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revefsreleets
06-24-2007, 08:39 PM
I've seen this argued by both sides before, and I was just wondering what the union guys had to say about this. I don't have the link but it came from the Chicago Tribune. $10 billion is a lot of money.

Contract talks promise drama, plenty of tension

Big Three automakers, UAW prepare to battle over gap in labor costs

By Jim Mateja

Chicago Tribune

CHICAGO - Soon it will be time again to shake hands and come out fighting.
This contest pits grown men in business suits against each other. In this corner, white collar; in that, blue. Those employed by General Motors, Ford and Chrysler against those in the United Auto Workers who labor for them.
In just a few weeks, both sides will gather in a large room, exchange pleasantries and smile for the cameras.
When the photogs leave, the opposing groups will sit down and start calling each other names, questioning the parentage of those across the table. This goes on for months until they run out of nasty names, and finally flip a coin and declare both sides winners.
They ink a contract, and everyone goes home claiming to have won.
This description is to prepare you for the screaming and shouting and carefully orchestrated theatrics known as the 2007 contract negotiations. There will be tension and drama, fear and loathing, threats and accusations. Not to mention snarls and finger-pointing.
The automakers will say they can't afford to invest in new cars and old workers at the same time; the workers will insist that they make so little they have to scavenge for food to survive.
Although official negotiations don't begin until later this summer, the preliminaries are under way.
The Detroit News reports that Ford Motor Co. sources are saying that unless the UAW agrees to whittle the $71 an hour its workers make in wages and benefits to $50 an hour, Ford will go out of business.
End-of-the-world scenarios are popular at this point in contract talks, as are work slowdowns and strike threats.
While UAW members receive $70 to $75 an hour in wages and benefits, workers for Toyota and its Japanese brethren receive $40 to $45 an hour, or a difference of $30 an hour and about $10 billion a year less than the domestics, one reason the Japanese are thriving and domestics aren't.
The Wall Street Journal, meanwhile, points out that while Toyota and Honda have been opening nonunion plants in the United States, GM, Ford and Chrysler have closed plants and cashiered 70,000 union jobs in the last two years.
The Journal quoted an unnamed Detroit executive who said the domestics will move plants and people outside the U.S. to build their products if the UAW doesn't agree to bring labor costs in line with those at Toyota and the other Japanese.
Never mind that moving work outside the United States would prompt an immediate stoppage by the UAW at any U.S. plants, so the automaker would only cripple itself. But the threat of building Chevys in Iceland, for example, does make for good drama.
The person with the most difficult task is Ron Gettelfinger, president of the UAW. He has to play tough so that neither his union nor the automakers think he has gone soft, yet all the while realizing the enemy isn't GM, Ford or Chrysler, it's Toyota, Honda, and Nissan and the 62,000-plus nonunion workers they employ. Stay tuned.
Longer warranties
Chrysler is investigating whether to offer longer warranty coverage on its 2008 models.
``We always look at it, but we're stepping up the talks a little because General Motors got more aggressive with its warranty for 2007,'' said Chrysler Group spokesman Jason Vines.
GM raised its warranty coverage to 5 years/50,000 miles from 3/36 or 4/48. Chrysler stayed at 3/36, which it went to after offering 7 years/70,000 miles between 2002 and '05.
``We're looking at whether GM is enjoying an advantage because of its warranty and whether it's helping them close more sales,'' Vines said.

Godfather
06-24-2007, 09:15 PM
How does executive pay at Ford compare to executive pay at Toyota? How much more top-heavy is Ford's management? How is the relative performance of the companies affected by the fact that Toyota responded to higher gas prices with better fuel efficiency while Ford cranked out more gas-guzzlers? How much does the comparison of assembly-line workers really matter given that Toyota has a lot of plants in the US and Ford outsources a lot of work to Mexico?

MasterOfPuppets
06-25-2007, 04:52 PM
i bet ford doesn't ask thier $250,000 ,6 week paid vacation exexcutives to take a paycut !!!

SteelCityMan786
06-25-2007, 04:53 PM
i bet ford doesn't ask thier $250,000 ,6 week paid vacation exexcutives to take a paycut !!!

Yep, since they put crappy football teams on the field.

Atlanta Dan
06-25-2007, 08:54 PM
IMO the wage differential is a red herring, although the U.S. creates a competitive disadvantage for manufacturers with its ridiculous system of providing inefficient and overpriced health insurance coverage (at least for some) exclusively through employers.

I am pretty confident your average German autoworker makes at least as much as your typical UAW employee of GM, Ford, and Chrysler while BMW and Mercedes have no problem selling their products in the States.

My last domestic manufacturer American car was a Pontiac Phoenix (from the GM "X" car line that was probably rock bottom for quality, featuring an automatic tranny on my car that failed at 45,000 miles) and I have never regretted my subsequent purchases, one of which was an American made Acura. The domestic automakers problems are lousy cars and terrible management; they gave up trying to market cars and decided to make $$ exclusively on SUVs and trucks. Now the bottom has fallen out of the SUV market while the Japanese manufacturers have the lead on hybrids as the U.S. manufacturers have spent the last 20 years lobbying Congress to keep the lid on increasing mileage standards.

If U.S. manufacturers cut wages they still would have the same problems with quality and unappealing designs; the layoffs need to come in the executive suites.

PisnNapalm
06-25-2007, 09:46 PM
Well... I reckon I'll stick with a Japanese brand car. I haven't ever wrecked one of those. I have wrecked an American brand car though. Well... I was in it when a woman driving too fast for the weather conditions slid into my lane and hit me nearly head on.

RIP my 1987 Dodge Daytona Pacifica. *sniff*:tombstone

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 06:41 PM
IMO the wage differential is a red herring, although the U.S. creates a competitive disadvantage for manufacturers with its ridiculous system of providing inefficient and overpriced health insurance coverage (at least for some) exclusively through employers.

I am pretty confident your average German autoworker makes at least as much as your typical UAW employee of GM, Ford, and Chrysler while BMW and Mercedes have no problem selling their products in the States.

My last domestic manufacturer American car was a Pontiac Phoenix (from the GM "X" car line that was probably rock bottom for quality, featuring an automatic tranny on my car that failed at 45,000 miles) and I have never regretted my subsequent purchases, one of which was an American made Acura. The domestic automakers problems are lousy cars and terrible management; they gave up trying to market cars and decided to make $$ exclusively on SUVs and trucks. Now the bottom has fallen out of the SUV market while the Japanese manufacturers have the lead on hybrids as the U.S. manufacturers have spent the last 20 years lobbying Congress to keep the lid on increasing mileage standards.

If U.S. manufacturers cut wages they still would have the same problems with quality and unappealing designs; the layoffs need to come in the executive suites.

I wasn't really looking to get involved, just see what people had to say, but this response was interesting. How can wages be a red herring if the benefits are the culprit in the wages equation? The benefits are almost certainly what make up the difference, and at least some of those are union enforced benefits that aren't necessary.

I also thought the thing about the German cars was interesting. I wonder if it's a cycle that we just haven't been through yet? If you read Consumer Reports, or, better yet, talk to people who would know (owners of the cars and the people who work on them), the quality of Mercedes and BMW's has dropped significantly over the last 10 years or so, but they have achieved such status that they are still able to command premiums. I bet, however, that brands like Lexus and Acura are eating away at their market share as well. Could the US manufacturers do to the Japanese what the Japanese did to them and the Germans?

Atlanta Dan
06-26-2007, 08:51 PM
I wasn't really looking to get involved, just see what people had to say, but this response was interesting. How can wages be a red herring if the benefits are the culprit in the wages equation? The benefits are almost certainly what make up the difference, and at least some of those are union enforced benefits that aren't necessary.

I also thought the thing about the German cars was interesting. I wonder if it's a cycle that we just haven't been through yet? If you read Consumer Reports, or, better yet, talk to people who would know (owners of the cars and the people who work on them), the quality of Mercedes and BMW's has dropped significantly over the last 10 years or so, but they have achieved such status that they are still able to command premiums. I bet, however, that brands like Lexus and Acura are eating away at their market share as well. Could the US manufacturers do to the Japanese what the Japanese did to them and the Germans?

My point is that it is always easy for the coach to blame the overpaid and undermotivated players when his own job is on the line. But even if Bill Belichick and Art Shell had the same players my money would be on Belichick - same thing with Toyota/Honda v. GM/Ford.

Detroit automakers getting their ass kicked by the Japanese for the last 30 years has a lot more to do with poor management that they will ever admit. Like the Raiders, Detroit has been on a downhill slide for decades.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 09:18 PM
I think we are on parallel thought planes here, I'm just wondering (albeit, optimistically) if it's possible that the US manufacturers could get lean and mean and assume the role that the Japanese took in the late 70's/early 80's?

Atlanta Dan
06-26-2007, 09:33 PM
I think we are on parallel thought planes here, I'm just wondering (albeit, optimistically) if it's possible that the US manufacturers could get lean and mean and assume the role that the Japanese took in the late 70's/early 80's?

If the Japanese rested on their laurels like Detroit did after the 60s maybe so, but it is hard to see how they would repeat those mistake, especially with all bets being off once the Chinese figure out how to establish an auto industry.

I was in Pittsburgh in the late 70s when the steel industry went down for the count (including 2 summers working on the coke oven batteries at the J&L Pittsburgh Works where I literally got paid for 8 hours while working 4 hours + double time & 1/2 on holidays) and I see the American auto industry heading in the same direction.

The Steelers practice facility is on the old site of the Pittsburgh Works - maybe GM can sell some land to the Lions.

ChronoCross
06-26-2007, 09:35 PM
Well personally I love my F150 and F350 and would not give them up for any honda are toyota, I can hall more, tow more, then any of them. And I have towed about all of them out there at one point off the road are to there home. You have to love a dodge when it breaks down.

Mercedes and Chrysler merged together. Cannot remember which bought who but that was a few years ago.

Ford and there counter part VW have been working on better gas mileage cars and trucks and they have been hitting the market.

Pontiac is probably one of the biggest piece of craps out there with more problems then any car maker out there.

BMW I would never own, seen so many of them burned out and broke down on the autobahn in germany to make me think different while I was there. And mercedes at almost 1000bucks a shot to get look at kinda stirs you away. Like my wifes brother(german) said BMW is only good until its first break down then sell it.

Atlanta Dan
06-26-2007, 09:38 PM
Well personally I love my F150 and F350 and would not give them up for any honda are toyota, I can hall more, tow more, then any of them. And I have towed about all of them out there at one point off the road are to there home. You have to love a dodge when it breaks down.

Mercedes and Chrysler merged together. Cannot remember which bought who but that was a few years ago.

Ford and there counter part VW have been working on better gas mileage cars and trucks and they have been hitting the market.

Pontiac is probably one of the biggest piece of craps out there with more problems then any car maker out there.

BMW I would never own, seen so many of them burned out and broke down on the autobahn in germany to make me think different while I was there. And mercedes at almost 1000bucks a shot to get look at kinda stirs you away. Like my wifes brother(german) said BMW is only good until its first break down then sell it.

Maybe I am the exception to the rule - BMW owner since mid-90s and never had a problem with any of them.

Stlrs4Life
06-26-2007, 09:44 PM
I for one am a UAW worker, we make the seats for the Chevy Cobalt. And I can guarantee you that every American Car is built just as good as the foreign car made as in Honda and Toyota. Maybe back in the 80's and partly the '90s it could have been true. The hourly difference is based on Big 3 pensions and Healthcare costs which Toyota and Honda do not have to pay for. I work for a supplier named Intier Automotive, Intier supplies the Big 3 and Toyota and Honda, and some Nissan vehicles with seats and various other interior parts. Anfd the Quality expectations is the same. And as far as gas economy, our vehicles stack right up there with them. It is all perception. And, as far as them being made in the USA, well, Assebled in the USA is more like it. Profits still go to the far east. And us UAW workers do not have anything against the people that work for Toyota, Honda or Nissan in the US. The gap will close as far as the wage, we can see that coming, we are not blind.

Stlrs4Life
06-26-2007, 09:48 PM
Well personally I love my F150 and F350 and would not give them up for any honda are toyota, I can hall more, tow more, then any of them. And I have towed about all of them out there at one point off the road are to there home. You have to love a dodge when it breaks down.

Mercedes and Chrysler merged together. Cannot remember which bought who but that was a few years ago.

Ford and there counter part VW have been working on better gas mileage cars and trucks and they have been hitting the market.

Pontiac is probably one of the biggest piece of craps out there with more problems then any car maker out there.

BMW I would never own, seen so many of them burned out and broke down on the autobahn in germany to make me think different while I was there. And mercedes at almost 1000bucks a shot to get look at kinda stirs you away. Like my wifes brother(german) said BMW is only good until its first break down then sell it.


Daimler bought out Dodge, it is now Daimler/Chrysler. And Pontiacputs out pretty nicecars, thesster of the Cobalt is the G5, and the Grand Ams and Grand Prix were alson nice. And theG6 is pretty good also.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Actually, all those multi-national mergers seem to be fading. Daimler just split Chrysler off, and Ford will probably be splintering all it's foreign brands, too. They had some impressive brands: Jaguar, Mazda, Land Rover, Volvo. I don't know what GM will do.

Stlrs4Life
06-26-2007, 10:12 PM
GM, will not be getting any bigger anytime soon. They are big enough.

revefsreleets
06-26-2007, 10:17 PM
GM, will not be getting any bigger anytime soon. They are big enough.

You work there. Do you think that it's possible that maybe the US makers wise up and take their industry back? Or is it past that?

Cape Cod Steel Head
06-27-2007, 11:28 AM
I for one am a UAW worker, we make the seats for the Chevy Cobalt. And I can guarantee you that every American Car is built just as good as the foreign car made as in Honda and Toyota. Maybe back in the 80's and partly the '90s it could have been true. The hourly difference is based on Big 3 pensions and Healthcare costs which Toyota and Honda do not have to pay for. I work for a supplier named Intier Automotive, Intier supplies the Big 3 and Toyota and Honda, and some Nissan vehicles with seats and various other interior parts. Anfd the Quality expectations is the same. And as far as gas economy, our vehicles stack right up there with them. It is all perception. And, as far as them being made in the USA, well, Assebled in the USA is more like it. Profits still go to the far east. And us UAW workers do not have anything against the people that work for Toyota, Honda or Nissan in the US. The gap will close as far as the wage, we can see that coming, we are not blind.
Not according to Consumer Reports

Stlrs4Life
06-27-2007, 10:01 PM
Consumer reports? Yeah there not biased. JD Power ranks Gm pretty good, and our Lordstown Plant was just ranked 4th in production in the US last week.

Cape Cod Steel Head
06-28-2007, 01:35 AM
Consumer reports? Yeah there not biased. JD Power ranks Gm pretty good, and our Lordstown Plant was just ranked 4th in production in the US last week.Why do you think that they are biased?

Godfather
06-28-2007, 09:14 AM
The Americans and the Japanese decided to engage in a competitive boat race. Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance.

On the big day they felt ready. The Japanese won by a mile. Afterward, the American team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommended corrective action.

The consultant's finding: The Japanese team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the American team had one person rowing and eight people steering.

After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough were rowing on the American team.

So as race day neared again the following year, the American team's management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.

The next year, the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American corporation laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem."

stlrtruck
06-28-2007, 10:01 AM
The Americans and the Japanese decided to engage in a competitive boat race. Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance.

On the big day they felt ready. The Japanese won by a mile. Afterward, the American team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommended corrective action.

The consultant's finding: The Japanese team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the American team had one person rowing and eight people steering.

After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the consultant firm concluded that too many people were steering and not enough were rowing on the American team.

So as race day neared again the following year, the American team's management structure was completely reorganized. The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.

The next year, the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American corporation laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem."

Why does this sound like the company I work for now???? :toofunny: :toofunny:

Preacher
06-28-2007, 02:43 PM
Well...

I gotta say is, in my family, we have owned four american cars... three chevy's and a ford.

The first Chevy (early 80's) died at 5 miles, blown engine. Died again six months later, bad electirical system, and died two or three more times.

Second chevy (mid 80's) threw a rod, blowing out the engine at only 90,000 miles

Third car, Ford, early 90's blew a head gasket at 85,000 miles.

Fourth car, Chevy, Late 90's, early 2000's, blew the transmission at 60,000.
________________________________________________

We have also had four Japanese cars... all Nissan.

First car, bought in 85, Transmission starting slipping at 150,000+ miles, in 1997.

Second car, Had for seven years, multiple miles, no problems.

Third car, over 100,000 miles, no problems.

Fourth car, 130,000 miles, 1988 model, started have problems in 2000 with the first generation computer...
__________________________________________________ _

When you can buy a better car at a better price, you do it. I will not buy American cars.

The problem is the management, the workers, everything from top to bottom.

Oh yeah... and for the fallacious argument about the money going back to the far east... In this world's economy, that just doesn't happen. Money does not respect international borders anymore. follow me...

Let's say the profits get sent back to Japan. What happens to them? They get put into where? A bank? Okay. That bank now has an extra billion dollars, which it lends out at cut rate interest (since they are paying low interest on it) to other companies in Japan... Like AMERICAN companies competing over there.

However, That bank will more then likely turn around an invest that money back into the stock markets, so they can make money. Do you think they invest ONLY in japanese stocks or Asian stocks? No way. They MUST diversify all over the world so they don't get caught in a market crash, or a regional conflict like war or a terrorist attack that will depress regional markets. Thus, that money goes all over the world, including back to AMERICAN companies and banks.

The money that is then invested gives those people more buying power to increase thier businesses, which increases thier workers' buying power. And what do they buy? Products, many of which ARE MADE IN AMERICA...

Furthermore, Nissan, Toyota, etc., are almost all if not all PUBLICLY traded. WHich means, there are 10's of 1000's if not millions of people who make money EVERY YEAR BECAUSE Nissan, Toyota, etc. bring money back into thier company.

The old union paradigm of keep the jobs and money in the USA is simply passe. It is the equivelent of listening to music on an eight track tape. The world, the economies, the technology has passed that thought pattern by years ago. It is now irrelevant to the world we live in. What we are finding now, is that the companies and unions that can adapt to the new world will survive, the ones that bury thier head in the sand will not.

For a great examply, go look at the history of Big Blue (IBM).

Wow... did the computer age ever make a mockery out of them...

revefsreleets
06-28-2007, 05:50 PM
Sorry, preacher, but that's spin, and I think it's the same type of spin that a lot of smart Americans tell themselves right before they walk into Wal-Mart every weekend.

As complicated as global markets are, It's more complicated than your examples. The quick and dirty version? It's never better for a Country to import things they are capable of making at a deficit. It's an incredibly complex economic model, and I'm too weary to get into it now, but when I get some time, I'll present some reasons and examples why.

Preacher
06-28-2007, 06:29 PM
Sorry, preacher, but that's spin, and I think it's the same type of spin that a lot of smart Americans tell themselves right before they walk into Wal-Mart every weekend.

As complicated as global markets are, It's more complicated than your examples. The quick and dirty version? It's never better for a Country to import things they are capable of making at a deficit. It's an incredibly complex economic model, and I'm too weary to get into it now, but when I get some time, I'll present some reasons and examples why.

Gotta disagree...

It isn't spin, it is how the economy works. money doesn't disapear. The more open the markets are, the more the money will stay in circluation. Problems come wihen money does not circulate, but is hidden "under mattresses," which was the real cause of the great depression. People were too scared to spend money, thus, no one bought goods. the result? The economy came to a halt.

Funny thing. I usually get very leary when people try to make complex what is in actuality a very simple thing... It means that it is being overthought... usually to fit a certain predescribed model (No Revs.. I am not talking about you, but about the models you would present. They are put together by people with agendas... as are ALL things. And usually the more complex, the easier it is to fit the agenda.)

It is like foriegn relations. People try to come up with complex socio/political dynamics which incorporate 1000's of years of history and deal with a million variations... However, foriegn relations can best be described as 10 children in a room with 6 toys. Some will play nicely, some will take for themselves, others will try to police the entire room, some will only protect thier friends, and others just won't care and decide not to play at all.

Stlrs4Life
06-28-2007, 11:22 PM
Well...

I gotta say is, in my family, we have owned four american cars... three chevy's and a ford.

The first Chevy (early 80's) died at 5 miles, blown engine. Died again six months later, bad electirical system, and died two or three more times.

Second chevy (mid 80's) threw a rod, blowing out the engine at only 90,000 miles

Third car, Ford, early 90's blew a head gasket at 85,000 miles.

Fourth car, Chevy, Late 90's, early 2000's, blew the transmission at 60,000.
________________________________________________

We have also had four Japanese cars... all Nissan.

First car, bought in 85, Transmission starting slipping at 150,000+ miles, in 1997.

Second car, Had for seven years, multiple miles, no problems.

Third car, over 100,000 miles, no problems.

Fourth car, 130,000 miles, 1988 model, started have problems in 2000 with the first generation computer...
__________________________________________________ _

When you can buy a better car at a better price, you do it. I will not buy American cars.

The problem is the management, the workers, everything from top to bottom.

Oh yeah... and for the fallacious argument about the money going back to the far east... In this world's economy, that just doesn't happen. Money does not respect international borders anymore. follow me...

Let's say the profits get sent back to Japan. What happens to them? They get put into where? A bank? Okay. That bank now has an extra billion dollars, which it lends out at cut rate interest (since they are paying low interest on it) to other companies in Japan... Like AMERICAN companies competing over there.

However, That bank will more then likely turn around an invest that money back into the stock markets, so they can make money. Do you think they invest ONLY in japanese stocks or Asian stocks? No way. They MUST diversify all over the world so they don't get caught in a market crash, or a regional conflict like war or a terrorist attack that will depress regional markets. Thus, that money goes all over the world, including back to AMERICAN companies and banks.

The money that is then invested gives those people more buying power to increase thier businesses, which increases thier workers' buying power. And what do they buy? Products, many of which ARE MADE IN AMERICA...

Furthermore, Nissan, Toyota, etc., are almost all if not all PUBLICLY traded. WHich means, there are 10's of 1000's if not millions of people who make money EVERY YEAR BECAUSE Nissan, Toyota, etc. bring money back into thier company.

The old union paradigm of keep the jobs and money in the USA is simply passe. It is the equivelent of listening to music on an eight track tape. The world, the economies, the technology has passed that thought pattern by years ago. It is now irrelevant to the world we live in. What we are finding now, is that the companies and unions that can adapt to the new world will survive, the ones that bury thier head in the sand will not.

For a great examply, go look at the history of Big Blue (IBM).

Wow... did the computer age ever make a mockery out of them...



Never read more BS on theinternet anywhere, including many Browns and Bengal message boards.


If the owners are in Japan, China, or wherever, the money goes to them. I don't care where they put that money, bank, mattress, up there ....


Like I said all this BS about cars not made the same is exactly crap. They all use suppliers. All basically the same parts, just made to look different and put on the vehicles.


By the way, I own a 1999 Chevy S-10 and never had a single problem with it, and have over 162,000 mile on it. And my son has a 1995 Chevy S-10 that has had few problems with it. It is all perception, you just have a problem with the Big 3 cars is because they are union members.

GBMelBlount
06-28-2007, 11:55 PM
My point is that it is always easy for the coach to blame the overpaid and undermotivated players when his own job is on the line. But even if Bill Belichick and Art Shell had the same players my money would be on Belichick - same thing with Toyota/Honda v. GM/Ford.

Detroit automakers getting their ass kicked by the Japanese for the last 30 years has a lot more to do with poor management that they will ever admit. Like the Raiders, Detroit has been on a downhill slide for decades.

Possibly. I have had only American cars my entire life. This whole thing is a damn shame. Manufacturing is what made this country great. Look at what we did in WWII. I don't think management is the only problem in our car industry, but it definitely is a big part of it.

SteelersMongol
06-29-2007, 12:09 AM
... It is like foriegn relations. People try to come up with complex socio/political dynamics which incorporate 1000's of years of history and deal with a million variations... However, foriegn relations can best be described as 10 children in a room with 6 toys. Some will play nicely, some will take for themselves, others will try to police the entire room, some will only protect thier friends, and others just won't care and decide not to play at all.

Well said. At least for me it is since I'm in foreign relations. :smile:

As for the money that's in Japan and where it goes, those rich Japanese waste them by sending some of them to the countries like Mongolia for an aid and buy bunch of stuff, including houses and restaurants, on the West Coast or Hawaii. :flap:

revefsreleets
06-29-2007, 07:42 PM
Hey, preach, here are a few thoughts in how US car sales lagging hits hard at home:

First off, for every car manufacturing job created, it’s estimated that as many as 4-5 auto parts/suppliers jobs are also created. If those parts jobs aren’t also in the US, there is a big hit to US manufacturing. Manufacturing is still the basis for creation of wealth.

The argument that Friedman made that all the wealth will eventually make it’s way back to the US sounds good as long as the US economy remains the strongest in the World, but, in true catch-22 fashion, as more and more manufacturing shifts out of the Country, the economy of the US may no longer be the safest bet for investing.

US auto sales shrinking also have a direct impact on the entire US economic policy. Look up the Plaza Agreements from the Reagan years, not to mention the Fed taking lagging sales into consideration when determining the interest rates it charges. Those rates effect everything!

When US car sales shrink, it changes the prices the manufacturers can charge, not as much on new cars as on used, but both directly affect consumer pricing for all goods (Consumer Pricing Index, or CPI).

Looking even further down the road, if US sales continue to decrease, the US auto makers are going to get more aggressive about dumping their unfunded medical liabilities on us taxpayers. And don’t think for a second that it couldn’t happen. Remember who picked up the $150 billion tab for that fiasco?

Just touching a few bases here, but there is just no way that US auto makers losing ground to foreign competitors is good for the US economy.

Stlrs4Life
06-30-2007, 12:11 AM
Hey, preach, here are a few thoughts in how US car sales lagging hits hard at home:

First off, for every car manufacturing job created, it?s estimated that as many as 4-5 auto parts/suppliers jobs are also created. If those parts jobs aren?t also in the US, there is a big hit to US manufacturing. Manufacturing is still the basis for creation of wealth.

The argument that Friedman made that all the wealth will eventually make it?s way back to the US sounds good as long as the US economy remains the strongest in the World, but, in true catch-22 fashion, as more and more manufacturing shifts out of the Country, the economy of the US may no longer be the safest bet for investing.

US auto sales shrinking also have a direct impact on the entire US economic policy. Look up the Plaza Agreements from the Reagan years, not to mention the Fed taking lagging sales into consideration when determining the interest rates it charges. Those rates effect everything!

When US car sales shrink, it changes the prices the manufacturers can charge, not as much on new cars as on used, but both directly affect consumer pricing for all goods (Consumer Pricing Index, or CPI).

Looking even further down the road, if US sales continue to decrease, the US auto makers are going to get more aggressive about dumping their unfunded medical liabilities on us taxpayers. And don?t think for a second that it couldn?t happen. Remember who picked up the $150 billion tab for that fiasco?

Just touching a few bases here, but there is just no way that US auto makers losing ground to foreign competitors is good for the US economy.



Best post Ever! Excellent Post revefreleets.

LarryNJ
06-30-2007, 08:07 AM
I believe that the unions have gotten carried away and they are unnecessary in today's world. That being said I don't believe that the downward spiral of the US auto industry is the fault of the UAW. Any company fails or succeeds because of management.

Our factories are good enough to compete in terms of productivity and quality. Yes quality! It just goes to show how hard it is to get a customer back after you lose one in any business. Just read the comments from this thread. I had a 86 Chevy, a 88 Ford ect. that had problems I'd never buy one again. Well they were junk back than, but in todays world Ford and GM make good quality dependable cars. I wonder how many of those who say I'd never buy an American car read Consumer Reports like it's the bible and think they are unbias? CR is a self promoting organization with unscientific reader based surveys that have low response rates. Who audits them? How do you even know they do a survey? Do you know anyone who bought a new car new car that filled out one of their surveys? Consumer Reports is published by Consumers Union which is a lobbing group. Any lobbing group is bias. Don't believe everthing you read.

Ford and GM have dug themselves a huge hole. I hope that their management finds a way to dig out of it and that the UAW does their share to help.

Stlrs4Life
06-30-2007, 11:28 AM
I believe that the unions have gotten carried away and they are unnecessary in today's world. That being said I don't believe that the downward spiral of the US auto industry is the fault of the UAW. Any company fails or succeeds because of management.

Our factories are good enough to compete in terms of productivity and quality. Yes quality! It just goes to show how hard it is to get a customer back after you lose one in any business. Just read the comments from this thread. I had a 86 Chevy, a 88 Ford ect. that had problems I'd never buy one again. Well they were junk back than, but in todays world Ford and GM make good quality dependable cars. I wonder how many of those who say I'd never buy an American car read Consumer Reports like it's the bible and think they are unbias? CR is a self promoting organization with unscientific reader based surveys that have low response rates. Who audits them? How do you even know they do a survey? Do you know anyone who bought a new car new car that filled out one of their surveys? Consumer Reports is published by Consumers Union which is a lobbing group. Any lobbing group is bias. Don't believe everthing you read.

Ford and GM have dug themselves a huge hole. I hope that their management finds a way to dig out of it and that the UAW does their share to help.



Another excellent post. Great read.

Stlrs4Life
06-30-2007, 11:39 AM
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/120636/article.html




Press Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact:
Jeannine Fallon/Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
www.Edmunds.com
Media Hotline: 310-309-4900
pr@edmunds.com

Edmunds.com Announces Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicle Awards for 2007

Crossover GMC Acadia Named "Most Significant Vehicle" by Consumers

SANTA MONICA, Calif. ? May 3, 2007 ? Edmunds.com, the premier online resource for automotive information, today announced the winners of the sixth annual Edmunds.com Consumers' Most Wanted vehicle awards.

"These awards provide a good idea of what consumers are looking for in their next vehicle," said Karl Brauer, Editor in Chief of Edmunds.com. "This year, consumers voiced the opinion that the domestics are developing some very compelling cars and trucks."

By a considerable margin, the 2007 GMC Acadia won the flagship award, Edmunds.com Consumers' Most Significant Vehicle of 2007. The next highest finisher was the 2007 Saturn Aura, and the 2007 Honda Fit took third place.

Among manufacturers, Chevrolet led the pack, winning five awards, while Cadillac and Honda tied for second place, each winning four awards in this year's survey.

The 2007 winners are:


Most Significant Vehicle of the Year 2007 GMC Acadia

Sedan Under $15,000
2007 Chevrolet Cobalt

Sedan Under $20,000
2007 Honda Civic and
2007 Mazda 3 (tie)

Sedan Under $25,000
2007 Saturn Aura

Sedan Under $30,000
2007 Acura TSX

Sedan Under $35,000
2007 Cadillac CTS

Sedan Under $45,000
2007 Cadillac STS

Sedan Under $60,000
2007 BMW 5 Series

Sedan Over $60,000
2007 Lexus LS 460

Coupe Under $20,000
2007 Honda Civic

Coupe Under $30,000
2007 Ford Mustang

Coupe Under $40,000
2007 Infiniti G35

Coupe Under $60,000
2007 Chevrolet Corvette

Coupe Over $60,000
2007 Porsche 911

Wagon Under $15,000
2007 Kia Rio5

Wagon Under $20,000
2007 Mazda 3

Wagon Under $30,000
2007 Audi A3

Wagon Under $40,000
2007 Audi A4 and
2007 BMW 3 Series (tie)

Wagon Over $40,000
2007 BMW 5 Series

SUV Under $25,000
2007 Toyota RAV4

SUV Under $35,000
2007 GMC Acadia/2007 Saturn Outlook*

SUV Under $45,000
2007 Chevrolet Suburban/2007 GMC Yukon XL/ 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe/2007 GMC Yukon*

SUV Over $45,000
2007 Cadillac Escalade/2007 Cadillac Escalade ESV*

Convertible Under $25,000
2007 Saturn Sky

Convertible Under $35,000
2007 Honda S2000

Convertible Under $45,000
2007 BMW Z4

Convertible Under $60,000
2007 Chevrolet Corvette

Convertible Over $60,000
2007 Cadillac XLR

Compact Truck
2007 Toyota Tacoma

Large Truck
2007 Chevrolet Silverado/2007 GMC Sierra*

Minivan
2007 Honda Odyssey

Exotic
2007 Bugatti Veyron 16.4

* Represents "twin vehicles" that were listed jointly in the ballot. As described in detail in the Edmunds.com article Twinned Vehicles, twin vehicles are built on the same chassis and share most of their under-hood and interior components.

Details on all award winners are listed at:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/consumersmostwanted/2007/index.html.

Each October, Edmunds.com editors present the winners of the Edmunds.com Editors' Most Wanted Vehicle awards. The most recent list of those winners can be found at
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2007/index.html.

About Edmunds Inc. (http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/)
Edmunds Inc. publishes four Web sites that empower, engage and educate automotive consumers, enthusiasts and insiders. Edmunds.com, the premier online resource for automotive consumer information, launched in 1995 as the first automotive information Web site. Its most popular feature, the Edmunds.com True Market Value?, is relied upon by millions of people seeking current transaction prices for new and used vehicles. Edmunds.com was named "Best Car Research Site" by Forbes ASAP, has been selected by consumers as the "Most Useful Web Site" according to every J.D. Power and Associates New Autoshopper.com Study(SM), was ranked first in the Survey of Car-Shopping Web Sites by The Wall Street Journal and was rated "#1" in Keynote's study of third-party automotive Web sites. Inside Line launched in 2005 and is the most-read automotive enthusiast Web site. CarSpace launched in 2006 and is an automotive social networking Web site. AutoObserver.com launched in 2007 and provides insightful automotive industry commentary and analysis. Edmunds Inc. is headquartered in Santa Monica, California, and maintains a satellite office in suburban Detroit.



Can't find the link, but also out 0f 10 assembly plants in the USA, GM had the 1 and 2nd, Ford 3rd Lordstown, Ohio came in 9th. And out of the top 10 Toyota and Honda were in the middle.

Stlrs4Life
06-30-2007, 03:16 PM
http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/19563/2002592785858799388_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002592785858799388)

Preacher
07-01-2007, 10:38 AM
Never read more BS on theinternet anywhere, including many Browns and Bengal message boards.


If the owners are in Japan, China, or wherever, the money goes to them. I don't care where they put that money, bank, mattress, up there ....


Like I said all this BS about cars not made the same is exactly crap. They all use suppliers. All basically the same parts, just made to look different and put on the vehicles.


By the way, I own a 1999 Chevy S-10 and never had a single problem with it, and have over 162,000 mile on it. And my son has a 1995 Chevy S-10 that has had few problems with it. It is all perception, you just have a problem with the Big 3 cars is because they are union members.

Please...

I have no problem with AT&T, and they are union. I have no problem with United Airlines, and they are union. I have no problem with shopping at Rosauers, and they are union. When you paint with a broad brush, you end up being wrong.

Your union worldview is disallowing you to actually read what is in front of you. Fact is, I could care less if the product I buy is union or not. I care about quality. From the cars I and actually, my friends as well, have owned, I STILL won't buy American, because I don't trust the car. Period.

Think what you want, if it makes you happy. But there is a big difference in quality between American and Japanese cars. That difference is definetley shrinking... but it is still there.

silver & black
07-01-2007, 12:34 PM
Why does this sound like the company I work for now???? :toofunny: :toofunny:

I was thinking the same thing. :sofunny: