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View Full Version : Why dont they talk about Noll


Buzz05
07-31-2007, 08:52 AM
Alright, with the passing of Bill Walsh yesterday there is a poll on si.com asking who is the greatest coach of all time. It has Walshe, Shula, Lombardi, Landry...and Paul Brown. Dont get me wrong, Walsh was a great coach and innovated the offensive system within the game.

My question is this to everyone. When the conversation of great coaches come up with the so called 'experts' why dont any of them bring up Noll. I mean he only turned a seller-dweller of a franchise into arguably the best team ever. And he innovated the defense with the Steel Curtain. Sure he had all those HOF members but someone had to coach them and get them to perform. I duno I would like to know everyone elses thoughts on this. I just feel Noll gets the short end of the stick when it comes to conversations like these.

1207
07-31-2007, 09:02 AM
I agree. If you are going to include Landry in that conversation, you have to also include Noll. After all Noll is the ONLY coach to ever take his team to win four Super Bowls, and two of those were at "the great" Tom Landry's expense. But that is ESPN for you, all flash, no substance.

steelpride12
07-31-2007, 09:31 AM
I still think Noll is the best coach that there ever was. You can't complain about 4 superbowl rings no one else has done that.

fansince'76
07-31-2007, 09:40 AM
Doesn't surprise me - Noll got summarily dissed back in the day too. Of course, SI is a joke, so who cares?

steel#1
07-31-2007, 09:42 AM
Noll doesn't ever appear to get any credit, although he did get credit as the best on Mike and Mike in the morning. But then rarely is it ever mentioned that Dungy came from the Noll coaching tree.

83-Steelers-43
07-31-2007, 10:11 AM
IMO, a good bit of it has to do with Noll's personality. A very quiet and reserved coach for the most part. He wasn't a big interview type of guy, he did not have his own TV show on FSN Pittsburgh and you never saw him in a commercial. The man never tooted his own horn or felt the need to paste his face on your television screen and he always gave credit to his players, never himself.

And finally, this is SI we are talking about here. Just my opinion.

moedap
07-31-2007, 10:32 AM
Does anyone know if Noll travels to give speeches? If so him not being talked about as one of the best probably lowers the fees he could charge for speaking. I hate the argument that his genius was in who he drafted and not how he coached those HOF'rs.

Mosca
07-31-2007, 11:50 AM
I think that part of it was also due to the lackluster performance of Steelers teams after the Bradshaw era, and the fact that not many of Noll's assistants went on to successful head coaching careers, Dungy notwithstanding.

I would put Noll in the top 10, but is he really up there with those guys listed over his entire career?


Tom

Jman
07-31-2007, 11:51 AM
ESPN - 'nuff said.

fansince'76
07-31-2007, 11:53 AM
I think that part of it was also due to the lackluster performance of Steelers teams after the Bradshaw era, and the fact that not many of Noll's assistants went on to successful head coaching careers, Dungy notwithstanding.

I would put Noll in the top 10, but is he really up there with those guys listed over his entire career?


Tom

I think he matches up with Landry - the Cowboys were no great shakes for the most part during the '80s either.

The Duke
07-31-2007, 11:54 AM
Nothing new, our steelers always seem to get ignored

Buzz05
07-31-2007, 11:57 AM
I think he matches up with Landry - the Cowboys were no great shakes for the most part during the '80s either.

Exactly and when landry retired the cowboys were terrible. The Steelers were atleast respectable at their lowest point. I just think its a case of Oh the 70's Steelers again...lets look past them.

RoethlisBURGHer
07-31-2007, 12:03 PM
Exactly and when landry retired the cowboys were terrible. The Steelers were atleast respectable at their lowest point. I just think its a case of Oh the 70's Steelers again...lets look past them.

It's the truth...the 70's Steelers get passed over all the time.

There will be players in the HoF with less credentials than some of those 70's Steelers that aren't in because they don't want a "Steelers" bias.I think that's complete bull.If they guy was that damn good,let him in,no matter what team he played for.

To avoid Steelers bias,Rod Woodson will probally go in as a Raven (you know those jackasses are just itching to put a player in the HoF as a Raven).

Buzz05
07-31-2007, 12:08 PM
It's the truth...the 70's Steelers get passed over all the time.

There will be players in the HoF with less credentials than some of those 70's Steelers that aren't in because they don't want a "Steelers" bias.I think that's complete bull.If they guy was that damn good,let him in,no matter what team he played for.

To avoid Steelers bias,Rod Woodson will probally go in as a Raven (you know those jackasses are just itching to put a player in the HoF as a Raven).

That bias ticks me off. There should be more from that team in the HOF but again they refuse to.

And as far as Rod going in a Rat Bird. It will never happen. If anyone listens to his commentary on NFLN they know he lights up when he talks about the Steelers. The other teams were just lay overs. The Steelers were his life

fansince'76
07-31-2007, 12:18 PM
Exactly and when landry retired the cowboys were terrible. The Steelers were atleast respectable at their lowest point.

And as far as the "disciple" thing goes, I don't see a lot of Landry "disciples" in the HC ranks of the NFL nowadays either.

RoethlisBURGHer
07-31-2007, 12:20 PM
That bias ticks me off. There should be more from that team in the HOF but again they refuse to.

And as far as Rod going in a Rat Bird. It will never happen. If anyone listens to his commentary on NFLN they know he lights up when he talks about the Steelers. The other teams were just lay overs. The Steelers were his life

But the player doesn't get to choose what team he goes in under,that's the problem.

I agree,if the Ravens were to make another Super Bowl...Woodson wouldn't be wearing a Ravens jersey.

But that is where he won his only ring,so that'll be why the NFL and HoF will probally have him go in as a Raven.

Buzz05
07-31-2007, 12:25 PM
And as far as the "disciple" thing goes, I don't see a lot of Landry "disciples" in the HC ranks of the NFL nowadays either.

Landry disciples...hmmmm :confused:

SteelerWatch
07-31-2007, 12:56 PM
That bias ticks me off. There should be more from that team in the HOF but again they refuse to.

And as far as Rod going in a Rat Bird. It will never happen. If anyone listens to his commentary on NFLN they know he lights up when he talks about the Steelers. The other teams were just lay overs. The Steelers were his life

Quoth the Raven, "... there's just something about playing in the Black and Gold ..."

He'll go in as a Steeler.

Mosca
07-31-2007, 01:03 PM
But Landry has longevity, and the Cowboys of the '60s were a hot team. Landry is credited with inventing the 4-3 defense, and he had 20 consecutive winning seasons, from 1966 through 1985; and he, too, took a doormat team (the Cowboys were 0-11-1 in 1960) to the championship game in 1966.

I'm not positing Landry over Noll; I wouldn't have chosen him over Noll as a coach for my team. But looking at it dispassionately, you can see why people would choose one over the other. I am a Cowboys hater going way back, but the hate was never for Landry; he was a great guy who happened to coach the team I loved to hate.


Tom

jjpro11
07-31-2007, 01:34 PM
That bias ticks me off. There should be more from that team in the HOF but again they refuse to.

And as far as Rod going in a Rat Bird. It will never happen. If anyone listens to his commentary on NFLN they know he lights up when he talks about the Steelers. The other teams were just lay overs. The Steelers were his life

rod loves the steelers and steelers fans will always love rod. even rooney has said he regrets letting him go.

fansince'76
07-31-2007, 01:38 PM
But Landry has longevity, and the Cowboys of the '60s were a hot team. Landry is credited with inventing the 4-3 defense, and he had 20 consecutive winning seasons, from 1966 through 1985; and he, too, took a doormat team (the Cowboys were 0-11-1 in 1960) to the championship game in 1966.

I'm not positing Landry over Noll; I wouldn't have chosen him over Noll as a coach for my team. But looking at it dispassionately, you can see why people would choose one over the other. I am a Cowboys hater going way back, but the hate was never for Landry; he was a great guy who happened to coach the team I loved to hate.


Tom

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to diss Landry - I agree, Landry should be mentioned in a conversation of great coaches in NFL history, but so should Noll.

Mosca
07-31-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to diss Landry - I agree, Landry should be mentioned in a conversation of great coaches in NFL history, but so should Noll.

I guess I was replying more to buzz05 and those who say he matches up well with Landry: I think that according to the data, he doesn't. You really do have to take into account the intangibles to get the two to match up at all. And that goes to the point made by 83/43 that since Noll was never one to call attention to himself, all the intangibles that we know so well are lost to history.

And based on what we know about Chuck Noll, that suits him just fine; it's the way he would want it.


Tom

VolatileMan
07-31-2007, 02:31 PM
All this talk of Bill and his coaching tree got me thinking of an angle I didnt see before.

Chuck Noll
|__
Tony Dungy
|__
Mike Tomlin

I love it!!!

VolatileMan

OneForTheToe
07-31-2007, 03:06 PM
There is a poll at yahoo sports about modern era coaches that does include Noll.

Here is the current count:

Bill Belichick 27%
Chuck Noll 18%
Bill Parcells 6%
Bill Walsh 50%

Not surprising that Walsh would be way out front given his recent death.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl

memphissteelergirl
07-31-2007, 03:09 PM
Sadly, I do not think Coach Noll will not get the full credit he deserves until after he's gone.

1207
07-31-2007, 03:22 PM
Here is how I would rank the top head coaches in the moderan era (1966-present).

1. Lombardi
2. Noll
3. Walsh
4. Shula
5. Gibbs
6. Parcells
7. Belichick
8. Landry
9. Madden
10.Cowher

Atlanta Dan
07-31-2007, 05:12 PM
I think Noll's reputation suffers somewhat from all the talent that team had on both sides of the ball (which was drafted with Noll's involvement and was coached up by Noll and his staff).

In recent years, Belichick's rep has been coaching less than overwhelming talent at all positions to three SBs. However, the Pats of this era have faced nowhere near the competition of the Bengals (74-77 version) and Oilers (75-79) inside the division and Dolphins, Raiders, and Cowboys (the NFL Network's top 10 SB teams included those 3 '70s teams) ouside the division that the Steelers faced, so you can only measure by how often you won in your own era.

Even with talent (mid-80s Bears/mid-70 Raiders anyone?), winning repeatedly is no lock. When Noll had the cards, he did not just clear the table - he cleared the room.

IMHO he is outranked only by Brown, Walsh & Lombardi as a modern era HC.

Steel Pit
07-31-2007, 10:41 PM
But Landry has longevity, and the Cowboys of the '60s were a hot team. Landry is credited with inventing the 4-3 defense, and he had 20 consecutive winning seasons, from 1966 through 1985; and he, too, took a doormat team (the Cowboys were 0-11-1 in 1960) to the championship game in 1966.

I'm not positing Landry over Noll; I wouldn't have chosen him over Noll as a coach for my team. But looking at it dispassionately, you can see why people would choose one over the other. I am a Cowboys hater going way back, but the hate was never for Landry; he was a great guy who happened to coach the team I loved to hate.


Tom

During that era all coaches were great guys. You didn't have all of the criminals that have run rampant through the NFL over the past 15 years or so. Even though Landry was a great guy, I still HATED him I HATED him and everything about the Cowboys even though they were all great guys.

Steel Pit
07-31-2007, 10:43 PM
Here is how I would rank the top head coaches in the moderan era (1966-present).

1. Lombardi
2. Noll
3. Walsh
4. Shula
5. Gibbs
6. Parcells
7. Belichick
8. Landry
9. Madden
10.Cowher


Cowher #10? No freaking way. He's not even top 25 all time.

Preacher
07-31-2007, 11:08 PM
Cowher #10? No freaking way. He's not even top 25 all time.


Definitely top 25...

Definitely not top 10. His great win percentage, his unbelievable stats of winning every game but one when his team was up by what...11 points I think it was... what was it... 6 AFCCG's 2 SB's 1 victory... how many AFC Central and North division champions?

Yeah, he is definitely in the top 25.

1207
08-01-2007, 08:06 AM
Cowher #10? No freaking way. He's not even top 25 all time.

You are probably right. After thinking about it more, Jimmy Johnson should be number 10 in the modern era. Cowher is not in the top 25 of all time, but is definately in the top 20 of the modern era (when the Super Bowls started, 1966-present).

Buzz05
08-01-2007, 08:23 AM
Personally I would put Hank Stram on that list as well. He was a good coach back in the day for the Chiefs and had the longevity from the pre-super bowl era through the first couple of years as well.

wardswarriors86
08-01-2007, 09:00 AM
I agree that Noll doesn't get the credit he deserves. I believe Walsh gets the genius label in part due to the players he drafted. Noll should get the same credit. That being said, I think Walsh has a slight edge over Noll as Walsh left a couple of Super Bowls on the table. There is no doubt in my mind that the team would have won it the next year with him just as easily as it did with Seifert and then some. As far as the best coaches of the modern era, I don't think Cowher deserves to be in the top ten. I would put Marv Levy ahead of him as well as Jimmy Johnson, Tony Dungy, Bud Grant, Hank Stram, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, and maybe Mike Ditka.

stlrtruck
08-01-2007, 09:23 AM
How can you include Noll in the conversation when he is the landmark to determine what makes a great coach!!!

SteelerWatch
08-01-2007, 12:00 PM
I would put Marv Levy ahead of him as well as Jimmy Johnson, Tony Dungy, Bud Grant, Hank Stram, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, and maybe Mike Ditka.

Whooooaaaaa. Marv Levy was 0-4 in the Bowl. Cowher was 1-1. Dungy has only won it once, and hasn't been "almost there" quite enough yet. He's good, but Cowher still has more street cred, IMHO. Shanahan could be there, but I have to point out the fact that he stuck with Jake Plummer too long. Of course, the same could be said about Cowher and Stewart, so it's a tossup. Shanahan did inherit one of the best QBs in the game, though, so that takes away a small amount of his credibility.

Homgren and Ditka could be there too. It's really the "muddled middle" of SB-winning coaches with Cowher, Dungy, Shanahan, Holmgren and Ditka. Levy is just a step below, but four straight losses in the Super Bowl is not greater than or equal to a single win. A single loss can be blamed on individual players, but if you come back time and time again with essentially the same group and you can't figure out how to win it? That's a coach issue.

rbryan
08-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Another beauty contest, who cares.

I'm pretty sure Noll is happy to be left out of the conversation if he has to die in order to get someones attention at SI, ESPN etc...

Mosca
08-01-2007, 12:44 PM
And rbryan cuts to the core of it!

Tom

albany80
08-02-2007, 06:59 PM
IMO, a good bit of it has to do with Noll's personality. A very quiet and reserved coach for the most part. He wasn't a big interview type of guy, he did not have his own TV show on FSN Pittsburgh and you never saw him in a commercial. The man never tooted his own horn or felt the need to paste his face on your television screen and he always gave credit to his players, never himself.

Walsh one time blew up at blackjack table in Tahoe, "Don't you know who I AM!?!?" I guess he was upset he wasn't recognized or "respected".

I don't recall a single story that gave face time to Noll during the pre-SuperBowl stuff with all the Dungy storylines.

Preacher
08-02-2007, 07:42 PM
too each their own.

How can one judge? Would Cowher have done as well in San Fran in the 80's? Would Walsh have done as well in Pittsburgh?

These things crack me up...

but since they continue, I would say top 25... but who knows?

rog
08-03-2007, 10:52 AM
Whooooaaaaa. Marv Levy was 0-4 in the Bowl. Levy is just a step below, but four straight losses in the Super Bowl is not greater than or equal to a single win. A single loss can be blamed on individual players, but if you come back time and time again with essentially the same group and you can't figure out how to win it? That's a coach issue.


What Levy and the Bills were able to do is amazing. 4 SB's in a row, no team will ever do this again. I know they lost all 4 but to be able to dominate the AFC for 4 straight years is amazing. He is def. higher than Dungy, Shanahan, Ditka. I think Cowhers win % has to get him top 20 or even top 15 honors. Remember while he was in Pittsburgh no team won more games than his Steelers. That is very impressive not to mention the AFC C games and the SB's.

fansince'76
08-03-2007, 10:59 AM
What Levy and the Bills were able to do is amazing. 4 SB's in a row, no team will ever do this again. I know they lost all 4 but to be able to dominate the AFC for 4 straight years is amazing.

I respectfully disagree - the AFC was the weak sister of the NFL at that time much the same way the NFC is now. NFC teams didn't win 13 consecutive SBs by luck. Right before the Bills began their 4-year run, Elway pretty much single-handedly got the Broncos to 3 SBs in 4 years (all lopsided losses). The Bills at that time were simply the strongest team in a VERY weak AFC. I wasn't impressed with the Bills then and I'm not now. Sorry.

rog
08-03-2007, 11:08 AM
I respectfully disagree - the AFC was the weak sister of the NFL at that time much the same way the NFC is now. NFC teams didn't win 13 consecutive SBs by luck. Right before the Bills began their 4-year run, Elway pretty much single-handedly got the Broncos to 3 SBs in 4 years (all lopsided losses). The Bills at that time were simply the strongest team in a VERY weak AFC. I wasn't impressed with the Bills then and I'm not now. Sorry.


Weak AFC or NFC aside you have to agree it will never happen again. That's gotta count for something don't it?

OneForTheToe
08-03-2007, 11:18 AM
Weak AFC or NFC aside you have to agree it will never happen again. That's gotta count for something don't it?


Bud Grant is in the Hall and he lost four Super Bowls. Granted, Bud Grant had more overall victories that Marv Levy, but I have to agree Marv does deserve to be there.

Welcome To Smashmouth
08-03-2007, 08:05 PM
They dont talk about him....they name stadiums after him!!