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Edman
01-23-2007, 09:11 PM
Hi there. I'm practically new here obviously, so sorry if my post isn't quite up to standards just yet. And before you ask, I'm a Steelers fan. :smile: Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Anyways, I was searching the steelers.com board as usual and I came across this CBS Sportsline article.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9949880

I have no comment as of this moment. I'm don't normally talk about these kinds of things too much. I'm not an analyst. But I have to say this, Hopefully Coach T. will be able to shut up the critics.

fansince'76
01-23-2007, 09:17 PM
Welcome to the board. :smile:

I loved Art Rooney, Sr. and Dan Rooney and all they've done over the years. The jury is still out - way out - on Art Rooney II in my eyes at this point.

rags1336
01-23-2007, 10:19 PM
Grimm just seems like the hapless loser, Rooney called him to discuss what his salary requirements were if he did get the position and Grimms eyes lit up like they did when Mark Whipple would bring cake to the coaches meetings, and Grimm thought the job was his. I say good ridance, the guy wasn't even a good OL coach this year, I am glad the Rooney's went in another direction.

fansince'76
01-23-2007, 10:24 PM
Regardless of what anyone thinks of Grimm or Tomlin, this whole thing was botched - badly - by Art II. If this is indicative of how he deals with people in general, I'm worried about this team once Dan Rooney passes on.

Florida_Steelers_Fan
01-23-2007, 10:38 PM
he said vs. he said...we'll never know the truth. the problem is that the media was nosing their way into this, looking to get the story out there first. only God knows how many times tomlin's and grimm's cell phone were ringing with someone wanting information...i get the impression in this internet generation we live in that half (or more) of these crap rumors we read are just made up. whenever i read "sources" i just laugh it off. it's too bad that grimm feels slighted, but i also don't believe that art rooney was trying to be deceptive.

fansince'76
01-23-2007, 10:42 PM
he said vs. he said...we'll never know the truth. the problem is that the media was nosing their way into this, looking to get the story out there first. only God knows how many times tomlin's and grimm's cell phone were ringing with someone wanting information...i get the impression in this internet generation we live in that half (or more) of these crap rumors we read are just made up. whenever i read "sources" i just laugh it off. it's too bad that grimm feels slighted, but i also don't believe that art rooney was trying to be deceptive.

"Rooney said he didn't recall anyone telling Grimm it was OK to notify his family that a decision had been made because, as Rooney said, one had not been made -- until Sunday afternoon."

Didn't recall? Please. I understand the reluctance to take anything the media has to say at face value, but this isn't the only time I've heard or read something negative about Art II. Art Sr. was a saint, and so is Dan, but I'm beginning to form the impression that this guy just may be the "rotten apple" of the family - and every family has at least one. Hope I'm wrong.

Florida_Steelers_Fan
01-23-2007, 10:46 PM
you're right...i highly question art's ability to let the steelers be the centerpiece and not him. it's time for dan to pull him aside and have that "integrity" talk with him and remind him of what the "core values" of this franchise are about. the steelers are not your run-of-the-mill franchise - they ARE different. art better wise up to this and not allow himself to become like these other idiot owners out there that want to be the focal point of the team.

this was truly botched up, but as long as tomlin rakes in the W's all will be fine and eventually go away. but i am a little disappointed that certain things leaked out that should have never been said.

and if grimm allowed himself to get too carried away with this then shame on him as well. i think he started to believe that HE was the man for the job once whiz took off to arizona. the media even hyped him up. that's why it's not over until someone shakes your hand and actually calls you "coach."

