PDA

View Full Version : SN- Ranking the AFC Tight Ends


tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 12:30 PM
its offseason and we gotta take the good with the bad in all these rankings. here is some good:

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=233598


AFC Focus: Ranking the tight ends


Posted: July 5, 2007

More: NFC Rankings

Where does your team's complement of tight ends rank against the rest of the league? And who's the league's No. 1 overall player at the position?

1. CHARGERS Because he draws double-teams, Antonio Gates might be the most important player on an offense that features league MVP LaDainian Tomlinson. Brandon Manumaleuna is a good blocker who has helped Gates improve in that area.

2. CHIEFS Tony Gonzalez remains a premier receiver and has improved his ability to gain yards after the catch. Jason Dunn is a powerful run blocker.

3. STEELERS Heath Miller is a budding star who has soft hands, runs excellent routes and is tough to bring down. Rookie Matt Spaeth will be a pass-catching option.

4. COLTS Dallas Clark has sure hands, gets downfield and has outstanding after-the-catch skills. Bryan Fletcher and Ben Utecht offer quality depth.

5. BRONCOS Daniel Graham gives Denver a devastating blocker for its running game. Tony Scheffler can split out wide as a receiver in some formations.

6. RAVENS Todd Heap is a versatile weapon. Dan Wilcox has good hands but isn't a deep threat.

7. BROWNS If offseason microfracture surgery stabilized Kellen Winslow's knee, he could be more explosive after the catch. Steve Heiden (6-5, 267) has the size and athleticism to serve as a quality No. 2.

8. PATRIOTS Ben Watson creates mismatches against slower linebackers and smaller safeties and will benefit from the team's beefed-up receiving unit. Kyle Brady basically serves as a third tackle in the running game.

9. TEXANS Owen Daniels, Jeb Putzier and Mark Bruener are solid, and all three will be used often. Daniels' biggest negative is a lack of durability.

10. TITANS The team is running out of patience with Ben Troupe, who has been a disappointment. Bo Scaife is a reliable target for Vince Young.

Top 5 AFC Tight Ends

1. Antonio Gates, Chargers. He's the best downfield threat, and he knows how to box out defenders and get to the ball from his days as a basketball player.
2. Tony Gonzalez, Chiefs. At 31, he hasn't shown signs of decline. His hands are vise grips, and he still has the leaping ability to thrive.
3. Todd Heap, Ravens. He can get downfield and knows how to use his big body to shield defenders from the ball.
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns. After injuries stifled his first two years, Winslow broke out with 89 catches in 2006. But offseason knee surgery brings doubt back into the equation.
5. Heath Miller, Steelers. He has the receiving and blocking ability to move higher on this list.



this may seem a bit shocking, but really it makes sense. in the past 3 drafts we have picked a consensus top 2 collegiate TE. if they are this highly regarded it only makes sense we use them. we may not get a. gates or t. gonzales production (although midway through heaths miller's rookie year he was on pace to tie a. gates td record).

willie parker isnt l. tomlinson or l. johnson, however the chargers or cheifs arent nearly as stacked at wr. n. washington or c. wilson would probably be starters for either team. theres no reason we shouldnt be in the top 10 in offense this year.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
07-07-2007, 12:38 PM
I hope we use the tightends a lot more in the passing game.

fansince'76
07-07-2007, 12:40 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody else also think Gonzalez has slipped a bit over the last couple of seasons?

Edit: Never mind, it was just me:

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Screenshot-3.jpg

Probably more a case of Gates stealing a bit of his thunder. :dang:

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-07-2007, 12:42 PM
I like what they have to say about Miller, but I think that Gonzales is ranked to high. The last couple of year he showed that he has lost a step with Green at QB...what kind of step back will he take with Brodie Croyle at the Helm?

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-07-2007, 12:43 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody else also think Gonzalez has slipped a bit over the last couple of seasons?

Okay..that was weird...I guess great minds think alike!!!!

Livinginthe past
07-07-2007, 01:21 PM
As bad as some of the 'anti-Steelers' articles that have been floating about this year (Ben ranked at 17th and the Rooney's at 9) this seems like a total reach the other way.

Why is Matt Spaeth even getting mentioned?

More than a few people were spitting feathers when Calvin Johnson showed up in the WR rankings but at least he was a genuine All Star college player - Spaeth is a 3rd round draft pick.

I like Heath Miller and think he can be a weapon on offense but reality tells us that he caught for less than 500 yards in his rookie season - then regressed last year to less than 400.

Im fully aware that Pittsburgh haven't made the most of their TE's ability to catch the ball in the past, but why are they ranked at No.3?

The Colts TE's are better by a long way (and actually proven at NFL level) and im not too sure why the Patriots rank as low as No.8 despite having Ben Watson who's production last year improved by 50% on the year before.

Aswell as Kyle Brady they have a guy who used to be Vince Youngs go-to-guy for Texas - David Thomas who has alot of ability as a pass catcher.

Truly a bizarre placing of the Steelers - every bit as out-of-whack with reality as ranking the Rooney's at No.9.

Crushzilla
07-07-2007, 01:30 PM
Well... I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but I feel like I must.

I was complaining before about the Steelers getting snubbed, but this time the Ratbirds did. Todd Heap got robbed at number 5. WIlcox isn't amazing, but how can you rank Heap's 70+ receptions and about 800 yards a year over the past two years 5th?? He has been unjustly overlooked.

I realize that blocking is a large part of the TE position, but Heap's receiving qualities are stellar. To compare, he has about twice as many receptions, yards, and first downs than Miller the past two years.

Wilcox isn't unreal, but a solid backup. More proven than a rookie at least.

As far as run blocking. In Heap's third year (started 16 games). Jamal Lewis ran for over 2,000 yards. Not to mention other successful years together, look at the stats. I realize that the Ravens have a good run blocking line, but can't the same be said for the Steelers?

Phew. That was hard to say... but Ravens at 5? Please.

This is one position that I didn't think we should rank extremely high and did. The ones where we should be shoe ins we get snubbed. I should have this job apparently.

Crushzilla
07-07-2007, 01:33 PM
Grrr... Nigel kind of beat me to it...

Don't you have anything else to do than steal my thunder you old bloke?

boLT fan
07-07-2007, 02:15 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody else also think Gonzalez has slipped a bit over the last couple of seasons?

Edit: Never mind, it was just me:

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Screenshot-3.jpg

Probably more a case of Gates stealing a bit of his thunder. :dang:

I think Tony G's production has gone down because of Larry Johnson getting a ton of rushes.

Livinginthe past
07-07-2007, 02:18 PM
Grrr... Nigel kind of beat me to it...

Don't you have anything else to do than steal my thunder you old bloke?

Who you calling 'old'? ...whippersnapper! (ok that just proved I am old :toofunny:)

j-dawg
07-07-2007, 02:53 PM
heap/wilcox over winslow/heiden ... :coffee:

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 03:01 PM
Well... I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but I feel like I must.

I was complaining before about the Steelers getting snubbed, but this time the Ratbirds did. Todd Heap got robbed at number 5. WIlcox isn't amazing, but how can you rank Heap's 70+ receptions and about 800 yards a year over the past two years 5th?? He has been unjustly overlooked.

.the ravens got snubbed???? this is the easiest argument to put to rest. look at the rankings again. the ravens were ranked #6 as a group, and todd heap was ranked #3 behind only gates and gonzalez in the AFC. :hunch: i dont see the snub unless one feels wilcox is that great. hes not. 31 other teams have a "wicox" on their roster. tuman is easilly better than wilcox and he wasnt even mentionned in the rankings.

As bad as some of the 'anti-Steelers' articles that have been floating about this year (Ben ranked at 17th and the Rooney's at 9) this seems like a total reach the other way. definitely not a "total reach".

Why is Matt Spaeth even getting mentioned? spaeth is arguably the best tight end in the draft last year. the steelers had him as the #1 TE on their board which explains why they couldnt pass on him in the 3rd round. spaeth dropping to 3rd round can be looked at like brady quinn dropping to #22.

More than a few people were spitting feathers when Calvin Johnson showed up in the WR rankings but at least he was a genuine All Star college player - Spaeth is a 3rd round draft pick. i dont think a few people spitting feathers about a wr's individual rankings have any bearing on ranking the steelers TE unit as a whole. TE and WR are 2 completely different positions although spaeth was a collegiate "all star" at his position just the same as calvin was.

I like Heath Miller and think he can be a weapon on offense but reality tells us that he caught for less than 500 yards in his rookie season - then regressed last year to less than 400.

miller didnt regress. his reception numbers did. maybe the coaches did. the o-line definitely did. however his run blocking progressed. he is regarded as one of the finest blocking tight ends in the league. remember were talking about tight ends, whose job is blocking to. it would be different if these rankings were on receivers

Im fully aware that Pittsburgh haven't made the most of their TE's ability to catch the ball in the past, but why are they ranked at No.3? because if you take away gates and gonzales potential hall of fame receiving numbers they clearly have the best unit with the most upside in the league.

The Colts TE's are better by a long way (and actually proven at NFL level) and im not too sure why the Patriots rank as low as No.8 despite having Ben Watson who's production last year improved by 50% on the year before. a "long way", huh? i will refer you to the "why steelers drafted a TE thread" or to nfl.coms "players" section. dallas clark has yet to best millers career high of 39 rec or 6 td in his rookie season. dallas clarks career high in yards (488) is only several more than millers best.

spaeth shattered ben utechts records at minnesota. utecht was a free agent. spaeth who is a bigger specimen was a 1st day pick and the 3rd TE taken in the draft. utecht is in an offense where he and clark started atleast 12 games last year. (no wonder manning is one of the least sacked qb's in the league) spaeth is easilly a better blocker than both clark and utecht. tuman is clearly better than any teams 3rd TE.

ben watson and the pats are right were they should be. unfortunately for him the patriots have this thing called the "patriot way". with the amount of wr's they brought in his numbers will be kept down in hopes of re-signing him on the cheap. there is simply too much competition for the ball and he will never put up ben coats type of numbers even though he clearly has the talent level to do so. as the #1 option in the pats offense last year, if the group was better than 8th, he easilly shouldve been able to put up numbers comparable to the worst of any of gonzalez's or gates's season (after all they are always double teamed) if the pats had their choice between tuman and brady, im pretty sure tuman would be a patriot.

Aswell as Kyle Brady they have a guy who used to be Vince Youngs go-to-guy for Texas - David Thomas who has alot of ability as a pass catcher. at 6-3 and 248 lbs. d. thomas and his 11 receptions may be more of a liability in the scheme the pats run and seems to be more of a "special package" type role player. theyre better off with mike vrabel in there.

Truly a bizarre placing of the Steelers - every bit as out-of-whack with reality as ranking the Rooney's at No.9. doesnt seem bizarre or out of whact to me. where would you rank the steelers big 3?

Livinginthe past
07-07-2007, 03:32 PM
You can argue all you like about who you think is the best TE in the draft, but the fact is - he was still the 3rd guy picked and he lasted until the 3rd round.

That makes it a very weak draft class for TE's in my book.

Until Spaeth shows something on the field he is a non-factor.

I realise that blocking is a key part of being a TE ( we used to have Daniel Graham - possibly the best blocking TE in the game) but the fact remains that its an intangible statistic.

A few guys have standout years and get a rep for good blocking, but its a very subjective thing - people tend to favor a TE they get to see the most footage of - how can you compare him to TE's who you don;t watch on a regular basis?

Do you know how good a blocker Ben Watson is?

Your 'potental upside' theory is shaky at best and hardly quantifiable.

You dont even know enough about how the TE's are going to be used in Pittsburgh this year to be able to comment on their degree of upside.

I dont see how the Patriots are 'where they should be' - Watson caught for more yardage than Miller and your No.2 guy is a rookie (Im not too concerned with how many yards they caught for at Minnesota) is totally unproven.

So Spaeth shattered the records of a guy who didn't even get drafted? Sorry thats not really a big deal is it?

How is Spaeth a better blocker then Utecht?

The Colts have probably the best O-line at pass protection in the league - yet you rate a rookie above their No.2 guy?

As for your comments regarding David Thomas, i'll credit that a lack of time spent watching David Thomas's limited time in the team (i'll remind you that he was behind Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster).

Still, as always, you are welcome to your opinion - though it appears to be based upon a basically unknowable coaching philosophy regarding TE's (Tomlin) and a 3rd round rookie.

Where would I rank the Steelers?

Behind - San Diego, New England, Baltimore, KC, Denver, Indy, St Louis, NYG, Dallas, and Atlanta.

So around 10 or 11, maybe.

fansince'76
07-07-2007, 04:21 PM
....Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster.

Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/WatsBe00.htm)

Heath Miller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MillHe00.htm)

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.

Livinginthe past
07-07-2007, 04:38 PM
Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/WatsBe00.htm)

Heath Miller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MillHe00.htm)

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.

I like the TD's argument - and its conceded.

But I still think yardage is a key factor - Miller may a nice endzone target but he doesnt produce on a regular basis - how you rank these facets of the game is quite subjective.

In terms of depth I still maintain that the Steelers shouldn't be ranked this high.

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 04:54 PM
You can argue all you like about who you think is the best TE in the draft, but the fact is - he was still the 3rd guy picked and he lasted until the 3rd round.

the rankings arent based on where TE's are drafted

That makes it a very weak draft class for TE's in my book.

it was. last year was a weak class for wr's too. didnt seem to effect s. holmes or m. coulstons performance

Until Spaeth shows something on the field he is a non-factor.

why even draft players if theyre not a factor? good players selected are always a factor. just ask r. bush and v. young. (didnt you cite v. young and his go to TE?

I realise that blocking is a key part of being a TE ( we used to have Daniel Graham - possibly the best blocking TE in the game) but the fact remains that its an intangible statistic.

so intangibles have nothing to do with who may be the best unit? i will contend blocking is a very important job and is a great barometer of who may have the best unit. i wont give spaeth all the credit for l. maroney or m. barber jr.'s success in the nfl but he definitely helped them get noticed.

A few guys have standout years and get a rep for good blocking, but its a very subjective thing - people tend to favor a TE they get to see the most footage of - how can you compare him to TE's who you don;t watch on a regular basis?

looks like plenty of scouts saw enough of footage of spaeth to have him ranked where he was. i trust the steelers scouts, much in the same way patriot fans trust belichick and pioli. i'll take my chancesw with their judgement being that i have never scouted spaeth

Do you know how good a blocker Ben Watson is?

hes so good the patriots went out and got an old journeyman named kyle brady

Your 'potental upside' theory is shaky at best and hardly quantifiable.

upside is upside. miller has plenty. k. brady has zero

You dont even know enough about how the TE's are going to be used in Pittsburgh this year to be able to comment on their degree of upside.

i know enough to say their #3 ranking is justified

I dont see how the Patriots are 'where they should be' - Watson caught for more yardage than Miller and your No.2 guy is a rookie (Im not too concerned with how many yards they caught for at Minnesota) is totally unproven.

watson will "regress" in 07. he's not in an offense that will fully utilize his skills, and even if he were the patriots will not pay gonzales or gates money to a TE. argue that point all you want, but the "patriot way" says he will not exceed his best year which was last year. he has 7 career td's. sorry if im not impressed.

So Spaeth shattered the records of a guy who didn't even get drafted? Sorry thats not really a big deal is it?

it is when you are singing the praises of how great clark and utecht is :chuckle:

How is Spaeth a better blocker then Utecht?

he is a better blocker because he blocks the defender better than utecht. dont base your opinion soley on how he helped slow down an aging and tired patriots pass rush in the afc champ game. about 100 nfl scouts would agree with me. check the sources i provided you in my previous post.

The Colts have probably the best O-line at pass protection in the league - yet you rate a rookie above their No.2 guy?

yes. infact, i am willing to bet the colts had spaeth ranked higher than an UDFA on their boards and would gladly trade utecht for him if offered.

As for your comments regarding David Thomas, i'll credit that a lack of time spent watching David Thomas's limited time in the team (i'll remind you that he was behind Daniel Graham and Ben Watson who are both better TE's than anything the Steelers have on their roster).

:rofl:
watson- 3 yrs 80 rec 1100 yds 7 td
miller---2 yrs 73 rec 853 yds 11 td (and one of the best blocking TE's in the league)

Still, as always, you are welcome to your opinion - though it appears to be based upon a basically unknowable coaching philosophy regarding TE's (Tomlin) and a 3rd round rookie.

and as always, thank you for the reminder that a steelerfan is wecome to an opinion on a steelers message board.

Where would I rank the Steelers?

Behind - San Diego, New England, Baltimore, KC, Denver, Indy, St Louis, NYG, Dallas, and Atlanta.

So around 10 or 11, maybe.as a starter, miller has more playoff experience than watson, more playoff wins, and more superbowl experience. other than hopes, and dreams, and perceived potential, what do you possibly have to suggest hes better than miller (as a receiver)? theres no question hes a better blocker.

can you even name the 2nd and 3rd te on dallas, st louis, atlanta, giants squad? whose 3rd behind heap and wilcox? you left out washington's c. cooley in yout TE unit's rankings. does that make the steelers 12th? :chuckle:

fansince'76
07-07-2007, 04:55 PM
I like the TD's argument - and its conceded.

But I still think yardage is a key factor - Miller may a nice endzone target but he doesnt produce on a regular basis - how you rank these facets of the game is quite subjective.

In terms of depth I still maintain that the Steelers shouldn't be ranked this high.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was shocked to see our TE unit ranked that high. Especially after the complete diss of Troy (by another publication) - shows you how subjective these rankings really are. Nothing more than conversation starters, really.

Crushzilla
07-07-2007, 04:55 PM
the ravens got snubbed???? this is the easiest argument to put to rest. look at the rankings again. the ravens were ranked #6 as a group, and todd heap was ranked #3 behind only gates and gonzalez in the AFC. :hunch: i dont see the snub unless one feels wilcox is that great. hes not. 31 other teams have a "wicox" on their roster. tuman is easilly better than wilcox and he wasnt even mentionned in the rankings.

Huh?

Come on, Tony. Statically, you could say that Heath finished in the 3rd tier of TE's last year. The man right before him, L.J. Smith had 611 yards. That's 218 more than Miller who was 13th last year in the league. I'm not saying the Ravens should have been 3rd instead of us... but someone should have. Besides Wilcox had three times more catches and touchdowns than Tuman and Spaeth combined last year :smile:

Truthfully, and this kills me even more, it should be the Brownies in the three hole.

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 05:07 PM
Miller also scored more TDs than Watson on considerably fewer touches:

Ben Watson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/WatsBe00.htm)

Heath Miller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MillHe00.htm)

I don't think their respective numbers support that argument, sorry.yeah, that was a pretty bogus statement. also must be considered is that millers career long receptions are 50 and 87 yds. watsons is 40. its pretty clear that miller is more than just a "red zone threat". having ben watson in fantasy, ive paid pretty close attention to his highlights. he is a abig receiver and doesnt break as many tackles as miller, and he doesnt block as well.

watson is heralded for chasing down a hot dogging champ bailey on an int in a playoff game. impressive indeed. it shows he may be better suited for playing safety in the nfl rather than TE. he still hasnt lived up to that hype and i doubt he ever will on the patriots though. as the #1 receiving option in last years offense he shoulda had a monster year. it was mediocre at best.

i would take the bears desmond clark and greg olsen over the pats top 2 te's.

