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Suitanim
03-16-2007, 08:57 PM
Read the article...read it carefully before you comment. My assessment will not be politically correct, but here it is:

Throw race out the window. We're all getting sick of that excuse, and that dog don't hunt anymore. If you get a chance that you couldn't/wouldn't/maybe even shouldn't get, TAKE IT! Don't **** up and then play the race card.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1599099,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

Is a Top School Forcing Out Low-Performing Students?

By Melba Newsome/Charlotte
Things were not going well for Jasmine Boulware during her first year at prestigious Myers Park High School in Charlotte, N.C. The 16-year-old freshman had racked up several disciplinary suspensions, mainly for disruptive behavior. So when the assistant principal called her into his office in February, 2005, she anticipated another reprimand. Instead, she was told that her days at Myers Park were over. "He said I wasn't learning anything, wasn't going to learn anything and only wanted to hang out with my friends," Jasmine recalls. "He told me there was no place for students like me at Myers Park." Jasmine's mother, Kelly Kennedy, says she reluctantly allowed her daughter to withdraw, but only after being told that Jasmine could return to Myers Park in the fall.
But when Jasmine tried to re-enroll the following September, she was turned away, according to her mother. Kennedy pleaded her daughter's case to then-principal Bill Anderson but says he was unmoved, citing the teenager's past disciplinary problems and excessive absenteeism. It was only when Kennedy went directly to the Charlotte Mecklenburg district office that she learned the school had no legal basis to exclude Jasmine. Suspecting a pattern of forcing out minority students, Kennedy told school district officials that she intended to refer the matter to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the Congressional Black Caucus. Jasmine was back in school within the week.
Jasmine is not the only struggling student who claims to have been pushed out or encouraged to leave Myers Park High. Another Myers Park mother, Susan Arnette, claims when she and her daughter Brianna Govan were living in a homeless shelter, Brianna was frequently late or absent. Anderson forced her to leave school, saying she was "not Myers Park material." Documents obtained by TIME and interviews with former students, parents and school employees strongly suggest that Myers Park had an unofficial policy of ridding itself of underperforming students during Anderson's tenure from 2002 to 2005 and perhaps beyond, by using tactics including listing dropouts as out-of-state transfers. The school district is currently investigating the matter. Anderson did not respond to requests for an interview, but denied any wrongdoing in an e-mail: "My philosophy was to make all decisions in the best interests of the students we served." Anderson now consults to the school district and heads a dropout prevention program ? an ironic choice, if the allegations prove to be correct.
With expansive tree-lined streets and stately million-dollar homes, Myers Park is one of Charlotte's most desirable addresses. Its superb high school, which offers the International Baccalaureate program and a rich menu of Advanced Placement classes, is a big part of its appeal. The school serves 3,000 students, 66% of them white, 22% black and 4% hispanic. North Carolina designated it a School of Distinction; Lloyd Wimberley, who headed the school from 1996 to 2002, was named North Carolina Principal of the Year in 2002; and the school has consistently ranked in the top 20 on Newsweek magazine's list of best high schools in the country.
However, like many other high-flying schools with a substantial minority and low-income population, Myers Park has been under increasing pressure to close the achievement gap between students that are white and black, rich and poor. In 2006, only 51% of its black students performed at levels III/IV ? proficient and above ? on state exams, compared with 90% of white. Under the 2001 No Child Left Behind Act, schools that fail to close such a gap are declared "failing schools" ? no matter how well the majority are doing ? and can face a loss of federal Title 1 funding for low-income students.
In the current era of school accountability, there are other pressures to keep scores uniformly high. State test scores are routinely published in news accounts and have a considerable influence on local property values. In addition, many states and cities offer financial incentives for teachers and principals at schools that score high. "Principals are desperate to provide good news and reassure their communities that they are in good shape," says former principal Wimberley.
In this atmosphere, there's a big incentive for schools to artificially inflate their achievement data. Earlier this year, an investigation found that scores on state tests at the elite Charles E. Brimm Medical Arts High School in Camden, N.J., had been manipulated. Investigators concluded that there was "enormous pressure" from the superintendent on down "to generate high test scores."
North Carolina and Charlotte offer monetary incentives of up to $1500 to teachers and even larger bonuses for principals whose schools meet or exceed certain performance criteria. Among those criteria are high school graduation rates, a factor that should, in theory, encourage schools to keep kids in school, not push underachievers out. But school documents obtained by TIME suggest that Myers Park found a way around this: reporting that students who had dropped out had instead transferred out of the district.
Jasmine Boulware, for instance, was listed as an out-of-state transfer ? even though her two siblings still attended the high school. At least two dozen students officially listed as transfers were found by TIME to still be living in the district. Among them was Andrew Dreher, a white student who voluntarily dropped out in 10th grade, never left Charlotte and is currently working at a fast food restaurant.
The school district is investigating whether the inaccurate records reflect a pattern of deception or sloppy paperwork. "We have uncovered some legitimate questions as to how some information has been handled," says Nora Carr, chief communications officer for the district.
A former Myers Park counselor, who asked not to be identified, says that during Anderson's three-year tenure at the school, it was an open secret that underperforming and/or problem students were pressured to leave or told they could not return after disciplinary suspensions. "We all saw the push-out going on," she recalls. "It was almost a joke. In front of the faculty of 150, Anderson would say 'get your attendances in. If the students have excessive absences, we can get rid of them and send them to the school of far, far away.'" The school of far, far away, she explains, was a euphemism for getting rid of problem students.
"This is an easy way to deal with a difficult problem," says Wimberley, who became a district assistant superintendent after leaving Myers Park. "They want to get certain kids out because if they're struggling or not attending class, they're going to score low on the tests and blow their whole average." In the Charlotte Mecklenburg School District, he notes, "the principal's evaluation is heavily weighted to student performance and achievement."
Anderson denies both the charge and the alleged motivation: "To suggest that my staff and I conspired to push students out of school to ensure higher test scores is a theory that is without merit," he said in an e-mail. "As a school community Myers Park works diligently to help all students succeed."
That may be, but Lloyd Wimberley sees a sad irony in the way current national pressures to close achievement gaps can actually work against the neediest students. "No Child Left Behind has resulted in increased resentment toward at-risk and exceptional-needs kids," he says. "It's sad that legislation intended to improve the outcome for these kids is backfiring."
Jasmine Boulware, now 18, appears to be one of those kids. Six weeks after returning to Myers Park in September 2005, she had fallen hopelessly behind. Frustrated and unable to get the kind of help she needed, she voluntarily dropped out and became pregnant shortly thereafter. "I want to get my GED or something, but I don't know how to go about it," she says. In the meantime, Jasmine spends her days in her mom's apartment, watching television, chatting on the phone with friends and caring for her infant daughter, Kaiyaree.

SteelCzar76
03-16-2007, 09:26 PM
Read the article...read it carefully before you comment. My assessment will not be politically correct, but here it is:

Throw race out the window. We're all getting sick of that excuse, and that dog don't hunt anymore. If you get a chance that you couldn't/wouldn't/maybe even shouldn't get, TAKE IT! Don't **** up and then play the race card.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1599099,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

Is a Top School Forcing Out Low-Performing Students?

By Melba Newsome/Charlotte
Things were not going well for Jasmine Boulware during her first year at prestigious Myers Park High School in Charlotte, N.C. The 16-year-old freshman had racked up several disciplinary suspensions, mainly for disruptive behavior. So when the assistant principal called her into his office in February, 2005, she anticipated another reprimand. Instead, she was told that her days at Myers Park were over. "He said I wasn't learning anything, wasn't going to learn anything and only wanted to hang out with my friends," Jasmine recalls. "He told me there was no place for students like me at Myers Park." Jasmine's mother, Kelly Kennedy, says she reluctantly allowed her daughter to withdraw, but only after being told that Jasmine could return to Myers Park in the fall.
But when Jasmine tried to re-enroll the following September, she was turned away, according to her mother. Kennedy pleaded her daughter's case to then-principal Bill Anderson but says he was unmoved, citing the teenager's past disciplinary problems and excessive absenteeism. It was only when Kennedy went directly to the Charlotte Mecklenburg district office that she learned the school had no legal basis to exclude Jasmine. Suspecting a pattern of forcing out minority students, Kennedy told school district officials that she intended to refer the matter to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the Congressional Black Caucus. Jasmine was back in school within the week.
Jasmine is not the only struggling student who claims to have been pushed out or encouraged to leave Myers Park High. Another Myers Park mother, Susan Arnette, claims when she and her daughter Brianna Govan were living in a homeless shelter, Brianna was frequently late or absent. Anderson forced her to leave school, saying she was "not Myers Park material." Documents obtained by TIME and interviews with former students, parents and school employees strongly suggest that Myers Park had an unofficial policy of ridding itself of underperforming students during Anderson's tenure from 2002 to 2005 and perhaps beyond, by using tactics including listing dropouts as out-of-state transfers. The school district is currently investigating the matter. Anderson did not respond to requests for an interview, but denied any wrongdoing in an e-mail: "My philosophy was to make all decisions in the best interests of the students we served." Anderson now consults to the school district and heads a dropout prevention program ? an ironic choice, if the allegations prove to be correct.
With expansive tree-lined streets and stately million-dollar homes, Myers Park is one of Charlotte's most desirable addresses. Its superb high school, which offers the International Baccalaureate program and a rich menu of Advanced Placement classes, is a big part of its appeal. The school serves 3,000 students, 66% of them white, 22% black and 4% hispanic. North Carolina designated it a School of Distinction; Lloyd Wimberley, who headed the school from 1996 to 2002, was named North Carolina Principal of the Year in 2002; and the school has consistently ranked in the top 20 on Newsweek magazine's list of best high schools in the country.
However, like many other high-flying schools with a substantial minority and low-income population, Myers Park has been under increasing pressure to close the achievement gap between students that are white and black, rich and poor. In 2006, only 51% of its black students performed at levels III/IV ? proficient and above ? on state exams, compared with 90% of white. Under the 2001 No Child Left Behind Act, schools that fail to close such a gap are declared "failing schools" ? no matter how well the majority are doing ? and can face a loss of federal Title 1 funding for low-income students.
In the current era of school accountability, there are other pressures to keep scores uniformly high. State test scores are routinely published in news accounts and have a considerable influence on local property values. In addition, many states and cities offer financial incentives for teachers and principals at schools that score high. "Principals are desperate to provide good news and reassure their communities that they are in good shape," says former principal Wimberley.
In this atmosphere, there's a big incentive for schools to artificially inflate their achievement data. Earlier this year, an investigation found that scores on state tests at the elite Charles E. Brimm Medical Arts High School in Camden, N.J., had been manipulated. Investigators concluded that there was "enormous pressure" from the superintendent on down "to generate high test scores."
North Carolina and Charlotte offer monetary incentives of up to $1500 to teachers and even larger bonuses for principals whose schools meet or exceed certain performance criteria. Among those criteria are high school graduation rates, a factor that should, in theory, encourage schools to keep kids in school, not push underachievers out. But school documents obtained by TIME suggest that Myers Park found a way around this: reporting that students who had dropped out had instead transferred out of the district.
Jasmine Boulware, for instance, was listed as an out-of-state transfer ? even though her two siblings still attended the high school. At least two dozen students officially listed as transfers were found by TIME to still be living in the district. Among them was Andrew Dreher, a white student who voluntarily dropped out in 10th grade, never left Charlotte and is currently working at a fast food restaurant.
The school district is investigating whether the inaccurate records reflect a pattern of deception or sloppy paperwork. "We have uncovered some legitimate questions as to how some information has been handled," says Nora Carr, chief communications officer for the district.
A former Myers Park counselor, who asked not to be identified, says that during Anderson's three-year tenure at the school, it was an open secret that underperforming and/or problem students were pressured to leave or told they could not return after disciplinary suspensions. "We all saw the push-out going on," she recalls. "It was almost a joke. In front of the faculty of 150, Anderson would say 'get your attendances in. If the students have excessive absences, we can get rid of them and send them to the school of far, far away.'" The school of far, far away, she explains, was a euphemism for getting rid of problem students.
"This is an easy way to deal with a difficult problem," says Wimberley, who became a district assistant superintendent after leaving Myers Park. "They want to get certain kids out because if they're struggling or not attending class, they're going to score low on the tests and blow their whole average." In the Charlotte Mecklenburg School District, he notes, "the principal's evaluation is heavily weighted to student performance and achievement."
Anderson denies both the charge and the alleged motivation: "To suggest that my staff and I conspired to push students out of school to ensure higher test scores is a theory that is without merit," he said in an e-mail. "As a school community Myers Park works diligently to help all students succeed."
That may be, but Lloyd Wimberley sees a sad irony in the way current national pressures to close achievement gaps can actually work against the neediest students. "No Child Left Behind has resulted in increased resentment toward at-risk and exceptional-needs kids," he says. "It's sad that legislation intended to improve the outcome for these kids is backfiring."
Jasmine Boulware, now 18, appears to be one of those kids. Six weeks after returning to Myers Park in September 2005, she had fallen hopelessly behind. Frustrated and unable to get the kind of help she needed, she voluntarily dropped out and became pregnant shortly thereafter. "I want to get my GED or something, but I don't know how to go about it," she says. In the meantime, Jasmine spends her days in her mom's apartment, watching television, chatting on the phone with friends and caring for her infant daughter, Kaiyaree.




Is this 'racisim',.... or a matter of someone failing to accept responsibility for their own wellbeing, future and or livelyhood ?
In my opinion 'racism' may very well play a part to a degree,.....but at the end of the day how one handles adversity and obstacles of their own design and or those of others,....is what is of the greatest importatnce and worth.
Ie: The 'traps' are there,......but you are not forced into them,......it's a concious decision on your part to accept defeat.
But even with that said,......many of those from families with less 'Patrician' backgrounds are often lacking the resources, guidance and or proper perspective from birth. And simply are truthfully unaware of the gravity of how important 'duty' is,....until they have dug themselves a considerable hole. (And sometimes not before they finish themselves)

Suitanim
03-16-2007, 09:32 PM
Let's just say this: If this girl was white, this article would never see the light of day...

SteelCzar76
03-16-2007, 10:36 PM
Let's just say this: If this girl was white, this article would never see the light of day...


That may be fair to say indeed,...but remember,.....this also applies to 'both sides' of the 'Race Card'. Is it nonsense ?,.....yes. But such is the power and effectiveness of the 'machine'.

SteelCityMan786
03-16-2007, 10:42 PM
It's discrimination.

Stlrs4Life
03-17-2007, 08:59 AM
Let's just say this: If this girl was white, this article would never see the light of day...



You're probably right it wouldn't. It doesn't erase the fact that it happens.

Suitanim
03-19-2007, 07:08 PM
All I asked was that you guys read the article first. Maybe I should have changed the article and excluded her race altogether...

Let's try again. This girl was not being denied a free public school education. She was free to go to other public schools, an option she denied. She was a disciplinary problem, and didn't learn her lesson. This is not a racist school. They have 22% black students. In a Country with 12-14% blacks, this would be disproportionate to begin with, but it also sounds like the community itself is pretty affluent, which makes it even moreso.

In fact, the allegations themselves are ridiculous on their face...they kicked out an under-performing student who had been suspended several times for being disruptive.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-19-2007, 07:22 PM
I read only the first few lines......Disruptive behavior......enough to be thrown from school.....I dont need to read anymore.......Parents need to take control of their kids...

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-19-2007, 07:29 PM
I read only the first few lines......Disruptive behavior......enough to be thrown from school.....I dont need to read anymore.......Parents need to take control of their kids...It takes a lot, and I mean a lot more than disruptive behavior to be thrown out of a public high school.

Mosca
03-20-2007, 11:41 AM
I'd read that article before. I didn't get the impression that the students were being forced out because they were minorities, I understood the point to be that they were forced out because they were underperforming. It is the circumstance that forces the race issue, that a high % of the affected students are minorities. Race is incidental to the larger problem, which is that the school is solving its NCLBA problem by eliminating failing students instead of educating them.

That of course opens up a whole 'nother bunch of arguments, such as whether someone like Jasmine Boulware is educable without her participation in said education, and is the NCLBA realistic and practicable given the way it leverages funding toward the goal of educating children like Boulware, whether she likes it or not. Suitanim, I'm not sure if it is your intent to also raise those issues. But, I don't think the principal's actions were racist. They were practical, and debatable, but not racist.


Tom

Suitanim
03-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Suitanim, I'm not sure if it is your intent to also raise those issues. But, I don't think the principal's actions were racist. They were practical, and debatable, but not racist.

Tom

The issues are absolutely integral to each other...NCLBA is a noble idea, but it's hopelessly flawed, just as any other "solution" will be. The education system is ruined, probably irreparably, by the "Dr. Spock" liberals who destroyed a system of reward and punishment that worked for the previous 10,000 years just fine...

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-20-2007, 07:19 PM
Sounds like an elitist principle who is more concerned with meeting the standards of NCLB than he is with the education of his students.

Suitanim
03-20-2007, 07:29 PM
"Education"? In this Country?