SteelerMurf
01-23-2007, 11:11 PM
you're right...i highly question art's ability to let the steelers be the centerpiece and not him. it's time for dan to pull him aside and have that "integrity" talk with him and remind him of what the "core values" of this franchise are about. the steelers are not your run-of-the-mill franchise - they ARE different. art better wise up to this and not allow himself to become like these other idiot owners out there that want to be the focal point of the team.

this was truly botched up, but as long as tomlin rakes in the W's all will be fine and eventually go away. but i am a little disappointed that certain things leaked out that should have never been said.

and if grimm allowed himself to get too carried away with this then shame on him as well. i think he started to believe that HE was the man for the job once whiz took off to arizona. the media even hyped him up. that's why it's not over until someone shakes your hand and actually calls you "coach."

But who botched it? I think it was a bunch of reporters trying to break the story and taking bits and pieces from un-named sources.

Lawyerspeak is all Art is doing with his I don't recall statement.

If the Steelers were so unsure about who to hire as coach that they changed their mind hours after giving Grimm the job....well they weren't ready to make the decision yet and wouldn't have told anyone anything. No way was he offered and then it was revoked unless Grimm himself did something stupid to take himself out of the running.

I don't care cause I didn't want Grimm anyway.

fansince'76
01-23-2007, 11:16 PM
But who botched it? I think it was a bunch of reporters trying to break the story and taking bits and pieces from un-named sources.

Lawyerspeak is all Art is doing with his I don't recall statement.

If the Steelers were so unsure about who to hire as coach that they changed their mind hours after giving Grimm the job....well they weren't ready to make the decision yet and wouldn't have told anyone anything. No way was he offered and then it was revoked unless Grimm himself did something stupid to take himself out of the running.

All good points, however, I don't remember this kind of soap opera playing out during the Noll to Cowher transition either, when Dan was still running the whole show. Suffice it to say I've got doubts about Art II.

Florida_Steelers_Fan
01-23-2007, 11:17 PM
when someone misleads another person or makes a statement of which they "cannot recall" something they said it was botched. all i know is that it appears that grimm was led to believe, rightly or wrongly, that he was the next head coach of the steelers. somebody screwed up and i don't think the media was pulling this stuff out of thin air.

a statement that says, "we did not tell russ grimm that he would be our coach and are not sure how he could have inferred that" would put an end to all of this. oddly enough, art rooney never said this. that tells us that someone bothed this up, or at the very least, failed to properly communicate their intentions clearly.

HometownGal
01-23-2007, 11:19 PM
this isn't the only time I've heard or read something negative about Art II. Art Sr. was a saint, and so is Dan, but I'm beginning to form the impression that this guy just may be the "rotten apple" of the family - and every family has at least one. Hope I'm wrong.

Art II is an attorney (need I say more - LOL!) whose former firm, Klett, Lieber, Rooney & Schorling merged with a very large and well established firm, Buchanon-Ingersoll last year. As a paralegal, I have worked on the opposite site of Mr. Rooney several times and I can tell you from personal experience - he is quite pompous and condescending (like most attorneys) and has the people skills of a buzz saw. He is an excellent and well-respected corporate lawyer - I have to give him that, though he can be likened to a rabid dog from the buzz around the legal circles and my own experiences with him. :bite:

At present, Dan Rooney has the final say in just about everything involving decisions made in the front office and I do not believe for one minute that he would play mind games with any member of his staff - past, present or future- or any human being for that matter. He is a man of integrity and has earned every bit of admiration and respect he is and has been given around the NFL.

fansince'76
01-23-2007, 11:30 PM
Art II is an attorney (need I say more - LOL!) whose former firm, Klett, Lieber, Rooney & Schorling merged with a very large and well established firm, Buchanon-Ingersoll last year. As a paralegal, I have worked on the opposite site of Mr. Rooney several times and I can tell you from personal experience - he is quite pompous and condescending (like most attorneys) and has the people skills of a buzz saw. He is an excellent and well-respected corporate lawyer - I have to give him that, though he can be likened to a rabid dog from the buzz around the legal circles and my own experiences with him.

Thanks for the scoop, HTG! Since I live in Denver and have for years, I'm not up on the local poop in the 'Burgh anymore. You've confirmed my worst fears about Art II. Dan Snyder is/was an excellent IT businessman and also has the people skills of a buzzsaw - and the 'Skins are in the toilet and aren't looking to get out of it anytime soon. Jerry Jones is/was a consummate oilman, also possesses the people skills of a buzzsaw, and the Cowboys haven't won a playoff game in over ten years. I can see long, lean times ahead once Dan Rooney passes (hopefully not for a long time yet, but let's face it, he's getting up there in years).

augustashark
01-23-2007, 11:37 PM
All I will say is that Paul Brown was one of the grandfathers of this league and was one of the best coaches/owners to ever live. Now you look at his son and you think, wow there must have been a tornado the day that apple fell from the tree because it hit about 5 miles down the road.

It is not out of the question to think that Art II's apple fell pretty far from the tree also.

Atlanta Dan
01-23-2007, 11:51 PM
That Sportsline story certainly is not any valentine for the Rooney Way, eh?

T.H. has been saying for some time in other threads that the selection process was $$$ driven, which is the only explanation I had for the sudden emergence of Chan Gailey after the first round of interviews and, in hindsight, "finalist" Ron Rivera being held in strategic reserve and never getting an interview while $$ apparently were discussed with Tomlin and Grimm's agents.

I think an outside hire such as Tomlin is the better choice but Saturday's conflicting rumors may have been prompted by both candidiates being asked "what is your salary number?" and then having their respective reps go to SI.com and the Trib-Review with the impression "what is your salary number?" was an offer. If this came down to selecting who was cheaper then a good choice was made for a bad reason.

The Trib Review has egg on its face from its Grimm is hired story but I do not look for them to write much more about it - no sense in antagonizing the Rooneys and the new HC. Better to play it safe like the P-G did on the hiring story (which I think is out of character for Ed.B.) and be a stenographic service for whatever the Rooneys tell you to print. Even Ron Cook's criticism of the hire is based on the Rooneys allegedly trying to be PC and noble rather than just cheap.

AJR II has had a bad six months as the new face of ownership.

Atlanta Dan
01-24-2007, 12:03 AM
Art II is an attorney (need I say more - LOL!) whose former firm, Klett, Lieber, Rooney & Schorling merged with a very large and well established firm, Buchanon-Ingersoll last year. As a paralegal, I have worked on the opposite site of Mr. Rooney several times and I can tell you from personal experience - he is quite pompous and condescending (like most attorneys) and has the people skills of a buzz saw. He is an excellent and well-respected corporate lawyer - I have to give him that, though he can be likened to a rabid dog from the buzz around the legal circles and my own experiences with him. :bite:

At present, Dan Rooney has the final say in just about everything involving decisions made in the front office and I do not believe for one minute that he would play mind games with any member of his staff - past, present or future- or any human being for that matter. He is a man of integrity and has earned every bit of admiration and respect he is and has been given around the NFL.


I agree Dan Rooney is a legendary owner but he has been letting AJR II drive the family car - Dan had the final say on Cowher leaving (after the extension negotiations handled by AJR II crashed this summer) and Dan presumably had the final say on Tomlin (after such mind games as the Chan Gailey candidacy and God only knows what was going on throughout Saturday)

I further agree Dan Rooney would never play mind games but I know attorneys do during both trials and settlement negotiations in advancing the interests of their clients. Putting the job up (or down?) for bid between 2 candidates to get the candidate you really wanted for a lower price would be something a savvy dealmaker would do as a matter of training and experience - it is not unethical, just a matter of getting the deal done.

That having been said, it has not been how the Rooney family has operated the Steelers - at least until now.

augustashark
01-24-2007, 12:10 AM
I agree Dan Rooney is a legendary owner but he has been letting AJR II drive the family car - Dan had the final say on Cowher leaving (after the extension negotiations handled by AJR II crashed this summer) and Dan presumably had the final say on Tomlin (after such mind games as the Chan Gailey candidacy and God only knows what was going on throughout Saturday)

I further agree Dan Rooney would never play mind games but I know attorneys do during both trials and settlement negotiations in advancing the interests of their clients. Putting the job up (or down?) for bid between 2 candidates to get the candidate you really wanted for a lower price would be something a savvy dealmaker would do as a matter of training and experience - it is not unethical, just a matter of getting the deal done.

That having been said, it has not been how the Rooney family has operated the Steelers - at least until now.

I would take a used car salesman over an attorney.:sofunny: $199/month!:toofunny:

SteelCzar76
01-24-2007, 12:10 AM
I further agree Dan Rooney would never play mind games but I know attorneys do during both trials and settlement negotiations in advancing the interests of their clients. Putting the job up (or down?) for bid between 2 candidates to get the candidate you really wanted for a lower price would be something a savvy dealmaker would do as a matter of training and experience - it is not unethical, just a matter of getting the deal done.






Exactly.

tony hipchest
01-24-2007, 12:50 AM
great takes dan. i could write a whole thesis paper on how these negotiations went down and it was just that. negotiations. cowher was obviously the best coaching candidate out there this year. many have noted how he tanked it. but only cowher could be a lame duck coach in his 2nd to last year in his contract rather than his last year like other coaches.

cowher noted in his farewell speech that he was always offered an extension after his bad years, but wasnt given one after winning the sb. when he bought his "house" (simple real estate investment) he did it knowing negotiations were coming up after the season whether he won a sb or not. he also knew he would be dealing with a different animal this time (artII). that house is what we call leverage.

the rooneys had it to and used it till the end. i dont know exactly when the news broke that tomlin was officially the guy but it seemed to be exactly when it was appearant that rivera would advance to the sb with the bears. the whole crazy deal that played out on saturday wouldve become even crazier had rivera been able to interview on monday and today we could be talking about any of the 3 remaining candidates as our new head coach.

with that being said, even though we were one of the last to make a hire i still wouldnt trade any of our candidates for who miami, atlanta, oakland (and eventually dallas) got/gets. im fairly confident with b. arians at o-coord but sure wish we couldve kept whiz. and credit to the rooneys for paying tomlin fair market value at $2.5 mil/ year, when last years coach of the year and this years NFC representative in the sb is only making $1.35mil.

the rooneys are looking for the next lovie smith and may very well have him.

stlrtruck
01-24-2007, 09:00 AM
Let's face it, no team, can take the privacy act anymore. They try to do things behind closed doors to figure things out and some office idiot decides to play "anonymous" and spill the beans.
There should be as few people as possible in the communication process to avoid such situations.
Either way, maybe Grimm got screwed or maybe he was just to over zealous when they talked salary, it doesn't matter. The past has happened and we now have Titanium Tomlin as our HC!

Atlanta Dan
01-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Based on HTG's much appreciated insights on AJR II having the standard operating personality for a partner in a major law firm and the fact that Cowher is no shrinking violet either, I bet the AJR II/Cowher contract discussions at some point involved some variation on a dynamic of AJR II attempting to tell Cowher who was boss, Cowher telling AJR II that he respects Dan but is not going to be lectured by some snot nosed lawyer who has inherited his cushy job as Steelers CEO, and it going downhill from there.

Everything I have read and heard supports the conclusion AJR II and Cowher detest each other.

Indy_Steelers
01-24-2007, 02:01 PM
:iagree: I agree with you when it comes to not knowing Art II and having doubts about him. There was much more to Cowher leaving than the excuse he gave, and I'm a firm believer that most of it originated with AII. I was convinced once I saw his farwell P.C. and he did not include AII in any of his thank you's. I hope I'm way off base and II ends up being a man of character like Dan is and The Chief was!

I'm smelling 'Steelergate'.

:iagree:

alittlejazzbird
01-24-2007, 03:11 PM
The Tribune-Review (I know, I know, can we take anything they say at face value?) reports this today:

"Rooney II told the Tribune-Review that while the team agreed Saturday on the basics of a contract with Grimm, it was made clear it didn't mean he had the job. ... Rooney II said working out a contract agreement with the two finalists was part of the hiring process."

and also Art II's direct quote: "There's no question in my mind that I told Russ, and I think his representative was told, we weren't going to make a final decision (until Sunday)".

Obviously all sides of this thing have egg on their faces, and it was handled poorly by the Steelers organization and really poorly by the media. I do feel bad for Russ Grimm, who got caught in the middle of it and maybe misunderstood, maybe didn't. As another poster said, we'll never know.

As someone who works for attorneys every day and knows how negotiations work, my gut feeling is that someone much farther down the Steelers' front office food chain had access to highly confidential documents or messages or whatever and decided to leak what they thought they knew. It's tempting to blame Art II because we know he and Cowher didn't get along, but in all honesty it could have just as easily been an executive secretary or low-level management person. I'm not letting AJRII off the hook completely, I'm just saying that there's probably much more to the story than we'll ever know.

HometownGal
01-24-2007, 03:39 PM
Obviously all sides of this thing have egg on their faces, and it was handled poorly by the Steelers organization and really poorly by the media. I do feel bad for Russ Grimm, who got caught in the middle of it and maybe misunderstood, maybe didn't. As another poster said, we'll never know.

As someone who works for attorneys every day and knows how negotiations work, my gut feeling is that someone much farther down the Steelers' front office food chain had access to highly confidential documents or messages or whatever and decided to leak what they thought they knew. It's tempting to blame Art II because we know he and Cowher didn't get along, but in all honesty it could have just as easily been an executive secretary or low-level management person. I'm not letting AJRII off the hook completely, I'm just saying that there's probably much more to the story than we'll ever know.

I do feel badly for Russ Grimm because as you said, he was caught in the middle somewhere, but there were so many rumors flying around out there this past weekend - who knows what really is truth and what is fabrication to sell tribunals? Reporters are sneaky and some of the seediest human beings known to man.

I definitely agree that there is a mole(s) in the Steelers FO - that is obvious when these reporters mention their "sources". Whoever he/she/they is/are, I hope they get nailed - leaking confidential "company" information is not only unprofessional, it is highly unethical.

Dan - you make a very sound point in your post above. :thumbsup: From my dealings with AJRII and listening to some of Cowher's post-game and weekly press conferences, these two are cut somewhat from the same cloth as far as hard-headedness and arrogance go. Bill Cowher was a fantastic coach and a genuinely good person, just as AJRII is an excellent corporate attorney and trusted by his father to handle a good share of the load, but two strong and abrasive personalities like these two were bound to clash. Dan Rooney seems like more of the gentlemanly old-school type - AJRII has never come across to me that way and neither did Cowher, though I respected and adored him.

Atlanta Dan
01-24-2007, 03:55 PM
Well, with regard to the leaks AJR II vaguely casts blame as follows:

"I think the league people caused some confusion, which was unfortunate, but that didn't come from us."

The Steelers were furious over reports that surfaced Saturday on SI.com and ESPN that Tomlin had been chosen as their head coach. They insisted they did not pick their coach until Sunday. Rooney blamed "league people" for those reports.

"Let's put it this way, I think I know where both of the leaks came from and I think it's unfortunate when people talk about something when you're dealing with these things," Rooney said, then quoted an old Yogi Berra saying. "It ain't over 'til it's over, and people were claiming something was over when it was not."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07024/756276-66.stm

This would seem to exonerate the agents and Steeler employees, but who knows. I think AJR II has learned a lesson in dealing with the media - let's just hope he does not need to use his newly acquired expertise in coach hiring anytime soon.

Florida_Steelers_Fan
01-24-2007, 10:29 PM
i blame this on grimm's agent...sounds like the agent got a little giddy too soon. contract numbers didn't mean an actual contract and it looks like the misunderstanding was the agent's inability to be patient.