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 05:16 PM
I'm not saying the Ravens should have been 3rd instead of us... but someone should have. Besides Wilcox had three times more catches and touchdowns than Tuman and Spaeth combined last year :smile:

.well, you did say the ravens got snubbed (and even apologized for saying so).

this ranking is based on AFC units, so lj smith, c. cooley, j. witten, and j. shockey dont even belong in the discussion (although i'll take the steelers 3 te's over theirs any day)

Crushzilla
07-07-2007, 05:18 PM
well, you did say the ravens got snubbed (and even apologized for saying so).

this ranking is based on AFC units, so lj smith, c. cooley, j. witten, and j. shockey dont even belong in the discussion (although i'll take the steelers 3 te's over theirs any day)

To be honest, I didn't even realize that it was AFC :dang:

The Duke
07-07-2007, 05:19 PM
I hope we are ranked 3rd by the end of this season, but as of now I think is too high.

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 05:46 PM
To be honest, I didn't even realize that it was AFC :dang:i shoulda specified that in the title. the SN rankings have been going by conference rankin 1-16 in each. the link in the 1st post will have the link to nfc rankings.

fansince'76
07-07-2007, 05:50 PM
To be honest, I didn't even realize that it was AFC :dang:

i shoulda specified that in the title. the SN rankings have been going by conference rankin 1-16 in each. the link in the 1st post will have the link to nfc rankings.

I went ahead and added "AFC" to the thread title, Tony.

Elvis
07-07-2007, 06:23 PM
Is it just me, or does anybody else also think Gonzalez has slipped a bit over the last couple of seasons?

Edit: Never mind, it was just me:

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Screenshot-3.jpg

Probably more a case of Gates stealing a bit of his thunder. :dang:
Does slipping a bit mean that you still caught 73 passes for 900 yards and 5 tds?
I hope that Heath Miller slips enough this upcoming season to catch atleast that many .. to help take some pressure off of Hines and Holmes...
:tt02:

HometownGal
07-07-2007, 08:11 PM
Does slipping a bit mean that you still caught 73 passes for 900 yards and 5 tds?
I hope that Heath Miller slips enough this upcoming season to catch atleast that many .. to help take some pressure off of Hines and Holmes...
:tt02:

He wouldn't be slipping if he equaled his 2006 TD total, which is 5 - the same # of TDs that Gonzo caught in KC. The most notable difference? Heath didn't have the yard totals that Gonzo did last season but other than Gonzo and Kennison, who really did Green and Huard have as a reliable target on that squad? Ben has more options at wideout, imho, so of course Heath isn't going to get the yardage totals that Gonzo has. Ben has the benefit of having more targets.

fansince'76
07-07-2007, 09:28 PM
Does slipping a bit mean that you still caught 73 passes for 900 yards and 5 tds?
I hope that Heath Miller slips enough this upcoming season to catch atleast that many .. to help take some pressure off of Hines and Holmes...

With all due respect, wedo, I recanted my original position in the same post:

Edit: Never mind, it was just me:

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Screenshot-3.jpg

Probably more a case of Gates stealing a bit of his thunder. :dang:

His TD production is still down, but drawing automatic double coverage makes a difference in the red zone where the field gets really short. And his receptions, total yards, and YPC numbers are still just above his career averages, which clearly doesn't really show he's slipped, not at all.

Preacher
07-07-2007, 10:53 PM
Wow...

This is starting to sound like a Patriots version of "My TE can beat up your TE."

tony hipchest
07-07-2007, 11:12 PM
Wow...

This is starting to sound like a Patriots version of "My TE can beat up your TE."the inferiority complex and delusions of granduer are almost embarrasing.

you would think having the "best" owners, coach, qb, kicker, rb duo, lb corps over the age of 30, wr's, dynasty, chance in 07, and fanbase, would be enough for them. :rolleyes:

im thinking most patfans would even argue (for hours) that they have the best equipment managers and jockstrap scrubbers in the league too.

:jerkit:

(spaeth > v. young's primary target in college) :sofunny: :jammin:

Preacher
07-08-2007, 01:08 AM
im thinking most patfans would even argue (for hours) that they have the best equipment managers and jockstrap scrubbers in the league too.


Nope, Tom Brady proved that the Pats "Equipment managers" aren't always there with the um... "Proper equipment."

Of course... Proper equipment would not be needed if she showed enough class to put a ring on her finger first.

And yeah.. I really believe that.

Livinginthe past
07-08-2007, 04:28 AM
the rankings arent based on where TE's are drafted

So, in terms of the TE's drafted this year, how exactly would you rank them?

When none of the top 3 TE's chosen have actually played a down in the NFL why should the No.3 guy be 'arguably the best'.

They are all 'arguably the best' at this point - depending on your viewpoint.

it was. last year was a weak class for wr's too. didnt seem to effect s. holmes or m. coulstons performance

The exceptions don't prove the rule. A weak looking class remains just that ,and isn't affected by players drafted for another position the year before.

why even draft players if theyre not a factor? good players selected are always a factor. just ask r. bush and v. young. (didnt you cite v. young and his go to TE?

You misunderstand.

Im not saying that they wont turn out to be a factor but there is no way to actually predict how these guys are going to play in the NFL - its where the term 'bust' derives from - players that 'should have made it but didn't'.

Both guys you noted were high 1st round impact players - not exactly the same thing as a 3rd round TE.

For every Reggie Bush there is a bunch of Akili Smith's and Ryan Leaf's.

so intangibles have nothing to do with who may be the best unit? i will contend blocking is a very important job and is a great barometer of who may have the best unit. i wont give spaeth all the credit for l. maroney or m. barber jr.'s success in the nfl but he definitely helped them get noticed.

Intangible just means its not typically measured for ease of comparison - unless you are some type of football obsesssive then I don't see how you can be aware of how the TE's for each of the 32 teams block on a regular basis (or even how much they are expected to block)

looks like plenty of scouts saw enough of footage of spaeth to have him ranked where he was. i trust the steelers scouts, much in the same way patriot fans trust belichick and pioli. i'll take my chancesw with their judgement being that i have never scouted spaeth

Sure, the Steelers coaches have a good succes rate, no argument there but what is Pittsburghs success rate at drafting and utilising TE's recently?

Not good, I would suggest.

Its a little like trying to convince people that the Patriots have had some great FB's the last 5/6 years - its just that we run out of a spread formation alot of the time so you don't get to see how great they really are.

hes so good the patriots went out and got an old journeyman named kyle brady

Brady would be the 'Tuman' in the Steelers line-up. We 'went out and got Brady' because we lost a great blocking TE to Denver.

I'll put my hands up and say I haven't seen enough of Brady or Tuman to say 'who is the best'.

upside is upside. miller has plenty. k. brady has zero

Agreed.

100%.

However, im not comparing Miller to Brady - I would compare him to Ben Watson.

i know enough to say their #3 ranking is justified

Well then. Why don't you share with us this 'insider knowledge' of the new coach and how he plans to utilise the TE's?

Are we going to see more spread formations or more 2 TE sets? How many catches do they envisage for Spaeth this year?

watson will "regress" in 07. he's not in an offense that will fully utilize his skills, and even if he were the patriots will not pay gonzales or gates money to a TE. argue that point all you want, but the "patriot way" says he will not exceed his best year which was last year. he has 7 career td's. sorry if im not impressed.

Well this remains to be seen. In a FF thread I remarked that Watsons value could go either way this year with all the arrivals at WR - it could open up more space and make him the 'open guy' alot more.

Or he could spend alot of time watching the ball winging its way to Stalllworth, Moss and Welker.

What I would suggest is that he won't be double teamed all year, like he was last year.

With Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes on the team - I very much doubt if Miller was double teamed on a regular basis last year?

Was he?

it is when you are singing the praises of how great clark and utecht is

Again, college production is only an indicator of what to expect anf NFL level - no guarantees.

I'll go with pro production that exists somewhere other than the future.

he is a better blocker because he blocks the defender better than utecht. dont base your opinion soley on how he helped slow down an aging and tired patriots pass rush in the afc champ game. about 100 nfl scouts would agree with me. check the sources i provided you in my previous post.


Maybe so. Maybe not. I guess we'll see once they have both started a pro-game.

yes. infact, i am willing to bet the colts had spaeth ranked higher than an UDFA on their boards and would gladly trade utecht for him if offered.


Ok its a bet. Now are you going to phone the Colts F.O. or am I?

Adalius Thomas was a 6th round draft pick - you saying that the Patriots would swap him for a LBer taken in the 2nd or 3rd round of this years draft?

Pro production > rookie draft position - everytime

as a starter, miller has more playoff experience than watson, more playoff wins, and more superbowl experience. other than hopes, and dreams, and perceived potential, what do you possibly have to suggest hes better than miller (as a receiver)? theres no question hes a better blocker.

Personally, I think Watson and Miller are very closely matched - Miller has more TD's as pointed out earlier in the thread by Fansince'76.

But Watson, over the last 2 years that Miller has also been on the league,. has caught for 250 extra yards and been double teamed on a regular basis.

The reason I think the Steelers are too high at 3 is that they have 1 good TE, a rookie and a guy who has caught an average of 5 passes a year since he joined the NFL.

Maybe Tuman is one of those great blocking TE's we just haven't heard about outside of Pittsburgh - but then most teams have an anonymous blocking TE who you 'haven't heard about'.

