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Big D
01-15-2007, 08:22 AM
I really question how well the rooney rule has worked. Out of 32 nfl teams there are only 5 nfl minority head coaches. Last year when there were 9 coaching openings only two went to minoritys. And it could be argued that art shell was hired as quite simply a lame duck head coach. Even Mr rooney himself doesnt look like he is in position to hire a minority head coach.
I worked for ups and had the ability to decide who I want to hire and fire. And i've never had to comply with any minority hiring regulations so I dont know why the nfl would have too.
I think needs to examine this policy and see how effective it really is.

Mosca
01-15-2007, 08:41 AM
I dunno, last year there were seven black head coaches; Dungy, Lewis, Smith, Shell, Green, Edwards, and Crennel. Dungy, Smith, and Edwards got their teams into the playoffs. Lewis has a decent team. Shell did the best he could with what he had. Green is a failure, and the book isn't written yet on Crennel; next year is make or break for him. I think he's a pretty good coach, myself.

It looks to me like they are about as successful as white head coaches. I don't know what the answer is Big D.


Tom

Big D
01-15-2007, 08:43 AM
I dunno, last year there were seven black head coaches; Dungy, Lewis, Smith, Shell, Green, Edwards, and Crennel. Dungy, Smith, and Edwards got their teams into the playoffs. Lewis has a decent team. Shell did the best he could with what he had. Green is a failure, and the book isn't written yet on Crennel; next year is make or break for him. I think he's a pretty good coach, myself.

It looks to me like they are about as successful as white head coaches. I don't know what the answer is Big D.


Tom

My point is this. You break that down. at the highest peak only 30% of coaches have been minoritys. Look at the nba that number is much higher and could be nearly half.

Mosca
01-15-2007, 08:53 AM
My point is this. You break that down. at the highest peak only 30% of coaches have been minoritys. Look at the nba that number is much higher and could be nearly half.


I agree, given the number of savvy leadership type guys in the NFL, you'd think that there would be more opportunity. I think the Rooney Rule was adopted to break up the "old boy network" of coaches that keep getting recycled, but I don't think it's worked. Here's a link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/3602466.html) to a pretty good article I found while researching a little bit (so that I wouldn't post something stupid). It's a year old, nothing has changed in the last year.


Tom
------------------------------------------------------

John P. Lopez

Jan. 21, 2006, 1:15AM
Rooney Rule not working like it should

By JOHN P. LOPEZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle


IT'S easy to be happy for former Texans coach Dom Capers having a chance to interview with the Buffalo Bills on Friday.

Capers is one of the finest men and truest professionals the NFL will ever know.

But he also was 2-14 last season.

And thus, onward the NFL goes into the 21st century, waving the so-called Rooney Rule high and proud with one hand, clutching old habits with the other.

One step forward, two steps back?

The league has tripped all over itself recently as it has hailed the success of its Rooney Rule, which requires teams to interview minority candidates unless an assistant is being promoted from within.

But given the opportunity to build on success stories such as those of Tony Dungy and Marvin Lewis, owners now are backpedaling.

Quality candidates ignored

They are offering token looks at candidates to satisfy the Rooney Rule, but turning to NFL retreads or young, white coaches whose qualifications don't compare with assistants such as Chicago's Ron Rivera, Cleveland's Maurice Carthon or the New York Giants' Tim Lewis.

Let's be clear on one thing: NFL owners should not be told to "hire black," so to speak. Or brown.

For the good of their team's prospects, however, they should be told to look at the entire field of candidates equally. Why limit resources?

But it seems that despite the Rooney Rule's intent, the field remains tilted.

And owners are seeing things that just are not there when it comes to the best-qualified candidates.

How does Capers, off a horrendous 2-14 year, get an interview in Buffalo, but Jerry Gray, who just finished his fifth season as Bills defensive coordinator, is told he would not be considered? And then Gray also is told to look elsewhere for a job by new GM Marv Levy.

Until this season when injuries riddled the Bills' defense, Gray led a squad that finished second in the league in fewest yards allowed in 2003 and 2004. His defense also led the league with 39 turnovers in 2004.

Breakthroughs unlikely

There have been 10 NFL head coaching opportunities available this season, a remarkable number even in the high-turnover pro football market.

Not counting Herman Edwards heading to Kansas City from the New York Jets, who received a fourth-round pick for allowing him to move on, it's likely no other job will be filled by a minority.

