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tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 01:12 PM
with an overhaul of our coaching staff, its obvious there is an eye towards the future, moreso than an eye towards the now. with this being the case, roster spots for players we can plug in or develop for the future is just about as important as cap space.

last year we saw plenty of wasted draft picks. was it because they were crappy players or because they may have been good but there was no room for them on the roster?

tomlin has said he believes in starters playing special teams. of course after our special teams debaucle in the 01 afcc game cowher said we would see more of this too. not only was our special teams ineffective last year, it was rather old

gardocki
morey
iwouma
(does any one see iwouma or morey as starter potential?)

kirschke
logan
(will they ever see any starting time?)

phillip
(is he gonna play center if okolbi gets hurt, or is it more effective to slide simmons over and use his back up?)

if we draft a cb, rb, or wr, either it will be a wasted pick or some of these players will have to go (consider- lee mays and players like that have been pretty much useless)

colclough
madison
haynes
davenport
wilson
washington
reid

i dont think the steelers problem has been evaluating talent. i think a problem has been retaining players who "know our [sometimes too complex] system" even though they may not have been the best talent.

with the streamlining of our "system" this may give us flexibility we have not seen. its possible any if not many of the names i mentioned could be gone.

so who is the dead weight that will never contribute and needs to go?

LambertLunatic
02-24-2007, 03:12 PM
colclough... stays as a cheap 4th corner. Also stays OFF special teams.

madison... color him gone

haynes... The price is right, so stays unless a rookie shows promise in camp.

davenport... Assuming we draft a replacement, he's gone unless he's willing to sign for less $ than Haynes.

wilson... Not as bad as some here seem to think. Pretty good for a 4th receiver. But he's paid more than a 4th receiver, so he's going bye bye.

washington... Keeper, as 3rd receiver.

reid... Assuming his injury is 100% healed, he's back. You can't call him a wasted draft pick after 1 injury filled year.

Stillers43
02-24-2007, 04:34 PM
Keep One: Haynes or Davenport (personally I would keep ND)
Keep: Washington, Reid or Morey, Colcough or Iwouma, and Philip

Everyone else mentioned: SEE YA!

SteelCzar76
02-24-2007, 04:54 PM
To me this is a 'no brainer',.......Coclough, Wilson, Madison are all dead weight and should be gone without question.
And though he's solid on special teams,....it may be time to make roster space by realeasing Logan.
Nate Washington (or even Reid) are also highly expendable if we are able to land a Player like maybe Jordan Kent (Oregon) or Jarrett Hicks (Texas tech) on the second day of the draft.

Are far as the others mentioned the only one i would give any serious consideration in regards to remaining a Steeler would be Verron.

SteelersTilIDie
02-24-2007, 07:23 PM
all ricardo colclough does is fumble punts...morey is a good special teamer...nate washington contributes...DESHEA TOWNSEND IS THE DEAD WEIGHT

SteelCzar76
02-24-2007, 07:52 PM
all ricardo colclough does is fumble punts...morey is a good special teamer...nate washington contributes...DESHEA TOWNSEND IS THE DEAD WEIGHT


I'd say Dshea is "dead weight" or what i'd call a liabilty only if he starts. (He could still prove of some value in special teams coverage and Dime packages)
If you think about it Morey (though i like him) would be more of a waste of roster space. In light of the fact that all he really brings to the table is his special teams ability.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 07:59 PM
who is a better special teamer? morey or polamalu. if tomlin decides to start polamalu on ST instead of morey are we gonna waste the vet minimum salary and a roster spot to have morey sit on the bench as a #6 wr?

questions like this is the point of this thread. this is where we got to take our fan hats off and put on our coaching caps.

otherwise we can just sit back and wave these in every off season post: :tt02:

fansince'76
02-24-2007, 08:01 PM
who is a better special teamer? morey or polamalu. if tomlin decides to start polamalu on ST instead of morey are we gonna waste the vet minimum salary and a roster spot to have morey sit on the bench as a #6 wr?

Also, do we really want one of our best players on the suicide squad?

