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Elvis
03-11-2007, 07:14 PM
As most of you know, I have been in the middle of an Abortion issue with this forrum. Now, I know that everyone has their own opinions and I have mine. This is just my way of gettin' this out and lettin' my feelings be known and the Mods have said that this is the place to do it. Now, I hope that I dont offend anyone with my thoughts and opinions but I want to express them to ya'll. My Only Rules to this thread please would to be Just To Reply One Time Per Person, including myself.
I am a New father of a beautiful little girl.. she is now a little over 8 mos. old and I love her more than life its self. I Could Not Imagine Life Without Her Little Smile to Send Me Off to Work every morning. She is my Pride N Joy. It just breaks my heart to think that there is people out here killing little children before they even have a chance. And most of the time it is just because they think that they are Not ready for children, so why then do they take chances having sex knowing that there is or could be consiquinces ? I know that my heart is sooooooo soft toward children that I just cant control my feelings sometimes with them. They are such a Blessing From God to us here on earth and I praise him every day and thank him daily for her and my loving family.
Please... keep it clean and you dont have to be nasty to make your opinions known. I hope that the Mods will understand this thread and I hope that I dont or havent offended anyone. JUST REMEMBER...ONE THREAD OPPORTUNITY FOR EACH PERSON PLEASE.... I totally understand that everyone is Not gonna agree with each other so have fun and Please keep it Clean...
David

SteelCityMan786
03-11-2007, 07:27 PM
I understand man, I'm not a fan of abortion either.

tony hipchest
03-11-2007, 07:51 PM
i have a beautiful girl myself. however it wasnt me who carried her to term or delivered her. if a woman choses to abort a child, i will not pass judgement because that is her choice and i know she will meet her maker one day and have to answer to Him. according to Jesus, one who repents their sins will be forgiven.

i used to kill birds with my BB gun for fun. for that i hope im not eternaly damned.

PisnNapalm
03-11-2007, 07:53 PM
If you do away with abortion be prepared to read more headlines like these...

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=abandoned+baby&btnG=Search+News

PisnNapalm
03-11-2007, 07:56 PM
bugger me... Time to go watch some tv and be done with this crap. We've all got sob stories about our families. Our children are the most precious things in our hearts. Bottom line is that's not always the case and people do insane cruel things to kids/babies.

I'd rather see a fetus aborted than a baby chucked away like garbage.

fansince'76
03-11-2007, 07:57 PM
I am pro-choice personally, mainly for the reason that Tony pointed out - I have a problem with the government telling a woman what she can and can't do as far as her body is concerned. I would also be curious to know how the originator of this thread feels about cases where women become pregnant as a result of being raped? Should the woman be required by law to carry the child to term?

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-11-2007, 08:02 PM
I have mixed feeling on abortion.......I do not believe in it.....I feel that if two people are mature enough to have sex then they should be mature enough to do what is necessary to provide the best possible life for the child......
On the other hand.......I do not believe the government should interfer or have control over the situation......This is a free country.....And noone should tell you what to do with your body......
I think it is ashame that the issue of abortion is brought up in so many political talks because it is only used as a ploy to get people to vote one way or another....
I think that abortion and christian rights groups should stay out of politics...
With that said........I am against abortions, but, it should be left to opinions and not put into laws

Go Steelers

Mosca
03-11-2007, 08:52 PM
I'm pro choice, but abortion is not for me personally. And I don't have any problems with people being anti-abortion. But they can only say what is right for them, not what is right for others.

So, I'm fine with you being anti-abortion. I'm not fine with that being extended to the lives of others who may not agree with you. There aren't enough anti-abortion people willing to care for the unwanted unborn for them to impose their views on others.

And then the issue gets clouded with anti-abortionists whose real agenda is controlling the sex lives of other people, who use the unborn issue and access to birth control in the form of morning after pills as a means to enforce their own sexual standards on the rest of the populace. Not everyone takes an anti-abortion stance because of their deep and abiding love of all children; there are quite a number of anti-abortionists who would be more than happy to enforce their own sexual standards on the rest of the populace, in the same way that the Muslims do in their countries. We would do well to recognize the difference between those who care out of love, and those who care out of a desire for control.

Thanks for giving me the chance to express these thoughts without fear of starting an argument.


