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83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 09:42 AM
Retired NBA star Hardaway says he hates 'gay people'
ESPN.com news services


Former Miami Heat guard Tim Hardaway said on a radio show Wednesday afternoon that he would not want a gay player on his team.

"You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known," Hardaway said. "I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

Hardaway was a guest of Miami Herald columnist Dan Le Batard on the Miami radio show Sports Talk 790 and was asked how he would deal with a gay teammate. When asked if he would accept an active player's coming out, such as that of retired NBA center John Amaechi, Hardaway replied: "First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team.

"And second of all, if he was on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right. And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that," he said. John Amaechi on Mike & Mike
John Amaechi will stop by "Mike & Mike In The Morning" at 7:20 a.m. ET on Thursday and respond to Tim Hardaway's comments.

NBA Commissioner David Stern, upon learning of the remarks Wednesday, removed Hardaway from subsequent league-related appearances. "It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours," Stern said in a statement to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

Hardaway has been taking part in NBA festivities ahead of Sunday's All-Star game in Las Vegas and attended an NBA Cares outreach event at a city YMCA with Knicks forward Jerome Williams on Tuesday.

Amaechi, meanwhile, was quoted in Le Batard's column in Thursday's Miami Herald saying that he was grateful for Hardaway's words.

"Finally, someone who is honest. It is ridiculous, absurb, petty, bigoted and shows a lack of empathy that is gargantuan and unfathomable. But it is honest. And it illustrates the problem better than any of the fuzzy language other people have used so far."

Hardaway, later saying he regretted the remarks, apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

Hardaway played for five NBA teams from 1990-2003 and was a five-time All-Star. He finished with averages of 17.7 points and 8.2 assists.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2766213

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 09:50 AM
i guess his new name is Tim "keep that" Hardonaway.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 09:54 AM
i guess his new name is Tim "keep that" Hardonaway.

:toofunny:


Marv Albert "YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!"

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-15-2007, 09:57 AM
i guess his new name is Tim "keep that" Hardonaway.

That is sooo wrong...(and soooo funny):sofunny: :sofunny:

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 10:20 AM
Keep in mind, this is the same idiot that made this comment........

"I deserve a lot more respect than I'm getting," Hardaway said. "I took less money to stay there. (Riley) said he'd take care of me, and it hasn't happened yet. I want to be there, but I've got to look out for Tim Hardaway and Tim Hardaway's family."

I love when athletes refer to themselves in the third person.

alittlejazzbird
02-15-2007, 10:57 AM
i guess his new name is Tim "keep that" Hardonaway.


OK, now that was funny!!!!!!! :sofunny:

Seriously, though, it's sad to be reminded periodically of how little we've actually accomplished in terms of tolerance in our society. I believe that Mr. Hardaway's sentiments are echoed, though not necessarily spoken aloud, by a great many other professional athletes. And that's unfortunate.

People are products of their environment, as Mike Greenberg said this morning on ESPN Radio. He grew up in Greenwich Village, saw same-sex couples holding hands all the time, and grew up thinking "so what?" I'm a (heterosexual, not that it matters) professional musician, and a good portion of my friends and colleagues are gay (including some people who would absolutely shock you to your core if you knew). I've been around a huge diversity of people all my life, and I for one embrace all the differences among us - they're what make us all unique and interesting. Tim Hardaway clearly grew up in an narrow-minded atmosphere of bigotry and hatred, and his comments come from his history just as much as they do from ignorance and fear.

Here's the thing: any prejudice or phobia is born of fear. Whether it's toward someone whose skin color, national origin, sexual orientation, weight, gender, or political or religious beliefs differ from a person's own, or if they avoid snakes, small spaces, or going out of the house, it all stems from fear.

A wise person once told me that average, reasonably well-adjusted people in society simply go about the business of living their daily lives, unconcerned with how other people choose to live theirs even if they don't agree with those choices. Intolerant people who are actively hating homosexuals (or any other "different" group), and who react with anger or violence, are very much afraid of something. As this person said to me, "the homophobic men who are verbally or physically bashing gays are almost always closeted gays themselves." Remember Chris Cooper's stunning performance in "American Beauty?" That's who I think of at times like this.

Please understand, I am not in any way implying anything about Mr. Hardaway. All I am saying is that in my personal opinion, instead of issuing what's probably the lamest and least heartfelt apology I've heard this side of Terrell Owens, Mr. Hardaway should try to figure out what he's really afraid of, so that he doesn't keep actively perpetuating his ridiculous, outdated macho athlete stereotype. Maybe then he could be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 11:06 AM
OK, now that was funny!!!!!!! :sofunny:

Seriously, though, it's sad to be reminded periodically of how little we've actually accomplished in terms of tolerance in our society. I believe that Mr. Hardaway's sentiments are echoed, though not necessarily spoken aloud, by a great many other professional athletes. And that's unfortunate.

People are products of their environment, as Mike Greenberg said this morning on ESPN Radio. He grew up in Greenwich Village, saw same-sex couples holding hands all the time, and grew up thinking "so what?" I'm a (heterosexual, not that it matters) professional musician, and a good portion of my friends and colleagues are gay (including some people who would absolutely shock you to your core if you knew). I've been around a huge diversity of people all my life, and I for one embrace all the differences among us - they're what make us all unique and interesting. Tim Hardaway clearly grew up in an narrow-minded atmosphere of bigotry and hatred, and his comments come from his history just as much as they do from ignorance and fear.

Here's the thing: any prejudice or phobia is born of fear. Whether it's toward someone whose skin color, national origin, sexual orientation, weight, gender, or political or religious beliefs differ from a person's own, or if they avoid snakes, small spaces, or going out of the house, it all stems from fear.

A wise person once told me that average, reasonably well-adjusted people in society simply go about the business of living their daily lives, unconcerned with how other people choose to live theirs even if they don't agree with those choices. Intolerant people who are actively hating homosexuals (or any other "different" group), and who react with anger or violence, are very much afraid of something. As this person said to me, "the homophobic men who are verbally or physically bashing gays are almost always closeted gays themselves." Remember Chris Cooper's stunning performance in "American Beauty?" That's who I think of at times like this.

Please understand, I am not in any way implying anything about Mr. Hardaway. All I am saying is that in my personal opinion, instead of issuing what's probably the lamest and least heartfelt apology I've heard this side of Terrell Owens, Mr. Hardaway should try to figure out what he's really afraid of, so that he doesn't keep actively perpetuating his ridiculous, outdated macho athlete stereotype. Maybe then he could be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Well stated and I agree completely. Personally, I really don't care what a person's sexual preference happens to be. It's none of my business and at the same time, I really don't care to hear/know what a person's sexual preference happens to be. Which brings me to my next question.

Alittlejazzbird, I would like to hear your opinion. Do you think it's a must for every person who is in the spotlight and who also happens to be gay announce that they are in fact homosexual?

Example: Dan Marino is married with kids. Should he stand up in front of the media camera's and announce he's straight? Much like with Amaechi, I would say to Dan Marino "congratulations, here's a cookie, more power to you".

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 11:15 AM
best opening lines to a pro atheletes press conference ever:

"first of all, im not gay."

-mike piazza

jim rome kills me with his takes on piazza having to hold this conference and come out of the closet to say hes NOT gay.

alittlejazzbird
02-15-2007, 11:35 AM
Alittlejazzbird, I would like to hear your opinion. Do you think it's a must for every person who is in the spotlight and who also happens to be gay announce that they are in fact homosexual?

No, not at all. And your Dan Marino example is a point well taken. In my perfect world, it would be a complete non-issue whether a person is gay or straight, and no one would care in the slightest.

