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Jeremy
05-24-2007, 05:17 PM
Bush is selling out America for the Latino vote. (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/5/22/115251.shtml)

This country had better start paying attention to what their leaders are doing. You're about to be blindsided with the most ridiculous piece of legislation ever to come out of Congress and the majority of Americans think it's a good thing.

Listen up folks, I live in Tucson, Arizona. That's basically ground zero for immigration debate. Let me tell you right here and now that you do not want this bill to pass. These people are like locusts. If you think Social Security is in trouble now. Wait until we have millions of formerly illegal immigrants sucking the life out of the system. These people don't make America better. I beg each and every one of you, see through the PC bullshit and contact your Senators and Congressmen today and tell them they'll lose your vote if they pass this first step to the complete and total destruction of America.

Dick Morris explains why this is all about politics and not what's actually best for America. (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/5/23/164150.shtml)

revefsreleets
05-24-2007, 05:58 PM
This is an insanely complicated subject. There is no good solution.

Atlanta Dan
05-24-2007, 06:06 PM
This is an insanely complicated subject. There is no good solution.

Agreed.

Like trade with China that devastates American industries, people like the cheap prices illegal immigation brings until the costs outweigh those benefits.

Working out how to balance thse costs and benefits, which are not distributed evenly, is a tough issue for most people who are not as smart as Dick Morris, Sean Hannity and Pat Buchanan.

Let's just say this President probably is not in the best position from a political or for that matter credibility standpoint to be making those tough choices these days and may be cutting deals in a desperate attempt to have a legacy that rests on more than his foreign policy record.

Jeremy
05-24-2007, 06:07 PM
This is an insanely complicated subject. There is no good solution.

Yes there is, it's called enforcing the laws on the books. I'm so tired of people trying to make this is a complicated issue. If you're here without a green card/visa/etc, you're here illegally and shoudl be arressted and sent back to wherever it is that you came from. What the Republicans are trying to do right now is win the hearts and minds of the Latino community by buying them off with this bill. It's a disgrace.

j-dawg
05-24-2007, 06:23 PM
[/B]

Yes there is, it's called enforcing the laws on the books. I'm so tired of people trying to make this is a complicated issue. If you're here without a green card/visa/etc, you're here illegally and shoudl be arressted and sent back to wherever it is that you came from. What the Republicans are trying to do right now is win the hearts and minds of the Latino community by buying them off with this bill. It's a disgrace.

i have a feeling this bill will be watered down and amount to little more than lip service by the time it's pushed through... this "immigration debate" is little more than a distraction to the war and our non existent debate of an exit strategy. as far as enforcing laws on the books... there are so many ridiculous laws that never get enforced... how could you fund any of 'em anyway when we've spent $456 billion on iraq?

revefsreleets
05-24-2007, 06:37 PM
[/b]

Yes there is, it's called enforcing the laws on the books. I'm so tired of people trying to make this is a complicated issue. If you're here without a green card/visa/etc, you're here illegally and shoudl be arressted and sent back to wherever it is that you came from. What the Republicans are trying to do right now is win the hearts and minds of the Latino community by buying them off with this bill. It's a disgrace.

And how exactly do we arrest 20,000,000 people and send them home? And how will we pay for it? And who will take the yucky jobs that these people do? And how will we keep more from coming in while we are busy getting rid of the ones who are here now? And what do we do if 20,000,000 people start rioting? Shoot them? Barring shooting them, and not being able to ship them home, do we imprison them? If so, what do we do with our current prisoners?

I'd say it's pretty complicated.

Hammer67
05-24-2007, 06:38 PM
[/b]

Yes there is, it's called enforcing the laws on the books. I'm so tired of people trying to make this is a complicated issue. If you're here without a green card/visa/etc, you're here illegally and shoudl be arressted and sent back to wherever it is that you came from. What the Republicans are trying to do right now is win the hearts and minds of the Latino community by buying them off with this bill. It's a disgrace.


EXACTLY. To just legalize everyone is a slap in the face of every law abiding immigrant that came over and stood in line, paid the fees and got in legally. What a cop out. I wish I could pick what laws I wanted to abide by! I work with a guy who came over from Ireland 5 years ago and went through the legal procedures. He is more offended by this law then I am.

And, for Christ's sake, if you are trying to even make a case for your illegal ass to be here, don't walk on a protest carrying another nation's flag. :nono:

What they should do, instead of running away from their own country, is try to fix what's wrong with it.

Jeremy
05-24-2007, 06:42 PM
And how exactly do we arrest 20,000,000 people and send them home? And how will we pay for it? And who will take the yucky jobs that these people do? And how will we keep more from coming in while we are busy getting rid of the ones who are here now? And what do we do if 20,000,000 people start rioting? Shoot them? Barring shooting them, and not being able to ship them home, do we imprison them? If so, what do we do with our current prisoners?

I'd say it's pretty complicated.


Yes.

But it's good to see another member of society step forward and embrace their membership in the Bleeding Hearts Club.

revefsreleets
05-24-2007, 06:46 PM
That's the first time I've ever been called a bleeding heart in my life. And why? I guess because I don't think seeing 20,000,000 people shot just because they are different is such a great idea.

I'm too new to cause any trouble, but I still think this is way too complicated for any quick and easy solution.

Hammer67
05-24-2007, 06:51 PM
That's the first time I've ever been called a bleeding heart in my life. And why? I guess because I don't think seeing 20,000,000 people shot just because they are different is such a great idea.

I'm too new to cause any trouble, but I still think this is way too complicated for any quick and easy solution.


Kind of drastic to shoot them...I highly doubt that would fit into any modern democracy's solutions. But, to award them for braking the law while law abiding citizens and immigrants are doing things the right way is perposterous. You can't just pick and choose which laws to abide by. If that were the case, I would be smoking a joint right now.

tony hipchest
05-24-2007, 06:55 PM
we could build the american version of "The Great Wall of China" but unfortunately we would need illegal foreign manpower to accomplish such a task. :hunch:

catch 22

Jeremy
05-24-2007, 07:06 PM
That's the first time I've ever been called a bleeding heart in my life. And why? I guess because I don't think seeing 20,000,000 people shot just because they are different is such a great idea.

I'm too new to cause any trouble, but I still think this is way too complicated for any quick and easy solution.

No, you'd like to see 20 million people rewarded for breaking the law. That's what earsn you your membership into the Bleeding Hearts Club. And yes, I would indeed shoot 20 million people if it meant protecting America and upholding the law. But the Bleeding Hearts Club isn't about enforcing the law, it's about changing the law so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Crushzilla
05-24-2007, 07:38 PM
Eek. I'm staying out of this one..

:cya:

Atlanta Dan
05-24-2007, 07:52 PM
Take this poll for what it is worth.


Two-thirds of those polled say illegal immigrants who have a clean employment record and no criminal history should gain legal status as the bill proposes: by paying at least $5,000 in fines and fees and receiving a renewable four-year visa.

