PDA

View Full Version : Busted!! #24, 48 fail inspection at Sonoma


Fire Haley
06-22-2007, 04:23 PM
SONOMA, Calif. -- Nextel Cup points leader Jeff Gordon and reigning series champion Jimmie Johnson were banned from on-track activities Friday, and their status for Sunday's event at Infineon Raceway was in jeopardy after NASCAR discovered illegal front-end modifcations in initial inspection.

The cars of neither Gordon, the defending race champion, nor Johnson will be allowed to practice or qualify Friday.

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/head...ion/index.html

-----------------------

100 points+ $100,000? or worse? next Tuesday should be real interesting.

Starting from the back on a road course ain't good...which is where they'll be.
Go Matt!.:tt02:

revefsreleets
06-22-2007, 09:22 PM
Wait, I thought that NASCAR was in bed with Hendrick and there was a conspiracy against all the other teams?

Or did they have to manufacture this to dissuade people of that notion? After all, Gordon is likely to win the race no matter where he starts. Johnson I don't get. He's not much of a road racer, unless they had to include him. It's all so confusing, the many, many conspiracy theories in NASCAR.

Fire Haley
06-22-2007, 11:46 PM
More proof that the COT is turning Cup into an IROC series:

"It's important to know this is a Car of Tomorrow penalty," Poston said of the short-term severity of the sanction. "The inspection process and NASCAR's response to Car of Tomorrow violations are going to be more severe."

"We're going to keep this car in check. It's important to know all cars in the field are starting out equal and have the ability to win the race."

Quote of the day: "It's going to suck with those two cars [Gordon and Johnson] starting in the back because guys up front aren't going to get any air time."--Kurt Busch

OK, I'll give Kurt a +1 on that one.

This is one of two tracks (Martinsville) where I lower my expectations to a top 15. Anything better than that is gravy.

Good job Jamie, on winning the pole!

tony hipchest
06-23-2007, 02:30 PM
Quote of the day: "It's going to suck with those two cars [Gordon and Johnson] starting in the back because guys up front aren't going to get any air time."--Kurt Busch

OK, I'll give Kurt a +1 on that one.

:sofunny: if i wasnt looking id think that was said by rusty wallace himself.

im not so sure about the hendrick teams getting fined or docked for this infraction. did you hear gordons rehearsed whine that hes been sitting on waiting, for them to finally get caught?

"whaaa.... this is a new car, and we dont get to practice, and this is gonna set us back tremendously... whaaaa...new car... roadcourse...tough to come from the back...:blah:"

then he went out and posted one of the fastest times in morning practice. :rolleyes: this seems to be a case where nascar will wait and see how the 2 cars do in the race. if they win they might punish them, and if they suck, nascar will probably figure making them start in back was enough.

kudos to jerry rice who is the grand marshall. he was a guest on "trackside" and was totally enthusiastic about nascar. you woulda thought he was an ambassador for the sport. he gave all the drivers there props for trully being atheletes. elliot saddler, a multi sport athelete himself appreciated the compliment coming from 1 of the greatest atheletes ever.

revefsreleets
06-24-2007, 07:22 PM
So I still don't get it. Why bother at all if NASCAR is so pro Hendrick? And now that the two cars drove right to the front despite them being so far back, and Stewart driving from the back a couple of times, doesn't it prove that the best drivers are the best drivers no matter what kind of equipment they drive? Or is there some other conspiracy or something I don't know about?

I think you guys all watch too much TV or read too many Art Bell websites. The best owners with the best equipment attract the best drivers, and vice-versa. There is no collusion and no conspiracy. Also, if the COT is like IROC, then wouldn't the cream rise to the top? Hasn't it?

verks36
06-24-2007, 08:49 PM
Nascar is a sport where cheating is a part of the game. It is just how much you can get away with. I bet if you searched all the cars in the field throughly like spent a couple hours on each one more than 1/3 would in some way violate the rules. Remember that one guy who tried running his engine on rocket fuel haah!

Fire Haley
06-24-2007, 09:16 PM
See? I told you this place sucks. One crash+ one spin+running out of fuel = crappy day.


Now get ready to hear "Juan Pablo" at least 8 billion 999 million, 857 thousand times in the next week. nascar must be having multiple orgasims right about now...

tony hipchest
06-25-2007, 12:28 AM
proof there is still a smidgeon of hope left in nascar:

1) someone other than a chevy or rousch ford were allowed to win

2) team hendrick was shown they wont be allowd to cheat and get away with it every single week. i know, i know... by slapping them on the wrists nascar was just throwing all other teams fans a bone....

i dont expect any other sanctions. taking away a win from gordon on the week his daughter was born and giving him a 7th place finish is punishment enough :rolleyes:

100 pts and a 4 race suspension of latarte and knauss (nascars version of pacman jones) will restore my faith...

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 06:16 PM
amazing. the hammer was dropped and it was consistant with no champion's preference. 100 pts and a 6 race suspension for latarte and knauss.

good job nascar!

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 06:21 PM
1) someone other than a chevy or rousch ford were allowed to win

2) team hendrick was shown they wont be allowd to cheat and get away with it every single week. i know, i know... by slapping them on the wrists nascar was just throwing all other teams fans a bone....



It's sad to see this. I hope not too many fans actually think this way. This isn't pro wrestling. Stewart should have a win. Hamlin should have a win. Kahne should have a win. Teams need to click on all cylinders and have great luck to win a Cup. It's the little things that steal wins and rob teams of championships, and Rouch and Hendrick do all the things, big and little, that it takes to win.

As far as cheating, so far Busch, Waltrip, Jr, Gordon, Johnson, Kahne, Riggs, Elliot, Kenseth, Bliss, Lepage and Burton have all been penalized for cheating this year. Seems to me everyone cheats, and they get caught pretty regularly, too. No conspiracy here.

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 07:00 PM
It's sad to see this. I hope not too many fans actually think this way. This isn't pro wrestling. Stewart should have a win. Hamlin should have a win. Kahne should have a win. Teams need to click on all cylinders and have great luck to win a Cup. It's the little things that steal wins and rob teams of championships, and Rouch and Hendrick do all the things, big and little, that it takes to win.

.see... i just remember the days when any manufaturer got an edge nascar would step in and "level the playing field". this was especially seen when non chevy teams were "clicking on all cylinders".

dont believe me? look at the last time 3 fords finished in the top 5 of the daytona 500. i think it was 98-00 when dale jarrett won and rusty and jeremy mayfield (fords) rounded out the top 5 with b. labonte (pontiac) and dale sr. (chevy), although that could be the top 5 in the year dale won it. anyways, the point is, dale sr. single handedly got rules changed cause he couldnt run up front at daytona and the fords could:

dale sr. was pissed he couldnt pass the fords and pretty much said it was bullshit and that "bill france sr. was rolling over in his grave". within weeks spiolers were increased and wicker bills added to the roofs to "level the playing field" even though fords just had better teams with roush, penske, and yates at the time. 3 fords havent finished in the top 5 of that race since. where was nascar the year jeff gordon won his st 500 with team mates terry labonte and rickey craven rounding out the top 3?

i know nascar isnt scripted like WWE but they know where their bread is buttered, just like the nfl does, and both know how to protect its "star players". same reason adam jones and chris henry are still employed and tank johnson is looking for work. earnhardt and gordon put fans in the seats. examples are made of the "lesser players".

still dont believe me? nascar teams are restricted to 3 cars. rousch has been running 5 and hendrick 4.

isnt chad knauss a repeat offender? maybe increasing the penalties for repeat cheaters will get the point across. you dont see the p[enske teams busted for cheating like this. then again roger has said anyone on his team deliberately cheating will be fired :hunch:

but yeah, "if youre not cheating, youre not trying" :blah:

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 07:33 PM
Your own arguments answer why NASCAR is going to the COT. They had to mess with the noses and spoilers all the time on all the cars because aero became so important. As the templates drifted further and further from stock, it became harder and harder for NASCAR to keep up. I think the Monte Carlo a few years ago was engineered as a race car first and the true "stock" car was the result of what was street legal. There was time not so long ago when set-up was all that mattered, and Evernham/Gordon ruled the NASCAR world. The answer to end that dominance was even more aero changes. There really is no conspiracy. Just a couple years ago the sports two biggest draws both missed the chase. If there was a conspiracy or even a spirit of "competitive edge for the fan favorites" NASCAR would have found a way to get Gordon and JR into the chase.