I think in some ways, though, that people who have a public forum can be instruments of change simply because they can reach vast numbers of people. Remember how revolutionary it was when Ellen DeGeneres came out? Because she took that first step, a TV show like Will & Grace, which never would have aired 15 years ago, became a successful series. So in that respect, if Mr. Amaechi's comments start a dialogue that can open minds and hearts to the possibility of positive change, then I'm all for it.

See, the thing about homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, is that their sexual life is only a part of who they are. Dan Marino was a fabulous football player who just happens to be straight. Mr. Amaechi was a well-regarded basketball player who just happens to be gay. Mr. Hardaway's fears probably stem from his concern that a gay teammate might have tried to hit on him, and then what? I've been hit on a time or two by gay women (including musicians with whom I have an ongoing professional relationship), and have always answered the same way, "I'm very flattered, but no thanks, I'm straight." The end. No one has ever gotten aggressive, or threatening, or made my work life intolerable. It becomes a non-issue. Whether you're a man or a woman, straight people receive unwelcome advances from other straight people all the time, right? So you deal with it and move on. Bad behavior crosses gender and sexual orientation lines.

Sorry if that's a little long-winded, 83-Steelers-43, it's just that it's an issue I really care about because it affects so many people who are close to me.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 11:40 AM
No, not at all. And your Dan Marino example is a point well taken. In my perfect world, it would be a complete non-issue whether a person is gay or straight, and no one would care in the slightest.

I think in some ways, though, that people who have a public forum can be instruments of change simply because they can reach vast numbers of people. Remember how revolutionary it was when Ellen DeGeneres came out? Because she took that first step, a TV show like Will & Grace, which never would have aired 15 years ago, became a successful series. So in that respect, if Mr. Amaechi's comments start a dialogue that can open minds and hearts to the possibility of positive change, then I'm all for it.

See, the thing about homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, is that their sexual life is only a part of who they are. Dan Marino was a fabulous football player who just happens to be straight. Mr. Amaechi was a well-regarded basketball player who just happens to be gay. Mr. Hardaway's fears probably stem from his concern that a gay teammate might have tried to hit on him, and then what? I've been hit on a time or two by gay women (including musicians with whom I have an ongoing professional relationship), and have always answered the same way, "I'm very flattered, but no thanks, I'm straight." The end. No one has ever gotten aggressive, or threatening, or made my work life intolerable. It becomes a non-issue. Whether you're a man or a woman, straight people receive unwelcome advances from other straight people all the time, right? So you deal with it and move on. Bad behavior crosses gender and sexual orientation lines.

Sorry if that's a little long-winded, 83-Steelers-43, it's just that it's an issue I really care about because it affects so many people who are close to me.

I see and understand. Not long-winded at all. Very informative and makes sense for the most part. As a straight person and who doesn't care what a person's sexual preference happens to be, although I admit I do find it overbearing at times when people make it a point to announce that they are gay, very much like how I would feel if everybody who happened to be straight felt the need to announce it. I'm not sure if that makes me a bad person or not but that's just how I feel. Thanks for the response and the interesting insight/conversation.

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
Maybe I'm in the minority on this...but I DO sort of understand were an athlete would have a RIGHT to know.
In my case..I served in the army and looked at it this way...Female soldiers have a right to not be quartered with male soldiers if it can be helped..and most certainly have a right to not have to shower and use the same bathroom facilities as males.
Even if no male EVER even says a word to them..never even looks at them,,the female can justiviably say that she was placed in a situation that by common sense standards can be called sexually intimidating

As a male..I have the same right to not be put into that situation.

There is a serious double standard in this regards. If I say I dont want to be in a situation like this..I would be viewed as homophobic

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 11:51 AM
Maybe I'm in the minority on this...but I DO sort of understand were an athlete would have a RIGHT to know.
In my case..I served in the army and looked at it this way...Female soldiers have a right to not be quartered with male soldiers if it can be helped..and most certainly have a right to not have to shower and use the same bathroom facilities as males.
Even if no male EVER even says a word to them..never even looks at them,,the female can justiviably say that she was placed in a situation that by common sense standards can be called sexually intimidating

As a male..I have the same right to not be put into that situation.

There is a serious double standard in this regards. If I say I dont want to be in a situation like this..I would be viewed as homophobic

Good point. When I played ice hockey I would not be surprised if there were gay players on my team. Now, I would feel a little odd being in the shower with a gay man. Much like I would with a straight woman that I did not know personally. It's a different "odd", but it's still odd nonetheless.

If I knew a certain player on my team was gay I would probably wait until I got home to take a shower. Much like I would if there was a girl on my team. While I may have a vision of a bad episode of "OZ" going through my head, it has more to do with the fact that person in that shower likes the same sex that I happen to be. The same would be true of a straight woman in the shower as a straight male. Actually, our HC's daughter and a few of her friends were on the team (in a different league) for a year and they showered and changed in a different lockerroom.

Double standard is right.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 12:04 PM
For some reason, I now feel the need to drink beer, eat raw meat (don't go there Tony) and grunt like a caveman after this conversation...lol.

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 12:17 PM
For some reason, I now feel the need to drink beer, eat raw meat (don't go there Tony) and grunt like a caveman after this conversation...lol. :toofunny:

c'mon, a little sushi never hurt anyone. you know, some red snapper, fur bearing trout, or a bearded clam. :chuckle:

but since were on the topic, i'd like to announce to steelersfever (and the rest of the world) that i am straight. whew, glad i got that off my chest. no sausage parties for me. :banana:

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 12:31 PM
i'd like to announce to steelersfever (and the rest of the world) that i am straight. whew, glad i got that off my chest. no sausage parties for me. :banana:

Hey! I announced that I was straight first. Your just trying to sell more books and get more press. :flap:

PisnNapalm
02-15-2007, 12:35 PM
Awe come one... Tim just need to eat a couple Snickers bars and he'll be cured.

memphissteelergirl
02-15-2007, 12:35 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority on this...but I DO sort of understand were an athlete would have a RIGHT to know.
In my case..I served in the army and looked at it this way...Female soldiers have a right to not be quartered with male soldiers if it can be helped..and most certainly have a right to not have to shower and use the same bathroom facilities as males.
Even if no male EVER even says a word to them..never even looks at them,,the female can justiviably say that she was placed in a situation that by common sense standards can be called sexually intimidating

As a male..I have the same right to not be put into that situation.

There is a serious double standard in this regards. If I say I dont want to be in a situation like this..I would be viewed as homophobic


LLT, I agree with you on this. Although I think Hardaway's comments were ridiculously over the top and downright mean-spirited, I kind of understand the premise.

My personal belief is that homosexuality is wrong, but please do not lump me in with that moronic bunch of so-called Christians who go around with protest signs saying "God hates f***." God is love, so he cannot hate anyone...ok I'm digressing a little.

Anyway, I think if I were a (straight) male basketball player, I would be more than slightly uncomfortable if put in that situation, although many may see it as short-sighted, I think people have a right to their feelings. I know a few gay and bi-sexual men as well as lesbians, and I get along with them. Would I say we are close friends? No, but I do not make a point of condemning them.

Hardaway made a complete jackass of himself. He could have been a lot more careful in his answer....something like "I have to be honest..I cannot say I would be comfortable with a gay man as a teammate." Instead he shot off at the mouth and came across as ignorant and bigoted.

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 12:36 PM
Hey! I announced that I was straight first. Your just trying to sell more books and get more press. :flap:lol. nah, i just want more chicks! :lust:

alittlejazzbird
02-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Good point. When I played ice hockey I would not be surprised if there were gay players on my team. Now, I would feel a little odd being in the shower with a gay man. Much like I would with a straight woman that I did not know personally. It's a different "odd", but it's still odd nonetheless.

