PDA

View Full Version : 14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens


HometownGal
08-05-2007, 06:07 PM
I received this in an email just a little while ago. I am outraged, to say the least. :pissed::pissed:

Hope these 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read by the majority of Americans. Then they will have something to yell at their U.S. Congress members.

14 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens...

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal
aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance
programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal
aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal
aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary
school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word
of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the
American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal
aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal
aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for
Welfare &social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American
wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate
that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular,
their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the
United States . http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal
aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal
aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth,
heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S. from the Southern border.
Homeland SecurityReport: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total
cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an
average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year
period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances
back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million
Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

So using the LOWEST estimates, the annual cost OF ILLEGAL
ALIENS is $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR! So if deporting them costs
between $206 and $230 BILLION DOLLARS, get rid of em', We'll be ahead
after the 1st year!!!

Atlanta Dan
08-05-2007, 06:35 PM
A small price to pay for keeping the cost of lawn care and construction projects down.

The way to go after illegals is to whack the businesses that employ them - fat chance of that happening given the laissez faire stance of the current Chief Executive (and for that matter the attitude of Bush as well) when it comes to regulation of the economy.

Hammer67
08-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Although I am a big proponent of immigration reform, chain letters and unsubstantiated lists of figures don't do much to sway me. I would like to see the source of this information before commenting on it as we may be looking at an internet hoax they likes of which www.snopes.com debunks daily...

HometownGal
08-05-2007, 09:39 PM
Although I am a big proponent of immigration reform, chain letters and unsubstantiated lists of figures don't do much to sway me. I would like to see the source of this information before commenting on it as we may be looking at an internet hoax they likes of which www.snopes.com debunks daily...

There are links which support these facts at the end of each statement. Some are from CNN transcripts. Click 'em and read for yourself.

Hammer67
08-06-2007, 07:13 AM
Whoops...overlooked the links!! At first glance, this looked much like this list:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Good find. More ammunition for the discussion.

CantStop85
08-06-2007, 11:07 AM
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate
that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular,
their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the
United States . http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

I love this quote. What happened to the non-illegal blacks, hispanics, asians, and others? Are we deporting them too?

What a joke.

Hammer67
08-06-2007, 01:25 PM
I love this quote. What happened to the non-illegal blacks, hispanics, asians, and others? Are we deporting them too?

What a joke.

If they committed felonies, I don't care what color they are...I wish we could deport them and have someone else cover the tab. :cheers:

stlrtruck
08-06-2007, 03:31 PM
A small price to pay for keeping the cost of lawn care and construction projects down.

The way to go after illegals is to whack the businesses that employ them - fat chance of that happening given the laissez faire stance of the current Chief Executive (and for that matter the attitude of Bush as well) when it comes to regulation of the economy.

I agree with you EXCEPT that it's the government's attitude on the whole matter, not just Bush's. I mean if we are going to blame the government, let's blame everyone because, IMHO, congress is more at fault than the president.

revefsreleets
08-06-2007, 05:14 PM
No offense, but this whole "Blame Bush for everything" mentality gets old, and really just obfuscates the fact that the whole system is broken.

As for the wasted taxpayer dollars, I'd be interested in finding a way to get these people to shoulder their own tax burden if we aren't going to deport them. While we are at it, we should also eliminate these tax breaks for foreigners who open shop here but spend six months and one day a year in their home country to avoid paying tax. They enjoy all the benefits, but bear none of the burden. Ridiculous.

MasterOfPuppets
08-06-2007, 05:39 PM
No offense, but this whole "Blame Bush for everything" mentality gets old, and really just obfuscates the fact that the whole system is broken.

As for the wasted taxpayer dollars, I'd be interested in finding a way to get these people to shoulder their own tax burden if we aren't going to deport them. While we are at it, we should also eliminate these tax breaks for foreigners who open shop here but spend six months and one day a year in their home country to avoid paying tax. They enjoy all the benefits, but bear none of the burden. Ridiculous.
what's the old saying ?...." if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem ".....old GW has had , or will have, 8 years to be part a solution the american people have been screamin for. your right,the system is broke....but isn't that why we have periodic elections? don't we vote people in to FIX the problem ? if you hire someone to fix your car, do you not hold them accountable when it still runs like crap?

revefsreleets
08-06-2007, 06:30 PM
Checks and balances. Is Congress off the hook just because they are Democratically controlled?

It's no coincidence that their approval rating is even lower than Bush's is. Bush is a boogeyman for the left, a scapegoat for every damned thing that's went wrong in this country for the last 25 years, and it's ludicrous. The WHOLE system needs fixed, and this partisan nonsense just clouds the issue.

Preacher
08-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Checks and balances. Is Congress off the hook just because they are Democratically controlled?

It's no coincidence that their approval rating is even lower than Bush's is. Bush is a boogeyman for the left, a scapegoat for every damned thing that's went wrong in this country for the last 25 years, and it's ludicrous. The WHOLE system needs fixed, and this partisan nonsense just clouds the issue.

Thank you :thumbsup:

Atlanta Dan
08-06-2007, 07:11 PM
No offense, but this whole "Blame Bush for everything" mentality gets old, and really just obfuscates the fact that the whole system is broken.

As for the wasted taxpayer dollars, I'd be interested in finding a way to get these people to shoulder their own tax burden if we aren't going to deport them. While we are at it, we should also eliminate these tax breaks for foreigners who open shop here but spend six months and one day a year in their home country to avoid paying tax. They enjoy all the benefits, but bear none of the burden. Ridiculous.

You may not want to admit it, but your point about the broken tax system actually supports my contention that the system works just fine and is not broken as far as those who are deriving the most economic benefit from our current policies are concerned.

As far as blaiming Bush first, whether you agree or disagree with his policies on the subject (I am on record as strongly disagreeing) the incumbent certainly has not let Congress or the U.S. Code stand in his way when it cmes to othr natinal security issues as wiretapping and data mining transnational communications. If he wanted to do something about illegals he would have dne it and told the courts + Congress to get lost.

About his only contribution to the immigration problem since he has been the Decider was his amnesty bill. At least the Dems can claim some misguided sympathy for the downtrodden when it comes to their support for illegals - Bush simply appears to be afraid of alienating Hispanic voters and his contributors who benefit from keeping wages down.

BettisFan
08-06-2007, 07:14 PM
ur telling me i live in texas now! what a difference from pittsburgh omg so many illegals here get them out!!

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-06-2007, 07:25 PM
http://immigrationcounters.com/

here's a little something that will make your eyes bug out. :jawdrop:

HometownGal
08-06-2007, 07:31 PM
http://immigrationcounters.com/

here's a little something that will make your eyes bug out. :jawdrop:

Holy Mother of God - those figures are just mind-blowing!!! :jawdrop:

Y'know what is really sad? In the not too distant future, we Americans are going to be minorities in our OWN COUNTRY!!!

BettisFan
08-06-2007, 07:33 PM
omg it makes me so angry

fansince'76
08-06-2007, 07:33 PM
Holy Mother of God - those figures are just mind-blowing!!! :jawdrop:

Y'know what is really sad? In the not too distant future, we Americans are going to be minorities in our OWN COUNTRY!!!

Come to Denver sometime - American citizens already seem to be the minority here.

BettisFan
08-06-2007, 08:01 PM
denver no way man, wow but come to houston i its overrun by them

revefsreleets
08-06-2007, 08:11 PM
You may not want to admit it, but your point about the broken tax system actually supports my contention that the system works just fine and is not broken as far as those who are deriving the most economic benefit from our current policies are concerned.

As far as blaiming Bush first, whether you agree or disagree with his policies on the subject (I am on record as strongly disagreeing) the incumbent certainly has not let Congress or the U.S. Code stand in his way when it cmes to othr natinal security issues as wiretapping and data mining transnational communications. If he wanted to do something about illegals he would have dne it and told the courts + Congress to get lost.

About his only contribution to the immigration problem since he has been the Decider was his amnesty bill. At least the Dems can claim some misguided sympathy for the downtrodden when it comes to their support for illegals - Bush simply appears to be afraid of alienating Hispanic voters and his contributors who benefit from keeping wages down.

Wow. How much of this is analytical acumen and how much is just hate for a man? Checks and balances again. Doesn't the much more unpopular congress still have veto override power? Has Bush even vetoed anything from Congress? These guys are all in cahoots.

As for "deriving the most benefit", think about what you just said in the context of this particular subject. Aren't the illegal aliens and manipulative foreigners the ones benefiting most from these scenarios? I don't think these guys are even allowed to register to vote, and they aren't likely to vote Republican if they were. This isn't some vast right wing conspiracy, it's a horribly broken system, and, as far as I can see, when pretty intelligent people like yourself get caught up in the semantics and unimportant and diversionary minutiae, it's just another victory for "them".

Hammer67
08-06-2007, 08:53 PM
Wow. How much of this is analytical acumen and how much is just hate for a man? Checks and balances again. Doesn't the much more unpopular congress still have veto override power? Has Bush even vetoed anything from Congress? These guys are all in cahoots.

As for "deriving the most benefit", think about what you just said in the context of this particular subject. Aren't the illegal aliens and manipulative foreigners the ones benefiting most from these scenarios? I don't think these guys are even allowed to register to vote, and they aren't likely to vote Republican if they were. This isn't some vast right wing conspiracy, it's a horribly broken system, and, as far as I can see, when pretty intelligent people like yourself get caught up in the semantics and unimportant and diversionary minutiae, it's just another victory for "them".

Absofreakinglutely.

And on top of all of that...what can these people say to the hard working immigrants who pay their dues and come into this country legally? I wish I could just break a law because I disagreed with it.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-06-2007, 10:37 PM
Holy Mother of God - those figures are just mind-blowing!!! :jawdrop:

Y'know what is really sad? In the not too distant future, we Americans are going to be minorities in our OWN COUNTRY!!!

the future is already here . I live in the great state of Mexifornia formerly known as California it's already happened. I am the minority, white, woman and a Steeler Fan!

And English well that is a thing of the past.

BettisFan
08-06-2007, 10:44 PM
how do we know this site is legit?

Counselor
08-07-2007, 10:18 AM
I'm going to be a voice of dissent on this one. I absolutely believe there needs to be reforms in the system, but I don't agree with most of you on this. I'd like to see some numbers on how much illegal aliens put back into the economy with their labor etc. I've known a few (who are currently legal (with visas and trying to get citizenship). They work very hard at jobs that most "Americans" wouldn't even consider---especially in argiculture and certain service industries.

The reason the government turns a blind eye---I believe---is because illegals fill a certain niche in our economy.

I know this isn't the subject of the post, but the talk about "building a wall" really angers me. People use the safety/trerrorism excuse, but that is just BS. The 911 terrorists entered through Canada---don't hear anything about a wall up there.

MACH1
08-07-2007, 10:31 AM
Its not like we have a problem with Canadians sneaking into the country either and living off our tax dollars.

Hammer67
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Its not like we have a problem with Canadians sneaking into the country either and living off our tax dollars.

Exactly!

It's a simple matter of them being here ILLEGALLY!! And, no one ever addresses the heart of the issue.

What the hell is wrong with Mexico? If they had any national pride, why not stay and try to fix their country? What is wrong with that country????

BettisFan
08-07-2007, 12:20 PM
by the time i have kids we will need to move to canada

MACH1
08-07-2007, 12:51 PM
by the time i have kids we will need to move to canada

And learn how to speak french. :sofunny:

revefsreleets
08-07-2007, 03:55 PM
I'm going to be a voice of dissent on this one. I absolutely believe there needs to be reforms in the system, but I don't agree with most of you on this. I'd like to see some numbers on how much illegal aliens put back into the economy with their labor etc. I've known a few (who are currently legal (with visas and trying to get citizenship). They work very hard at jobs that most "Americans" wouldn't even consider---especially in argiculture and certain service industries.

The reason the government turns a blind eye---I believe---is because illegals fill a certain niche in our economy.



There is no doubt that these illegals work and they may indeed "fill a niche", but they are still not shouldering their weight. If they are working off the books, they aren't paying taxes, and their bosses aren't paying taxes on them either. I'd say the odds are that if a guy will employ illegals, he's probably involved in other questionable business practices. The bottom line remains that these people need to contribute their share of taxes if they want to reap the benefits. I don't even care if the contributions they make above the table actually account for the burden they present, it's the principle of the thing.

MasterOfPuppets
08-07-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm going to be a voice of dissent on this one. I absolutely believe there needs to be reforms in the system, but I don't agree with most of you on this. I'd like to see some numbers on how much illegal aliens put back into the economy with their labor etc. I've known a few (who are currently legal (with visas and trying to get citizenship). They work very hard at jobs that most "Americans" wouldn't even consider---especially in argiculture and certain service industries.
The reason the government turns a blind eye---I believe---is because illegals fill a certain niche in our economy.

I know this isn't the subject of the post, but the talk about "building a wall" really angers me. People use the safety/trerrorism excuse, but that is just BS. The 911 terrorists entered through Canada---don't hear anything about a wall up there.you know what angers me? riding by a construction site and seeing 50 mexicans working when i'm laid off ,because the company i work for was outbid on the job ,because thier paying LEGAL wages, to LEGAL citizens of this country!!

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-07-2007, 08:07 PM
They work very hard at jobs that most "Americans" wouldn't even consider---especially in argiculture and certain service industries.

It's a matter of Mexico not giving a crap and sending their poor, uneducated to the US so they don't have to deal with them. Go on the net and look at Mexico's immigration policy here I'll post the website for you it will make your butt pucker http://www.lonestardiary.com/?page_id=476.
and http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm

As far as agriculture do what Colorado is doing their using prisoners to do their agriculture work and if I have to hear "jobs american's don't want to do " one more time I'm going to :puke:
Sorry but I say build the damn fence. I'm not sure where you live but I live in California and this state has gone right into the toilet. English has become a thing of the past billboards are in Spanish, emergency rooms are overrun our school system is a joke, uninsured morotists are all over the road, gang member run a muck and who do you think is picking up the slack ? I am Joe taxpaying citizen. Sorry if your here illegally your breaking the law and I for one am getting awful tired of paying for it. I agree with master of puppets as far as construction work goes that USED to be a very good paying occupation not any more these low life employers are looking for nothing but cheap labor. Sorry but I'm putting the violin away on this one I say get rid of their ass and ship 'em out of here and you can send Bush the senate and the house of representatives with 'em because they sure don't speak for me.

Hammer67
08-07-2007, 09:05 PM
Amen, brother... :jammin:

MasterOfPuppets
08-08-2007, 06:25 PM
would someone please tell me who did the work that "americans wont due " 30 years ago ,BEFORE , we had 20 + million illegals? i seem to remember there being vegetables in the market 30 years ago ......who in the hell was pickin them? :hunch:

Preacher
08-08-2007, 07:09 PM
Sadly, I think the real answer is so far buried, that very few will ever really admit it.

The more Americans that fall into the entitlement mentality, the more they will create a vacuum for illegal activity to happen.

I am absolutely against illegal entry in this nation by ANY nationality... including Irish and Italian, which I am.

The problem here, is the same as the drug problem, it is one of supply, demand, lots of posturing, little being done... and in the end, big political stands.

Reagan gave amnesty to illegal aliens... that was supposed to be it.

Neither he nor the democrat congress, neither Clinton nor the democrat/republican congress, neither Bush nor the republican/democrat congress did anything the stem it afterwards.

As soon as ANYONE tries to do something about it, everyone is up in arms about how it is a human rights issue. There are cities which are choosing to become a "City of Refuge" where the police will not cooperate with border agents, nor the federal government.

But is sure is politically popular to "Blame Bush" for this problem. And before you Republicans jump on the bandwagon... Guess what, if it is a Democrat elected next... The next game will be "Blame --democrat name--"

Please. Don't tell me it isn't politics, it isn't both sides playing for power. Anyone who thinks that is just fooling themselves.

Godfather
08-08-2007, 07:50 PM
The worst thing is our borders aren't just open, they're unsupervised.

Achmed can put a sombrero on his head, walk across the border, and say "Me llamo Juan."

Then he can start taking care of lawns, which justifies buying fertilizer. If he's patient, he can fill a Ryder truck....

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-08-2007, 07:54 PM
what I find funny is Bush want to send our national guard over to Iraq to secure their borders. He can't secure our borders and he wants to secure theirs this country does everything bass ackwards.

Dynasty
08-08-2007, 10:06 PM
What pisses me off about the goddamned mexicans is that the think its their god-given right to come to america and screw things up for the rest of us.

also, they provide a good source of democrat propagnanda:

there are about 45-50 million americans w/o healthcare
about 25 million illegal aliens
that means that only about 20-some million citizens out of ofer 300 million americans don't have healthcare

in my opinion, around 15 percent is a stat i can live with, especially when many of that remaining 20 mill is "fringe members of society" like people who are living off of welfare with no contribution to society..

verks36
08-08-2007, 10:12 PM
Also to add to the list they take away jobs of the americans lower class. And they crowd up all the hospitals because a hosptial cant turn any on away and then they dont pay for it. The second time i dislocated my shoulder. A stupid mexican was in fronting of me because he had a dam splinter in he foot. And he was bitching because i went ahead of him.

My poltics teacher is so pro illegal immgration and says that america economy runs on them

I am going to show her this then will see who she wants crossing our boarder

RoethlisBURGHer
08-08-2007, 10:30 PM
In my area,my friends are out of work because of all the illegal Mexicans taking the construction jobs.The employers don't want to have to pay thier workers $15/hour to do a hard and dangerous job when they can pay some stupid illegal Mexican less than minimum wage to do the same thing half-assed and high/drunk.Oh,and if an illegal dies on the job,the company doesn't have to do anything about it besides get rid of the body...because the person never existed in the first place.

Atlanta Dan
08-09-2007, 12:22 AM
Wow. How much of this is analytical acumen and how much is just hate for a man? Checks and balances again. Doesn't the much more unpopular congress still have veto override power? Has Bush even vetoed anything from Congress? These guys are all in cahoots.

As for "deriving the most benefit", think about what you just said in the context of this particular subject. Aren't the illegal aliens and manipulative foreigners the ones benefiting most from these scenarios? I don't think these guys are even allowed to register to vote, and they aren't likely to vote Republican if they were. This isn't some vast right wing conspiracy, it's a horribly broken system, and, as far as I can see, when pretty intelligent people like yourself get caught up in the semantics and unimportant and diversionary minutiae, it's just another victory for "them".

Bush & Rove know what happened to the GOP in California after former GOP Governor Pete Wilson ran hard against immigrants in the mid-90s. Legal Hispanic/American citizen voters are the fastest growing demographic group in the country. Both the Dems and GOP are terrified of doing anything on immigration that is regarded as "Hispanic bashing" and will tilt the three largest states of the 21st century (California/Florida//Texas), each of which have large Hispanic populations, into the column of the opposing party.

Hate to break it to you but an illegal making less than $7.50 an hour is not benefiting the most from low wage rates - instead, it is companies that exploit the surplus value of labor that benefit the most from paying lower wages to increase profits.

And as far as "hate for the man" my views on Bush are not driven by personal animosity against him, seeing as I voted for him in 2000 - it is many of his policies (Iraq/deficit spending/lack of accountability for the executive branch) that I despise. As for Bush not vetoing anything from Congress, he had a GOP Congress for the first six years of his Administration.

In closing, before you accuse someone else of getting "caught up in semantics" I would appreciate some guidance as to what exactly you mean when you refer to "manipulative foreigners" and a "victory for 'them'"

Preacher
08-09-2007, 12:23 AM
Um.... Guys (and Gals)...

First off, it isn't "Mexicans" it is Latinos. Not because I am politically correct, but because a big number of those illegal aliens are not from Mexico. They are other central and south AMerican countries.

What is more interesting, is the border control the Mexican government uses... It is pretty tough. Much tougher then ours. THen they turn around and complain about the US and its border control.

Steelerstrength
08-09-2007, 01:18 AM
When making a case, in such a sensitive issue that can result in more public anger, can numbers from CNN be our most reliable source? Unfortunately not, but we don?t really know who to believe, what web sites are complete fabrications that twist numbers and statements to fit their agenda, and why they would choose to incite division?

Real Immigration Reform must be a top priority for our country! And by not expediting the process and resolution, the issue is creating more division, fear, and in some cases hate for our fellow human beings. It is indeed that serious!


Here are just a few things I noticed in briefly looking over the ?14 Reasons to Deport??

#1 "...reason to deport illegal aliens..." is quoting an opinion on immigrants, both legal and illegal. Unfortunately I did not find where they differentiated.

#9, Dobbs quotes "...both illegal and legal..." in regards to the suppression of $200 Billion in wages per year. And it is very difficult to trust any numbers quoted by Lou Dobbs after his recent un-apologetic fiasco with figures.

#10, actually says, ??Hispanics in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-Hispanics, and it seems very clear that if you basically bring in a lot of low-skilled Hispanics with dysfunctional family structure from the Central America, that both they and, in particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the United States. The data is very clear on that. But it can't be discussed.?

I clearly understand the data with the interjected opinion, but he does not say ?Illegal Aliens.? He is quoting something he may be familiar with, regarding overall criminal statistics, but not at all mentioning crimes committed by only illegal immigrants. IMHO, it is purely a generalization of Hispanics.

There is also a quote from a man from the ultra conservative Heritage Foundation, who states his anecdotal opinion, not any factual data. This too cannot be presented as fact.

It is not my intent to disprove the list, but after just a brief glance, some embellishing is apparent. It is obvious that there are some large numbers of actual crimes committed, suppressed wages, and billions spent on welfare to illegal immigrants. I am not disagreeing with the premise. But the ?Reasons? were presented as facts, and that?s just not the complete truth.

To: I Want Troys Hair:

Quote:
?the future is already here . I live in the great state of Mexifornia formerly known as California it's already happened. I am the minority, white, woman and a Steeler Fan!

And English well that is a thing of the past.?


The context, in which you chose to write your post, using the word Mexifornia, is insulting and crudely meant for Mexicans. While many of the illegal immigrants are Mexican, they are also from Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador who all speak Spanish. The latest numbers that I?ve seen show 56 percent of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. Another 22 percent come from other Latin American countries. (22 percent come from Asia, Europe, and Africa) Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived. Please refrain from using it again in that context. Thank you in advance!

You have conveyed your anger quite clearly. I must admit to the difficulty in reading your diatribe about the ??uneducated?? with various spelling, punctuation, capitalization and grammatical errors. Your point is made, but is somewhat clouded.

Regarding the low-skilled agricultural jobs and farm-workers, do any of us know someone who would be willing to perform that job, in those working conditions, for minimum wage? They are literally and figuratively bent-over for up to eight hours per day. And forget holidays! Locally the farm workers were there everyday this year, including the 4th of July, because the owner said that it was not a Mexican holiday.

It is some bullshit when contractors choose to hire illegal immigrants over our own skilled construction journeyman & laborers! The choice definitely hurts our economy through lost wages, taxes paid (through higher wages paid), and out of work Americans! Both my brothers are successful contractors who deal with this scenario often. All workers hired and employed are union.

I too live in the Great State of California and love it! Many streets and cities have Spanish names. Should we change them to English?

I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform! It is non-existent, up to now. Building a fence will not solve this issue. Some real Immigration Reform is required ASAP! There are plenty of reasons, many more than fourteen, to be upset with our inability to set forth a policy with enforcement. Mexico is completely hypocritical with its immigration laws and we need to call them on it! They need to step up to the plate and address this issue pronto!

If anyone is going to use the words ?stupid? or ?god damned? and immediately follow that with Mexicans, that is a racially insensitive remark! You may not be a racist, but those kind of remarks should not be used, and I am personally offended. Please be more empathetic.

Write an email to your Congressman, or in my case Congresswoman Lois Capps. Be heard! I refuse to sit back and complain about this situation without addressing the issue through proper channels.

I sincerely hope that something is done soon, so I can view this board with my fellow Steeler Fans without a worry of what Nationality we are, or what might be said about our differences.

Go Steelers!
:smile::helmet:

Preacher
08-09-2007, 02:50 AM
SteelerStrength....

Excellent Post.

If I may respond to a few things...

1. Real Immigration Reform must be a top priority for our country! And by not expediting the process and resolution, the issue is creating more division, fear, and in some cases hate for our fellow human beings. It is indeed that serious!

You are absolutely correct. I have often said that I want true immigration reform, which means two things. 1. We need to stop ILLEGAL immigration into the country, period. 2. However, we ALSO need to work through the issues that hinder legal immigration. These issues are much bigger however. When the Mexican nation provides guides for people to cross the border, it becomes a violation of national sovereignty. I am very upset at my government (ALL PARTS, ALL PARTIES) for not doing anything about it.

I wonder if some of the frustration that is directed towards "mexicans" is actually misplaced anger at the Mexican government. It doesn't excuse it, but I am just wondering.

2. I am not disagreeing with the premise. But the ?Reasons? were presented as facts, and that?s just not the complete truth.


In a time when "Bush Lied. People Died" is considered Gospel truth, how dare you ask for actual facts! :wink02:

Seriously, While I haven't checked the sources, I think there is a balance between what was said, and what the truth is. CNN is actually a better source about something like that then some other sources, mainly because they tend to lean more towards a political inclination that would support illegal immigration. However, facts are just that, facts. It is philosophical argument that pulls facts together to create a coherent argument, and one of those have not been seen in Washington D.C. in half a century.


3. The context, in which you chose to write your post, using the word Mexifornia, is insulting and crudely meant for Mexicans.

I understand what you are saying. Please see my previous post to see that I understand the percentages. There are, historically, two sides to this coin however. I have been confronted by those who have a Mexican heritage (specifically Mexican), and told that this was their land, stolen by the U.S. (actually, California was its own country for a little while before the U.S. military came. The country of California accepted annexation to the U.S.). When approached by such a person, I just shake my head. For me, the idea of "Mexifornia" is not slam, but instead a romanticized idea of the past

i.e. MEChA (No, not the idiocy about them wanting to take over America, but the actual understanding of Aztlan, as taken from their own website http://www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/faq.html

What is Aztlan? Aztlan is the place where the Aztec people came from. No one knows for sure where Aztlan was, but we seem to have an idea that is is located in the Southwestern US near southern Utah. Aztlan is the one of the early homelands of the Aztec or Mexica people. I realize that most Americans, think that that Columbus discovered America and our Indigenous history before Columbus has no value and does not matter. Well that may be true for most Americans but not for most Chicanos. We cherish our Indigenous heritage and indigenous history. Indigenous Americans are not different below the US border. The border between the US and Mexico did not exist in the past. Indigenous languages and people are related North and South of the border by language and customs. Many Chicanos think this border is meaningless when it comes to our heritage. We belong to this land it is the land of our people. This may be hard to understand but think of it like this. Could you really tell an African that he does not belong in Africa? That he is a foreigner in Africa? Our ancestors were in America thousands of years before Columbus came.

The problem with this understanding, is that the Europeans first landed in central America, and intermarried with them. It is as correct for a Latino to claim Southern European ancestory as it is "Native American" ancestory. Furthermore, Mexican expansion ended by California claiming independence, and then the further agreements which stopped the war. it was the ancestors of the same people who now claim California was stolen that agreed to the line drawn in the sand.

In short, it is my belief that a person in a country should show respect for the dominant culture of that country. For me, mexifornia is a quick of of expressing this sentiment.

However, for me, ni*ger still means fearful and has nothing to do with race, so I am probably wrong!

4. I too live in the Great State of California and love it! Many streets and cities have Spanish names. Should we change them to English? No. However, that is not the same as the expectation that one can converse in the dominant language of the country. In many ways, we have brought this on ourselves by not making English the official language. Please let it be known, If I EVER moved to another country, It will be my responsibility to learn the language of the nation I move to. However, this in no way devalues ANY person from any race. In my church, any time we do something with our Spanish congregation, I make every attempt to make sure that things are interpreted.

5. I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform! It is non-existent, up to now. Building a fence will not solve this issue. Some real Immigration Reform is required ASAP! There are plenty of reasons, many more than fourteen, to be upset with our inability to set forth a policy with enforcement. Mexico is completely hypocritical with its immigration laws and we need to call them on it! They need to step up to the plate and address this issue pronto!


I do believe a fence is part of the answer. The harder it is for people to illegally enter the nation, the fewer the people that will illegally enter. However, that is only PART of the over-all answer. You are also dead right on Mexican enforcement and immigration law.


If anyone is going to use the words ?stupid? or ?god damned? and immediately follow that with Mexicans, that is a racially insensitive remark! You may not be a racist, but those kind of remarks should not be used, and I am personally offended. Please be more empathetic.

I agree with your entire statement, but thank you for seeing the difference between a statement, and the person as a whole.

____________________________________

Please understand, when I say deport illegal aliens, I personally could care less what race or religion they are. If they are Baptist from England, and here illegally, they need to go home. Now. Period. If they are Muslim, and here from Mexico legally, welcome to the United States. Period. End of Story.

Preacher
08-09-2007, 02:56 AM
I sincerely hope that something is done soon, so I can view this board with my fellow Steeler Fans without a worry of what Nationality we are, or what might be said about our differences.

Go Steelers!
:smile::helmet:


Honestly, I could care less what nationality you are!! Your part of the Steeler nation... and we love all our brothers and sisters.... but we accept NO immigration, legal OR illegal, from Bengaldom!

SCSTILLER
08-09-2007, 07:26 AM
Antoher thing that ticks me off is the local authorities in the United States (not all places, don't get me wrong). Where I live you will see 50-100 illegals outside the gas station waiting on work, then see a cop pull up, go inside to grab a snack or whatever, then leave. And the illegals feel unthreatened by him/her (I am not by no means bashing our brave police officers). But when they aren't even afraid to get caught, our INS system is not doing its job.

Godfather
08-09-2007, 07:32 AM
what I find funny is Bush want to send our national guard over to Iraq to secure their borders. He can't secure our borders and he wants to secure theirs this country does everything bass ackwards.

Yep. He also spent hundreds ofmillions rebuilding their wetlands but he's been a major obstacle to rebuilding Louisiana's wetlands--which protect a major portion of our domestic oil production.

Hammer67
08-09-2007, 11:03 AM
I am a Mexican-American who is also upset at our fiasco called Immigration Reform!

You share dual citizenship? I always hated this type of self descriptions. African-American, Italian-American, etc. I always found it devisive...

I am an American. Period. I have Scots-Irish and German heritage but I am solely an American as I do not have dual citizenship anywhere else.

:wink02:

Steelerstrength
08-09-2007, 11:38 AM
You share dual citizenship? I always hated this type of self descriptions. African-American, Italian-American, etc. I always found it devisive...

I am an American. Period. I have Scots-Irish and German heritage but I am solely an American as I do not have dual citizenship anywhere else.

:wink02:

For you, Hammer, I am an American of Mexican descent. Purely semantics, but I am proud either way. Actually, on my mothers side, I am 7th generation Californian. :smile:

fansince'76
08-09-2007, 11:45 AM
I think the first step in implementing a common-sense solution that will actually have a chance to work is to stop placing all the blame on the illegals and shifting it to where it belongs - unscrupulous employers on this side of the border that exploit them. If those jobs weren't there, does anyone really think the illegal immigration problem would be nearly as bad as it is now?

Steelerstrength
08-09-2007, 12:17 PM
Hey Preach, thanks for the kind response! I was happy to see a favorable response from my fellow Steelers fans.

Regarding the use of the word "Mexifornia", I completely stand by my statement,"Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived." Providing background to how the word is perceived here in California, as a consequence to how it is intended and used, should further provide some understanding.

Locally here in Santa Barbara, a recently published letter, dating back to when Mexico sold California to the US, from Pablo De La Guerra, then a wealthy Mexican rancher. Here are some exerpts that may interest you:

The following is an excerpt from Josh Gottheimer?s book, Ripples of Hope: Great American Civil Rights Speeches.

The Hispanic-American civil rights struggle is rooted, in part, in the Mexican-American War and the resulting Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848). The treaty was negotiated by the United States ostensibly to prevent American settlers moving west from seizing land that belonged to Mexicans before the war. With the gold rush in full throttle, however, the treaty was quickly abandoned, as pioneers seized land indiscriminately and without care for Mexican Americans.

In 1851, in direct violation of the treaty, Congress passed the Land Law, requiring all Latinos living in the ?new? territories to provide proof of their land grants, a near impossibility considering the lack of documentation. In the meantime, while the courts discerned true ownership, the law allowed Anglo Americans to seize and develop the disputed land. This mass confiscation later served as the root of the Chicano liberation movement and propelled the separatist ideas advanced by leaders like Reies L?pez Tijerina. In the 19th century, however, most Mexican Americans struggled in virtual silence to maintain their land holdings.

Pablo de la Guerra, a prominent Mexican American, was a lone voice against this injustice. One of the few Mexican Americans in the California State Assembly and Senate during the 1850s, he was embraced by many Mexican Americans and whites as an ally and trustworthy citizen. Speaking passionately, De la Guerra succeeded in tabling one land seizure bill after another. A cascade of political pressure ultimately overwhelmed his cause, as more white settlers and miners moved to California and demanded to ?reclaim? the land. After De la Guerra died, the Latino cause largely would be put on hold for another century.

On Seizing Land from Native Californians

I  hope the Senate will allow me to offer a few remarks upon the merits of the bill, and to state why, upon the principles of reason and justice I consider that the bill should be indefinitely postponed. ?

Well, sir, the war took place, and we, after doing our duty as citizens of Mexico, were sold like sheep???abandoned by our nation, and as it were, awoke from a dream, strangers on the very soil on which we were native and to the manor born. We passed from the hands of Mexico to that of the United States, but we had the consolation of believing that the United States, as a nation, was more liberal than our own. We had the greatest respect for an American. Every American who came to our country was held in higher estimation than even one of our countrymen. And I call upon every American who visited us to bear testimony to this fact. And after being abandoned by our own country and annexed to the United States, we thought that we belonged to a nation the most civilized, the most humane?a nation that was the foremost in planting the banner of liberty on every portion of its dominions?a nation that was the most careful in protecting the just rights of its citizens. Well, sir, in 1849, a great many emigrated to California, not to settle upon the land or to cultivate the soil, but to work in the mines and go home; and from ?49 to ?52 they had no other object, but many finding that it was hard work in the mines, and being told that the land in the State had not been separated from the public domain, had no boundaries and being probably further misled by lawyers, or interested persons, who stated that the land in this condition would never be confirmed to the owners by the Supreme Court of the United States, came and settled upon our lands. And I ask, are we to suffer for that?

I believe that I speak advisedly, when I say that three-fourths of the settlers upon the lands, have been aware that someone had a prior claim; they knew it by common report, that such a one and such a one had a claim upon the land; but they thought that even if it was confirmed to the owners, that the use of the land until the confirmation, would be worth more than the improvements that they would make. Perhaps one-fourth went upon the land in good faith. I do not know that such was the case, but I am willing to grant it; but now, when they find that it is probable that the Supreme Court of the United States will confirm these grants, and after deriving all the benefits for the use of the same, they apply to the Legislature, in order that a State Law may be set up as a bar against the action of the Court of the United States.

I say, sir, that already we have suffered deeply; our property has been sacrificed. The Bay of San Francisco alone, at one time, had more cattle than can now be found in the counties of Santa Clara, Monterey, Santa Cruz, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara. Horses, at that time could be counted by the thousands; and I believe that many settlers have settled upon lands for the purposes of stealing the cattle and sending them to the San Francisco market for sale.

Now, sir, of the 113 members in this Legislature, I am the only native of this state; and the native population expect from me, and through me, that in my place in this Legislative Hall, that I shall call the attention of this body to the facts I have now stated, and to tell you that badly treated as they have been in every respect, they look around them and find no other aid except in the mercy of Heaven, and the justice of this Legislature; and now, in their name, I call upon you, Senators, to consider that if they are deprived of what is left to them, they have no other place to go to. They have been rejected by the Mexicans; they know no other country but California, and by depriving them of their rights, they will be compelled to be beggars in the streets; and in order to prevent this terrible calamity from overtaking them, they, through me, throw themselves upon your mercy and clemency; and they ask and expect from you protection that will justify before the eyes of the world the belief in justice of the American people. If the American settlers are deprived of what they have expended for their improvements, they can go home and meet the aid and sympathies of their friends and countrymen; but the Californian, what prospect has he before him, or where shall he go?

I wish to make one remark about the expression, ?settled in good faith,? and I am done. Sir, if this bill has effect, it will be from the countries of Santa Clara upward, because in the south we have no settlers; but in those counties I am now referring to, the settlers greatly outnumber the land claimants, and it is useless to say that juries are incorruptible. We know that such is not the case from our daily experience. And these juries will be formed by whom? Sir, they will consist of those very settlers. The Sheriff will summon such a jury as will suit their views. I have seen a good deal of juries in California. I have seen where proof, clear as noon day, would not alter the decision of a jury from their preconceived opinions.

And I will affirm that I believe that out of 100 cases tried between the settlers and the land owners, that 99 will be given in favor of the settler.

And, sir, to conclude these remarks, permit me to assure you, upon my honor as a gentleman, that everything I have stated is true and as clear as conviction itself. I know that I am in the Senate chamber of California, where full liberty of speech is allowed, but if I were speaking to a barbarous people, I should still advocate the same sentiments, and even if I were killed for so doing, I should at least have the satisfaction of dying in a just cause, and should receive the reward from Him who has said, ?Blessed are those who are persecuted, for righteousness sake, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.? ?Pablo de la Guerra, April 1855

__________________________________________________ __________________

Personally, the issue is done. I believe in moving forward, together, for a common good. I thought this might be of interest to you.

Thanks for reading!

BettisFan
08-09-2007, 01:00 PM
Hey Preach, thanks for the kind response! I was happy to see a favorable response from my fellow Steelers fans.

Regarding the use of the word "Mexifornia", I completely stand by my statement,"Many jokes have been distributed using that word in a derogatory manner, with illustrations. I point this out only to let you know, in that context, how that word is perceived." Providing background to how the word is perceived here in California, as a consequence to how it is intended and used, should further provide some understanding.

Locally here in Santa Barbara, a recently published letter, dating back to when Mexico sold California to the US, from Pablo De La Guerra, then a wealthy Mexican rancher. Here are some exerpts that may interest you:

The following is an excerpt from Josh Gottheimer?s book, Ripples of Hope: Great American Civil Rights Speeches.

The Hispanic-American civil rights struggle is rooted, in part, in the Mexican-American War and the resulting Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848). The treaty was negotiated by the United States ostensibly to prevent American settlers moving west from seizing land that belonged to Mexicans before the war. With the gold rush in full throttle, however, the treaty was quickly abandoned, as pioneers seized land indiscriminately and without care for Mexican Americans.

In 1851, in direct violation of the treaty, Congress passed the Land Law, requiring all Latinos living in the ?new? territories to provide proof of their land grants, a near impossibility considering the lack of documentation. In the meantime, while the courts discerned true ownership, the law allowed Anglo Americans to seize and develop the disputed land. This mass confiscation later served as the root of the Chicano liberation movement and propelled the separatist ideas advanced by leaders like Reies L?pez Tijerina. In the 19th century, however, most Mexican Americans struggled in virtual silence to maintain their land holdings.

Pablo de la Guerra, a prominent Mexican American, was a lone voice against this injustice. One of the few Mexican Americans in the California State Assembly and Senate during the 1850s, he was embraced by many Mexican Americans and whites as an ally and trustworthy citizen. Speaking passionately, De la Guerra succeeded in tabling one land seizure bill after another. A cascade of political pressure ultimately overwhelmed his cause, as more white settlers and miners moved to California and demanded to ?reclaim? the land. After De la Guerra died, the Latino cause largely would be put on hold for another century.

On Seizing Land from Native Californians

I  hope the Senate will allow me to offer a few remarks upon the merits of the bill, and to state why, upon the principles of reason and justice I consider that the bill should be indefinitely postponed. ?

Well, sir, the war took place, and we, after doing our duty as citizens of Mexico, were sold like sheep???abandoned by our nation, and as it were, awoke from a dream, strangers on the very soil on which we were native and to the manor born. We passed from the hands of Mexico to that of the United States, but we had the consolation of believing that the United States, as a nation, was more liberal than our own. We had the greatest respect for an American. Every American who came to our country was held in higher estimation than even one of our countrymen. And I call upon every American who visited us to bear testimony to this fact. And after being abandoned by our own country and annexed to the United States, we thought that we belonged to a nation the most civilized, the most humane?a nation that was the foremost in planting the banner of liberty on every portion of its dominions?a nation that was the most careful in protecting the just rights of its citizens. Well, sir, in 1849, a great many emigrated to California, not to settle upon the land or to cultivate the soil, but to work in the mines and go home; and from ?49 to ?52 they had no other object, but many finding that it was hard work in the mines, and being told that the land in the State had not been separated from the public domain, had no boundaries and being probably further misled by lawyers, or interested persons, who stated that the land in this condition would never be confirmed to the owners by the Supreme Court of the United States, came and settled upon our lands. And I ask, are we to suffer for that?

I believe that I speak advisedly, when I say that three-fourths of the settlers upon the lands, have been aware that someone had a prior claim; they knew it by common report, that such a one and such a one had a claim upon the land; but they thought that even if it was confirmed to the owners, that the use of the land until the confirmation, would be worth more than the improvements that they would make. Perhaps one-fourth went upon the land in good faith. I do not know that such was the case, but I am willing to grant it; but now, when they find that it is probable that the Supreme Court of the United States will confirm these grants, and after deriving all the benefits for the use of the same, they apply to the Legislature, in order that a State Law may be set up as a bar against the action of the Court of the United States.

I say, sir, that already we have suffered deeply; our property has been sacrificed. The Bay of San Francisco alone, at one time, had more cattle than can now be found in the counties of Santa Clara, Monterey, Santa Cruz, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara. Horses, at that time could be counted by the thousands; and I believe that many settlers have settled upon lands for the purposes of stealing the cattle and sending them to the San Francisco market for sale.

Now, sir, of the 113 members in this Legislature, I am the only native of this state; and the native population expect from me, and through me, that in my place in this Legislative Hall, that I shall call the attention of this body to the facts I have now stated, and to tell you that badly treated as they have been in every respect, they look around them and find no other aid except in the mercy of Heaven, and the justice of this Legislature; and now, in their name, I call upon you, Senators, to consider that if they are deprived of what is left to them, they have no other place to go to. They have been rejected by the Mexicans; they know no other country but California, and by depriving them of their rights, they will be compelled to be beggars in the streets; and in order to prevent this terrible calamity from overtaking them, they, through me, throw themselves upon your mercy and clemency; and they ask and expect from you protection that will justify before the eyes of the world the belief in justice of the American people. If the American settlers are deprived of what they have expended for their improvements, they can go home and meet the aid and sympathies of their friends and countrymen; but the Californian, what prospect has he before him, or where shall he go?

I wish to make one remark about the expression, ?settled in good faith,? and I am done. Sir, if this bill has effect, it will be from the countries of Santa Clara upward, because in the south we have no settlers; but in those counties I am now referring to, the settlers greatly outnumber the land claimants, and it is useless to say that juries are incorruptible. We know that such is not the case from our daily experience. And these juries will be formed by whom? Sir, they will consist of those very settlers. The Sheriff will summon such a jury as will suit their views. I have seen a good deal of juries in California. I have seen where proof, clear as noon day, would not alter the decision of a jury from their preconceived opinions.

And I will affirm that I believe that out of 100 cases tried between the settlers and the land owners, that 99 will be given in favor of the settler.

And, sir, to conclude these remarks, permit me to assure you, upon my honor as a gentleman, that everything I have stated is true and as clear as conviction itself. I know that I am in the Senate chamber of California, where full liberty of speech is allowed, but if I were speaking to a barbarous people, I should still advocate the same sentiments, and even if I were killed for so doing, I should at least have the satisfaction of dying in a just cause, and should receive the reward from Him who has said, ?Blessed are those who are persecuted, for righteousness sake, for of such is the kingdom of heaven.? ?Pablo de la Guerra, April 1855

__________________________________________________ __________________

Personally, the issue is done. I believe in moving forward, together, for a common good. I thought this might be of interest to you.

Thanks for reading!


wowowoowowow good read my man!

Hammer67
08-09-2007, 01:16 PM
For you, Hammer, I am an American of Mexican descent. Purely semantics, but I am proud either way. Actually, on my mothers side, I am 7th generation Californian. :smile:

:thumbsup: LOL! Thanks! It means a lot!

:sofunny:

Hammer67
08-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Good reading on this topic, gals and gents. Very informative. I know there are many personal feelings involved. But, I think I would like to see a more secure border. And, a fair way to enter the country. The flow of illegals must end. But, that doesn't mean we should turn our backs on these people.

While I respect their yearning to make a living. I have to stand by the folks already here. We have unemployment, welfare and poverty already, without factoring illegal immigrants. We need to focus on what's best for them and for the US taxpayers.

I wish people from these central and south American countries would work within the confines of their own countries and find out why they need to flee. Mexico should be thriving on it's own accord.

I think American companies should be held accountable for paying undocumented labor.

Steelerstrength
08-09-2007, 02:22 PM
Good reading on this topic, gals and gents. Very informative. I know there are many personal feelings involved. But, I think I would like to see a more secure border. And, a fair way to enter the country. The flow of illegals must end. But, that doesn't mean we should turn our backs on these people.

While I respect their yearning to make a living. I have to stand by the folks already here. We have unemployment, welfare and poverty already, without factoring illegal immigrants. We need to focus on what's best for them and for the US taxpayers.

I wish people from these central and south American countries would work within the confines of their own countries and find out why they need to flee. Mexico should be thriving on it's own accord.

I think American companies should be held accountable for paying undocumented labor.


You nailed it Hammer! Nuff said!

Oh, and, welcome back ParkerFan!

Dynasty
08-09-2007, 02:32 PM
My basic opinion is this: If you're a mexican and here legally, I applaud you for taking the necesary steps to get here LEGALLY. If you're here by hoppin' the border, get the hell out of my country and don't come back unless you're going to do it legally.

So basically, I'm not using the term Mexicans as a catch-all, but only for people from Mexico that are here illegally and have no right to call themselves Americans.

zoneblitz43
08-09-2007, 03:41 PM
steps to combat illegal immigration need to be taken. I don't just blame the illegals, I blame the businesses that hire them. INS needs to weed out the illegals, deport them, and penalize the hell out of these businesses, how about a $20,000 fine per illegal working there? I'd say start holding businesses who hire illegals, avoid taxes and other illegal practices accountable, shut them down, make the owners suffer. start yanking their assets. make it hard if not impossible for illegal immigrants to get a job here because no one will hire them out of fear of being penilized. enable people who can come to the U.S. legally, work legally, pay taxes, and respect our laws to become citizens.

Preacher
08-09-2007, 03:58 PM
Steelerstrength...

I don't care that your heritage is from mexico...

Its the part that is from california that bothers me... the californians here are off thier rocker!!

:sofunny::sofunny::sofunny::sofunny:

Steelerstrength
08-09-2007, 04:44 PM
Steelerstrength...

I don't care that your heritage is from mexico...

Its the part that is from california that bothers me... the californians here are off thier rocker!!

:sofunny::sofunny::sofunny::sofunny:

Hey Preacher Man, the Californian in me goes back hundreds of years. Two streets in downtown SB are named after my family, I'll have you know. :yep::horse:

But I have to agree with you about the melting pot we have here in Cali! Any kind of crazy can be found here. I resemble that statement!:bouncy: Matter of fact, when I'm in the weight room, all my friends say I'm F'ing crazy! :banging:


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hammer67
08-09-2007, 05:00 PM
Ah yes, California...the land of "fruits" and "nuts"!!!

revefsreleets
08-09-2007, 05:18 PM
Bush & Rove know what happened to the GOP in California after former GOP Governor Pete Wilson ran hard against immigrants in the mid-90s. Legal Hispanic/American citizen voters are the fastest growing demographic group in the country. Both the Dems and GOP are terrified of doing anything on immigration that is regarded as "Hispanic bashing" and will tilt the three largest states of the 21st century (California/Florida//Texas), each of which have large Hispanic populations, into the column of the opposing party.

Hate to break it to you but an illegal making less than $7.50 an hour is not benefiting the most from low wage rates - instead, it is companies that exploit the surplus value of labor that benefit the most from paying lower wages to increase profits.

And as far as "hate for the man" my views on Bush are not driven by personal animosity against him, seeing as I voted for him in 2000 - it is many of his policies (Iraq/deficit spending/lack of accountability for the executive branch) that I despise. As for Bush not vetoing anything from Congress, he had a GOP Congress for the first six years of his Administration.

In closing, before you accuse someone else of getting "caught up in semantics" I would appreciate some guidance as to what exactly you mean when you refer to "manipulative foreigners" and a "victory for 'them'"

A) If the Mexicans jumping the border aren't benefiting by flocking here, then, um, why are they flocking here?
B) My argument is two pronged. I'm just as angry at immigrants who come here and manipulate our tax code to their advantage and our disadvantage.
C) "Victory for them"? If you think there is some vast difference between, say, Hillary Clinton and W, you've been successfully hoodwinked. They are both working from the same agenda that big business and a few other power brokers set for them. Which is exactly why it's so pointless to bash one particular cog in a giant wheel of deception.

Hammer67
08-09-2007, 07:55 PM
A) If the Mexicans jumping the border aren't benefiting by flocking here, then, um, why are they flocking here?
B) My argument is two pronged. I'm just as angry at immigrants who come here and manipulate our tax code to their advantage and our disadvantage.
C) "Victory for them"? If you think there is some vast difference between, say, Hillary Clinton and W, you've been successfully hoodwinked. They are both working from the same agenda that big business and a few other power brokers set for them. Which is exactly why it's so pointless to bash one particular cog in a giant wheel of deception.

Well said.

On the note of immigration...here in Detroit, we have a large Middle Eastern population. They come mostly legally with visa's and work permits. But, some take FULL advantage of tax breaks and incentives. You have one who will come over, open up a liquor store (all liquor store owners here are Arab) and work for the number of months they are allowed, sending all money back home. Once their work visa expires, a family member comes over and works the same store. They avoid taxes, get incentive loans and send all their money out of the country. Pisses people off as if you are a native resident, getting the same enterprise up and running is MUCH more expensive.

revefsreleets
08-09-2007, 08:58 PM
Well said.

On the note of immigration...here in Detroit, we have a large Middle Eastern population. They come mostly legally with visa's and work permits. But, some take FULL advantage of tax breaks and incentives. You have one who will come over, open up a liquor store (all liquor store owners here are Arab) and work for the number of months they are allowed, sending all money back home. Once their work visa expires, a family member comes over and works the same store. They avoid taxes, get incentive loans and send all their money out of the country. Pisses people off as if you are a native resident, getting the same enterprise up and running is MUCH more expensive.

Yes, well, that's another form of the manipulation. And we not only allow that, we encourage it! I understand where Dan is coming from, but the fact is that ALL our immigration laws are messed up, and it doesn't matter who gets elected president or senator, it's not going to change.

I saw a poignant political cartoon the other day. It showed one bin Laden look-a-like saying to another "We must destroy America's Infrastructure before they do it themselves". Sad and disturbing and probably true.

Dynasty
08-09-2007, 10:10 PM
WASHINGTON _ The Bush administration plans to step up immigration enforcement by raising fines on employers who hire undocumented workers, overhauling temporary worker programs and speeding up deployment of border agents, according to a summary of the plans.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez planned to announce broad immigration changes at a news conference Friday.

Some of the initiatives are similar to proposals contained in recent immigration legislation, although they are not nearly as sweeping as the bill that failed to pass the Senate. Other measures are already under way.

An outline of the announcement, obtained by The Associated Press from a congressional aide, said the administration plans to expand the list of international gangs whose members are automatically denied admission to the U.S., reduce processing times for immigrant background checks and install by the end of the year an exit system so the departure of foreigners from the country can be recorded at airports and seaports.

In addition, employers will face possible criminal sanctions if they don't fire employees unable to clear up problems with their Social Security numbers.

Also, the Homeland Security Department will ask states to voluntarily share their driver's license photos and records with the agency for use in an employment verification system. The sharing is meant to help employers detect fraudulent licenses, according to the summary.

A spokesman for the Homeland Security Department declined to comment because the announcement had not been made. The Commerce Department press office also declined comment.

Chertoff alluded to the new enforcement tactics in a speech in Boston on Wednesday, calling to it "tool sharpening."

"We shouldn't have a patchwork of laws. We should be doing a comprehensive federal solution, but we haven't got that thing done," Chertoff said. "What I can tell you is we will certainly use every enforcement tool that we have, and every resource that we have available, to tackle the problem."

President Bush suffered a major political defeat when Senate immigration legislation failed to pass this year.

The legislation was opposed by many conservatives who complained that Americans don't trust the government to start new immigration programs because existing immigration laws are not being enforced.

The Senate bill would have allowed millions of illegal immigrants to obtain legal status and eventually apply for legal residency. It also would have created a guest worker program and stepped up border security.

Some members have kept up efforts to tighten the border. Last month, the Senate added $3 billion to a Homeland Security bill to be used for U.S.-Mexico border security.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-10-2007, 12:48 AM
:cheers:

http://americancomedynetwork.com/animation.html?bit_id=24620

Johnny Tex and the Texans.

http://www.texasreddirtmusic.com/slthm.html

Godfather
08-10-2007, 08:16 AM
steps to combat illegal immigration need to be taken. I don't just blame the illegals, I blame the businesses that hire them. INS needs to weed out the illegals, deport them, and penalize the hell out of these businesses, how about a $20,000 fine per illegal working there? I'd say start holding businesses who hire illegals, avoid taxes and other illegal practices accountable, shut them down, make the owners suffer. start yanking their assets. make it hard if not impossible for illegal immigrants to get a job here because no one will hire them out of fear of being penilized. enable people who can come to the U.S. legally, work legally, pay taxes, and respect our laws to become citizens.

Another idea I heard: make "contract labor" (where they typically hide illegal immigrants on the books) non-deductible unless the company can document that the workers were Americans or legal aliens. That makes it a little more expensive to hire illegal immigrants. Even better, it makes accounting fraud an issue, and businesses will take that a lot more seriously than immigration laws.

Steelerstrength
08-10-2007, 12:44 PM
:cheers:

http://americancomedynetwork.com/animation.html?bit_id=24620

Johnny Tex and the Texans.

http://www.texasreddirtmusic.com/slthm.html

My inquisitive nature has gotten the best of me. I would really appreciate an explanation of your intent? What exactly do you wish to achieve by posting this? And finally, what are your true thought's about those who are here legally, and how do you determine if they are not, in your community? Thanks in advance!

Personally, I feel your post was not appropriate for this thread. Serious dialog with detailed data, statistics and opinion have been the proven overtone, with minor exception. As a society we attend various comedic events with the full expectation and knowledge of the presented content. This thread just hasn't been one of those. :smile:

Hammer67
08-10-2007, 02:54 PM
My inquisitive nature has gotten the best of me. I would really appreciate an explanation of your intent? What exactly do you wish to achieve by posting this? And finally, what are your true thought's about those who are here legally, and how do you determine if they are not, in your community? Thanks in advance!

Personally, I feel your post was not appropriate for this thread. Serious dialog with detailed data, statistics and opinion have been the proven overtone, with minor exception. As a society we attend various comedic events with the full expectation and knowledge of the presented content. This thread just hasn't been one of those. :smile:

I don't know...I found it quite humorous! :wink02:

Keeps things light as some people take themselves way to seriously. A problem around the world, so I have found.

Steelerstrength
08-10-2007, 05:47 PM
I don't know...I found it quite humorous! :wink02:

Keeps things light as some people take themselves way to seriously. A problem around the world, so I have found.

Keeping things light depends on the person who is speaking, and those who are listening. I posed the questions based upon that persons history within this thread. First I addressed the use of "Mexifornia", then this. An obvious pattern without anything leading us to believe that the intent is "keeping things light". Based on that history within this thread, I didn't find it funny at all, but asked for clarification, which to this point I have not received. And, why would someone have that on their computer?

Hammer, I'm all for having a damn good time & gettin' crazy! But if I'm in a crowd of people of whom I don't know very well, or know at all, and those are the only words coming out of one specific person, I gotta call them on it! I'm guessing you would too. I've gotta have some rapport to understand motive & intent. If I'm sure evrything is cool, then let's have a good time. :wink02: :thumbsup:

Hammer67
08-10-2007, 06:12 PM
Keeping things light depends on the person who is speaking, and those who are listening. I posed the questions based upon that persons history within this thread. First I addressed the use of "Mexifornia", then this. An obvious pattern without anything leading us to believe that the intent is "keeping things light". Based on that history within this thread, I didn't find it funny at all, but asked for clarification, which to this point I have not received. And, why would someone have that on their computer?

Hammer, I'm all for having a damn good time & gettin' crazy! But if I'm in a crowd of people of whom I don't know very well, or know at all, and those are the only words coming out of one specific person, I gotta call them on it! I'm guessing you would too. I've gotta have some rapport to understand motive & intent. If I'm sure evrything is cool, then let's have a good time. :wink02: :thumbsup:

I dunno, I have pretty broad sense of humor. Politically incorrect or not. I try to fight the PCness our society is warping to. I don't get offended easily. At least not by satire. IF it was about Irish potato farmers and was funny, I would laugh.

BlacknGold76
08-11-2007, 09:40 AM
what's the old saying ?...." if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem ".....old GW has had , or will have, 8 years to be part a solution the american people have been screamin for. your right,the system is broke....but isn't that why we have periodic elections? don't we vote people in to FIX the problem ? if you hire someone to fix your car, do you not hold them accountable when it still runs like crap?


Sorry, but I am feeling slightly disillusioned by the fact that every politician who has ever offered to fix a problem usually ends up not fixing it nor making it worse for the rest of us. The politicians either end up attaching more bureacratic red tape or pork barrel spending to legislation that will supposedly fix the problem and is supposed to make us all feel good about our governments handling of the problem. Usually, after its all said and done it feels like we've been left holding the bag or gotten the short end of the stick. I believe that it all has to do with pandoring to a certain constituency(s) such as the Democrats trying to get the Hispanic vote to remain in power, which ends up meaning that we as Americans, who are here legally have once again been shoved to the end of the line, and have been told how it is good to swallow this bitter pill (immigration reform/a guest worker program or amnesty) in the hopes that things will get better. My only question is why in the world would we have to reform our immigration policies when we don't even enforce the laws that are already on the books.

As far as accountability goes, which i believe that we should hold our elected officials feet to the fire, why then do these same doofus's manage to get reelected year after year after year.
Are we as Americans that dumb ,or have we just become complacent because there is not a better candidate to vote for?

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-11-2007, 12:00 PM
what are your true thought's about those who are here legally, and how do you determine if they are not, in your community? Thanks in advance :

I have no problem with anyone that is here legally. That's is not the issue the issue is he who is here illegally. After what we saw about 6 weeks when the Senate was getting ready to vote on "comprehensive immigration" bill the American people spoke out loud and clear as to what their thought were on that bogus bill. If your here legally hey that's great but if your here illegally and you are protesting in OUR streets wanting YOUR rights then I absolutely have a problem with it. I'm tired of being called a bigot, racist and divisive because I want the idiot in the White House to enforce our immigration laws. Someone ought tell Bush it's not the presidents job to choose which laws he will enforce that's what Kings do and in America we don't have Kings we have Presidents.

With that said the reason why today's American are not willing to accept this new kind of immigrant any longer goes back to the 1900's when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to the United States, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in New York and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new American households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.

They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture. The illegals of today are not willing to assimilate. They are not willing to put down their countries flag and embrace the American Flag this was evident in the marches in Los Angeles they had to be TOLD that if they wanted to be taken serious they should be carrying the American flag not the Mexican flag.

Nothing was handed to those immigrants. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them no ACLU. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity. Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. Our father fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany , Italy , France and Japan .. None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any though t about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan . They were defending the United States of America as one people. When we liberated France , no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.

And here we are in 2007 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900's deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags.

And no I am unable to determine who is in my community is legal or illegal but all I need to do is look to my local Home Depot and that question is answered for me.

Hammer67
08-11-2007, 10:23 PM
Fantastic points. My sentiments exactly. Thank you for taking the time to articulate my thoughts!!!