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BettisFan
03-27-2007, 07:44 PM
ok so i was reading wedosestellers2006 post and at the end it said "MY PRAYER FOR YA'LL IS THAT SOME DAY SOON YOU WILL TURN YOUR LIFE OVER TO JESUS CHRIST...
AMEN
ELVIS"

So after reading this i became extremely upset and spoke to someone else on the forums hometown girl who after i send her what i thought was offensive said this

"Remember - Jesus Christ was King of the Jews."

wow did that not make anything better now that is the worst

so here is the info guys


1) Jesus did not fulfill any major messianic obligations in Judaism. Since he was Jewish, therefore he is not the Messiah.

2) To worship a man as G-D is idolatry, the antithesis of your Bible

3) Jesus was a Rabbi, and during his times, Rabbi's had to be married to be ordained. Therefore, Jesus was married.

4) If Jesus is merciful, why would He make ppl burn in hell for eternity?

5) Arhceological evidence suggests that Jesus was not crucified

he is not our king and will never be

i am a jewish man and proud, i will an neither will any jew ever turn over our lives to jesus or any mortal human being.
So yea i really think religeon should be kept off the boards as in sigs and avatars it can just cause problems and i dotn think a fourm like this should have religeon involved it is the most arguable subject in history and i would hope u all agree.

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 07:51 PM
Oh yeah this is gonna go over well. Thanks for stirring up more religious "discussion" on a set of STEELERS FORUMS.

Someone just friggin shoot me.

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 07:56 PM
i am a jewish man and proud, i will an neither will any jew ever turn over our lives to jesus or any mortal human being.
.

:rolleyes: is this not you?
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u256/MBell1992/Photo76.jpg
me baby me

just put 'YAHWEH is GOD" in your sig and get even. i dont think anyone is forcing you to believe Jesus was immortal and rose.

SteelCzar76
03-27-2007, 07:57 PM
Oh yeah this is gonna go over well. Thanks for stirring up more religious "discussion" on a set of STEELERS FORUMS.

Someone just friggin shoot me.




Fair to say.

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 07:58 PM
i am a jewish man and proud,

Man? Not yet.

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 07:59 PM
???why would i put yahweh is g-d

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 08:00 PM
???why would i put yahweh is g-d

Not exactly a devout Jewish "Man" are you?:dang:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:01 PM
uh dude we dont call hashem yahweh ok thats the roman christian way of sayign his name, and u obliviosly dont know about my religeon because calling my g-d yahwea is sayign his name is vain

Jeremy
03-27-2007, 08:04 PM
Here we go again. This is why message boards are the worst place to be trying to spread your religious messages. For the record, I am firmly against any and all attempts to spread any religious messages through this, or any other, message board.

Leave that behind when you get on these boards, I have neither the time nor the tolerance for it.

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 08:04 PM
???why would i put yahweh is g-d:rolleyes: as a supposed "devout" follower of a faith you claim, i dont think you have much room to bitch and moan if you have to ask this question.

who knows, maybe the admin will change the rules to appease you, chief. :thumbsup:

floodcitygirl
03-27-2007, 08:04 PM
ok so i was reading wedosestellers2006 post and at the end it said "MY PRAYER FOR YA'LL IS THAT SOME DAY SOON YOU WILL TURN YOUR LIFE OVER TO JESUS CHRIST...
AMEN
ELVIS"

So after reading this i became extremely upset and spoke to someone else on the forums hometown girl who after i send her what i thought was offensive said this

"Remember - Jesus Christ was King of the Jews."

wow did that not make anything better now that is the worst

so here is the info guys


1) Jesus did not fulfill any major messianic obligations in Judaism. Since he was Jewish, therefore he is not the Messiah.

2) To worship a man as G-D is idolatry, the antithesis of your Bible

3) Jesus was a Rabbi, and during his times, Rabbi's had to be married to be ordained. Therefore, Jesus was married.

4) If Jesus is merciful, why would He make ppl burn in hell for eternity?

5) Arhceological evidence suggests that Jesus was not crucified

he is not our king and will never be

i am a jewish man and proud, i will an neither will any jew ever turn over our lives to jesus or any mortal human being.
So yea i really think religeon should be kept off the boards as in sigs and avatars it can just cause problems and i dotn think a fourm like this should have religeon involved it is the most arguable subject in history and i would hope u all agree.ParkerFan, I could counterpoint every one of the things you pointed out. I'll just leave it at, I have several Jewish friends who have fully accepted Jesus as Messiah. I also have several Jewish friends who have not, however they would not make the claims that you have here.

If you truly don't believe that you want to be involved in religious discussion on this forum, then why make this post???? And further, of what benefit is it to call someone out that you had a private conversation with??? Sounds controversial and argumentative to me.

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 08:06 PM
Here we go again. This is why message boards are the worst place to be trying to spread your religious messages. For the record, I am firmly against any and all attempts to spread any religious messages through this, or any other, message board.

Leave that behind when you get on these boards, I have neither the time nor the tolerance for it.i feel the same about retarded bunglefans, but i guess if they can spread their message here...

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 08:06 PM
You'll have to forgive me. I was drug through most of the Christian religions as a child. What I know most about religion is that I don't like it.

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 08:07 PM
Folks - this is the Locker Room - any topic within reason is welcomed. I see nothing at all wrong with free expression as long as the COC is not violated and members keep the discussion respectful.

We'll be keeping an eye on this thread. :eye:

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 08:07 PM
Here we go again. This is why message boards are the worst place to be trying to spread your religious messages. For the record, I am firmly against any and all attempts to spread any religious messages through this, or any other, message board.

Leave that behind when you get on these boards, I have neither the time nor the tolerance for it.

CAN I HAVE AN AMEN!!

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 08:08 PM
And for the record... It's not DEVOUT.... It's DEVOTE.

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:09 PM
ParkerFan, I could counterpoint every one of the things you pointed out. I'll just leave it at, I have several Jewish friends who have fully accepted Jesus as Messiah. I also have several Jewish friends who have not, however they would not make the claims that you have here.

If you truly don't believe that you want to be involved in religious discussion on this forum, then why make this post???? And further, of what benefit is it to call someone out that you had a private conversation with??? Sounds controversial and argumentative to me.

haha ok lol a few things your "jewish" firends that say they have accepted jesus as the mesiah are called "jews for jesus" they arent accepted as jews in the jewish community aroudn the world i am sorry so yea and also ok u can walk but now talk counter point them

Livinginthe past
03-27-2007, 08:10 PM
As far as I am concerned, and im pretty sure im in tune with the board owner, religious talk is fine as long as it isn't intruding upon the football discussion.

The lockerroom exists so we can discuss a wide range of subjects, not so we can start up threads telling people what they can and can't post.

Parkerfan - you've only been here a short while - try and show a little humility instead of trying to act like some type of forum enforcer - it really isn't your job to do that.

If you have a problem with a person or a post, you should report it..... as you did.

But when a mod tells you that the matter is dealt with - you should consider it done with.

Have a think about what a boring place the forum would be if people were allowed to veto stuff they didn't agree with.

So, by all means share your thoughts on the existence of god (or not as it maybe) just don't try to shape forum policy while you are at it.

Thanks

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:10 PM
:rolleyes: as a supposed "devout" follower of a faith you claim, i dont think you have much room to bitch and moan if you have to ask this question.

who knows, maybe the admin will change the rules to appease you, chief. :thumbsup:
i will say it again "uh dude we dont call hashem yahweh ok thats the roman christian way of sayign his name, and u obliviosly dont know about my religeon because calling my g-d yahwea is sayign his name is vain"

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 08:13 PM
Stop your crying Parker. If you don't like someone's avatar or sig just don't read it. Either that, or just ignore it. You sound like the friggin civil rights movement or something. This is AMERICA pal, where freedom means FREE. Some posts I read are offensive to me. I just click out of 'em and go on to something else, not cry and whine to everyone that my feelings have been hurt or that I have been offended and so and so shouldn't be allowed to offend me, blah, blah, blah.....

There's a simple solution..... and I know I'm coming across pretty harsh...... but if you don't like what you see, either don't look at it or leave and find another board!

I get so tired of hearing people piss and moan about how they've been 'offended' by someone or something, especially when it comes to the subject of religion.

Deal with it.

Right on the money, Lloyd! Thank you. :cheers:

floodcitygirl
03-27-2007, 08:17 PM
haha ok lol a few things your "jewish" firends that say they have accepted jesus as the mesiah are called "jews for jesus" they arent accepted as jews in the jewish community aroudn the world i am sorry so yea and also ok u can walk but now talk counter point themThis coming from the person that just said he DIDN'T want religious discussion here? I guess what you really meant is that you only want "CERTAIN" religious discussion to not be here. Sorry junior. This isn't my style.

BTW, I think you need to stop believing that you speak for the world's Jewish community. You really haven't walked the planet long enough. :wink02:

floodcitygirl
03-27-2007, 08:18 PM
Stop your crying Parker. If you don't like someone's avatar or sig just don't read it. Either that, or just ignore it. You sound like the friggin civil rights movement or something. This is AMERICA pal, where freedom means FREE. Some posts I read are offensive to me. I just click out of 'em and go on to something else, not cry and whine to everyone that my feelings have been hurt or that I have been offended and so and so shouldn't be allowed to offend me, blah, blah, blah.....

There's a simple solution..... and I know I'm coming across pretty harsh...... but if you don't like what you see, either don't look at it or leave and find another board!

I get so tired of hearing people piss and moan about how they've been 'offended' by someone or something, especially when it comes to the subject of religion.

Deal with it.I couldn't agree more! :jammin:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:22 PM
ok no matter my age i have gone to jewish school my school my life and devoted my life to jewish studies and had my bar mitzvah, i know more about my religeon than you will ever know ok and yea so u said u can counter point of strut your stuff do it

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:23 PM
Parker, I joined SF almost two months ago and have made some really nice friends. You just joined the other week and it seems for the most part all you have tried to do is make enemies. You really should watch how you come off and you would probably make friends here. I think that you enjoy the fight! :wantsome:

this is the only slightly angry discussion i ahve had on the boards ewith everythign else everyoen has been great.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-27-2007, 08:27 PM
ok so i was reading wedosestellers2006 post and at the end it said "MY PRAYER FOR YA'LL IS THAT SOME DAY SOON YOU WILL TURN YOUR LIFE OVER TO JESUS CHRIST...
AMEN
ELVIS"

So after reading this i became extremely upset and spoke to someone else on the forums hometown girl who after i send her what i thought was offensive said this

"Remember - Jesus Christ was King of the Jews."

wow did that not make anything better now that is the worst

so here is the info guys


1) Jesus did not fulfill any major messianic obligations in Judaism. Since he was Jewish, therefore he is not the Messiah.

2) To worship a man as G-D is idolatry, the antithesis of your Bible

3) Jesus was a Rabbi, and during his times, Rabbi's had to be married to be ordained. Therefore, Jesus was married.

4) If Jesus is merciful, why would He make ppl burn in hell for eternity?

5) Arhceological evidence suggests that Jesus was not crucified

he is not our king and will never be

i am a jewish man and proud, i will an neither will any jew ever turn over our lives to jesus or any mortal human being.
So yea i really think religeon should be kept off the boards as in sigs and avatars it can just cause problems and i dotn think a fourm like this should have religeon involved it is the most arguable subject in history and i would hope u all agree.


I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THIS IS APPROPRIATE FOR A STEELERS FORUM....
TALK FOOTBALL OR LEAVE....I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE.....NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE WHEN IT COMES TO RELIGIOUS MATTERS...NO ONE IS GOING TO AGREE ON THESE MATTERS.....AGAIN.......TALK FOOTBALL OR LEAVE

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 08:29 PM
:popcorn:

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 08:30 PM
I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THIS IS APPROPRIATE FOR A STEELERS FORUM....
TALK FOOTBALL OR LEAVE....I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE.....NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE WHEN IT COMES TO RELIGIOUS MATTERS...NO ONE IS GOING TO AGREE ON THESE MATTERS.....AGAIN.......TALK FOOTBALL OR LEAVE

May I remind you (and everyone else) that this is the Locker Room where football is usually not discussed?

Again - as long as the conversation is kept respectful, the thread stands.

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:31 PM
.....

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:33 PM
You should read ALL the posts before posting. #20 in particular.

(ummmm..... recipes are not Steeler Football..... and they offend me. See... I'm on a diet so I would appreciate it if you would please remove them from this board.)

nice

Mosca
03-27-2007, 08:35 PM
Hey, not a single one of my Christian friends here complained to me when I chose http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mosca/ay.gif for my avatar.

They don't complain about me being an atheist, I don't complain about them being theist. If someone wants to pray for my soul, well, I appreciate the thought behind the gesture. There's room enough on my sidelines for all of 'em.


Tom

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 08:38 PM
Hey, not a single one of my Christian friends here complained to me when I chose http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mosca/ay.gif?t=1175045544 for my avatar.

They don't complain about me being an atheist, I don't complain about them being theist. If someone wants to pray for my soul, well, I appreciate the thought behind the gesture. There's room enough on my sidelines for all of 'em.


Tom
well thats a funny pic though i saw that on facebook the other day

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-27-2007, 08:39 PM
May I remind you (and everyone else) that this is the Locker Room where football is usually not discussed?

Again - as long as the conversation is kept respectful, the thread stands.

ooopss....sorry did not realize that......carry on.......

With that said......I do believe that all jews.....(some have already started) research the philadelphia jewish community....will indeed accept jesus as their savior...
Just the way it is written.....

Preacher
03-27-2007, 08:40 PM
I have been very busy for a while, and haven't checked out all the posts. I just now came upon this one.

Let me take a couple seconds for a couple of comments.

1. Neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in Yahweh. That is a made up term. It took the four letters of the tetragrammaton... Y.... H.... W... H... and added the Hebrew pointing (vowel sounds) of the hebrew word, Elohim (which is the general term for God.. not the specific hebrew G/d) to create the English word Yahweh... and actually, it is Jehovah that the letters were originally placed into, because the German theologians started it... and the Y is pronounced as a J and teh W pronounced as a V in German.

However, Most Jews would NEVER even state Yahweh, as it comes to close the the tetragramaton. But when speaking with a Jewish person, Hashem is the better way to discuss G/D.

2. It would take way to long to go through all the fulfilled prophecies... and then discuss the 1st advent to the 2nd advent and its fulfilled prophecies. However, let me state that if anyone SERIOUSLY wants to look into these, PM me.

3. Being married has nothing to do with being a Rabbi. Being a Rabbi simply means you have been educated to the point you can make decisions based on you knowledge of Jewish Law...
A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/halakhah.htm) (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah. When a person has completed the necessary course of study, he is given a written document known as a semikhah, which confirms his authority to make such decisions. Please see http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm for the context of this quote.

4. The Roman method of execution for criminals was crucifixion. Period. Many secular scholars are in complete agreement on this fact.

5. You are right... It is wrong to worship a man as G/d So either Thousands of Jews chose to turn thier back on the Torah, or they recognized that Yeshua was the messiah, the I Am.

6. When this discussion is all over, we all have to make a decision. Do we chose to believe in faith that jesus was the messiah, the King of not only the Jews, but the entire world, or do we choose in faith not to. Either way, it is a step of faith.

I choose in faith to believe. And by the way, Jesus sends no one to hell. We make our own choice to break our relationship with God and send ourselves to hell by not making it right with God through the messiah.

Mosca
03-27-2007, 08:41 PM
Thanks... and the point is, the thought from our Christian friends is genuine, and human. Accept it for what it is. You don't have to change what you know to have friends who believe differently.

Tom

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-27-2007, 08:43 PM
I have been very busy for a while, and haven't checked out all the posts. I just now came upon this one.

Let me take a couple seconds for a couple of comments.

1. Neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in Yahweh. That is a made up term. It took the four letters of the tetragrammaton... Y.... H.... W... H... and added the Hebrew pointing (vowel sounds) of the hebrew word, Elohim (which is the general term for God.. not the specific hebrew G/d) to create the English word Yahweh... and actually, it is Jehovah that the letters were originally placed into, because the German theologians started it... and the Y is pronounced as a J and teh W pronounced as a V in German.

However, Most Jews would NEVER even state Yahweh, as it comes to close the the tetragramaton. But when speaking with a Jewish person, Hashem is the better way to discuss G/D.

2. It would take way to long to go through all the fulfilled prophecies... and then discuss the 1st advent to the 2nd advent and its fulfilled prophecies. However, let me state that if anyone SERIOUSLY wants to look into these, PM me.

3. Being married has nothing to do with being a Rabbi. Being a Rabbi simply means you have been educated to the point you can make decisions based on you knowledge of Jewish Law...
Please see http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm for the context of this quote.

4. The Roman method of execution for criminals was crucifixion. Period. Many secular scholars are in complete agreement on this fact.

5. You are right... It is wrong to worship a man as G/d So either Thousands of Jews chose to turn thier back on the Torah, or they recognized that Yeshua was the messiah, the I Am.

6. When this discussion is all over, we all have to make a decision. Do we chose to believe in faith that jesus was the messiah, the King of not only the Jews, but the entire world, or do we choose in faith not to. Either way, it is a step of faith.

I choose in faith to believe. And by the way, Jesus sends no one to hell. We make our own choice to break our relationship with God and send ourselves to hell by not making it right with God through the messiah.

as only a preacher could say.......well said.
I wish I understood more of this....but I do not.

SteelCzar76
03-27-2007, 08:51 PM
I have been very busy for a while, and haven't checked out all the posts. I just now came upon this one.

Let me take a couple seconds for a couple of comments.

1. Neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in Yahweh. That is a made up term. It took the four letters of the tetragrammaton... Y.... H.... W... H... and added the Hebrew pointing (vowel sounds) of the hebrew word, Elohim (which is the general term for God.. not the specific hebrew G/d) to create the English word Yahweh... and actually, it is Jehovah that the letters were originally placed into, because the German theologians started it... and the Y is pronounced as a J and teh W pronounced as a V in German.

However, Most Jews would NEVER even state Yahweh, as it comes to close the the tetragramaton. But when speaking with a Jewish person, Hashem is the better way to discuss G/D.

2. It would take way to long to go through all the fulfilled prophecies... and then discuss the 1st advent to the 2nd advent and its fulfilled prophecies. However, let me state that if anyone SERIOUSLY wants to look into these, PM me.

3. Being married has nothing to do with being a Rabbi. Being a Rabbi simply means you have been educated to the point you can make decisions based on you knowledge of Jewish Law...
Please see http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm for the context of this quote.

4. The Roman method of execution for criminals was crucifixion. Period. Many secular scholars are in complete agreement on this fact.

5. You are right... It is wrong to worship a man as G/d So either Thousands of Jews chose to turn thier back on the Torah, or they recognized that Yeshua was the messiah, the I Am.

6. When this discussion is all over, we all have to make a decision. Do we chose to believe in faith that jesus was the messiah, the King of not only the Jews, but the entire world, or do we choose in faith not to. Either way, it is a step of faith.

I choose in faith to believe. And by the way, Jesus sends no one to hell. We make our own choice to break our relationship with God and send ourselves to hell by not making it right with God through the messiah.




I have a question Padre. Do you consider God the omnipotent creator of ALL that exists and utterly infallible ?

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 08:54 PM
i will say it again "uh dude we dont call hashem yahweh ok thats the roman christian way of sayign his name, and u obliviosly dont know about my religeon because calling my g-d yahwea is sayign his name is vain"sorry but my keyboard doesnt have hebrew characters, nor chinese, or islamic.

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 08:56 PM
whats with the "g/d" ?

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:04 PM
I was just gettin' ready to ask the same thing.
I don't get it.

hold on....i'm gonna run on down there to the corner tavernacle and find out....:cya:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:05 PM
I have been very busy for a while, and haven't checked out all the posts. I just now came upon this one.

Let me take a couple seconds for a couple of comments.

1. Neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in Yahweh. That is a made up term. It took the four letters of the tetragrammaton... Y.... H.... W... H... and added the Hebrew pointing (vowel sounds) of the hebrew word, Elohim (which is the general term for God.. not the specific hebrew G/d) to create the English word Yahweh... and actually, it is Jehovah that the letters were originally placed into, because the German theologians started it... and the Y is pronounced as a J and teh W pronounced as a V in German.

However, Most Jews would NEVER even state Yahweh, as it comes to close the the tetragramaton. But when speaking with a Jewish person, Hashem is the better way to discuss G/D.

2. It would take way to long to go through all the fulfilled prophecies... and then discuss the 1st advent to the 2nd advent and its fulfilled prophecies. However, let me state that if anyone SERIOUSLY wants to look into these, PM me.

3. Being married has nothing to do with being a Rabbi. Being a Rabbi simply means you have been educated to the point you can make decisions based on you knowledge of Jewish Law...
Please see http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm for the context of this quote.

4. The Roman method of execution for criminals was crucifixion. Period. Many secular scholars are in complete agreement on this fact.

5. You are right... It is wrong to worship a man as G/d So either Thousands of Jews chose to turn thier back on the Torah, or they recognized that Yeshua was the messiah, the I Am.

6. When this discussion is all over, we all have to make a decision. Do we chose to believe in faith that jesus was the messiah, the King of not only the Jews, but the entire world, or do we choose in faith not to. Either way, it is a step of faith.

I choose in faith to believe. And by the way, Jesus sends no one to hell. We make our own choice to break our relationship with God and send ourselves to hell by not making it right with God through the messiah.

Jews obviously believe in the Tetragram, regardless of its origination ,but we won't say it. We say Hashem instead. So Tetragram is G-D name, but wereplace it w/ Hashem or Elohim, ect :thats to point one.

Jesus fulfilled a few minor mesianic obligations just like you and I have too. The major obligations as defined by Mainmonades, the major codifier of Jewish law, says there's 3 Major Obligations: Rebuild the Temple

Restore Jews to Yisroel

Restore Authentic Jewish Law

Look around: did Jesus do any of that?

Being maried has nothing to do w/ being a rabbi, but back then it defined whether or not u can be ordained. That's fact.

Romans excecuted criminals in a bunch of ways, not just crucifixion (notice u called jesus a criminal)

Xtians believe Jesus is G-d. The end. And not recognizing that magician who "walked across water" (aka: walked on stones) and "turned water into wine" (aka: food coloring) has nothing to do with Torah in fact, it's not turning away from Torah, it's fulfilling Torah where it says something like: Who subtracts or adds to My Commandments, he is not a prophet, And G-D utimatly decides where u go: heavon or hell, according to Xtianity. Why would He create hell in the first place? If Hell is the utmost of evil, then G-D is not merciful

ok? yea

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:06 PM
:pde: nobody s sober enough to get a reply...:hunch:

:rofl:

floodcitygirl
03-27-2007, 09:08 PM
ok no matter my age i have gone to jewish school my school my life and devoted my life to jewish studies and had my bar mitzvah, i know more about my religeon than you will ever know ok and yea so u said u can counter point of strut your stuff do itBecause of the way you choose to continue to demean people that don't share your opinion, I assumed that you had no real interest in understanding another person's point of view or faith. If I was wrong about that, then I would be more than happy to explain mine off the board by pm when I have time to write at length. As I said it isn't my style to argue point and counterpoint for the purpose of argument. Beyond that there is no doubt that Preacher could run circles around me, in proper text and terminology. However, my offer stands and if you are truly interested in another perspective, I can also recommend a couple of excellent books.

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:10 PM
Jews obviously believe in the Tetragram, regardless of its origination ,but we won't say it. We say Hashem instead. So Tetragram is G-D name, but wereplace it w/ Hashem or Elohim, ect :thats to point one.

Jesus fulfilled a few minor mesianic obligations just like you and I have too. The major obligations as defined by Mainmonades, the major codifier of Jewish law, says there's 3 Major Obligations: Rebuild the Temple

Restore Jews to Yisroel

Restore Authentic Jewish Law

Look around: did Jesus do any of that?

Being maried has nothing to do w/ being a rabbi, but back then it defined whether or not u can be ordained. That's fact.

Romans excecuted criminals in a bunch of ways, not just crucifixion (notice u called jesus a criminal)

Xtians believe Jesus is G-d. The end. And not recognizing that magician who "walked across water" (aka: walked on stones) and "turned water into wine" (aka: food coloring) has nothing to do with Torah in fact, it's not turning away from Torah, it's fulfilling Torah where it says something like: Who subtracts or adds to My Commandments, he is not a prophet, And G-D utimatly decides where u go: heavon or hell, according to Xtianity. Why would He create hell in the first place? If Hell is the utmost of evil, then G-D is not merciful

ok? yea

Originally Posted by Preacher
I have been very busy for a while, and haven't checked out all the posts. I just now came upon this one.

Let me take a couple seconds for a couple of comments.

1. Neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in Yahweh. That is a made up term. It took the four letters of the tetragrammaton... Y.... H.... W... H... and added the Hebrew pointing (vowel sounds) of the hebrew word, Elohim (which is the general term for God.. not the specific hebrew G/d) to create the English word Yahweh... and actually, it is Jehovah that the letters were originally placed into, because the German theologians started it... and the Y is pronounced as a J and teh W pronounced as a V in German.

However, Most Jews would NEVER even state Yahweh, as it comes to close the the tetragramaton. But when speaking with a Jewish person, Hashem is the better way to discuss G/D.

2. It would take way to long to go through all the fulfilled prophecies... and then discuss the 1st advent to the 2nd advent and its fulfilled prophecies. However, let me state that if anyone SERIOUSLY wants to look into these, PM me.

3. Being married has nothing to do with being a Rabbi. Being a Rabbi simply means you have been educated to the point you can make decisions based on you knowledge of Jewish Law...
Please see http://www.jewfaq.org/rabbi.htm for the context of this quote.

4. The Roman method of execution for criminals was crucifixion. Period. Many secular scholars are in complete agreement on this fact.

5. You are right... It is wrong to worship a man as G/d So either Thousands of Jews chose to turn thier back on the Torah, or they recognized that Yeshua was the messiah, the I Am.

6. When this discussion is all over, we all have to make a decision. Do we chose to believe in faith that jesus was the messiah, the King of not only the Jews, but the entire world, or do we choose in faith not to. Either way, it is a step of faith.

I choose in faith to believe. And by the way, Jesus sends no one to hell. We make our own choice to break our relationship with God and send ourselves to hell by not making it right with God through the messiah.

point goes to preacher.

PAMillerGrrl83
03-27-2007, 09:10 PM
I'm in shock from all of this.

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:12 PM
point goes to preacher.


:jammin: :dancing: go preacher :dancing: go preacher....:sofunny:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:15 PM
you are all on his side because you are in beilief with his faith but not jewish if you were jewish you would agree with me its ok guys but i destroyed all of his points

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:17 PM
you are all on his side because you are in beilief with his faith but not jewish if you were jewish you would agree with me its ok guys but i destroyed all of his points

i think even those of Jewish faith might be embarassed by your presentation. i side with preacher cause i know hes right and youre wrong.

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:19 PM
you are all on his side because you are in beilief with his faith but not jewish if you were jewish you would agree with me its ok guys but i destroyed all of his points

i'm an atheist....i just like to :stirthepot:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:19 PM
ok wow ur saying i am wrong beucase that is what religeon is sayign ur beilefs are wrogn or yours are! u again are saying that beacuase u are a Xian and i have shown four of my orthodox jewish friends including my rabbai this was all ini the last hour they all agree with me adn say my ideas are correct

PAMillerGrrl83
03-27-2007, 09:20 PM
I'm CHRISTian and yes I'm siding with Preacher only because your points make no sense.

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:23 PM
QUOTE=ParkerFan;232554]ok wow ur saying i am wrong beucase that is what religeon is sayign ur beilefs are wrogn or yours are! u again are saying that beacuase u are a Xian and i have shown four of my orthodox jewish friends including my rabbai this is the last hour they all agree with me[/QUOTE]
:jawdrop: he done went and pulled the rabbi card!!![:couch:

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 09:25 PM
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/images/smilies/jesus%20smilie.gif

http://www.pagan.com.ua/forum/images/smilies/zhyd.gif

http://www.bomberboys.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/suicide.gif

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:26 PM
Sh*t, try a different tavernuckle. I've gotta know 'cause they're still using that G-D thing.

g-d = god damn???:hunch:

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:27 PM
ok wow ur saying i am wrong beucase that is what religeon is sayign ur beilefs are wrogn or yours are! u again are saying that beacuase u are a Xian and i have shown four of my orthodox jewish friends including my rabbai this is the last hour they all agree with me well if they can truly understand what you are saying, then God must definitely be on their side.

well hell, if 4 friends and a rabbi agree with you i guess that trumps 19 men who will crash jets on american soil right?

so "this is the last hour" huh? is that some sort of divine prophesy from Yahweh? (sorry, i only speak what i read, and that is english)

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:29 PM
WHAT??? THE LAST HOUR??

Time to go. Gotta get down to the tavernuckle. PuppetMaster, you comin?
:cya:

LMAO:sofunny: way ahead of ya!!!

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:29 PM
what do u mea the last hour? ok what ever and to whoever asked about g-d lol no its just how jewish men who respect g-d call him we dont want to say his full name liek other religeoins that disrepect him

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:33 PM
what do u mea the last hour? ok what ever and to whoever asked about g-d lol no its just how jewish men who respect g-d call him we dont want to say his full name liek other religeoins that disrepect him

my momma used to always say "g-d brat".... so that meens i was gettin respect???:sofunny:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:33 PM
what do u mea the last hour? ok what ever and to whoever asked about g-d lol no its just how jewish men who respect g-d call him we dont want to say his full name liek other religeoins that disrepect him

uh no haha not ,bot funy that is waht it means

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 09:35 PM
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/images/smilies/jesus%20smilie.gif

http://www.pagan.com.ua/forum/images/smilies/zhyd.gif

http://www.bomberboys.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/suicide.gif


You are a very bad man. :sofunny: :wink02:

Father - a very well crafted post indeed. Kudos. :thumbsup:

We all have different beliefs and worship in different ways and forums (or choose not to worship). Though I was raised in the Catholic faith and attended Catholic school for 11 years (bypassed 6th grade), through the years I have reflected upon some of what was drilled into my head by the priests, penguins and my parents, and have over the years come to change my perspectives in some respects, but what has never changed is my love of and trust in the Lord.

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:35 PM
No, I don't think so. I was doing some research on google. I think it has some kind of hidden backward meaning. (sorta like if you spin a Led Zepplin album backwards.) If you say it really really fast thirty times it will actually sound like Jesus Saves.

i got out about 20 of em and got the hiccups.....:dang:

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:35 PM
what do u mea the last hour? ok what ever and to whoever asked about g-d lol no its just how jewish men who respect g-d call him we dont want to say his full name liek other religeoins that disrepect him

four of my orthodox jewish friends including my rabbai this is the last hour they all agree with me

do i have to convert to understand this crap? :poop: why dont you tell me what "u mea"

is that like urea? :monkey:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:37 PM
o lol i meant to say in the last hour

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:39 PM
:tap: me thinks tony likes to :stirthepot:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:39 PM
HUH?? I'm really confused now. You can't call God God? You've gotta call him G-d?? Using a dash to complete his name is more disrespectful in my opinion. That would be like you calling me L--df-4-fe. ( I wouldn't really know it was me you were talking to, so I probably wouldn't answer. Of course I probably won't answer anyhow, I'm heading out with the MasterofPuppets to the tavernuckle.) G'night.

if we write the full name its sayign his name in vain, its fine if you guys want to learn about my religion but dotn put it down

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 09:40 PM
G'night.

You get 50 slaps with the wet noodle, Lloyd. Don't you know? It's...........

G-night, g-dang it. :wink02:

PisnNapalm
03-27-2007, 09:41 PM
http://www.560sec.com/albums/944-LT1/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:42 PM
uh no haha not ,bot funy that is waht it meansoh. well in that case:

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MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:42 PM
:sofunny: :sofunny: :sofunny:

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Yes, she was respecting you. And here you thought you were getting in trouble! :dang:
i guess the belt that followed was to make me look more like jesus did on the cross...:jawdrop:

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:44 PM
HUH?? I'm really confused now. You can't call God God? You've gotta call him G-d?? Using a dash to complete his name is more disrespectful in my opinion. That would be like you calling me L--df-4-fe. ( I wouldn't really know it was me you were talking to, so I probably wouldn't answer. Of course I probably won't answer anyhow, I'm heading out with the MasterofPuppets to the tavernuckle.) G'night.:sofunny:

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
my momma used to always say "g-d brat".... so that meens i was gettin respect???
:sofunny: youz gettn mad 'spect g

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:48 PM
who does that comedy bit?

"i was 7 years old until i realized my name wasnt God Dammit.

God dammit, eat your dinner!

God dammit, pick up your room!"

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:49 PM
oh well some cool guy made it for me, OK EVERYONE LETS END THIS NOW IT WAS FUN BUT YOU KNOW WHAT LETS GET BACK TO WHY WERE ARE ALL UNITED HERE AS ONE NO MATTER RACE, RELIGOEN OR NATIONALITY... TO FIGHT ON FOR OUR STEELERS!!

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:49 PM
(besides..... you have a REALLY COOL avatar!!) :flap:


is 'just plain nasty" :sofunny:

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:49 PM
who does that comedy bit?

"i was 7 years old until i realized my name wasnt God Dammit.

God dammit, eat your dinner!

God dammit, pick up your room!"
i didn't do it,but i sure as hell lived it!!!:sofunny:

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:51 PM
oh well some cool guy made it for me, OK EVERYONE LETS END THIS NOW IT WAS FUN BUT YOU KNOW WHAT LETS GET BACK TO WHY WERE ARE ALL UNITED HERE AS ONE NO MATTER RACE, RELIGOEN OR NATIONALITY... TO FIGHT ON FOR OUR STEELERS!!
g-d waz jest gittin warmed up....:banging:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:53 PM
.........

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:54 PM
oh well some cool guy made it for me, OK EVERYONE LETS END THIS NOW IT WAS FUN BUT YOU KNOW WHAT LETS GET BACK TO WHY WERE ARE ALL UNITED HERE AS ONE NO MATTER RACE, RELIGOEN OR NATIONALITY... TO FIGHT ON FOR OUR STEELERS!!

spelling? - check
grammar?- check
punctuation? - well we wont go there but i believe the kid is catching on.

if we get rid of religious icons and beliefs on this board, we definitely HAVE to get rid of patriot helmets as avitars.

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 09:54 PM
can we close this thread please

no.

thats weak.

and lloydfan for life and mop are definitely on a roll.....

, or bagel....

, or pita bread.....,

or whatever is politically correct. :dang:

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 09:57 PM
:crying01: nooooooooo....please g-d nooooooo!!!!!....i got more material!!!:crying01:

BettisFan
03-27-2007, 09:57 PM
well how was ur day?

tony hipchest
03-27-2007, 10:02 PM
well how was ur day?do you type "ur" so you dont take "you are's" name in vain?

just wondering :bouncy:

HometownGal
03-27-2007, 10:02 PM
well how was ur day?

G-d go-d. H-w w-s yo-rs?

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 10:03 PM
:rofl: th & htg

MasterOfPuppets
03-27-2007, 10:11 PM
please come back par-er f-n...:checkit: .....me show respect :nw:

Preacher
03-27-2007, 11:36 PM
ok wow ur saying i am wrong beucase that is what religeon is sayign ur beilefs are wrogn or yours are! u again are saying that beacuase u are a Xian and i have shown four of my orthodox jewish friends including my rabbai this was all ini the last hour they all agree with me adn say my ideas are correct

ParkerFan...

Tell you what. I consider the discussion of Judiasm/Christianity to be of extreme importance.

I don't like to simply "argue." However, a serious and thoughtful inquiry into the similarities and differences, and into the claims of Jesus, I would definitely be willing to do.

Since it is difficult to do that on an open board, I am will to moving this into a private discussion between the two of us, provided that (this is a general list I give to anyone I have this discussion with, not you personally)

1. You can agree to have the discussion in good faith, not simply argue to argue.
2. We can remain respectful to each other's belief. Notice I type G/D. That is because I am careful to respect your beleif. I expect you to disagree with me, and me with you, but respectfully.

If your willing to agree with these terms, let us continue this discussion in a PM.

But for me, this is too important to discuss on an open board.

MACH1
03-27-2007, 11:57 PM
g-d not again.
god damn its a long read.....:chuckle:

SteelCzar76
03-28-2007, 12:08 AM
ParkerFan...

Tell you what. I consider the discussion of Judiasm/Christianity to be of extreme importance.

I don't like to simply "argue." However, a serious and thoughtful inquiry into the similarities and differences, and into the claims of Jesus, I would definitely be willing to do.

Since it is difficult to do that on an open board, I am will to moving this into a private discussion between the two of us, provided that (this is a general list I give to anyone I have this discussion with, not you personally)

1. You can agree to have the discussion in good faith, not simply argue to argue.
2. We can remain respectful to each other's belief. Notice I type G/D. That is because I am careful to respect your beleif. I expect you to disagree with me, and me with you, but respectfully.

If your willing to agree with these terms, let us continue this discussion in a PM.

But for me, this is too important to discuss on an open board.




Well said Padre,.....well said. It's just that in my opinion,.....the creator has been called many different names by many different tribes and nations throughout the history of mankind. (But yet remains one and the same entity)
And ultimately wouldn't this creator being so powerful as to devise and manifest ALL that exists,.... be above man's simple rationale and need to catagorize and or 'humanize' things?
Bottom line,......whom on this world born of flesh truely knows or could actually comprehend the true NAME and nature of such a creator,.... or what is the proper way to worship ? Be it Christian, Hebrew, Muslim, Buddist, taoists, Pagan, scientologists or whatever.
Bottom line,......personally i think the the 'Father' (as i like to call him) is laughing at all of you. Shaking his head saying,...."Your hearts are in the right place,....but you just don't get it"

Now with all due respect for you and your beliefs Padre,.....we can continue by P.M if you think that it is needed ? And let this thread continue it's descent into nonsense. LOL

tony hipchest
03-28-2007, 12:40 AM
i cant lump 2000-4000 years worth of proverbs in with 20-30 years of "nonsense" such as scientology.

i can atleast understand creationism and darwinism, and see where it cannot exclude a "God", nor where a "God" excludes it.

Preacher
03-28-2007, 12:40 AM
Well said Padre,.....well said. It's just that in my opinion,.....the creator has been called many different names by many different tribes and nations throughout the history of mankind. (But yet remains one and the same entity)
And ultimately wouldn't this creator being so powerful as to devise and manifest ALL that exists,.... be above man's simple rationale and need to catagorize and or 'humanize' things?
Bottom line,......whom on this world born of flesh truely knows or could actually comprehend the true NAME and nature of such a creator,.... or what is the proper way to worship ? Be it Christian, Hebrew, Muslim, Buddist, taoists, Pagan, scientologists or whatever.
Bottom line,......personally i think the the 'Father' (as i like to call him) is laughing at all of you. Shaking his head saying,...."Your hearts are in the right place,....but you just don't get it"

Now with all due respect for you and your beliefs Padre,.....we can continue by P.M if you think that it is needed ? And let this thread continue it's descent into nonsense. LOL

The reason I like to move these discussions into PM is because many people like to jump in, which is difficult when the discussion goes a hundred different directions.

But I would love to discuss this with you, as you seem to want to discuss in respect. I love doing that.

SteelCzar76
03-28-2007, 01:24 AM
i cant lump 2000-4000 years worth of proverbs in with 20-30 years of "nonsense" such as scientology.

i can atleast understand creationism and darwinism, and see where it cannot exclude a "God", nor where a "God" excludes it.


And you may be correct about scientology being "nonsense" Tone. (as i don't think it is a "religion" per se as much as it is 'psuedo psychology') My point was as such,...once again,....whom truely Knows ?
Take for example the fact that many of the beliefs that people clung dearly to thousands of years ago and were just as devoted to as modern man is to his,.....are now considered "Mythology" and or absurd 'magical tales'
Yet those whom follow organized doctrines of this time consider their 'magical tales' to be "Miracles" and or absolute truth.
And some would even argue that all organized religions are a form of 'control' that the those in power use to maintain such positions.
But the bottom line to me is,....worship however you deem is proper for you personally. But whose to say that one is "correct' per se and those whom disagree are heathens, or infidels, or not of God's "special chosen people".
I don't know about you,....but i'm not as arrogant or nieve to believe that i could even begin to fathom the force, being, entity,..... that created all things and would be absolutely above what WE would consider to be "good and evil" or "right" or "wrong". But more so,........neccessary.

X-Terminator
03-28-2007, 03:32 AM
who does that comedy bit?

"i was 7 years old until i realized my name wasnt God Dammit.

God dammit, eat your dinner!

God dammit, pick up your room!"

That was Bill Cosby's bit, and it's still funny after all these years :sofunny:

BettisFan
03-28-2007, 06:38 AM
ok preacher deal

ARKIESTEEL
03-28-2007, 06:46 AM
I onced chased down and killed a herd a sheep with a chainsaw in the name of the butterfly god known as Flapsalot . :jawdrop:


That was before I found beer.........:cheers:


Come on guys

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 07:31 AM
I onced chased down and killed a herd a sheep with a chainsaw in the name of the butterfly god known as Flapsalot . :jawdrop:


That was before I found beer.........:cheers:


Come on guys

Thats a load of rubbish, Arkie.

Everyone knows you started worshipping Flapsalot after you 'found' beer! :party:

Stainless Steel
03-28-2007, 07:53 AM
Whew! I finally got through all the posts just on this thread. What a thread! All the action and thrills of a roller coaster ride!

The problem with sharing anything on a board is that everyone has their minds already made up and are usually stuck on transmit. Very little listening, reading, and understanding the other viewpoints. That's especially true when religion is the topic.

Parkerfan, your original post was about a wedo post. The fact is, nobody can guarantee that you will not be offended by any post. If you are that easily offended, don't be a part of a forum and especially don't click on a general topic thread. I have a feeling that you weren't so much offended as much as you were trying to control another's post.

1) Jesus did not fulfill any major messianic obligations in Judaism. Since he was Jewish, therefore he is not the Messiah.Jesus DID fulfill many prophesies. You just chose to ignore them. If you would like to see them, let me know. Or better yet, google it.

2) To worship a man as G-D is idolatry, the antithesis of your BibleNot if Jesus is G-d in the flesh (Immanuel)

3) Jesus was a Rabbi, and during his times, Rabbi's had to be married to be ordained. Therefore, Jesus was married.Married or not, big deal. Marriage is not a sin. However, I see no evidence in scripture that says He was married.

4) If Jesus is merciful, why would He make ppl burn in hell for eternity?Because they will not turn to Him. We all have choices, you know.

5) Arhceological evidence suggests that Jesus was not crucifiedI would love to see the proof of this. Give me a link. In fact, if you could provide a link for any of your points, I'd love to see them.

The bottom line: I could have filed a complaint about each and every point you have made, complaining that it offended me. I chose not to because you are simply giving me your opinion. We all have them. Just because we differ doesn't mean we all have to be offended with each other's opinion. Wedo was giving his opinion. Please stop trying to squelch anyone that does not agree with you. It only shows your weakness.

I have to get ready for work. I'll check back tonight when I get off work, so y'all have fun.

tony hipchest
03-28-2007, 10:29 AM
has not noticed my new sig



..

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-28-2007, 11:04 AM
ok so i was reading wedosestellers2006 post and at the end it said "MY PRAYER FOR YA'LL IS THAT SOME DAY SOON YOU WILL TURN YOUR LIFE OVER TO JESUS CHRIST...
AMEN
ELVIS"

So after reading this i became extremely upset and spoke to someone else on the forums hometown girl who after i send her what i thought was offensive said this

"Remember - Jesus Christ was King of the Jews."

wow did that not make anything better now that is the worst

so here is the info guys


1) Jesus did not fulfill any major messianic obligations in Judaism. Since he was Jewish, therefore he is not the Messiah.

2) To worship a man as G-D is idolatry, the antithesis of your Bible

3) Jesus was a Rabbi, and during his times, Rabbi's had to be married to be ordained. Therefore, Jesus was married.

4) If Jesus is merciful, why would He make ppl burn in hell for eternity?

5) Arhceological evidence suggests that Jesus was not crucified

he is not our king and will never be

i am a jewish man and proud, i will an neither will any jew ever turn over our lives to jesus or any mortal human being.
So yea i really think religeon should be kept off the boards as in sigs and avatars it can just cause problems and i dotn think a fourm like this should have religeon involved it is the most arguable subject in history and i would hope u all agree.

I do not find it offensive for someone to promote their faith...I do find it offensive for one to crap on anothers faith.
If someone were to come on this board and point out very ill-supported "supposed inconsistancies" in the Jewish faith ..I would have your back and tell others to talk in love and not in hate...but I have to be honest and tell you that YOUR post IS offensive for those exact reasons !!!!
I could sit here all day and SHOW how messianic prophecy WAS fullfilled through Christ...but until anyone is willing to sit down and debate in love..it would be a lesson in futility. The original post is the belief of a specific individual and he has the right to believe that way...I am very surprised at the hypocrisy behind your saying how much you are offended when it is obvious to anyone of any faith that your post was more attacking than his.
Just my two cents.
(just as a side note...I would wait more than 10 days after joining the forum to try and change the dynamics here!!)

steelerbackr4life
03-28-2007, 11:09 AM
I think that faith no matter where that basis may start is overall a good thing that every human needs. As long as that faith is not misguided and used to hurt other human beings than who are any of us as mortals to judge some one elsebased solely on their beliefs?
No matter what faith or belief I think the most important belief of all is to just treat people the way you yourself would like to be treated. :wink02:

PisnNapalm
03-28-2007, 11:27 AM
I have faith that gravity will always work. Beyond that I have faith in very little.

ARKIESTEEL
03-28-2007, 11:33 AM
You all will bow at the feet of Flapsalot :toofunny:

floodcitygirl
03-28-2007, 11:41 AM
You all will bow at the feet of Flapsalot :toofunny:Again...I know it's your birthday, Arkie, but seriously...put down the bottle! :sofunny:

steelerbackr4life
03-28-2007, 11:47 AM
I've found that gravity tends to work a little better after you've been at the Tavernuckle all evening long. :alcohol:


Boxcar Joey could attest to that with his latest tail bone injury.

HometownGal
03-28-2007, 11:48 AM
You screwed up 6th grade was when they gave out all the secrets about it not being real..:flap:

I wo-ld s-y y-u a-e g-d ri-ht th-re, N-C. :wink02:

HometownGal
03-28-2007, 11:57 AM
very 'respectful' post there HTG! You get any more respectful and I won't be able to read it! :wink02:

As opposed to this one, I would say it is very respectful. :flap:

Stop your crying Parker. If you don't like someone's avatar or sig just don't read it. Either that, or just ignore it. You sound like the friggin civil rights movement or something. This is AMERICA pal, where freedom means FREE. Some posts I read are offensive to me. I just click out of 'em and go on to something else, not cry and whine to everyone that my feelings have been hurt or that I have been offended and so and so shouldn't be allowed to offend me, blah, blah, blah.....

There's a simple solution..... and I know I'm coming across pretty harsh...... but if you don't like what you see, either don't look at it or leave and find another board!

I get so tired of hearing people piss and moan about how they've been 'offended' by someone or something, especially when it comes to the subject of religion.

Deal with it.

steelerbackr4life
03-28-2007, 11:59 AM
Gotta love the candidness!

steelerbackr4life
03-28-2007, 12:46 PM
I th-nk y-o misu-der-tood wh-t I me-nt!! :sofunny:

If y-u use a-y more dash-s in y-or po-t I wo-'t be ab-e t- re-d it!! :flap:


You guys have to stop all the --s. Combined with the pain meds I took for my broken leg my focusing abilities are at a loss! :banging:

PisnNapalm
03-28-2007, 12:54 PM
...- -.-. .--- --.- ..--, ..--- ___--.

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 01:08 PM
...- -.-. .--- --.- ..--, ..--- ___--.

Morse code eh?

VCJQF.............

Interesting

BettisFan
03-28-2007, 04:36 PM
OK OK GUYS PREACHER AND I WILL TALK THIS OUT AND WE ARE JUST HAVING A RELIGEOUS CONVORSATION PRIVATLY SO SORRY IF EITHER I OR ANYOEN OFFENDED ANYOEN ON THE FORUMS BECUASE OF THIS THREAD...

MasterOfPuppets
03-28-2007, 04:42 PM
OK OK GUYS PREACHER AND I WILL TALK THIS OUT AND WE ARE JUST HAVING A RELIGEOUS CONVORSATION PRIVATLY SO SORRY IF EITHER I OR ANYOEN OFFENDED ANYOEN ON THE FORUMS BECUASE OF THIS THREAD...

YOUR SPELLING SOMETIMES OFFENDS ME.....:sofunny:

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 05:04 PM
It wouldn't hurt to check your post before you hit 'reply' button - its not so much the bad spelling by the numerous mis-types in every post.

It would make your posts easier on the eye.

You can lay off the caps lock too.

Thanks

BettisFan
03-28-2007, 05:19 PM
ok will sorry

touchdownward
03-28-2007, 05:24 PM
That was Bill Cosby's bit, and it's still funny after all these years :sofunny:

And ironic as it relates to this thread, Cosby's brother thought his name was Jesus Christ. :smile:

tony hipchest
03-28-2007, 05:24 PM
ok will sorryLITP's real name is "will"????? :toofunny:

hilarious!!!!!

hey will, wheres grace? lol j/k NM

MasterOfPuppets
03-28-2007, 05:34 PM
LITP's real name is "will"????? :toofunny:

hilarious!!!!!

hey will, wheres grace? lol j/k NM:huh: then who's niggel???

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 05:34 PM
LITP's real name is "will"????? :toofunny:

hilarious!!!!!

hey will, wheres grace? lol j/k NM

Hey my secret is out.

I always wondered about myself - i dress well and know how to dance :sofunny:

MasterOfPuppets
03-28-2007, 05:36 PM
Hey my secret is out.

I always wondered about myself - i dress well and know how to dance :sofunny:
i kinda thought you were a little light in the loafers....:sofunny:

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 05:36 PM
:huh: then who's niggel???

I admit it.

My real name is Will.

I just told everyone my name was 'niggel' to make myself look.......cool.

Shoulda known that not everyone can be as cool as a 'niggel' fo shizzle

MasterOfPuppets
03-28-2007, 05:48 PM
I admit it.

My real name is Will.

I just told everyone my name was 'niggel' to make myself look.......cool.

Shoulda known that not everyone can be as cool as a 'niggel' fo shizzle
:dang: ohhh...you meen ...."cool"... like the niggel on frazier....:thumbsup:

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 05:56 PM
:dang: ohhh...you meen ...."cool"... like the niggel on frazier....:thumbsup:

Thats Niles, but you have me almost spot on.

Niles is a little more masculine, but close enough :wink02:

tony hipchest
03-28-2007, 06:03 PM
Lives in a cabin in the woods, and has two dots in his sig.
has never seen a polar bear in a snowstorm.
.
.
.
.
.................................................. .................................
.
.
.
.
.
.

Stlrs4Life
03-28-2007, 07:38 PM
Stop your crying Parker. If you don't like someone's avatar or sig just don't read it. Either that, or just ignore it. You sound like the friggin civil rights movement or something. This is AMERICA pal, where freedom means FREE. Some posts I read are offensive to me. I just click out of 'em and go on to something else, not cry and whine to everyone that my feelings have been hurt or that I have been offended and so and so shouldn't be allowed to offend me, blah, blah, blah.....

There's a simple solution..... and I know I'm coming across pretty harsh...... but if you don't like what you see, either don't look at it or leave and find another board!

I get so tired of hearing people piss and moan about how they've been 'offended' by someone or something, especially when it comes to the subject of religion.

Deal with it.


Exactly!

Parkerfan, you can go to your UsercP and shut off sigs if they are that bad, or put people on ignore in your ignore list. It is freedom of religion, and free speech.

Stlrs4Life
03-28-2007, 08:02 PM
if we write the full name its sayign his name in vain, its fine if you guys want to learn about my religion but dotn put it down


Why not? You're putting mine down? Sounds to me like you are a Hypocrite.

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 08:09 PM
Why not? You're putting mine down? Sounds like you are a Hypocrite.

.....................................

Stlrs4Life
03-28-2007, 08:20 PM
Fixed it LITP. No, not all of them. I have alot of Jewish friends.

Livinginthe past
03-28-2007, 08:32 PM
Fixed it LITP. No, not all of them. I have alot of Jewish friends.

Good man.

I thought i'd jump in before someone misunderstood you - doesn't take much for all h_ll to break loose on a religion thread :sofunny:

BettisFan
03-28-2007, 08:54 PM
yea thanks livinginthepast

SteelShooter
03-28-2007, 09:17 PM
Stop your crying Parker. If you don't like someone's avatar or sig just don't read it. Either that, or just ignore it. You sound like the friggin civil rights movement or something. This is AMERICA pal, where freedom means FREE. Some posts I read are offensive to me. I just click out of 'em and go on to something else, not cry and whine to everyone that my feelings have been hurt or that I have been offended and so and so shouldn't be allowed to offend me, blah, blah, blah.....

There's a simple solution..... and I know I'm coming across pretty harsh...... but if you don't like what you see, either don't look at it or leave and find another board!

I get so tired of hearing people piss and moan about how they've been 'offended' by someone or something, especially when it comes to the subject of religion.

Deal with it.



Brother,

Lf4l, This is absolutely THE best post I have read in a very long time!

One of the many reasons we are over in Iraq is freedom to practice, or not practice, your own choice of religion....not to be dictated what, how, and when to worship.
Hell, I'll be making my way out there this coming fall.....for the 3rd time!

So, ParkerFan, your posts up til now have been entertaining and worthy of reading. But, to be completely frank, the ONLY thing I have found offensive in this thread is your opinions of what is right or wrong for someone else to believe.

You complained of someone elses avatar, yet you start this? Grow up young "man."

Am I a young pup flinging boastful, testosterone-filled bravado around? Regurgitating what I have heard others speak of? I think not. After 20 years of military service (and still going), I think I have seen dictatorship and suppression of basic human rights a time or two. And some of the other things I have seen; brother, you lead an extremely sheltered life and, you really do not want to know............

Livinginthe past
03-29-2007, 04:59 AM
is there a reason why you're giving h-ll so much respect?? :flap:

You should never forget your roots, right? :wink02:

Livinginthe past
03-29-2007, 04:59 AM
This is spot on for LITP aka Will....



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/pir8bill/248838b8ol1i9jxx.gif

Cool.

I do love Tom.

Just as a friend.

I'll trial it for a couple of days.

touchdownward
03-29-2007, 06:46 AM
The Tom Brady Valentines avatar is hilarious LITP. :sofunny:

BettisFan
03-29-2007, 07:49 AM
....ok have fun guys

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-29-2007, 08:00 AM
CAN WE CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE

Why do you want this closed it is such an interesting subject for everyone to be talking about.........
Great post by pretty much everyone.
How bout them steeers:coffee:

stlrtruck
03-29-2007, 08:36 AM
ok no matter my age i have gone to jewish school my school my life and devoted my life to jewish studies and had my bar mitzvah, i know more about my religeon than you will ever know ok and yea so u said u can counter point of strut your stuff do it

You should really be careful when making such statements. You never know what others have studied. Do I know a lot about the Jewish faith? No, I don't. But I do know this. Jewish people acknowledge the Christ was human. They believe more so that he was a prophet than the son of God.

Now as for your original post, the coming of the Messiah is predicted several times in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ fulfilled those prophesies. The problem is that the Jewish leaders of the time were expecting the coming Messiah to come out of the heavens and not from the immaculate conception.

And God has given us all the free choice to accept or not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour (for those who believe the Bible and in Christ). Jesus will have his second coming, and depending on one's belief about the rapture of the church and the 7 year tribulation, some will have the opportunity to accept the Lord as their saviour, while others will not.

Let me ask you a question. What would you do if the Jewish leaders of today, spoke out and stated the Jesus Christ was the Messiah?

Stainless Steel
03-29-2007, 10:03 AM
CAN WE CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE
It is interesting to see when some starts a thread by making a lot of blanket statements, complains about the moderator, and then wants it closed when he doesn't like the results.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2007, 12:16 PM
The Tom Brady Valentines avatar is hilarious LITP. :sofunny:

Thank NC - he set it up for me.

:cheer:

Livinginthe past
03-29-2007, 12:19 PM
CAN WE CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE

There is no real need to close this thread - sometimes these have a mind of their own and often go off in a new interesting direction.

You can either choose to respond to the people who are trying to debate with you, or you can just ignore them - its that simple.

If nothing else, you've learnt that telling people what they should and shouldn't be posting is not a good idea.

Relax.

Enjoy.

Stainless Steel
03-29-2007, 12:30 PM
If nothing else, you've learnt that telling people what they should and shouldn't be posting is not a good idea.
Well put.

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-29-2007, 01:07 PM
:blah: :dang: :blah: :dang: :coffee: :banging: :dang: :yawn: :banging: :yawn: :dang:

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
03-29-2007, 01:33 PM
okay.....this is why i said this thread should never be on this board....in any room.locker room blast furnace or what ever......
Interesting though.......very interesting....

However....when post like these appear on a sports oriented forum......I agree with LITP. that there is no reason for anyone to be upset. If they do not like the post they have the option to not respond
However, if you do respond, you should not allow your feeling to get hurt or your emotions to run wild just because someone does not agree.

stlrtruck
03-29-2007, 01:39 PM
Like I stated in another thread, if you think you're going to be offended and can't handle that, then don't open the thread OR when you realize it's going down a path you don't like - get out of the thread and know not to enter it again.

But I guess sometimes we are glutton for punishment!

Maidenarcher
03-29-2007, 09:35 PM
You know, I have only been a member on this site for about a year. However, I gotta say that things have really changed in this forum. I miss the days when people could have a good debate about interesting things and at the end of the post people still showed a little respect for each other....... I get to where I don't post a whole lot because their isn't a whole lot of intelligent conversation going on...It all seems like people are spreading their BS just to see if they can get someone wound up.....

It also seems that some people area little nastier when getting their point across. It is one thing to express your view passionately and with conviction, but entirely another to act like a damned idiot....It just seems a little adolescent.....

I guess I just miss the witty comments and the stimulating conversation.....And as for commenting about this particular forum, I can't even dignify it with a reply....I am too tired today and it won't be worth it.....I am sure anything LLT or Hometown Gal said is how I would feel about it anyway.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2007, 09:45 PM
You know, I have only been a member on this site for about a year. However, I gotta say that things have really changed in this forum. I miss the days when people could have a good debate about interesting things and at the end of the post people still showed a little respect for each other....... I get to where I don't post a whole lot because their isn't a whole lot of intelligent conversation going on...It all seems like people are spreading their BS just to see if they can get someone wound up.....

It also seems that some people area little nastier when getting their point across. It is one thing to express your view passionately and with conviction, but entirely another to act like a damned idiot....It just seems a little adolescent.....

I guess I just miss the witty comments and the stimulating conversation.....And as for commenting about this particular forum, I can't even dignify it with a reply....I am too tired today and it won't be worth it.....I am sure anything LLT or Hometown Gal said is how I would feel about it anyway.

With all due respect, the quality of this forum and its posts isn't some abstract theory - its something you can actually affect yourself.

If you'd like to see more conversations/debates on the things you find mentally stimulating then the answer is only a push of the 'New Thread' button away.

From what I remember, and i've been here awhile, we have always had debates where posters have gotten a little over emotional, maybe even a little nasty - it really isn't something that has just appeared recently.

Then again, we have had some superb debates where everyone was on their best behavior (one on racial issues and one on religion spring to mind).

The forum only works when everybody who wants to take something from it actually puts something back.

BettisFan
03-30-2007, 02:23 PM
well..anyone want to have a rave party!!??? ok fine :(

Stlrs4Life
03-30-2007, 10:11 PM
What is a rave party?

BettisFan
03-30-2007, 10:13 PM
like techno music and dancing untz unts untz unts ...nvm i was jk

Suitanim
04-01-2007, 03:11 PM
The best part about people who ABSOLUTELY know something for sure beyond the shadow of a doubt? They can never learn anything more about the subject...good thing that isn't the prevailing type of thought, or the World would still be flat.

HometownGal
04-01-2007, 05:04 PM
well..anyone want to have a rave party!!??? ok fine :(

No, not really, but would you settle for a little acting gig? Say - playing a pinata? :wink02:

SteelCzar76
04-01-2007, 05:45 PM
No, not really, but would you settle for a little acting gig? Say - playing a pinata? :wink02:




To a Rave song. (beat) "Untz, untz, untz, untz" :sofunny: :sofunny:

GBMelBlount
04-01-2007, 08:50 PM
There is no real need to close this thread - sometimes these have a mind of their own and often go off in a new interesting direction.

You can either choose to respond to the people who are trying to debate with you, or you can just ignore them - its that simple.

If nothing else, you've learnt that telling people what they should and shouldn't be posting is not a good idea.

Relax.

Enjoy.


My wife found God 30 years ago. I found JC and committed my life 6 weeks ago.....LITP found the Pat's and I still hope he goes to heaven! I am not perfect. Ask LITP about my combative posts. Anyway, Parkerfan, etc.is entitled to their opinion. But, as one of the earlier posters said. Let's keep this respectful, and before casting aspersions that are too negative and combative, just go to another thread. We are all Steelers friends. Let's keep it that way. I still love all of you as Steeler fans and respect LITP for having the courage, knowledge & respect to post on our site as a fellow contributor.

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 07:39 AM
The best part about people who ABSOLUTELY know something for sure beyond the shadow of a doubt? They can never learn anything more about the subject...good thing that isn't the prevailing type of thought, or the World would still be flat.
How about those who believe there is no God? I have seen some real absolutes in the atheistic crowd. Maybe they should open their minds a bit?

Mosca
04-02-2007, 08:05 AM
How about those who believe there is no God? I have seen some real absolutes in the atheistic crowd. Maybe they should open their minds a bit?

I'm open, if you can show me any evidence other than a book saying it is so. And don't think that in my 50+ years on this planet I haven't thought about this for a while.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 09:12 AM
I'm open, if you can show me any evidence...this is where it can get simplistic. a beautiful sunset, or the miracle of childbirth is enough for some.

and science still hasnt offered the evidence of how a bunch of inanimate objects such as atoms or molecules could come randomly together to form animate forms of life capable of self replication. its a matter of belief and not proof either way. to think the creation of life is just coincidence and happenstance seems too bizarre for many. something inside just tells them that cant be so.

to me it seems wierd that going all the way back through ancient history an abstract concept of a creator (of which there is no proof) seems much more prevalent than science (of which there is proof wherever you look). i think that type of brain function in what is essentially an animal is proof in and of itself. it just seems that the natural order of the coincidence and randomness of life and the "invention" (for lack of a better word) of cognitive thought, would be to gravitate to science as opposed to a god. but that clearly is not the case.

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 09:47 AM
I'm open, if you can show me any evidence other than a book saying it is so. And don't think that in my 50+ years on this planet I haven't thought about this for a while.
Where in the world can I start?!? I look at this world and see the fingerprint of God all over the place. I see design everywhere! To say it all got here by a series of mutations, or whatever the latest craze and phrase is, is ludicrous IMHO. A person just might as well praise the creative power of the DNA if you are going to deny the God factor.

I too have been far from the debate for years because I have a life, just like you. Let's keep it friendly because niether of us is an expert, more than likely. We'll leave the insults to the experts and so-called experts.

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 09:53 AM
BTW- Nice flying spaghetti monster. MMMmmm.... :bite:

For those who don't know what that is about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 10:11 AM
BTW- Nice flying spaghetti monster. MMMmmm.... :bite:

For those who don't know what that is about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
thanks. i been meaning to ask mosca about that cause ive never seen it before but it reminded me so much of the sistine chapel. (i have studied michaelangelos artwork extensively and recognized the background fresco work of the ceiling)

stlrtruck
04-02-2007, 10:26 AM
I'm open, if you can show me any evidence other than a book saying it is so. And don't think that in my 50+ years on this planet I haven't thought about this for a while.

Something to think about and maybe you'll take the few minutes it takes to draw this out.

1. Start with a blank piece of paper
2. Draw a circle on the paper
3. Pretend that all the knowledge in the world is within that circle
4. Shade in the amount that you think you know about the world (15-20-25%, maybe more)
5. Now in the remaining portion that is not shaded in, is it possible that God exists?

ARKIESTEEL
04-02-2007, 10:28 AM
I onced chased down and killed a herd a sheep with a chainsaw in the name of the butterfly god known as Flapsalot . :jawdrop:


That was before I found beer.........:cheers:


Come on guys


Still looking for some of you to join me in this new insect religon. Flapsalot loves you he told me so:help: :nw: :screwy: :shake01:

ARKIESTEEL
04-02-2007, 10:29 AM
Something to think about and maybe you'll take the few minutes it takes to draw this out.

1. Start with a blank piece of paper
2. Draw a circle on the paper
3. Pretend that all the knowledge in the world is within that circle
4. Shade in the amount that you think you know about the world (15-20-25%, maybe more)
5. Now in the remaining portion that is not shaded in, is it possible that God exists?

That be deep

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 10:36 AM
Still looking for some of you to join me in this new insect religon. Flapsalot loves you he told me so:help: :nw: :screwy: :shake01:
Waiting for a little reasonable conversation to start in that direction before spending any brain cells on that.

ARKIESTEEL
04-02-2007, 10:41 AM
Waiting for a little reasonable conversation to start in that direction before spending any brain cells on that.


ummm I might be trying to be silly maybe being silly on football forum that talks about Jesus more than wide outs is tricky but I try sorry to offend


















Flapsalot will get you for this

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 10:52 AM
ummm I might be trying to be silly maybe being silly on football forum that talks about Jesus more than wide outs is tricky but I try sorry to offend

This is a locker room forum: Talk about anything unrelated to the other forums. Please keep it clean! The rules still apply.Nothing tricky about it. The title told you it was about religion. Nothing silly or tricky about it.

BTW- no offense taken.

Elvis
04-02-2007, 12:04 PM
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving and the abominable, and the murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and All liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"
Galatians 5:21
" Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, , as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall Not Inherit The Kingdom Of God"
Luke 18:25
" For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"
Our God is a Merciful and Patient God... I for one am very glad of this for I have sinned daily and must repent of all my sins. If you Dont believe this then this prayer is for you..
God, our father in heaven I pray that you touch all these people including myself that we might have a better understanding of your word. I know as I am a God Believing man that you are the maker and the Holy One That All Should Worship, but there is some that just havent had the touch that I have had from a great and merciful God like yourself. Thank you God for sending your son to die on a rugged cross for my sins and theirs also. Thank you God for the Blood of Jesus.. that is truly what saves all of us of our sins and trespasses toward you. I know that I aint perfect and I will never be that way until the day I pass from this resting place that you have placed me in right now, cuz I know that my real home is in Heaven. Lord, I just pray that some how some way you will find a way to convict each heart here today to just accept you as their Lord and Savior.. Thanks for all the many blessings in my life and my loving family. Amen
Elvis

Mosca
04-02-2007, 12:24 PM
First, you all know, I'd never get insulting or disrespectful over anything.

Second, I'm busy today at work, so it looks like I won't be able to type at length until later.

But, explain to me why a sunset or childbirth has to have a god to be beautiful. Can't it just be beautiful?

In other words, show me why the world doesn't work without god. I won't even bother to get into asking to show me why there's a god who cares what we eat on certain days, or who we copulate with, or what we do on certain days.

And Wedo, I specifically request that the proof be given without quoting from a book.

Tom

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 12:38 PM
But, explain to me why a sunset or childbirth has to have a god to be beautiful. Can't it just be beautiful?it doesnt, and it is. like i said the non biblical proof was gonna be simplistic. my point being subjective miracles can be proof enough for many.

i mean this may sound petty and a bit obtuse, but my previous hinted that "god" has been around longer than "science". has science really done anything to show everything is coincidence and there is not a crative factor? it seems the concept of god has always been wired in our brains, long before our manipulation or understanding of science. it seems simple things like creating fire would be much easier to understand than such abstract thoughts of god.

now is this the type of proof that would hold up in a court of law. no. but it is the type of reasoning that strengthens peoples beliefs.

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 01:15 PM
it doesnt, and it is. like i said the non biblical proof was gonna be simplistic. my point being subjective miracles can be proof enough for many.

i mean this may sound petty and a bit obtuse, but my previous hinted that "god" has been around longer than "science". has science really done anything to show everything is coincidence and there is not a crative factor? it seems the concept of god has always been wired in our brains, long before our manipulation or understanding of science. it seems simple things like creating fire would be much easier to understand than such abstract thoughts of god.

now is this the type of proof that would hold up in a court of law. no. but it is the type of reasoning that strengthens peoples beliefs.

I think its fair to say that people have always attributed things they fail to understand to a higher being.

I would go as far as to say the fact that God is so unknowable, his motives so unfathomable, that to attribute events we don't understand to him is actually the simplest solution.

Faith, by its definition, is believing in something without proof.

Scientific reasoning is often a complicated, drawn out effort where mistakes are made along the way and where more information becomes available (through improved technology, for example) after extended periods of time.

Religion is alot simpler - the explanations are spelled out, and as there is absolutely no potential for positive proof, then there is also no chance of proof disproving the theory.

I believe that humans are naturally inquisitive animals - they seek solutions and knowledge - answers to any given situation.

Some people require science to give them those answers, others are quite happy to put things inot a religious context.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 01:28 PM
I think its fair to say that people have always attributed things they fail to understand to a higher being.

I would go as far as to say the fact that God is so unknowable, his motives so unfathomable, that to attribute events we don't understand to him is actually the simplest solution.

Faith, by its definition, is believing in something without proof.

Scientific reasoning is often a complicated, drawn out effort where mistakes are made along the way and where more information becomes available (through improved technology, for example) after extended periods of time.

Religion is alot simpler - the explanations are spelled out, and as there is absolutely no potential for positive proof, then there is also no chance of proof disproving the theory.

I believe that humans are naturally inquisitive animals - they seek solutions and knowledge - answers to any given situation.

Some people require science to give them those answers, others are quite happy to put things inot a religious context.i understand all of this but i think my point has been missed. theres archaelogical evidence going back 20,000+ years (almost 40,000 looking at stone fertility godesses) that shows humans were understanding one of the complex abstract thoughts as a "god". this is thousands of years before man could even understand the simplest of sciences such as growing a seed, cultivating farms, or domesticating animals.

im not a fundamentalist who believes the earth is only 5000 years old. i believe in science. i dont think its a coincidence that when God created man "in his image" it is when civilization began and knowledge, and the ability to create and manipulate their surroundings really began.

theres a dramatic shift in the evolutionary path that happened 5000 years ago in the heart of iraq

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 01:40 PM
i must add that i believe science is the simplest of answers but it doesnt give the answers to the most abstract questions. how is science ever gonna prove what existed before the big bang?

its the old "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there does it make a sound"?

it emits energy, for sure. but energy is not a noise, without ears to hear it. noise only exists in our brains. color does not exist without living eyes to see it. everything is actually nothing without life.

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-02-2007, 01:41 PM
First, you all know, I'd never get insulting or disrespectful over anything.

Second, I'm busy today at work, so it looks like I won't be able to type at length until later.

But, explain to me why a sunset or childbirth has to have a god to be beautiful. Can't it just be beautiful?

In other words, show me why the world doesn't work without god. I won't even bother to get into asking to show me why there's a god who cares what we eat on certain days, or who we copulate with, or what we do on certain days.

And Wedo, I specifically request that the proof be given without quoting from a book.

Tom

Mosca..the best way that I can explain my belief is by using the "scientific viewpoint" towards "proof" ...with the acknowledgement that what we are talking about was never meant to be a stone idol, something concrete and solid that would require no faith at all.

1) Sight...I see my Gods creation all around me...the ordered magnificence of nature...the healing answer to prayers...the peace in the face of fellow believers when they allow God to be in control.

2) Touch...I feel Gods presence in times of sorrow..times of weakness...and times of fear...I can feel his presence in my home just as physically as I can my wife or my children...and I can feel when he is not there.

3) Taste...I have tasted Gods mercy..his grace...and his salvation...all of which I will fully eat and drink of someday when I get home. I taste his displeasure..and his admonition when I decide to take the drivers seat and have things my way.

4) Hearing...I have heard Gods direction in my heart...heard his answer to my prayers..heard him tell me "Yes"..."No"...and "Wait". I have heard his voice in the form of conviction towards how I treat others and how I have fallen short or exceeded his expectations.

The nature of faith is that it is about allowing God to work though us...so we can only explain how that happens....I hope you have known some of us long enough to know that we are not just those who are "looking for a crutch"...or who "get caught up in emotional rapture". Throughout history Men & Women of incredible intellect..(and very intellegent people right here in this forum)...have sought "truth" and found it in Gods awakening in their souls...I cannot make an omnipotant God reveal Himself in any way than what He wishes...In virtually any faith that believes in Monotheism....God only reveals Himself to either 1) those who are proactive enough to be willing to "open the door" or 2) Those, who in his wisdom, He wants to use for His special purpose.

I hope that at least allows you to see where I am coming from and the "proof" that I have in my own life.

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 01:43 PM
i understand all of this but i think my point has been missed. theres archaelogical evidence going back 20,000+ years (almost 40,000 looking at stone fertility godesses) that shows humans were understanding one of the complex abstract thoughts as a "god". this is thousands of years before man could even understand the simplest of sciences such as growing a seed, cultivating farms, or domesticating animals.

im not a fundamentalist who believes the earth is only 5000 years old. i believe in science. i dont think its a coincidence that when God created man "in his image" it is when civilization began and knowledge, and the ability to create and manipulate their surroundings really began.

theres a dramatic shift in the evolutionary path that happened 5000 years ago in the heart of iraq

I would argue that a point of view that originated so long ago (and hasn't altered that much in its basic message) would tend to be the simplest explanation.

I don't think its human nature to go hunting for explanations when the most obvious is at hand.

Reasons why religion and idolisation are human nature?

I think we all gravitate toward building hierarchy's - we need to define our position in the world (and perhaps its purpose) by layering society around us - its the same with business, sports, human relationships.....

Most people need to believe there is a 'higher purpose' to our existence - maybe that has elements of insecurity or arrogance - whatever it is.... its certainly very human.

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-02-2007, 01:48 PM
I would argue that a point of view that originated so long ago (and hasn't altered that much in its basic message) would tend to be the simplest explanation.

I don't think its human nature to go hunting for explanations when the most obvious is at hand.

Reasons why religion and idolisation are human nature?

I think we all gravitate toward building hierarchy's - we need to define our position in the world (and perhaps its purpose) by layering society around us - its the same with business, sports, human relationships.....

Most people need to believe there is a 'higher purpose' to our existence - maybe that has elements of insecurity or arrogance - whatever it is.... its certainly very human.


I would argue that it is human nature to argue against God,...to not be accountable for our actions to an authority outside of man...to believe that we are the highest level of evolution would be more arrogant than to believe that God is in control and that we are his creation

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 01:54 PM
I would argue that it is human nature to argue against God,...to not be accountable for our actions to an authority outside of man...to believe that we are the highest level of evolution would be more arrogant than to believe that God is in control and that we are his creation

Hmmmm possibly.

I truly believe that if such a large % of people are willing to believe in something that has no definite proof then there must be a reason for it.

Believers will probably have us 2nd in the food chain behind God, non-believers more than likely right at the head of it.

Its also true that we are made in his own image is it not?

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Hmmmm possibly.

I truly believe that if such a large % of people are willing to believe in something that has no definite proof then there must be a reason for it.

Believers will probably have us 2nd in the food chain behind God, non-believers more than likely right at the head of it.

Its also true that we are made in his own image is it not?

yes...but the definition of "made in his image" is argueable....some would say that it means the ability to reason...others would say physical appearance.

HometownGal
04-02-2007, 01:59 PM
Mosca..the best way that I can explain my belief is by using the "scientific viewpoint" towards "proof" ...with the acknowledgement that what we are talking about was never meant to be a stone idol, something concrete and solid that would require no faith at all.

1) Sight...I see my Gods creation all around me...the ordered magnificence of nature...the healing answer to prayers...the peace in the face of fellow believers when they allow God to be in control.

2) Touch...I feel Gods presence in times of sorrow..times of weakness...and times of fear...I can feel his presence in my home just as physically as I can my wife or my children...and I can feel when he is not there.

3) Taste...I have tasted Gods mercy..his grace...and his salvation...all of which I will fully eat and drink of someday when I get home. I taste his displeasure..and his admonition when I decide to take the drivers seat and have things my way.

4) Hearing...I have heard Gods direction in my heart...heard his answer to my prayers..heard him tell me "Yes"..."No"...and "Wait". I have heard his voice in the form of conviction towards how I treat others and how I have fallen short or exceeded his expectations.

The nature of faith is that it is about allowing God to work though us...so we can only explain how that happens....I hope you have known some of us long enough to know that we are not just those who are "looking for a crutch"...or who "get caught up in emotional rapture". Throughout history Men & Women of incredible intellect..(and very intellegent people right here in this forum)...have sought "truth" and found it in Gods awakening in their souls...I cannot make an omnipotant God reveal Himself in any way than what He wishes...In virtually any faith that believes in Monotheism....God only reveals Himself to either 1) those who are proactive enough to be willing to "open the door" or 2) Those, who in his wisdom, He wants to use for His special purpose.

I hope that at least allows you to see where I am coming from and the "proof" that I have in my own life.


This is truly one of the BEST posts I've ever read on this forum. :cheers: Excellent, LLT - kudos and rep to you. :thumbsup:

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 02:01 PM
I would argue that a point of view that originated so long ago (and hasn't altered that much in its basic message) would tend to be the simplest explanation.

I don't think its human nature to go hunting for explanations when the most obvious is at hand.

Reasons why religion and idolisation are human nature?

I think we all gravitate toward building hierarchy's - we need to define our position in the world (and perhaps its purpose) by layering society around us - its the same with business, sports, human relationships.....

Most people need to believe there is a 'higher purpose' to our existence - maybe that has elements of insecurity or arrogance - whatever it is.... its certainly very human.then perhaps what you perceive to be the "simplest explanation" (which is really the most complex and abstract) is the mose reasonable and likely explanation. i dont think there is any scientific evidince to prove if or why most people need to believe there is a higher purpose. we are hardwired to do so. you could almost call it what science undeniably calls a natural occurence called "instinct". which takes me back to my point. going through ancient history, man has always instinctively known of a higher being. the gift (and to some, the torment) of knowledge came much, much later.

science is good, and it too is true. but it definitely isnt "all the answers". i see science and riligion as the "yin and the yang". trying to separate thim isnt helpful and can be destructive.

science is the how and religion is the why. neither can be proved, or disproved more than the other.

Mosca
04-02-2007, 02:26 PM
Friends, believe me, I don't think of anyone as looking for a crutch, or having got caught up in the rapture. I have many devout friends (heck I think ALL of them), and my wife goes to church 3 times a week.

But LLT, I hope you understand that when I read what you wrote, it means nothing to me. Not that it means nothing; it means nothing to me. I can't say those words and mean them. And understand, it's not a crisis of faith. I'm a happy guy. I think the world and existence are marvelous places, full of wonder. I love life, and I love the world and I love my family. But the entire concept, of a god... and of a god who cares personally about me, well, it's just alien. And it's not that I haven't had situations where people have told me that there must be angels looking out for me. I could tell you some stories that would make your hair stand on end. But for every one of those, there is another that DIDN'T happem. OK, I survived a cancer operation (last May); and it was found through sheer luck. But, why did I get the cancer to begin with? You can't have it both ways, if finding it was the work of angels, then was getting it the work of devils?

Again, I'm typing inbetween work, I gotta go now.


Tom

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-02-2007, 02:39 PM
Friends, believe me, I don't think of anyone as looking for a crutch, or having got caught up in the rapture. I have many devout friends (heck I think ALL of them), and my wife goes to church 3 times a week.

But LLT, I hope you understand that when I read what you wrote, it means nothing to me. Not that it means nothing; it means nothing to me. I can't say those words and mean them. And understand, it's not a crisis of faith. I'm a happy guy. I think the world and existence are marvelous places, full of wonder. I love life, and I love the world and I love my family. But the entire concept, of a god... and of a god who cares personally about me, well, it's just alien. And it's not that I haven't had situations where people have told me that there must be angels looking out for me. I could tell you some stories that would make your hair stand on end. But for every one of those, there is another that DIDN'T happem. OK, I survived a cancer operation (last May); and it was found through sheer luck. But, why did I get the cancer to begin with? You can't have it both ways, if finding it was the work of angels, then was getting it the work of devils?

Again, I'm typing inbetween work, I gotta go now.


Tom

Very honest and very insightful post...thank you Mosca...but may I present that possibly God allows both good and bad to happen in our lives....

Gold ore must be "cooked" at a certain temperature....too hot and it becomes hard & brittle ...to soft and it retains the impurities....But when brought to the correct temperature...all those impurities rise to the surface and a master goldsmith can rake all of them off..so that the end result is a beautiful..pure...product...in which the master can perfectly see himself in the reflection.

God allows us to go through certain tests and trials....not to much unless we should become hard & bitter...and not too little unless we should not learn a lesson ....but just enough that in learning lifes lessons..God can rake off all the impurities..and in the end be able to see his perfect reflection in us.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 02:50 PM
great analogy LLT. mosca brought up cancer. i believe its mans manipulation of science that has created cancer, just like it is mans manipulation of scioence that has created surgeons who can save lives and work miracles that wouldve been unheard of 150 years ago.

it is unfortunate in a case that a nuclear reactor melts down (chernobyl) and it is still indiscriminantly killing people to this day. i dont think God wants for those people to die. but then again i dont think God is gonna tell man not to use the knowledge they have obtained.

Mosca
04-02-2007, 04:30 PM
LLT,

See again, that analogy means nothing to me. It's pretty, but if there's no belief that there is a god there then the analogy is pointless. You might as well have quoted Jabberwocky.

I have no interest in trying to talk anyone out of belief (LOL, not that I think I could), I want people to be happy. But I also understand the point of the original post; hey, I'm happy too, just like this! I found my peace this way!

Now, that being said, I certainly understand what someone means when they offer me a blessing, and I accept it in the spirit that it is given.

I've been around this block quite a number of times, and I'm perfectly fine with the world being as amazing and wonderful as it is without any higher sentient being having a hand in its existence.

And I intentionally have kept on the concept of god, not religion. I have also tried to avoid the concept of an individual god who cares about people individually, but that seems to be irrevocably part of the discussion every time. Which is OK, but it makes the entire concept even more fantastic and unbelievable, to me.


Tom

Mosca
04-02-2007, 05:38 PM
Wow, talk about finding something right to the point; I was surfing CNN and got directed to Time.com, and I found this on the front page re: the debates between Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Collins (The Language of God). these are the words of the author, Michael Lemonick.


In listening to them, I realized something that had only tickled at the fringes of my consciousness when I read the debate. And that is that, since both men are scientists, the whole disagreement boils down to a very simple question, which is embodied in Carl Sagan's famous dictum that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For Dawkins (and I'll admit, for me as well), the claim that there's an omnipotent, supernatural, invisible being that knows what I'm thinking and can perform miracles is absolutely extraordinary. You can't disprove it (which is why I'm not an atheist)—but it's
way more extreme than the claim that, say, aliens crashed at Roswell. So for Dawkins and me, you'd better come up with some pretty extraordinary evidence to convince me.

But it's clear listening to Collins that he doesn't see it as an extraordinary claim at all. And once you posit a God—based either on your own personal experience of something or on your parents' instruction—then all the rest, including miracles and noticing tiny sparrows falling from nests and so on—is pretty easy to swallow.

That, it seems to me, is the fundamental disconnect between the two camps—and I don't really see how it can be bridged.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 05:49 PM
Wow, talk about finding something right to the point; I was surfing CNN and got directed to Time.com, and I found this on the front page re: the debates between Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Collins (The Language of God). these are the words of the author, Michael Lemonick.see mosca, god is talking to you! :sofunny:

its an interesting debate and i can accept the athiests point of view based on a lack of faith/belief, just like athiests can accept the creationism view as a blind faith, wishful thinking, etc point of view. what i dont understand is an athiests point of view being based solely on scientific discovery. by no means am i a scientist who has mastered quantum physics and such, but nothing i have seen in science cannot really prove or disprove the existance of a supreme force. to search for an answer either way seems to be a fruitless effort.

if science always follows a strict set of unchangeable rules, how come humans dont? if we were a scientific creation it makes sense that they would. do atoms and molecules possess free will, in the same way that humans do?

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 05:50 PM
That is so spot on.

Regardless of which camp you find yourself in the actuality of God is either the most outrageous fantastic theory or something you barely even question.

Thats why (as we all know) there will be no swaying of opinion on this matter - no matter how well presented the argument.

ps I am definitely in the Agnostic camp - there is no evidence to suggest the definite presense of God, neither is their overwhelming evidence that such a being does not exist.

If someone claimed that an Intergalactic donut was controlling our every move from just outside the known universe I want some pretty heavy duty proof - just by saying that there is no evidence to the contrary does not prove its existence.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 05:55 PM
That is so spot on.

Regardless of which camp you find yourself in the actuality of God is either the most outrageous fantastic theory or something you barely even question.

Thats why (as we all know) there will be no swaying of opinion on this matter - no matter how well presented the argument.not so, i have questionned it many times, but just have not found the answers athiests possess. why do athiests keep this secret of truth so close. isnt the answer something they would want to share?

i mean is it the science or just their own personal lack of belief?

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 06:02 PM
definitely not trying to be argumentative with such a serious subject but it could be as simple as "something" making more sense than "nothing".

"no sense makes sense"

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/chuckmanson.jpg

(not that this will help my argument, which really isnt an argument, but it is an interesting philosophical quote)

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 06:05 PM
not so, i have questionned it many times, but just have not found the answers athiests possess. why do athiests keep this secret of truth so close. isnt the answer something they would want to share?

i mean is it the science or just their own personal lack of belief?

Ok, I wouldn't include the believers on this thread as non-questioners - you wouldnt be able to debate your side of the argument so well if you didn't send quite a bit of time thinking about it.

I am probably nearer to being an Athiest than a Believer, but dont regard myself as one - I don't really rule many things out - that include all types of supernatural phenomona.

The way I see it, somone who claims something to exist has the burden of proof to argue their point successfully.

Its alot easier to list the things that don't exist.

Livinginthe past
04-02-2007, 06:06 PM
definitely not trying to be argumentative with such a serious subject but it could be as simple as "something" making more sense than "nothing".

"no sense makes sense"

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/chuckmanson.jpg

(not that this will help my argument, which really isnt an argument, but it is an interesting philosophical quote)

I happen to agree with the existence of 'something' over the possibility of 'nothing' - what that 'something' is I have no idea and probably never will.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 06:12 PM
The way I see it, somone who claims something to exist has the burden of proof to argue their point successfully.

Its alot easier to list the things that don't exist.how do you prove "instinct" then, other than observed behavior? instinctive traits are widely accepted by the biological and scientific community, but how can you trully prove it exists?

like i said earlier, the existance of a god seems to be an inherent trait of man since the dawn of time(as man knows it)... therefore it seems the burden of proof would be on the other side.