If I knew a certain player on my team was gay I would probably wait until I got home to take a shower. Much like I would if there was a girl on my team. While I may have a vision of a bad episode of "OZ" going through my head, it has more to do with the fact that person in that shower likes the same sex that I happen to be. The same would be true of a straight woman in the shower as a straight male. Actually, our HC's daughter and a few of her friends were on the team (in a different league) for a year and they showered and changed in a different lockerroom.

Double standard is right.

Good point, 83, and I get where you're coming from. In all honesty, I'm not sure how to address that issue, except to say that there are indeed gay people in professional sports, so the whole shower/locker room issue definitely does occur, whether others know it at the time or not. I do understand your level of discomfort, even though I myself would not feel that way if I were in a shower or locker room with a gay female.

Let me ask you this, though -- assuming your teammate is a skilled and talented athlete who is more than capable of helping your team win (as could certainly be said about Mr. Amaechi), would you accept him as a team member without reservation, simply in terms of his professional abilities, if you knew he was gay? That's the bigger issue for me -- that even if someone's lifestyle causes some personal discomfort, it can be put aside in a professional capacity. After all, whether you're a professional athlete or an accountant or a brain surgeon or a minister or a secretary or whatever, it's highly probable that there are gay people somewhere in your workplace every day. Aside from Mr. Hardaway saying that he hates gay people, to me the second most inflammatory remark he made is that "I wouldn't want him on my team."

Not unlike the way most of us feel about Coach Tomlin (i.e., no one cares if he's purple as long as he's a good coach, the players like and respect him, and the Steelers WIN), I think all of our professional lives could be vastly improved if we could put aside our personal prejudices and judge our co-workers solely on the basis of what they bring professionally to the team.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 12:39 PM
lol. nah, i just want more chicks! :lust:

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/News/9903/29/showbuzz/rupaul.jpg

pitt
02-15-2007, 12:42 PM
I don't think Tim Hardaway should of apologized for his comments. He is entitled to his own opinion. Personally I get aggravated when people call others homophobic simply because they are against the gay lifestyle. I do not have a phobia about gays. I do not fear gays. I just think that the gay lifestyle is completely unnatural and disgusting. It goes against God and nature. Since it is legal, what a gay person does in their own home is their business....BUT once they go out on parade with a lesbian dressed as a lumberjack with a strap on toy sticking out from her and a guy wearing a pink tutu dances in the street it becomes my business too. When they put books like Robert Has Two Daddies and Heather Has Two Mommies in elementary schools it becomes my business and every other parents business. When people try to tell my children that "it's ok to be gay" and that it is completely natural, that there isn't anything wrong with it ...it becomes my business. My morals, values, and Bible says its wrong. Why is a religious person told they are intolerant and need to change or be silent when they try to talk about their beliefs in God, family values and morals but an athiest is applauded and handed a microphone to say Don't believe?Why is a group of children told they are not allowed to pray quietly together on their own in a school because is may offend others who have a different belief but the school allows a group of gay and lesbian kids hold group meetings? If the ACLU is going to tell me to shut up if I say gay lifestlyes are offensive then they need to tell the athiest to shut up when he says my Nativity scene at Christmas (Christmas is a celebration of Christ's birthday, not shiny lights).
Athletes shower and change in the same room together. Would you want a gay guy looking at you while you were getting dressed? Would it make you uncomfortable knowing he may be looking at you in way he shouldn't? Having sexual thoughts about you? Aids is a real threat in the homosexual community. Players get cuts and various wounds while playing all the time. The chances that a gay guy has aids and also happens to bleed or sweat on a cut of your own is extremely, extremely, extremely remote but not impossible.
Everyone needs to remember TOLERANCE GOES BOTH WAYS!

MACH1
02-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Yeah I don't think I'd be bending over to pick the bar of soap if I knew there was a gay guy on my team. In a locker room, shower I'd feel a bit uncomfortable with it.

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 12:44 PM
Let me ask you this, though -- assuming your teammate is a skilled and talented athlete who is more than capable of helping your team win (as could certainly be said about Mr. Amaechi), would you accept him as a team member without reservation, simply in terms of his professional abilities, if you knew he was gay? That's the bigger issue for me -- that even if someone's lifestyle causes some personal discomfort, it can be put aside in a professional capacity. After all, whether you're a professional athlete or an accountant or a brain surgeon or a minister or a secretary or whatever, it's highly probable that there are gay people somewhere in your workplace every day. Aside from Mr. Hardaway saying that he hates gay people, to me the second most inflammatory remark he made is that "I wouldn't want him on my team."

If my teammate who happens to be gay was the next Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux I would still feel uncomfortable being in the same shower with him.

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 12:51 PM
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/News/9903/29/showbuzz/rupaul.jpg

LMAO!!!

If my teammate who happens to be gay was the next Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux I would still feel uncomfortable being in the same shower with him.

maybe they should start putting baths in the locker room?

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-15-2007, 01:35 PM
:toofunny:

c'mon, a little sushi never hurt anyone. you know, some red snapper, fur bearing trout, or a bearded clam. :chuckle:

but since were on the topic, i'd like to announce to steelersfever (and the rest of the world) that i am straight. whew, glad i got that off my chest. no sausage parties for me. :banana:

so..that snicker moment we shared.....it didnt mean anything to you!!!!???

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-15-2007, 01:39 PM
Good point, 83, and I get where you're coming from. In all honesty, I'm not sure how to address that issue, except to say that there are indeed gay people in professional sports, so the whole shower/locker room issue definitely does occur, whether others know it at the time or not. I do understand your level of discomfort, even though I myself would not feel that way if I were in a shower or locker room with a gay female.

Let me ask you this, though -- assuming your teammate is a skilled and talented athlete who is more than capable of helping your team win (as could certainly be said about Mr. Amaechi), would you accept him as a team member without reservation, simply in terms of his professional abilities, if you knew he was gay? That's the bigger issue for me -- that even if someone's lifestyle causes some personal discomfort, it can be put aside in a professional capacity. After all, whether you're a professional athlete or an accountant or a brain surgeon or a minister or a secretary or whatever, it's highly probable that there are gay people somewhere in your workplace every day. Aside from Mr. Hardaway saying that he hates gay people, to me the second most inflammatory remark he made is that "I wouldn't want him on my team."

Not unlike the way most of us feel about Coach Tomlin (i.e., no one cares if he's purple as long as he's a good coach, the players like and respect him, and the Steelers WIN), I think all of our professional lives could be vastly improved if we could put aside our personal prejudices and judge our co-workers solely on the basis of what they bring professionally to the team.

I personally would be happy to have a gay teammate who was skilled and talented.....(on the field)....In fact I have no problem with inviting them home for dinner and going out with them on the town....but I dont apologize for not wanting to be forced into a situation in wich I am nude with them...again..seems like common sense to me.

Preacher
02-15-2007, 02:28 PM
As a conservative evangelical pastor in a southern baptist church just outside San Francisco CA, I may have a unique perspective on this discussion.

First, in the general arena of life, I could care less who does what with whom, as long as it doesn't affect the job. Therefore, if my tax accountant, banker, roofer, etc. is gay, who cares. As long as he or she does a great job. I have worked with and for many gay people in the outside world. Some I have thoroughly enjoyed working with/for, others, well, I was SO happy to no longer work for them. Guess what.. I had the same experiences with straight bosses.

As far as the church goes, it is a COMPLETELY different story. We are responsible to live by and express the message of Jesus Christ, which includes what is and is not sin. When I discuss this part of my faith, I normally do it in this way, "All sexuality outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin, does that include homosexuality? Yes. That also includes heterosexuality. It is not about the fact that someone engages in homosexuality, it is about the fact that ANY sexuality outside of the marriage covenant is engaged in."

Here is what I am REALLY afraid of though. Freedom of speach is quickly becoming freedom of politically correct speach. Incorrect speach is starting to be legislated and THAT scare me.