If a majority of the country thinks it is okie-dokie to buy your way out of illegal immigration by paying a $5000 fine as long as you are not a criminal, I have completely lost touch with majority opinion in this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/us/politics/25cnd-poll.html?hp

But the poll has a current 30-63 approval/disapproval rating for W so I am hesitant to say it is inaccurate.:sofunny:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070525poll.pdf

Mosca
05-24-2007, 08:24 PM
I'm too new to cause any trouble.....


Whoa, bruddah Steeler fan. Just one second, let me initiate you...

GABBA GABBA WE ACCEPT YOU WE ACCEPT YOU ONE OF US.
GABBA GABBA WE ACCEPT YOU WE ACCEPT YOU ONE OF US.
GABBA GABBA WE ACCEPT YOU WE ACCEPT YOU ONE OF US.


OK, now you can go ahead and cause trouble.

Seriously; this is one of the very best places you will find for discussing issues. Jump in, the water is boiling hot! And don't forget; always attack the idea, never the person behind it.


TRom

Jeremy
05-24-2007, 08:52 PM
Take this poll for what it is worth.


Two-thirds of those polled say illegal immigrants who have a clean employment record and no criminal history should gain legal status as the bill proposes: by paying at least $5,000 in fines and fees and receiving a renewable four-year visa.

If a majority of the country thinks it is okie-dokie to buy your way out of illegal immigration by paying a $5000 fine as long as you are not a criminal, I have completely lost touch with majority opinion in this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/us/politics/25cnd-poll.html?hp

But the poll has a current 30-63 approval/disapproval rating for W so I am hesitant to say it is inaccurate.:sofunny:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070525poll.pdf

Why do you think I want to move to Utah?

Blitzburgh
05-24-2007, 09:18 PM
Agree with the title of this thread ....

The Repubs have sold out America


They're the type you have to ask to leave the wedding reception because they get too drunk on power and money.

Stlrs4Life
05-24-2007, 10:03 PM
Agreed.

Like trade with China that devastates American industries, people like the cheap prices illegal immigation brings until the costs outweigh those benefits.

Working out how to balance thse costs and benefits, which are not distributed evenly, is a tough issue for most people who are not as smart as Dick Morris, Sean Hannity and Pat Buchanan.

Let's just say this President probably is not in the best position from a political or for that matter credibility standpoint to be making those tough choices these days and may be cutting deals in a desperate attempt to have a legacy that rests on more than his foreign policy record.


Very good post Atlanta Dan. I also do not like this bill going through, it's both sides fasult also on this one, Democrat and Republican. And I have already notified my congressman. Spector and Casey.

GBMelBlount
05-24-2007, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE=Atlanta Dan;250513]Take this poll for what it is worth.


Two-thirds of those polled say illegal immigrants who have a clean employment record and no criminal history should gain legal status as the bill proposes: by paying at least $5,000 in fines and fees and receiving a renewable four-year visa.

If a majority of the country thinks it is okie-dokie to buy your way out of illegal immigration by paying a $5000 fine as long as you are not a criminal, I have completely lost touch with majority opinion in this country.

fansince'76
05-24-2007, 11:28 PM
Kinda like the exit polls in 2004 that had Kerry winning by a landslide?

Blitzburgh
05-24-2007, 11:32 PM
Denial ... Denial


Funny how those that have their very foundational system of values and beliefs attacked or discredited as being built on faulty logic ... immediately shut the outside world out as if there are no other opinions.

GBMelBlount
05-24-2007, 11:35 PM
[QUOTE=Atlanta Dan;250513]Take this poll for what it is worth.


Two-thirds of those polled say illegal immigrants who have a clean employment record and no criminal history should gain legal status as the bill proposes: by paying at least $5,000 in fines and fees and receiving a renewable four-year visa.

If a majority of the country thinks it is okie-dokie to buy your way out of illegal immigration by paying a $5000 fine as long as you are not a criminal, I have completely lost touch with majority opinion in this country.This is insane!

AD, Thank You for the common sense. If Bush is pushing this, I might as well vote for Ted "Russia Rocks!!!!" Kennedy.

GBMelBlount
05-24-2007, 11:40 PM
we could build the american version of "The Great Wall of China" but unfortunately we would need illegal foreign manpower to accomplish such a task. :hunch:

catch 22


Sometimes the right thing to do isn't the easiest.

GBMelBlount
05-24-2007, 11:44 PM
And how exactly do we arrest 20,000,000 people and send them home? And how will we pay for it? And who will take the yucky jobs that these people do? And how will we keep more from coming in while we are busy getting rid of the ones who are here now? And what do we do if 20,000,000 people start rioting? Shoot them? Barring shooting them, and not being able to ship them home, do we imprison them? If so, what do we do with our current prisoners?

I'd say it's pretty complicated.

You're right, why not just change our country name to Mexico!

rbryan
05-25-2007, 12:32 AM
Here we go. Now you want to blame immigration reform on the Republicans?? OK, so they let em all in to begin with for cheap labor, but nobody said anything about making everyone a citizen. (Thats the brainstorm of your friendly Democratic left wing, limp dick, bleeding heart liberals, aka Hillary C. & Osama bin Chicago)

Focus people, this is merely a distraction. Can we stay pissed long enough about the cluster f*@k in Iraq and the ties between big oil and the rep party to force a change in that policy????

BTW, I've officially swithched my affiliation from the Republican Party to the Indep/Pat Paulsen for president ticket.

Hammer67
05-25-2007, 07:34 AM
Regarding parties...I find it interesting that there are only 2 dominant parties in this country. George Washington, in his farewell speech for his final term as president, discouraged a two party political system and foresaw the partisan politics that would emerge from it. That's why I will always remain an independant. I like to think outside of the kool aid drinking parties. The far right scares me...and the far left REALLY, REALLY scares me.:willy:

So I sit just right of center! :wink02:

Immigration policy is easy. If it's illegal, it should be punished according to the law, not rewarded. At the very least, we shouldn't be paying their medical bills or paying for them to sit in our prisons.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-25-2007, 11:26 AM
[/B]

Yes there is, it's called enforcing the laws on the books. I'm so tired of people trying to make this is a complicated issue. If you're here without a green card/visa/etc, you're here illegally and shoudl be arressted and sent back to wherever it is that you came from. What the Republicans are trying to do right now is win the hearts and minds of the Latino community by buying them off with this bill. It's a disgrace.

Strange....as I recall the Dems were saying that what Bush was doing was "too little" and they were calling for all out citizenship of illegal immigrants.


...............Both Lieberman and Gephardt have sponsored bills that would allow all illegal immigrants in the country to earn legalization, if they have been in the country working for five years and pass a background check.

That "earned legalization" approached is also endorsed by the front-runner in the Democratic president race, Howard Dean.

"My view is if you've lived here for a significant period of time -- whether you're undocumented or documented -- and you have contributed to your community, you have never been arrested or gone to jail or any of that stuff, and you've paid your taxes and worked hard, that you ought to have a path to earn legalization of citizenship and so forth," Dean said at an appearance in Iowa.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, said he "absolutely" supported the goal of legalizing undocumented workers. ....CNN.COM


Top congressional Democrats formally unveiled an immigration plan Tuesday that they say is as much about legalizing millions of undocumented workers as it is about forcing the Republicans to deliver specifics about a guest-worker proposal pushed by President Bush.