SteelCzar76
02-24-2007, 08:06 PM
who is a better special teamer? morey or polamalu. if tomlin decides to start polamalu on ST instead of morey are we gonna waste the vet minimum salary and a roster spot to have morey sit on the bench as a #6 wr?

questions like this is the point of this thread. this is where we got to take our fan hats off and put on our coaching caps.

otherwise we can just sit back and wave these in every off season post: :tt02:



Exactly. Though it could be viewed as 'risky' to play starters on special teams. It could also be regarded as very 'efficient'. I think Rod Woodson did very well in such a capacity in his prime here.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 08:10 PM
Also, do we really want one of our best players on the suicide squad?this is what tomlin has to figure out. look how great the bears STs were. look at some of the great returns vasher and hester had and you see urlacher out there laying out people with killer blocks.

so do we want to have great players out there with an excellent special teams? or do we want to waste roster spots on specialists, and cut players we could eventually develop into starters, so we can watch our 2nd stringers and reserves stink it up on ST's?

when the patriots ST's beat the steelers ST's for the right to go to the sb in 01, it was their starting #1 wr who had the greatest impact.

fansince'76
02-24-2007, 08:16 PM
this is what tomlin has to figure out. look how great the bears STs were. look at some of the great returns vasher and hester had and you see urlacher out there laying out people with killer blocks.

so do we want to have great players out there with an excellent special teams? or do we want to waste roster spots on specialists, and cut players we could eventually develop into starters, so we can watch our 2nd stringers and reserves stink it up on ST's?

when the patriots ST's beat the steelers ST's for the right to go to the sb in 01, it was their starting #1 wr who had the greatest impact.

Great points, Tony. I still get a little squeamish about putting a bona fide star player (as opposed to starter) out there on STs, especially after the way the injury bug bit us this past season. I'm glad I'm not an HC.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 08:26 PM
Great points, Tony. I still get a little squeamish about putting a bona fide star player (as opposed to starter) out there on STs, especially after the way the injury bug bit us this past season. I'm glad I'm not an HC.
rod woodson is a perfect example. im not for certain, but i still think he is the only person to make the pro bowl at 3-4 different positions: pr/kr, and cb with the steelers and s with the ravens or raiders.

the plus of using a starter on st's is that you have to spell them on offense or defense for a few plays, which in turn gives there back ups/potential replacements game action and development.

fansince'76
02-24-2007, 08:31 PM
rod woodson is a perfect example. im not for certain, but i still think he is the only person to make the pro bowl at 3-4 different positions: pr/kr, and cb with the steelers and s with the ravens or raiders.

the plus of using a starter on st's is that you have to spell them on offense or defense for a few plays, which in turn gives there back ups/potential replacements game action and development.

More good points. However, I am worried about Tomlin using this strategy, at least at the start of his tenure - if Taz went down with a torn ACL in the 1st game of next year as a result of a ST play, I can imagine alot of the faithful immediately second-guessing Tomlin for it.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 08:43 PM
More good points. However, I am worried about Tomlin using this strategy, at least at the start of his tenure - if Taz went down with a torn ACL in the 1st game of next year as a result of a ST play, I can imagine alot of the faithful immediately second-guessing Tomlin for it.this is true. then again i remember rod woodson going out with a torn acl in the 1st game of the season trying to tackle barry sanders while playing CB. dont remember him with any significant injuries playing ST. football is football and if youre gonna get hurt youre gonna get hurt, no matter what minute of the 60 you are playing.

im not necessarily endorsing polamalu specifically, but to have our ST made up of nothing but secondary guys wastes roster spots we desperately need to develop players for our future and has left our ST's a bit stagnant. taking just keisel off of them to start in place of kimo seemed to hurt.

i appreciate the conversation. its a relevant topic.

fansince'76
02-24-2007, 08:48 PM
this is true. then again i remember rod woodson going out with a torn acl in the 1st game of the season trying to tackle barry sanders while playing CB. dont remember him with any significant injuries playing ST. football is football and if youre gonna get hurt youre gonna get hurt, no matter what minute of the 60 you are playing.

Very true. Your points about putting starters on STs are well founded. I just think that right now there are alot of fans (not to mention media) waiting to pounce on Tomlin for whatever reason. A key starter losing significant playing time due to a ST injury is just the kind of ammo they'll be looking for.

ChronoCross
02-24-2007, 08:59 PM
who ever we cut is the dead weight.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 09:12 PM
Very true. Your points about putting starters on STs are well founded. I just think that right now there are alot of fans (not to mention media) waiting to pounce on Tomlin for whatever reason. A key starter losing significant playing time due to a ST injury is just the kind of ammo they'll be looking for.tomlins 1st potential strike could be firing spencer and bringing in that guy from the rams.

now if that guy from the rams can turn around our current special teams, then by all means, keep the situational players. (it will cost a little more while we are cap strapped and prevent us from keeping about 4-5 of our draft picks though)

i hope tomlin isnt worried about the fans or media getting on him. after all, until he won a SB, the fans and media were all over cowhers ass. i think tomlin can handle it, and his main focus will be what the players and rooneys think.