Tom

Stlrs4Life
03-11-2007, 09:04 PM
I'm pro choice, but abortion is not for me personally. And I don't have any problems with people being anti-abortion. But they can only say what is right for them, not what is right for others.

So, I'm fine with you being anti-abortion. I'm not fine with that being extended to the lives of others who may not agree with you. There aren't enough anti-abortion people willing to care for the unwanted unborn for them to impose their views on others.

And then the issue gets clouded with anti-abortionists whose real agenda is controlling the sex lives of other people, who use the unborn issue and access to birth control in the form of morning after pills as a means to enforce their own sexual standards on the rest of the populace. Not everyone takes an anti-abortion stance because of their deep and abiding love of all children; there are quite a number of anti-abortionists who would be more than happy to enforce their own sexual standards on the rest of the populace, in the same way that the Muslims do in their countries. We would do well to recognize the difference between those who care out of love, and those who care out of a desire for control.

Thanks for giving me the chance to express these thoughts without fear of starting an argument.


Tom


I'm in line with Mosca.

HometownGal
03-11-2007, 10:44 PM
I have mixed feeling on abortion.......I do not believe in it.....I feel that if two people are mature enough to have sex then they should be mature enough to do what is necessary to provide the best possible life for the child......
On the other hand.......I do not believe the government should interfer or have control over the situation......This is a free country.....And noone should tell you what to do with your body......


I am 100% Pro Life and very proud of it. To look at my beautiful 7 year old grandson every day reminds me why I take the stance that I do on abortion.

No one should tell anyone what to do with their bodies, but on the other side of the coin, with all of the birth control methods available today to both sexes that weren't available when I was growing up - to have unprotected sex is as good as saying "we want to conceive", imho. There is no excuse for unprotected sex in this day and age.

In the case of a rape victim, my feelings on that are that the child conceived is not at fault for what happened any more than the victim is. I can only speak for myself here by saying that if I was raped and became pregnant, I would carry that innocent life to term and either raise the child myself or place that precious little life for adoption. There are thousands of good people out there who can't conceive who would give their eye tooth for the opportunity to love a child and raise it as their own. :thumbsup:

Stainless Steel
03-12-2007, 06:45 AM
I am pro life. I experienced the same thing that wedo did when my middle son was born. I couldn't imagine someone choosing to end a life. There is no more basic right that the "right to life". Who is to claim the right to decide what life is not worth living? Not me!

stlrtruck
03-12-2007, 08:12 AM
I'm PRO LIFE. I have 3 beautiful children and can not fathom how different my life would be without them. My youngest is 21 months and yes, she is daddy's princess. How someone could toss life aside just because they chose to have sex is behind me. I've tried to instill in my oldest daughter that if she chooses to go out and have sex, she is saying that she is ready to take care of a child. Birth Control or no Birth Control, you never know what could happen.

However, I haven't always been perfect and my past has some horrible choices as well as horrendous consequences. Oh, I could go on about how I wasn't saved then and Jesus wasn't active in my life but the bottom line is that in this country individuals have the freedom of choice and it is the woman's body. I am no one to judge what another person decides to do. I'm not going to go out and protest at an abortion clinic. However, I'm not going to express to my children, should they become pregnant or get someone pregnant, that abortion is an option - the world already tells them that!

As for the question about pregnancy due to rape - I don't know! I would definitely have to pray that I don't kill the person first, then pray for God's guidance, wisdom, and understanding. But knowing what He already says about it, make the worldly decision even tougher!

polamalufan43
03-12-2007, 02:47 PM
Well, I am definately not a fan of abortion. I too can't see the point in ending a young child's life without it even having a chance or say so. To me, abortion is corrupt.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Preacher
03-12-2007, 11:43 PM
Hmmm...

Well, I guess it is no surprise to any of you that I am fully pro-life... let me rephrase. I do not beleive that it is right or should be lawful to abort and end a pregnancy.

Let me discuss this, without the appeal to emotion that both sides usually use.

Why am I pro-life?

1. I do not accept the "Right to a woman's body" argument. It is not codified in law. matter of fact, it is a misnomer. Neither men nor women have the right to put drugs into their body. Whether you like it or not, the govt. has seen fit to pass laws against it. No man or woman has a right to sell thier bodies for sex. It is also illegal.

Furthermore, I am a "Mandated reporter." If a person is talking about suicide, I MUST report it. Why? Because there is no codified law giving the person the right to suicide. However, there is a law DEMANDING me to try and STOP the suicide. Thus, there is no "right" to a person's own body, when it comes to protecting life.

2. Life. We are taught in science that spontaneous generation is not possilble. Life can only come from life (leave out the evolutionary problems and contradictions within science this observation produces). What we are left with, from a scientific perspective, is that the cells do not come alive, but are alive from the beginning. The life is human life. The cells do not produce a pig, or a goat, or anything else. Thus, from conception, there is life, and that life is genetic human life.

3. The declaration of independance puts forth the argument, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Thus, according to the declaration of independence, Every human being (remember, the etymology of the word "men" in this context means humans (all humans, which is the basis for women, blacks, and other minorities being recognized in American law as worthy of full rights) has the right within him/herself to life. The constitution is put into place, not to tell us what our rights are, but to tell the govt. what few rights they can take away from us, and the way they can take it away (and how to set up govt... etc.). As a result, based on the scientific fact that spontaneous generation refutes the argument that a fetus is not alive, based on the fact that there is no "right to ones own body" and based on the fact that our founding documents therefore protect life of the unborn child, I beleive abortion is illegal, regardless of what the courts decide.

4. On the sociological/psychological/historical side, I cannot help but see similarities between abortion, and two other recent events in history. Please read through these. I promise I am not making an emotional plea here... but trying to show strong similarites which point to a psychological phenominon.

in order for America to hold slaves, the people had to de-humanize blacks. They were no longer people, but ni##ers, and other names. They were called and considered monkeys. Why? Because the human psyche could not manage that type of treatment to other human beings. The same is true for the Jews in Germany. They were made to be sub-human. Now, I have found the same thing happening to children in teh womb. They were called a fetus. However, fetus is simply latin for Offspring or child when the designation was first given. We however have changed that definition to mean something OTHER then a child. Why? I posit the reason is because like the blacks in slavery and the Jews in Germany, we cannot do what we do to the unborn without first convincing ourselves that they are not living humans, regardless of the size and look.

5. On the issue of rape. Rape is possibly the MOST horrible thing that can happen to a human being. The only thing worse is murder, being that it ends the life of a human. What ends up happening, is that while the woman was put through the most horrible ordeal that she will have to deal with, her child will be put through an even more horrible ordeal.

Furthermore, despite what most people say, the chances of pregnancy during rape is estimated to be 4.7 percent of all pregnacies, or 32000 pregancies per year (U.S. Census). According to the National Organization of Women http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html an estimated 1.2 million women are raped every year (How horrible, later we can discuss why I want the death penalty for the idiots that do that dispicable act). What that means however, is that only 2.6 percent of who are raped end up pregnant. Thus, while that issue needs to be discussed, to ask "What about women who are raped" when it comes to abortion is a red herring, as very few women who are raped get pregnant. Furthermore, there are 1.3 million abortions a year according to an article in the New England Journal of Medicene http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/1/1. Therefore, if EVERY women who got pregant, had an abortion, only 2.4 percent of abortions are rape-related. However, the figures are actually around 1 to 1.5 percent (incliuding incest) http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html (could not find the political leaning of the source, but view the sources sited... U.N. figures, FBI and CDC.. it leads me to beleive that it is a balanced writing).

In the end, the "what about rape" argument is a non-issue on the whole to the subject of abortion.

stillers4me
03-13-2007, 05:13 AM
I am a woman and as far as I'm concerned, the right to choose about MY body is made before conception. After conception, I am now making a decision about another body and to abort it is nothing less than murder. I don't need a priest, minister or politician to tell me it's wrong.........it's just the way I feel.

I would not think less of a woman who decided to abort after rape, however I'm not sure I could do it even then. Thank God I've never been in that postion.

stlrtruck
03-13-2007, 09:34 AM
Hmmm...

Well, I guess it is no surprise to any of you that I am fully pro-life... let me rephrase. I do not beleive that it is right or should be lawful to abort and end a pregnancy.

Let me discuss this, without the appeal to emotion that both sides usually use.

Why am I pro-life?

1. I do not accept the "Right to a woman's body" argument. It is not codified in law. matter of fact, it is a misnomer. Neither men nor women have the right to put drugs into their body. Whether you like it or not, the govt. has seen fit to pass laws against it. No man or woman has a right to sell thier bodies for sex. It is also illegal.

Furthermore, I am a "Mandated reporter." If a person is talking about suicide, I MUST report it. Why? Because there is no codified law giving the person the right to suicide. However, there is a law DEMANDING me to try and STOP the suicide. Thus, there is no "right" to a person's own body, when it comes to protecting life.

2. Life. We are taught in science that spontaneous generation is not possilble. Life can only come from life (leave out the evolutionary problems and contradictions within science this observation produces). What we are left with, from a scientific perspective, is that the cells do not come alive, but are alive from the beginning. The life is human life. The cells do not produce a pig, or a goat, or anything else. Thus, from conception, there is life, and that life is genetic human life.

3. The declaration of independance puts forth the argument, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Thus, according to the declaration of independence, Every human being (remember, the etymology of the word "men" in this context means humans (all humans, which is the basis for women, blacks, and other minorities being recognized in American law as worthy of full rights) has the right within him/herself to life. The constitution is put into place, not to tell us what our rights are, but to tell the govt. what few rights they can take away from us, and the way they can take it away (and how to set up govt... etc.). As a result, based on the scientific fact that spontaneous generation refutes the argument that a fetus is not alive, based on the fact that there is no "right to ones own body" and based on the fact that our founding documents therefore protect life of the unborn child, I beleive abortion is illegal, regardless of what the courts decide.

4. On the sociological/psychological/historical side, I cannot help but see similarities between abortion, and two other recent events in history. Please read through these. I promise I am not making an emotional plea here... but trying to show strong similarites which point to a psychological phenominon.

in order for America to hold slaves, the people had to de-humanize blacks. They were no longer people, but ni##ers, and other names. They were called and considered monkeys. Why? Because the human psyche could not manage that type of treatment to other human beings. The same is true for the Jews in Germany. They were made to be sub-human. Now, I have found the same thing happening to children in teh womb. They were called a fetus. However, fetus is simply latin for Offspring or child when the designation was first given. We however have changed that definition to mean something OTHER then a child. Why? I posit the reason is because like the blacks in slavery and the Jews in Germany, we cannot do what we do to the unborn without first convincing ourselves that they are not living humans, regardless of the size and look.

5. On the issue of rape. Rape is possibly the MOST horrible thing that can happen to a human being. The only thing worse is murder, being that it ends the life of a human. What ends up happening, is that while the woman was put through the most horrible ordeal that she will have to deal with, her child will be put through an even more horrible ordeal.

Furthermore, despite what most people say, the chances of pregnancy during rape is estimated to be 4.7 percent of all pregnacies, or 32000 pregancies per year (U.S. Census). According to the National Organization of Women http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html an estimated 1.2 million women are raped every year (How horrible, later we can discuss why I want the death penalty for the idiots that do that dispicable act). What that means however, is that only 2.6 percent of who are raped end up pregnant. Thus, while that issue needs to be discussed, to ask "What about women who are raped" when it comes to abortion is a red herring, as very few women who are raped get pregnant. Furthermore, there are 1.3 million abortions a year according to an article in the New England Journal of Medicene http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/1/1. Therefore, if EVERY women who got pregant, had an abortion, only 2.4 percent of abortions are rape-related. However, the figures are actually around 1 to 1.5 percent (incliuding incest) http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html (could not find the political leaning of the source, but view the sources sited... U.N. figures, FBI and CDC.. it leads me to beleive that it is a balanced writing).

In the end, the "what about rape" argument is a non-issue on the whole to the subject of abortion.

I know this is suppose to be a one chance thread but I just wanted to say to PREACHER - thanks for that insight. It really gives me something to chew on!!!

steelerbackr4life
03-13-2007, 12:29 PM
Before I offer my opinion on this topic, I would like to say to Preacher that was an excellent post! You got your point across and even backed up your statistical claims with hyperlinks to show your source for the info. In the native tongue of a mod on this site "bravo chap" :thumbsup:

I being the son of a Mother who was born in another country who was adopted by Americans and being the Father of 2 gifts from God because of my wifes "high risk" status for child birth. Would never want any female in my family to abort a pregnancy. That being said I also would never talk someone out of a life decision such as abortion without being prepared to personally step in and take care of the child and or children resulting from a decision made by my influence.

I believe that if I am big enough to tell someone what they should do with their own life than I also must be big enough to step up to the plate and make sure that the human being brought into this world by a decision that I helped make has the same oppertunities as my own children. It is not their fault if they were brought into this world by someone not fit to be a parent.

Please understand that by making this commitment I am not saying that I would step in and make the child a charity case and just hand over money for everything or that I would automaticly look to be some type of foster parent. What I mean is I would do everything possible to help the Mother and Father (if around) become the kind of nurturing providing human being a parent should be to their children. If this meant helping out with child care or rent so a young parent can continue their education and one day stand on their own I would feel obligated to do so. After all attempts to help out the parents had been exhausted then and only then would I look to raising the children myself as a last resort only. Keep in mind this may mean becoming the foster parent of a child with any number of disabilities.

I would be unable to live with the inevitable guilt I would feel if the child or children that were brought into this world by a decision I helped make were suffering in any way shape or form. Maybe if everyone that is pro life would make this comittment to those who they feel the need to "save" the decision to abort or to have the child would be alot easier. Just because I know that I would be able to handle things thrown at me in life does not mean that other individuals would. Nor does it give me the right to tell them they can without being willing to help them in the process.

So while I personally am pro life I firmly believe it is not my place to tell anyone how to make their life decisions without being willing to assist them with any obstacles that may come as a result of that decision. For that reason I must regretably say I am pro choice.

Suitanim
03-13-2007, 03:52 PM
As the liberal Al Franken says, "Abortion should be legal, but rare".

What I find deeply disturbing is when it's used as birth control...

polamalufan43
03-13-2007, 03:53 PM
What I find deeply disturbing is when it's used as birth control...

Yeah, that's just crap and plain sick and wrong.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Elvis
03-13-2007, 06:17 PM
As the liberal Al Franken says, "Abortion should be legal, but rare".

What I find deeply disturbing is when it's used as birth control...
AMEN!!!!!! BUT NOT THE LEGAL PART...

Suitanim
03-13-2007, 07:59 PM
I'm afraid of anyone who is absolutely positively sure of something when that "something" is up for grabs, and even more so when they base it solely on a religious position.

There was a time when everyone (and the Church endorsed the position at the time)
KNEW that the Earth was flat. How'd that turn out?

Elvis
03-16-2007, 06:15 PM
I'm afraid of anyone who is absolutely positively sure of something when that "something" is up for grabs, and even more so when they base it solely on a religious position.

There was a time when everyone (and the Church endorsed the position at the time)
KNEW that the Earth was flat. How'd that turn out?
Where did your church endorsed information position come from? Got proof of that? Never read in the bible where it said the earth was flat myself..

tony hipchest
03-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Where did your church endorsed information position come from? Got proof of that? Never read in the bible where it said the earth was flat myself..there is a difference between the church and the bible. the church has endorsed lots of things that arent in the bible, but i think somebody has posted the scriptures that show that some authors of different books of it, actually knew the earth was round. LLT perhaps?

Suitanim
03-16-2007, 06:57 PM
Ha-ha-ha...blind faith is wonderful. God gave us a frontal lobe...it's a damned shame when religion overrides it's function.

Stainless Steel
03-16-2007, 08:34 PM
Ha-ha-ha...blind faith is wonderful. God gave us a frontal lobe...it's a damned shame when religion overrides it's function.
So you are saying that those who are religious don't use their brains? :screwy:

Suitanim
03-16-2007, 08:42 PM
No. I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized Religion. Know why? Because churches have become businesses now...remember when Jesus went into the temple? Hell, here's a quote:

Jesus went into the Temple and threw out all the people who were buying and selling there. He turned over the tables of those who were exchanging different kinds of money, and he upset the benches of those who were selling doves. Jesus said to all the people there, “It is written in the Scriptures, ‘My Temple will be called a house for prayer.’ But you are changing it into a ‘hideout for robbers.’ "

Religion has become a BIG business. Your beliefs have been tainted by that business...

Mine have not...

Stainless Steel
03-17-2007, 08:25 PM
No. I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized Religion. Know why? Because churches have become businesses now...remember when Jesus went into the temple? Hell, here's a quote:

Jesus went into the Temple and threw out all the people who were buying and selling there. He turned over the tables of those who were exchanging different kinds of money, and he upset the benches of those who were selling doves. Jesus said to all the people there, ?It is written in the Scriptures, ?My Temple will be called a house for prayer.? But you are changing it into a ?hideout for robbers.? "

Religion has become a BIG business. Your beliefs have been tainted by that business...

Mine have not...

Speak for yourself.

My beliefs have NOT been tainted by that "business" because I am not a part of that "big business". I run cross-grain to it. The things I teach would not be allowed in the "big business churches".

Elvis
03-17-2007, 09:52 PM
there is a difference between the church and the bible. the church has endorsed lots of things that arent in the bible, but i think somebody has posted the scriptures that show that some authors of different books of it, actually knew the earth was round. LLT perhaps?
I dont know what kind of church you are going to or talking about but a true Bible Believing Church, and that is the only kind that I will ever go to, will go strictly by the Bible... Amen?
Authors of different books? what is this ? Different versions of the Bible is the only thing I can think of that you might be talking about now. If your church doesnt stick to the Bible and speak the exact words of Jesus himself and believe these things which are written in the Bible then Tony... you need to find a new church brother..
King James Version Is My Choice.. not saying that this is the only choice but its mine..
Elvis

Elvis
03-17-2007, 09:56 PM
Speak for yourself.

My beliefs have NOT been tainted by that "business" because I am not a part of that "big business". I run cross-grain to it. The things I teach would not be allowed in the "big business churches".
God Bless Ya Stainless.... I agree 100%
Jesus said that we would be rejected and persecuted for our beleifs and it is happening even as we speak...
God is the same yesterday.. today... and tomorow
Elvis

Mosca
03-18-2007, 08:34 AM
Hey, I thought this was one chance. I could start a rebuttal for some points, but I thought the whole idea was once and done.

Goes to show, I guess.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-18-2007, 08:53 AM
100% anti-abortion in all cases.....One of the greatest mysteries to me of the liberal mind is:
...the adamant protection of the eggs of endangered species of birds yet the adamant demand for the right to abort human children....
...the adamant protection of the rainforests where "the cure to cancer my be found"....and the adamant demand for the right to end a life that may have been the scientist or doctor that would have found that cure.
....the adamant protection of convicted killers through the abolition of the death penalty....and the adamant demand for the right to end the life of one who never wronged anyone.

.....several years ago a young disabled teenager...a product of rape...disabled from the botched attempt to be aborted in the third trimester....went before congress and asked one ...simple....guestion....
"Who here will look me in the eye and tell me that I don't deserve life".

If my young daughter were raped....I would grieve greatly for the violation to her body..her heart and her soul....but that child would be MY GRANDCHILD...a part of her and a part of me....That little baby had no choice to how it came to be...and the ONLY person that should be given the death sentence for that act would be the rapist.
I think its a good thing that we dont apply that same legal justification to other crimes....Kill the innocent and "jail" the guilty?

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-18-2007, 09:02 AM
there is a difference between the church and the bible. the church has endorsed lots of things that arent in the bible, but i think somebody has posted the scriptures that show that some authors of different books of it, actually knew the earth was round. LLT perhaps?


Isa 40:22 It is He who sits above the sphere of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far he has removed our sin from us.

Mosca
03-18-2007, 10:56 AM
One of the greatest mysteries to me of the liberal mind is:
...the adamant protection of the eggs of endangered species of birds yet the adamant demand for the right to abort human children....
...the adamant protection of the rainforests where "the cure to cancer my be found"....and the adamant demand for the right to end a life that may have been the scientist or doctor that would have found that cure.
....the adamant protection of convicted killers through the abolition of the death penalty....and the adamant demand for the right to end the life of one who never wronged anyone.



Well, since this isn't "One Chance" any more,

Not everyone holds all those thoughts in the same mind. What you have said is the same thing as me saying that everyone who opposes abortion is in favor of extinction, the deforestation of the planet, and the death penalty. It's simply not true. I know many people who are against outlawing abortion, but who would never consider abortion for themselves or their family. Those are two different issues.

There's a difference between being against abortion and being against abortion legislation.

One side attempts to over emotionalize the issue, the other tries to strip it of all emotion. But the law of the land, in the end, has to make an attempt to accommodate all types of people. It shouldn't have to ignore those who want access to abortion in favor of those who oppose that access. It's possible to be against abortion, but not against banning abortion.

And, don't forget that the aborted fetus could grow up to be a genocidal maniac who pushes the button. In the end, any such argument as that falls victim to the nature of the unknowable, whereas the rainforest argument has the potential for genuine loss. It's another case of confusing scientific possibility and genuine uncertainty.

Stainless Steel
03-18-2007, 11:05 AM
Hey, I thought this was one chance. I could start a rebuttal for some points, but I thought the whole idea was once and done.

Goes to show, I guess.
Actually, I have only posted one post about abortion on this thread. :flap:

We have just been working on hijacking the thread. :thumbsup:

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-18-2007, 11:49 AM
Well, since this isn't "One Chance" any more,

What you have said is the same thing as me saying that everyone who opposes abortion is in favor of extinction, the deforestation of the planet, and the death penalty. It's simply not true. .

NO...actually I said that the LIBERAL mindset...not the LIBERAL as an individual believes these things....

And, don't forget that the aborted fetus could grow up to be a genocidal maniac who pushes the button.

But my mindset in that post was that a person is innocent UNTIL proven guilty....we dont penalize those for what they may do.

Mosca
03-18-2007, 12:32 PM
NO...actually I said that the LIBERAL mindset...not the LIBERAL as an individual believes these things....



But my mindset in that post was that a person is innocent UNTIL proven guilty....we dont penalize those for what they may do.

I purposely avoided typing "conservative mindset" because I felt it would cloud the issue. I thought it was divisive to use the terms "liberal" and "conservative", that it would deflect from the issue being discussed. I, too, didn't say any individual. I said, "everyone who opposes abortion" to avoid loading the discussion with buzzwords like liberal and conservative; there are lots of liberals who oppose abortion, but not abortion legislation. The idea was the same, that lumping people together like that has no basis in truth. I could say a lot about conservative mindset, but it would be just as much bs as writing about liberal mindset.

And my point is that there is a difference between a random, unknowable future and having unknown things already and destroying them. It's the difference, in logical terms, between "I might get a present!", and "I have these presents, but I'm going to burn them instead of opening them." Taking the present and transposing it backward is a facile argument, but ultimately pointless in that it asks us here in the present to project the effects of our actions years in advance. It can't be done. A man may present himself 10 years hence as a rapist, or as the father of a future Nobel Peace Prize winner; but you aren't going to make your parole decision today based on what might happen.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-18-2007, 01:32 PM
I purposely avoided typing "conservative mindset" because I felt it would cloud the issue. I thought it was divisive to use the terms "liberal" and "conservative", that it would deflect from the issue being discussed. I, too, didn't say any individual. I said, "everyone who opposes abortion" to avoid loading the discussion with buzzwords like liberal and conservative; there are lots of liberals who oppose abortion, but not abortion legislation. The idea was the same, that lumping people together like that has no basis in truth. I could say a lot about conservative mindset, but it would be just as much bs as writing about liberal mindset.

And my point is that there is a difference between a random, unknowable future and having unknown things already and destroying them. It's the difference, in logical terms, between "I might get a present!", and "I have these presents, but I'm going to burn them instead of opening them." Taking the present and transposing it backward is a facile argument, but ultimately pointless in that it asks us here in the present to project the effects of our actions years in advance. It can't be done. A man may present himself 10 years hence as a rapist, or as the father of a future Nobel Peace Prize winner; but you aren't going to make your parole decision today based on what might happen.

I guess I'm confused...I wasnt painting EVERYONE with the same brush...but I can say with accuracy that those who lean more to the left are predominately pro-abortion....and I would never make the mistake of assuming that Democrats and Liberals are one and the same.

...and I agree with your second statement..hence the hypocricy of those who make an arguement in relationship to the eggs of endangered birds yet dont apply the same logic for unborn children..the same truth that you speak of MUST either apply or not apply in both cases