"I wish President Bush would stop talking about his immigration 'principles' and talk about specifics," said Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., co-sponsor of the Democrats' immigration bill. "Our bill is about specifics, and voters can judge for themselves which proposal would truly reform our nation's immigration laws."

The Democrats' bill, dubbed the Safe, Orderly, Legal Visas and Enforcement Act, would allow illegal immigrants to qualify for a green card or permanent legal residence if they proved they had lived in the United States for five consecutive years and had worked here at least two years.

Earlier this year, Bush proposed a guest-worker program that would give millions of undocumented immigrants temporary legal status for six years or longer. But they would not be eligible for permanent residency.

The plan hasn't been drafted into legislation, but officials say it represents a reasonable compromise between those who want to shut the country's doors to immigrants and those who want to swing the doors open.

The Democrats are pushing the administration, banking that millions of Hispanic voters will view immigration as a make-or-break issue in this year's presidential election.

"Our bill makes the debate over immigration very clear to voters in November," said Rep. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., another co-sponsor of the bill. "It's about choosing to support a proposal that would legalize undocumented immigrants or one that seeks to deport them."......azcentral.com

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-25-2007, 11:35 AM
Agree with the title of this thread ....

They're the type you have to ask to leave the wedding reception because they get too drunk on power and money.

..and again dont let the facts get in the way of your debate....:dang:....just use emotion...and nasty remarks to drown out the articles I just posted....or better yet..take the initiative to do a little internet search and see how twisted it is to claim Bush and the republicans welcom the legalization of illegal immigrants over the democrats.

Atlanta Dan
05-25-2007, 11:48 AM
It is a bipartisan compromise - neither party wants to be tagged as being soft on illegals or lose the Hispanic vote by being accused of immigrant bashing so it is not a Democratic or Republican bill.

Here is a link to an article describing the negotiations.

President Bush helped plant the seeds of this year’s negotiations on Jan. 8, at a White House event celebrating the fifth anniversary of the No Child Left Behind Act. Mr. Bush pulled aside Senator Kennedy, and they went into a room off the Oval Office to talk about immigration.

A month later, Senator Jon Kyl, a conservative Republican from Arizona who would become an important figure in striking the deal, began meeting with other Republicans and administration officials to explore ways to find a legislative response to an issue with potent political and humanitarian ramifications.

When those talks progressed far enough, the Republicans on March 28 invited in Democrats like Mr. Kennedy, a longtime advocate of immigration changes, and Senators Ken Salazar of Colorado and Robert Menendez of New Jersey. What followed was a series of meetings around the Capitol, typically on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights, as the lawmakers, staff members, White House officials and two or three cabinet secretaries immersed themselves in immigration rules as part of unusually direct high-level negotiations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/washington/19immig.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2f Subjects%2fI%2fImmigration%20and%20Refugees

I disagree with the amnesty provisions, but something has to be done. The bankruptcy of the current system and current bill is summed up in this op-ed piece:

As the most attractive land for would-be immigrants, America has the equivalent of the first 100 picks in the NBA draft. Yet through lax border control and sheer inertia, it allows those slots to be filled by (with apologies to Bill Buckley) the first 100 names in the San Salvador phone book....

Enforcement at the border is all bureaucratic inputs and fancy gadgets: principally, a doubling of the Border Patrol to 28,000, lots of high-tech sensors and four unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). And 370 miles of fence -- half of what Congress had mandated last year.

The amnesty is triggered upon presidential certification that these bureaucratic benchmarks are met -- regardless of what is actually happening at the border. What vacuous nonsense

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/24/AR2007052402035.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 02:28 PM
..and again dont let the facts get in the way of your debate....:dang:....just use emotion...and nasty remarks to drown out the articles I just posted....or better yet..take the initiative to do a little internet search and see how twisted it is to claim Bush and the republicans welcom the legalization of illegal immigrants over the democrats.

What?

Bush is the one pushing this bill in press conferences! How is that not the Republican Party pushing this terrible piece of crap legislation?

SteelCityMan786
05-25-2007, 02:37 PM
What?

Bush is the one pushing this bill in press conferences! How is that not the Republican Party pushing this terrible piece of crap legislation?

That's just one person doing that. Not the whole party.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 02:38 PM
That's just one person doing that. Not the whole party.

He's the leader of the damn party!!

Atlanta Dan
05-25-2007, 02:45 PM
That's just one person doing that. Not the whole party.

Senator Kyl (R) from Arizona is one of the major sponsors. Trent Lott (Senate minority whip) is pushing for passage as well:

The No. 2 Republican in the Senate made an all-out pitch for support of a comprehensive immigration bill on Wednesday as the Senate voted to reduce the size of a proposed guest worker program, infuriating employers.

The Republican, Senator Trent Lott of Mississippi, was not part of the bipartisan group of 12 senators who negotiated the “grand bargain” on immigration with the White House. But on Wednesday Mr. Lott defended the deal, which has come under heavy fire from the right and the left.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/washington/24immig.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fI% 2fImmigration%20and%20Refugees&oref=slogin

The Dems have made it clear that they are not going to allow this to be a Bush + congressional Democrats bill, with the GOP Congress running against the bill in 2008 as a Democrat idea while Bush is finally getting packed off to Crawford and the GOP no longer needs to defer to him.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 02:49 PM
Senator Kyl (R) from Arizona is one of the major sponsors. Trent Lott (Senate minority whip) is pushing for passage as well:

The No. 2 Republican in the Senate made an all-out pitch for support of a comprehensive immigration bill on Wednesday as the Senate voted to reduce the size of a proposed guest worker program, infuriating employers.

The Republican, Senator Trent Lott of Mississippi, was not part of the bipartisan group of 12 senators who negotiated the ?grand bargain? on immigration with the White House. But on Wednesday Mr. Lott defended the deal, which has come under heavy fire from the right and the left.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/washington/24immig.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fI% 2fImmigration%20and%20Refugees&oref=slogin

The Dems have made it clear that they are not going to allow this to be a Bush + congressional Democrats bill, with the GOP Congress running against the bill in 2008 as a Democrat idea while Bush is finally getting packed off to Crawford and the GOP no longer needs to defer to him.


This is simply a bad piece of legislation. The worst part for me is that one of the "Gang of 12" pushing this bill through is none other than our esteemed Senator Arlen Specter.

SteelCityMan786
05-25-2007, 02:52 PM
He's the leader of the damn party!!

And all of us Republicans are tired of him.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 02:53 PM
And all of us Republicans are tired of him.

Tired or not, he's yours. Plus you have Trent Lott, Arlen Specter, John McCain, John Kyl, etc lined up behind this bill like a chorus line. The Repubs want the Latino vote so bad they can taste it.

Hammer67
05-25-2007, 02:56 PM
Tired or not, he's yours. Plus you have Trent Lott, Arlen Specter, John McCain, John Kyl, etc lined up behind this bill like a chorus line. The Repubs want the Latino vote so bad they can taste it.

Sickening, if you ask me. While I don't doubt Bush's strategies in leading the US out of potential economic disaster after 9/11, he has made major gaffes on the homefront with things like Katrina response and this Immigration reform crap. They wouldn't need it if they just enforced the laws as written.

tony hipchest
05-25-2007, 02:59 PM
And all of us Republicans are tired of him.we can pretty much say the last 2 elections were essentially divided 50/50 (very close elections). if Bush still carries a 30-35% approval rating its fair to assume 60-70% of those who voted for him still approve.

Atlanta Dan
05-25-2007, 03:14 PM
we can pretty much say the last 2 elections were essentially divided 50/50 (very close elections). if Bush still carries a 30-35% approval rating its fair to assume 60-70% of those who voted for him still approve.

Good call T.H.

According to the Gallup Poll, Bush has a tracking average approval rating of 35% for 2007, which breaks out with tracking average approval ratings of 75% among Republicans and 9% (I am surprised it is that high) among Democrats.

Over the course of his administration, Bush's job approval ratings among Republicans have only fallen 20 points from his high point in 2002 to the latest average, his lowest, in the first five months of this year. By comparison, Bush's approval rating has dropped 40 points among independents and 45 points among Democrats.

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=27658

Maybe the Republicans who were polled thought they were being asked about the job performance of W's Dad.

HometownGal
05-25-2007, 03:26 PM
And all of us Republicans are tired of him.

I am one GOP'r who isn't and I'm not embarrassed to say it publicly. I don't agree with what he is trying to do here, nor have I agreed with everything he says or does, but I can't say that I disagree with everything he has done either. My family and everyone I hold dear has been safe since 911 and no matter what else he's done, I take that as his biggest accomplishment.

Hammer67
05-25-2007, 03:31 PM
Good call T.H.

According to the Gallup Poll, Bush has a tracking average approval rating of 35% for 2007, which breaks out with tracking average approval ratings of 75% among Republicans and 9% (I am surprised it is that high) among Democrats.

Over the course of his administration, Bush's job approval ratings among Republicans have only fallen 20 points from his high point in 2002 to the latest average, his lowest, in the first five months of this year. By comparison, Bush's approval rating has dropped 40 points among independents and 45 points among Democrats.

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=27658

Maybe the Republicans who were polled thought they were being asked about the job performance of W's Dad.


All true, but it is real hard to judge a sitting president as many policies and laws really aren't fully felt for years after they leave office. I would say give it 20 years before you look back and judge what Clinton and Bush have done over the last 10 or 15 years.

Abraham Lincoln wasn't very popular while he was in office. In fact he was hated by many. Only years later were his policies and decisions really dissected.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 03:34 PM
All true, but it is real hard to judge a sitting president as many policies and laws really aren't fully felt for years after they leave office. I would say give it 20 years before you look back and judge what Clinton and Bush have done over the last 10 or 15 years.

Abraham Lincoln wasn't very popular while he was in office. In fact he was hated by many. Only years later were his policies and decisions really dissected.

Lincoln is still hated by a lot of people.

Atlanta Dan
05-25-2007, 03:49 PM
All true, but it is real hard to judge a sitting president as many policies and laws really aren't fully felt for years after they leave office. I would say give it 20 years before you look back and judge what Clinton and Bush have done over the last 10 or 15 years.

Abraham Lincoln wasn't very popular while he was in office. In fact he was hated by many. Only years later were his policies and decisions really dissected.

I agree. The poll did not ask whether the voters thought history would approve of W; they were asked whether they currently approve of his performance.

Everything can change over time; Harding is generally regarded as a rotten President who was wildly popular at the time of his death whereas W is constantly comparing himself to Truman, who was at rock bottom when he left office but is regarded today as having been an excellent President. OTOH, Carter was seen to be a wretched President when he left office and his reputation has stayed in the dumpster.

My guess is W will be regarded more like LBJ than Truman in terms of wartime Presidents, but who knows. Decisions are being made today for which the consequences will not play out for decades.

As a perhaps apocryphal story goes, during the 1960s, a delegation of French politicians visited Beijing and met the Chinese premier, Zhou Enlai. One of the Frenchmen asked the premier what he thought about the impact of the French Revolution on the course of world history. Zhou Enlai responded: "You know, I think it is too early to tell."

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 04:07 PM
No surprise that Bush compares himself to the most redneck President we've ever had.

MasterOfPuppets
05-25-2007, 04:48 PM
we could build the american version of "The Great Wall of China" but unfortunately we would need illegal foreign manpower to accomplish such a task. :hunch:

catch 22

tony,i don't think you realize how many AMERICAN construction worker are put out of work by illegals. i know because i'm one of them. it burns my ass everytime i here "there only doing jobs that americans don't wanna do"....BULLSHIT!!!!. on my last visit to the unemployment office,i passed a construction site and seen no less than 20 mexicans doing my job !!! i live in a small town of about 20,000 where jobs are pretty scarce, so for myself and local contractors to miss out on jobs because an outside contractor can afford to under bid the job because they hire illegals .....well lets just say it doesn't sit to well with me.

tony hipchest
05-25-2007, 05:50 PM
tony,i don't think you realize how many AMERICAN construction worker are put out of work by illegals. i know because i'm one of them. it burns my ass everytime i here "there only doing jobs that americans don't wanna do"....BULLSHIT!!!!. on my last visit to the unemployment office,i passed a construction site and seen no less than 20 mexicans doing my job !!! i live in a small town of about 20,000 where jobs are pretty scarce, so for myself and local contractors to miss out on jobs because an outside contractor can afford to under bid the job because they hire illegals .....well lets just say it doesn't sit to well with me.my post was total sarcasm. i live in a small town 90 miles from the boarder and we are in the middle of a construction boom to accomodate the growth of our local air force base. i definitely see (and agree with) what youre saying.

but as an employer who has had atleast 50 aliens come and go (all legal or permanent residents) i have literally and figuratively seen both sides of the fence. i would be out of work if i tried to hire cheap labor and undercut other bidders, though. of course government contracts are scrutinized and policed much more than non government contract jobs (especially in construction).

theres the stereotype that the illegals only come over to be gardeners in hollywood hills or pick lettuce in the arizona boarderlands. (this stereotype is excellent for the business owners who hire them in other higher paying industries for minimum wage). i recognize that aliens take legitimate work from hard working americans and think it sucks.

i also recognize that when the price of gas, milk and cigarettes has doubled in the past 12 years and minimum wage has stayed the same, somethings got to give. the risk is simply too rewarding for business owners to take the chance and hire cheap illegal labor for someone to go out and bust their balls and break their back for "minimum wage" or cheaper.

SteelCityMan786
05-25-2007, 06:05 PM
Tired or not, he's yours. Plus you have Trent Lott, Arlen Specter, John McCain, John Kyl, etc lined up behind this bill like a chorus line. The Repubs want the Latino vote so bad they can taste it.

Don't remind us.

Another thing is, don't you think the Democrats want there share of votes as well? After all next year they're trying to keep control of both houses of congress while trying to take the white house.

I personally want a change in Illegal Immigration like some people, but I want to make sure it works FOR ALL.

revefsreleets
05-25-2007, 08:07 PM
Which all goes back to this being a complicated issue, but somehow I became a bleeding hearted lefty for pointing out that it's wrong to shoot 20,000,000 for being where we allowed them to be in the first place.