with the players we currently have and want to keep, were not gonna have much money for free agents in the near future. so we need to look at building a future through the draft. the next 2 drafts are gonna be very important and i think its important that we get atleast 7-8 future starters from the 2 drafts combined.

tony hipchest
02-24-2007, 09:14 PM
who ever we cut is the dead weight.
... and whoever loses, doesnt win.

fansince'76
02-24-2007, 09:18 PM
tomlins 1st potential strike could be firing spencer and bringing in that guy from the rams.

now if that guy from the rams can turn around our current special teams, then by all means, keep the situational players. (it will cost a little more while we are cap strapped and prevent us from keeping about 4-5 of our draft picks though)

i hope tomlin isnt worried about the fans or media getting on him. after all, until he won a SB, the fans and media were all over cowhers ass. i think tomlin can handle it, and his main focus will be what the players and rooneys think.

with the players we currently have and want to keep, were not gonna have much money for free agents in the near future. so we need to look at building a future through the draft. the next 2 drafts are gonna be very important and i think its important that we get atleast 7-8 future starters from the 2 drafts combined.

I agree fully about the necessity for good drafts. Our STs haven't exactly been a strong suit for awhile now, and I see firing Spencer and hiring the Rams' ST guy as a wash at this point. I also hope that Tomlin isn't too worried about possible criticisms from the media and fans - if he is, he won't be around long.

aussiesteelers
02-25-2007, 06:59 AM
Tomlin should not even care what the media thinks of him. His job is to win matches now and in the future. As for ST, we should put some starters but not our superstars like polamalu.

polamalufan43
02-25-2007, 09:18 AM
I think Morey is staying. he had a few good runs last season that might have shown something considering not many people knew he could run like that. Wilson and Washingtion will probably stay because even though Wilson had a bad year, all in all he is pretty good, and Washington because he had an excellent year compared to some of his teammates. Starks...well...as much as I would like him to stay, I think he's pretty much gone, if not in the offseason then during camp. That is unless he shows something that wows the staff out of there shorts.
~Polamalufan43:tt02:

LambertLunatic
02-25-2007, 11:17 AM
the next 2 drafts are gonna be very important and i think its important that we get atleast 7-8 future starters from the 2 drafts combined.

Every draft is very important, but I think the 2009 draft is the one we have to do the best in. We stand to lose a LOT of players to free agency after this season. This means we'll be getting a lot of comp picks in '09.

steeler614
02-25-2007, 01:43 PM
not too much dead weight, players like Wilson and Townsend are not good starters but make decent backups. Washington is a young guy he will improve. Morey and Chidi are 2 of the best on special teams, and believe me, you want good special teams. Haynes is a good backup. same with Davenport, and you need at least 2 backups for RB possibly the most injury prone position. Gardocki needs to go, Kirshke is old and gets injured too much, Chad Brown will probably have to retire, and Coke will have to go if he doesn't recover from the neck injury.

drew102e
02-26-2007, 07:09 PM
id love to see starters on STs...until the first guy gets hurt

Suitanim
02-26-2007, 07:15 PM
kirschke
logan
(will they ever see any starting time?)

phillip

colclough
madison
haynes
davenport
wilson
washington
reid

so who is the dead weight that will never contribute and needs to go?

Kirschke- Value player. He can play any position in either a 3-4 or 4-3, and he doesn't cost a fortune. No brainer, he stays.

Mike Logan- One of those guys you keep while seasoning a rook (Anthony Smith) and let go when that job is done. I'd say he's expendable.

Marvin Phillip? From everything I've read the Steelers are VERY high on this kid...maybe enough so that C isn't a draft concern. They groomed Okobi for years, and now he gets his chance to shine. I expect one of these two guys will impress. Maybe look for the Steelers to sign an FA C.

Coke? C'mon! Coke isn't going anywhere. By all reports, Coke was playing better CB then Ike (who will return to form in '07, by the way). He needs reps and confidence, but when he gets them he'll be fine.

Verron Haynes is interesting...all he's done is just exactly whatever the Steelers have always asked. I think he should go play for another team (outside the AFC North) who have more room for him. I think he's a potential 1,000 yards rusher on the right team.

Davenport- I'd keep him w/ a modest raise if possible. But I have a feeling someone else will overpay...I almost get the feeling that Cowher underutilized him to protect against the speculators. He flashed a TON of potential.

Wilson...too inconsistent. expendable.