Which is exactly why I don't have to know a great deal about who is the 3rd TE on those teams I ranked above the Steelers.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2007, 05:48 AM
Does slipping a bit mean that you still caught 73 passes for 900 yards and 5 tds?
I hope that Heath Miller slips enough this upcoming season to catch atleast that many .. to help take some pressure off of Hines and Holmes...
:tt02:

actually ..Gonzo's TD and total receptions totals were the second lowest he has had in the past 9 years so the statement stands as correct....AND I dont think ANYONE can deny that any talented TE would have put up exagerated numbers in Kansas City over the past 12 years due to the lack of a legitimate WR over that time. Most of K.C.'s #1 WR's would be #3 WR's on good teams.
Not taking anything from Gonzo ..I love him for FF...but most teams that have a TE with that type of production is almost always thin at WR. He isnt "taking pressure off his WR's" as much as he is compensating for his WR's

Livinginthe past
07-08-2007, 07:38 AM
actually ..Gonzo's TD and total receptions totals were the second lowest he has had in the past 9 years so the statement stands as correct....AND I dont think ANYONE can deny that any talented TE would have put up exagerated numbers in Kansas City over the past 12 years due to the lack of a legitimate WR over that time. Most of K.C.'s #1 WR's would be #3 WR's on good teams.
Not taking anything from Gonzo ..I love him for FF...but most teams that have a TE with that type of production is almost always thin at WR. He isnt "taking pressure off his WR's" as much as he is compensating for his WR's

Thats a fair point.

I've noticed before that teams with weak WR corps often have a TE who puts up good numbers - San Diego and Atlanta would be two good examples.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2007, 09:31 AM
Thats a fair point.

I've noticed before that teams with weak WR corps often have a TE who puts up good numbers - San Diego and Atlanta would be two good examples.

..and all three teams RB's benefit with the increase responibilities in the run game. With those three teams you have.... 3 teams with TE's that put up big numbers....three teams with great ground games....but 3 teams without one "premier" reciever out of their starting 6 WR's

Livinginthe past
07-08-2007, 10:24 AM
..and all three teams RB's benefit with the increase responibilities in the run game. With those three teams you have.... 3 teams with TE's that put up big numbers....three teams with great ground games....but 3 teams without one "premier" reciever out of their starting 6 WR's

You would think that the target for those teams would be to draft a talented WR in the early rounds (1 or 2) - San Diego took that step this year with Meachem but he is something of an injury worry.

This way they get production from a WR and also at a relatively cheap cost - of course drafting WR's in the early rounds has been a dangerous pass-time for various GM's through the years.

MasterOfPuppets
07-08-2007, 10:52 AM
san diego - craig davis
new orleans - robert meachum

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2007, 11:22 AM
You would think that the target for those teams would be to draft a talented WR in the early rounds (1 or 2) - San Diego took that step this year with Meachem but he is something of an injury worry.

This way they get production from a WR and also at a relatively cheap cost - of course drafting WR's in the early rounds has been a dangerous pass-time for various GM's through the years.

For about 5 years in a row I predicted K.C. to draft a stud WR....this year I gave up and who do they draft????...WR Dwayne Bowe.

Based on those trends (in regards to teams with weaker WR's getting monster production from a talented TE)..we may see the rookie at Chicago being a legit threat this year...or at least the beginning of a threat

MasterOfPuppets
07-08-2007, 12:48 PM
For about 5 years in a row I predicted K.C. to draft a stud WR....this year I gave up and who do they draft????...WR Dwayne Bowe.

Based on those trends (in regards to teams with weaker WR's getting monster production from a talented TE)..we may see the rookie at Chicago being a legit threat this year...or at least the beginning of a threat
as long as grossman is the qb, nobody in chicago's passing game will be a threat....:coffee:

Livinginthe past
07-08-2007, 12:57 PM
san diego - craig davis
new orleans - robert meachum

Thx MOP - for some reason I thought Meacham was in San Diego :cheers:

Crushzilla
07-08-2007, 01:18 PM
as long as grossman is the qb, nobody in chicago's passing game will be a threat....:coffee:

That's why they drafted leak :sofunny:

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2007, 01:29 PM
as long as grossman is the qb, nobody in chicago's passing game will be a threat....:coffee:

I hate Chicago with a passion...but I am going out on a limb and will predict Grossman to have a better year (If he stays healthy)....although better is an arbitrary word with Grossman.

Crushzilla
07-08-2007, 01:42 PM
I hate Chicago with a passion...but I am going out on a limb and will predict Grossman to have a better year (If he stays healthy)....although better is an arbitrary word with Grossman.

I actually agree with you LLT. I think that he is going to look a lot more like he did toward the beginning of the season then he did in the Super Bowl.

Considering last year was his first real year as the "man," he faired pretty well at first. He has the potential and claims that he has located a "major flaw" in his delivery. Apparently he has throwing off his back foot a lot and forgetting to step into the pass...

I always thought that was pretty fundamental... but what do I know other than I'd be be checking my blood pressure a lot if I lived in the Windy City...

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2007, 02:12 PM
I actually agree with you LLT. I think that he is going to look a lot more like he did toward the beginning of the season then he did in the Super Bowl.

Considering last year was his first real year as the "man," he faired pretty well at first. He has the potential and claims that he has located a "major flaw" in his delivery. Apparently he has throwing off his back foot a lot and forgetting to step into the pass...
I always thought that was pretty fundamental... but what do I know other than I'd be be checking my blood pressure a lot if I lived in the Windy City...

Great call!!!...he seems to make his reads...but fails in the delivery.

tony hipchest
07-08-2007, 04:35 PM
So, in terms of the TE's drafted this year, how exactly would you rank them? 1)spaeth 2) olsen 3) z. miller(?) of the raiders 4) arizonas pick out of maryland

When none of the top 3 TE's chosen have actually played a down in the NFL why should the No.3 guy be 'arguably the best'.

They are all 'arguably the best' at this point - depending on your viewpoint. :rolleyes: "Spaeth's credentials include winning the Mackey Award as the college football's best tight end, an honor that also went to Heath Miller, drafted by the Steelers in 2005. :hunch:


The exceptions don't prove the rule. A weak looking class remains just that ,and isn't affected by players drafted for another position the year before. semantics here. if calvin johnson were a wr in last years draft the class as a whole woulda still been "weak" but that would not made him any less of a player individually.


Im not saying that they wont turn out to be a factor but there is no way to actually predict how these guys are going to play in the NFL - its where the term 'bust' derives from - players that 'should have made it but didn't'. hundereds of scouts make a living predicting how players are gonna play in the nfl. pittsburgh has got some great ones. sure their are occasional busts, but with great scouting, like you say, "the exception doesnt make the rule".

Both guys you noted were high 1st round impact players - not exactly the same thing as a 3rd round TE. tight ends typically arent top 5 picks

For every Reggie Bush there is a bunch of Akili Smith's and Ryan Leaf's.ryan leaf is more the exception than the rule. theres a reason r. bush was the consensus #1 player on every teams board (even the texans)



Intangible just means its not typically measured for ease of comparison - unless you are some type of football obsesssive then I don't see how you can be aware of how the TE's for each of the 32 teams block on a regular basis (or even how much they are expected to block) i am a "football obsessive". im trying to train my eye to pay more attention to just the position players

Sure, the Steelers coaches have a good succes rate, no argument there but what is Pittsburghs success rate at drafting and utilising TE's recently?

Not good, I would suggest. :toofunny: lets just go off the cowher era, shall we? the main ones were eric green, mark breuner, jerame stevens, jay reimersma, heath miller, and now we have spaeth. all of those but jay were homegrown talent who had long and productive careers in the nfl. the steelers have consistantly been one of (if not the best) consitant rushing teams in the nfl with these guys helping with our power run game offense. they have also been the winningest team in the league over the same timespan. history shows steelers definitely know how to draft and utilize TE's. "not good???" LMAO!

Its a little like trying to convince people that the Patriots have had some great FB's the last 5/6 years - its just that we run out of a spread formation alot of the time so you don't get to see how great they really are. bad comparison. steelers run out of the 2 te set quite frequently.



Brady would be the 'Tuman' in the Steelers line-up. We 'went out and got Brady' because we lost a great blocking TE to Denver.that must suck. i guess theyre not to high on vince youngs pet they reached for the previous year huh?

I'll put my hands up and say I haven't seen enough of Brady or Tuman to say 'who is the best'.

ive watched both for quite a few years, in his heyday brady was the better TE. (i had him a looong time ago as my FFstarter where he earned the nickname "pyle brady" cause in fantasy terms he was a pile of shit.)

Well then. Why don't you share with us this 'insider knowledge' of the new coach and how he plans to utilise the TE's? i thought i already did?

Are we going to see more spread formations or more 2 TE sets? How many catches do they envisage for Spaeth this year? see below:

Well this remains to be seen. In a FF thread I remarked that Watsons value could go either way this year with all the arrivals at WR - it could open up more space and make him the 'open guy' alot more. well youre stepping out on a limb saying it could go either way. the patriots way says his numbers will be relatively low like that of d. branch in hopes of resigning him once his rookie deal draws near.

Or he could spend alot of time watching the ball winging its way to Stalllworth, Moss and Welker.

watching sounds about right. he definitely is more of a receiver than a blocker.

What I would suggest is that he won't be double teamed all year, like he was last year.

thats a lousy excuse. it certainly doesnt hurt crumpler, gates, or gonzalez.

With Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes on the team - I very much doubt if Miller was double teamed on a regular basis last year?

Was he?after he caught 6 td's in the 1st half of his rookie season he was doubled a ton. if you watch the steelers 4 game run (on the road) on route to their 5th sb victory you can see what a huge impact him getting double teamed had on the rest of the offense (especially the passing game)

Again, college production is only an indicator of what to expect anf NFL level - no guarantees.this article is titled TE rankings, not TE's guranteed production.

Ok its a bet. Now are you going to phone the Colts F.O. or am I?i already know the answer so i'll leave that up to you.

Adalius Thomas was a 6th round draft pick - you saying that the Patriots would swap him for a LBer taken in the 2nd or 3rd round of this years draft?lol. now youre comparing a. thomas (a pro bowler to ben utecht??? completely laughable. atleast i was comparing a te from minnesota to the te who replaced him.

Pro production > rookie draft position - everytime average or sub par pro production has teams drafting replacements. are you really this high on ben utecht? :chuckle: thats funny.

Personally, I think Watson and Miller are very closely matched - Miller has more TD's as pointed out earlier in the thread by Fansince'76. well thats quite a 180 after saying watson was way better than anyone the steelers had on their roster

But Watson, over the last 2 years that Miller has also been on the league,. has caught for 250 extra yards and been double teamed on a regular basis. thats not saying much considering he was the best receiving threat on the patriots offense (as said above great receiving TE's easilly trump being double teamed)

The reason I think the Steelers are too high at 3 is that they have 1 good TE, a rookie and a guy who has caught an average of 5 passes a year since he joined the NFL. and what do all the other teams you mentionned have?

Maybe Tuman is one of those great blocking TE's we just haven't heard about outside of Pittsburgh - but then most teams have an anonymous blocking TE who you 'haven't heard about'. most teams arent consistant leaders in rushing.

Which is exactly why I don't have to know a great deal about who is the 3rd TE on those teams I ranked above the Steelers. well if you dont even know who teams 3rd guys are, you really cant offer much of an educated opinion on who should be ranked the best TE UNITS now can you? heres some facts: i do know that the steelers 3rd TE on the depth chart (currently) won the award for best TE in college last year, has excellent character and tons of accolades and "all collegiate team" nominations throughout his college career. i know his team led their conference in rushing for 2 years, as the relative unknown gophers produced stand outs such as m. barber and l. maroney.:hunch:

you keep asking for "insider knowledge" that i have already directed you to. theres a long thread on it already and i personally recommend the kirwan articles, the article by ed bouschette, the steelers coaches interviews on spaeth, and his bio. i think you will find all the insight you need to see why a rag such as SportingNews would have the gall and audacity to rank the steelers TE UNIT #3.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=16581

you will also find nuggets such as this in his bio:

-2006 Was not called for a penalty in any game?Produced 22 first downs among his 47 grabs, converting 3-of-10 third-down plays and three more on fourth-down action?Eight of his receptions were for 20 yards or longer?Had big plays that set up 11 touchdown drives and one more that resulted in a field goal?Caught 3-of-7 passes thrown to him inside the red zone.

-2005 SEASON All-Big Ten Conference first-team and Academic All-Big Ten choice?Winner of the school's Scholar-Athlete Award?

-2004 SEASON Academic All-Big Ten Conference, adding honorable mention All-Big Ten accolades?Named Minnesota's Scholar-Athlete?Started every game

-2003 SEASON Academic All-Big Ten Conference selection and Minnesota Scholar-Athlete?Earned All-Big Ten Conference Freshman Team honors from The Sporting News?

Livinginthe past
07-08-2007, 06:11 PM
"Spaeth's credentials include winning the Mackey Award as the college football's best tight end, an honor that also went to Heath Miller, drafted by the Steelers in 2005.

Thats fine - he won a college award but its fair to say that certain college programs favor the use of TE's - the way some programs put up big numbers for QB's or RB's.

Last year there were 6 TE's chosen ahead of the position Spaeth was drafted at - that makes me think that its a weak year for TE's - and Spaeth wasn't even the 1st guy picked out of a weak class.

Despite being the 'best TE in football'.

semantics here. if calvin johnson were a wr in last years draft the class as a whole woulda still been "weak" but that would not made him any less of a player individually.

True.

But Calvin Johnson would still have been the 1st WR picked - Spaeth was the 3rd.

hundereds of scouts make a living predicting how players are gonna play in the nfl. pittsburgh has got some great ones. sure their are occasional busts, but with great scouting, like you say, "the exception doesnt make the rule".

Yep and alot of those scouts didn't think he was worthy of either of their 1st two picks - despite the TE being a more and more fundamental part of NFL offenses.

tight ends typically arent top 5 picks

No they aren't, but plenty get picked in the 1st round.

ryan leaf is more the exception than the rule. theres a reason r. bush was the consensus #1 player on every teams board (even the texans)

Reggie Bush has had a nice start as a pro, but i'll be keeping an eye on his sophomore performance before making him the best pick of last years draft.

i am a "football obsessive". im trying to train my eye to pay more attention to just the position players

I guess I asked for that one.

lets just go off the cowher era, shall we? the main ones were eric green, mark breuner, jerame stevens, jay reimersma, heath miller, and now we have spaeth. all of those but jay were homegrown talent who had long and productive careers in the nfl. the steelers have consistantly been one of (if not the best) consitant rushing teams in the nfl with these guys helping with our power run game offense. they have also been the winningest team in the league over the same timespan. history shows steelers definitely know how to draft and utilize TE's. "not good???" LMAO!

Let go of the Cowher era? The Tomlin era has barely begun!

Some of those guys sound like fantastic third tackles.

Riemersma - 8.5 catches a year.
Green - 40 catches a year (i'll give you that one)
Mark Breuner - 15 catches a year.

Out of the list of 3 above ( I don't know who Jerame Stevens is) two were first round picks and the other one wasn't drafted by the Steelers.

Not much in the way of comparison to a 3rd round pick.

Even if he is 'the best TE ion the draft'.

well youre stepping out on a limb saying it could go either way. the patriots way says his numbers will be relatively low like that of d. branch in hopes of resigning him once his rookie deal draws near.

There are alot of new factors this year on the offense - I honestly have no idea which way that will affect Watsons stats.

I have a new found respect for the Patriots achievements, not only have they won 3 SB's, but they've done it while deliberately keeping a lid on individual players stats to make them easier to resign.

Worked with Branch and Vinatieri just fine, didn't it?

Maybe the next step is to stop making the postseason so consistently, that tends to add unneeded extra value to players worth.

thats a lousy excuse. it certainly doesnt hurt crumpler, gates, or gonzalez.

Not really. Watson simply isn't in that league of TE, just yet.

Lets compare the first two years as a starter (Watson was injured nearly all of his 1st year) of each career, as players often break out in their 3rd year and should certainly be improving.

Watson - 78 catches 1084 yards
Crumpler - 61 catches 785 yards
Gates - 105 catches 1353 yards
Gonzalez - 92 catches 989 yards

Out of the group of 4 TE's (two of which are probably HOF) Watson has the 3rd most catches and 2nd most yardage.

Thats some pretty decent company, to say the least, and Watson compares well.

after he caught 6 td's in the 1st half of his rookie season he was doubled a ton. if you watch the steelers 4 game run (on the road) on route to their 5th sb victory you can see what a huge impact him getting double teamed had on the rest of the offense (especially the passing game)


That was a genuine enquiry - appreciate the info.

I do like Miller as a TE.

this article is titled TE rankings, not TE's guranteed production.

Rankings should be based upon more than hot air. Giving a guy a pro- ranking based upon college production is bad practice.

average or sub par pro production has teams drafting replacements. are you really this high on ben utecht? thats funny.

I'd take Utecht over Spaeth, for sure. Utecht plays behind one of the best pass catching TE's in the NFL.

well thats quite a 180 after saying watson was way better than anyone the steelers had on their roster

Im always open to constructive counter points. Fansince'76 made a very good one - I can't ignore the fact that Miller has outscored Watson in TD's.

A '180' would be saying that Watson is now worse than anyone on Pittsburghs roster - a little different to giving Miller some deserved props.

thats not saying much considering he was the best receiving threat on the patriots offense (as said above great receiving TE's easilly trump being double teamed

No they don't. Not at such an early stage of their career (as demonstrated earlier) - this is a case of that upside thing you were so hot on a few posts back.

Watson has plenty when you consider the leap in production in 2006 compared to 2005.

and what do all the other teams you mentionned have?

A better 1st TE and comparable, if not better, blocking TE's.

most teams arent consistant leaders in rushing.

3 yards and a cloud of dust works well in the regular season, I hear. (are we getting back to the Cowher era again?)

well if you dont even know who teams 3rd guys are, you really cant offer much of an educated opinion on who should be ranked the best TE UNITS now can you? heres some facts: i do know that the steelers 3rd TE on the depth chart (currently) won the award for best TE in college last year, has excellent character and tons of accolades and "all collegiate team" nominations throughout his college career. i know his team led their conference in rushing for 2 years, as the relative unknown gophers produced stand outs such as m. barber and l. maroney

My point is that, I have just as much information on the Patriots TE situation as you do on the Pittsburgh situation.

To make out that you have extensive knowledge of of every teams 3rd TE seems a stretch.

I can;t analyze the Tuman type player (3rd TE) on other teams becasue I simply dont see enough Giants, San Diego, Cowboys football to analyze how well their back-up blocking TE performs.

If I did, i'd probably want paying for it.

I won't be giving Pittsburgh much credit for non-existent production from a 3rd round TE - the same as I won't be giving the Arizona run D love for picking an ILB in the 3rd round.

The same as I don't think Minnesota's woeful pass D is improved by their selection of a 3rd round CB.

Its too early to say, and all the college awards in the world won't change that.

tony hipchest
07-08-2007, 09:58 PM
now litp, you know i like the "point/counterpoint" as much as anybody; however i would be doing myself a great disservice (and wasting plenty of keystrokes) defending my and the Sporting News writers point of view without evan accepting a viable defense on your point of view.

is your whole stance really based on this absurd comment pulled out of thin air???:

I'd take Utecht over Spaeth, for sure. Utecht plays behind one of the best pass catching TE's in the NFL.

one of the best? if youre talking about a top 20 te based on the 80 or so on an active nfl roster i guess he is one of the "best". and that makes utecht better how?

it is probably unfair for me to ask you to provide examples or evidence of what other TE UNITS are better than the steelers top 3 when you admittedly dont even know about any 3rd TE's on any teams roster. i suppose you couldnt begin to tell us what the chargers or chiefs contingency plan would be if gates or gonzales went down to an injury but i will assume you think they wouldnt miss a beat.

i'll even simplify this for you if you have anything to offer up. take away the top TE on the 16 AFC teams and tell us whose TE UNITS would be in the best shape. the colts? the patriots?

again this article is ranking TE UNITS not individual TE's. it clearly places heath miller as #5 out of 16 TE's. essentially it is saying he is in the upper 3rd tier of TE's, hardly arguable.

i understand you refuse to step out on a limb and have an opinion on a rookie other than that they are a bust, but by your assertations can i assume you would take the bengals TE's over g. olsen and m. spaeth simlpy because of their "pro game experience"? rookies would never start in the nfl if simple "pro game experience" was the end all criteria.

the steelers have the 2 "best collegiate" TE's in the past 3 years. i dont see any other teams that can claim the same. as for the 6 TE's drafted last year at a higher spot than spaeth, all i can say is leonard pope really set the receiving world on fire and the cardinals running game was superb. he never faced any double teams and he was drafted with thoughts of having an immediate impact. then again he was a project and a combine wonder. spaeth on the other hand is considered nfl ready. like miller, he didnt even need a combine workout to "wow" scouts who didnt do their homework.

i accept your opinions and of course, always assume they will be anti-steeler. however i have brought tons of facts to this discussion. you have brought that watson is way better than anything on the steelers roster (since been blown out of the water) and that utecht is so good because he plays behind "one of the best pass catching TE's in the league".

unfortunately, neither of those "arguments" will fly? do you have anything else? besides the chargers, cheifs, and steelers there are 13 other teams in the afc. can you make a viable argument for any of their TE UNITS to be ranked ahead of pittsburghs?

again, the term "unit" implies that you must take into account the back ups. admittedly, you are not too familiar with teams back ups. i will contend that if the steelers lose their #1 TE they will be in better shape than any other team losing their #1.

for what its worth i think the bears have a really good TE situation with olsen (who many thought should be taken by carolina with the 14th pick or green bay at 16) and. d. clark. the fact that olsen slipped to #31 doesnt diminish his skills, just like being drafted mid round wouldnt increase them.

theres more to a player than simply where they are drafted. as a tom brady fan i would hope you understand this.

spaeth being drafted in the 3rd round as the #3 te, is irrelevant to this whole argument with all other things considered.

Livinginthe past
07-09-2007, 12:53 PM
now litp, you know i like the "point/counterpoint" as much as anybody; however i would be doing myself a great disservice (and wasting plenty of keystrokes) defending my and the Sporting News writers point of view without evan accepting a viable defense on your point of view.

is your whole stance really based on this absurd comment pulled out of thin air???:

I'd take Utecht over Spaeth, for sure. Utecht plays behind one of the best pass catching TE's in the NFL.

No, its obviously not solely based upon that 'absurd comment' (as you put it) - its based on all the many, many other points you decided to ignore becasue you wanted to drop the point/counter point format and indulge in a monologue.

one of the best? if youre talking about a top 20 te based on the 80 or so on an active nfl roster i guess he is one of the "best". and that makes utecht better how?

Put it this way, Utecht is a proven viable back-up TE at NFL level - Spaeth hasn't played a single down in pro-football.

I'll take the known quantity in competition with a 3rd rounder.. And please stop interjecting 1st round picks into the debate - they really are irrelevant.

it is probably unfair for me to ask you to provide examples or evidence of what other TE UNITS are better than the steelers top 3 when you admittedly dont even know about any 3rd TE's on any teams roster. i suppose you couldnt begin to tell us what the chargers or chiefs contingency plan would be if gates or gonzales went down to an injury but i will assume you think they wouldnt miss a beat.

If you read close I said I didn't have to know the 3rd TE's on other teams rosters - of course I know who they are - what I did say was that I wasn't totally aware of their performance in the blocking game.

Contigency plans? The answer really is as simple as looking to the next guy in the depth chart.

Gates goes down - Manumaleuna steps up - he hasn't caught many passes due to Gates' presense but he would be the next guy in line.

Gonzalez goes down and they probably have to make a move into FA and pick up a guy who can catch the ball otherwise they use the TE as a pure blocker.

Claiming that I said they 'wouldn't miss a beat' is just facetious and untrue. San Diego and KC have better units because their No.1 guy is better than Heath Miller and their back-ups are of comparable quality to a guy who has caught 5 passes a year and rookie mid round TE.

i'll even simplify this for you if you have anything to offer up. take away the top TE on the 16 AFC teams and tell us whose TE UNITS would be in the best shape. the colts? the patriots?

Thats a ridiculous offer - why should I waste my time doing that when I can ask you to take away the best RB's in the AFC and tell me who is the best?

Have fun doing it, because we wont learn anything - other than which teams have the most disposable starting RB.

again this article is ranking TE UNITS not individual TE's. it clearly places heath miller as #5 out of 16 TE's. essentially it is saying he is in the upper 3rd tier of TE's, hardly arguable.

Thats fine. In case you haven't realised (yet) i've given Miller his props (the 180 remember?) - its just the rest of the depth in Pittsburgh that doesn't excite me.

i understand you refuse to step out on a limb and have an opinion on a rookie other than that they are a bust, but by your assertations can i assume you would take the bengals TE's over g. olsen and m. spaeth simlpy because of their "pro game experience"? rookies would never start in the nfl if simple "pro game experience" was the end all criteria.

There you go picking 1st rounders for comparison again.

Stick to 3rd rounders.

the steelers have the 2 "best collegiate" TE's in the past 3 years. i dont see any other teams that can claim the same. as for the 6 TE's drafted last year at a higher spot than spaeth, all i can say is leonard pope really set the receiving world on fire and the cardinals running game was superb. he never faced any double teams and he was drafted with thoughts of having an immediate impact. then again he was a project and a combine wonder. spaeth on the other hand is considered nfl ready. like miller, he didnt even need a combine workout to "wow" scouts who didnt do their homework.

What can I say?

Lets see how NFL ready Spaeth is at the end of the year - your consistent eulogising of an unknown college TE is tedious.

Like I mentioned before, I dont expect Minnesota to improve their DB corps because they added an NFL ready CB to the mix in the 3rd round.

i accept your opinions and of course, always assume they will be anti-steeler. however i have brought tons of facts to this discussion. you have brought that watson is way better than anything on the steelers roster (since been blown out of the water) and that utecht is so good because he plays behind "one of the best pass catching TE's in the league".

The problem is that you think everything I say is anti-Steeler. The fact is its only when I make a point that you jump on it. More than a few people agree with my assessment.

unfortunately, neither of those "arguments" will fly? do you have anything else? besides the chargers, cheifs, and steelers there are 13 other teams in the afc. can you make a viable argument for any of their TE UNITS to be ranked ahead of pittsburghs?

I'll do some for you (although you'll just disagree)

Patriots - Watson edges Miller in production. Brady is an excellent run blocker. Thomas is better than Spaeth.

Denver - Graham is of similar quality to Miller, Scheffler and Alexander are better than Tuman and Spaeth.

Baltimore- Todd Heap is better than Heath Miller - and the back-ups are of similar quality to Pittsburghs back-ups.

again, the term "unit" implies that you must take into account the back ups. admittedly, you are not too familiar with teams back ups. i will contend that if the steelers lose their #1 TE they will be in better shape than any other team losing their #1.

You can contend all you like. I'm presuming you are having an untested rookie stepping up into Millers position?

What utter rubbish. I wont be addressing the unproven nature of rookies again.

for what its worth i think the bears have a really good TE situation with olsen (who many thought should be taken by carolina with the 14th pick or green bay at 16) and. d. clark. the fact that olsen slipped to #31 doesnt diminish his skills, just like being drafted mid round wouldnt increase them.

Thats backward logic - of course his skills aren't affected by his draft position! Its the other way round.

Olsen (for the last time) went in the 1st round - you guy went in the 3rd round.

Sooner or later that fact is going to sink in.

theres more to a player than simply where they are drafted. as a tom brady fan i would hope you understand this.

spaeth being drafted in the 3rd round as the #3 te, is irrelevant to this whole argument with all other things considered.

Oh great.

The Brady theory.

Every fanboy poster on this forum has used the '6th round Brady' theory to justify their rampant homerism while assessing their own late round draft picks.

Say hello to Omar Jacobs and the 'new Bettis' Cedric Humes when you see 'em.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-09-2007, 01:34 PM
Last year there were 6 TE's chosen ahead of the position Spaeth was drafted at - that makes me think that its a weak year for TE's - and Spaeth wasn't even the 1st guy picked out of a weak class.
Despite being the 'best TE in football'.





To be fair...Spaeth had a shoulder injury that kept him from completing all combine tests....I had him ranked #2 behind Olson.

Livinginthe past
07-09-2007, 01:52 PM
To be fair...Spaeth had a shoulder injury that kept him from completing all combine tests....I had him ranked #2 behind Olson.

I understand your point, how combine results lead to work out warriors being drafted too high (and the reverse) - but at this point his draft position is his best indication of value (whether it be injury related or whatever).

Its difficult to guess exactly how much worth teams put on the combine workouts.

Plenty of mid round picks over achieve - Spaeth might be one of them.

Then again, he might not.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-09-2007, 02:34 PM
I understand your point, how combine results lead to work out warriors being drafted too high (and the reverse) - but at this point his draft position is his best indication of value (whether it be injury related or whatever).

Its difficult to guess exactly how much worth teams put on the combine workouts.

Plenty of mid round picks over achieve - Spaeth might be one of them.

Then again, he might not.

He is an unkown factor..but I have more faith in the Pittsburgh's scouts ability to locate talent ...then ...say....Cincys two man scouting Corp.

To be truthful...the fact that the FO sees "something" in Spaeth gives me more reason to believe he may be special than the combine or highlight reals will ever be able to do.

Crushzilla
07-09-2007, 04:16 PM
He is an unkown factor..but I have more faith in the Pittsburgh's scouts ability to locate talent ...then ...say....Cincys two man scouting Corp.

To be truthful...the fact that the FO sees "something" in Spaeth gives me more reason to believe he may be special than the combine or highlight reals will ever be able to do.

Although its already been covered in depth, I feel that Spaeth was picked up (in no specific order)

a.) For his history at Minnesota, a primarily "run-first' system much like ours
b.) The possibility he can become a tackle, if he truly is a great blocking TE he may be an option on the thin offensive line
c.) His educational accolades, a cerebral lineman is often more successful than a lug with little concept of a snap count
d.) His size. Even if he is not a primary option in the passing attack his 6'7" frame adds a TON of opportunities to a relatively small core

All and all... worth a third round pick

With that said, however, I still feel the Steelers are ranked a wee-bit too high given that Miller is the only one that we can ACCURATELY assess.

I realize we do have Tuman, but I doubt he was considered by this author since he wasn't named. I feel like if he wasconsidering the "Tuman-factor" he would have stated it to avoid the criticisms he is now facing from knowledgeable fans like the people here at SF (shameless plug completed).

Though after watching the playoff game against the Brownies last night on NFL Network, I am remembering how useful Tuman can be.

I feel it should have went:
3.) Cleveland- Winslow, despite being an ass (which wasn't a critique in this specific consideration) led all tight ends in receptions last year and Heiden has proved that he can be a very reliable target in Kellen's absence... Vroom Vroom...

After that it gets a little blury...

I could interchange these two:
Baltimore- For reasons I've gone into previously
Indy- Everyone is a reliable target in Manning's offense. Dallas Clark has shown reliability and to be quite honest Fletcher and Utecht, I feel, benefit from the impossibility to effectively cover Wayne, Harrison, Clark, and a fourth man...

After that:
Pittsburgh- The potential is there, as shown Miller's rookie year and in Tuman's play before that and as a reliable blocker still in the Miller era. Spaeth, like ALL draft picks, has an opportunity to shine, but has not seen a snap yet at this level. I realize that last point has been argued constantly by both Nigel and Tony, but we have to be realistic. I know I was crying for someone's head after Calvin Johnson was ranked above Hines.

In fact, my overall beef with these ALL these rankings is that they are very forgetful.

My problem with Ben's 17th ranking is that he was the youngest Super Bowl QB ever (I believe) and had astonishing success his rookie year, but one bad year plagued with BRUTAL injuries (we aren't talking tweaked hammies here) set him back a bit. Its hardly enough to demote him so heavily, especially since we missed the playoffs by a freaking game.

Troy's 6th ranking is the same thing. The defense as a whole struggled last year, which took away from Polamalu's opportunity to truly rove effectively. When the defense pulls its weight he becomes 100 times more deadly... but maybe that was the rankers point...

The Rooney's at 9... well... I have no idea what the hell that was about...

I realize that one could say... well that applies to Miller, too... he had a great rookie campaign...

With Troy and Ben though, they have proven themselves with more than one good year.

Winslow, too, has only had one REAL year under his belt, but his numbers were phenominal, much better than Heath's his first year..

WInslow's numbers in 2006 alone are similar to if not better than Miller's two years combined, except for TDs.

Also, Winslow, I feel, has more clearly become a very, very crucial weapon in that offense. Though it may seem like it on the surface, Miller had almost identical stats to his first year. I feel he will be a crucial part of our offense going forward, but I couldn't say as someone on the outside looking in that he is as important to our passing attack as Winslow is to Cleveland. It isn't this guy's job to consider every team's fanbase's homer-ish perception (don't accuse me of pointing fingers, I'm just as guilty and can be QUITE the homer at times). Here, though, I have to speak my mind.

Consider, too, that:
Heiden has had 8 years of experience, same as Tuman...
I realize that Tuman is a block first TE, but Heiden's numbers greatly outweigh his.. I won't go into detail, but check it yourselves... Although I think you'll be content to take my word for it.


Do I like the Steelers TE core. Hell yes. Love 'em. I feel like we have the perfect guys for our type of play.

Do I feel like they are the third best in the AFC? Probably not. Not yet.

Crushzilla
07-09-2007, 04:28 PM
I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me... :wink02:

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 05:18 PM
No, its obviously not solely based upon that 'absurd comment' (as you put it) - its based on all the many, many other points you decided to ignore becasue you wanted to drop the point/counter point format and indulge in a monologue.there was nothing to back up your "points" the were nothing more than your skewed opinion

Put it this way, Utecht is a proven viable back-up TE at NFL level - Spaeth hasn't played a single down in pro-football.spaeth has proven to be worth a 3rd round pick. after all isnt it your contention that since a player is drafted higher he is automatically better?

I'll take the known quantity in competition with a 3rd rounder.. And please stop interjecting 1st round picks into the debate - they really are irrelevant.now this is really a pompus statement. in case you havent figured out this whole thread is about the best TE UNITS in the AFC. you were the one who asked ME to rank the tight ends in this years draft. i did. every tight end on a squad is relevant to this discussion whether they were an UDFA, 1st round pick, old, young or in the middle. its really beginning to seem like it is your OPINIONS are irrelevant especially since you think you can dictate what gets discussed.

If you read close I said I didn't have to know the 3rd TE's on other teams rosters - of course I know who they are - what I did say was that I wasn't totally aware of their performance in the blocking game. of course you do :rolleyes: if youre not totally aware, i guess you cant say any of them are better than pittsburghs now can you?

Contigency plans? The answer really is as simple as looking to the next guy in the depth chart. yep. that means theyre the best, right?

Gates goes down - Manumaleuna steps up - he hasn't caught many passes due to Gates' presense but he would be the next guy in line.

Gonzalez goes down and they probably have to make a move into FA and pick up a guy who can catch the ball otherwise they use the TE as a pure blocker. wow, pittsburghs got 3 guys who can catch the ball and block. i guess that means theyre a pretty good unit.

Claiming that I said they 'wouldn't miss a beat' is just facetious and untrue. San Diego and KC have better units because their No.1 guy is better than Heath Miller and their back-ups are of comparable quality to a guy who has caught 5 passes a year and rookie mid round TE.

i didnt claim you said shit. here we go with the deception tactics. funniest thing is you even quoted EXACTLY what i said:

but i will assume you think they wouldnt miss a beat. :chuckle:

Thats a ridiculous offer - why should I waste my time doing that when I can ask you to take away the best RB's in the AFC and tell me who is the best? why engage in a debate if youre afraid to put your money where your mouth is and defend your "points". TE depth is obviously a factor in deciding who has the best TE UNITS in the AFC.

Have fun doing it, because we wont learn anything - other than which teams have the most disposable starting RB.
and the diversion tactics are soon to follow. this isnt the best RB UNIT in the afc thread.



Thats fine. In case you haven't realised (yet) i've given Miller his props (the 180 remember?) - its just the rest of the depth in Pittsburgh that doesn't excite me. care to share what TE depth on the other teams that do excite you to help support your point?



There you go picking 1st rounders for comparison again.

Stick to 3rd rounders.

again. pretty damn pompus. dont tell me what to stick to. i will discuss all TE's and the UNITS they belong to as i feel free. you dont set the parameters of what is being discussed here.


Lets see how NFL ready Spaeth is at the end of the year - your consistent eulogising of an unknown college TE is tedious.

lol he was obviously "unknown" only to you. :chuckle: so is that really a point thet even deserves response or just a flamboyant opinion?

Like I mentioned before, I dont expect Minnesota to improve their DB corps because they added an NFL ready CB to the mix in the 3rd round.

more diversion? what does this discussion have to do with minnesota db's? did they steal a top CB in the nation that i missed out on.



The fact is its only when I make a point that you jump on it. More than a few people agree with my assessment. :huh: yes. and i see dead people.



I'll do some for you (although you'll just disagree)

Patriots - Watson edges Miller in production. lol Brady is an excellent run blocker. pure opinion. tuman is better. Thomas is better than Spaeth. lol

Denver - Graham is of similar quality to Miller, Scheffler and Alexander are better than Tuman and Spaeth. any facts (or atleast any supporting opinions) to back this up

Baltimore- Todd Heap is better than Heath Miller - and the back-ups are of similar quality to Pittsburghs back-ups. care to name them? wow. i didnt know the ravens had the best collegiate te award winner on their roster.



You can contend all you like. I'm presuming you are having an untested rookie stepping up into Millers position? of course. miller goes down and spaeth steps up. after all it was heath miller that steped up and allowed the steelers to cut a proven NFL veteran TE named reimersma. are you stating that a rookie TE cant start in this league? spaeth is a smart cookie. he picked up the TE position immediately in college and he will pick up the steelers playbook just the same. i have no worries in his capabilities as a back up. or do only the patriots have the capabilities of plugging in a rookie and still finding success.

What utter rubbish. I wont be addressing the unproven nature of rookies again. :chicken:



Thats backward logic - of course his skills aren't affected by his draft position! Its the other way round.
theres more to it than just skills. injuries play a part in draft position. if it were all about skills, heismann winning troy smith wouldnt have slipped to the 6th round.
Olsen (for the last time) went in the 1st round - you guy went in the 3rd round.

Sooner or later that fact is going to sink in. sooner or later you will figure out this article was written about TE UNITS in the AFC. olsen was basically the last pick in the 1st round which among nfl circles is essentially looked at as the 1st pick in the 2nd round. (we all know the colts werent picking a TE with their 1st pick. if spaeth were at the combine he very well coulda been a 2nd rounder too. its all relative. do you even care to address why olsen went so high and spaeth went so low? olsens draft value was inflated by the reputation of shockey and winslow jr. if i were a gm i would find it rather risky to draft a player based on 2 other players mouths and reputation :hunch: but thats just me. regardless i still find it hilarious that you would take the bengals top 2 TE's based on "nfl production" over the top 2 collegiate TE's regardless of draft position. that cant do much for your credibility.


Every fanboy poster on this forum has used the '6th round Brady' theory to justify their rampant homerism while assessing their own late round draft picks.

is the 3rd round now considered a "late round draft pick" :huh: i always thought it was considered a 1st day or atleast mid round draft pick.

Say hello to Omar Jacobs and the 'new Bettis' Cedric Humes when you see 'em.

keep them "facts" coming!

and yes, i have something for your greatest act of deflection in this thread. i see how you spun ben watson as a potential hall of famer along with gates and gonzales:

Not really. Watson simply isn't in that league of TE, just yet.

Lets compare the first two years as a starter (Watson was injured nearly all of his 1st year) of each career, as players often break out in their 3rd year and should certainly be improving.

Watson - 78 catches 1084 yards
Crumpler - 61 catches 785 yards
Gates - 105 catches 1353 yards
Gonzalez - 92 catches 989 yards

Out of the group of 4 TE's (two of which are probably HOF) Watson has the 3rd most catches and 2nd most yardage.

Thats some pretty decent company, to say the least, and Watson compares well.


you conviniently left out the TD's and had to add 1st 2 years "as a starter".... OH YEAH! you also left out heath miller! :toofunny:

Miller 73 catches 852 yards 11 td's (1 SB)
wow. an unproven rookie (best college TE) was plugged into an offense in his 1st year and actually played in, and won a sb. watson "earned" a ring riding the pine though right? im sure that will help when hall of fame voting comes up.

Livinginthe past
07-09-2007, 05:29 PM
I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me... :wink02:

I doubt is. He is way too busy convincing the world (or at least the world that reads SF :wink02:) that Spaeth is a fantastic addition to a powerful TE line-up in Pittsburgh.

Just because we haven't really seen anybody agree with this line of thinking doesn't mean its not right.....its not like we are on a Steelers board or anything.....

I reckon if we ran a poll on how strong the Pittsburgh TE unit is we'd get an illuminating response - bearing mind there is always a degree of homerism on every board.

That gives me an idea.....

Livinginthe past
07-09-2007, 05:40 PM
Tony, i've read that exhibition in circular logic and 'my opinion is better than your opinion' BS.

Quite frankly, its a bit boring having to state, then re-state every point 3 or 4 times just so you can say the direct opposite.

I don't mind attempting to clarify what I have typed and debating its merits but I find we rarely get anywhere once you sink your fangs into a debate - back and forth, back and forth.

I look at the original article and see there is very lttle in the way of in depth explanation of why the rankings fell the way they did - yet I am supposed to give a thesis on my rankings?

You asked me to tell you why I ranked Pittsburgh below certain teams - and I did so - and the best you can manage in response is 'lol' and to state the opposite.

Its me doing all the work here while you pick and choose what to respond to.

I've said my bit on the subject.

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 06:02 PM
I see Tony is reading this thread now... only a matter of time before I get my ass handed to me... :wink02:1 big difference... you didnt throw out a bunch of lame uneducated comments such as [and i paraphrase] "watson is way better than anything on the steelers roster" or the steeleres werent good at drafting and utilizing TE's" or "theres no way you can compare a player drafted in the 3rd round to a player drafted in the 1st].

im sure after a simple re-read of this thread i could find atleast 5 more bogus statements LITP randomly pulled out of the proverbial "bucket o bung."

i will give you that winslow is a great 1 dimensional receiving TE. and the colts definitely have a solid group. but after all the nagging injuries a player like clark has had, a stigma starts to follow. and i will use the stigma that has followed kevin jones and rex grossman as examples of how multiple injuries can have an effect on players when these types of rankings are put together.

and ultimately i have the "magic" of the rooneys and F.O. and scouting department to fall back on when it comes to plucking gems from the draft, that many overlook.

i guess LITP is gonna abandon this thread and get to work on a poll... *sigh*

i guess i should get to work on a poll asking whether ike taylor should be banned from having a roommate and speaking to younger players to make him a better player. (lets see if he includeds NFC teams in his poll.)

Preacher
07-09-2007, 06:10 PM
:popcorn: Tony vs. LITP Round 23241


ding ding ding!

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 06:43 PM
Its me doing all the work here while you pick and choose what to respond to.

I've said my bit on the subject.in jest you asked twice for insider knowledge on how the steelers coaches plan to use their TE's. i provided 50 plus posts and links on that subject alone. go figure... you didnt even aknowledge it.

you mistakenly state that steelers coaches arent able to draft and utilize tight ends, yet when i provide undisputable evidence to the contrary the only response is a mockingly snide comment to the tunes of me reverting back to the "cowher era"...

lol. what the hell else am i supposed to fall back on? the belichick era?

thats too bad that you are done with this thread. having you "tap out" is usually never this easy.

fansince'76
07-09-2007, 07:08 PM
:popcorn: Tony vs. LITP Round 23241


ding ding ding!


Yep. Mind sharing some of that popcorn, Preacher?

http://www.cybergifs.com/funny/Tom-Jerry.gif

:chuckle:

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 07:29 PM
Yep. Mind sharing some of that popcorn, Preacher?

http://www.cybergifs.com/funny/Tom-Jerry.gif

:chuckle:

:chuckle:

"fight, fight, fight,...fight, fight fight..."

lilyoder6
07-09-2007, 08:18 PM
lol.. thats is funny

Preacher
07-09-2007, 09:12 PM
Yep. Mind sharing some of that popcorn, Preacher?

http://www.cybergifs.com/funny/Tom-Jerry.gif

:chuckle:

Sure... Coming your way!!

MasterOfPuppets
07-09-2007, 09:16 PM
I doubt is. He is way too busy convincing the world (or at least the world that reads SF :wink02:) that Spaeth is a fantastic addition to a powerful TE line-up in Pittsburgh.
Just because we haven't really seen anybody agree with this line of thinking doesn't mean its not right.....its not like we are on a Steelers board or anything.....

I reckon if we ran a poll on how strong the Pittsburgh TE unit is we'd get an illuminating response - bearing mind there is always a degree of homerism on every board.

That gives me an idea.....
actually sporting news agrees....after all they did rank them at 3....:coffee:

tony hipchest
07-09-2007, 09:31 PM
seriously, litp, before you take your ball and go home, i really wanna know why heath miller was left off of this list of greatness you offered up:

Watson - 78 catches 1084 yards
Crumpler - 61 catches 785 yards
Gates - 105 catches 1353 yards
Gonzalez - 92 catches 989 yards

Miller 73 catches 852 yards 11 td's (1 SB)
is it because all those you listed needed to sit around for a year in a reserve role to "learn" the offense?

or is it because it was unfair that h. miller has participated in (and won) about as many playoff games as those 4 combined?

maybe he was just the beneficiary of a great team.

oh wait. the steelers were a 6th seed wild card team.

beneficiary of a great qb?

oh wait. ben was just a 2nd year "game manager".

beneficiary of a great running game?

oh wait. it was old man 2nd stringer bettis and "flash in the pan" never been a starter and undrafted parker.

perhaps it was that great wr corps?

oh wait, it was el, ward and wilson.

it had to be the coaching staff right? or was it possible that the best collegiate te could actually come in as a rookie and prove his worth?

again, i still dont get what your list proved, although i think the intent was to show how "great" watson is/was.

next time you offer a list such as this to support a "point" try to be a little less see through and biassed. miller blew them all away when you compare their 1st seasons in the nfl. (in receiving and blocking) feel free to offer up the last rookie TE to have tha same impact in the nfl as miller. (just go on receiving stats, as i know that will bhe much easier for you).

what was that about steelers not knowing how to draft or utilize TE's?actually sporting news agrees....after all they did rank them at 3....:coffee:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/ono_whap.gif

and here i was convinced i was standing all alone. oh wait... i started this thread based on shared opinions!

HometownGal
07-10-2007, 10:47 PM
Tony, i've read that exhibition in circular logic and 'my opinion is better than your opinion' BS.

Quite frankly, its a bit boring having to state, then re-state every point 3 or 4 times just so you can say the direct opposite.

I don't mind attempting to clarify what I have typed and debating its merits but I find we rarely get anywhere once you sink your fangs into a debate - back and forth, back and forth.

I look at the original article and see there is very lttle in the way of in depth explanation of why the rankings fell the way they did - yet I am supposed to give a thesis on my rankings?

You asked me to tell you why I ranked Pittsburgh below certain teams - and I did so - and the best you can manage in response is 'lol' and to state the opposite.

Its me doing all the work here while you pick and choose what to respond to.

I've said my bit on the subject.

Geez Louise, Nigel - Tony has a different opinion than you do - so what? :dang: This is, after all, a board of opinions.

If I were you, I wouldn't go bungee jumping any time soon. :flap::wink02:

http://www.akrondesign.com/foundation/images/items/jumboscissors.jpg

and I most definitely would wear a turtleneck to bed at night. :wink02::flap:

http://www.russellpeck.com/images/dracula.jpg







BOO! (Bet you jumped, didn't ya?) :flap:

Crushzilla
07-10-2007, 10:50 PM
http://www.russellpeck.com/images/dracula.jpg







BOO! (Bet you jumped, didn't ya?) :flap:

That picture of Tony gets me every time :chuckle:

tony hipchest
07-10-2007, 11:16 PM
:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::toofunny:

who knew having a differing point of view backed up with actual facts and supporting opinions would classify someone as a bloodsucking vampire? actually im beginning to wonder if i was being compared to an evil, hellish, mythical beast or the mass murderer vlad the impaler? im getting a complex here.

"i vant to suck yore blud.... BOO!" :sofunny: