEW CONTRACT he has signed is a 1 year deal worth $765,000 including a $35,000 signing bonus. Accounting for a work-out bonus Browns salary cap charge for 2005 is going to be approx $805,000.

Since the team did not pick up the option on Browns contract in early March the team is not carrying over any 'dead money' from a previous deal.

There is also a possibility, that Browns deal could now qualify for the veterans minimum exception meaning it would count as only $455,000 toward this years cap.

Ok now for the math :

The difference between what Troy was due from his original contract and what he is getting from his NEW contract is approx $4.2million

The difference between what Troy got paid LAST YEAR compared to THIS year is approx $1.4million.

From all this you can see why his previous contract was completely unworkable - these contracts are often back-loaded with money the players never see anyway.

Right, now for the opinion bit - there is nothing in any article or interview I have read about Troy Brown that leads me to believe that he wouldn't do ANYTHING in his power in order to further the teams cause.

What you have to realise is that Troy bleeds red, white and blue - the Pats are the only team he has ever known and is likely to EVER know.
There was an offer on the table from New Orleans (by no means a bottom feeding team) to become their guaranteed 3rd reciever (he has recieved no such assurances from the Pats) and of course the extra money that goes with it.

What we read in the media about Troy being 'hung out to dry' is often mindless 'off season' speculation - there was more than likely a continuous dialogue betwen the team and himself regarding his situation.

If Troy felt that he was being disrespected by the Pats treatment of him he could have easily taken the money on offer to him at the Saints or another possible team if they had come in.

I hope this answers your question satisfactorily.

regards

NM

ironcitychef
07-19-2005, 10:33 AM
Ahem...thank you. While I think he is missing a little more money because they didn't want to pick up the option, we have established is is making less while he did more than anyone. I just feel that your challenges this year are not your rosters or positions cause you are stacked, but much like Shannahan always feeling he can make a rb out of anyone, all your decisions will come out as gold. You may end up being right on again on this, but I know it will be a thing to watch about how you all keep either the team together or try to reload.

PS - while not bottomfeeding, isn't a team rumored to be moving to LA a bit of a risk for a player used to such stability?

clevestinks
07-19-2005, 04:37 PM
I don`t doubt Troys loyalty to his team. We have a couple players like that ourselves, Bettis and Ward.
And I know most players with long contracts, that takes them into thier thirties, don`t always expect to finish the original contract. But Browns, does seem to be one helluva pay cut. If New Orleans offer wasn`t way , way more then I wouldn`t have left either. I was surprised to hear that there wasn`t any other offers.
Like I said before, "The Pats are Lucky that he decided to come back" mainly as a team leader. You cannot put a price tag on what he probably does for the younger players.

Livinginthe past
07-20-2005, 06:04 AM
Yeah, you are right of course, it is one helluva pay cut. I do believe, however, that Troy is making a nice slice of action on the side from local companies. I couldn't say how much - but probably enough to negate a move to New Orleans.
You cant have too many veteran team leaders - the team seems packed with them.

ITS PIG-SKIN BABY!

NM

ironcitychef
07-20-2005, 10:46 AM
To kinda change up the topic LITP, what do you think a player would have to do on the PATS to get that bonus that Troy didn't do? Just be younger or such? I think that is what sits uneasy with me. He did double duty cause he had a shot at that bonus(and true to help the team win), but now players know that not only are their contracts not a sure thing, but the criteria for that bonus money isn't so easy either. Just think it sucks cause those low $$$ players got bonuses based on # of plays invloved or whatever from the NFL and I don't think Troy was in that either. He should get a cut over a rookie that started half the season, yeah? Also if the huge contract is out cause of age or ability, you saying only 35K of bonus thank you money? If I was a NE player with a contract coming up I would double check my fine print before buying that car right? Was it you or DW that said losing the AFCC does eliminate all that roster bonus money problems! LOL.

Livinginthe past
07-20-2005, 11:15 AM
That bonus was part of an old contract of which this year was optional.
The Patriots decided not take take up that option because it would have cost them $5mil altogther.
The fact is that Troy done double duty because he is a team player and also because he has slipped down the WR hierarchy at the Pats - he is probably 4th/5th receiver right now.
Its impossible to be sure, but had Troy refused to do double duty I really doubt if he would have seen enough playing time as a receiver to hit his bonus targets anyway - our injury probs at WR were not quite so pressing, and BB would not have been too impressed with a player who has the ability to help the team and refuses.

What really lost Troy his bonus was in fact our injury crisis at DB.

Im sure that Belichick and Pioli have some complex formula balancing the needs of the team, the potential play time of the player and available cash, to work out exactly what they can pay a player.