As for Penske, he seems especially adept at cheating, it seems to me. Ryan Newman used to get about 5 MPG when all the other drivers got 4 MPG. They just never caught him. He also seems to have a penchant for hiring less than savory drivers. Newman is hardly Mr. personality, and, although Busch has worked really hard to change his image, he's hardly a boy scout. I guess my problem is that I can't look at the series through a jaundiced eye, since I don't really have a favorite driver or team or hate any driver or team. Maybe if i was a little more biased, i could envision some vast conspiracy, but it just isn't there.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 07:38 PM
Oh, and the team rule is 4 cars, and that was pushed back to 2009, probably for Roush.

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 07:56 PM
Your own arguments answer why NASCAR is going to the COT. They had to mess with the noses and spoilers all the time on all the cars because aero became so important. As the templates drifted further and further from stock, it became harder and harder for NASCAR to keep up. I think the Monte Carlo a few years ago was engineered as a race car first and the true "stock" car was the result of what was street legal. There was time not so long ago when set-up was all that mattered, and Evernham/Gordon ruled the NASCAR world. The answer to end that dominance was even more aero changes. There really is no conspiracy. Just a couple years ago the sports two biggest draws both missed the chase. If there was a conspiracy or even a spirit of "competitive edge for the fan favorites" NASCAR would have found a way to get Gordon and JR into the chase.

As for Penske, he seems especially adept at cheating, it seems to me. Ryan Newman used to get about 5 MPG when all the other drivers got 4 MPG. They just never caught him. He also seems to have a penchant for hiring less than savory drivers. Newman is hardly Mr. personality, and, although Busch has worked really hard to change his image, he's hardly a boy scout. I guess my problem is that I can't look at the series through a jaundiced eye, since I don't really have a favorite driver or team or hate any driver or team. Maybe if i was a little more biased, i could envision some vast conspiracy, but it just isn't there.go figure. jr. and gordon miss the 10 car cut (in a year all 5 roush drivers make it) for the chase and tony stewart misses it last year. what does nascar do? its now a 12 car cut. = changed rules.

ryan newman was cheating and team hendrick is just "hitting on all cylindars"???? :toofunny:

i dont know what driver personality has to do with all of this. kurt bush was a dick who almost ran over a pit crew member and was appropriately fined.

i understand that the monte carlo is a cool car, but im talking more about the days of the lumina, grand prix, and thunderbird, before "aero push" was a catchphrase in nascar. chevys (especially hendrick cars) were struggling pretty bad with the aero push here in the past few years, especially when they got caught back in traffic. of course that problem has been remedied with the COT.

go figure.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 08:15 PM
You think the COT was to appease Hendrick? Why? They were dominant, then NASCAR changed the rules and they were dominant again (You do know that if NASCAR would not have implemented the new point system, Jeff Gordon, not Kurt Busch would have won the 2005 Nextel Cup, right?). The old system worked fine for Hendrick. After all, who won last years Cup?

Killer thinks the COT is IROC. That's a good argument, too. If the cars are all even and exactly the same, then the best drivers with the best crews should win. I mean, it's either one way or the other, not whichever way supports your position.

I'm not trying to be controversial or anything, just asking you to look at it as an unbiased observer would. Which is the simpler answer? Vast conspiracy that really doesn't fit any existing data, or sport changing and evolving and experiencing a few growing pains?

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 08:39 PM
You think the COT was to appease Hendrick? Why? They were dominant, then NASCAR changed the rules and they were dominant again (You do know that if NASCAR would not have implemented the new point system, Jeff Gordon, not Kurt Busch would have won the 2005 Nextel Cup, right?). The old system worked fine for Hendrick. After all, who won last years Cup?

i didnt say the COT was to appease hendrick (it is for safety and to *snicker* "keep costs down")

the COT certainly hasnt hurt hendrick though, now has it? have you heard of hendrick battling the dreaded "aero push" in any of the COT races?

likewise, i didnt say the move from 10 cars making the chase to 12 was to appease hendrick either but the intent was certqainly to prevent another driver like gordon, dale jr. or reigning champion like tony stewart from missing the chase.

you may say you dont have any rooting interests but your defense of team hendrick seems mighty suspicious. if it came down to me just rooting for my favorite manufacturers, i would probably be a chevy fan. but this goes beyond what car i'd drive. ive listed plenty of examples where rules were implememted that benefited chevy teams and their drivers. is it ALL coincidence? possibly. feel free to offer up any recent rules changes to benefit any of the other manufacturers or stars (my limited knowledge and recollection only takes me back to 93)

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 09:13 PM
I stick by what NASCAR is doing with the COT. Killer is mostly right. There will be no aero advantage for any manufacturer. And the COT will keep costs down. If nothing else, the days of the sloped car for oval courses is gone. Smaller teams will be happy to save on the development costs. IROC is too extreme of an example, though.

Engine programs and set-up advantages aren't going anywhere. The teams with the most money will be able to provide the best situations to attract the best drivers. But NOTHING can change fate. Remember Gordon dominating Martinsville a few years ago then hitting a giant pot hole? That's the kind of bad luck that can ruin a championship run. Kahne has expereinced it this year.

As far as your argument about rule changes, I recommend Jayski's. It will shed great light on all the rule changes in the last 15 years. You'll find that most of the changes benefit teams that DON'T have a bow tie on the bumper.

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 09:40 PM
I stick by what NASCAR is doing with the COT. Killer is mostly right. There will be no aero advantage for any manufacturer. And the COT will keep costs down. If nothing else, the days of the sloped car for oval courses is gone. Smaller teams will be happy to save on the development costs. IROC is too extreme of an example, though.

Engine programs and set-up advantages aren't going anywhere. The teams with the most money will be able to provide the best situations to attract the best drivers. But NOTHING can change fate. Remember Gordon dominating Martinsville a few years ago then hitting a giant pot hole? That's the kind of bad luck that can ruin a championship run. Kahne has expereinced it this year.

As far as your argument about rule changes, I recommend Jayski's. It will shed great light on all the rule changes in the last 15 years. You'll find that most of the changes benefit teams that DON'T have a bow tie on the bumper.and i stick by what NASCAR is doing by fining known cheaters. i dont think jayskis is gonna help you on this one, just like it didnt help you on the last one. if you have any specifics to bring to the table feel free to do so. i already have.

im still waiting on ANYTYHING to support the crazy assertion that newman was cheating.