Hell, that principle died 20 years ago...now the school is daycare. My niece is 14, and I can't help her with her homework. Why? Math is now "accurate", not precise. There is no room in math for "close", yet they now "group things" and close now counts...thank Christ we didn't use this "New Math" to land on the moon...

In fact, is it any surprise that Colleges are now dumping the SAT and ACT's, even the new dumbed-down ones they use?

We are raising a generation of idiots who can download video from a TV to a PC, but can't make change for a $5 or tell time on an analog clock.

Edman
03-20-2007, 07:33 PM
It all comes down to this question...

Did she get the OPPORTUNITY to improve and succeed?

The answer is yes, and she blew it. So it's her fault. You'll get opportunities in this country, but it's up to the individual regardless of race to seize the moment and take responsibility. If you don't and you fail, Tough. I'm in the minority class and I'm on my way to graduating this year. No race card.

Mosca
03-20-2007, 07:59 PM
Oh hell, I send my daughter to a private school so WTF do I know. I pay my taxes though, and I have a vested interest in making sure the rest of the next generation gets an education.

NCLBA is a Bush initiative. But I think back to "new math" and shake my head. But again, I couldn't help my daughter with her math homework last year (as a freshman) not because of it being new math, but because I didn't remember any of my college level calculus.

Some kids have parents who care, and they want to learn, and they'll succeed. Some kids have parents who don't give a shit, and they won't learn. BUT, some kids who have parents who care will give them a big FU! and become 420s, and some kids with parents who are f*ckups will burn to learn so they can make something of themselves.

The system puts the material in front of the kids, but the kids have to want to take it. The school district in question seems to be doing one hell of a job in producing REAL results for the students who care. It's just hard work and caring I think. And weeding out the kids who are being disruptive and sapping energy from the rest of the community.

I'm not sure how liberal and conservative enter into it, I think there's enough stupidity on both sides of the ball, feeding on itself. One group says something really stupid: "I know! Let's let them get the answers just close! Then EVERYONE can get A+" And the other says, "Nonono, you got it all wrong!" and then proposes something monumentally beyond that: "Let's tie funding to NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND!" It's all about posturing for votes, and has nothing to do with educating our future.

If you want your kids to be educated, take an interest in it. Check their homework. Meet the teachers. Go to the events. One of the things that your children want most is your approval. Just that you take an interest in their progress is approval that they are on the right track.

But don't sit in front of the TV watching soap operas and then sue when your disruptive, disinterested kid gets shunted off to the side.


Tom

Suitanim
03-20-2007, 08:10 PM
New math is just a symptom of the disease. Math starts with adding and subtracting, and you can't get to abstract algebra without taking all the requisite steps in between. But it's HARD to teach kids that all have autism and ADHD and whatever other bullshit excuse is dumped on us how to actually memorize things and learn how to learn and yada, yada, yada...

This all my makes my head hurt, but I will say this: If you actually have the courage to have and raise a child in the midst of this mixed up mess we are in, God Bless you.

Stlrs4Life
03-20-2007, 09:13 PM
I hear ya Suit!

Mosca
03-20-2007, 10:42 PM
Actually, the newest issue of Discover magazine has a good article on the recent upswing in cases of autism and Ausperger's syndrome. It's real, not just an increase in diagnosis. There are a lot of causes, autism not a disease per se but a symptom with many different causes. ADD, I don't know that much about. But close friends have a son who was diagnosed with ADD when he was five, and whatever they did changed him from someone who was uncontrollable, bouncing off the walls in class, to a kid who graduated in the upper half and is now in college going for a degree in justice. So, again, maybe there's something in the water?


As far as raising a child today, honestly it's been part love, part hard work, and part luck. The right friends makes a huge difference.

And it's far from over, there's two more years of high school and who the hell knows what will happen when we set her free for her first year of college. She could go completely off track. God I hope not, but that's what I did and she's a lot like me, so there's some history there. To her credit she works a lot harder at school than I ever did.


Tom

fansince'76
03-20-2007, 11:03 PM
....But it's HARD to teach kids that all have autism and ADHD and whatever other bullshit excuse is dumped on us how to actually memorize things and learn how to learn and yada, yada, yada....

When I was coming up back in the '70s and '80s, there was a cure for "A.D.D." that worked 99.999% of the time - it was called a good asswhooping by bringing anything lower than a "B" home on the report card. No pills, no counselors, just a strap to the backside - amazing how effective that cure was. Of course, parents today run the risk of going to jail by employing it.

SteelCzar76
03-21-2007, 08:01 AM
When I was coming up back in the '70s and '80s, there was a cure for "A.D.D." that worked 99.999% of the time - it was called a good asswhooping by bringing anything lower than a "B" home on the report card. No pills, no counselors, just a strap to the backside - amazing how effective that cure was. Of course, parents today run the risk of going to jail by employing it.




I received such 'medication' more than i'd like to remember. :sofunny: But i will admit,.... it does build toughness and 'character'.

stlrtruck
03-21-2007, 09:26 AM
I read only the first few lines......Disruptive behavior......enough to be thrown from school.....I dont need to read anymore.......Parents need to take control of their kids...

I read the article but I agree that parents need to take control of their children and their behavior. It amazes me today that kids and even some parents want to blame someone else for their lack of respect and/or obedience instead of taking hold of responsibility. This generation is in for a world of hurt when they grow up. Then they will wonder why their children can't handle responsibility.

As for the school, they've got issues of their own but it doesn't mean that the students shouldn't be held to some sort of accountability for their actions in the classroom.

floodcitygirl
03-21-2007, 09:33 AM
When I was coming up back in the '70s and '80s, there was a cure for "A.D.D." that worked 99.999% of the time - it was called a good asswhooping by bringing anything lower than a "B" home on the report card. No pills, no counselors, just a strap to the backside - amazing how effective that cure was. Of course, parents today run the risk of going to jail by employing it.I am a strong believer in the importance of discipline in the life of a child. I also know that learning disabilities are real. They existed back in the 70's. I know people who had their asses kicked on a regular basis by parents, teachers, priests and nuns and the only thing it accomplished was convincing them that they were stupid, couldn't learn, and wouldn't be successful. They were told they were incorrigible. The reality is that they were very intelligent kids who needed to learn in a different way than was being presented. In some cases they saw things differently (backwords) or their minds couldn't hold onto information unless they could see it and hear it first. It wasn't a lack of desire to learn or sit still. Unfortunately, the testing and understanding at the time was very limited.

Obviously, not every kid that misbehaves has ADHD or a learning disability. Some have never been taught how to behave. But just because something has been overdiagnosed and used an an excuse doesn't mean that there are not valid cases. If those kids are given the right environment, it's amazing what they can accomplish. :smile:

fansince'76
03-21-2007, 09:44 AM
I am a strong believer in the importance of discipline in the life of a child. I also know that learning disabilities are real. They existed back in the 70's. I know people who had their asses kicked on a regular basis by parents, teachers, priests and nuns and the only thing it accomplished was convincing them that they were stupid, couldn't learn, and wouldn't be successful. They were told they were incorrigible. The reality is that they were very intelligent kids who needed to learn in a different way than was being presented. In some cases they saw things differently (backwords) or their minds couldn't hold onto information unless they could see it and hear it first. It wasn't a lack of desire to learn or sit still. Unfortunately, the testing and understanding at the time was very limited.

Obviously, not every kid that misbehaves has ADHD or a learning disability. Some have never been taught how to behave. But just because something has been overdiagnosed and used an an excuse doesn't mean that there are not valid cases. If those kids are given the right environment, it's amazing what they can accomplish. :smile:

Point taken, FCG. I also agree that A.D.D. and learning disabilities such as dyslexia existed back in the '70s, but they weren't used as all-encompassing copouts like they are today. Notice I only said 99.999%? The first thing that is done with most "problem children" nowadays is a visit to a shrink followed up in short order by a prescription of Ritalin or some other type of drug.

floodcitygirl
03-21-2007, 10:22 AM
Point taken, FCG. I also agree that A.D.D. and learning disabilities such as dyslexia existed back in the '70s, but they weren't used as all-encompassing copouts like they are today. Notice I only said 99.999%? The first thing that is done with most "problem children" nowadays is a visit to a shrink followed up in short order by a prescription of Ritalin or some other type of drug.I understand and didn't mean to single you out. (I used your post because it related to what I was thinking.) Just because a child has learning disabilities is no excuse for bad behaviour either. Given the right treatment and environment, they have to learn what's acceptable.

It's hard to know why we've seen such an increase in the diagnosis of these learning differences. I do think that there has been an increase in understanding of some of it but I also agree that there has been an alarming increase of kids that are being diagnosed and a rush to put kids on meds when that should never be the first choice. I really think it's a problem, especially with boys. (This is a real "hot button" with me, sorry). So much of the way our children are taught today, favor girls. If you look at the way classrooms are set up with tons of color and "stuff" everywhere which (in general) is very distracting for little boys. And then, we demand that they sit still, be quiet and pay attention which is again not the natural way for most little boys to be. Most do better in a visually quiet setting and do better learning when they can touch and be involved in an activity. So then we say that boy is hyper, stick him on meds so that he'll conform and turn him into a little zombie.

I also wonder if there aren't more actual cases of kids with learning disabilities? Is it the processed foods we eat??? Environment??? Who knows??? I don't think it's all just bs though.

I know this is off a bit from the original topic. Thanks for what I consider to be an interesting conversation during this off season. :smile:

83-Steelers-43
03-21-2007, 10:51 AM
I read the article but I agree that parents need to take control of their children and their behavior. It amazes me today that kids and even some parents want to blame someone else for their lack of respect and/or obedience instead of taking hold of responsibility.

My sister is a teacher and she has witnessed it first hand on numerous occasions (Penn-Trafford school district). The kid comes to school, he or she is unable to behave and the mother comes in and blames everybody in the world except her kid or parenting.

It's pretty obvious where these kids get it from when you meet the "parents". The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in many cases.

floodcitygirl
03-21-2007, 12:25 PM
My sister is a teacher and she has witnessed it first hand on numerous occasions (Penn-Trafford school district). The kid comes to school, he or she is unable to behave and the mother comes in and blames everybody in the world except her kid or parenting.

It's pretty obvious where these kids get it from when you meet the "parents". The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in many cases.I couldn't agree more about chilren in most cases. My older son is a mostly A, some B student, just achieved his black belt in tae kwon do at 14 (took first place in a breaking competition in his first tournament this past weekend), is a leader in his youth group, and other parents and neighbors consistantly tell me what a polite, kind, respectful, and responsible young man he is. He's darn nice looking too. :wink02: BTW he also has learning challenges which has made me all the more proud of him and the man he is becoming.

As far as teachers go, I've witnessed good and bad....in public and private schools. For instance, he had wonderful teachers in kindergarten and 7th grade who understood that not all children learn the same way and worked very hard to understand and help him as well as team with me. He also had the misfortune of having teachers in 5th grade that were complete ass h*les (who out of his presence, I referred to as femi-nazis) who thought they knew more about my child than I or his doctors did.

I guess as in most of life, balance is the key.

83-Steelers-43
03-21-2007, 12:47 PM
I read only the first few lines......Disruptive behavior......enough to be thrown from school.....I dont need to read anymore.......Parents need to take control of their kids...

I agree. "Several" warnings and she eventually got the boot. Do you keep warning her time after time? White or black. I'm sure the "mother" who let's her 18 year old spend the day sitting around in the aparment, watching tv and talking to friends blames everybody else though.

Good job! :thumbsup:

ARKIESTEEL
03-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Down here in Arkansas they still beat the crap out of us in high school. They would give you the choice of the whipping or to stay after school for a week. I always took the beating.


Now you cant even look at a kid with out somebody calling the aclu

floodcitygirl
03-21-2007, 03:21 PM
I read the article but I agree that parents need to take control of their children and their behavior. It amazes me today that kids and even some parents want to blame someone else for their lack of respect and/or obedience instead of taking hold of responsibility. This generation is in for a world of hurt when they grow up. Then they will wonder why their children can't handle responsibility.

As for the school, they've got issues of their own but it doesn't mean that the students shouldn't be held to some sort of accountability for their actions in the classroom.I agree 100% :thumbsup: I used various methods of disciplining my son when he was younger which included spanking, specifically for rebellion or disobeying in a dangerous situation. I always told him that if he did something at school that was bad enough that they had to call me, he shouldn't worry about the corporal punishment that they might give him....he should be more concerned about me. (lol) I've not gotten a call yet. We still have to make it thru high school, which he starts next year. I haven't had to spank him since he was 7 years old. If school felt like they needed to at this point, he'd still have it a lot worse at home than they could ever do. My hope was that by this time he would develop good character and self discipline. (Obviously still needing guidance and direction.) Honestly if a child is going to misbehave to that degree at that age, I don't know how much good whipping him is going to do? It seems to me that it should have been handled years before, at home. It makes things bad on everybody when it's not.

ARKIESTEEL
03-21-2007, 03:52 PM
Flood .... I am calling DHS!!!!

floodcitygirl
03-21-2007, 04:43 PM
Flood .... I am calling DHS!!!!No problem, Arkie. :flap: :wink02:

stlrtruck
03-22-2007, 10:06 AM
I agree 100% :thumbsup: I used various methods of disciplining my son when he was younger which included spanking, specifically for rebellion or disobeying in a dangerous situation. I always told him that if he did something at school that was bad enough that they had to call me, he shouldn't worry about the corporal punishment that they might give him....he should be more concerned about me. (lol) I've not gotten a call yet. We still have to make it thru high school, which he starts next year. I haven't had to spank him since he was 7 years old. If school felt like they needed to at this point, he'd still have it a lot worse at home than they could ever do. My hope was that by this time he would develop good character and self discipline. (Obviously still needing guidance and direction.) Honestly if a child is going to misbehave to that degree at that age, I don't know how much good whipping him is going to do? It seems to me that it should have been handled years before, at home. It makes things bad on everybody when it's not.

Having two step children, I've often stated that their fathers (yes still involved in their lives) have missed a few beatings. The kids think I'm joking but I don't laugh nor smile. I believe that spankings let the kids now that they've not just crossed over the line but completely ignored it.

I pray that I never have to spank my baby girl, aka THE STEELERS PRINCESS, but I also know that I can't allow her to dictate how the household is run. And when she does something that requires a spanking, I've got to do it (Lord knows my wife probably won't).

I think if we take the kids back to a day in age when physical discipline was ok (and don't get me wrong I'm not saying beat the crap out of our kids), it would send a new message that says BE RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for your actions. Heaven forbid America ever took that stance again.

floodcitygirl
03-22-2007, 10:32 AM
Having two step children, I've often stated that their fathers (yes still involved in their lives) have missed a few beatings. The kids think I'm joking but I don't laugh nor smile. I believe that spankings let the kids now that they've not just crossed over the line but completely ignored it.

I pray that I never have to spank my baby girl, aka THE STEELERS PRINCESS, but I also know that I can't allow her to dictate how the household is run. And when she does something that requires a spanking, I've got to do it (Lord knows my wife probably won't).

I think if we take the kids back to a day in age when physical discipline was ok (and don't get me wrong I'm not saying beat the crap out of our kids), it would send a new message that says BE RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for your actions. Heaven forbid America ever took that stance again.Believe me I understand how you feel about spanking your baby. You come to understand what is behind the saying, "this is gonna hurt me more than you." I came to understand that discipline wasn't about being harsh. I discipline them because I love them and want what's best for them. If it's done in a controlled way and applied to the "area that the Lord cushioned"....and they understand why...it can be one effective means.

At my 14 yr old's age the most effective thing I have found is taking away privileges. At this point it's more consequences for irresponsibility than it is disobedience. Maintaining a relationship and having my kids know that I love them unconditionally has taken care of alot of problems. :smile:

Suitanim
03-22-2007, 07:30 PM
ADHD is just this: Hyperactivity (which I was diagnosed with when I was kid...I was never put on meds, and turned out just fine).

BUT, with today's kids getting a steady shit diet of high fructose corn syrup combined with a sedentary lifestyle and TV as the prime influence, SOMETHING has to be the scapegoat, and you can't blame the parents, so we invent ADHD, and drug the kids up. It's cheap, easy, and everyone can sleep at night...

The problem is that there is no accountability anymore...that's a very bad path to head down...

Godfather
03-23-2007, 08:55 PM
Down here in Arkansas they still beat the crap out of us in high school. They would give you the choice of the whipping or to stay after school for a week. I always took the beating.


Now you cant even look at a kid with out somebody calling the aclu

I still hate the ACLU, 14 years later. I went to an inner-city public high school and we couldn't expel disruptive students thanks to them. The local NAACP didn't take those students' side, but the ACLU made it clear that they'd run up a legal bill the district couldn't afford if we tried to expel anyone.

Suitanim
03-23-2007, 09:05 PM
The ACLU is just super...if you break into a family's house and steal their stuff, and the owner shoots you, the ACLU will make sure that you get to keep all the stuff you stole, and make the family who owns the house pay for your hospital bill.