Its good Troy is back at a discount rate...but do we really need him? No probably not - and certainly not at the value of his previous contract.
The odds of us being caught so short in the secondary again are pretty small - therefore we would have been paying too much money for a what is basically 4th/5th receiver.

This sounds harsh but thats how they operate.

On your second point, I agree that this could come back and bite the Pats in the ass - if players perceive the Head Office's strategy to be unfair then they will attempt to play hard ball.

Two things are currently stopping this happening

1. The Patriots keep winning - the thought of another ring is enough to keep alot of players pacified when it comes to contract time.

2. We have alot of strength and depth at key positions - this weakens the bargaining power of the player - see Richard Seymour.

Speaking of Seymour - he could hold out I guess, but we are shooting in the dark on this one as I have no idea what sort of negotiations are happening.

The problem with a successful side is that everyone wants a raise - in the salary cap era not everyone can have one.

ITS PIG-SKIN BABY!

NM

clevestinks
07-20-2005, 03:33 PM
I do agree with ICC here. If anyone deserved to be treated better, it would have to be Troy Brown. double duty when his team needed it. I`m not a Pats fan , but I probably will root for Troy brown, not against the Steelers. Because he is what football should be about.

Someone we haven`t mentioned in any thread is Tim Brown and his retiring. I didn`t realize that he is also along the line of a Troy Brown, or Jerome Bettis. After seeing some of the specials on this guy. He is a class act.

ironcitychef
07-23-2005, 11:39 AM
Didn't want to get things stirred up, but wanted to check another stat with you NE fans. Heard a NE fan(??was looking forawrd to another SB win and greatest dynasty ever label) on the radio say he was upset because a couple of years ago Troy had redone his contract for the good of the team and his money was pushed toward the end of the contract. Team this with the fact they didn't end up giving him the bonuses plus saying he wasn't the same player cause of age or injury(even though he played extra downs on both sides), and I still say it was a bad move. Just wanted that second source on if he gave up money for the good of the team. If so, he must really love the Pats and in my opinion is getting abused.

Dirtywater
07-23-2005, 01:00 PM
Didn't want to get things stirred up, but wanted to check another stat with you NE fans. Heard a NE fan(??was looking forawrd to another SB win and greatest dynasty ever label) on the radio say he was upset because a couple of years ago Troy had redone his contract for the good of the team and his money was pushed toward the end of the contract. Team this with the fact they didn't end up giving him the bonuses plus saying he wasn't the same player cause of age or injury(even though he played extra downs on both sides), and I still say it was a bad move. Just wanted that second source on if he gave up money for the good of the team. If so, he must really love the Pats and in my opinion is getting abused.


Ironcity, IMHO you are making way to big a deal of this. It's not like Troy is paying the Pats to play. It's a game. He gets a healthy salary over the average Joe who works for a living to play a game he loves.

In NE, this is a non-issue. You can't pay and be loyal to everyone. You just can't. Again, hate the system, not the ones who have to abide by the system if that makes sense. It's kind of funny how obsessed you are with this. It was an issue for a day or two once he was cut. Belichick still refers to Brown as the best leader he has ever had. Selfless player who will do anything for the team. Doesn't mean he is the best player, but he exeplifies what a player should be. There is only so much money in the pot. If we want to keep winning, hard choices need to be made. Once he re-signed, it wasn't even thought of.

I learned my lesson after the Celtics Big 3. We kept them due to loyalty and as a result we are still suffereing to this day for those bad decisions. Yes in a Candyland/Puppy Dog kind of way it would be nice to pay everyone the max amount, but it is just not possible. Not only that, but Brown had a chance to make more money if that what was so important to him but it wasn't. Every team will face these decisions and you just can't keep everyone. It is a business. Because of his salary, we cannow sign other players who may make an impact on our way to a 4th ring. To Troy, that is more important than the personal goal of more cash. He also makes up a lot of money in endorsments in NE. He is going to be a figure here, making plenty of acsh, for years to come as a fan and media favorite. You need to consider that as well.

This is not meant to anger you, just to again remind you of the situation at hand. When I speak to Troy I'll let him know that the Ironcitychef is concernened about him. I'm sure he'll get a smile. :)

ironcitychef
07-25-2005, 04:29 PM
Dude, take it easy and read the post again. Didn't want to ruffle just wanted to know if you had anything that said "Brown redoes contract for betterment of team" showing that money was to be postponed then Brown ends up getting the short end. I was not aware of this as a Steeler fan. So I made a post to you all as NE fans. Now if you want me to pull up an article on how the Steelers don't redo contracts in the middle then redoing Tommy's contract fine, I'll do that. But since I only asked for one little bit of homework, as you all are the authority on all things NE, then don't bust my chops cause I just wanted to double check whether you promised the money to Troy or not. Not obsessed, just thought it was a new angle that we might have been able to discuss in a rational way. Maybe since I tried to involve a NE fan that makes it impossible.

Dirtywater
07-25-2005, 04:58 PM
Dude, take it easy and read the post again. Didn't want to ruffle


You know what sucks about message boards? The true tone of a poster can never be put through. I really wasn't upset over your post at all. Sorry if it came across that way. If anything, it was more laughter on my part based on your "obsession." :)

ironcitychef
07-26-2005, 02:13 AM
Was hoping so cause I've been busy and can barely keep up on all new posts let alone a battle in the BF.:) Anyway, Troy aside just wanted to discuss it as a case study type thing cause we have asked some Steelers to restructure deals but I don't think we have cut any yet...combined with TO's stance on his contract I kinda just wanted lean this thread toward players vs. management in the NFL versus say you and your boss in the outside world. Say if you got promised money and didn't get it would you stay loyal? Two things, I guess just asking to watch other players deals and restructures versus the teams return commitment to them in future years(maybe in the modern cap era stuff like this becomes the new norm?), and two just wanted to know if Troy really did restructure the first time to save NE some room as the fan on the radio said(like to know all my facts, the real me can't sleep not knowing). If you come across anything it would be great on a personal "obession" note. Thanks DW.

BlitzburghRockCity
07-26-2005, 07:57 PM
You know what sucks about message boards? The true tone of a poster can never be put through. I really wasn't upset over your post at all. Sorry if it came across that way. If anything, it was more laughter on my part based on your "obsession." :)


thats why we love emoticons! :D :cool: :)

ironcitychef
07-27-2005, 10:42 AM
This is what intrigues me about this is it could set the tone for NFL in the future. NHL brought the players to their knees(granted they needed it), the NBA is starting age limits, and the MLB is buried in drug talks. The NFL had it good but considering its contracts are not sure money, it could be important to watch how these cap games start to take effect on labor negotations with more players sitting out, Drew representing them with a hard line, just the business side of football playing itself out. Has made the offseason intersting to me.

Dirtywater
07-27-2005, 11:42 AM
This is what intrigues me about this is it could set the tone for NFL in the future. NHL brought the players to their knees(granted they needed it), the NBA is starting age limits, and the MLB is buried in drug talks. The NFL had it good but considering its contracts are not sure money, it could be important to watch how these cap games start to take effect on labor negotations with more players sitting out, Drew representing them with a hard line, just the business side of football playing itself out. Has made the offseason intersting to me.


Well that is for the NFLPA to fight. It's their deal. The thing that is different about the NFL is the 53 man roster, high risk of injury and the guarenteed signing bonuses. There is no way they are going to get guaranteed contracts. This will be Rosenhaus' lost fight.

hardwork
07-28-2005, 02:54 AM
"Alright then as a Pats fan, what is your take on asking Troy to do double duty, then leave him hanging come contract time? Who deserves the money more than Troy on your team?"

Troy Brown did his thing and the Patriots did theirs, and when all was said and done they got back together. It's just that simple. As far as double duty, if he's asked, he'll do it. That's just the way he is. I hope he isn't asked though. I think he has another good year at WR in him if they'll just use him situationaly. He can still get open.

ironcitychef
07-28-2005, 12:28 PM
to my NE buddies...I am watching the H. Ward talks as of late and I will be ready with an apology or similar statement of dissapointment if Ward must go elsewhere. Don't think it will happen, but the fact we didn't get it done on the first try leaves us open for involvement on this "lucky" thread if he does resign his contract. Lets just hope we don't have to cut him later, too.:) Also thanks for your input on my offseason "project" of players and their loyalty vs. salaries.

Livinginthe past
07-29-2005, 01:13 AM
Hey! you're welcome ICC - im sure we all enjoy having a little input on this forum.
I certainly dont think you owe anybody any apologies or explanations if Hines Ward doesn't sign - its the players and their agents who seem to grasp the salary cap and its implications about aswell as a penguin might grasp a wet fish!

I wish you luck in signing him up - I just hope you dont break too many traditions to get there - it sets a bad precedent for future salary negotiations.

Regards

NM

ironcitychef
07-29-2005, 09:20 AM
Oh, not for Ward but our organization. I think you could come to an agreement that he isn't the best but is so important to a team and as a special team guy player that despite the difference in signing bonuses so far we should be able to settle on something. So play hard ball with Plax, fine. Play it with Ward and I'll wonder what we are doing this year.

PS - as for traditions, we have always set a standard of redoing deals with one year left so it would be strange not to do it for ward(who deserves it), after we broke it for Tommy (who became our backup). Thats the standard I'm afraid of setting.