Furthermore, what those who do live in the gay lifestyle MUST recognize on the political front is, historically, where Christianity goes in a society, homosexuality quickly follows. Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

In this instance, politics makes REAL STRANGE bed-fellows.

fansince'76
02-15-2007, 02:37 PM
I don't think Tim Hardaway should of apologized for his comments. He is entitled to his own opinion.

Couldn't agree more - I'm sick of the rampant political correctness in society today. Not everybody is going to like or get along with everyone else, so deal with it.

SteelCzar76
02-15-2007, 02:45 PM
I don't think Tim Hardaway should of apologized for his comments. He is entitled to his own opinion. Personally I get aggravated when people call others homophobic simply because they are against the gay lifestyle. I do not have a phobia about gays. I do not fear gays. I just think that the gay lifestyle is completely unnatural and disgusting. It goes against God and nature. Since it is legal, what a gay person does in their own home is their business....BUT once they go out on parade with a lesbian dressed as a lumberjack with a strap on toy sticking out from her and a guy wearing a pink tutu dances in the street it becomes my business too. When they put books like Robert Has Two Daddies and Heather Has Two Mommies in elementary schools it becomes my business and every other parents business. When people try to tell my children that "it's ok to be gay" and that it is completely natural, that there isn't anything wrong with it ...it becomes my business. Why is a group of children told they are not allowed to pray quietly together on their own in a school because is may offend others who have a different belief but the school allows a group of gay and lesbian kids hold group meetings?
Athletes shower and change in the same room together. Would you want a gay guy looking at you while you were getting dressed? Would it make you uncomfortable knowing he may be looking at you in way he shouldn't? .




Very well said Pitt,.....the best post of this thread. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs, opinions and or moral values. But none should be 'forced' upon others simply for the sake of the social 'comfort' of those whom peronally choose to live a particular lifestyle.
As ive said before homosexuality is nothing like ethnicity, gender or being born into a certain economic 'caste'. So though homosexuals shouldn't neccessarily be persecuted. I don't believe that our society should make any concessions for them either.

Mosca
02-15-2007, 04:16 PM
Tim Hardaway can say whatever he wants, but he has no right to immunity from the repercussions of what he says. Those who agree with him are free to support him, and those who disagree are also free to slag on him. And companies looking for spokespeople are free to fire him or pass him by. Or hire him.

I don't see anything politically incorrect about that, does anyone else?

And, straight people DO constantly flaunt their sexuality, it just doesn't hit our radar the same way. But to give two examples from basketball: Wilt Chamberlain. Dennis Rodman.

pitt, Hardaway called himself homophobic. I know what you meant, I only want to point out that in this instance the label was self-appointed. And I think there is a difference between being "against a gay lifestyle" and saying that you hate gays. People who are against a gay lifestyle might preach against it; people who hate homosexuals beat, mutilate, torture, and kill them.

I think it's ok for you to not be in favor of a gay lifestyle, but I don't think it's ok to foment hatred of gay people (and I don't think you do, either). Too often, hatred leads to action on that hatred, whether it is gays, blacks, Jews, Muslims, or yes, as Preacher noted, Christians. It is wrong to legislate hate speech... but it is also wrong for us as individuals to accept it. Standing up and speaking against it is what those of us who feel that way should do.


Tom

sumo
02-15-2007, 04:19 PM
Here is what I am REALLY afraid of though. Freedom of speach is quickly becoming freedom of politically correct speach. Incorrect speach is starting to be legislated and THAT scare me.

Furthermore, what those who do live in the gay lifestyle MUST recognize on the political front is, historically, where Christianity goes in a society, homosexuality quickly follows. Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc.

In this instance, politics makes REAL STRANGE bed-fellows.

Preach you bring up a good point - religion aside for a moment, free speech is quickly becoming free speech for those who fall within liberal-political correctness guidelines - and tolerance is largely reserved for those who preach complete intolerance ie radical muslims, gay activists, militant feminists, etc - I believe all these groups I list have every right to protest, march in parades, go on strikes, etc as long as it's peaceful - but they need to afford the rest of the country the same privilege when their views are challenged..

I stood up to speak at a town forum once a bout 3 years ago concerning Christmas decorations/lights going up at a local park...even though I had a microphone no one coud hear me, because a small group of people who didn't want to listen to anyone were yelling and calling me names like "nut job"(they might have been correct with this one), homophobe, christian right wing nazi, etc etc ...

meanjoecoop
02-15-2007, 04:48 PM
:tap: Hardaway...didn't he sing that song "What is Love" ??? :wink02:

http://a.movies.com/images/movies/a/AnightAtTheRoxbury_1998.jpg

83-Steelers-43
02-15-2007, 04:50 PM
:tap: Hardaway...didn't he sing that song "What is Love" ??? :wink02:

http://a.movies.com/images/movies/a/AnightAtTheRoxbury_1998.jpg

No silly, Hardaway sang "Karma Chameleon". :smile:

fansince'76
02-15-2007, 05:06 PM
Tim Hardaway can say whatever he wants, but he has no right to immunity from the repercussions of what he says. Those who agree with him are free to support him, and those who disagree are also free to slag on him. And companies looking for spokespeople are free to fire him or pass him by. Or hire him.

I don't see anything politically incorrect about that, does anyone else?

I was referring more to special interest groups (i.e. NAMBLA) that pounce on these sorts of incidents and put all kinds of pressure on the TV/radio station to force the person who made the statement(s) to apologize under duress. THAT I have a problem with, sorry.

meanjoecoop
02-15-2007, 05:08 PM
No silly, Hardaway sang "Karma Chameleon". :smile:

I thought that was George Michael? :sissies: or was it Boy George?

SteelCzar76
02-15-2007, 05:38 PM
And, straight people DO constantly flaunt their sexuality, it just doesn't hit our radar the same way. But to give two examples from basketball: Wilt Chamberlain. Dennis Rodman.
Tom


The last time i checked Mosca,..... Men and Women were biologically designed to be together. (Though i'm not neccessarily 'oppossed' to beautiful bi sexual women.)

Yes, when it comes to some things,......."It appears my hipocrisy knows no bounds" LOL

Mosca
02-15-2007, 05:51 PM
The last time i checked Mosca,..... Men and Women were biologically designed to be together. (Though i'm not neccessarily 'oppossed' to beautiful bi sexual women.)

Yes, when it comes to some things,......."It appears my hipocrisy knows no bounds" LOL


Hey Steel, I was only pointing out that it happens, not making a challenge. Not wantin' to be yer huckleberry here. It's not a challengeable point, but Chamberlain's and Rodman's reputed excesses might be, don't you think?

Leave it to The Onion to lampoon just about anything...

John Amaechi Comes Out As Former NBA Player

STOCKPORT, ENGLAND?British homosexual John Amaechi sent shockwaves throughout the sporting world last week when he announced, much to the surprise of his family and friends?in addition to NBA players and fans?that he lived a double life for five years in which he secretly worked as a professional basketball player.

Link to article (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/john_amaechi_comes_out_as_former)

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 05:55 PM
The last time i checked Mosca,..... Men and Women were biologically designed to be together. (Though i'm not neccessarily 'oppossed' to beautiful bi sexual women.)

who knows, maybe one day modern medicine will come up with a way that man can give birth out of his anus and we can put this whole "biologically designed" roadblock to rest.

:chuckle:

SteelCzar76
02-15-2007, 06:07 PM
who knows, maybe one day modern medicine will come up with a way that man can give birth out of his anus and we can put this whole "biologically designed" roadblock to rest.

:chuckle:


(Borat voice:) "Eehhhh,.....i'm thinking,... not so much Tone"! "I would very much shy away from such,..... medical advancement " :sofunny: :sofunny:

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 06:39 PM
Hey Steel, I was only pointing out that it happens, not making a challenge. Not wantin' to be yer huckleberry here. It's not a challengeable point, but Chamberlain's and Rodman's reputed excesses might be, don't you think?

Leave it to The Onion to lampoon just about anything...

John Amaechi Comes Out As Former NBA Player

STOCKPORT, ENGLAND?British homosexual John Amaechi sent shockwaves throughout the sporting world last week when he announced, much to the surprise of his family and friends?in addition to NBA players and fans?that he lived a double life for five years in which he secretly worked as a professional basketball player.

Link to article (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/john_amaechi_comes_out_as_former)

:rofl:

sumo
02-15-2007, 09:27 PM
who knows, maybe one day modern medicine will come up with a way that man can give birth out of his anus and we can put this whole "biologically designed" roadblock to rest.

:chuckle:

DUDE!!!

Preacher
02-15-2007, 10:47 PM
Tim Hardaway can say whatever he wants, but he has no right to immunity from the repercussions of what he says. Those who agree with him are free to support him, and those who disagree are also free to slag on him. And companies looking for spokespeople are free to fire him or pass him by. Or hire him.

I don't see anything politically incorrect about that, does anyone else?

And, straight people DO constantly flaunt their sexuality, it just doesn't hit our radar the same way. But to give two examples from basketball: Wilt Chamberlain. Dennis Rodman.

pitt, Hardaway called himself homophobic. I know what you meant, I only want to point out that in this instance the label was self-appointed. And I think there is a difference between being "against a gay lifestyle" and saying that you hate gays. People who are against a gay lifestyle might preach against it; people who hate homosexuals beat, mutilate, torture, and kill them.

I think it's ok for you to not be in favor of a gay lifestyle, but I don't think it's ok to foment hatred of gay people (and I don't think you do, either). Too often, hatred leads to action on that hatred, whether it is gays, blacks, Jews, Muslims, or yes, as Preacher noted, Christians. It is wrong to legislate hate speech... but it is also wrong for us as individuals to accept it. Standing up and speaking against it is what those of us who feel that way should do.


Tom

You are absolutely right. The problem I have is that many people who are yelling and screaming about this, are the same ones that are upset that the Dixie Chicks are experiencing a lull in thier career for thier comments on the president.

What also gets me is that you can now be taken to court for the use of certain words. that is absolutely wrong.

tony hipchest
02-15-2007, 11:05 PM
What also gets me is that you can now be taken to court for the use of certain words. that is absolutely wrong.
:jawdrop: lemme guess...

"retard"
"obnoxious" &
"bungle"

are 3 of those words.

could hardaway be sued if he called amaechi a "fag"? i bet he could in massachusettes.

Borski
02-16-2007, 12:06 AM
Ok, i think Hate was too hard of a word.

But, in High School would the girls want a guy in the shower with them. it would make them uncomfortable.

I for one would not want someone in the locker room while I was changing who is gay, I wouldn't mind playing with them. but guy and girls have different locker rooms, mabey they need to do something similar

Borski
02-16-2007, 12:19 AM
But I think Hardaway had every right to say what he said. free speech is going down the drain because of this politically correct country.

for example, some one said Barack Obama isn't black because hes family moved here after slavery, she didnt even cal him African American. according to her he was African-African American. politically correct people are idiots themselfs.

Suitanim
02-16-2007, 07:17 PM
The hypocrisy is so thick I can barely post through it. The usual suspects, of course, show up. LITP, Mosca, etc...you know, the "Intellectuals" who have already determined exactly what is right and wrong for the rest of us to think.

Tin Hardaway was a breath of ancient and stale air. He just said things that haven't changed at all. Many, many, many people feel the way he does. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He spoke his mind. But he's wrong.

Think about that for a second. When did voicing your opinion become wrong in this Country? Never...until the liberal view of political correctness took over.

Was Hardaway wrong? No. Was he intolerant? Yes? Tasteless? Yes. Ignorant? Yes. But he is entitled to his opinion and should fear no repercussion. But the inmates have taken over the asylum. Hell, you've got a Pats fan running this board. And he has enough power to gig me for PM's I sent to him and him alone. It's not cool to selectively censor speech, and I see that kind of thing happening here.

Mosca
02-17-2007, 09:40 AM
Jeez, Suitanim, how is what I wrote hypocritical?

I prefaced every point that was my own with "I think". So that I wasn't coming from any point of view that was anything other than my own.

Even though we are at odds, I though about what you wrote last time (I even included it in my signature for a while, until I decided I liked Coach Tomlin's quote) and decided you had a point. Gimme a break, will ya? After all, I'm entitled to my opinion, too. It doesn't have to match yours. You're doing the same thing to me that you are saying is wrong to do to Hardaway! Isn't that the height of hypocrisy? I didn't criticize him for saying what he said; all I said was that if people want to slag on him for it, they are just as free to do that as he is to say what he said!

I agreed that Hardaway can say whatever he wants. I'm not sure that I agree that he's free from repercussions, in the sense that those who have hired him as a spokesperson are also free to release him from that position. But hell, what do I care if he hates gay people? Let him say that he wants to eat babies, whatever. I'm free to say he's crazy, if I want to.

And you're free to slag on me, too; but try to make it accurate. that I can appreciate.


Tom

Livinginthe past
02-17-2007, 09:51 AM
I shouldn't bother explaining yourself, Tom.

You are welcome as the next person to post your thoughts on any situation - and you shouldn't be attacked for it.

Up to this point I haven't even posted in this thread - so accuracy obviously wasn't a priority with Suitanims 'effort'.

In short, keep up the good work.

NM

Mosca
02-17-2007, 10:56 AM
Hell, it doesn't bother me, but I'm not going to let it slide either.

What I would like answered is, how is it "liberal" and "politically correct" to express disgust for Hardaway's rant? No one is questioning whether or not he had the right to say it; everyone is denouncing THE CONTENT OF HIS SPEECH.

Big difference.

Let the man say what he wants, let others say what they want, and then believe the one you think is right. But no one here has said, "Don't speak your mind." Except one person has implied it. Who, of course has the right to do that... and I have the right to counter.

Tom

klick81
02-17-2007, 11:55 AM
The hypocrisy is so thick I can barely post through it. The usual suspects, of course, show up. LITP, Mosca, etc...you know, the "Intellectuals" who have already determined exactly what is right and wrong for the rest of us to think.

Tin Hardaway was a breath of ancient and stale air. He just said things that haven't changed at all. Many, many, many people feel the way he does. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He spoke his mind. But he's wrong.

Think about that for a second. When did voicing your opinion become wrong in this Country? Never...until the liberal view of political correctness took over.

Was Hardaway wrong? No. Was he intolerant? Yes? Tasteless? Yes. Ignorant? Yes. But he is entitled to his opinion and should fear no repercussion. But the inmates have taken over the asylum. Hell, you've got a Pats fan running this board. And he has enough power to gig me for PM's I sent to him and him alone. It's not cool to selectively censor speech, and I see that kind of thing happening here.


Thought you were gone.

Suitanim
02-18-2007, 06:10 PM
Thought you were gone.

Sorry...LITP is trying hard to ban me, but he's not quite there yet. In fact, yesterday, he bent YOUR rules to interpret this:

"The hypocrisy is so thick I can barely post through it. The usual suspects, of course, show up. LITP, Mosca, etc...you know, the "Intellectuals" who have already determined exactly what is right and wrong for the rest of us to think.

Tim Hardaway was a breath of ancient and stale air. He just said things that haven't changed at all. Many, many, many people feel the way he does. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He spoke his mind. But he's wrong.

Think about that for a second. When did voicing your opinion become wrong in this Country? Never...until the liberal view of political correctness took over.

Was Hardaway wrong? No. Was he intolerant? Yes? Tasteless? Yes. Ignorant? Yes. But he is entitled to his opinion and should fear no repercussion. But the inmates have taken over the asylum. Hell, you've got a Pats fan running this board. And he has enough power to gig me for PM's I sent to him and him alone. It's not cool to selectively censor speech, and I see that kind of thing happening here."

As a personal attack. Was that really a personal attack on LITP? In fact, I'd suggest that it was much more likely that the personal attack was actually made on me. All I suggested was that personal opinions should be protected, and he bent your rules to take my views as a personal attack on him. Trust me, I could personally attack LITP if I'd like...I know him far better than most of you do, but what's the point?

All I ask is that if your mods are going to gig me, gig me for a legitimate gripe...don't split hairs and over-moderate just because I don't like the board dynamic and am vocal about it...

sumo
02-19-2007, 09:58 PM
Political discussions on this forum sometimes turn personal - just as they would in any other setting - people are passionate in their views ....I think we should make every effort to remain civil with each other - I visit this site often because I enjoy the depth of the discussions here...but more importantly, I admire the respect I get here - even from members disagreeing with my point of view..

Mosca
02-20-2007, 07:08 AM
Hey, some people like to discuss the issue, others like to discuss the people discussing the issues. Whatever, everyone will read it all and decide for themselves.


Tom

Preacher
02-20-2007, 09:59 AM
Sad.

We were having a great conversation on political correctness, and where ones ability to say something ended at another persons understanding and reflection of the comment.

Stillers#1
02-20-2007, 12:25 PM
So what exactly is wrong with what Hardaway said?

fansince'76
02-20-2007, 12:55 PM
So what exactly is wrong with what Hardaway said?

He said he "hated" a certain group of people. That's a no-no in a political-correctness-run-amock society where everybody has to be willing to join hands in a circle and sing "Kumbaya."

Stillers#1
02-20-2007, 01:10 PM
So we can't hate these days? God, I hate hippies.

Mosca
02-20-2007, 01:21 PM
He's free to say it, others are free to deride him for it. No one is passing laws against it.

It's not "right" or "wrong" in any absolute sense; but each of us is allowed to say if we agree or disagree.

Isn't anything else kind of fascist? It's OK to speak against hatred, isn't it? Or, does that qualify as "political correctness"?


Tom

ARKIESTEEL
02-20-2007, 01:25 PM
So we can't hate these days? God, I hate hippies.

skeeters bees fleas and ticks other than that you can only dislike something alot but no hateing


O you can add snakes to that list

floodcitygirl
02-20-2007, 01:33 PM
skeeters bees fleas and ticks other than that you can only dislike something alot but no hateing


O you can add snakes to that list:sofunny: How about pesky squirrels...can I hate them????

ARKIESTEEL
02-20-2007, 01:35 PM
:sofunny: How about pesky squirrels...can I hate them????

nope just dislike or strongly dislike. you cant hate on the squirrels pesky or not:dang:

Suitanim
02-21-2007, 05:09 PM
The bottom line is that he retracted his statements. If he has sponsorship money that he holds dear, and the sponsors balked, that's (for an unprincipled man) an acceptable reason. But it certainly doesn't change his views, does it? So what REAL purpose did the apology serve? Does anyone actually think that Tim Hardaway suddenly now accepts gay people?

Therein lies the rub with political correctness. You can force people to only say what you deem acceptable, but you can never change how people think and feel. Hypocrisy...

My point is that his views are his views. He shouldn't be penalized or coerced into changing his public views just because they are unpopular, and censorship is always wrong. Censorship is ALWAYS wrong. He probably should have showed more tact, but he did not. The NBA was wrong to "banish" him.

Hmmmm...some interesting parallels could be drawn here, but...I have enough infractions as it is.

Mosca
02-21-2007, 05:46 PM
Suitanim,

I agree with much of what you've written, but I still don't see how he was censored. Denounced, yes; but censored? Jeez, the sound clips were played over and over. No one said, "don't say this, don't think this." Censored, to me, means actually prevented from speaking or writing. He's free to continue to hate gays, and he's free to continue to say it. If you look on the internet, it's not hard to find people who hate gays and say it and write it; there's no censorship.

I think the reason for the strong cultural backlash (meaning the media hoopla) is mostly to "overbalance" the dialog. Hardaway got his say, certainly. The folks who actually own the microphones then got their chance and took it.

I still can't get past the thought that the flip side of what you've said is to impose that same rule on others; it amounts to outlawing arguing, at some level. Hardaway says, "I hate gay people." OK, true. He does. So now, if no one says anything, does that imply tacit acceptance and agreement? Hardaway implies, "It's OK to hate gay people." Well, I dunno. I guess it is for some people, but it's tough for some of us to agree with that. The issue gets murkier when you add in that gays are a target for aggressive behavior by some types of people (sorry for the generalization).

The issue I think we disagree on is, should Hardaway suffer economically for his stance? That's up to the people writing the checks. Maybe someone will pay him to campaign against gays. But I think that he might choose to not accept the checks... often, people feel a certain way and also know that they shouldn't. That is a possibility, too.

I had to cut it short, they're turning out the lights here at work. I'll pick it up in an hour or so.


Tom

Suitanim
02-21-2007, 06:17 PM
Suitanim,

I agree with much of what you've written, but I still don't see how he was censored. Denounced, yes; but censored? Jeez, the sound clips were played over and over. No one said, "don't say this, don't think this." Censored, to me, means actually prevented from speaking or writing. He's free to continue to hate gays, and he's free to continue to say it. If you look on the internet, it's not hard to find people who hate gays and say it and write it; there's no censorship.

I think the reason for the strong cultural backlash (meaning the media hoopla) is mostly to "overbalance" the dialog. Hardaway got his say, certainly. The folks who actually own the microphones then got their chance and took it.

I still can't get past the thought that the flip side of what you've said is to impose that same rule on others; it amounts to outlawing arguing, at some level. Hardaway says, "I hate gay people." OK, true. He does. So now, if no one says anything, does that imply tacit acceptance and agreement? Hardaway implies, "It's OK to hate gay people." Well, I dunno. I guess it is for some people, but it's tough for some of us to agree with that. The issue gets murkier when you add in that gays are a target for aggressive behavior by some types of people (sorry for the generalization).

The issue I think we disagree on is, should Hardaway suffer economically for his stance? That's up to the people writing the checks. Maybe someone will pay him to campaign against gays. But I think that he might choose to not accept the checks... often, people feel a certain way and also know that they shouldn't. That is a possibility, too.

I had to cut it short, they're turning out the lights here at work. I'll pick it up in an hour or so.


Tom

Here's my "bottom line": Tim Hardaway gave himself a bunch of rope, and he hung himself with it. More on that later...

Was he censored? ABSOLUTELY! He was censored after the fact...Hell, it's almost Orwellian. Hardaway is fighting Eurasia today, and the next day he's fighting Eastasia. The sheeples accepting this empty apology is the disturbing and most important issue here. The "army" he's aligned against is incidental...it's politically incorrect to say what he said so he'll suffer.

There's no way to effectively censor free speech in the information age, but there is a way to rewrite history, which amounts to the same. It's the whole "If a post gets posted on the board and only 3 people see it before it gets deleted did the post actually occur?" mentality.

As for the rope, Hardaway is screwed. His market value is about zero now...

Mosca
02-21-2007, 09:37 PM
Here's my "bottom line": Tim Hardaway gave himself a bunch of rope, and he hung himself with it. More on that later...

Was he censored? ABSOLUTELY! He was censored after the fact...Hell, it's almost Orwellian. Hardaway is fighting Eurasia today, and the next day he's fighting Eastasia. The sheeples accepting this empty apology is the disturbing and most important issue here. The "army" he's aligned against is incidental...it's politically incorrect to say what he said so he'll suffer.

There's no way to effectively censor free speech in the information age, but there is a way to rewrite history, which amounts to the same. It's the whole "If a post gets posted on the board and only 3 people see it before it gets deleted did the post actually occur?" mentality.

As for the rope, Hardaway is screwed. His market value is about zero now...


Politically incorrect? How about, socially unacceptable. He expressed a sentiment that is not accepted in today's society. Same thing, but the words are a lot less loaded. Older words for the same idea. I don't think the point could be made that non-hate antihomosexual speech is censored. There are plenty of outlets for Christian ministers (and others) to speak against homosexuality, and there is a large audience that approves of such speech. But honestly, I don't see many in that largely conservative audience who approve of either political correctness or hatred. So, the disapproval of hate speech might not be political correctness, but just a dislike of hatred.

Again, I don't agree that condemning what he says amounts to censorship. He's had a few years in a row of mulitmillion dollar contracts. He has enough money to get his message out there, if he feels that way. It's his choice. He could buy radio and newspaper ads. He could self-publish a book. He can donate huge sums to neo-Nazis. But the man isn't being censored. He is free to say, act, and think as he pleases. And others are free to express their agreement or disagreement. The weight of the response reflects the prevailing opinion of the society in which the words are expressed. In this world where real hatred for gays manifests itself as torture and murder, society prefers to not have people propagate gay hatred.

Hardaway has no right to the forum of the major media, just like neither you nor I have any right to any outrageous view that we might want to espouse. I have no right to a stage to talk about the Neo-Druid Dead Puppy cult. But there's nothing to keep me from saying it, and nothing keeping me from buying billboards to spread my message.

Now, he might be being CENSURED; judged and condemned. But you can't deny anyone's right to censure another, because that would amount to... censorship.

One thing that hasn't been talked about; does anyone really think Hardaway HATES gays? Like, in the same way that Nazis hate Jews? I don't. I think he doesn't like being around them, and they make him uncomfortable. But I don't think he spends any time at all thinking about the issue (or didn't, up until last week). As far as his marketability, I'm sure there are some groups that would pay him to be their spokesman. The reason he probably wouldn't take them up on it? Because he probably doesn't REALLY CARE about gays one way or the other. He probably used the word "hate" more coloquially rather than seriously, like in "I hate broccoli." I'm not inside the man's head, but I just don't see him as someone who thought a lot about it. Until now, of course.


Tom

Stillers#1
02-21-2007, 11:04 PM
Good for him.....if its fudge packers right to make me feel uncomfortable, with their lifestyle, then I say Hardaway has all the right in the world to make them feel uncomfortable with his words.

Livinginthe past
02-22-2007, 01:07 AM
Good for him.....if its fudge packers right to make me feel uncomfortable, with their lifestyle, then I say Hardaway has all the right in the world to make them feel uncomfortable with his words.

Those examples are very different - most homosexual people do not deliberately intend to make you feel uncomfortable by their actions - the offence you take is incidental.

Comments that Hardaway made, and your comments above, are a deliberate attempt to intimidate.

Did you ever consider their might be a homosexual poster on this board?

How would you feel about that?

Kinda 'ickey' I guess.

NM

Mosca
02-22-2007, 06:58 AM
Those examples are very different - most homosexual people do not deliberately intend to make you feel uncomfortable by their actions - the offence you take is incidental.

Comments that Hardaway made, and your comments above, are a deliberate attempt to intimidate.

Did you ever consider their might be a homosexual poster on this board?

How would you feel about that?

Kinda 'ickey' I guess.

NM

Not really they're not different. Hardaway DOES have every right to make homosexuals uncomfortable with his words. Hell, he's free to join the Westboro Baptist Church and scream at the funerals of servicemen. THAT freedom has been decided in court.

What he is NOT free from is 1) people taking offense at his actions, and 2) people reacting by speaking against him.

And, the media have the right to deny him a forum for his views.



Tom

83-Steelers-43
02-22-2007, 07:26 AM
By no means do I feel Hardaway doesn't have the "right" to say what he wants. That's fine. He has that "right" as an American.

The same goes with hate speech. Most people cringe at the sound of hate speech but they have the right to preach it if they so choose. I have the right to call them human trash bigots who are unhappy with their own lives so they feel the need to blame/take it out on others.

I don't recall anybody stating Hardaway doesn't have the "right" to speak his idiotic opinion.

Mosca
02-22-2007, 09:06 AM
George Takei has a particularly cogent and accurate response to Hardaway....


http://www.influks.com/post897.html



Tom

Big D
02-22-2007, 09:16 AM
I hate all people. Does that make me racist or prejudice. Should I seek help where that's concerned?

tony hipchest
02-22-2007, 09:28 AM
George Takei has a particularly cogent and accurate response to Hardaway....


http://www.influks.com/post897.html



Tom

:chuckle:

the best comment left after the clip-

"tim hardaway had a killer crossover".

its true, he did.

Stillers#1
02-22-2007, 09:37 AM
Those examples are very different - most homosexual people do not deliberately intend to make you feel uncomfortable by their actions - the offence you take is incidental.

Comments that Hardaway made, and your comments above, are a deliberate attempt to intimidate.

Did you ever consider their might be a homosexual poster on this board?

How would you feel about that?

Kinda 'ickey' I guess.

NM

My issue with this is, it isn't like he called a press conference to say how much he hates gays. He was asked to comment on the John Amechi situation during an interview, and he did. Now, most of us are flaming (no pun intended) him for being truthful with hw he feels. He didn't give the typical athelete response, he came out and said exactly how he felt, oh well, get over it. Tim Hardaway is not a bad person for not liking gay people or their lifestyle, he is not a bad person for voicing his opinion, the people that are giving him shit are the same people that fight for the rights of NAMBLA.

And if there are gay members on this board, I'm sorry for how I feel, but it's how I feel. I don't agree with your lifestyle, and you make me uncomfortable, but I guess I should change how I feel, b/c I'm not progressive, or with the times.

Big D
02-22-2007, 09:40 AM
My issue with this is, it isn't like he called a press conference to say how much he hates gays. He was asked to comment on the John Amechi situation during an interview, and he did. Now, most of us are flaming (no pun intended) him for being truthful with hw he feels. He didn't give the typical athelete response, he came out and said exactly how he felt, oh well, get over it. Tim Hardaway is not a bad person for not liking gay people or their lifestyle, he is not a bad person for voicing his opinion, the people that are giving him shit are the same people that fight for the rights of NAMBLA.

And if there are gay members on this board, I'm sorry for how I feel, but it's how I feel. I don't agree with your lifestyle, and you make me uncomfortable, but I guess I should change how I feel, b/c I'm not progressive, or with the times.

I have to agree with you. America has freedom of speech, unless you are talking about sexual orientation, racism or in some cases even religon. I'm not saying I support what you are saying stillers or support what hardaway said. But I think you should be able to express your opinion. And you are very correct this wasnt a press conference

Livinginthe past
02-22-2007, 09:57 AM
Not really they're not different. Hardaway DOES have every right to make homosexuals uncomfortable with his words. Hell, he's free to join the Westboro Baptist Church and scream at the funerals of servicemen. THAT freedom has been decided in court.

What he is NOT free from is 1) people taking offense at his actions, and 2) people reacting by speaking against him.

And, the media have the right to deny him a forum for his views.



Tom

100% agreed.

I happened to agree strongly with your previous post - where you state that he should be free to make these statements and we should be free to call him on it.

I happen to think that its better for people to air their ignorance, rather than keep it bottled up inside - humans are guilty of prejudice - every single last one of us.

I also agree that he doesn't 'hate' gays - just that they make him feel so uncomfortable (for whatever reason) that it manifests in violent verbal outbursts.