This comes after the 2005 regular season proved emphatically that when NFL owners expand their horizons and imaginations, good things can happen.

Three of the best stories in football this year ? Cincinnati's rise, Indianapolis' flirtation with perfection and the Bears' return to bruising prominence ? were authored by black head coaches.

The NFL took great pride this year in noting as much, hailing the Rooney Rule as one of its great successes.

Lewis, Dungy and Lovie Smith took their teams to the playoffs. Two of the other three minority head coaches in the league ? Edwards and Dennis Green ? also have taken teams to the playoffs. And Cleveland's Romeo Crennel, leader of the New England Patriots' Super Bowl defenses, improved the Browns in his first season as head coach.

So how did the league's owners respond to the success stories? By returning to the same old story: Token interviews and questionable hires, not one of which likely will be a minority.

Gray and Rivera interviewed for the vacant Green Bay Packers job. Both are eminently more qualified than the man the Pack hired, Mike McCarthy, who guided the league's worst offense (224 yards per game) and 30th-ranked scoring offense (14.9 points per game) last year. When McCarthy was Packers quarterbacks coach in 1999, Brett Favre had the worst season of his prime, throwing 23 interceptions to 22 touchdowns.

When Rivera and Gray heard the news of McCarthy's hire, they must have responded like most Packers fans. Huh? Whaaa?

Individually, the NFL's hires this postseason certainly can be justified by those who made them ? some legitimately so, like the Texans picking Gary Kubiak. Considering what the Texans need, what Kubiak offers and his credentials, he was the perfect pick.

But as a whole, the league must be embarrassed over how this remarkable year for coaching opportunities will end.

Of the 10 openings, nine could be first-time NFL head coaches. Not one of those will be a minority.

The Rams hired Scott Linehan, a quality, talented offensive mind. But compared to Colts assistant head coach Jim Caldwell, a 13-year NFL coaching veteran who helped guide one of league's best offenses, Linehan's qualifications do not compare.

The Vikings wasted no time hiring Brad Childress, the former Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator known as something of a disciplinarian. But compared to the Giants' Tim Lewis, Rivera or Carthon, the credentials are at best a wash.

The NFL has talked a lot about how proud it is of the Rooney Rule.

But this has not been a proud postseason.

john.lopez@chron.com

RoethlisBURGHer
01-15-2007, 09:45 AM
The Rooney Rule only says you have to interview at least 1 minority for the HC position.

Owners have every right to higher whomever they want to coach thier team.Look at the Lions when they highered Mooch,that was the guy they wanted from the get-go.

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 10:00 AM
A couple of inconsistancies in this article....

First off ...it bases its foundation and conclusion on the final records of coaches hired...It is not a racial problem if a team hires a bad white coach...its stupidity.

Second ..they make the mistake of saying other than Herm Edwards..no minority would be hired last year ..when in reality Dennis Green was hired..as was Art Shell...a full 33% of the hirings last year going to minorities.

The Rooney rule IS working...obviously!!!..You just can no more factor in Dom Capers bad season being a slight against a deserving minority..than you can Art Shells bad season being a slight against a white coach.

ARKIESTEEL
01-15-2007, 10:38 AM
Should the % be higher than the % of the population 33% vs 13%?????

Big D
01-15-2007, 10:39 AM
The Rooney Rule only says you have to interview at least 1 minority for the HC position.

Owners have every right to higher whomever they want to coach thier team.Look at the Lions when they highered Mooch,that was the guy they wanted from the get-go.

yeah and the lions were fined and stripped of draft picks.

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 10:47 AM
Should the % be higher than the % of the population 33% vs 13%?????

Actual amount of Minority head coaches last year was 7 of 32...which is 21.75 %...still over the projected goal

Romeo Crennel at Cleveland, Lovie Smith at Chicago, Marvin Lewis at Cincinnati, Herman Edwards at Kansas City, Tony Dungy at Indianapolis, Dennis Green at Arizona and Art Shell at Oakland Raiders.

Big D
01-15-2007, 10:52 AM
Actual amount of Minority head coaches last year was 7 of 32...which is 21.75 %...still over the projected goal

Romeo Crennel at Cleveland, Lovie Smith at Chicago, Marvin Lewis at Cincinnati, Herman Edwards at Kansas City, Tony Dungy at Indianapolis, Dennis Green at Arizona and Art Shell at Oakland Raiders.

that is still an extreamly low number.