Reid/Washington are dependent upon each others performances. If Reid does what he's capable of, Nate's gone.

tony hipchest
02-26-2007, 08:08 PM
Kirschke- Value player. He can play any position in either a 3-4 or 4-3, and he doesn't cost a fortune. No brainer, he stays.

Mike Logan- One of those guys you keep while seasoning a rook (Anthony Smith) and let go when that job is done. I'd say he's expendable.

Marvin Phillip? From everything I've read the Steelers are VERY high on this kid...maybe enough so that C isn't a draft concern. They groomed Okobi for years, and now he gets his chance to shine. I expect one of these two guys will impress. Maybe look for the Steelers to sign an FA C.

Coke? C'mon! Coke isn't going anywhere. By all reports, Coke was playing better CB then Ike (who will return to form in '07, by the way). He needs reps and confidence, but when he gets them he'll be fine.

Verron Haynes is interesting...all he's done is just exactly whatever the Steelers have always asked. I think he should go play for another team (outside the AFC North) who have more room for him. I think he's a potential 1,000 yards rusher on the right team.

Davenport- I'd keep him w/ a modest raise if possible. But I have a feeling someone else will overpay...I almost get the feeling that Cowher underutilized him to protect against the speculators. He flashed a TON of potential.

Wilson...too inconsistent. expendable.

Reid/Washington are dependent upon each others performances. If Reid does what he's capable of, Nate's gone.agree with all these takes. i'd have to say haynes is the best team mate and the one id hate to see go the most but you dont get paid for being a "good guy".

we can assume the departure of duce and hartings will open up spots for out #1 and 2nd round pick. that leaves 6-7 picks plus any free agent we may acquire who needs a spot on the 53 man roster opened up for them. as good a special teamer morey is, his job may be negated with more starters playing on ST. morey and iwouma = gone. so that leaves about 5 slots for rookies/f.a.'s.

2-3 rookies minimum wont make the team. so we still have 2-4 slots to open if we want 6 rookies/f.a.'s to make the team. im thinking logan is gone because of his vet minimum tag, unless carter gets a better deal (then it will be him). haynes, najeh, and wilson, washington are probably sweating it if their position is drafted.

kirschke is cheap, but tomlin could find a 5-6th rounder he'd like to develop who would be about $400,000 cheaper.

i would say high $$$ players like porter and someone like st. pierre could be the wild card in all of this.

needless to say, tomlin has some tough choices and is gonna piss alot of fans if he cust someone as insignificant as iwouma/morey, let alone porter. but we cant count on him keeping cowhers players around for the fans sake, when you know hes got an eye to the future and developing his own guys.

there will be some suprises, cause i think atleast 5-6 rookies will make this team plus a free agent... and theres just not enough room to keep everyone weve become accustomed to.

Suitanim
02-26-2007, 08:11 PM
Depends...If Tomlin has a Rooney guarantee, he may be allowed to dismantle the team and rebuild in his own image. I doubt it, but there is only one team in the NFL that it even COULD happen on, and we're it.

tony hipchest
02-26-2007, 08:17 PM
Depends...If Tomlin has a Rooney guarantee, he may be allowed to dismantle the team and rebuild in his own image. I doubt it, but there is only one team in the NFL that it even COULD happen on, and we're it.one thing that bugged me about last years draft is it seemed many positions were already cemented and the rookies drafted werent given much of a shot in hell. i wouldve much rather seen most those 2nd day picks (agreed phillip seems like a keeper) traded up to grab a utility player such as michael robinson, who can play multiple positions and eat the roster spots of 3 players like randle el, st pierre, and duce/humes.

drew102e
02-26-2007, 08:34 PM
dont think there is a randle el replacement out there this year

tony hipchest
02-26-2007, 08:51 PM
dont think there is a randle el replacement out there this yearas far as roster spots go... w. reid replaced him last year.

the point is robinson was a player that couldve replaced the spot for pierre, el, and bettis, and saved us from drafting jacobs and humes (possibly reid)

drew102e
02-26-2007, 09:19 PM
as far as roster spots go... w. reid replaced him last year.

the point is robinson was a player that couldve replaced the spot for pierre, el, and bettis, and saved us from drafting jacobs and humes (possibly reid)

so if tomlin is serious about starters on STs, that might be the end of Morey and Chidi right?

i love em both on STs,

whay cant the steelers get xtra cap room/roster spots for all their super bowls...that seems fair to me

Suitanim
02-27-2007, 05:27 PM
as far as roster spots go... w. reid replaced him last year.

the point is robinson was a player that couldve replaced the spot for pierre, el, and bettis, and saved us from drafting jacobs and humes (possibly reid)

Drafting a RB and QB late is the Steeler way...and expect them to do it again.