My previous post was just stating that merely 'being gay' and 'stating that you hate gays' aren't in the same ball park as far as incitement goes.

NM

Mosca
02-22-2007, 10:33 AM
America has freedom of speech, unless you are talking about sexual orientation, racism or in some cases even religon... I think you should be able to express your opinion.


America has freedom of speech. And in America you have the freedom to criticize others' speech.

What we don't have is the right to keep anyone from speaking, and no one has done that. Heck, the debates over sexual orientation, religion, and racism are proof of free speech!

Hardaway might not have meant it when he said he hates gays... but Pastor Fred Phelps (http://www.godhatesfags.com/) does. And Pastor Phelps has complete freedom to spread his message to anyone willing to hear it, and also to those who don't, by demonstrating at servicemens' funerals.

People are free to disagree with each other. Disagreeing and criticizing aren't censoring, and aren't an abrogation of freedom of speech.

fansince'76
02-22-2007, 10:58 AM
America has freedom of speech.

To a certain extent - the reality is "freedom of speech - just watch what you say."

Mosca
02-22-2007, 11:11 AM
To a certain extent - the reality is "freedom of speech - just watch what you say."

Only if you don't like getting criticized by those who disagree with you.

If freedom of speech means to you that once you say something you are free from judgment, well I don't know what to tell you. Is everything that is controversial supposed to be answered with, "Thank you for sharing"? Your rights are the same as those of the people who disagree with you. Both have a right to speak.


Tom

fansince'76
02-22-2007, 11:15 AM
Only if you don't like getting criticized by those who disagree with you.

Or if you like losing your job if your statements piss off the wrong people above you (see Ward Churchill, Rush Limbaugh when he was at ESPN, etc.).

Mosca
02-22-2007, 11:21 AM
Or if you like losing your job if your statements piss off the wrong people above you (see Ward Churchill, Rush Limbaugh when he was at ESPN, etc.).

Shrug. The white bread syndrome. Rush isn't hurting for people to pay him to talk. But a qualification for being a spokesperson is being non-controversial. What you're saying is similar to saying, "Good luck holding a job as an NBA player if you're an old fat guy." Polarizing personalities, or as you said, people who piss other people off, make poor spokesmen. The NBA owes no one a career, the media owes no one a stage. They make the decisions based on how the dollars fly.



Tom

fansince'76
02-22-2007, 11:37 AM
Shrug. The white bread syndrome. Rush isn't hurting for people to pay him to talk. But a qualification for being a spokesperson is being non-controversial. What you're saying is similar to saying, "Good luck holding a job as an NBA player if you're an old fat guy." Polarizing personalities, or as you said, people who piss other people off, make poor spokesmen. The NBA owes no one a career, the media owes no one a stage. They make the decisions based on how the dollars fly.



Tom

Yeah, I can agree with that - I think the rub is in the fact that "freedom of speech" is a democratic principle, while the American workplace in general is anything but democratic.

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-22-2007, 12:09 PM
America has freedom of speech. And in America you have the freedom to criticize others' speech.

What we don't have is the right to keep anyone from speaking, and no one has done that. Heck, the debates over sexual orientation, religion, and racism are proof of free speech!

Hardaway might not have meant it when he said he hates gays... but Pastor Fred Phelps (http://www.godhatesfags.com/) does. And Pastor Phelps has complete freedom to spread his message to anyone willing to hear it, and also to those who don't, by demonstrating at servicemens' funerals.

People are free to disagree with each other. Disagreeing and criticizing aren't censoring, and aren't an abrogation of freedom of speech.

On May 24, 2006, the United States House and Senate passed the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act, which President Bush signed five days later. The act bans protests within 300 feet of national cemeteries from 60 minutes before a funeral to 60 minutes after it. Violators face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison.

The American Civil Liberties Union (bottom feeding pieces of human refuge) filed a lawsuit in Missouri on behalf of Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church to overturn the ban on the picketing of soldier's funerals.

To counter the Phelps' protests at funerals of soldiers, a group of Veteran motorcycle riders has formed the Patriot Guard Riders to provide a nonviolent, volunteer buffer between the protesters and mourners.

Mosca
02-22-2007, 01:22 PM
On May 24, 2006, the United States House and Senate passed the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act, which President Bush signed five days later. The act bans protests within 300 feet of national cemeteries from 60 minutes before a funeral to 60 minutes after it. Violators face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison.

The American Civil Liberties Union (bottom feeding pieces of human refuge) filed a lawsuit in Missouri on behalf of Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church to overturn the ban on the picketing of soldier's funerals.

To counter the Phelps' protests at funerals of soldiers, a group of Veteran motorcycle riders has formed the Patriot Guard Riders to provide a nonviolent, volunteer buffer between the protesters and mourners.


Thanks for the update, LLT. I thought that there were local ordinances, I didn't know there was a federal law passed.


Tom

Suitanim
02-23-2007, 07:35 PM
I'm sticking with my simple argument: Hardaway is wrong, but he's allowed to say what he wants, and it was wrong for the NBA to "banish" him. He apologized for financial reasons.

I'm sick to death with all the attempts to homogenize and assimilate everyone into some kind of happy collective, and even more disturbed to see the trickle-down. People aren't nice to each other by nature, and forcing them to act as though they are is wrong...

Preacher
02-23-2007, 11:20 PM
I'm sticking with my simple argument: Hardaway is wrong, but he's allowed to say what he wants, and it was wrong for the NBA to "banish" him. He apologized for financial reasons.

I'm sick to death with all the attempts to homogenize and assimilate everyone into some kind of happy collective, and even more disturbed to see the trickle-down. People aren't nice to each other by nature, and forcing them to act as though they are is wrong...

Gotta say I agree with you, except that the NBA did have a right to banish him. In the same way I had a right not to buy a Dixie chick album after what they said about the President (I never bought one before either!).

IESteel
02-24-2007, 07:33 PM
If I remember the interview correctly, this was the last question asked. He was asked to comment on Amaechi's book and what he would have done if there was a gay man on his team. Personally, the first thought that went through my mind was finally, someone comes out in the media and says what they feel and dosn't care about hurting someones feelings. This country has gotten so politically correct, you can never really say your true feelings for fear of upsetting someone. Its like the Snickers super bowl commercial. I thought it was one of the funniest things playing but they had to take it off the air because it offended GLADD. I was ticked off that he actually apologized. Showas you how much political power groups like GLADD has.

Mosca
02-25-2007, 10:49 AM
I'm sticking with my simple argument: Hardaway is wrong, but he's allowed to say what he wants, and it was wrong for the NBA to "banish" him. He apologized for financial reasons.

I'm sick to death with all the attempts to homogenize and assimilate everyone into some kind of happy collective, and even more disturbed to see the trickle-down. People aren't nice to each other by nature, and forcing them to act as though they are is wrong...


I think I understand what you mean now. The only thing I can say is, that would be a lot to ask from the NBA and media. The concept of people being rewarded for integrity is somewhat foreign in a world where appearances are all-important.


Tom

Suitanim
02-26-2007, 06:07 PM
I think I understand what you mean now. The only thing I can say is, that would be a lot to ask from the NBA and media. The concept of people being rewarded for integrity is somewhat foreign in a world where appearances are all-important.


Tom
He shouldn't be rewarded. He should be heavily fined and suspended for a few games. I consider this akin to if I told some off-color jokes at work and some busybody who overheard got upset and pitched a bitch. The proper response would maybe be a stern talking to from the boss to be more careful about what I say and where, and also a brief meeting with the busybody to tell her/him to lighten up a bit.

Instead, in today's hypersensitive World I'd be fired, my boss would be reassigned to the Arctic watch station office, the company would be sued for 10 million (and would lose) and the busybody would get promoted over what is basically nothing.