Mosca
01-15-2007, 11:00 AM
I'd think it should more accurately reflect the % of the NFL rather than the population as a whole.

LLT, I too noticed the inconsistencies, but I felt there were some valid points in there as well. It's definitely worth discussing.


Tom

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:01 AM
I'd think it should more accurately reflect the % of the NFL rather than the population as a whole.

LLT, I too noticed the inconsistencies, but I felt there were some valid points in there as well. It's definitely worth discussing.


Tom

someone correct me if i'm wrong. But if I remeber right there is not one single african american owner. Am I right about that?

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 11:04 AM
I remember we had a simolar discussion awhile back and LLT was kind enough to provide the statistics of the racial make-up of the United States population. (60% white, I believe)

The % of minority HC's is below the 40% that would make it an exact reflection of society but it should be remembered that life isnt a computer program where what 'should happen' 'does happen'.

I dont want to see more minority coaches - I want to see more coaches who are judged on ability regardless of color.

That should be the goal.

NM

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 11:06 AM
someone correct me if i'm wrong. But if I remeber right there is not one single african american owner. Am I right about that?

Zygi Wilf (vikings) - I believe is the first african american owner.

NM

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:08 AM
Zygi Wilf (vikings) - I believe is the first african american owner.

NM

he is actually white.

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:10 AM
In august I had to take a diversity training course. Believe it or not it was a week long course. One of the interesting facts that I was taught is by the year 2050 there will be more hispanics living in america then caucassions. Which leads me to another question. With the high percentage of hispanics living in america dont you think that there would be more hispanics in the nfl. Believe it or not there are more hispanics then african americans living in the us

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 11:10 AM
he is actually white.

Ahhh my bad.

Thought id read that he was a black guy - just seen his picture on Wikipedia - he looks pretty white :wink02:

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 11:12 AM
I remember we had a simolar discussion awhile back and LLT was kind enough to provide the statistics of the racial make-up of the United States population. (60% white, I believe)

The % of minority HC's is below the 40% that would make it an exact reflection of society but it should be remembered that life isnt a computer program where what 'should happen' 'does happen'.

I dont want to see more minority coaches - I want to see more coaches who are judged on ability regardless of color.

That should be the goal.

NM

You are right...I think I made the point in that discussion that it was the Hispanic population that was not being represented..along with asian americans


and your last statement is right on the money,,the GOAL should be a nation where we are judged on the nature of our souls..the quality of our work ...and the strength of our character,....never by the color of our skin


Originally Posted by Mosca
I'd think it should more accurately reflect the % of the NFL rather than the population as a whole.


I understand why someone would make that arguement ...however..the logical conclusion of that thought would be that if we hired another supervisor where I work..we could not hire a qualified african-american since we already have one and to have another would not reflect the percentage of our workforce.

polamalufan43
01-15-2007, 11:13 AM
Well, I think the Rooney Rule was a good idea. Even though there might not be many minority head coaches, it still gives them a fair chance. And who knows, some teams might interview a minority candidate and end up picking him because they think he will bring something different to the team.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:13 AM
Ahhh my bad.

Thought id read that he was a black guy - just seen his picture on Wikipedia - he looks pretty white :wink02:

NM

yeah. He looks like luigi from super mario brothers. What you probably had confused is the vikings had an african american buy the team, but he couldnt find all the money to fund it.

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:16 AM
Well, I think the Rooney Rule was a good idea. Even though there might not be many minority head coaches, it still gives them a fair chance. And who knows, some teams might interview a minority candidate and end up picking him because they think he will bring something different to the team.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

I have to respectably disagree with you. I'm not a minority. But I cant imagine if I had to go into an interview knowing that I was just a canidate of a job just because the employer had to fill some sort of compliance. The rule hasnt changed anything. Just my opinion

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 11:16 AM
yeah. He looks like luigi from super mario brothers. What you probably had confused is the vikings had an african american buy the team, but he couldnt find all the money to fund it.

You know what...thats probably it.

Thanks :cheers:

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 11:18 AM
NFL has record number of black head coaches this year
Posted 8/17/2006


ORLANDO (AP) ? The NFL's rule that at least one minority candidate be interviewed for each head coaching vacancy is the reason there are now a record seven black head coaches, six more than 16 years ago, the author of several sports diversity studies said Thursday.
The University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport credited the league's "Rooney Rule," adopted in late 2002, for the improvement.

"It's been really fast-tracked in a big-time way," study author Richard Lapchick said. "I've always felt the commissioner (Paul Tagliabue) had high on his priority list to improve the record for diversity, but until then he just didn't have the leverage."

The number of black general managers also increased from two in 2003 to a record five at the beginning of this season after the Houston Texans hired Rick Smith. Others at the position, not always called general manager but with equivalent duties, are the Baltimore Ravens' Ozzie Newsome, Arizona Cardinals vice president Rod Graves, Martin Mayhew with the Detroit Lions and James Harris, vice president of player personnel with the Jacksonville Jaguars.
There were never more than four minority head coaches throughout the 1990s.

Current black head coaches are: Romeo Crennel at Cleveland, Lovie Smith at Chicago, Marvin Lewis at Cincinnati, Herman Edwards at Kansas City, Tony Dungy at Indianapolis, Dennis Green at Arizona and Art Shell, recently rehired by the Oakland Raiders.

Those changes helped the NFL earn an overall B+ from a B last year in Lapchick's report card on race.

"Having talented people from diverse backgrounds has been and will continue to be a priority for our league," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said.

However, the report noted that the NFL ? and other pro men's sports, with the exception of basketball ? continued to lag in hiring women. The report card did not specifically issue a grade for gender because researchers were missing information from the NFL head office, Lapchick said, but it likely wouldn't have improved much over last year's D+.

The NFL did have a female president/CEO ? Amy Trask of the Oakland Raiders ? which is a rarity across pro sports, Lapchick said.

Lapchick reports on diversity in all the major professional sports and the NCAA.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:19 AM
You know what...thats probably it.

Thanks :cheers:

NM

Reggie Fowler was the orignal group leader that tried to buy the vikings. The nfl deemed he didnt have the capitol to do it. Thats when zigy took over.

polamalufan43
01-15-2007, 11:19 AM
I have to respectably disagree with you. I'm not a minority. But I cant imagine if I had to go into an interview knowing that I was just a canidate of a job just because the employer had to fill some sort of compliance. The rule hasnt changed anything. Just my opinion

Well, I understand that. But in my opinion I would still go. Because if you show the organization that you have something extra that they wouldn't have expected, then you would have a fair chance, as would everyone else.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 11:21 AM
I have to respectably disagree with you. I'm not a minority. But I cant imagine if I had to go into an interview knowing that I was just a canidate of a job just because the employer had to fill some sort of compliance. The rule hasnt changed anything. Just my opinion

There is no perfect solution to the problem - racism and racial discrimination exists in all layers of life to some degree.

Its pretty difficult to prove that someone didnt get a job based upon their skin color, plenty of people have missed out on jobs because, while they may have all the right qualifications, they didnt come across the right way in an interview.

If the subject is left untouched then things might never improve, however, if people are under the impression that certain employess are only in the job because of token political correctness that can be damaging to the intended goal.

Whenever such a broad policy is brought into action it is going to be clumsy, umwieldy and probably not that effective - but you cant just sit back if the status quo is clearly wrong.

NM

Mosca
01-15-2007, 11:22 AM
I understand why someone would make that arguement ...however..the logical conclusion of that thought would be that if we hired another supervisor where I work..we could not hire a qualified african-american since we already have one and to have another would not reflect the percentage of our workforce.

I didn't mean to say that it should be made to match; what I meant was that you'd think, with all the really savvy guys in the NFL, that there'd be plenty of qualified candidates right now working as assistant coaches and head coaches in the college ranks, ready to be interviewed. You'd think it would match naturally, +/- a couple points from year to year.


Tom

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:23 AM
Obviously this is going to be a sensitve subject because it is race related.

polamalufan43
01-15-2007, 11:26 AM
Well, it can be. It depends on the organization

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Big D
01-15-2007, 11:33 AM
I have to ask. Is race as much of an issue in england litp?

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 11:34 AM
I have to respectably disagree with you. I'm not a minority. But I cant imagine if I had to go into an interview knowing that I was just a canidate of a job just because the employer had to fill some sort of compliance. The rule hasnt changed anything. Just my opinion

7 coaches out of 32...16 years ago there was 1....It IS working..and working well.

pitt
01-15-2007, 01:21 PM
The job should go to the BEST person for the job reguardless of race or gender.

lamberts-lost-tooth
01-15-2007, 01:44 PM
For my part, I really don't understand why it's any "better" to have more coaches of any one race.

You certainly don't want to see any discrimination going on. But at the same time, when you go out of your way to make race an issue, there's only one thing you're guaranteed to accomplish -- making sure everyone has something to bitch about.

...I dont think they are going for better....they were going for fair....sometimes they are one and the same ...sometimes not.

Borski
01-15-2007, 02:15 PM
Really no offense to anyone, I don't care if there are more or less minority coaches in the NFL, all I would judge is there skill to preform

Livinginthe past
01-15-2007, 03:26 PM
I have to ask. Is race as much of an issue in england litp?

Without going into too much detail on a footbal thread - yes it is.

NM

SteelCzar76
01-15-2007, 05:24 PM
I remember we had a simolar discussion awhile back and LLT was kind enough to provide the statistics of the racial make-up of the United States population. (60% white, I believe)

The % of minority HC's is below the 40% that would make it an exact reflection of society but it should be remembered that life isnt a computer program where what 'should happen' 'does happen'.

I dont want to see more minority coaches - I want to see more coaches who are judged on ability regardless of color.

That should be the goal.

NM



Actually,.....our population is not 60% white. This is just a matter of those whom produce census polls now claiming that many whom would have in the past been considered "less than white" because of their mixed ethnicity (ie many hispanics, african americans with considerable amounts of caucasian blood and asians of the same nature.) are now in fact "white".

But none of this even matters,......it's ridiculous that the subject of what "race" (?) an individual is takes any precedence over ability. (regardless of such nonsense as to a person's degree of melanin or lack thereof)

Bottom Line,... "racisim"......is used to control unenlightened weak cattle. (Those whom buy into it,.....and that include's people of any ethnicity)




"Hail Caesar,......HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

MasterOfPuppets
01-15-2007, 07:24 PM
hmmmm....anyone happen to know the ratio of black to white amongst the nfl players??? if the coaching is trying to be made "fair" then shouldn't it also be made "fair" when it comes to the athlete???...HELL NO!!!! you put the best product you can find on the field and that should go for the sidelines and Front office as well!!!!

polamalufan43
01-15-2007, 07:28 PM
hmmmm....anyone happen to know the ratio of black to white amongst the nfl players??? if the coaching is trying to be made "fair" then shouldn't it also be made "fair" when it comes to the athlete???...HELL NO!!!! you put the best product you can find on the field and that should go for the sidelines and Front office as well!!!!

Well, I don't know the exact ratio, but just by looking their are more African American players than Caucasian, and I'll include Samoan because there are a few (Polamalu & Tatupu) of them in the NFL as well. As I thought about it, I want to say that I don't think race as a factor, as I said before it depends on teh organizations owner, but I really doubt any of them are really racist.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

SteelCzar76
01-15-2007, 07:42 PM
but I really doubt any of them are really racist.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:


Exactly. I think alot of perceived "racism" is a matter of comfort and or familiarity. As it's in the nature of most human beings to be somewhat uncomfortable or in some cases,....perhaps even fear that which they have never known. And therefore feel they don't understand.



"Hail Caesar,.......HAIL THE BLACK AND GOLD"

Godfather
01-15-2007, 08:30 PM
It's not so much that the percentage matters. But if the percentage is out of whack, it could indicate a problem.

Before the Rooney Rule, a lot of good minority coaches weren't getting a look. Marvin Lewis is one examlpe--great coordinator, and now we know he's a good enough head coach to turn the BUNGHOLES, of all franchises, around.

Another case of the rule working is Lovie Smith. He was given a sham interview to comply with the rule when the Bears planned on hiring $aban. $aban ended up staying at LSU, and Lovie impressed them so much that he got the job.

Another part of the problem--one that's going away--is some teams want to hire a coach with NFL head coaching experience. In the past that meant white. Now, there are black retreads too (Shell, Green, etc.)

Preacher
01-18-2007, 12:21 AM
Without going into too much detail on a footbal thread - yes it is.

NM

LITP...

I have heard as much.

Really fascinated by the social implications... would you be interested in discussing it in another thread?