As for ARE, there are guys in every draft who can play several positions, but bear in mind that he didn't exactly tear it up when he jumped ship to the Skins. I think the Steelers are excellent at assessing talent like that...Hell, remember that Hines Ward himself was kind of a slash guy coming out of Georgia. Plus, since the Steelers dump a lot of FA's who don't fit, they usually end up with a few supplemental draft spots every year. Why not roll the dice a bit on players who have a lot of upside? It's high risk/high reward.

tony hipchest
02-27-2007, 06:32 PM
Drafting a RB and QB late is the Steeler way...and expect them to do it again.

As for ARE, there are guys in every draft who can play several positions, but bear in mind that he didn't exactly tear it up when he jumped ship to the Skins. I think the Steelers are excellent at assessing talent like that...Hell, remember that Hines Ward himself was kind of a slash guy coming out of Georgia. Plus, since the Steelers dump a lot of FA's who don't fit, they usually end up with a few supplemental draft spots every year. Why not roll the dice a bit on players who have a lot of upside? It's high risk/high reward.one of the benefits of always finding a gem lb in the later rounds is that we were able to gamble a little earlier on these huge upside players like kordell (2nd), ar.el (2nd) and hines (3rd) and it always wind up being a wash.

now it seems to be opposite. the lb's we used to find in the 4-5th are now going in the 1st-2nd. and last year i think there were 4 randle el prospects taken in the 4th - 7th. the bungles sure struck gold with theirs (arrested player #7 r. mcniel?)

i havent heart too much about these project players too much this year. possibly troy smith but he will accept it about as well as kordell did and will almost assuredly wind up being a qb, exclusively.

tony hipchest
02-28-2007, 10:33 AM
heres a player the steelers like to look at (coutesy of kirwan):

http://nfl.com/combine/story/10025987Steve Smith (USC), Anthony Gonzalez (Ohio State), Craig Davis (LSU) and Syvelle Newton (South Carolina) have done enough to earn a hard look.

Newton is one of the most interesting guys in this draft. Here's a guy who started three games at free safety, seven games at quarterback and two games at wide receiver. He caught 61 balls in his college career and he also threw five touchdown passes in a game this past season.

All four of these players have played in the shadow of a star during their college careers, and that's a trait that will make pro football a similar situation (in the pros, there's always someone better). They might just have that chip on their shoulder to make them the next Laveranues Coles.


to me, someone like this probably has a ton more upside than iwouma or morey and might be a hell of a special teamer too.

SteelShooter
02-28-2007, 01:04 PM
Exactly. Though it could be viewed as 'risky' to play starters on special teams. It could also be regarded as very 'efficient'. I think Rod Woodson did very well in such a capacity in his prime here.

:stupid: .................................................. .................................................. ............ :iagree:

SteelCzar76
02-28-2007, 05:23 PM
:stupid: .................................................. .................................................. ............ :iagree:




???

Suitanim
02-28-2007, 06:31 PM
Speaking of ARE-type guys, think Reggie Ball from GT. He's a WR that converted to QB in college and tossed the ball around to Calvin Johnson. He's 5'11", 195 and can run, pass and catch the ball. And his stock dropped because of some combine things. It would not shock me in the slightest if the Steelers selected him on the second day...

SteelCzar76
02-28-2007, 07:05 PM
Speaking of ARE-type guys, think Reggie Ball from GT. He's a WR that converted to QB in college and tossed the ball around to Calvin Johnson. He's 5'11", 195 and can run, pass and catch the ball. And his stock dropped because of some combine things. It would not shock me in the slightest if the Steelers selected him on the second day...



I don't know Suit. Reggie has decent quickness but he was undersized with terrible accuracy and recognition skills as a QB. And i think he may have blown a shot to get a look at receiver by running a 4.80 at the combine.

drew102e
02-28-2007, 09:42 PM
dont think you can chase after an ARE-type, they just fall from heaven

Suitanim
03-03-2007, 08:15 PM
I don't know Suit. Reggie has decent quickness but he was undersized with terrible accuracy and recognition skills as a QB. And i think he may have blown a shot to get a look at receiver by running a 4.80 at the combine.

The Steelers, thank God, never get hung up on the numbers. If a guy plays faster than his competition, that's more important than what his combine numbers are, and his character and teamwork are the most important attributes of all...I don't think Jerry Rice was ever much faster than a 4.7. Hell, Terrell Owens and Anquan Boldin's sucked at the combine, too.

Ball would never be asked to do more than run direct snaps and throw a misdirection pass as a QB.