Suitanim
04-02-2007, 06:55 PM
The only thing I'm absolutely positively 100% sure I'm right about is that I'm not absolutely positively 100% sure about anything...

But I also hear there are no atheists in foxholes...

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 07:27 PM
But I also hear there are no atheists in foxholes...i guess all questions from those who believe in something rather than nothing, are just passed off as rhetorical questions. im all for a learning session, and trying to understand others points of views but its hard when the other side doesnt bother expanding on those views. i always enter this discussion with an open mind. in the past mosca cited an article examining the physical properties of a thought that travels through the brain which i found to be one of the most deep and intelligent articles i have read in a while. science has definitely passed me up since i have been out of school.

believers are always asked to offer proof or an explanation for something and willingly offer it up. yet i have asked about a dozen questions in this thread just to try to understand the "other side" (with a complete open mind). those questions have been ignored i guess.

my position is not concrete but until anyone can provide anything solid, there is no other option.

seriously... i know i cant prove "god". i readily admit that. how does one prove "instinct"?

if instinct ensures a male animal will try to mate with a female animal in the scientific world, how come the same rules of science dont apply to humans?

how does a bird know to kick its young out of its nest? why does it not keep the hatchling that cant fly in the nest for a few more days?

if we are just an animal, how come we show "free will" where animals dont?

where is science to provide these answers? where are the non believers who know?

Mosca
04-02-2007, 08:38 PM
not so, i have questionned it many times, but just have not found the answers athiests possess. why do athiests keep this secret of truth so close. isnt the answer something they would want to share?

i mean is it the science or just their own personal lack of belief?

I believe in what I "see", and I accept explanations for what is experimentally verifiable. I quote "see" because I don't mean vision, I mean see like understand but understand isn't quite the word.

It's not some secret that is held close. The same information is available for anyone.

Again, I'm not interested in trying to talk anyone out of their faith. I like faith. For other people. It fulfills them, and that's cool. It does nothing for me.

Otherwise, I don't need an explanation of the origins of existence. It's enough for me to realize that we are limited in our understanding by our senses and by our ability. If there are things beyond that that are unknowable, so be it; I see no sense in postulating the existence of a being that completes the explanation. I prefer to say that the answer is unknowable and in any event irrelevant.

So now explain to me why this ultimate creator cares what we eat relative to the position of the earth and sun (ie, meat on Fridays during Lent), where we are at certain times relative to the position of the sun (ie, keeping the Sabbath holy), and why it matters who we copulate with. See, there is so much more to Christianity beyond god/no god. It's just too much, especially the Bible. Why are some parts etched in stone, and others discarded so easily? And then why are the explanations for that so... facile, so convenient? I understand that these things make sense within the belief system; but if you simply discard it all and start from scratch with, "OK, why?", then it all seems so silly. To me.

Hey, I gotta go watch the game. I'm busy tomorrow at work too, I'll catch up tomorrow evening.


Tom

SteelCzar76
04-02-2007, 08:39 PM
It appears that this thread has taken an enlightened course since it's inception. Perhaps the boy not having any idea of it all,.... was lead to cause a disscussion such as the one this one has become ?

As for myself,....i will not 'beat a dead horse'. But i will say this,...perhaps Science itself is one of MANY different manifestions of what man would consider the 'spiritual' ?

Meaning all things in this physical realm of existence are 'neccessary' for it to even exist as we could comprehend it at this level. (Ie: there simply must be light for Darkness, Atheists for zealouts, life for death, warmth for cold and so on.)

Perhaps our greatest failure and or misunderstanding so to speak. Would be to try and seperate any parts from that which is ultimately one 'whole' ?

Elvis
04-02-2007, 08:54 PM
There has been so many things that have been told would happen that has already happened. The birth of Jesus and how it would happen and where is proof enough for me brothers/sisters. The way it was said that he would die and rise again in 3 days.. Is that Not proof enough? John the baptist said there is one coming that is greater than him, that was Jesus Christ, God in the flesh. I will be back with sum scriptures a little later. Meanwhile I will pray you Unbelievers... May God be with you all and I hope that I can be of help to someone seeing the truth.
God Bless
Elvis

BettisFan
04-02-2007, 08:58 PM
oh come on wedosteelers its enough

Mosca
04-02-2007, 09:16 PM
oh come on wedosteelers its enough

Whoa, friend. His expression is genuine. This is why he believes as he does. It may not work for you or I, but be happy that it fulfills him.


Tom

BettisFan
04-02-2007, 09:24 PM
Whoa, friend. His expression is genuine. This is why he believes as he does. It may not work for you or I, but be happy that it fulfills him.


Tom

but he keeps going on and on and on i stopped a while ago i mean its ok but comeon

Elvis
04-02-2007, 09:27 PM
Ok all, if you want to believe what science says and that we just got here by a strike of lightning or some that think that we came from monkeys, then you have the right to believe that. But I will Never Believe that I was once in the form of a monkey or just came from a bolt of lightning!! Where is their proof? They have None!!
I am not going to preach because I am not a preacher but I honestly cannot believe that the Preacher here in our forrum family hasnt been in here. Everyone has different beliefs, you can worship Budah if you want or believe in the Jahovah wittness's way of thinking if you wish, but there is only ONE True God and if you are not with him, then your Against Him, and the day will come when it will be too late. Most people/Atheist when they get hurt or injured severely the very first one that they call 0n is " Oh...God... Please Help Me!!" Just wait and see, if your an athiest then your " In my opinion are in for a BIG suprise".. Alot of good people are gonna be so mistaken and I am sure there alot of good people that think they are ready for the Lord that are gonna be in trouble as well. There is alot of church going people that think that they are saved, but are gonna be in a lot of trouble. I AM Not Perfect... never said I was... I sin every day just like you but I am forgiven when I call on God to forgive my sins, because I have accepted Jesus into my heart. Pastors sin every day, if one says he doesnt then the BIBLE says that the truth is not in him/her.
Colossians 1:15-19 (The Exaltation of Christ)
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"
"For by him were all things created, that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisisble, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities, or powers all things created by him, and for him.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
"For it please the father that in him should all fulness dwell"
May God Be With You All and I just hope you dont pass before it is too Late... God Loves The Sinner... Not The Sin!!
Elvis

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 09:29 PM
I believe in what I "see", and I accept explanations for what is experimentally verifiable. I quote "see" because I don't mean vision, I mean see like understand but understand isn't quite the word.

It's not some secret that is held close. The same information is available for anyone. then atleast point me in the right direction for the answers ive asked. i dont shy away from knowledge.

Again, I'm not interested in trying to talk anyone out of their faith. I like faith. For other people. It fulfills them, and that's cool. It does nothing for me.

Otherwise, I don't need an explanation of the origins of existence. then wy even bother asking for proof (or even a reasonable expanation from those who believe what they do)? It's enough for me to realize that we are limited in our understanding by our senses and by our ability. If there are things beyond that that are unknowable, so be it; I see no sense in postulating the existence of a being that completes the explanation. I prefer to say that the answer is unknowable and in any event irrelevant.

So now explain to me why this ultimate creator cares what we eat relative to the position of the earth and sun (ie, meat on Fridays during Lent), where we are at certain times relative to the position of the sun (ie, keeping the Sabbath holy), and why it matters who we copulate with. See, there is so much more to Christianity beyond god/no god. It's just too much, especially the Bible. Why are some parts etched in stone, and others discarded so easily? And then why are the explanations for that so... facile, so convenient? I understand that these things make sense within the belief system; but if you simply discard it all and start from scratch with, "OK, why?", then it all seems so silly. To me.

Hey, I gotta go watch the game. I'm busy tomorrow at work too, I'll catch up tomorrow evening.


Tomi dont understand the point of a coversation composed of rhetorical questions, and questions answered with questions where the answers are immediately disregarded. i entered this conversation with you, cause i respect your knowlegde, intelligence, and insight, and figured you might offer a viewpoint that i havent heard, and was possibly enlightening. i have answers for all the questions you asked in the 2nd part of your post. i have searched and thought about them for the better part of my life.

but then this whle conversation is an exercise in futility, right? anyways, when you get around to it, i anticipate, and would definitely respect, some of the insight you can provide to some of the questions i asked. while i dont expect my viepoints to be immediately changed by some epiphany, im always open to an answer (or atleast an educated viewpoint) that i have not yet heard.

Elvis
04-02-2007, 09:30 PM
Whoa, friend. His expression is genuine. This is why he believes as he does. It may not work for you or I, but be happy that it fulfills him.


Tom

but he keeps going on and on and on i stopped a while ago i mean its ok but comeon
If this subject bothers you sooooo much... then GET OUT!!! and Dont Come back to this thread!!! I didnt start this thread ..... ParkerPunk.. your the one that started this thread aint ya?.... then Dont start something you Cant finish....
I will still pray for your soul, or I would be committing a sin over you!! and God knows I dont want that...

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 09:44 PM
If this subject bothers you sooooo much... then GET OUT!!! and Dont Come back to this thread!!! I didnt start this thread ..... ParkerPunk.. your the one that started this thread aint ya?.... then Dont start something you Cant finish....
I will still pray for your soul, or I would be committing a sin over you!! and God knows I dont want that...very odd to see one praying for ones soul in this thread, calling another a punk (for what was a rather rude comment so i understand)

im just commenting on the strange dichotomy.

Colossians 1:15-19 (The Exaltation of Christ)
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"
"For by him were all things created, that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisisble, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities, or powers all things created by him, and for him.
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
"For it please the father that in him should all fulness dwell"


"the 1stborn of every creature" or life in general. its biblicap phrases like these that lead me to believe all life is valuable, and was the essense of our creation. God is the essense of our being. i have no problem with the thought that we evolved from monkeys (primates to be exact) or any form of life for that matter.

GBMelBlount
04-02-2007, 10:00 PM
very odd to see one praying for ones soul in this thread, calling another a punk (for what was a rather rude comment so i understand)

im just commenting on the strange dichotomy.



"the 1stborn of every creature" or life in general. its biblicap phrases like these that lead me to believe all life is valuable, and was the essense of our creation. God is the essense of our being. i have no problem with the thought that we evolved from monkeys (primates to be exact) or any form of life for that matter.

Sorry Tony, didn't read the 50,000 post ... huge...thread, do you believe in GOD? I'm guessing from the "God is the essence.. that you do.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 10:18 PM
Sorry Tony, didn't read the 50,000 post ... huge...thread, do you believe in GOD? I'm guessing from the "God is the essence.. that you do.nothing in science or religion says that if 1 species evolves from the other, that the other has to go extinct. sharks and scorpions have been around for millions of years. humans and primates are from different branches of the evolutionary tree, and even though we share 99% of the same genetic makeup of chimps, we still cannot breed, as opposed to dogs who are of the same branch. despite canines differences in physical appearance, they all are still biologically capable of reproducing.

despite my faith in science and darwinism, i definitely believe in god. science and religion are like 2 different languages trying to say the same thing. like i said earlier, (to me) 1 explains the "how" and the other explains the "why".

GBMelBlount
04-02-2007, 10:42 PM
nothing in science or religion says that if 1 species evolves from the other, that the other has to go extinct. sharks and scorpions have been around for millions of years. humans and primates are from different branches of the evolutionary tree, and even though we share 99% of the same genetic makeup of chimps, we still cannot breed, as opposed to dogs who are of the same branch. despite canines differences in physical appearance, they all are still biologically capable of reproducing.

despite my faith in science and darwinism, i definitely believe in god. science and religion are like 2 different languages trying to say the same thing. like i said earlier, (to me) 1 explains the "how" and the other explains the "why".

Tony, I wrote a post to you and erased it after I wrote it. I have gone to church for 43 years and never believed because I couldn't rationalize God. I am very analytical (though obviously a moron on SF crap) Anyway, what made me a recent believer is the realization that how could something so complex evolve from a single cell organism as intelligent? scientists say, but if we evolved from monkeys / apes, what the hell happened to everything in between and why can't we mate with our ancestors, the apes? What is on this earth is too amazing to be random. However, it is intersting that there are atheists that are great people! and supposed christians I see in church that are self righteous, judgmental, and arrogant a-holes. They say the path to heaven is NARROW! Apparently, those that believe aren't perfect, just forgiven! Being a disciple is a constant work in progress to be a better person and more christlike ( according to my religion ) I am far from perfect as you can see from my posts, but I am working to be better in his eyes every day.

Stainless Steel
04-02-2007, 10:57 PM
I have seen my share of unchristian like Christians too. However, I have seen some wonderful people also. They have lived their faith. They have been faithful to live out their faith in practical, loving ways. Don't let the "bad apples" spoil the truth of the gospel.

tony hipchest
04-02-2007, 11:23 PM
Tony, I wrote a post to you and erased it after I wrote it. I have gone to church for 43 years and never believed because I couldn't rationalize God. I am very analytical (though obviously a moron on SF crap) Anyway, what made me a recent believer is the realization that how could something so complex evolve from a single cell organism as intelligent? scientists say, but if we evolved from monkeys / apes, what the hell happened to everything in between and why can't we mate with our ancestors, the apes? What is on this earth is too amazing to be random. However, it is intersting that there are atheists that are great people! and supposed christians I see in church that are self righteous, judgmental, and arrogant a-holes. They say the path to heaven is NARROW! Apparently, those that believe aren't perfect, just forgiven! Being a disciple is a constant work in progress to be a better person and more christlike ( according to my religion ) I am far from perfect as you can see from my posts, but I am working to be better in his eyes every day.i can remember being taught about both Jesus and dinosaurs at the age of 3-4. i have studied, and believe in both my whole life, and personally cant see how one can exist w/o the other, however i understand that hter are those who believe one or the other never walked the earth. i was never taken to church, or forced to go myself. i started going alone (to sunday school) at around 8 years old cause i wanted to learn more. i still dont actively attend, yet i have studied and read the bible. its a great book.

from a literature standpoint id say its the greatest piece ever compiled.

MasterOfPuppets
04-02-2007, 11:50 PM
Tony, I wrote a post to you and erased it after I wrote it. I have gone to church for 43 years and never believed because I couldn't rationalize God. I am very analytical (though obviously a moron on SF crap) Anyway, what made me a recent believer is the realization that how could something so complex evolve from a single cell organism as intelligent? scientists say, but if we evolved from monkeys / apes, what the hell happened to everything in between and why can't we mate with our ancestors, the apes? What is on this earth is too amazing to be random. However, it is intersting that there are atheists that are great people! and supposed christians I see in church that are self righteous, judgmental, and arrogant a-holes. They say the path to heaven is NARROW! Apparently, those that believe aren't perfect, just forgiven! Being a disciple is a constant work in progress to be a better person and more christlike ( according to my religion ) I am far from perfect as you can see from my posts, but I am working to be better in his eyes every day.
but if we evolved from monkeys / apes, what the hell happened to everything in between
i'd like to know how religion explains the human/humanoid skeletons that carbon date back millions of years.were they just a highly evolved,upright walking species of ape that went extinct?
why can't we mate with our ancestors, the apes?
probably the same reason why a gorrilla can't mate with chimpanze or an orangutan.which are all apes. we don't have the exact same genetic make up.just similiar.the same reason cardinals don't breed with robins,thier both birds.

Preacher
04-03-2007, 12:53 AM
First, you all know, I'd never get insulting or disrespectful over anything.

Second, I'm busy today at work, so it looks like I won't be able to type at length until later.

But, explain to me why a sunset or childbirth has to have a god to be beautiful. Can't it just be beautiful?

In other words, show me why the world doesn't work without god. I won't even bother to get into asking to show me why there's a god who cares what we eat on certain days, or who we copulate with, or what we do on certain days.

And Wedo, I specifically request that the proof be given without quoting from a book.

Tom

Hey Mosca... First, I wanted to say thanks for being respectful in your discussion...

Now... here is what I am wondering... Why does the world working NOT point to God?
Basically, what I am asking, is why do we have to prove there is a God? When the testimony of all cultures is that there is a God, it would seem that the proof would have to exist against God, rather then for Him, since the testimony of most/all cultures is FOr a God.

Livinginthe past
04-03-2007, 04:36 AM
Hey guys.

I fixed the quotations on the later posts - someone mistyped a [/quote] bracket and the every post after that is out of sync.

Just so you know why those posts are edited.

Stainless Steel
04-03-2007, 06:10 AM
i'd like to know how religion explains the human/humanoid skeletons that carbon date back millions of years.were they just a highly evolved,upright walking species of ape that went extinct?
They are nothing more than extinct species. Problem solved. If you look at all those skeletons and other remains as extinct species that existed at one time rather than descendants, it answers many questions. All human like species have been determined to be simply human or ape-like. Sometimes, scientists modified their appearance so they could be famous. i.e. Lucy

I really love it when they cook up how they looked and then get an artist's rendition of what they looked like. It makes great fiction.

stlrtruck
04-03-2007, 07:34 AM
The recent conversation has taken a turn to why does everything have to have God in it to be beautiful.
Everything has God in it, regardless of it's view. As believers, Satan can not tempt us without first asking God. Does God allow us to be tempted? Yes! It is those trials and tribulations that make us better - not for ourselves but for the kingdom of heaven.
But I digress, back to the question of why does God need to be in everything - because God created everything. He made the Earth angled just right on it's axis. He made the plants, the animals, the mountains, the seas, the plains, the night, the day, and humans!
You want explanations "for God" but yet it just takes as much faith to believe in nothing or darwinism. Explain to me, IF Darwin is right that we evolved from other life forms, then why doesn't it still happen today? God created two people, Adam and Eve, and from there they were commanded to populate the Earth.

For those that don't believe in Jesus, God gives us that free will to choose. But one day the answer will hit you like a ton of bricks and only then will the truth be known. Until then, we all have our reasons for believing what we believe. As Christians we are commanded to share the Good News of Jesus Christ and what He did for us.

But we should all be careful that our point isn't to be right but to build relationship with others so that they may see Christ in us and want that relationship with Him that we have!

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-03-2007, 08:41 AM
Lets start by saying...the existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of philosophy and theology for thousands of years....most of the time, these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the meaning of a word and never really get there....Its like the college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going....he replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.

If I ask you to prove to me that you have $2.00, you would show it to me.... Even in more abstract things we use common sense and practical reasoning....if I ask you whether a certain person is honest or not ...you would not give dissertations on the relative nature of honesty... you would give me evidence one way or the other.

So the question is... can we give a logical, practical, pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective?... To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is reality... and that the matter of which we are made is real. If you do not believe that you exist... you have bigger problems and you will have to look elsewhere for therapy.

If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). Some atheists maintain that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed... in the form of either matter or energy... and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form... but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of alot of atheist's belief.

What has science discovered about this question....let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together....The day before that, we were still closer.... Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point!.... At the beginning! ... At what scientists call a singularity!... In 1999, it was discovered that the galaxies are accelerating in their expansion......Any notion that we live in an oscillating or pulsating universe has been dispelled by this discovery. The universe is not slowing down, but speeding up in its motion.

A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion....every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium ...with 4 million tons of matter released as energy....In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence.....This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars... each converting hydrogen into helium... thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos....Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics....Which states: In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more.....getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics...In space, things also get old.... Scientists refer to the aging process as heat death....If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," (Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying)... nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it...Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question.....was the creation caused or was it not caused?....The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."...not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause (a creation) but it also tells us what the cause was....It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created."...If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing....from empty space with no force...no matter...no energy...and no intelligence... Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing...all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong... invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong.... invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong. In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science..... No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.....The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong...The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect....The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer....what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause.....We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic.....Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is "through the things he has made." Atheism will try to convince us that we are the product of chance....Julian Huxley once said: "We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents."....The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways.....For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance.....modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life......if chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and could realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

With a practical proof of God's existence ....a flood of questions arise at this point. Which God are we talking about? Where did God come from? Why did God create us? How did God create us?....All of these questions are answered in the same way....by looking at the evidence in a practical, common sense way....reading his autobiography.

Livinginthe past
04-03-2007, 08:41 AM
The recent conversation has taken a turn to why does everything have to have God in it to be beautiful.
Everything has God in it, regardless of it's view. As believers, Satan can not tempt us without first asking God. Does God allow us to be tempted? Yes! It is those trials and tribulations that make us better - not for ourselves but for the kingdom of heaven.

You will have to bear with me - I am not the greatest scholar on the subject of the Bible.

Isn't Satan the root of all Evil?

If Satan was to simply 'not exist' then would there be no evil in the world?

If I remember my Old Testement then it was Satan, in the guise of a serpent, that tempted Adam and Eve with the 'Apple of Knowledge'(?) - wasn't that where original sin came from?

To my thinking, Adam and Eve lived in Paradise until that moment - if Satan hadn't existed to tempt them wouldn't we still be living in Paradise now?

If you take things another step, God built us from scratch - thats why we have the capability to sin - therefore God has designed us to fail - and when we fail we have to pray for forgiveness.

Pardon my cynicism by that sounds slightly ridiculous.
But I digress, back to the question of why does God need to be in everything - because God created everything. He made the Earth angled just right on it's axis. He made the plants, the animals, the mountains, the seas, the plains, the night, the day, and humans!
You want explanations "for God" but yet it just takes as much faith to believe in nothing or darwinism. Explain to me, IF Darwin is right that we evolved from other life forms, then why doesn't it still happen today? God created two people, Adam and Eve, and from there they were commanded to populate the Earth.

Did God also create Satan or are they opposite sides of the same coin?

If not, where did Satan come from?

The evolution you speak of has happened over millions of years - further evolution could well by happening right now its just that you wont notice it over such a short period of time.

For those that don't believe in Jesus, God gives us that free will to choose. But one day the answer will hit you like a ton of bricks and only then will the truth be known. Until then, we all have our reasons for believing what we believe. As Christians we are commanded to share the Good News of Jesus Christ and what He did for us.

But we should all be careful that our point isn't to be right but to build relationship with others so that they may see Christ in us and want that relationship with Him that we have!

Im amazed at the slightly Old Testement 'violence' used to describe the comeuppance due to non-believers - ton of bricks indeed.

Still it beats the flames of everlasting damnation I suppose.

stlrtruck
04-03-2007, 10:52 AM
You will have to bear with me - I am not the greatest scholar on the subject of the Bible.

Isn't Satan the root of all Evil?

If Satan was to simply 'not exist' then would there be no evil in the world?

If I remember my Old Testement then it was Satan, in the guise of a serpent, that tempted Adam and Eve with the 'Apple of Knowledge'(?) - wasn't that where original sin came from?

To my thinking, Adam and Eve lived in Paradise until that moment - if Satan hadn't existed to tempt them wouldn't we still be living in Paradise now?

If you take things another step, God built us from scratch - thats why we have the capability to sin - therefore God has designed us to fail - and when we fail we have to pray for forgiveness.

Pardon my cynicism by that sounds slightly ridiculous.


Did God also create Satan or are they opposite sides of the same coin?

If not, where did Satan come from?

The evolution you speak of has happened over millions of years - further evolution could well by happening right now its just that you wont notice it over such a short period of time.



Im amazed at the slightly Old Testement 'violence' used to describe the comeuppance due to non-believers - ton of bricks indeed.

Still it beats the flames of everlasting damnation I suppose.

Actually the root of all evil is money (LOL).

Satan (Lucifer) was originally an Angel in heaven. Lucifer was actually the highest angel at the time of his fall. Lucifer decided that he was bigger than God, convinced a 1/3 of the other angels that this was so, and God kicked them out of Heaven.

The original sin was actually Satan, tempting the man and woman. Now we can open up the debate as to who was the cause of the sin the man or the woman. But it basically came down to the free will that God gave us. Although we were made to worship God, he also let's us choose our path. God does not promise that if we follow His will for us, that our lives will be easy on the contrary, it will be difficult and our faith will be tested.

Had Adam and Eve repented of their sin instead of hid from God, I believe that we would still be living in Eden, free from the world as we know it today. However, it didn't happen that way and sin entered the world. God, after flooding the world made a covenant that he would never destroy the Earth like that again - the covenant was actually a rainbow (if my Old Testament recollection is correct). So in order for God to establish his covenant with the people again He sent His only Son to die on the cross (John 3:16).

If you look at man's original design, it was not to fail but to succeed. God made us to worship Him, to honor Him, and to praise Him. However, in his design, as previously stated, He gave us free will to decide to do those things. Is that a design flaw? I don't know but it's a question I have for Him when I get there. But along with the choice to sin, we have the choice to not sin. I don't know if it's ridiculous, I think it's great that we have a Father in Heaven who is not demanding we do things. Instead He teaches us.

As for the "Old Testament violence", I believe that the Bible speaks vividly about the damnation that awaits those who don't believe. So if you're a believer, then you know what's coming to those who don't. But if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then you wouldn't have anything to worry about because you wouldn't believe what the book of Revelations says about the END TIMES. However, in speaking on the subject, I don't feel that sugar coating it would do anyone justice.

RoethlisBURGHer
04-03-2007, 01:04 PM
Here's the way I look at this:

If you know a topic will offend you,just stay away.It's that simple.If you are Jewish,don't stray into a topic concerning Christ because there will never be agreement between a Jew and a Christian when it comes to the subject.

Keep all religious and political subjects to the locker room,and don't let the disagreements spill into football conversations.I don't like reading about something and someone then making a religious/political remark about a player/coach/owner/GM/poster...stick to football.

But back to the basic point of my post...if the title looks like it will offend you,or the content of the thread offends you...just ignore the thread/post/whatever.

And if a specific poster seems to offend you,put him/her on ignore!

stlrtruck
04-03-2007, 02:26 PM
Here's the way I look at this:

If you know a topic will offend you,just stay away.It's that simple.If you are Jewish,don't stray into a topic concerning Christ because there will never be agreement between a Jew and a Christian when it comes to the subject.

Keep all religious and political subjects to the locker room,and don't let the disagreements spill into football conversations.I don't like reading about something and someone then making a religious/political remark about a player/coach/owner/GM/poster...stick to football.

But back to the basic point of my post...if the title looks like it will offend you,or the content of the thread offends you...just ignore the thread/post/whatever.

And if a specific poster seems to offend you,put him/her on ignore!

Well stated. And may I add one to your list. If, once you are in a thread and you've become offended just leave it without telling people you are offended.

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 08:29 PM
but if we evolved from monkeys / apes, what the hell happened to everything in between
i'd like to know how religion explains the human/humanoid skeletons that carbon date back millions of years.were they just a highly evolved,upright walking species of ape that went extinct?
why can't we mate with our ancestors, the apes?
probably the same reason why a gorrilla can't mate with chimpanze or an orangutan.which are all apes. we don't have the exact same genetic make up.just similiar.the same reason cardinals don't breed with robins,thier both birds.

so we evolved from monkeys, gorillas, or apes and everything in betweeen became extinct? Explain that.:tap:

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 09:08 PM
so we evolved from monkeys, gorillas, or apes and everything in betweeen became extinct? Explain that.:tap:God wanted to seperate us from the animals we evolved from. :hunch: the long delicate evolutionary process just shows what a true work we were. some believe adam and eve were created from a pile of dust. i think this is the only way the writers of the bible (several thousands of years ago) could comprehend life evolving from the elements of the earth. they still were pretty much on the mark, even without the scientific discoveries that didnt come until hundereds and even thousands of years later.


as far as appreciating artwork, i much prefer michaelangelos "last judgement" that he painstakingly spent 7 years on, as opposed to something picasso scribbled out in 15 minutes. it took leonardo 4 years to paint the mona lisa. no wonder it is regarded as the finest masterpiece portrait ever created.

people shouldnt get too caught up in god creating everything in 6 days. a day is a simple measurement for man, and a day to God is far different to a day to man, especially before the heavens and earth and sun and moon are even created.

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 09:25 PM
so we evolved from monkeys, gorillas, or apes and everything in betweeen became extinct? Explain that.:tap:
hmmmmm...ok lets try elephants. i'm sure you've heard of mammoths and mastadons.they disappeared around 12,000 years ago,so why are elephants still hear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

American researchers were able to assemble a complete mitochondrial DNA of the mammoth, which allowed them to trace the close evolutionary relationship between mammoths and the Asian elephant. African elephants branched away from the woolly mammoth around 6 million years ago, a moment in time intriguingly close to that of the similar split between chimps and humans.

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 09:31 PM
You didn't explain it. You deferred to the price of beans in china.....figures.

Preacher
04-03-2007, 09:34 PM
hmmmmm...ok lets try elephants. i'm sure you've heard of mammoths and mastadons.they disappeared around 12,000 years ago,so why are elephants still hear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

American researchers were able to assemble a complete mitochondrial DNA of the mammoth, which allowed them to trace the close evolutionary relationship between mammoths and the Asian elephant. African elephants branched away from the woolly mammoth around 6 million years ago, a moment in time intriguingly close to that of the similar split between chimps and humans.

This is were science fails... It doesn't PROVE anything... except that there was close DNA between the two. Remember, in the scientific method, the results MUST BE OBSERVABLE. No evolutionary leap has been observed.

It is bad argumentation. I don't have a problem with the FACTS scientists point to. I have a problem with the ARGUMENTATION they employ to try and link the facts.

And remember, There is 98 percent chemical compound similarity between a cloud and a watermelon... But one seldom evolves into the other.
.001 percent distinction is enough to be a distinction... why does one HAVE to come from the other? Why can't they all have the SAME building blocks of life from a creator?

That is why I don't want evolution taught as fact in school, because it is not science... it is philosophical argument based on science. The same scientific facts can be used to argue creation.

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 09:46 PM
hmmmmm...ok lets try elephants. i'm sure you've heard of mammoths and mastadons.they disappeared around 12,000 years ago,so why are elephants still hear?

.simple

because the glaciers of the ice age didnt wipe out asia or africa. :hunch: its simple adaption and evolution. it helps explain how cavemen who live inside during the ice age in europe can become "white" while people who live outside in the equatorial region become "black".

many people make a big deal about the color of ones skin. i see it as a simple evolutionary by-product of ancestorial enviornment. pardon my prose courtesy of dawg-e-doo:

in the beginning, we had man
he lived in the sun, and he was tanned.
and even today, some people will laugh at ya
when you try to tell them that man evolved in africa.

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 09:50 PM
This is were science fails... It doesn't PROVE anything... except that there was close DNA between the two. Remember, in the scientific method, the results MUST BE OBSERVABLE. No evolutionary leap has been observed.

It is bad argumentation. I don't have a problem with the FACTS scientists point to. I have a problem with the ARGUMENTATION they employ to try and link the facts.

And remember, There is 98 percent chemical compound similarity between a cloud and a watermelon... But one seldom evolves into the other.
.001 percent distinction is enough to be a distinction... why does one HAVE to come from the other? Why can't they all have the SAME building blocks of life from a creator?

That is why I don't want evolution taught as fact in school, because it is not science... it is philosophical argument based on science. The same scientific facts can be used to argue creation.

but yet you believe noah built a boat big enough to carry 2 of every animal on board? and from these pairs the entire animal population was restablished?

Preacher
04-03-2007, 09:54 PM
but yet you believe noah built a boat big enough to carry 2 of every animal on board? and from these pairs the entire animal population was restablished?

I have no problem admitting that my belief is based on faith. The problem I have with evolutionists... is that they have a problem admitting thier beleif is based on faith as well... faith that humans have made the right assumptions, with SO MUCH data missing.

But no, it wasn't two cats, two tigers, two lions, etc.

I do believe in adaptation... I don't beleive in cross-special evolution.

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 09:55 PM
MOP..If we evolved from apes, etc., what happened to everything in between? What did we evolve from, where are the in betweens now, and if we evolved from them. why can't we breed with them?

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 09:56 PM
simple

because the glaciers of the ice age didnt wipe out asia or africa. :hunch: its simple adaption and evolution. it helps explain how cavemen who live inside during the ice age in europe can become "white" while people who live outside in the equatorial region become "black".

many people make a big deal about the color of ones skin. i see it as a simple evolutionary by-product of ancestorial enviornment. pardon my prose courtesy of dawg-e-doo:

in the beginning, we had man
he lived in the sun, and he was tanned.
and even today, some people will laugh at ya
when you try to tell them that man evolved in africa.
tony,did god create cavemen? and i guess sionce adam and eve were the first humans then the cavepeople came after huh?

Preacher
04-03-2007, 10:00 PM
tony,did god create cavemen? and i guess sionce adam and eve were the first humans then the cavepeople came after huh?

You live to be 500 years old, and see what you look like!

And before you question the ability of a person to live 500 years, ask yourself.

Is it more possible for people to live a very long time when the world was younger, or is it more possible for genetic mutations (which kill the organism 99.9 percent of the time) to continually re-make organisms into new species, until they became human, then cease for millions/billion years?

And that is why I continually say...

Christianity/Sceince, they both take faith!

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 10:14 PM
tony,did god create cavemen? and i guess sionce adam and eve were the first humans then the cavepeople came after huh?:dang: havent you kept up with this thread recently? my thoughts are pretty clear cut and i have even established a timeline stretching from dinosaurs and scorpions, to primates, to neanderthals, to adam and eve and the birth of civilized people (as we know them) and everything that has transpired since then.

the post in this thread, where i mention "yin and yang" should clear anything up for you. if thats not enough for you, i believe God created the heavens and the earth and everything in between.

if youve read all my posts on this topic in this thread, the whole "did God create cavemen" question is so yesterday. if you believe i think man and the earth were created 5000 years ago, i touched on that subject a long time ago too.

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 10:17 PM
You live to be 500 years old, and see what you look like!

yoda? oh wait. he was 800 years old. but it brings me to an important question. was yoda just an old human or just another galactic creature? (most jedi's were human)

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 10:30 PM
simple

because the glaciers of the ice age didnt wipe out asia or africa. :hunch: its simple adaption and evolution. it helps explain how cavemen who live inside during the ice age in europe can become "white" while people who live outside in the equatorial region become "black".

many people make a big deal about the color of ones skin. i see it as a simple evolutionary by-product of ancestorial enviornment. pardon my prose courtesy of dawg-e-doo:

in the beginning, we had man
he lived in the sun, and he was tanned.
and even today, some people will laugh at ya
when you try to tell them that man evolved in africa.

bingo! but wait! there's no such thing!:dang:

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 10:37 PM
simple

because the glaciers of the ice age didnt wipe out asia or africa. :hunch: its simple adaption and evolution. it helps explain how cavemen who live inside during the ice age in europe can become "white" while people who live outside in the equatorial region become "black".

many people make a big deal about the color of ones skin. i see it as a simple evolutionary by-product of ancestorial enviornment. pardon my prose courtesy of dawg-e-doo:

in the beginning, we had man
he lived in the sun, and he was tanned.
and even today, some people will laugh at ya
when you try to tell them that man evolved in africa.

bingo! but wait! there's no such thing!:dang:

Dude, what has happened to everything between us & Yoda? did they just disappear?

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 10:46 PM
bingo! but wait! there's no such thing!:dang:

show me in the bible where it says evolution or adaption doesnt exist.

those who are so pro darwinism, and so anti- creationism are usually those who havent even taken the time to read a simple book called the bible, yet put in the time to understand and study the philosophy behind it. wther you like it or not, believe it or not, the fact is, the old testament is one of the oldest pieces of literature known to man. you would think we would be educated on that for that reason alone. studying shakespeare is todays equivalent of watching soap operas. good to know schools got their priorities in order though :thumbsup:

i can only suggest to not rely on only what you have been told.

"search and ye shall find"

i dont know if this is the case with you or not. but i find it hilarious to get into a debate about the bible, only to find someone hasnt even read the book. i would never try to force anyone to go out and read the bible but i would definitely recommen it as a great book, just like i would recomment "fastimes at ridgemont high" as an excellent movie.

Elvis
04-03-2007, 10:50 PM
very odd to see one praying for ones soul in this thread, calling another a punk (for what was a rather rude comment so i understand)

im just commenting on the strange dichotomy.



"the 1stborn of every creature" or life in general. its biblicap phrases like these that lead me to believe all life is valuable, and was the essense of our creation. God is the essense of our being. i have no problem with the thought that we evolved from monkeys (primates to be exact) or any form of life for that matter.
Your right Tony.. I have to appologize for my getting upset and saying things that I know I shouldnt at times, but I am Not perfect and everyone makes mistakes.
Jesus Is King
Elvis

Elvis
04-03-2007, 11:05 PM
John 16:27
" For the father himself (God) loveth you, because ye (you/me) have loved me (Jesus), and have believed that I (Jesus) came out from God.
Hebrews 10:11
" For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed"
Hebrews 10:13
" For whosover shall call upon the Lord Shall Be Saved"
I am No Longer here to argue with anyone about this subject, I just hope that all will get something out of this in a Good Way and I hope that all will just give God a chance and just think about all the good things that have happened in your life, and just thank God for them. God doesnt always allow good things to happen to us Christians, alot of times we struggle here on this earth that some call home. This Is Not My Home... my home is gonna be in the Glory Land ... I am sorry if I have came on too strong in this subject but it just hurts me to think that someone will talk about God like the way some do.. Like parkerboy that started this thread and then talks bad about me. I hope God will touch him and just convict his heart that he will not be able to sleep for days until he decides to give God the credit for all that is.. and all that is gonna be...
God Bless You All
Elvis

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 11:09 PM
show me in the bible where it says evolution or adaption doesnt exist.

those who are so pro darwinism, and so anti- creationism are usually those who havent even taken the time to read a simple book called the bible, yet put in the time to understand and study the philosophy behind it. wther you like it or not, believe it or not, the fact is, the old testament is one of the oldest pieces of literature known to man. you would think we would be educated on that for that reason alone. studying shakespeare is todays equivalent of watching soap operas. good to know schools got their priorities in order though :thumbsup:

i can only suggest to not rely on only what you have been told.

"search and ye shall find"

i dont know if this is the case with you or not. but i find it hilarious to get into a debate about the bible, only to find someone hasnt even read the book. i would never try to force anyone to go out and read the bible but i would definitely recommen it as a great book, just like i would recomment "fastimes at ridgemont high" as an excellent movie.nope,thats not me. i went to church every sunday till i was 17 yrs old. have i sat down and read it from front to back.no,but i think at some point i've heard every verse at least twice.i even went to bible school til i was probably 15.

but anyhow,you even pointed out how human,adapted and evolved due to climate and geography,so why is it so hard to believe this has been happening over millions of years?

MasterOfPuppets
04-03-2007, 11:23 PM
why is jesus always depicted in pictures and movies as being a caucasion with long hair and a beard? i wouldn't think there were to many white guys in the middle east back then.

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 11:26 PM
why is jesus always depicted in pictures and movies as being a caucasion with long hair and a beard? i wouldn't think there were to many white guys in the middle east back then.

Wow, I guess Jesus isn't real... What is your point!!!!!!!! Bad pictures & movies 2000 years later? Ugh!!!!

Preacher
04-03-2007, 11:29 PM
May I tell a little story...

My mother, aunts and uncles grew up on a farm. That generation just "knew" how to do things. One day, a few years ago, my uncle and a nephew of his (a cousing of mine) were out in the middle of the forest doing some work. The machine they were using broke. My cousin was upset. Being a college educated man, he understood the intricacies and minimal variances that were allowed in fixing the part. (it was a nut on an end of a spindle that rotated at over 10,000 RPM).

My uncle however, had no college and actually, very little highschool. However, he knew how to make things work. He could care less about variances. He took the bolt, tack welded it to the end of the spindle, and threw the switch to crank it on. My cousing was running for his life, thinking the spindle would vibrate out of balance and rip apart, sending metal shards everywhere. Instead, the entire machine starting humming beautifully, and they finished the work. My uncle just "knew" how to do it, regardless of what the "paramenters' were... it is an art form to them. Many of you may have uncles and aunts like that.

Why do I bring this up in this forum?

Because you all have a choice to make....

either life is science... and you disect every little piece for the variances and parameters... or it is an art form, and you just accept it.


Science is just one more method of understanding... not THE method... and not the right method. Is life science? or an art form for you?

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 11:35 PM
but anyhow,you even pointed out how human,adapted and evolved due to climate and geography,so why is it so hard to believe this has been happening over millions of years? its not. not for me atleast. i guess it depends on what people are taught. how can americans in the south today still believe that "black" folks are still inferior??? how can neo nazis believe jews are inferior???

its all explained in sociology

tony hipchest
04-03-2007, 11:42 PM
why is jesus always depicted in pictures and movies as being a caucasion with long hair and a beard? i wouldn't think there were to many white guys in the middle east back then.there werent. are you gonna trust 14th century artist depections over the word, ("The News")?

why do white guys in caramel paint always depict indians in "cowboys and indian" films of the 40's, 50's and 60's?

pretty much the same answer.

i live amongst indians (naitive americans). i know they arent white guys with dark make up on. just like i know Jesus wasnt your typical image of a long haired trailer trash h0nkey.

Livinginthe past
04-03-2007, 11:45 PM
I have to say im impressed with everyones abilities to share opinions without getting too hot under the collar.

Its fascinating reading everyones thoughts - its obviously something that we spend some serious time pondering.

Preacher - my father is just like your uncle - he has this amazing non-schooled natural Engineering brain - he makes alot of stuff on an instinctual level without drawings and the like.

One of his latest was an ornamental well for the garden made from wood - it was octagonal so you can imagine how bad it had the potential to be had it gone wrong.

Turned out perfect.

In that instance you give - its Engineering science that allows you to draw up a set of rules to help less naturally talented engineers (such as I) to recreate the feat.

GBMelBlount
04-03-2007, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=Preacher;234630]May I tell a little story...

My mother, aunts and uncles grew up on a farm. That generation just "knew" how to do things. One day, a few years ago, my uncle and a nephew of his (a cousing of mine) were out in the middle of the forest doing some work. The machine they were using broke. My cousin was upset. Being a college educated man, he understood the intricacies and minimal variances that were allowed in fixing the part. (it was a nut on an end of a spindle that rotated at over 10,000 RPM).

My uncle however, had no college and actually, very little highschool. However, he knew how to make things work. He could care less about variances. He took the bolt, tack welded it to the end of the spindle, and threw the switch to crank it on. My cousing was running for his life, thinking the spindle would vibrate out of balance and rip apart, sending metal shards everywhere. Instead, the entire machine starting humming beautifully, and they finished the work. My uncle just "knew" how to do it, regardless of what the "paramenters' were... it is an art form to them. Many of you may have uncles and aunts like that.

Why do I bring this up in this forum?

Because this is one helluva story!! No pun intended...I only help that this helps to bring the Lord's blessing upon the Steelers in 2007 & they kick some ---!

Sorry for cutting off the end. GB the Steelers!

Preacher
04-04-2007, 12:39 AM
I have to say im impressed with everyones abilities to share opinions without getting too hot under the collar.

Its fascinating reading everyones thoughts - its obviously something that we spend some serious time pondering.

Preacher - my father is just like your uncle - he has this amazing non-schooled natural Engineering brain - he makes alot of stuff on an instinctual level without drawings and the like.

One of his latest was an ornamental well for the garden made from wood - it was octagonal so you can imagine how bad it had the potential to be had it gone wrong.

Turned out perfect.

In that instance you give - its Engineering science that allows you to draw up a set of rules to help less naturally talented engineers (such as I) to recreate the feat.

True... but he didn't take any of that science, was no engineer.. etc.

He simply understands what needs to be done, even when science says it shouldn't be done that way.

However, one thing you are right about... it is nice to be able to debate/discuss without people being ugly about it.

Stainless Steel
04-04-2007, 06:15 AM
why is jesus always depicted in pictures and movies as being a caucasion with long hair and a beard? i wouldn't think there were to many white guys in the middle east back then.
Well, then you don't know as much about Christianity as you previously mentioned if you are asking that question. Study some Christian world history for that one.

Stainless Steel
04-04-2007, 06:19 AM
but anyhow,you even pointed out how human,adapted and evolved due to climate and geography,so why is it so hard to believe this has been happening over millions of years?There is a world of difference between adaption, which is the God given ability to adapt in order to survive and the evolutionary jump into another species.

stlrtruck
04-04-2007, 07:48 AM
show me in the bible where it says evolution or adaption doesnt exist.

those who are so pro darwinism, and so anti- creationism are usually those who havent even taken the time to read a simple book called the bible, yet put in the time to understand and study the philosophy behind it. wther you like it or not, believe it or not, the fact is, the old testament is one of the oldest pieces of literature known to man. you would think we would be educated on that for that reason alone. studying shakespeare is todays equivalent of watching soap operas. good to know schools got their priorities in order though :thumbsup:

i can only suggest to not rely on only what you have been told.

"search and ye shall find"

i dont know if this is the case with you or not. but i find it hilarious to get into a debate about the bible, only to find someone hasnt even read the book. i would never try to force anyone to go out and read the bible but i would definitely recommen it as a great book, just like i would recomment "fastimes at ridgemont high" as an excellent movie.


I was with you right up until you recommended "Fastimes at Ridgemont High" as an excellent movie. LOL

Mosca
04-04-2007, 10:55 AM
Oh my, I missed a couple days and it looks like people had some fun.

Tony, I'm not trying to give any evidence for there not being a God. I was only trying to show that is is possible to be well adjusted and also hold that view. The rhetorical questions I asked were the ones that I've asked myself, the ones that led me to an answer different from that of many others.

I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone else of my point of view. Those reading and participating here have also devoted a lot of time and thought and soul-searching to this question. It would be presumptuous of me to think that I COULD convince others here, based on a relationship of internet communication! We haven't even met, after all! But even in person, your private thoughts and deliberation on the question will always be the ones you will follow. You don't come to your answer based on what people say; you come to your answer based on what you've lived. So if I've been unconvincing, it's because I haven't tried to convince you; I'm only asking for equal respect from believers that they give to other believers (and of course, I've received that here). Just as I see Christians as peers, I ask that Christians see atheists as peers.

Kinda all over the place, I know; but in a discussion that takes place over a number of days, with many hours inbetween thoughts, that happens sometimes I guess. But that ties it back to ParkerFan's original post, where he asks for some consideration that not all posters are Christian, and that it is possible to misinterpret a blessing that he might "devote his live to Jesus" as a sleight rather than an interfaith expression of goodwill. It would be like me saying, "May you finally see the light of Darwin!" to Wedosteelers2006. I don't think anyone would think that I was blessing him.



Tom

Stainless Steel
04-04-2007, 12:07 PM
As to the type of creation theory I adhere to, it is the gap theory. It holds to the 6 days of creation, yet allows for all kinds of things to happen before those seven days. PM me if you want more details on this. I'm off to work.

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-04-2007, 01:46 PM
Just something else to think about...so that both sides are considered:

The majority of Christians in churches probably aren't sure whether God really created everything in six literal days. Many believe it doesn't matter whether it took six days or six million years. However, it is vital to believe in six literal days for many reasons. Foremost is that allowing these days to be long periods of time undermines the foundations of the message of the Cross.

The major reason why people doubt that the days of creation are 24-hour literal days usually has nothing to do with what the Bible says, but comes from outside influences. For example, many believe that because scientists have supposedly proved the earth to be billions of years old then the days of creation cannot be ordinary days.

If people use Scripture to try to justify that the days of creation are long periods of time, they usually quote passages such as 2 Peter 3:8, '... one day is with the Lord as a thousand years ...'. Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, '... and a thousand years as one day'. This cancels out their argument! The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This particular verse is telling people that with God, waiting a day is like waiting a thousand years, and waiting a thousand years is like waiting a day because God is outside of time—He is not limited by natural processes and time. This has absolutely nothing to do with defining the days of creation. Besides, the word 'day' already exists and has been defined, which is why in 2 Peter it can be compared to a thousand years. There is no reference in this passage to the days of creation.

The Hebrew word for day in Genesis chapter 1 is the word yom. It is important to understand that almost any word can have two or more meanings, depending on context. We need to understand the context of the usage of this word in Genesis chapter 1.*

Respected Hebrew dictionaries, like the Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicon, give a number of meanings for the word yom depending upon context. One of the passages they give for yom's meaning an ordinary day happens to be Genesis chapter 1. The reason is obvious. Every time the word yom is used with a number, or with the phrase 'evening and morning', anywhere in the Old Testament, it always means an ordinary day. In Genesis chapter 1, for each of the six days of creation, the Hebrew word yom is used with a number and the phrase, 'evening and morning'. There is no doubt that the writer is being emphatic that these are ordinary days.

The idea of millions of years came from the belief that the fossil record was built up over a long time. As soon as people allow for millions of years, they allow for the fossil record to be millions of years old. This creates an insurmountable problem regarding the gospel. The fossil record consists of the death of billions of creatures. In fact, it is a record of death, disease, suffering, cruelty, and brutality. It is a very ugly record.

The Bible is adamant though, that death, disease, and suffering came into the world as a result of sin. God instituted death and bloodshed because of sin so man could be redeemed. As soon as Christians allow for death, suffering, and disease before sin, then the whole foundations of the message of the Cross and the Atonement have been destroyed. The doctrine of original sin, then, is totally undermined.

If there were death, disease, and suffering before Adam rebelled—then what did sin do to the world? What does Paul mean in Romans 8 when he says the whole of creation groans in pain because of the Curse? How can all things be restored in the future to no more death and suffering, unless the beginning was also free of death and suffering? The whole message of the gospel falls apart if one allows millions of years for the creation of the world.

One of the major problems we all have (in fact, it is the same problem Adam and Eve had) is that we tend to start from outside God's Word and then go to what God has written in the Bible (or—in Adam's case—what God said directly to him) to try to interpret it on the basis of our own ideas. This is really the major reason why most people question the days of creation.

We need to realize that the Bible is God's Word. And as it is the inspired Word of the infinite Creator, God, then it must be self-authenticating and self-attesting. Thus, we should always start with what God's Word says regardless of outside ideas. Only God's Word is infallible.

If we allow our children to accept the possibility that we can doubt the days of creation when the language speaks so plainly, then we are teaching them a particular approach to all of Scripture. Why shouldn't they then start to doubt that Christ's Virgin Birth really means a virgin birth? Why shouldn't they start to doubt that the Resurrection really means resurrection?

In fact, there are many theologians who doubt these very things, as they have come to disbelieve the plain words of Scripture written in the foundational Book of Genesis.

Why did God take six days?
If you think about it, an infinite Creator God could have created everything in no time. Why, then, did He take as long as six days? The answer is given in Exodus 20:11. Here we find that God tells us that He deliberately took six days and rested for one as a pattern for man—this is where the seven-day week comes from. The seven-day week has no basis for existing except from Scripture. If one believes that the days of creation are long periods of time, then the week becomes meaningless.

The Bible tells us that Adam was created on the sixth day. If he lived through day six and day seven, and then died when he was 930 years old, and if each of these days was a thousand or a million years, you have major problems! On the fourth day of creation (Genesis 1:14-19), we are given the comparison of day to night, and days to years. If the word 'day' doesn't mean an ordinary day, then the comparison of day to night and day to years becomes meaningless.

polamalufan43
04-04-2007, 02:22 PM
^^^True, the first part does make sense, although I'm not saying that I agree or disagree completely. God's time is supposed to be different than our time.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
04-04-2007, 02:25 PM
the bilble says a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day..

polamalufan43
04-04-2007, 02:27 PM
the bilble says a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day..

Yeah, time is different. So 7 days to us might be a whole lot different to God.

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

Preacher
04-05-2007, 12:39 AM
I'm only asking for equal respect from believers that they give to other believers (and of course, I've received that here). Just as I see Christians as peers, I ask that Christians see atheists as peers.


Tom

Tom...

Interesting part of your quote.

We as Christians are to show all people respect. In our eyes, every human is made in God's image. As a result, I must respect all humans (I think we have had that discussion somewhere else).

however, peers, has to be defined as to when and where. If I walk into a seminar for atheists, I won't, nor should I be seen as a peer. When I have decisions to make, I go to my peers, which are my Christian friends. If I have a non-christian friend who is a expert in the area, I will take his/her advice, but I will bounce it off other Christians because they ALONE hold my moral/spiritual look on life (not saying that Christians are less moral, just that even if they are more moral, it is for different reasons).

However, in an affinity group, which this board is, my peers are all my Steeler buddies. In that fact, it is paramount to all Christians to treat everyone with love.

Without putting words in Wedo's mouth, I can understand where he is coming from. We beleive that there is an eternal hell for all who do not accept Jesus. In that vein, it is our hope and desire that you all who do not believe will come to beleive in Jesus because we want to spend eternity with you!