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83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 08:28 AM
Consider the source, at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if there is some truth. As another poster (Ambridge I believe?) on this site stated, I wouldn't be shocked if certain stories come out once Cowher is gone and living comfortably in his NC mansion.

ROONEYS FED UP WITH COWHER?

In the world of pro football, where successful deception from devices such as the play-action pass and the zone blitz can lead to good outcomes on the field, things often aren't what they appear to be off the field, either. Though we're not big on conspiracy theories, we've seen on too many occasions the simple reality that an inch or two beneath the surface of an article or a column lies agendas and motivations and off-the-record conversations conducted on triple-secret background.

That's why Gene Collier's item from Tuesday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette caught our eye. The headline declared, "Count Cowher Among Those Who Should Go." Strong stuff, especially since the Pittsburgh media, in our assessment, is typically supportive of the team they cover.

It's not an uncommon phenomenon in league circles. The Steelers are almost universally beloved in Western Pennsylvania. The locals buy the papers and watch the television stations and listen to the radio channels. They generally want pep rallies from the press, so they usually get pep rallies from the press. (Except when they don't want pep rallies from the press, and Bob Smizik is a master, in our view, of gauging the pulse of the Steelers faithful in this regard.)

So our initial reaction (as mentioned in a One-Liner on Tuesday night) was to suspect that someone higher up in the organization than Cowher has decided that it's time to give the long-time head coach a push toward his long-rumored "retirement" from the team.

The story traces to the early offseason, when Cowher and his wife bought a $2.5 million house in Raleigh, North Carolina. Later, eyebrows raised when Cowher refused to make a commitment beyond the 2006 season, and momentum grew when former Steelers running back Jerome Bettis opined based on his conversations with Cowher that the Chin was ready pack it in.

Collier's column speaks of the looming departure as if it's a done deal, and we can't recall any prior item in which a member of the Pittsburgh media spoke in such frank terms about the situation. In explaining the inability of Cowher to find a way to get his team adequately geeked for a big game against the Ravens in Baltimore, Collier writes: "Maybe that's because, along with his other bags, his psychological bag is packed for North Carolina. Normally Cowher is an intense stew of emotions, at least on game day, but this season, a passersby who had once just hoped to avoid the spittle is now more likely to hear the unsung James Taylor lyrics:

In my mind, I'm goin' to Carolina.
Can't ya just feel the sunshine
Can't you just feel the moonshine
Maybe just like a friend of mine
It hit me from behind
Yes I'm goin' to Carolina in my mind."

A reader has since alerted us to the fact that Collier is a co-writer of "The Chief," a popular one-man play about Steelers founder Art Rooney, which debuted in 2003. (The show made its final run in January 2006.) In our opinion, the warm feelings that Collier's co-creation likely engendered with the Rooney family likely has earned for him most favored nation status -- and it likely has put him in a position to mirror the sentiments coming from the top of the team, especially on important issues like whether they want the head coach to come back in 2007.

Our guess? The Rooneys (though they'd never say so publicly) feel disrespected and, to an extent, betrayed by a coach behind whom they stood loyally, and paid handsomely, even when the team wasn't a contender. Sure, he (finally) delivered a championship, but he has not handled his apparent lame-duck status very well, and if Collier is writing that he thinks Cowher has short-timers disease, our guess is that the Rooneys think so, too.

And we think that they've now had enough of Cowher, and that someone from the family has either said this to Collier -- or he's got a sufficiently clear pipeline to already know it.

www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

Infamix
12-01-2006, 08:41 AM
I would not be surprised

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 08:46 AM
"They generally want pep rallies from the press, so they usually get pep rallies from the press."

If there are any truth's to this story, the above statement is one of them.

Atlanta Dan
12-01-2006, 09:40 AM
I concur the Rooneys probably are not happy they went to bat for Cowher in 1999 and 2003, after which he finally does not crash in the playoffs and proceeds to play Hamlet oin whether he wants to be the coach. Combine that with Cowher wanting top $ (which is his right to ask for) and the Rooneys may have divorced Cowher before he divorced them.
Dan Rooney's uncharacteristic blast on the refs after the Atlanta game leads me to believe this is not a happy front office team these days.

On the related points in the post on how the Steelers are covered, the Pittsburgh writers publish what sells, as does any media outlet that needs to pay bills.

In New York rip jobs sell, so that is how it is written. OTOH, in Atlanta the media is expected to be more supportive (hell, the Governor of Georgia went off on the Atlanta Journal Constitution this fall because a headline after Georgia lost to Tennessee was regarded as disrespectful to the Dawgs) so the Braves, Falcons, and (especially) UGA usually get a free ride.

As the initial post states, the Pittsburgh media appears to be supportive when the Steelers are doing well and in attack mode on the rare occasions the Steelers have had a rotten year. I believe it reflects pretty good coverage - if you read Ed.B. of the P-G, especially his online stuff, he is not constantly waving pom-poms for the Black & Gold.

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 09:46 AM
if you read Ed.B. of the P-G, especially his online stuff, he is not constantly waving pom-poms for the Black & Gold.

I admit, Ed is one of the very few and I'll throw in Cook. With Ed, it led him to Cowher's doghouse a few years back (big surprise there). He's calmed down.

The homerism goes beyond the papers. Bob Pompeani (tv), Tunch Ilkin (tv/radio), Wolf (tv/radio), Labriola (papers/tv) are all cheerleaders no matter the situation. Tunch tends to focus on what the opposing teams are doing right instead of focusing/criticizing on what we are doing wrong. Pompeani brings up last seasons XL win any time Cowher's decisions/situation is brought up in a negative light. Labriola is "Chief Homer" who I don't bother even reading anymore because I'm affraid he will start handing out laced kool-aid to all his readers/viewers.

Atlanta Dan
12-01-2006, 10:15 AM
I do not have access to Pittsburgh TV but it sounds like Atlanta TV sports news.

With such outlets as ESPN and NFL Network local sports TV is a backwater that needs to make nice with the local teams so they can get their cliched video sound bites.

Hines0wnz
12-01-2006, 11:45 AM
I'm surprised....yet, I'm not surprised. Cowher is so gone it is not even funny.

BigDuke6
12-01-2006, 11:59 AM
Although far removed from Steel-town I read PPG online everyday and am quite familiar with the likes of Stavran, Cook, Smizik, Collier and even Madden. Madden is an animal who by all accoiunts would fit nicely on a NY city team beat. The others I see give good solid coverage to the team. Smizik and Collier give stern criticism where it is warranted.
My question is this, how many of us saw this coming at the beginning of the season ??
I didnt. Not at all. Anybody out there who did ??

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 12:08 PM
Although far removed from Steel-town I read PPG online everyday and am quite familiar with the likes of Stavran, Cook, Smizik, Collier and even Madden. Madden is an animal who by all accoiunts would fit nicely on a NY city team beat. The others I see give good solid coverage to the team. Smizik and Collier give stern criticism where it is warranted.
My question is this, how many of us saw this coming at the beginning of the season ??
I didnt. Not at all. Anybody out there who did ??

While Madden and Savern have nothing to do with the PPG, Cook I will give credit (as I did in my previous post). Even though I don't listen to Madden, articles I've read by the guy have convinced me that he is a Steeler hater. When we are at the top of our game he will find a negative. He's a Penguin man and a straight up bum in my opinion.

Smizik will at times put out a legitimate article pertaining to the Steelers (such as this one http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06331/741504-194.stm) but overall he tends to sport the B&G goggles in my opinion (Penguins, Steelers, Pirates in particular).

Savern is one of the few (Steigerwald (both), Cook, Bouchette, Prisuta) who is not affraid to tell it like it is no matter a teams "status" in this city. I'm not asking for 24/7 negativity nor am I asking for 24/7 positivity. A happy medium would be nice.

HometownGal
12-01-2006, 12:12 PM
Sorry guys, but I think this is nothing but a load of speculative hooey. Look at Cowher's record, and all of his accomplishments since the Rooneys hired the man back in 1992 - it speaks for itself. Not too many organizations out there who can boast of such success in a 15 year span.

Ed Bouchette did a clip last night on KDKA's 6:00 news (Steigerwald's sports beat) and stated that he has been hearing some very positive things around the Steelers offices about Cowher returning. He didn't go into detail about what he heard, but he did say "don't be surprised if there is a contract extension after the season ends." If I can find a link, I will provide the same.

coachspeak33
12-01-2006, 12:13 PM
I live in Ohio (near Browns town)..... to keep my mind right i refuse to drink water from the tap..... anyway, the local media is very different than that of the steel city... here the pro teams really only deal w/ their flagships.... so the other sports talk radio stations, local 6:00 news teams, ect. seem to be more objective

No coach/executive for any team in this town comes even close to having the kinda stroke around here that cowher and the rooneys have over local print and talk media

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 12:20 PM
I concur the Rooneys probably are not happy they went to bat for Cowher in 1999 and 2003, after which he finally does not crash in the playoffs and proceeds to play Hamlet oin whether he wants to be the coach. Combine that with Cowher wanting top $ (which is his right to ask for) and the Rooneys may have divorced Cowher before he divorced them.
Dan Rooney's uncharacteristic blast on the refs after the Atlanta game leads me to believe this is not a happy front office team these days.

Good points. I find it hard to believe all is coming up roses in that FO when it comes to Cowher's "situation". Add that to our dismal season.

And coachspeak33, consider yourself fortunate.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-01-2006, 12:26 PM
Sorry guys, but I think this is nothing but a load of speculative hooey. Look at Cowher's record, and all of his accomplishments since the Rooneys hired the man back in 1992 - it speaks for itself. Not too many organizations out there who can boast of such success in a 15 year span.

Ed Bouchette did a clip last night on KDKA's 6:00 news (Steigerwald's sports beat) and stated that he has been hearing some very positive things around the Steelers offices about Cowher returning. He didn't go into detail about what he heard, but he did say "don't be surprised if there is a contract extension after the season ends." If I can find a link, I will provide the same.

Well I agree that alot of organizations would have killed to have the success the Steelers have enjoyed under Cowher in his 15 years. The Steelers making the play-offs most years is great.

But Cowher's lack of success in AFC title games also speaks for itself. True the patience of sticking by Cowher finally paid off last year. But still 2-4 in AFC title games which 5 of those games were in Pittsburgh isn't impressive.

Change has to come sometime and I think its time to make a change.

coachspeak33
12-01-2006, 12:30 PM
IMO, cowher is the only one that could dictate as to when the time was right for a change.... and that is exactly what he did when he balked at making necessary personnel decisions leading up to and during the preseason.... once the season came he realized he was screwed... and from that point on he has mailed it in......PERIOD.

coachspeak33
12-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Simply put.... if enough smoke appears, begin lookin for the fire. And everyone from local media to national media to steeler fans to steeler haters acknowledge that more than any other time in his entire 14 yr tenure, Cowher seems like a completely different guy on the sidelines, our gameplanning/scheming seems completly foreign from anything in his past, and we have played lathergic more times this season than I ever could remember from one season.

And to make matters worse when he (cowher) is given the opportunity to set the record straight to remove this additional distraction, what does he do??? NOTHING, that is disappointing when your leader acts that way.

He is no longer the chin.... he is the mailman

Black@Gold Forever32
12-01-2006, 12:42 PM
Simply put.... if enough smoke appears, begin lookin for the fire. And everyone from local media to national media to steeler fans to steeler haters acknowledge that more than any other time in his entire 14 yr tenure, Cowher seems like a completely different guy on the sidelines, our gameplanning/scheming seems completly foreign from anything in his past, and we have played lathergic more times this season than I ever could remember from one season.

And to make matters worse when he (cowher) is given the opportunity to set the record straight to remove this additional distraction, what does he do??? NOTHING, that is disappointing when your leader acts that way.

He is no longer the chin.... he is the mailman

Nice posts. I agree Bill Cowher has mailed it in bigtime.

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 12:44 PM
Good points coachspeak33. I'm curious as to your opinion. Do you think there is some friction between the Rooney's and Cowher at this point in time?

coachspeak33
12-01-2006, 12:47 PM
I can see it now.... Gumbel and Collinsworth doing the thursday night game vs Cleveland

Gumbel:What do you think of the steelers calling two consecutive draw plays on 2nd and 3rd and long?

Collinsworth:I competed against the "old" bill cowher and the "old" bill would be fuming.

Gumbel: Can the guys in the truck get a shot of coach cowher? I want to see some vintage Cowher Power, ya know spit filying, and oh my goodness that chin that they love in the steel city.

Collinsworth: There he is. Oh wait a minute! Its not the chin.... its... oh my.... i never thought i would see this.

Gumbel: thats why they call him the mailman here in pittsburgh.... he's mailing it in!!!!!

coachspeak33
12-01-2006, 12:51 PM
83steelers43,
Based on how coach cowher has communicated with his players this season... my guess is that he and ownership probably arent 100% on the same page.

But I will say this... if i had to bet money on it.... my decision would be driven w/ the understanding and belief that this organization will always be "the rooney's".... and at the end of the day... they run shit on Art Rooney Ave.

I love Bill but boy I am both shocked and disappointed in him.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-01-2006, 12:54 PM
"I love Bill but boy I am both shocked and disappointed in him".

So true and I think most Steelers fans still like Bill Cowher but at the sametime I think some like myself and you we're disappointed in him also.

fansince'76
12-01-2006, 01:42 PM
I haven't lived in the Pittsburgh area since I was a kid, so I'm not up on the local gossip there. However, I have heard rumors that Cowher and Art Rooney II don't exactly see eye-to-eye. Any truth to this? Thanks.

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 01:49 PM
However, I have heard rumors that Cowher and Art Rooney II don't exactly see eye-to-eye. Any truth to this? Thanks.

Speaking for myself and living in Pittsburgh, I've never heard that rumor. At this point in time though, it wouldn't surprise me.

X-Terminator
12-01-2006, 05:49 PM
The article is from profootballtalk.com's rumor mill, which has about as much credibility with me as an article on the Steelers in the Cleveland Plain-Dealer's sports editorial page, assuming they have one. I take this article with a total grain of salt, and I find it hard to believe that the Rooneys would want Cowher gone less than a year removed from a championship season. Until I hear it directly from the Rooneys or a Steelers' beat writer like Ed Bouchette, I cannot and will not believe it.

What I don't understand is why so many of you are so quick to believe something like this, and have an obvious need to throw Cowher under the bus after one bad season. Many of you are pointing to a lack of emotion as justification...tell me, how many of you who are over or near the age of 50 have the same "fire" you had 20 years ago? And I assume none of you have coached professional football for more than 20 seasons, which in itself is a grind.

But then again, here is the "what have you done for me lately" mentality coming to the forefront...again. And I hope he does stick around and sign a contract extension, just so that I can get a laugh out of all the backpedaling that will surely be going on here.

fansince'76
12-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Speaking for myself and living in Pittsburgh, I've never heard that rumor. At this point in time though, it wouldn't surprise me.

Thanks - considering how easy going the Rooneys in general seem to be, I found it a bit hard to believe.

SteelCzar76
12-01-2006, 06:03 PM
Okay Fam,
Let's talk in terms of "hard math". Mr Rooney is first and foremost a buisnessman. And Coach's body of work "as a whole" during his tenure (though not without it's blemishes),.....has been very good for "BUISNESS". Many talk of how "It's time for change". (as it was with Chuck Knoll)
But how can this be the case just ONE season removed from winning a World Ttle with a unit that wasn't even a shadow of our Dynasty era teams in regards to abundance of elite onfield talent ?
Mr Rooney does not lack "vision" nor wisdom,.....do you not remember that he stood by Coach when many called for his head after the 2003 season ? Let the "talking heads" of the media speculate until their hearts are content.
But it will have no effect upon Coach Cowher's job status with this organization. Nor his personal status with the Rooney family. (He's earned AT LEAST that RESPECT)
Bottom line,....... if Coach leaves it will be because he decides as much. But i would love nothing more than to see him return and reduce the voices of the the supposed "insiders" and any other detractors,....to that of absolutly humiliated silence. (Due in most part to the "Clown Shoe" sandwhich" they fed themselves)





"Hail Caesar,.........HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

fansince'76
12-01-2006, 06:15 PM
But how can this be the case just ONE season removed from winning a World Ttle with a unit that wasn't even a shadow of our Dynasty era teams in regards to abundance of elite onfield talent ?

IMO there hasn't been a truly great NFL team since the (gag) Cowboys of the early '90s. Plan B free agency killed the era of the dominant teams.

SteelCzar76
12-01-2006, 06:39 PM
IMO there hasn't been a truly great NFL team since the (gag) Cowboys of the early '90s. Plan B free agency killed the era of the dominant teams.


Exactly 76. This is my point. Coach has kept this franchise very competitive for the vast majority of his tenure in light of that fact,..... as well as the "spendthrift" nature of our organization. How can anyone deny the job that he's done,.....the success that he's had,..... with so many squads filled with majority overachievers with marginal league level talent.
I have less of an appetite for failure than most. And this season has been just as hard to stomach as any other time we've failed to take the crown. But i'm not foolish enough to attempt to make a "Sacrificial Lamb" of one whom is a Lion (Coach). For the sake of of a "Hot Scoop"/Gossip (media) or the desire to appear "informed".




"Hail Caesar,.......HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

83-Steelers-43
12-01-2006, 08:36 PM
Thanks - considering how easy going the Rooneys in general seem to be, I found it a bit hard to believe.

No problem at all. IMO, while the Rooney's come off as laid back, they are not suckers. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there is some tension in the FO. Between this pathetic season (not expecting back to back SB wins, but this is pathetic) and having to deal with Cowher's "situation", I wouldn't be surprised if things in the FO are just a tad bit shaky. Just my opinion.

fansince'76
12-01-2006, 10:23 PM
Exactly 76. This is my point. Coach has kept this franchise very competitive for the vast majority of his tenure in light of that fact,..... as well as the "spendthrift" nature of our organization. How can anyone deny the job that he's done,.....the success that he's had,..... with so many squads filled with majority overachievers with marginal league level talent.

I couldn't agree more Czar - we'd have at least one more Lombardi (and very possibly 2 or 3) if we would have had a bona fide QB between Bradshaw and Ben.

tony hipchest
12-01-2006, 10:40 PM
I couldn't agree more Czar - we'd have at least one more Lombardi (and very possibly 2 or 3) if we would have had a bona fide QB between Bradshaw and Ben.cowher lost big games to the likes of aikman, elway, and brady (twice) with qb's like o'donnell, stewart (twice), and a rookie ben. swap qb's with the same gameplans in those big games and cowher has atleast 4 rings (steelers special teams gave the pats 2 td's in 2001 and brady was knocked out).

BigDuke6
12-02-2006, 03:37 AM
cowher lost big games to the likes of aikman, elway, and brady (twice) with qb's like o'donnell, stewart (twice), and a rookie ben. swap qb's with the same gameplans in those big games and cowher has atleast 4 rings (steelers special teams gave the pats 2 td's in 2001 and brady was knocked out).

And dont forget the wind was blowing in some of those losses, and it was cold, and the turf wasnt very good, and the sun was in his eyes, and it was too hot, and........

clevestinks
12-02-2006, 07:25 AM
Sorry guys, but I think this is nothing but a load of speculative hooey. Look at Cowher's record, and all of his accomplishments since the Rooneys hired the man back in 1992 - it speaks for itself. Not too many organizations out there who can boast of such success in a 15 year span.

Ed Bouchette did a clip last night on KDKA's 6:00 news (Steigerwald's sports beat) and stated that he has been hearing some very positive things around the Steelers offices about Cowher returning. He didn't go into detail about what he heard, but he did say "don't be surprised if there is a contract extension after the season ends." If I can find a link, I will provide the same.

I agree! The Rooneys have way more class than anyone in the entire league. If they had any problems with Cowher, they would not let on anyway. Everyone has an opinion though. Two head coaches in 37 years. Pretty good stuff there,

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 07:29 AM
they would not let on anyway.

That, I agree with. The Rooney's would never come out and say that there is tension in the FO between so and so. It's not the Rooney way.

Livinginthe past
12-02-2006, 11:14 AM
It seems odd that some posters are so against genuine debate regarding Bill Cowher.

No-one is saying that all his past achievements mean nothing, or even that he should leave if he was truly motivated to stay, its just that alot of fans seem to believe his heart isn't in the gig anymore - and that does a disservice to the Steeler franchise and its fans.

I am reasonably sure that if Cowher came out and signed a new multi-year contract tomorrow most posters would be happy - even those who have been critical of his performance this year.

What they dont want is him 'hanging round' for the last year of his contract, just to 'see it out'.

I think thats reasonable enough.

NM

Atlanta Dan
12-02-2006, 11:39 AM
I can't believe we're seriously discussing Bill Cowher this way. Bill freakin' Cowher, one of the best, winningest, most beloved coaches of all time? The one who lead us to victory just last year? The one who consistently got us into the playoffs over his tenure, making the Steelers one of the most feared and respected teams in the league?

Wow, talk about ungrateful... Maybe we should be like all the other teams in the league. They trade around head coaches like neighborhood hoochies. I really want to be like them. (heavy sarcasm)

With regard to the Steelers being uniquely loyal, just remember you are talking about a front office that let Franco Harris walk when he overpriced his value at the end of his career.

It is a business; contracts for players and coaches are based on paying the market rate for anticipated future performance. Cowher has had 2 bad years out of his last 4, has not appeared to have his typical fire this season, and has something going on with his family having packed up and moved to North Carolina.

Do I think he has been a great coach - absolutely. Do I think he will continue to be a great coach if he does not take a break ? - not for sure. Do I think it may be time for an amicbale parting of the ways - quite possibly.

Under those circumstances, I do not believe the Steelers owners and fans should beg him to take a blank check and fill in whatever he deems to be appropriate.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-02-2006, 11:56 AM
cowher lost big games to the likes of aikman, elway, and brady (twice) with qb's like o'donnell, stewart (twice), and a rookie ben. swap qb's with the same gameplans in those big games and cowher has atleast 4 rings (steelers special teams gave the pats 2 td's in 2001 and brady was knocked out).


Yea but Cowher also lost a big game to the likes of Stan ****ing Humphries. Sorry never going to let that one down. That loss is up there with the Super Bowl XXX loss. I just like how Cowher gets a free pass in this and yet the players get all the blame. Both coaches and players should take equal share of the blame for all those short comings in all of those let downs.

Atlanta Dan
12-02-2006, 12:15 PM
Atlanta Dan,
I personally think he will remain a great coach by the standards of the Rooney family and the Pittsburgh fans. It quite literally involves more than just whether you win or lose (especially in single seasons like this one).
The man is a credit to the organization and the league. He inspires fierce devotion from his players and fans. His values (and by extension the team's values) are a positive model for the NFL. The fact that he's a winning coach is secondary. Would you rather our Steelers became a work-release program like Dallas?

Now, I'm not suggesting that we should keep him against his will, but it just seems to me that certain fans turning on him because of one crappy season shows a serious lack of appreciation of what they have. I think they've been spoiled by the incredible success we've been blessed with over the last decade and a half.

Who knows? Maybe a losing streak is just what we need to thin the herd.

The fact that he is a winning coach is secondary??!!

In an otherwise well thought out post that statement leaps out - we are not talking Pee Wee football here where the important thing is that the kids enjoy playing together and build strong moral character.

If Cowher or anyone else ceases to be a winning coach in the NFL he is gone - there is nothing secondary about it.

I do not want the Steelers to be a work release program like Dallas nor do I want 1 playoff appearance in 8 seasons, which was the record during the last 8 years of Chuck Noll's tenure. I think Cowher probably should go not becuase of this season's record but because IMHO this season reflects that he is for whatever reason not on his game and appears to want a break.

NM

Black@Gold Forever32
12-02-2006, 12:19 PM
The fact that he is a winning coach is secondary??!!

In an otherwise well thought out post that statement leaps out - we are not talking Pee Wee football here where the important thing is that the kids enjoy playing together and build strong moral character.

If Cowher or anyone else ceases to be a winning coach in the NFL he is gone - there is nothing secondary about it.

I do not want the Steelers to be a work release program like Dallas nor do I want 1 playoff appearance in 8 seasons, which was the record during the last 8 years of Chuck Noll's tenure. I think Cowher probably should go not becuase of this season's record but because IMHO this season reflects that he is for whatever reason not on his game and appears to want a break.

NM

Nice posts and keep them up. You are one of the few that makes the most sense when it comes to Bill Cowher. I totally agree he appears he needs or wants a break. Understandable with all the pressure that comes with being an NFL coach for 15 years...especially in Pittsburgh. I like Bill Cowher put I really think a change is needed. Not that he isn't a good coach but change is good sometimes.

tony hipchest
12-02-2006, 12:34 PM
Yea but Cowher also lost a big game to the likes of Stan ****ing Humphries. Sorry never going to let that one down. That loss is up there with the Super Bowl XXX loss. I just like how Cowher gets a free pass in this and yet the players get all the blame. Both coaches and players should take equal share of the blame for all those short comings in all of those let downs.i left stan out because it was cowhers 1st trip to the champ game and he showed he could rebound the following season. thats the game where odonnell failed to anticipate foster getting open in the endzone, and he waited for foster to plant himself like a tree. the pass was delivered too late or else everyone believes cowher coached a good close game in that one.

to illustrate this point its not like marv levy called the perfect champ game vs. the raiders (51-3?) and then blew it 2 weeks later against the giants when norwood missed.

cowher called an excellent game in sb XXX. odonnell deserves ALL the blame in that loss. i dont think aikman, brady or elway had 2 passes that bad in their whole career, let alone in a big game.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-02-2006, 12:44 PM
i left stan out because it was cowhers 1st trip to the champ game and he showed he could rebound the following season. thats the game where odonnell failed to anticipate foster getting open in the endzone, and he waited for foster to plant himself like a tree. the pass was delivered too late or else everyone believes cowher coached a good close game in that one.

to illustrate this point its not like marv levy called the perfect champ game vs. the raiders (51-3?) and then blew it 2 weeks later against the giants when norwood missed.

cowher called an excellent game in sb XXX. odonnell deserves ALL the blame in that loss. i dont think aikman, brady or elway had 2 passes that bad in their whole career, let alone in a big game.

No need to go into detail about the AFC title game loss to the Chargers. I remember it quite well thank you. The game against the Chargers shouldn't have been that close. The Steelers laid an egg in that game like they did in most of the AFC title games under Bill Cowher. Five of six AFC title games in Pittsburgh and only two Super Bowl trips will always stick out in my mind. Bill Cowher is an Hall of Fame but for some reason the Steelers for the most part did not get it done in big games. You point fingers all you want at Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Special teams in the 2001 AFC title game against the Pats. But the constant in all of those games was Bill Cowher.

Atlanta Dan
12-02-2006, 12:50 PM
Yes, it's secondary. What makes the Pittsburgh program special isn't that we're consistent winners, it's that it's a program everybody wants to be part of. When those guys are developing their games in high school and college, dreaming about their future uniform, they're looking at getting on programs like Pittsburgh and Indianapolis, where they can feel proud wearing the uniform. You wonder why the crowd at away games is often composed of mainly Steeler fans *even when they play in Japan* it's because they're proud of what their team represents.
This manifests itself in ways that benefit the franchise even more than a winning season.

AFA the SB XXX thing...I was proud just to be there.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that - more power to your altruistic view of what makes a good coach, but success is pretty much a constant measuring stick in any occupation of which i am aware.

And as for being players dreaming of wearing a particular uniform, players identify with winning programs.

tony hipchest
12-02-2006, 01:08 PM
No need to go into detail about the AFC title game loss to the Chargers. I remember it quite well thank you. The game against the Chargers shouldn't have been that close. The Steelers laid an egg in that game like they did in most of the AFC title games under Bill Cowher. Five of six AFC title games in Pittsburgh and only two Super Bowl trips will always stick out in my mind. Bill Cowher is an Hall of Fame but for some reason the Steelers for the most part did not get it done in big games. You point fingers all you want at Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Special teams in the 2001 AFC title game against the Pats. But the constant in all of those games was Bill Cowher.the constant in all those games was also the rooneys, the city of pittsburgh, the fans. so if the blame goes all the way to the top why do the rooneys always get a pass?

and no need to get snotty. from what i remember the chargers got paid too. no way the 1st patriots loss shoulda been that close either but as it turns out we were beaten by a pretty good team.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-02-2006, 02:16 PM
the constant in all those games was also the rooneys, the city of pittsburgh, the fans. so if the blame goes all the way to the top why do the rooneys always get a pass?

and no need to get snotty. from what i remember the chargers got paid too. no way the 1st patriots loss shoulda been that close either but as it turns out we were beaten by a pretty good team.

The only blame the Rooney's should take is letting to many free agents walk away from some of those teams. But the Rooney's for the most part since Heinz Field has opened has kept the team together. So I find it very hard to fault the Rooney's at all the Steelers lack of success in big games under Bill Cowher. Why would the fans be blamed in anything? I guess the ****ing fans didn't cheer loud enough in the four AFC title game losses under Bill. Damn fans!!!!!!!!!!!

Beaten by a good team? Did I read this right? Tony you said some good things about the Pats? No kidding they are a good team but I think 3 Super Bowls in 4 years makes you great. Shocking you would say this about the Pats.

But if Bill Cowher was truely as good as most Steelers fan think or even half as good a coach as Bill Belichick then the Steelers would be the team of this decade instead of the Pats.

Atlanta Dan
12-02-2006, 02:34 PM
Dan,
Fair 'nuff, but I obviously disagree with your view about players identifying with winning programs. New England has maintained a winning program over the years, as has Buffalo and Dallas.

I don't see people lined up around the block willing to wear their jerseys. Just sayin'...

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


Do you have any data to back up your contention players prefer to play in Indy or Pittsburgh over New England or Dallas? My understanding has been that after they are drafted players either stay with that team or go wherever they get the most $$$. There is not exactly a rich tradition of players signing with the Steelers in free agency.

About the only objective criteria of popularity I can think of are TV ratings and NFL apparel sale. As for TV ratings, the Steelers always draw well and are through the roof this year, due to some extent to the fact they are defending SB champs. However, Dallas clearly has a national following, as do the Pats given their success this decade.

X-Terminator
12-02-2006, 02:49 PM
It seems odd that some posters are so against genuine debate regarding Bill Cowher.

No-one is saying that all his past achievements mean nothing, or even that he should leave if he was truly motivated to stay, its just that alot of fans seem to believe his heart isn't in the gig anymore - and that does a disservice to the Steeler franchise and its fans.

I am reasonably sure that if Cowher came out and signed a new multi-year contract tomorrow most posters would be happy - even those who have been critical of his performance this year.

What they dont want is him 'hanging round' for the last year of his contract, just to 'see it out'.

I think thats reasonable enough.

NM

Are you serious? If Cowher came out and signed a multi-year contract tomorrow, most of these posters would be ready to jump off the nearest bridge, judging by some of the things I've been reading here. It's also quite comical to read posts that pretty much guarantee that Cowher is retiring...as if they have a spy within the organization or know what's going on inside his head or clairvoyant or whatever. I also remember hearing and reading the same stuff in 2003, and wow...look what happened 2 years later? All we have now is SPECULATION. If Cowher does end up retiring...hey, that's fine. He's had a great career and has restored the tradition of winning to a proud franchise, a tradition that even Browns and Bengals fans would love to have despite how much they hate the Steelers. But putting the cart before the horse is just silly - NOTHING is guaranteed beyond the next game, or the next minute for that matter.

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 03:08 PM
It seems odd that some posters are so against genuine debate regarding Bill Cowher.

No-one is saying that all his past achievements mean nothing, or even that he should leave if he was truly motivated to stay, its just that alot of fans seem to believe his heart isn't in the gig anymore - and that does a disservice to the Steeler franchise and its fans.

I am reasonably sure that if Cowher came out and signed a new multi-year contract tomorrow most posters would be happy - even those who have been critical of his performance this year.

What they dont want is him 'hanging round' for the last year of his contract, just to 'see it out'.

I think thats reasonable enough.

NM

http://msn.techzine.nl/uploaded/icons/704.jpg

Rules of the Board:

A) Talk pertaining to the draft is not permitted. Punishment: 20 Lashings

B) Talk pertaining to Cowher's future and your opinions pertaining to Cowher's future are not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

C) Negative talk in any form is not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

Come on LITP, get with it. :cheers:

Anyways LITP, for the sake of fun (if that is permitted?). What does somebody from outside the Steeler fanbase think? Do you think he's gone after this season?

SteelCityMan786
12-02-2006, 03:18 PM
Rules of the Board:

A) Talk pertaining to the draft is not permitted. Punishment: 20 Lashings

B) Talk pertaining to Cowher's future and your opinions pertaining to Cowher's future are not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

C) Negative talk in any form is not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

Come on LITP, get with it. :cheers:

Don't forget the regular 10 rules. which mean BANS if caught.

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Don't forget the regular 10 rules. which mean BANS if caught.

Let me see if I can remember? :huh:

1) No streaking (wearing a sock doesn't matter).

2) If you puke, make sure you get it all in the bowl (game days are more lenient).

3) If you have to fart, go to the "Blast Furnace".

I forget the other seven...

HometownGal
12-02-2006, 04:18 PM
It seems odd that some posters are so against genuine debate regarding Bill Cowher.

No-one is saying that all his past achievements mean nothing, or even that he should leave if he was truly motivated to stay, its just that alot of fans seem to believe his heart isn't in the gig anymore - and that does a disservice to the Steeler franchise and its fans.

I am reasonably sure that if Cowher came out and signed a new multi-year contract tomorrow most posters would be happy - even those who have been critical of his performance this year.

What they dont want is him 'hanging round' for the last year of his contract, just to 'see it out'.

I think thats reasonable enough.

NM

LITP - I have no problem with "genuine debate". What I have a real problem with is all of this speculation and playing guessing games with such a serious subject, not so much by the fans, but by the sports media. We aren't talking about a coach here who has been a loser since he took over at the helm - we're talking about a man who not only has one of the winningest tenures in the NFL, but who coached his team successfully to a Super Bowl victory just last season for heavens sake!!! I chuckle at some of these fans who act like having our 4th under .500 season in 15 years and not going to the playoffs for only the 5th time in that same time span is the end of the world. Do you know how many other teams would love to have a ride like we Steelers fan have had??? How many other fans would sell their first-born (exag.) to have 11 above average seasons and 10 trips to the playoffs in 15 years??? Your Pats haven't even done that and I'm not saying this to razz you - it is fact.

So what if Cowher doesn't spit, bare his teeth like a rabid dog, pump his fists or jut that jaw anymore? If that is what the sports media and fans base this man's dedication and commitment to this team on, I think they seriously need to put the crack pipes down. Did anyone ever stop and think that Cowher is even more frustrated with this team than we as fans are? Go figure, huh? As a coach in any sport, you can teach the best technique, pound discipline into your players' heads, come up with the best game plan - but when all is said and done, you aren't the one out there making the plays or the mental mistakes. We're not talking about pee wee leaguers here - these are grown men over the age of 23 who shouldn't need their coach to lead them by their little handies. They need to let the helium out of their heads, transfer what their coaches have taught in practice onto the field each and every week and march their asses out there and get with the program instead of walking around with those swollen heads and chips on their shoulders that every other team out there is more than willing to knock off.

I don't believe for one single second that the Rooneys are "fed up" with Cowher. Fed up with what exactly? That the Steelers didn't repeat as Super Bowl champs this season, a feat that only 7 teams have accomplished in 40 years, the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70's accomplishing it twice? That the Steelers aren't going to the playoffs this year when they've gone 11 out of 15 seasons thus far? That Bill Cowher, a man who will be 50 years old in May, is exhibiting a more reserved behavior than he has in seasons past? How do any of us know that the Rooneys and Cowher haven't already discussed Cowher's future status with the Steelers and come to an agreement? The fact is - we don't.

I for one have not and do not question Bill Cowher's dedication and commitment to this team and I know I am in the minority around here which is fine. There are a whole host of reasons why I believe this team has fallen from its cloud which I have discussed openly on this board. We all have different reasons for believing what we do and I respect that, but I'd much rather take the wait and see approach and hear it from the man himself when he is good and ready to let his feelings be known rather than continue to play the game of Clue.

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 04:25 PM
Oh!!!! I remember the other seven............

4) You are not permitted to order a Primanti's Sandwich and take off a topping.

5) After a Steeler win folks on the board have to put down as many shots as there are members on the board at that point in time.

6) You are not permitted to ever wash your Terrible Towel.

7) You must believe that Brian Billick is in fact the anti-christ.

SteelCityMan786
12-02-2006, 05:21 PM
Oh!!!! I remember the other seven............

4) You are not permitted to order a Primanti's Sandwich and take off a topping.

5) After a Steeler win folks on the board have to put down as many shots as there are members on the board at that point in time.

6) You are not permitted to ever wash your Terrible Towel.

7) You must believe that Brian Billick is in fact the anti-christ.

8) When Marvin Lewis and the Bengals, and Peyton Manning and the Colts choke against you, you are obligated to make fun of them. lol

Where are the other 2. I thought I'd help you with one 83.

SteelCzar76
12-02-2006, 05:42 PM
LITP - I have no problem with "genuine debate". What I have a real problem with is all of this speculation and playing guessing games with such a serious subject, not so much by the fans, but by the sports media. We aren't talking about a coach here who has been a loser since he took over at the helm - we're talking about a man who not only has one of the winningest tenures in the NFL, but who coached his team successfully to a Super Bowl victory just last season for heavens sake!!! I chuckle at some of these fans who act like having our 4th under .500 season in 15 years and not going to the playoffs for only the 5th time in that same time span is the end of the world. Do you know how many other teams would love to have a ride like we Steelers fan have had??? How many other fans would sell their first-born (exag.) to have 11 above average seasons and 10 trips to the playoffs in 15 years??? Your Pats haven't even done that and I'm not saying this to razz you - it is fact.

So what if Cowher doesn't spit, bare his teeth like a rabid dog, pump his fists or jut that jaw anymore? If that is what the sports media and fans base this man's dedication and commitment to this team on, I think they seriously need to put the crack pipes down. Did anyone ever stop and think that Cowher is even more frustrated with this team than we as fans are? Go figure, huh? As a coach in any sport, you can teach the best technique, pound discipline into your players' heads, come up with the best game plan - but when all is said and done, you aren't the one out there making the plays or the mental mistakes. We're not talking about pee wee leaguers here - these are grown men over the age of 23 who shouldn't need their coach to lead them by their little handies. They need to let the helium out of their heads, transfer what their coaches have taught in practice onto the field each and every week and march their asses out there and get with the program instead of walking around with those swollen heads and chips on their shoulders that every other team out there is more than willing to knock off.

I don't believe for one single second that the Rooneys are "fed up" with Cowher. Fed up with what exactly? That the Steelers didn't repeat as Super Bowl champs this season, a feat that only 7 teams have accomplished in 40 years, the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70's accomplishing it twice? That the Steelers aren't going to the playoffs this year when they've gone 11 out of 15 seasons thus far? That Bill Cowher, a man who will be 50 years old in May, is exhibiting a more reserved behavior than he has in seasons past? How do any of us know that the Rooneys and Cowher haven't already discussed Cowher's future status with the Steelers and come to an agreement? The fact is - we don't.

I for one have not and do not question Bill Cowher's dedication and commitment to this team and I know I am in the minority around here which is fine. There are a whole host of reasons why I believe this team has fallen from its cloud which I have discussed openly on this board. We all have different reasons for believing what we do and I respect that, but I'd much rather take the wait and see approach and hear it from the man himself when he is good and ready to let his feelings be known rather than continue to play the game of Clue.





Very, Very well said Hometown. I don't believe that you or i,. or Slash, XT, Tone and anyone else that supports Coach,... is saying that he should be written a "blank check". Or that he has no responsibility for this season's meltdown.
But it's just a matter of keeping things in perspective. Bill Cowher remains one of the best coaches in the league. And we could do a lot worse without him. (As many other organizations have since 1992,....in respects to Coaching)
Many of us, (myself included) are very proud of this organization. And it's greatness is important to us. So it's somewhat understandable that some would go overboard with the "Burn Coach at the Stake" talk.
But i will stand by the opinion that such talk is irrationale and based on emotion.




"Hail Caesar,.......HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

polamalufan43
12-02-2006, 05:53 PM
8) When Marvin Lewis and the Bengals, and Peyton Manning and the Colts choke against you, you are obligated to make fun of them. lol

Where are the other 2. I thought I'd help you with one 83.

Ah, I should be writing these down. They are very helpful. I hope you remember the rest.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 06:26 PM
I don't believe that you or i,. or Slash, XT, Tone and anyone else that supports Coach,... is saying that he should be written a "blank check".

Nor do I think those who feel Cowher should "take a break" also feel that he is a horrible coach or that his past accomplishments should be ignored or that he is hated in general. This is a speculative conversation (hence, "Consider the source" on the very first post of this thread). Meaning, speculation with occur. Is there any harm in that? Will it effect the front office decision? lol. Christ ol' mighty, it's for the sake and enjoyment of conversation. If some have that big of a problem with it, they have options.

Let the PM's flow.....:coffee:

83-Steelers-43
12-02-2006, 06:32 PM
8) When Marvin Lewis and the Bengals, and Peyton Manning and the Colts choke against you, you are obligated to make fun of them. lol

Where are the other 2. I thought I'd help you with one 83.

Thank you brother. Much appreciated. :wink02:

tony hipchest
12-02-2006, 06:49 PM
Nor do I think those who feel Cowher should "take a break" also feel that he is a horrible coach or that his past accomplishments should be ignored or that he is hated in general. This is a speculative conversation (hence, "Consider the source" on the very first post of this thread). Meaning, speculation with occur. Is there any harm in that? Will it effect the front office decision? lol. Christ ol' mighty, it's for the sake and enjoyment of conversation. If some have that big of a problem with it, they have options.for the sake of enjoyment and conversation im still waiting for someone to offer up some alternatives. if cowher wants to quit then fine, i support him. i just dont see him as a quitter. i dont think the rooneys firing him is an option. if it was how they operate they woulda done it years ago.

so we have alot of people who recognize that the steelers have a problem (4-7 record) but where are the solutions? would sean payton have guided this team to a sb this year? how bout aRT SHELL.? e. mangina?

is jeff fisher more qualified to turn this thing around next year? should the rooneys low ball cowher just to go out and pay jeff his $6.5 mil market value?.
the offense and defense has been stale this year. is it time to scrap the "power running game" that the coaches have tried to force willie into and that has been our identity for years? is the age of the 3-4 zone blitz over in pittsburgh? after all if cowher is stale and non commited arent his assistants also? is russ grimm gonna be able to turn it around and offer a "fresh" voice? or will it be the same old message and m.o.?

the discussion is great but just saying cowher needs to go is getting stale without any alternatives being offered. so i ask all those who want to see him gone- who will lead the steelers to a SB win next season? converting our team to a 4-3 means cleaning house and starting from scratch with a leaning curve. it could set us back a few seasons. teaching ben a new offense will take some time and adjustment too. keeping wiz and grimm is pretty much the same as keeping cowher.

are steelerfans ready to stomach several years of mediocrity and rebuilding so we can hope a college coach like jimmy johnson can come in and turn everything around?

will part of the interview process for a new coach involv asking the canidate to hock a loogie and see how far he can spit it? will jutting jaw measurements be taken?

since our team may be without a coach next season, im down for any conversation that may lend insight to who the replacement will be and how they will be able to win the next 5 afc champ games we may or may not even go to.

Atlanta Dan
12-02-2006, 07:45 PM
Well, since I am sort of being quoted on this thread in other posts, I will attempt to respond.

Do I think the Bill Cowher that coached the Steelers from 1992-2005 should be replaced? No.

With the execption of the Pats version of Belichek I do not think there has been a better NFL head coach than Cowher since 1992. Shanahan has won 2 Super Bowls, but has not done much since Elway retired. Jimmy Johnson won 2 Super Bowls but did not do squat without the overwhelming talent he had in Dallas.

That having been said, something is going on with the 2006 version of Cowher and it starts with his family moving to North Carolina. I will not speculate on what is going on in his personal life, but I will say that I cannot imagine it is not impacting his professional life by having what he comes back to in Fox Chapel each night during the season having changed drastically this year. Does anyone think that is going to change in 2007 if Cowher stays in Pittsburgh? I don't.

For that reason I think he wants a break and wants out. Accordingly, I do not believe the Steelers should beg him to stay (what I meant by the "blank check" statement). Since I think he wants out, let him go.

OK - so he goes - what then? I do not claim to follow the reputations of assistant coaches in the league that are on the short list of HC candidates. However, I do not believe having an incumbent assistant Steelers coach follow Cowher will work. As I have posted previously, if you look at the replacements for Lombardi, Parcells (Giants version), and Gibbs when incumbent assistants took over, it does not work out. (Seifert following Walsh benefited from inheriting superb talent while Carmen Policy and DeBartolo circumvented the salary cap to keep the talent coming). That for me means no Whiz as HC in 2007.

So I think you go outside the organization. I agree Jeff Fisher is an excellent coach but: 1) with the Titans recent performances Fisher may be staying; 2) Fisher has been rumored to be heading to Dallas; and 3) the Steelers practice (if 2 hires in 37 years can be considered a "practice") has been to hire a fairly young defensive coordinator.

I do not know all the names that might fit that description, but I know Rivera in Chicago does (and also settles potential Rooney Rule considerations).

So I say Cowher wants out and further say go outside the oraganization to hire the replacement from within the NFL. You may hear the name Kirk Ferentz come up (the Pittsburgh connection is that Ferentz is Upper St. Clair HS class of 1973), but college HCs entering the league also do not have a sterling track record.

Fire away.

tony hipchest
12-02-2006, 08:11 PM
thanks dan. i agree that if cowher is gone we are gonna be firing 2 quality head coaching candidates in russ and ken, and getting rid of another ex head coach in dick.

rivera is who i was thinking about. there wont be manny head coaching openings this season so competition for him may not be that great, BUT he could sacrifice winning early and following a legend for a few extra million from the cards or raiders.

if we do get him im scared of who his coordinators will be and how prepared they will be to take a group such as the steelers back to the sb. every indication says the steelers really like cowher and the players are not likely to play harder for any other group of coaches.

with the departure of our coaching staff i see a good amount of veterans being released or traded, just to accomodate new schemes. i cant really see porter to enthusiastic to stay with a new coach who is gonna bench him in the last year of his contract.

the offense is very young so the transition period will not be too long. the defense is mid range to - old and i feel will need to be re tooled. the new coach will want to bring in and draft his own players rather than try to convert to a 3-4 or a power running game.

i see atleast 2 more seasons without the playoffs with a completely new coaching staff and then a sb is no guarantee once we make it to the post season.

are steelerfans ready for this? i would say not, the way many react to 1 losing season.

i do hope darren perry is retained and hopefully the new coach promotes him to DC to save some sense of stability. hoke and hampton in a 4-3 is intriguing though

SteelCzar76
12-02-2006, 09:24 PM
Nor do I think those who feel Cowher should "take a break" also feel that he is a horrible coach or that his past accomplishments should be ignored or that he is hated in general. This is a speculative conversation (hence, "Consider the source" on the very first post of this thread). Meaning, speculation with occur. Is there any harm in that? Will it effect the front office decision? lol. Christ ol' mighty, it's for the sake and enjoyment of conversation. If some have that big of a problem with it, they have options.

Let the PM's flow.....:coffee:



There is no harm in conversation 83. Even when such said conversation involves those with sensitive disposition's. (ie governered by emotion and easily swayed by hearsay)
This is how insight and or understanding are often gained.
Oh,.... and i don't think you'll have a problem with receiving any PM's (from me especially) or anyone else. As such "speculative" discussions lacking any great deal of merit should be considered just that ? (Speculative discussion)





"Hail Caesar,........HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

SteelCzar76
12-02-2006, 09:43 PM
Well, since I am sort of being quoted on this thread in other posts, I will attempt to respond.

Do I think the Bill Cowher that coached the Steelers from 1992-2005 should be replaced? No.

With the execption of the Pats version of Belichek I do not think there has been a better NFL head coach than Cowher since 1992. Shanahan has won 2 Super Bowls, but has not done much since Elway retired. Jimmy Johnson won 2 Super Bowls but did not do squat without the overwhelming talent he had in Dallas.

That having been said, something is going on with the 2006 version of Cowher and it starts with his family moving to North Carolina. I will not speculate on what is going on in his personal life, but I will say that I cannot imagine it is not impacting his professional life by having what he comes back to in Fox Chapel each night during the season having changed drastically this year. Does anyone think that is going to change in 2007 if Cowher stays in Pittsburgh? I don't.

For that reason I think he wants a break and wants out. Accordingly, I do not believe the Steelers should beg him to stay (what I meant by the "blank check" statement). Since I think he wants out, let him go.

OK - so he goes - what then? I do not claim to follow the reputations of assistant coaches in the league that are on the short list of HC candidates. However, I do not believe having an incumbent assistant Steelers coach follow Cowher will work. As I have posted previously, if you look at the replacements for Lombardi, Parcells (Giants version), and Gibbs when incumbent assistants took over, it does not work out. (Seifert following Walsh benefited from inheriting superb talent while Carmen Policy and DeBartolo circumvented the salary cap to keep the talent coming). That for me means no Whiz as HC in 2007.

So I think you go outside the organization. I agree Jeff Fisher is an excellent coach but: 1) with the Titans recent performances Fisher may be staying; 2) Fisher has been rumored to be heading to Dallas; and 3) the Steelers practice (if 2 hires in 37 years can be considered a "practice") has been to hire a fairly young defensive coordinator.

I do not know all the names that might fit that description, but I know Rivera in Chicago does (and also settles potential Rooney Rule considerations).

So I say Cowher wants out and further say go outside the oraganization to hire the replacement from within the NFL. You may hear the name Kirk Ferentz come up (the Pittsburgh connection is that Ferentz is Upper St. Clair HS class of 1973), but college HCs entering the league also do not have a sterling track record.

Fire away.




I don't think anyone is disregarding your opinion Dan. (In terms of Coach's suppossed "superficial" lack of fire and or intensity). Or his will to continue coaching at League level.
I just think it's a matter of not letting "assumptions" cloud one's judgement. You and others have valid points. But let's see how things unfold before we "pull the trigger". (so to speak) LOL



"Hail Caesar,.......HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

Livinginthe past
12-03-2006, 01:25 AM
Are you serious? If Cowher came out and signed a multi-year contract tomorrow, most of these posters would be ready to jump off the nearest bridge, judging by some of the things I've been reading here. It's also quite comical to read posts that pretty much guarantee that Cowher is retiring...as if they have a spy within the organization or know what's going on inside his head or clairvoyant or whatever. I also remember hearing and reading the same stuff in 2003, and wow...look what happened 2 years later? All we have now is SPECULATION. If Cowher does end up retiring...hey, that's fine. He's had a great career and has restored the tradition of winning to a proud franchise, a tradition that even Browns and Bengals fans would love to have despite how much they hate the Steelers. But putting the cart before the horse is just silly - NOTHING is guaranteed beyond the next game, or the next minute for that matter.

Sure im serious.

The point im trying to make is that the posters who are being cast as anti-Cowher are nothing of the sort - they are just concerned about his commitment to the team at this point in time.

If Cowher had done the obvious thing and declared his hand before the start of the year, then there would have been no problem - if he had said he was on board until the end of the 2007/8 season then he would be receiving alot more backing.

What alot of people dont like is the deliberate inaction on his behalf, the half-answers in interviews about where he will be next year.

Why can't he just say he is here for the duration of his contract?

The fact is that losing seasons at a regularly successful franchise put a spotlight on the players and coaching staff - if the Steelers were 9-3 instead of 4-7 there would not be quite so much scrutiny, for sure.

I know people like to refer back to the last time the Steelers had a losing season as incontravertible truth that history will be repeated - but I dont see it like that at all.

Back then the only question was whether the Rooney's would tolerate a disappointing season or two - today there is an added factor - does Cowher even want to be in Pittsburgh next year?

NM

Livinginthe past
12-03-2006, 01:35 AM
http://msn.techzine.nl/uploaded/icons/704.jpg

Rules of the Board:

A) Talk pertaining to the draft is not permitted. Punishment: 20 Lashings

B) Talk pertaining to Cowher's future and your opinions pertaining to Cowher's future are not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

C) Negative talk in any form is not permitted. Punishment: DEATH

Come on LITP, get with it. :cheers:

Anyways LITP, for the sake of fun (if that is permitted?). What does somebody from outside the Steeler fanbase think? Do you think he's gone after this season?

Hey 83,

Its always handy to have a refresher on the potential consequences of breaking the rules...you know..right before you do it anyway!

My own personal bet is that he gone, and that he has been pretty much gone since the day the Steelers won the SB.

I dont pretend to know what goes on in the Steelers boardroom, but I think the Rooney's have always stuck with Cowher because, not only is he a good coach, but also a genuine guy who wears his heart on his sleeve.

If we presume that Cowher is gone after this year, then the rest of the puzzle pieces seem to fit.

1. The lack of emotion on the sideline - which I dont believe has always been the result of winning (or nearly winning) games.

2. The lack of discipline from his team - sure he has looked angry in press conferences and stated that certain things wont happen again - then a week or so later they do happen again.

3. The refusal to be open and unequivocal about what he will be doing next year and how his familys move to Carolina effects that decision. If Cowher was going to be in Pittsburgh next year he would squash the rumors - what reason would he possibly have to not do that?

Outside playing hardball on contract negotiations I can't think why Bill C. has been so reticent on the subject of his future.

So to answer your question, I dont think he will be in Pittsburgh - I think he will take a year or two football sabbatical.

NM

Livinginthe past
12-03-2006, 01:46 AM
LITP - I have no problem with "genuine debate". What I have a real problem with is all of this speculation and playing guessing games with such a serious subject, not so much by the fans, but by the sports media. We aren't talking about a coach here who has been a loser since he took over at the helm - we're talking about a man who not only has one of the winningest tenures in the NFL, but who coached his team successfully to a Super Bowl victory just last season for heavens sake!!! I chuckle at some of these fans who act like having our 4th under .500 season in 15 years and not going to the playoffs for only the 5th time in that same time span is the end of the world. Do you know how many other teams would love to have a ride like we Steelers fan have had??? How many other fans would sell their first-born (exag.) to have 11 above average seasons and 10 trips to the playoffs in 15 years??? Your Pats haven't even done that and I'm not saying this to razz you - it is fact.

So what if Cowher doesn't spit, bare his teeth like a rabid dog, pump his fists or jut that jaw anymore? If that is what the sports media and fans base this man's dedication and commitment to this team on, I think they seriously need to put the crack pipes down. Did anyone ever stop and think that Cowher is even more frustrated with this team than we as fans are? Go figure, huh? As a coach in any sport, you can teach the best technique, pound discipline into your players' heads, come up with the best game plan - but when all is said and done, you aren't the one out there making the plays or the mental mistakes. We're not talking about pee wee leaguers here - these are grown men over the age of 23 who shouldn't need their coach to lead them by their little handies. They need to let the helium out of their heads, transfer what their coaches have taught in practice onto the field each and every week and march their asses out there and get with the program instead of walking around with those swollen heads and chips on their shoulders that every other team out there is more than willing to knock off.

I don't believe for one single second that the Rooneys are "fed up" with Cowher. Fed up with what exactly? That the Steelers didn't repeat as Super Bowl champs this season, a feat that only 7 teams have accomplished in 40 years, the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70's accomplishing it twice? That the Steelers aren't going to the playoffs this year when they've gone 11 out of 15 seasons thus far? That Bill Cowher, a man who will be 50 years old in May, is exhibiting a more reserved behavior than he has in seasons past? How do any of us know that the Rooneys and Cowher haven't already discussed Cowher's future status with the Steelers and come to an agreement? The fact is - we don't.

I for one have not and do not question Bill Cowher's dedication and commitment to this team and I know I am in the minority around here which is fine. There are a whole host of reasons why I believe this team has fallen from its cloud which I have discussed openly on this board. We all have different reasons for believing what we do and I respect that, but I'd much rather take the wait and see approach and hear it from the man himself when he is good and ready to let his feelings be known rather than continue to play the game of Clue.

Hey HTG,

As I stated before, I dont think anyone is saying that Cowher is a flat-out bad coach, just that his performance this year might not be a blip on the road.

It could well be a symptom of a more terminal problem - Cowhers lack of definite commitment to the franchise.

I honestly believe that if Cowher had come out and put an end to the speculation then we wouldnt have half as many threads about the situation.

Indecision makes alot of people jumpy, and sometime angry, - factor in a losing season (and not just a slight drop in form either - the bottom has totally fallen out of a team defending its title) and you have a combustible atmosphere.

If Bill had stated his intention at the beginning of year to only serve one more year as HC - then it might have given another 'Bettis vibe' to the season - repeat for Coach Cowher etc etc

Every day that goes past without Cowher making his situation a little more transparent makes alot of fans a little more frustrated - they feel they are being kept in the dark with regard to a team that they put alot of time and money into - every time they put out a shambolic effort on the football field the tension and frustration is magnified.

This is the single biggest concern of the majority of Steeler fans - speculation is going to be rife in both the media and on messageboards until someone tells it how it is.

NM

83-Steelers-43
12-03-2006, 07:59 AM
for the sake of enjoyment and conversation im still waiting for someone to offer up some alternatives. if cowher wants to quit then fine, i support him. i just dont see him as a quitter. i dont think the rooneys firing him is an option. if it was how they operate they woulda done it years ago.

so we have alot of people who recognize that the steelers have a problem (4-7 record) but where are the solutions? would sean payton have guided this team to a sb this year? how bout aRT SHELL.? e. mangina?

is jeff fisher more qualified to turn this thing around next year? should the rooneys low ball cowher just to go out and pay jeff his $6.5 mil market value?.
the offense and defense has been stale this year. is it time to scrap the "power running game" that the coaches have tried to force willie into and that has been our identity for years? is the age of the 3-4 zone blitz over in pittsburgh? after all if cowher is stale and non commited arent his assistants also? is russ grimm gonna be able to turn it around and offer a "fresh" voice? or will it be the same old message and m.o.?

the discussion is great but just saying cowher needs to go is getting stale without any alternatives being offered. so i ask all those who want to see him gone- who will lead the steelers to a SB win next season? converting our team to a 4-3 means cleaning house and starting from scratch with a leaning curve. it could set us back a few seasons. teaching ben a new offense will take some time and adjustment too. keeping wiz and grimm is pretty much the same as keeping cowher.

are steelerfans ready to stomach several years of mediocrity and rebuilding so we can hope a college coach like jimmy johnson can come in and turn everything around?

will part of the interview process for a new coach involv asking the canidate to hock a loogie and see how far he can spit it? will jutting jaw measurements be taken?

since our team may be without a coach next season, im down for any conversation that may lend insight to who the replacement will be and how they will be able to win the next 5 afc champ games we may or may not even go to.

When Cowher's name is brought up and talk about a new coach is in the air there is NEVER a coach good enough to lead this Steeler team. Personally, I don't see the point in bringing up possible replacements because nobody is ever good enough. When the man who brought this franchise and city four super bowl rings was ready to hang'em up I'm sure the same talk was going around. "Who's going to coach us now?". Nobody is good enough to coach this team. Then the Rooney's went out and picked up relatively unknown ST's/secondary/DC coach named Bill Cowher. I think that worked out pretty well.

Personally, I'm willing to take mediocrity (then again who's to say we will be mediocre for sure unless you can read the future?) if it means we are going to have a HC that will be here for the long hull. A coach who has the fire to coach this organization. A coach who is not burned out. While I don't put much stock in his sideline demeanor, I am starting to question his decision making, his strategy and his ability to get this team ready every Sunday. Sometimes, change is good even though a good number of Pittsburgh fans have a hard time dealing with change.

Once again and for the record. I'm not stating Cowher is a horrible coach. I'm not stating that his past accomplishments mean nothing. I am stating that I believe the guy should take a break from the game. If Cowher decides to stay I'm not going to have seizure. I'm still going to attend every home game. I'm still going to support this team like I have since I was a kid. That does not mean I'm going to be comfortable with the situation, but what can you do? Going by how this topic tends to fold out, I'd be more worried for those who are on the other side of the fence.

You and I will never agree on this Tony and that's cool. I respect your opinion. I must say though, the speculation talk is fun isn't it? :cheers:

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 10:07 AM
If Cowher had done the obvious thing and declared his hand before the start of the year, then there would have been no problem - if he had said he was on board until the end of the 2007/8 season then he would be receiving alot more backing.



NM

and you know this how? do you live in pittsburgh now? please dont tell me youre basing this on what you read on this board. dont act like you have your finger on the pulse of all steelerfans cause regardless if his contract was signed for 5 years, with a 4-7 season, the only difference is that fans would be asking him to be fired instead of asking that he quit.

Livinginthe past
12-03-2006, 10:15 AM
and you know this how? do you live in pittsburgh now? please dont tell me youre basing this on what you read on this board. dont act like you have your finger on the pulse of all steelerfans cause regardless if his contract was signed for 5 years, with a 4-7 season, the only difference is that fans would be asking him to be fired instead of asking that he quit.

I didnt realise you had to actually live in Pittsburgh to have an opinion on the Steelers.

That would kinda rule you out too wouldnt it,Tony? :wink02:


NM

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 10:20 AM
When Cowher's name is brought up and talk about a new coach is in the air there is NEVER a coach good enough to lead this Steeler team. Personally, I don't see the point in bringing up possible replacements because nobody is ever good enough. When the man who brought this franchise and city four super bowl rings was ready to hang'em up I'm sure the same talk was going around. "Who's going to coach us now?". Nobody is good enough to coach this team. Then the Rooney's went out and picked up relatively unknown ST's/secondary/DC coach named Bill Cowher. I think that worked out pretty well.

Personally, I'm willing to take mediocrity (then again who's to say we will be mediocre for sure unless you can read the future?) if it means we are going to have a HC that will be here for the long hull. A coach who has the fire to coach this organization. A coach who is not burned out. While I don't put much stock in his sideline demeanor, I am starting to question his decision making, his strategy and his ability to get this team ready every Sunday. Sometimes, change is good even though a good number of Pittsburgh fans have a hard time dealing with change.

Once again and for the record. I'm not stating Cowher is a horrible coach. I'm not stating that his past accomplishments mean nothing. I am stating that I believe the guy should take a break from the game. If Cowher decides to stay I'm not going to have seizure. I'm still going to attend every home game. I'm still going to support this team like I have since I was a kid. That does not mean I'm going to be comfortable with the situation, but what can you do? Going by how this topic tends to fold out, I'd be more worried for those who are on the other side of the fence.

You and I will never agree on this Tony and that's cool. I respect your opinion. I must say though, the speculation talk is fun isn't it? :cheers: well theres nothing to disagree with if his intentions are to hang up his headset after this season. a concept i have not ruled out as a possibility.

interresting statement "getting a coach for the long haul". the nfl average suggests he will be here for about 4-6 years. the recent steelers average says he will be here about 18-20 years.

unlike the davis, snyder, or jones, i do think the rooneys would be able to accept several years of mediocrity just to stay the course and support their decision. and i will too, with the occasional "they should try to re hire cowher" thrown in.

first and foremost i support and follow the steelers for the game on sunday. all the playoffs and sb's is just gravy. i will enjoy a win and good game today just like i would a win when were in the thick of it.

Atlanta Dan
12-03-2006, 10:24 AM
T.H. - I believe the intensity of the fire directed at Cowher (which would not be coming at all if the Steelers were headed back to the playoffs) is because he came back with an uncertain contract situation.

Cowher had three scenarios once he decided to come back this year: 1) come back with no contract and coach 2006; 2) state before the season he was leaving after 2006 and coach the season; or 3) get a new deal done.

I agree that if either of the first 2 options took place Cowher would be taking heat for this season because: 1) as has been the case, he is charged with not being committed & creating uncertainty and/or a distraction by not resolving his contract; or 2) if he said he was leaving, he would be accused of being a lame duck who was not committed to his job and that the players tuned out since they knew he was leaving.

However, if Cowher's contract was running for several more years I believe coming off a Super Bowl win he would be cut a lot more slack for this season's record and the focus would be more on the season being screwed due to Ben's physical problems.

So I believe the contract situation ratchets up the leval of discontent arising from a 4-7 record.

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 10:29 AM
I didnt realise you had to actually live in Pittsburgh to have an opinion on the Steelers.

That would kinda rule you out too wouldnt it,Tony? :wink02:


NMas you have shown, you dont have to live anywhere specific to have an incorrect opinion (especially when you state it as fact). ive spent my fair share of time in the burgh, and have hundred + relatives there who actually have their finger on the pulse.

Lambertfan
12-03-2006, 10:32 AM
I do not like Cowher,I know a former player and though he has never come out and said so,I got a bad feeling because of his treatment when they were going to do a new deal.
It never happened and some of his player friends were treated badly by Cowher. hw never bad mouthed Cowher. It was a feeling I got talking to him.
I feel a while ago he lost some power and Kevin Colbert got more,Kevin had good drafts and had a big hand in picking coaches which really helped going to the Super Bowl.

Yes I am lacking facts.but it is my feeling and my 2 cents,I will be glad hen he is gone.Flame away..

Black@Gold Forever32
12-03-2006, 10:35 AM
T.H. - I believe the intensity of the fire directed at Cowher (which would not be coming at all if the Steelers were headed back to the playoffs) is because he came back with an uncertain contract situation.

Cowher had three scenarios once he decided to come back this year: 1) come back with no contract and coach 2006; 2) state before the season he was leaving after 2006 and coach the season; or 3) get a new deal done.

I agree that if either of the first 2 options took place Cowher would be taking heat for this season because: 1) as has been the case, he is charged with not being committed & creating uncertainty and/or a distraction by not resolving his contract; or 2) if he said he was leaving, he would be accused of being a lame duck who was not committed to his job and that the players tuned out since they knew he was leaving.

However, if Cowher's contract was running for several more years I believe coming off a Super Bowl win he would be cut a lot more slack for this season's record and the focus would be more on the season being screwed due to Ben's physical problems.

So I believe the contract situation ratchets up the leval of discontent arising from a 4-7 record.

Bingo we have a winner Johnny. Great post my friend. Exactly Cowhers whole contract situation makes this 4-7 record worse. Plus I can deal with losses. But its how the Steelers have been lossing that ticks me off. Stupid penalities and turn overs. Trade marks not usually seen with Bill Cowher teams. Plus the whole special teams mess. Which Cowher is supposed to be a guru of special teams. When you factor in all of those things then thats why some are being really hard on Bill Cowher.

Livinginthe past
12-03-2006, 10:37 AM
as you have shown, you dont have to live anywhere specific to have an incorrect opinion (especially when you state it as fact). ive spent my fair share of time in the burgh, and have hundred + relatives there who actually have their finger on the pulse.

One of things I don't bother with is typing IMO and IMHO before and after every statement just so people can be sure I dont have insider information into what goes on in the Steeler franchise.

That doesn't mean im sstating anything as fact - and anyone with even a small amount of common sense would be able to deduce that without having it spelled out in every post.

Nevertheless I did take the time, just a few posts before that, to state that I dont pretend to actually know what goes on in the Steelers boardroom - I wont be publishing that disclaimer with every post I make :sofunny:

As far as this board goes, I do take it to be a fairly reliable cross section of the Pittsburgh fanbase - we have posters from most age groups.

I think you do the best Steelers site on the web a dis-service by saying it doesn't represent the Steelers fanbase.

Say hi to your 100+ relatives for me - they do a great job of making your posts more worthy than mine :toofunny:

NM

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 10:38 AM
However, if Cowher's contract was running for several more years I believe coming off a Super Bowl win he would be cut a lot more slack for this season's record and the focus would be more on the season being screwed due to Ben's physical problems.



and the fans would be just as harsh with ben as they have been with cowher. many would be calling for brady quinn. when steelerfans blame, they blame hard. bradshaw and stewart can attest to this. thats why i have not been so quick to put all the blame on cowher. this season has been a cumulative effect of alot of things. regardless of a contract status. i still think alot of fans would accuse him of being complacent after a sb win. (losing the fire, mailing it in etc.) point is steelerfans never take losing well and cowher would be 1st to take all the blame. steelerfans would be the 1st to give him all the blame.

Atlanta Dan
12-03-2006, 11:54 AM
T.H. - I agree Steeler Nation is emotional and shares the love or the hate with this team depending on how the season is going.

Someone on the team was going to be the ritual human sacrifice for this season and if it was not Cowher it would be someone else.

Howver, just as Kordell took the heat for 1998, I believe Ben and some other players (Starks, Simmons, Taylor, Porter) would be getting whacked for this season more than Cowher if it were not for the contract situation. However, there is a contract situation and it is magnifying the heat directed at Cowher.

Big D
12-03-2006, 12:12 PM
T.H. - I believe the intensity of the fire directed at Cowher (which would not be coming at all if the Steelers were headed back to the playoffs) is because he came back with an uncertain contract situation.

Cowher had three scenarios once he decided to come back this year: 1) come back with no contract and coach 2006; 2) state before the season he was leaving after 2006 and coach the season; or 3) get a new deal done.

I agree that if either of the first 2 options took place Cowher would be taking heat for this season because: 1) as has been the case, he is charged with not being committed & creating uncertainty and/or a distraction by not resolving his contract; or 2) if he said he was leaving, he would be accused of being a lame duck who was not committed to his job and that the players tuned out since they knew he was leaving.

However, if Cowher's contract was running for several more years I believe coming off a Super Bowl win he would be cut a lot more slack for this season's record and the focus would be more on the season being screwed due to Ben's physical problems.

So I believe the contract situation ratchets up the leval of discontent arising from a 4-7 record.

Agree with you again dan. This team is not a 4-7 team. I have seen cowher coach with zero emmotion. I think cowher was selfish to come back this year if he didnt have his heart in it. The steeler job is a very good job that alot of coaches would jump at. If cowher had his heart with this team we would be 7-4 if not better. I said right after the raider loss that cowher should have stepped down. I have seen nothing but piss poor decisions all year long. Whether it be his handling with ben or still keeping santonio holmes on returns. I look forward to next year because i know we will bounce back. This is a great team with just a few pieces missing

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 01:57 PM
when wiz was hired by cowher it was his dedication to returning the steelers to the smashmouth style power running game that tipped the scales in his favor.

will the rooneys do the same if interviwing a new head coach? will only candidates who are willing the 3-4 be considered? would the rooneys hire a coach who wants to turn the steelers into a finess passing team? are thre rooney (and even us fans in general) married to the image of "steelers football" with a dominating blitzing defense and jerome bettis style running game? im wondering if we are in for an image makover, not saying whether thats good or bad.

Big D
12-03-2006, 02:03 PM
when wiz was hired by cowher it was his dedication to returning the steelers to the smashmouth style power running game that tipped the scales in his favor.

will the rooneys do the same if interviwing a new head coach? will only candidates who are willing the 3-4 be considered? would the rooneys hire a coach who wants to turn the steelers into a finess passing team? are thre rooney (and even us fans in general) married to the image of "steelers football" with a dominating blitzing defense and jerome bettis style running game? im wondering if we are in for an image makover, not saying whether thats good or bad.

I think the 3-4 defense is closely becoming extinct. I think there is just a handfull of teams that run it now. I dont think the rooneys will interview just 3-4 coaches.

SteelCityMan786
12-03-2006, 02:04 PM
I think the 3-4 defense is closely becoming extinct. I think there is just a handfull of teams that run it now. I dont think the rooneys will interview just 3-4 coaches.

Wouldn't hurt to either.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-03-2006, 02:28 PM
I think the 3-4 defense is closely becoming extinct. I think there is just a handfull of teams that run it now. I dont think the rooneys will interview just 3-4 coaches.

Chargers, Cowboys, Jets, Steelers, Browns, 49ers all run the 3-4. The Pats, Ravens, Dolphins use the 3-4 at times. I just would like the Steelers do like what the Pats and other teams do. At times run the 3-4 then switch to a 4-3 at times. I understand you need the Dlineman to pull it off. But its just a thought.

83-Steelers-43
12-03-2006, 07:19 PM
What should we do? (1991)...lol.

Like I said, no matter the name it's not good enough.....waste of air.......

Black@Gold Forever32
12-03-2006, 07:22 PM
What should we do? (1991)...lol.

No kidding bro. I hate saying I want him to go I really do. But I think all great things must come to an end at some time and I think its time for a change. But just like in 1991 if the Rooney's make the right hire. Then there is no reason for this organization to have the success we expect from the Steelers.

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 09:40 PM
No kidding bro. I hate saying I want him to go I really do. But I think all great things must come to an end at some time and I think its time for a change. But just like in 1991 if the Rooney's make the right hire. Then there is no reason for this organization to have the success we expect from the Steelers. IF the rooneys make the right hire, i think there is ALL the reason for this organization to have the success we have come to expect.


(dont sweat it bro, i knew what you meant)

tony hipchest
12-03-2006, 09:42 PM
What should we do? (1991)...lol.

Like I said, no matter the name it's not good enough.....waste of air....... the speculation for conversations sake is fun. not a waste of air