"5 mpg vs. 4 mpg"???? :toofunny: did jayskis tell you that?

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 10:03 PM
Wow. I'm kind of surprised by your "argument". You are stating that, just because you said so, NASCAR has favored Chevy over the years, without providing source material or links or anything, and backing this up by citing this years penalties, which I've already shown have been pretty fair and across the board (unless you are now stating that NASCAR didn't actually penalize the teams that they penalized).

I was exaggerating on Newman, but the point remains. He found a way to get better gas mileage then anyone else, and I assume, as you do, that he did so within the rules, but what if he didn't? What if he did cheat? And NASCAR wasn't able to catch it at the time? Does that somehow make him better than the cheaters that didn't get caught?

And, as far as Chevy, I just checked, and almost half the field at New Hampshire will be Chevy. Isn't it possible that Chevy, being the predominant manufacturer, would have the most wins? Are Ford, Dodge and Toyota completely incompetent?

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 10:20 PM
Wow. I'm kind of surprised by your "argument". You are stating that, just because you said so, NASCAR has favored Chevy over the years, without providing source material or links or anything, and backing this up by citing this years penalties, which I've already shown have been pretty fair and across the board (unless you are now stating that NASCAR didn't actually penalize the teams that they penalized).

i provided plenty of examples in my "argument". all you brought was telling me to visit a site ive visited plenty of times (its a good and reputable site). do you have any specifics other than your "exaggeration" about newman?

I was exaggerating on Newman, but the point remains. He found a way to get better gas mileage then anyone else, and I assume, as you do, that he did so within the rules, but what if he didn't? What if he did cheat? And NASCAR wasn't able to catch it at the time? Does that somehow make him better than the cheaters that didn't get caught?has newman and the #12 team ever been busted for cheating? if youre suggesting that every team is cheating then you agree with me that hendrick has been cheating all year, yet youre denying the fact that they have been busted as cheaters. :hunch:

And, as far as Chevy, I just checked, and almost half the field at New Hampshire will be Chevy. Isn't it possible that Chevy, being the predominant manufacturer, would have the most wins? Are Ford, Dodge and Toyota completely incompetent? you mustve ignored everything ive posted. when fords were "adjusted" to "level the playing field" they were the majority of cars in the field. it would stand to reason a field full of fords with championship contending teams such as yates, rousch, and penske, would have more wins. dale sr. didnt see it that way and neither did nascar. the fact that chevys field half the cars nowadays, doesnt erase rule changes that were made in the past. infact it supports the fact that alot of start up teams realize their best chance of surviving is riding a manufacturer that has had NASCAR's "better interests" behind it.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 10:33 PM
I'll address the last, as it's the only valid point.

And it's only valid because over the last 20 years there have been lots of Fords, but there were also Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles in the mix, along with Chevy's and the newer Dodge's. There might have even been a Plymouth. If you are somehow suggesting that Dale Earnhardt Sr. oversaw some shadowy committee to plug Chevy, you've truly lost me.

My points were clear and concise. There are references. Anyone who cares can look up and verify what I've "postulated". I stand by my posts 100%.

tony hipchest
06-26-2007, 10:58 PM
I'll address the last, as it's the only valid point.

And it's only valid because over the last 20 years there have been lots of Fords, but there were also Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles in the mix, along with Chevy's and the newer Dodge's. There might have even been a Plymouth. If you are somehow suggesting that Dale Earnhardt Sr. oversaw some shadowy committee to plug Chevy, you've truly lost me.

My points were clear and concise. There are references. Anyone who cares can look up and verify what I've "postulated". I stand by my posts 100%.have you provided any percentages of oldsmobiles, pontiacs, plymouths and dodges in the field in the past 20 years? like i said, all the times ford was "brought back down to earth" they were the majority. are you saying we should expect nascar to bring the highest budgeted chevy teams "back down to earth"? i wont hold my breath. maybe they will give a "luxury tax" like baseball did to the yankees and red sox.

i already showd the influence dale sr. had in nascar. sorry youre lost, but but there has been no driver in the sport closer to mike helton, bill sr. and jr. than sr. thats not a conspiracy or secret.

dale and his raw talent did for nascar what joe namath did for the nfl. i cant or wont deny that. the fact that chevy fans can, is what is amusing.

Fire Haley
06-27-2007, 12:15 AM
At least they dealt the cards somewhat evenly this time...that's all I was looking for.

Jimmy drops to 5th in pts.


Rank Driver Points PB

1 Jeff Gordon 2438 ---
2 Denny Hamlin 2267 -171
3 Matt Kenseth 2105 -333
4 Jeff Burton 2084 -354
5 Jimmie Johnson 2072 -366
6 Tony Stewart 2058 -380
7 Carl Edwards 2019 -419
8 Kevin Harvick 1964 -474
9 Clint Bowyer 1934 -504
10 Kyle Busch 1905 -533
11 Martin Truex, Jr. 1863 -575
12 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 1815 -623
13 Ryan Newman 1719 -719
14 Jamie McMurray 1686 -752
15 Mark Martin 1662 -776

Fire Haley
06-27-2007, 08:49 PM
Meanwhile....they race on...check out this car

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/gen/img/jun07/kenseth626.jpg

Kenseth wins All-Star Challenge

OREGON, Wis. (AP) -- Matt Kenseth had another happy homecoming at Madison International Speedway Tuesday night.

The NASCAR Nextel Cup Series star from nearby Cambridge cruised to victory in the First Supply All-Star Challenge at the half-mile track where he won a late-model championship in 1994.

Two-time Cup champion Tony Stewart finished seventh after starting 16th in his second trip to the event

revefsreleets
06-28-2007, 04:11 PM
Well, the last time I checked, teams weren't "forced" to race in Chevy's. If there is a conspiracy, why don't all the teams switch to Chevy? They could if they wanted. And when you say NASCAR should bring Chevy "back down to earth", what do you mean? They already went to a common template car. What other ideas would you institute? And if you want to talk big budget, nobody spends more money then Toyota (well, yeah, Ferrari does, but that's F-1). Rumor has it that Gibbs is leaving Chevy and heading to Toyota. Why would they do that if NASCAR favors Chevy so much?

The bottom line remains that the best teams attract the best drivers, and the Chevy teams were better prepared for the COT. There's no conspiracy, no collusion, and no favoritism.

tony hipchest
06-28-2007, 07:16 PM
Well, the last time I checked, teams weren't "forced" to race in Chevy's. If there is a conspiracy, why don't all the teams switch to Chevy? They could if they wanted. And when you say NASCAR should bring Chevy "back down to earth", what do you mean? They already went to a common template car. What other ideas would you institute? And if you want to talk big budget, nobody spends more money then Toyota (well, yeah, Ferrari does, but that's F-1). Rumor has it that Gibbs is leaving Chevy and heading to Toyota. Why would they do that if NASCAR favors Chevy so much?

The bottom line remains that the best teams attract the best drivers, and the Chevy teams were better prepared for the COT. There's no conspiracy, no collusion, and no favoritism.

" And if you want to talk big budget, nobody spends more money then Toyota"

i think you answered your own questions.