This legislation has boiled down to be being better than nothing, which was exactly what we had before it. I think it's crappy, too, but the logistics of removing 20,000,000 people has moved beyond what we are capable of doing.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 08:38 PM
Which all goes back to this being a complicated issue, but somehow I became a bleeding hearted lefty for pointing out that it's wrong to shoot 20,000,000 for being where we allowed them to be in the first place.

This legislation has boiled down to be being better than nothing, which was exactly what we had before it. I think it's crappy, too, but the logistics of removing 20,000,000 people has moved beyond what we are capable of doing.

We never allowed them to be here. They were here because they were breaking the law.

revefsreleets
05-25-2007, 08:53 PM
We never allowed them to be here. They were here because they were breaking the law.

Um, if we didn't allow them to be here, then we must have done something to remove them, right? Then why are there 20,000,000 illegals here now? It could be that it was a really complicated issue that nobody could exactly figure out how to tackle, right?

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 08:55 PM
Um, if we didn't allow them to be here, then we must have done something to remove them, right? Then why are there 20,000,000 illegals here now? It could be that it was a really complicated issue that nobody could exactly figure out how to tackle, right?

Or it could be the bleeding hearts didn't let law enforcement do their jobs.

revefsreleets
05-25-2007, 08:57 PM
Shoot them? I give up.

Preacher
05-25-2007, 09:00 PM
Um, if we didn't allow them to be here, then we must have done something to remove them, right? Then why are there 20,000,000 illegals here now? It could be that it was a really complicated issue that nobody could exactly figure out how to tackle, right?

I think your point falls under the.... lying by OMISSION type of argument. There are two ways to lie.. Committing the lie, and Omitting something... and therefore lying. The second is easier, but is still lying.

I think your saying the same logic applies. We could have actively allowed them to come, by passing laws to that effect, or passively allowed them to come, by prosecuting the law to its fullest. Either way, it is still allowing them to come.

Your right. It was our fault in that sense. However, that doesn't negate the fact that the law itself was still violated and thus the action was still illegal. Whether we accept the illegal action and deem it legal is what is being argued now.

Just wanted to get in those two cents...

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 09:02 PM
Shoot them? I give up.

That's exactly what the rest of the country wants to do by granting them amnesty. Tell you what, when one of these hard working immigrants commits a crime against you or a member of your family you'll understand how I feel about the issue.

tony hipchest
05-25-2007, 09:16 PM
That's exactly what the rest of the country wants to do by granting them amnesty. Tell you what, when one of these hard working immigrants commits a crime against you or a member of your family you'll understand how I feel about the issue.so out of approx 300,000,000 people living in the states, approx 20,000,000 are illegal. are you saying that more than 1 out of every 15 crimes is commited by an illegal alien?

of course all are commiting crime by just being here, but for the sake of debate, i am suggesting that i am just as fearful of an american criminal as i am of an illegal alien criminal.

SteelCityMan786
05-25-2007, 09:21 PM
so out of approx 300,000,000 people living in the states, approx 20,000,000 are illegal. are you saying that more than 1 out of every 15 crimes is commited by an illegal alien?

of course all are commiting crime by just being here, but for the sake of debate, i am suggesting that i am just as fearful of an american criminal as i am of an illegal alien criminal.

We had a case of that in Altoona. An illegal immigrant from Mexico went on a murder spree. I think he was jailed and put on death penalty. Not sure what the sentence was.

Jeremy
05-25-2007, 09:23 PM
so out of approx 300,000,000 people living in the states, approx 20,000,000 are illegal. are you saying that more than 1 out of every 15 crimes is commited by an illegal alien?

of course all are commiting crime by just being here, but for the sake of debate, i am suggesting that i am just as fearful of an american criminal as i am of an illegal alien criminal.

I've known too many people here in Tucson who have had property stolen, been mugged, etc by illegals to feel safe in any area where the immigrant population is a large one. I'm sure that bleeding heart will come back around and call me racist, but I know what I know.

The one and only reason I'd think of supporting this bill would be so illegals would have to give out their real addresses so police could so their jobs and hospitals could get their money for services rendered.

I'm out of this now......it's too emotional for me and I might write something I'll regret.

MasterOfPuppets
05-26-2007, 02:26 AM
actually there's a very simple solution to the problem. why are they here?....$$$$$. who's breaking the law besides the illegals? the people that give them jobs!!! so why not go after the root of the problem! if uncle sam started handing out serious punishments to employers found with illegals on thier payroll, like loosing thier business liscence along with seizing assets...this would be a non issue, becauce they would leave voluntarily if life was no better here than in there country. do rats take up vacancy where there is no food supply? this is a freakin no brainer solution!

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-26-2007, 10:05 AM
What?

Bush is the one pushing this bill in press conferences! How is that not the Republican Party pushing this terrible piece of crap legislation?

My point wa that it is wrong to "label" the Republicans as seeling this country out when the Dems are far softer on this issue....You seemed to have missed the post that explained what I was saying...let me try again....and then YOU can decide who is softer on Illegal immigrants....Please read the following stories from online news sources.

]...............Both Lieberman and Gephardt have sponsored bills that would allow all illegal immigrants in the country to earn legalization, if they have been in the country working for five years and pass a background check.

That "earned legalization" approached is also endorsed by the front-runner in the Democratic president race, Howard Dean.
"My view is if you've lived here for a significant period of time -- whether you're undocumented or documented -- and you have contributed to your community, you have never been arrested or gone to jail or any of that stuff, and you've paid your taxes and worked hard, that you ought to have a path to earn legalization of citizenship and so forth," Dean said at an appearance in Iowa.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, said he "absolutely" supported the goal of legalizing undocumented workers. ....CNN.COM




...Top congressional Democrats formally unveiled an immigration plan Tuesday that they say is as much about legalizing millions of undocumented workers as it is about forcing the Republicans to deliver specifics about a guest-worker proposal pushed by President Bush.

"I wish President Bush would stop talking about his immigration 'principles' and talk about specifics," said Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., co-sponsor of the Democrats' immigration bill. "Our bill is about specifics, and voters can judge for themselves which proposal would truly reform our nation's immigration laws."

The Democrats' bill, dubbed the Safe, Orderly, Legal Visas and Enforcement Act, would allow illegal immigrants to qualify for a green card or permanent legal residence if they proved they had lived in the United States for five consecutive years and had worked here at least two years.

Earlier this year, Bush proposed a guest-worker program that would give millions of undocumented immigrants temporary legal status for six years or longer. But they would not be eligible for permanent residency.

The plan hasn't been drafted into legislation, but officials say it represents a reasonable compromise between those who want to shut the country's doors to immigrants and those who want to swing the doors open.

The Democrats are pushing the administration, banking that millions of Hispanic voters will view immigration as a make-or-break issue in this year's presidential election.

"Our bill makes the debate over immigration very clear to voters in November," said Rep. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., another co-sponsor of the bill. "It's about choosing to support a proposal that would legalize undocumented immigrants or one that seeks to deport them."......azcentral.com

Hammer67
05-26-2007, 10:21 AM
so out of approx 300,000,000 people living in the states, approx 20,000,000 are illegal. are you saying that more than 1 out of every 15 crimes is commited by an illegal alien?

of course all are commiting crime by just being here, but for the sake of debate, i am suggesting that i am just as fearful of an american criminal as i am of an illegal alien criminal.


True, but the underlying theme here is our tax dollars have to pay to incarcerate them, our health care costs rise when they go to an emergency room or get government benefits. THey are not directly paying into the tax pool, yet can benefit from it or are supported by it.

Jeremy
05-26-2007, 10:47 AM
My point wa that it is wrong to "label" the Republicans as seeling this country out when the Dems are far softer on this issue....You seemed to have missed the post that explained what I was saying...let me try again....and then YOU can decide who is softer on Illegal immigrants....Please read the following stories from online news sources.

So because the Bleeding Heart Democrats are softer means we should give BushCo a free pass on pushing this crappy legislation?

Sounds like a really sorry set of choices.

Atlanta Dan
05-26-2007, 11:05 AM
My point wa that it is wrong to "label" the Republicans as seeling this country out when the Dems are far softer on this issue....You seemed to have missed the post that explained what I was saying...let me try again....and then YOU can decide who is softer on Illegal immigrants....Please read the following stories from online news sources.

I could give you a laundry list of quotes from GOP officials that are just as "soft" as the Dems on immigration, as well as referring you to the litany of editorials in the Wall Street Journal (no friend of the Democrats) that tout the benefits of immigration.

Immigration is one of those issues that cuts across party lines - it most directly has an adverse impact on less economically advantaged individuals who compete with immigrants for less desirable jobs (a traditional Democratic constituency) and most directly benefits employers who can keep wages down by hiring immigrants (a traditional GOP constituency).

Balanced against that are the concerns of "social" conservatives (whom the GOP has been promising the moon and the stars for 25 years while delivering little in return for their votes) regarding the impact of immigrants upon the social fabric as opposed to liberals who instinctively feel a need to reach out to immigrants as another "disadvantaged" group.

Add to that both parties lusting after the growing Hispanic vote and it is hard to cast one party as the "pro-immigrant" party and the other party as the "anti-immigrant" party.

Realistically, deporting the illegals is not going to happen - the consensus in opposition to the current bill appears to be growing around really securing the borders and only then working on assimilating the illegals who are here.

Peggy Noonan has a well written articulation of this position in the linked article in the Wall Street Journal.

We should stop, slow down and absorb. We should sit and settle. We should do what you do after eating an eight-course meal. We should digest what we've eaten.

We should close our borders. We should do whatever it takes to close them tight and solid. Will that take the Army? Then send the Army. Does it mean building a wall? Then build a wall, but the wall must have doors, which can be opened a little or a lot down the road once we know where we are. Should all legal immigration stop? No. We should make a list of what our nation needs, such as engineers and nurses, and then admit a lot of engineers and nurses. We should take in what we need to survive and flourish.

As we end illegal immigration, we should set ourselves to the Americanization of the immigrants we have. They haven't only joined a place of riches, it's a place of meaning. We must teach them what it is they've joined and why it is good and what is expected of them and what is owed. We stopped Americanizing ourselves 40 years ago. We've got to start telling the story of our country again. ...

Here is the truth: America has never deported millions of people, and America will never deport millions of people. It's not what we do. It's not who we are. It's not who we want to be. The American people would never accept evening news pictures of sobbing immigrants being torn from their homes and put on a bus. We wouldn't accept it because we have hearts, and as much as we try to see history in the abstract, we know history comes down to the particular, to the sobbing child in the bus. We don't round up and remove. Nor should we, tomorrow, on one of our whims, grant full legal status and a Cadillac car. We take it a day at a time. We wait and see what's happening. We do the small discrete things a nation can do to make the overall situation better. For instance: "You commit a violent crime? You are so out of here." And, "Here, let me help you learn English."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-26-2007, 11:27 AM
.

...Add to that both parties lusting after the growing Hispanic vote and it is hard to cast one party as the "pro-immigrant" party and the other party as the "anti-immigrant" party.



AWWWWW! (big sigh of relief)...thank you Dan for a fair, fact based rebuttal...I may not agree with everything you said, but it is refreshing to have a well thought out response without the words "Suck" or "Drink the Kool-aid" ....for the record, I HAVE an immigration plan...as I have stated in another thread....I know we cant afford to build a wall between us and Mexico...so....I have proposed that we just keep track of every hard-working Hispanic that comes into our country.... and send an equal amount of lazy, working age Welfare recipients back their way.....THEY will build the wall!!!!:wink02:

Jeremy
05-26-2007, 12:09 PM
AWWWWW! (big sigh of relief)...thank you Dan for a fair, fact based rebuttal...I may not agree with everything you said, but it is refreshing to have a well thought out response without the words "Suck" or "Drink the Kool-aid" ....for the record, I HAVE an immigration plan...as I have stated in another thread....I know we cant afford to build a wall between us and Mexico...so....I have proposed that we just keep track of every hard-working Hispanic that comes into our country.... and send an equal amount of lazy, working age Welfare recipients back their way.....THEY will build the wall!!!!:wink02:

I didn't use suck or kool ade in my posts? I must be slipping.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-26-2007, 12:15 PM
I didn't use suck or kool ade in my posts? I must be slipping.

LOL...wasnt talking about you Jeremy.

Jeremy
05-26-2007, 12:40 PM
LOL...wasnt talking about you Jeremy.

Sorry. I'm a pretty popular target around here the last few days. It might be time to take a break from posting.

GBMelBlount
05-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Sorry. I'm a pretty popular target around here the last few days. It might be time to take a break from posting.

Jeremy, don't stop posting. Your posts are relevant. I am a LLT fan and agree with most everything he says.....but it doesn't mean you don't have a right to voice your opinion & that your opinion might not be right! I have learned alot from locker room & blast furnace. The main thing is that there are many people who i disagee with that have very valid points I've never considered. Glad your a SF member!

SteelCityMan786
05-26-2007, 11:32 PM
Sorry. I'm a pretty popular target around here the last few days. It might be time to take a break from posting.

Jeremy, no need to take a break, your views are just as important as everyone else. Do what suits you though.

Atlanta Dan
06-01-2007, 01:41 PM
Nobody has more solid credentials as a Reagan Republican than the Gipper's speeechwriter Peggy Noonan. For this reason, this complete smackdown of W (with a sideswipe ar Bush I while she is at it) indicates W may be well on the way to alienating the entire spectrum of political opinion in the U.S. (he took care of the rest of the world some time ago).

President Bush has torn the conservative coalition asunder.

The White House doesn't need its traditional supporters anymore, because its problems are way beyond being solved by the base. And the people in the administration don't even much like the base. Desperate straits have left them liberated, and they are acting out their disdain. Leading Democrats often think their base is slightly mad but at least their heart is in the right place. This White House thinks its base is stupid and that its heart is in the wrong place.

For almost three years, arguably longer, conservative Bush supporters have felt like sufferers of battered wife syndrome. You don't like endless gushing spending, the kind that assumes a high and unstoppable affluence will always exist, and the tax receipts will always flow in? Too bad! You don't like expanding governmental authority and power? Too bad. You think the war was wrong or is wrong? Too bad.

But on immigration it has changed from "Too bad" to "You're bad." ...

The beginning of my own sense of separation from the Bush administration came in January 2005, when the president declared that it is now the policy of the United States to eradicate tyranny in the world, and that the survival of American liberty is dependent on the liberty of every other nation. This was at once so utopian and so aggressive that it shocked me. For others the beginning of distance might have been Katrina and the incompetence it revealed, or the depth of the mishandling and misjudgments of Iraq.

What I came in time to believe is that the great shortcoming of this White House, the great thing it is missing, is simple wisdom. Just wisdom--a sense that they did not invent history, that this moment is not all there is, that man has lived a long time and there are things that are true of him, that maturity is not the same thing as cowardice, that personal loyalty is not a good enough reason to put anyone in charge of anything, that the way it works in politics is a friend becomes a loyalist becomes a hack, and actually at this point in history we don't need hacks.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

rbryan
06-01-2007, 01:55 PM
AWWWWW! (big sigh of relief)...thank you Dan for a fair, fact based rebuttal...I may not agree with everything you said, but it is refreshing to have a well thought out response without the words "Suck" or "Drink the Kool-aid" ....for the record, I HAVE an immigration plan...as I have stated in another thread....I know we cant afford to build a wall between us and Mexico...so....I have proposed that we just keep track of every hard-working Hispanic that comes into our country.... and send an equal amount of lazy, working age Welfare recipients back their way.....THEY will build the wall!!!!:wink02:

If we took everyone on welfare in the state of Texas,Arizona,New Mexico, and Calif they could build the wall over a long weekend. I'll bring the beer.

Mosca
06-01-2007, 02:05 PM
Thanks for that link, AD.


Tom

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
06-01-2007, 02:17 PM
We are headed in the wrong direciton. thats for sure....

Im not much of a political man.........but I think the country better think about the next person they elect into office..........Please let that person be sm arter thatn George Bush, and hopefully have enough knowledge to lead out country as a superpower.

stlrtruck
06-01-2007, 03:40 PM
What kills me is that people look directly at the President for the things that are happening in this country or better yet for some of the things that aren't happening in this country. As much as the President is in the forefront, I honestly believe that, some people do not hold Congress accountable for the bills & laws that are passed. And all along they just want to blame the President.

Yes, I believe that the President does hold a lot of responsibility but so does congress and everyone wants to seem to give them a free pass. I agree with what was stated earlier that this country needs a leader to take hold of the reigns that have fallen and lead this country as a super power.

Here is the truth: America has never deported millions of people, and America will never deport millions of people. It's not what we do. It's not who we are. It's not who we want to be. The American people would never accept evening news pictures of sobbing immigrants being torn from their homes and put on a bus. We wouldn't accept it because we have hearts, and as much as we try to see history in the abstract, we know history comes down to the particular, to the sobbing child in the bus. We don't round up and remove. Nor should we, tomorrow, on one of our whims, grant full legal status and a Cadillac car. We take it a day at a time. We wait and see what's happening. We do the small discrete things a nation can do to make the overall situation better. For instance: "You commit a violent crime? You are so out of here." And, "Here, let me help you learn English."

Honestly, I wouldn't shed a tear if thousands of illegal immigrants were put on a bus, plane, train, or some other mode of transportation and shipped back to their home land. I have no problem with legal immigrants, because let's face it, somewhere in our family line most of us were immigrants at one time or another. However, when illegal immigrants are getting better care than my own family and they have a chance to receive better services and benefits and perks than my own - then I have a problem (but that also goes back to the government's actions or lack there of).

I have my own answers as to solving the immigration problem but I'm sure they wouldn't be popular with many of those who sign off on the legalization of such actions. It doesn't involve any haneous (sp) acts but it does hold people accountable.

Atlanta Dan
06-01-2007, 04:23 PM
What kills me is that people look directly at the President for the things that are happening in this country or better yet for some of the things that aren't happening in this country. As much as the President is in the forefront, I honestly believe that, some people do not hold Congress accountable for the bills & laws that are passed. And all along they just want to blame the President.

Hard to argue Noonan has always been part of the blame Bush first crowd, as evidenced by this valentine she wrote after the 2004 election:

God bless our country.

Hello, old friends. Let us savor....

And now the president is speaking. He announced his agenda: reform the tax code, privatize Social Security, help the emerging democracies of Iraq and Afghanistan. "And then our servicemen and -women will come home with the honor they have earned."

"Today I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. . . . I need your support. . . . I will do all that I can do to earn your trust. . . . We have one country, one Constitution, and one future that binds us." All good. Savor

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110005844

Peggy - those were the days, eh?:sofunny:

W led a GOP Congress around by the nose for 6 years and the Dems have controlled Congress with a non-veto proof majority for less than 5 months - IMHO Bush takes the hit for what has happened politically since he took office with Rove's "you are with me or with the terrorists" approach to governing and has himself to blame for the growing and apparently across the board alienation from his policies.

Stlrs4Life
06-01-2007, 06:50 PM
Hard to argue Noonan has always been part of the blame Bush first crowd, as evidenced by this valentine she wrote after the 2004 election:

God bless our country.

Hello, old friends. Let us savor....

And now the president is speaking. He announced his agenda: reform the tax code, privatize Social Security, help the emerging democracies of Iraq and Afghanistan. "And then our servicemen and -women will come home with the honor they have earned."

"Today I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. . . . I need your support. . . . I will do all that I can do to earn your trust. . . . We have one country, one Constitution, and one future that binds us." All good. Savor

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110005844

Peggy - those were the days, eh?:sofunny:

W led a GOP Congress around by the nose for 6 years and the Dems have controlled Congress with a non-veto proof majority for less than 5 months - IMHO Bush takes the hit for what has happened politically since he took office with Rove's "you are with me or with the terrorists" approach to governing and has himself to blame for the growing and apparently across the board alienation from his policies.



Amen!

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
06-02-2007, 12:15 AM
Yes, unfortuently we have had a republican congress.......AKA the "do nuthing congress"
Hopefully the democrats will tise to the challenge

Jeremy
06-03-2007, 01:57 PM
Here is the truth: America has never deported millions of people, and America will never deport millions of people. It's not what we do. It's not who we are. It's not who we want to be. The American people would never accept evening news pictures of sobbing immigrants being torn from their homes and put on a bus. We wouldn't accept it because we have hearts, and as much as we try to see history in the abstract, we know history comes down to the particular, to the sobbing child in the bus. We don't round up and remove. Nor should we, tomorrow, on one of our whims, grant full legal status and a Cadillac car. We take it a day at a time. We wait and see what's happening. We do the small discrete things a nation can do to make the overall situation better. For instance: "You commit a violent crime? You are so out of here." And, "Here, let me help you learn English."

Wait a second. What people like me want to do is send them back to their homes. This idea of America as their homes is as ridiculous as a criminal calling his jail cell home. I couldn't care less if they're sobbing. There are laws and these people broke them. Allowing them to stay here is akin to going to bank robber and telling him that not only is he released from prison, but we're going to return to him all the money he stole.

There is a place for immigration in America. This country is here because of immigrants. My own family comes from Germany and Lithuania. I know their history. But they came to this country as legal immigrants. As someone who's never had anything more than a parking ticket, it's hard for me to sympathize with people who are openly breaking the law. Besides, this bill assumes that most of the people here want to actually be citizens. This is simply untrue. Do you know why people marched in LA with Mexican flags? Because they don't want to stop being Mexicans. All they want is to come here and work. No citizenship, just jobs. Until we can deal with that reality, we'll never be able to deal with the immigration problem.

Godfather
06-03-2007, 02:41 PM
Please let that person be sm arter thatn George Bush

Don't worry. Everyone running meets that standard :sofunny:

verks36
06-03-2007, 03:11 PM
This whole bill is ridiculous. I cant bielive the american people are even thinking about this. This people are not educated this people are good for nothing criminals taking away work from are lower class. Instead i hope we crack down and send ever illegal back home. If they want citizenship so badly then do it legally instead of bitching about it.

I say we pass a bill to build a gaint wall that blocks ever illegal from coming in

fansince'76
06-03-2007, 03:14 PM
Sorry verks, that T-shirt image was a bit over the line and I had to yank it.

Hammer67
06-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Instead of granting amnesty, they should be sent back to figure out what's wrong with Mexico. Jesus, they have beautiful beaches and wonderful tourism potential. They should have a great economy sitting next to the US. Canada seems to be doing just fine. I live right on the US Canadian border and work with some Canadien folks who commute every day. They all do it legally, with work visa's etc. Why can't Mexicans?

Just sign the form on your way in, thanks!!!

SteelCityMan786
06-03-2007, 04:42 PM
Instead of granting amnesty, they should be sent back to figure out what's wrong with Mexico. Jesus, they have beautiful beaches and wonderful tourism potential. They should have a great economy sitting next to the US. Canada seems to be doing just fine. I live right on the US Canadian border and work with some Canadien folks who commute every day. They all do it legally, with work visa's etc. Why can't Mexicans?

Just sign the form on your way in, thanks!!!

Yep, it's as easy as that.

Jeremy
06-03-2007, 05:43 PM
I'll say this and then I'll be done. We owe these people who are here illegally. We owe them a solution. If they want to work, we owe them a plan where they can work and still contribute taxes. If they want to become citizens, we owe them something that can set them on the path. And if they're here to leach from our society, we owe them a plane ticket home.

SteelCityMan786
06-03-2007, 05:47 PM
I'll say this and then I'll be done. We owe these people who are here illegally. We owe them a solution. If they want to work, we owe them a plan where they can work and still contribute taxes. If they want to become citizens, we owe them something that can set them on the path. And if they're here to leach from our society, we owe them a plane ticket home.

Have to agree.

They want to be here, they follow our rules. I have no problem if they're here, just follow the rules like all legal immigrants.

Atlanta Dan
06-03-2007, 06:01 PM
I'll say this and then I'll be done. We owe these people who are here illegally. We owe them a solution. If they want to work, we owe them a plan where they can work and still contribute taxes. If they want to become citizens, we owe them something that can set them on the path. And if they're here to leach from our society, we owe them a plane ticket home.

:iagree:

I believe Peggy Noonan had the best proposal in the earlier column I posted from which Jeremy quotes (not the one this week where she announces her divorce from W, although I obviously agree with those thoughts as well).

Job #1 is to secure the borders and halt the flood of illegal immigrants -then we figure out how to deal with those immigrants who are here illegally. My concern is that any effort to deport every illegal will be about as effective and costly as "the war" on drugs.

Preacher
06-04-2007, 03:26 PM
LIke i posted in another thread.

This is neither a republican or democrat problem, it is both.

We have had illegal immigration for decades, through Republican AND democratic presidents, through Democratic AND Republican senates, and NOTHING has been done.

This is a politician problem. Not a Republican or Democrat problem.

Stlrs4Life
06-04-2007, 08:48 PM
LIke i posted in another thread.

This is neither a republican or democrat problem, it is both.

We have had illegal immigration for decades, through Republican AND democratic presidents, through Democratic AND Republican senates, and NOTHING has been done.

This is a politician problem. Not a Republican or Democrat problem.


Exactly!

verks36
06-09-2007, 12:20 AM
Sorry verks, that T-shirt image was a bit over the line and I had to yank it.

Ya i see your point but i just cant stand illegal immgration it is so stupid. Just become citizens legally and get off your lazy poublo ass house and walk to the boarder and filll a sheet and wait a couple years and bam citizen

verks36
06-09-2007, 12:22 AM
sorry for the double post but

if we legalize all illegal imgrants then every single mexican will be running like madfire into the us so they can be a citizen.
We might as well adopt mexico as the 51rst state

Godfather
06-09-2007, 09:22 PM
We might as well adopt mexico as the 51rst state

Not a bad idea...then we have a much shorter southern border to defend!

silver & black
06-10-2007, 09:09 AM
Instead of granting amnesty, they should be sent back to figure out what's wrong with Mexico. Jesus, they have beautiful beaches and wonderful tourism potential. They should have a great economy sitting next to the US. Canada seems to be doing just fine. I live right on the US Canadian border and work with some Canadien folks who commute every day. They all do it legally, with work visa's etc. Why can't Mexicans?

Just sign the form on your way in, thanks!!!

I hate talking politics... it always gets ugly, but I have to agree with you on this. Good post. :cheers:

silver & black
06-10-2007, 09:11 AM
LIke i posted in another thread.

This is neither a republican or democrat problem, it is both.

We have had illegal immigration for decades, through Republican AND democratic presidents, through Democratic AND Republican senates, and NOTHING has been done.

This is a politician problem. Not a Republican or Democrat problem.

Another good post, and right on the money. :cheers:

SteelCityMan786
06-10-2007, 10:31 AM
LIke i posted in another thread.

This is neither a republican or democrat problem, it is both.

We have had illegal immigration for decades, through Republican AND democratic presidents, through Democratic AND Republican senates, and NOTHING has been done.

This is a politician problem. Not a Republican or Democrat problem.

ROCK ON PREACHER! :jammin:

Preacher just stated something almost no one keeps in mind, there are two political parties in congress, NOT 1! All politicians have to work together to move the country forward. NOT JUST ONE PARTY ALONE!

Preacher
06-11-2007, 04:49 AM
ROCK ON PREACHER! :jammin:

Preacher just stated something almost no one keeps in mind, there are two political parties in congress, NOT 1! All politicians have to work together to move the country forward. NOT JUST ONE PARTY ALONE!

Thanks...

And sadly, both parties care too much about staying in power and not enough in leading the nation. I REALLY beleive that this latest version of all for me and none for you started in the 1990's, with the head to head of Clinton and Newt. Somehow, while I DON'T... Thats right... DON'T beleive THEY were pushing towards it, those who rode on thier coat tails turned the entire thing into a zero-sum game.