The bottom line remains that the best teams attract the best drivers,

maybe in nascar of the past 10 years but drivers like dale earnhardt, rusty wallace, and bill elliot didnt win their championships cause they were funded by the richest or in your words "best" teams. today a team like earnhardt's or wallace's 1st championships wouldnt have a shot in hell in winning the cup regardless of the driver.

revefsreleets
06-29-2007, 06:43 PM
But that's just part of the evolution of the sport. Richard Petty would probably only win 10 races in his whole career if he raced now. It's impossible to compare the old and the new.

tony hipchest
06-29-2007, 07:19 PM
But that's just part of the evolution of the sport. Richard Petty would probably only win 10 races in his whole career if he raced now. It's impossible to compare the old and the new.exactly. back then it was more about having the best driver, especially since there really werent that many multiple car teams. now its more about having the best resources, research and development, track test time, wind tunnel time, 5 point shakers (or whatever theyre called), and teammates on the track.

i guess one could view the new COT as a way to "level the playing field" so the cream rises to the top. but it still wont be decided strictly by who has the most skill. it will be decided by who's team has the best recources, money, and track time for testing.

team hendrick employs atleast 50 people with doctorates degrees (phd's in engineering and such) its no wonder theyre a little ahead of the curve when it comes to the cot. im pretty sure richard petty just employed a bunch of gearheads like earnhardt sr. who didnt even graduate high school.

revefsreleets
06-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Actually, I was thinking a lot differently than that. Richard Petty won because he had ALL the resources, and he could pretty much cheat at will and never get caught. He wasn't the best driver ever, just the one with the most resources at the time.

It's pretty clear that you hate all the best drivers. Tony Stewart isn't getting any Christmas cards from you either, is he? Your bias doesn't change the fact that they are the finest drivers in the sport.

Hey, as an interesting exercise, why not rank your top 20 drivers based on sheer talent? Forget teams or equipment or any of that, just sheer driving ability. I'd love to compare lists.

revefsreleets
06-29-2007, 08:24 PM
Only current drivers.

tony hipchest
06-29-2007, 11:32 PM
It's pretty clear that you hate all the best drivers. Tony Stewart isn't getting any Christmas cards from you either, is he? Your bias doesn't change the fact that they are the finest drivers in the sport.

LOL. thats cute. youre prejudices immediately make me think youre not conversation worthy on this matter.

Hey, as an interesting exercise, why not rank your top 20 drivers based on sheer talent? Forget teams or equipment or any of that, just sheer driving ability. I'd love to compare lists.

since this is your little game i'll let you do all the legwork and then i will step in to ridiculeyour list.

heres a start. mark martin and jeff gordon are both top 5 (stewart too). jimmy johnson may not even be top 10. since you contend the "best teams get the best drivers" im anxious to see where you place dale jarrett and ricky rudd. do you even count bill elliot? was kyle bush better than terry labonte when he replaced him? is jj yeley better than bobby labonte?

just remember, i dont grade on a curve, however i anticipate your "list". based on "todays top 20 drivers"....

revefsreleets
06-30-2007, 07:25 AM
LOL. thats cute. youre prejudices immediately make me think youre not conversation worthy on this matter.

That's just it. I don't have any prejudices. I'm not the one in here bashing drivers and claiming that NASCAR plays favorites. I don't hate any of the drivers, and I watch the sport because the racing is the best in the World. Since I'm "not worthy", I guess theres no point in making a list.

tony hipchest
06-30-2007, 01:29 PM
[/B]That's just it. I don't have any prejudices.

lol. is that so? youve already proved to be prejudiced against me by what you stated and by what you inferred:

Originally Posted by revefsreleets

It's pretty clear that you hate all the best drivers. Tony Stewart isn't getting any Christmas cards from you either, is he?


I'm not the one in here bashing drivers and claiming that NASCAR plays favorites. I don't hate any of the drivers

lets stick to the facts here.

- you dont know me, or who and what i "hate".

-you pre judged me and in the follow up statement you denied having any prejudices.

-there is no point in making the list. its subjective and you already said all the best drivers drive for the best teams. without prejudging you i already know your list.

revefsreleets
07-01-2007, 06:32 PM
I'm prejudiced? Weren't you the one who claimed that my list would be ridiculed, sight unseen? Do you need a definition of prejudice?
prej?u?dice http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fprejudice) /ˈprɛdʒhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngdɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prej-uh-dis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -diced, -dic?ing. ?noun 1.an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. 2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. 3.unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. 4.such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending. 5.damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority. ?verb (used with object) 6.to affect with a prejudice, either favorable or unfavorable: His honesty and sincerity prejudiced us in his favor.

revefsreleets
07-01-2007, 06:36 PM
Anyway, I have my list. Since your opinion is no more or less important than mine or anyone else's, I decided to post it. There is some exposition up front:

Here’s how I came up with my list. I would take all the current drivers (excluding rookies), put them all in identical cars, and have them run in 35 lap races for 100 races (No pit stops, since that could lead to a competitive advantage). The 100 races would divided over 10 tracks, and the 10 tracks would be representative of all the different types of tracks NASCAR runs (ie 10 races on a road course, 10 on a restrictor track, 10 on a flat track, etc, etc). The starting order would be random, and the drivers would randomly exchange cars after each race. In this hypothetical, everything but driver skill is eliminated. The final rankings would be an average finish position. Here’s how I think they’d rank and why:

1. Gordon- Stewart is a great race car driver, in any kind of race car, but Gordon is a great NASCAR driver, maybe the greatest. You won’t like it, but you can find dozens of knowledgeable analysts in the sport who can make all kinds of compelling cases for him.
2. Tony Stewart- Right behind Gordon. A great driver, skilled on all tracks. If this was about racing in general, he might get the nod over Gordon, but this is about NASCAR.
3. Mark Martin- Can run well anywhere. His lack of aggression might drop him down some lists, but if he had a sharper edge (ie, he was more of a prick) he’d have at least two Cups.
4. Bill Elliot- There was a time when he was absolutely dominant. In the mid 80’s he actually drove back from two laps down at Talledega under green. He helped change the rules to restrictor plates.
5. Ricky Rudd- Can run anywhere well. His skills have diminished, but he still runs, and he’s a classic old skill NASCAR driver with true driving skill across all types of tracks.

Here comes the controversy:
6. Jimmie Johnson- Handpicked by Gordon, who could have hired any driver to drive his car. He ranks with Stewart and Gordon as far as average finishes, wins/year, all the stats that count. The guy was dominant in Cup almost from the start.
7. Jeff Burton- Another guy who doesn’t have many weaknesses. In equal equipment, he shines, and he’s been remarkable consistent in the last few years.
8-10. Labonte/Jarrett/Kenseth in no particular order- I’m lumping these guys together because they are the “consistency gang”. They aren’t the greatest talents on every kind of track, but they know how to points race and keep their equipment together. This is where we start to see drivers with a known flaw in their game.
11-13. Harvick/Busch/Newman in no particular order- Great talents, but have problems controlling their tempers or some other psychological flaw. All these guys could rank higher (and Harvick is the best talent of the 3 overall, but he’s also the hottest headed), but they can’t crack the top 10 just yet. (I’d add Kyle Busch, but he’s TOO hotheaded to count)
14. Dale Earnhardt Jr.- He’s improved a lot, and can actually road race a little now, but I still think he’s kind of mediocre across the spectrum. He needs to win 4-5 races a year and improve his average finish from 16th to 6th to prove me wrong.

New talent time:
15. Montoya? Nope. Too hotheaded, and 100 races isn’t enough. 15 is Carl Edwards. The kid can drive a car, but he needs to be more consistent.
16. Kasey Kahne- Might be higher but he’s too streaky.
17. Denny Hamlin- Some may think him too low, but Gibbs is top notch equipment, and it’s too soon to know.
18. Clint Boyer- I don’t know, why not?
19. Martin Truex- Is gonna be fine as DEI #1, and runs pretty well with “inferior” DEI equipment.
20. Jamie McMurray- He’s streaky, but I have to add him because he can actually qualify and race Toyota’s.

tony hipchest
07-01-2007, 07:01 PM
I'm prejudiced?

Yes. (thanks for actually looking up the definition so that you fully understand)

Weren't you the one who claimed that my list would be ridiculed, sight unseen?

.

Nope. your list will only be ridiculed by me if its as contradictory as i expect

since this is your little game i'll let you do all the legwork and then i will step in to ridicule your list.

i thought you said the "best drivers" drive for the best teams. if elliot, rudd, and martin are some of the best drivers, how come they are driving for teams who have virtually no chance of actually winning?

MasterOfPuppets
07-01-2007, 07:31 PM
Nope. your list will only be ridiculed by me if its as contradictory as i expect



i thought you said the "best drivers" drive for the best teams. if elliot, rudd, and martin are some of the best drivers, how come they are driving for teams who have virtually no chance of actually winning?
actually tony,martin was 3 ft away from winning at daytona....

tony hipchest
07-01-2007, 10:30 PM
actually tony,martin was 3 ft away from winning at daytona....i recall watching that race and even posting in a thread about it.

chalk up a virtual win for martin! :thumbsup:

although i was talking more on a championship level, i'll stand by my words. while martin definitely has the talent to win this year, team ginn has virtually no shot.

even with road racing ace montoya, im still suprised team ganassi was able to pull off a win.

tony hipchest
07-01-2007, 11:16 PM
chevys finish 1-8 in new hampshire. good to know the COT has leveled the playing field. i wont even get into how the big chevy teams were exposed as cheating as far as testing is concerned- those who watch the nascar pre race show on SPEED channel know what im talking about.

i wonder if bill france sr (or jr) is "rolling over in his grave"?

i wonder if someone like matt kenseth said he were, if anybody would even take notice or care?

revefsreleets
07-03-2007, 05:08 PM
I need to clarify. Martin WAS on arguably the best or second best team in NASCAR just last year. Everyone knows the circumstances about his decision to leave. Elliot is also responsible for where he is, and Rudd's skills have diminished. I gave him credit for his past performances.

As for the COT, teams all had a choice: Focus on the now or focus on the future. The teams that are winning now obviously took the COT seriously and dedicated themselves to it right from the start. That's not cheating. If you have money and you spend it, that's not cheating. If you can do research, and you do it, that's not cheating. If you are better prepared and you use every available resource available to you, that's not cheating.

The other teams that didn't prepare properly are suffering for their lack of earlier action. They can use the excuse that the teams that did due diligence were cheating, but that's an empty excuse. Where are the facts? Where are the links? Where is the supporting evidence for these assertions?

There are some pretty outspoken drivers who have remained mysteriously silent in the midst of this massive conspiracy. Why? Seriously, I'm asking for some kind of real empirical data here. This is almost entirely opinion and conjecture so far, but it is interesting. If it's to continue, you need to get serious and show me something tangible other than your opinions.

tony hipchest
07-03-2007, 05:53 PM
modifying your top 20 list already?

As for the COT, teams all had a choice: Focus on the now or focus on the future. The teams that are winning now obviously took the COT seriously and dedicated themselves to it right from the start. That's not cheating. If you have money and you spend it, that's not cheating. If you can do research, and you do it, that's not cheating. If you are better prepared and you use every available resource available to you, that's not cheating.if nascar tells you not to do it with the COT, then its CHEATING.

There are some pretty outspoken drivers who have remained mysteriously silent in the midst of this massive conspiracy. Why? Seriously, I'm asking for some kind of real empirical data here. This is almost entirely opinion and conjecture so far, but it is interesting. If it's to continue, you need to get serious and show me something tangible other than your opinions.
this was very accurately explained by jimmy, kenny and whatshisname on the pre race show on speed last week as they dicussed the hendrick fines specifically, cheating in particular (nice piece with robin pemberton) and a few teams obvious dominance in the car of tomorrow. maybe some "drivers" have been silent, but jack rousch has spoken.

now im gonna surmise, paraphrase, and explain this once and it dont really matter if you believe what you assume is just my "opinion".

as was explained (and no big secret) the main goal of the COT (safety aside) was to eliminate costs that have been greatly separating the difference between the "haves and have nots" (big teams vs. little/start up teams).

the biggest cost in nascar had become "wind tunnel time". and the teams with aerodynamic superiority were winning majority of the races regardless of who was driving the cars. rookies were being put into aerodynamically superior cars and competing for championships, while start up teams with no money to spend on wind tunnel time were struggling to make the field and crack the top 30.

nascar recognized this as a problem (nascar is mart enough to see where the salary cap in the nfl has created parity and been good for business, whereas baseball is no longer "americas past time".

the intention was clear. limit the spending on research and development and draw closer to leveling the playing field. (its really no coincidence people are comparing these cars to IROC cars.

what did the big teams do? they took all the money saved from the sanctions and hired doctors and engineers. while there was a limit set on goodyear tires to be sold for practice, these teams went out and bought bf goodrich's and practiced anyways. the lesser teams did not have the resources to keep up. the intentions of nascar was circumvented. RULES were broke.

jack rousch said "i didnt know we were allowed to do that" (he played by the rules)

"you werent allowed to do that" was the answer.

you cant make it look like the big teams dominance has just been in the COT. they have been dominating in both cars because they have the resources to double up their shops, and practically have 8 "teams" working on 4 cars.

if calling that opinion and the fact that hendrick has over 50 doctorate degrees on his payroll, then fine. whatever helps you out.

i know i cant force anyone to believe an opinion.

i dont expect to have to force anyone to believe simple facts. :hunch:

tony hipchest
07-05-2007, 02:12 PM
geeze, these guys coudnt possibly be still trying to cheat just a week after their suspension could they? when will it ever end? i guess it is getting so bad nascar is actually looking at suspending the drivers.

http://www.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/10245041/1

NASCAR looking into activities of suspended crew chiefs
July 3, 2007
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports



CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- NASCAR has not ruled out suspending drivers as a deterrent for cheating on the Car of Tomorrow.

Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt Jr. were all docked 100 points when their cars failed recent inspections. Their crew chiefs were fined $100,000 and suspended six races a piece, but the drivers have been allowed to compete and all three are in contention for the Chase for the championship.

"We'd like not to get to (suspending drivers)," chairman Brian France said during a conference call Tuesday. "We'd like to make the deterrent, a portion of the penalty, significant enough that that isn't necessary for us to do.

"But are we willing to go there? Of course we would. We have in the past and we will in the future. We're not hoping to do that. That's sort of a death penalty."

France also said NASCAR is investigating reports that crew chiefs Chad Knaus, Steve Letarte and Tony Eury Jr. were at New Hampshire International Speedway last weekend despite their suspensions. All three are banned from the garage area during their suspensions, but the national television and radio broadcasts both reported the Hendrick Motorsports crew chiefs were on track property and in communication with their drivers.

One report even said Letarte participated in a Saturday team meeting with Gordon.

And, Eury Jr. apparently parked his motorcoach on a hill inside the race track and communicated with Earnhardt from there. Earnhardt reportedly spotted his crew chief during a caution period, first yelling "Hey Man!" on his radio and then explaining "I just saw a friend out there."

The conversation was described in Earnhardt's postrace media report, and explained as Earnhardt spotted a familiar face who "will return to the Bud pit box next week at Daytona." Eury's suspension ended Sunday and he's scheduled to return to the track this weekend at Daytona International Speedway.

France said the crew chiefs being on property and participating in at-track activity is not in the spirit of a suspension and that he met earlier Tuesday with NASCAR president Mike Helton to discuss the matter.

"If that all is accurate, we will be addressing that shortly," France said.

France did not reveal what NASCAR might do to police such activity. Officials can keep suspended team members out of the garage area, but may not be able to prevent them from entering the motorhome lot, the grandstands or the luxury suites.

Keeping them from communicating with the rest of the team, which can be done via telephone or computer, would also be difficult.

Letarte and Knaus must sit out the next five races, and quite possibly planned to be in Daytona this weekend to confer with their teams. Gordon is the current Nextel Cup points leader and Johnson, the defending series champion, is fourth in points.



http://www.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/10237892/2

But Knaus is a repeat offender, and this is his fourth suspension since 2001. He sat out four races last season when NASCAR found illegal modifications following Johnson's qualifying run for the Daytona 500.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/6952372

In 2005, Knaus brought a right rear shock to Dover. It wasn't illegal, but it was a shock that it was built in a manner that NASCAR had never seen before. They didn't even know how to check it. It was just different, but it wasn't illegal. They didn't disqualify him, and they didn't penalize him or anything else. They just said, "We're not going to allow it." Then, they made a bulletin the next week, disallowing shocks that were built that way.

although knaus wasnt involved NASCAR allowed jeff gordon race a dominating jurrasic park car to an all star race win, then told them never to bring it to the track again. it basically had all the same issues as Knaus's shocks. i always wondered why he was allowed to race it in the 1st place... :huh:

tony hipchest
07-05-2007, 03:52 PM
go figure. team hendrick busted again :busted:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/6991728

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (AP) - NASCAR has penalized the Nextel Cup teams of Kyle Busch and Johnny Sauter for rule infractions found on their cars during the postrace inspection following Sunday's race at New Hampshire International Speedway.

Both the No. 5 Chevrolet of Busch and the No. 70 Chevrolet of Sauter were found to have used unapproved parts and failed to meet the minimum front car heights.
NASCAR said Wednesday that Busch and Sauter were each penalized 25 points and their respective crew chiefs, Alan Gustafson and Robert "Bootie" Barker, were each fined $25,000 and placed on probation until Sept. 19.

In addition, Rick Hendrick, owner of the No. 5, was penalized 25 car owner championship points, as was Joe Custer, owner of the No. 70.

revefsreleets
07-06-2007, 02:00 PM
I guess we're going to just have to disagree, because I refuse to believe there is overt favoritism in NASCAR. Look at your own arguments throughout this thread. You concurrently claim that Hendrick is allowed to cheat every week and get away with it, even though they've been by far the most heavily penalized team this year. It can't be both, and, of course, it isn't. They have the resources, they use them, and it bends some people out of shape. Gibbs, RCR and DEI all have mastered the COT as well, and a bunch of teams have been caught cheating, but you single out Hendrick week after week. Why?

tony hipchest
07-06-2007, 03:00 PM
I guess we're going to just have to disagree, because I refuse to believe there is overt favoritism in NASCAR. Look at your own arguments throughout this thread. You concurrently claim that Hendrick is allowed to cheat every week and get away with it, even though they've been by far the most heavily penalized team this year. It can't be both, and, of course, it isn't. They have the resources, they use them, and it bends some people out of shape. Gibbs, RCR and DEI all have mastered the COT as well, and a bunch of teams have been caught cheating, but you single out Hendrick week after week. Why?why? not that "everybody does it" is really an excuse that needs a response, but why dont you list the "bunch of teams" that dont learn their lesson and continue doing it? are you going to continue to deny that? you wanted the hard facts. what crew cheif has been suspended more than knaus since he came into the league? a week after #24, and #48 were busted #5 is busted.

i prefer the teams that crack down on trying to circumvent the rules, and atleast try to give the appearance of trying to uphold the integrity of the league. m. waltrips team got busted cheating, and heads rolled and people were fired. his team is still suffering. roger penske has a strict policy that anyone busted blatanly cheating will be fired. and sure theres all the other teams who have been caught cheating:

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/headlines/cup/07/05/hunter.addresses.crew.chiefs/1.html
(reaction to nascar letting latart and knaus know what "suspension" meant yesterday and telling them they are not welcome at the track)

Evernham Motorsports' driver Elliott Sadler said he agreed with NASCAR's get-tough policy, based on his organization's reaction to all three of its crew chiefs being suspended at the beginning of this season.

"I know when our crew chiefs got suspended from Daytona they had to pretty much go home -- they could not be on the grounds of the racetrack," Sadler said. "I think you need to keep them at home and on no property the racetrack owns. I don't think they need to be around anywhere with communication with their teams -- that's part of being suspended. Keep on escalating the fines. They'll get their attention one day.

"You've got to do something. It doesn't look like points are working and suspensions aren't working. I do like what NASCAR is doing. They keep going up and as a driver I want to know that everybody is on legal stuff every time I go to the track."



Roush Fenway Racing crew chief Robbie Reiser also felt NASCAR's wrath during Speedweeks 2007 via a similar four-race suspension. Reiser worked at the shop and stayed away from the facilities -- including California Speedway, where his driver, Matt Kenseth, won.

"The reason we did what we did when we were in our suspension was because our team was structured to the point that one man doesn't make a difference here," Reiser said. "All the guys work together and if one guy is missing this team ain't going to fall apart -- it can continue on. We just changed the direction and the way we were running our team and spent the four weeks using it at the shop. That's the bottom line on how we handled it and the reason we did."

Reiser said it all comes down to the definition of suspension.


as for eury jr's cheating it looks like hes just auditionning for his new job:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/6975264

Eury sits at a table in tan cargo shorts, a gray long-sleeve t-shirt and a baseball cap. A picture of his hero and granddaddy — the late Robert Gee — sits on the kitchen table next to his race set-up. He has two lap tops running at once — one that displays lap times, the other with pages of data and comments coming straight from his engineer, H.A. Mergen, whom he refers to as "Dr. Mergen." From the driver's seat of the coach, Eury has a perfect view of the racetrack.
Not bad for a crew chief who is serving the sixth and final week of suspension stemming from an ill-hung spoiler on the No. 8 Budweiser Chevrolet at Darlington Raceway.

"It's everything I could ask for," Eury said. "I love it. I have all the information I need right here — tire pressures, tire temperatures, shocks. I let my guys make the decisions but I can offer my opinion from what I see on the track and the information on my computer. It's cool.

"At Charlotte I watched the race from Junior's suite. When he said the car was loose, I could look at the car and tell the guys just how loose it was."

While Eury is finishing his suspension this weekend, Hendrick Motorsports crew chiefs Chad Knaus (48) and Steve Letarte (24) are just starting the first week of their penalties that were handed down this week after the front end of their cars failed inspection.

Eury, who is expected to join his driver Dale Earnhardt Jr. at Hendrick Motorsports at the end of this season, passed on some advice to his future teammates.

"All you can be is the link," Eury said. "You're like the third link of information. You can't make the calls. You've got to let your boys do their deal.

"I was telling Junior, 'It's like being on a driver's schedule. You get up 10 minutes before practice, fire everything up and you're ready to go."

Eury has been that extra set of eyes and ears. He can listen, but he can't use the radio to call the race or reply to questions. The arrangement has worked out well. Without the ongoing garage distractions, the No. 8 Dale Earnhardt Inc. team's average finish has jumped from 17.45 to 12.0. Despite being docked 100 points and falling from 12th to 14th in the standings, Earnhardt is right back where he started. Not bad for a long-distance relationship.



you can refuse to believe in overt favoritism, but im not naive enough to think covert favoritism hasnt taken place in the past. (nascar allowing these crewchiefs to still do crew cheifing duties is a perfect example):
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/6995146
"We want to take away the perception that they're circumventing the penalty," said NASCAR vice president of communication Jim Hunter, "that the penalty doesn't mean anything cause they're still on site — even though in my mind whether you're in the grandstand with a Blackberry or a cell phone — you can't have a team radio

since you dont believe in nascar making consessions a recent DW article might interest you:

The concession stand is closed

http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/6987560

You concurrently claim that Hendrick is allowed to cheat every week and get away with it,and this comment is flat out bullshit twisting of words i would expect from litp. i have pointed out that the hendrick teams are getting busted. you think they just now started cheating? lol. nascar is just cracking down on those who do it the most. its as simple as that.

revefsreleets
07-06-2007, 04:38 PM
and this comment is flat out bullshit twisting of words i would expect from litp. i have pointed out that the hendrick teams are getting busted. you think they just now started cheating? lol. nascar is just cracking down on those who do it the most. its as simple as that.

You need to keep your own arguments in mind when you post. This is YOUR post, post #8 in this thread

proof there is still a smidgeon of hope left in nascar:

1) someone other than a chevy or rousch ford were allowed to win

2) team hendrick was shown they wont be allowd to cheat and get away with it every single week. i know, i know... by slapping them on the wrists nascar was just throwing all other teams fans a bone....

i dont expect any other sanctions. taking away a win from gordon on the week his daughter was born and giving him a 7th place finish is punishment enough :rolleyes:

100 pts and a 4 race suspension of latarte and knauss (nascars version of pacman jones) will restore my faith...

The bottom line is that NASCAR used to let teams work in a gray area, and that's why the old car looks like a smashed up matchbox car, and now they don't. That point has been made abundantly clear, and Hendrick and all the other teams know that now. The teams have consistently tried to get away with everything they could for years, and not just the rich ones. In point of fact, it is NASCAR itself which has changed. They used to be flexible, and now they aren't. Hendrick is just the most visible victim of sweeping and sudden change due to their recent success.

My point stays the same: People hate Hendrick because they win a lot, and they win a lot because they have the best equipment, the best people and the best drivers. Some of those things used to be chicken/egg arguments, but now it's all about the chicken, since Jr. had his pick and picked. If he starts winning , this argument will get more pronounced, albeit it will be louder screaming from fewer fans. For what it's worth, I don't think Jr. is going to win much more than he does now, although his finishing position will improve. He'll probably win a Cup, but he would have at DEI anyway. Their equipment is top-notch.

All the haters hate more, and find more tangential arguments to fit their hate, because everyone hates a winner. I don't. I respect teams that can win in NASCAR now, whether they are 1 car teams or 20 car teams. There are way too many variables involved that make racing in Cup super competitive and make the old racing where only about 5 guys ever had a chance to win more like F-1 is now. I don't long for those old days at all. To find a reasonable and parallel football analogy, I'd pick the Patriots. I dn't care for the Pats because they have beaten my Steelers in some key games over the last decade or so, but I respect them mightily. Not everyone shares that same philosophy, obviously.

tony hipchest
07-06-2007, 05:46 PM
You need to keep your own arguments in mind when you post. This is YOUR post, post #8 in this thread.post #8 wasnt an argument. it was obviously a sarcastic statement taking a dig at the number of times team hendrick has been caught bending the rules. did you notice the sarcastic smiley rolling its eyes?




The bottom line is that NASCAR used to let teams work in a gray area, and that's why the old car looks like a smashed up matchbox car, and now they don't. That point has been made abundantly clear, and Hendrick and all the other teams know that now. The teams have consistently tried to get away with everything they could for years, and not just the rich ones. In point of fact, it is NASCAR itself which has changed. They used to be flexible, and now they aren't. Hendrick is just the most visible victim of sweeping and sudden change due to their recent success.

My point stays the same: People hate Hendrick because they win a lot, and they win a lot because they have the best equipment, the best people and the best drivers. Some of those things used to be chicken/egg arguments, but now it's all about the chicken, since Jr. had his pick and picked. If he starts winning , this argument will get more pronounced, albeit it will be louder screaming from fewer fans. For what it's worth, I don't think Jr. is going to win much more than he does now, although his finishing position will improve. He'll probably win a Cup, but he would have at DEI anyway. Their equipment is top-notch.

All the haters hate more, and find more tangential arguments to fit their hate, because everyone hates a winner. I don't. I respect teams that can win in NASCAR now, whether they are 1 car teams or 20 car teams. There are way too many variables involved that make racing in Cup super competitive and make the old racing where only about 5 guys ever had a chance to win more like F-1 is now. I don't long for those old days at all. To find a reasonable and parallel football analogy, I'd pick the Patriots. I dn't care for the Pats because they have beaten my Steelers in some key games over the last decade or so, but I respect them mightily. Not everyone shares that same philosophy, obviously.

the bottom line, is the bolded statement was the only statement containing any fact. the rest was pure opinion and conjecture on your part.

Where are the facts? Where are the links? Where is the supporting evidence for these assertions?

There are some pretty outspoken drivers who have remained mysteriously silent in the midst of this massive conspiracy. Why? Seriously, I'm asking for some kind of real empirical data here. This is almost entirely opinion and conjecture so far, but it is interesting. If it's to continue, you need to get serious and show me something tangible other than your opinions.
sound familiar? was that the most tangible "fact" you got? :chuckle:

because everyone hates a winner. I don't. this by far is going to be the easiest of your statements to blow out of the water. take a look at the race win total and total championships of gordon, earnhardt, and petty and try to explain why they have been 3 of the most popular, well liked, leaders in merchandise sales, and leaders of the sport. because everybody hates them? riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

enjoy all the links i provided... (im sure jayski's has a link for total wins and championships won for you, but it is of my opinion that the big 3 have won a grand total of 18.)

revefsreleets
07-06-2007, 06:07 PM
Tony, I concede. It's pretty clear that I just can't win against such a clearly formidable and knowledgeable opponent. You're the board NASCAR expert and I apologize for deigning to impede with a clearly unacceptable and contrary view to what is obviously THE defining and only correct view. Congratulations, by the way, on knowing exactly what's going on in NASCAR. There are 104 million other websites that have the same types of views and concerns and questions that I have. I feel sorry for them.

:shake01::shake01::hasign::hasign:

tony hipchest
07-06-2007, 06:27 PM
Tony, I concede. It's pretty clear that I just can't win against such a clearly formidable and knowledgeable opponent. You're the board NASCAR expert and I apologize for deigning to impede with a clearly unacceptable and contrary view to what is obviously THE defining and only correct view. Congratulations, by the way, on knowing exactly what's going on in NASCAR. There are 104 million other websites that have the same types of views and concerns and questions that I have. I feel sorry for them.

:shake01::shake01::hasign::hasign:np. let me know if brian france, john darby, mike helton, robin pemberton, or myself can be of any further assistance. theres no telling what type of rubbish you will come across believing the "hater" fans on 104,000,000 other websites.

(may i suggest the official NASCAR.com?) :wave:

revefsreleets
07-06-2007, 07:25 PM
np. let me know if brian france, john darby, mike helton, robin pemberton, or myself can be of any further assistance. theres no telling what type of rubbish you will come across believing the "hater" fans on 104,000,000 other websites.

(may i suggest the official NASCAR.com?) :wave:

Wait just one second. Are you aligning yourself with them? But aren't they the same "Evil Empire" that are in bed with Chevy? Is there a vast Chevy conspiracy or not? Aren't the same people you're now aligning yourself with involved? And did you REALLY suggest, even remotely, that all the fans on their millions of websites are all crazy and wrong because they...

Never mind.

tony hipchest
07-06-2007, 07:57 PM
Wait just one second. Are you aligning yourself with them? But aren't they the same "Evil Empire" that are in bed with Chevy? Is there a vast Chevy conspiracy or not? Aren't the same people you're now aligning yourself with involved? And did you REALLY suggest, even remotely, that all the fans on their millions of websites are all crazy and wrong because they...

Never mind.are you even remotely suggesting i am wrong because i havent bought into your opinion (that you have forgone providing any "empirical evidence" for)?

im not "aligning" myself with anybody. you just complimented me for knowing what was going on within NASCAR. (i dont follow this stuff for my health.)

infact, i would say they are aligning themselves with my point of view. after all they (the rules setters) are the ones who have said this type of behavior is no longer gonna be tollerated by anyone, anymore.

i have provided you with plenty of links and quotes from the aformentionned, even ones from team hendric basically stating "gee, we used to always get away with this in the past"

i have given you points of view from crewcheifs, competitors, owners, and the rules setters/ governing bodies, and commentators.

you come back with 104,000,000 random unnamed "websites" :toofunny:

:blah: good luck with that.

:wave:

revefsreleets
07-08-2007, 08:22 AM
LOL. This is really good stuff. I'm 100% wrong and you're 100% right, even though you're the one arguing for a conspiracy that can't actually exist, because it would destroy the sport. Gotcha.:thumbsup:

By the way, last night's top 5:
Ford
Chevy
Dodge
Ford
Chevy

revefsreleets
07-08-2007, 08:28 AM
By the way, anybody who hates Jeff Gordon should watch "Jeff Gordon 24X24" on TNT. Should clear up a lot of obvious ignorance about him.

tony hipchest
07-08-2007, 06:52 PM
By the way, anybody who hates Jeff Gordon should watch "Jeff Gordon 24X24" on TNT. Should clear up a lot of obvious ignorance about him.wow. hate is such a strong word.

perhaps all the girls who think gordon is "dreamy" and all the guys who have an obvious mancrush on gordon should watch that. since poor jeffy is so "hated" i'll just wait to buy the series on DVD so i can help him out financially. :rolleyes: thanks though...

you were the only one who brought conspiracy theory into this conversation (it is really just a catchphrase gordon apologists love to use any time he or hendrick gets critisizm all the times they are busted cheating.

no weekend was a better example of this "conspiracy" though. didnt you see the cropdusters flying around the daytona speedway that nascar hired to seed the clouds on fridays qualifying after gordon turned in a horrible effort?

this wise investment by nascar wiped out all the poor teams great qualifying effort and gave gordon the pole in race set up, on an impound race.

and how bout nascar ordering the 4 biggest chevy challengers to gordons greatness being taken out (harvick, stewart, hamlin and jr.)?

yes, the road was paved, yet not even nascar is perfect. :rolleyes: (take note of the sarcastic smilies)

all "hate" and bickering aside, without the microsecond measurement of all races since 93 thats gotta be the closest finish ive ever seen. excellent race and finish. very ironic that mcmurray won it in kutr busch's old ride with rusty wallaces final crew cheif.

and youre right. i wont be sending any x-mas cards to stewart. do you? not because hes a good driver but because he's the biggest prick in the garage and last nights blasting of his teammate cemented him as the biggest ******* (not that it needed cementing).

i cant wait to hear all the chevy and steart apologists defend him on this one. the wreck that happened last night was the EXACT same as the wreck that happened between him and kurt busch in the daytona 500. even though the roles were reversed its funny how stewart is never in the wrong on either cases. in fact, stewart never thinks he made a mistake in his life even though he was more wreckless than j. pablo montoya well beyond his rookie season in nascar.

sure, call me a "hater", but stewart is obviously sour that hamlin has been doing better than him and was in the chase last year while stewart was on the outside looking in.

he has nothing to complain about though. nascar made a consession and changed the rules of the chase to show him that if he ever finishes 11th again, he too, will make the chase.

go figure. the squeaky wheel gets the grease. more proof that nascar knows where its bread is buttered. (God forbid gordon and jr. ever miss the chase again in the same season)

revefsreleets
07-09-2007, 07:11 PM
Gotta agree about Stewart. He wrecks his teammate then blames it on the guy he wrecked. Classic! Not sure what the manufacturer has to do it with it, but that's not my territory anyway.

As for the Chase expansion, they were never sure where the line should be drawn, and, yes, the two biggest stars of the sport being left out had an impact. But didn't the NFL make room for Wild Cards? The MLB? The NBA lets half of it's teams in the playoffs and I swear the NHL lets ALL it's teams in. In proper context, NASCAR probably, even after expanding the field, has the smallest ratio of participants/playoffs in any sport, if you consider they have about 50 entries a week now.

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 11:24 PM
Gotta agree about Stewart. He wrecks his teammate then blames it on the guy he wrecked. Classic! Not sure what the manufacturer has to do it with it, but that's not my territory anyway..as a fellow nascar fan its good to see we can find some common ground to agree upon :cheers:. stewart has all the skills in the world but he is still showing the same immaturity and lack of accountability he showed as a rookie. he is a comlete ass. but he is good for nascar.

for what its worth i really only came close to "hating" one driver. seconds after i heard he was dead, i realized i didnt "hate" him, but he was the great rival many "loved" to root against. i didnt really need him to die to know what he meant to the sport but i never really appreciated him until my driver no longer had that weekend rival out there to race against. (rusty wallace admittedly was never the same after that)



As for the Chase expansion, they were never sure where the line should be drawn, and, yes, the two biggest stars of the sport being left out had an impact. But didn't the NFL make room for Wild Cards? The MLB? The NBA lets half of it's teams in the playoffs and I swear the NHL lets ALL it's teams in. In proper context, NASCAR probably, even after expanding the field, has the smallest ratio of participants/playoffs in any sport, if you consider they have about 50 entries a week now. excellent points. nascar definitely is the most exclusive in its "playoff " format. ultimately, i like the chase in any configuration. while it may be bad for individual drivers and their accolades, it is better for the fans. what is better for the fans is ultimately what is better for gordon even though he lost what woulda been a 5th champ the 1st year that busch won it.

as a fan, i wouild definitely lose a bit of interest if it was like the last 2 busch series champs where harvick and edwards pretty much have it sewn up midway through the season (not to say that would keep me from watching though)

revefsreleets
07-10-2007, 04:21 PM
Not to start a lovefest, but I felt almost exactly the same way about Earnhardt.

I also couldn't understand what Tony Stewart was talking about in the fallout after the race. He was going around saying that his teammate was trying to wreck him in practice? That's crazy talk.