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Livinginthe past
09-26-2005, 07:55 AM
Steeler fans,

Im sure most of you are aware of the CHFF (Cold Hard Football Facts) website - here is a link which tries to explain why Pittsburgh struggle in the Cowher era in the 'big games'.

Its basically what I alluded to in another post, but actually backed up with some facts and stats.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=449&Category=1

Cheers

NM

ironcitychef
09-26-2005, 12:11 PM
I may be biased, but the logic in this article is false. To say that we are not allowed to be a football playoff team cause we can't be the 11-5 teams(Denver and New England I think mostly) is absurd. Not many teams did it either. Also, those teams are defined by a core of a steady roster, same QB, same RB, same D. Look at our teams, different QBs, different RBs, different CBS/LBS. Still getting to the playoffs. No rebuilding for us. It did show we are undefeated in the playoffs against 10-6/9-7 teams though...one game makes us lower quality wins? I'll disagree with this...

As for quality wins, we can't do anything about our division. All teams will say this. Half the schedule is what it is. You can't change it. But the other half is always constant. If we finish first in our division(10 times) then we play the 1st place teams in the other divisions. Hence the KC,PATS,DEN,TEN,IND, etc. Throw in GB, TB, and PHI, I really don't see how playing the schedule the NFL gives us can be held against us. I disagree here as well.

The way I want to see this done is actually we always run to set up more running and play action. When we should mix it up and playaction/pass to set up the run against teams that want to put 7,8,9 on the line or box early.

Suitanim
10-03-2005, 06:35 PM
I almost forgot about this...I've been thinking about this since at least 1997 when Kordell threw the game away.

This analysis is all nice and stuff, and looks factual and whatnot, and, if you are a Cowher hater, easy to jump on board with...here's the dissenting view though.

I submit just this; Quarterbacks.

That's all. QB's. QB's lost most of, if not all of, these games that all these brainiacs are trying to dissect and analyze in the past tense. The one variable a HC has the least control over is the QB. Let's revisit all these scenarios' in which we have been deemed losers because of Cowher...

1994 AFC title game ? In a 17-13 loss to San Diego, Pittsburgh?s leading ballcarrier, Barry Foster, picked up just 47 yards on 20 carries. With his top-ranked rushing attack stifled, O?Donnell was forced to pass 54 times. The Pittsburgh offense found its way into the end zone just once and lost, 17-13.

Classic defensive struggle...may I remind all that we were on the 3 yard line at the end of game and Barry Foster had an O'Donnell pass batted away.

1995 Super Bowl ? In a 27-17 loss to Dallas, Pittsburgh?s top two ballcarriers, Erric Pegram and Bam Morris, were held to just 88 yards on 25 carries. With his twelfth-ranked rushing attack stifled, O?Donnell famously tossed two INTs to wide open defensive back Larry Brown, who set up easy touchdowns for the Dallas offense while earning MVP honors in the process.

In fact, after the Steelers settled down, this was a very even game, due to a superlative defensive effort by the Steelers. Interesting how the author fails to mention that O'Donnell only had (I believe) 6 other INT's coming into this game...O'Donnell played his worst game as a Steelers in his biggest game.., how is that Cowher's fault?

1996 divisional playoffs ? In a 28-3 loss to New England, Pittsburgh?s leading ballcarrier, Jerome Bettis, was held to 43 yards on 13 carries. With their second-ranked rushing attack stifled, quarterbacks Tomczak and Stewart combined for a spectacularly unproductive 16 of 39 for 110 yards with two INTs.

Stewart? Tomczak? And this guy lays the blame on others? Please...

1997 AFC title game ? In a 24-21 loss to Denver, Pittsburgh's leading ballcarrier, Bettis, gave the Steelers a potentially winning performance with 105 yards on 23 carries. But against a champion-caliber defense, Stewart completed just 18 of 36 passes for 201 yards with 1 TD and 3 INTs.

Stewart 3 INT's...I'm pretty sure 2 of them were in the endzone while we were in the redzone...

2001 AFC title game ? In a 24-17 loss to New England, Pittsburgh?s leading rusher, Bettis, was held to a humiliating 8 yards on 9 carries. With his top-ranked rushing attack stifled, Stewart completed just 24 of 42 passes for 255 yards with 0 TDs and 3 INTs, including one each on Pittsburgh?s final two desperation drives.

See a pattern here? Subpar QB's at the helm of superior teams?

2004 AFC title game ? In a 41-27 loss to New England, Pittsburgh?s leading rusher, Bettis was held to 64 yards on 17 carries. With his second-ranked rushing attack stifled, Roethlisberger had his worst game of his previously unbeaten rookie season. He completed 14 of 24 passes for 226 yards and 2 TDs, but tossed three INTs, including one that was returned nearly 100 yards by Rodney Harrison for a back-breaking TD at the end of the first half.


This is where the pattern begins to break...this is the 1st time the Steelers invest in a QB, and the kid wears out. While the author continues to dote on the rush, the Steelers start looking at the pass with an actual top-notch QB at the helm. Cowher may have his Championship team after all, since he will finally not be relegated to second-hand talent and projects/experiments. May I remind all that Ben has zero INT's so far this year..

CowherLover
10-03-2005, 07:44 PM
Suit.............. Ilove you man!

Hammer67
10-03-2005, 08:04 PM
Suit...great points....

On that note, I loved Ed Bouchette's article today in the Post Gazette about how Cowher is unfairly criticized. I actually have to agree with madden and Paul Alexander in that a lot of "Yinzer" fans tend to be uninformed about football. How can you blame Cowher for things like the stupid El lateral attempt or Brooks jumping offsides? These are intangibles....

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
10-03-2005, 08:58 PM
Well now we have a quarterback
a good set of backs
and the top ranked defense in the nfl
I believe if we have to beat a team throwing, ben can get it done.
the time is now
the Pats are finished

I.C. Lights
10-03-2005, 09:36 PM
Yeah, it's time alright. Just have a few minor kinks to work out - everyone's gotta stay healthy and we're there!!!

tony hipchest
10-03-2005, 09:41 PM
cold hard football facts is one of the biggest patriot homer sites on the web from what i understand and everything is spun to be "pro patriots".

tony hipchest
10-03-2005, 09:57 PM
what have shanahan, holmgren, switzer, bilichick, siefert, etc. done without their hall of fame quarterbacks? not half as much as cowher has done with the likes of odonnel, kordell, maddox, tomzac, and one superior rookie qb. anyone who thinks i would rather have one of these guys coaching my team cause they have a ring is kidding themselves.

tony hipchest
10-03-2005, 10:01 PM
im even willing to say the steelers would be the bears, browns, bengals, lions, colts, chiefs etc. without cowher as their head coach for the past 13+ years.

thumb 2 come
10-04-2005, 02:35 PM
Great post Suit.

Livinginthe past
10-04-2005, 02:48 PM
Like I said - the article is there to provide food for thought.

Any of you guys got the cojones to defend your team by writing into the CHFF - with your reasons as to why this article was written on a false premise?

If you can back up what you say with facts and figures, rathers than feelings and emotions I can pretty much guarantee you will be given a fair shot by the boys - and will more than likely have your letter printed.

Cheers

NM

Suitanim
10-04-2005, 02:58 PM
An exercise in futility, I'm sure...

By the by, what isn't factual about stating that O'Donnell, Stewart and co. aren't top quality QB's?

Livinginthe past
10-04-2005, 03:09 PM
Hey Suit,

You misunderstood the point of my post. Im saying you have some valid points there - maybe you would care to debate them with the CHFF team - they themselves admit they can get stuff wrong.

They dont mind being shown the error of their ways as long as it is done with tangible facts and figures and can rebuff the stuff they posted.

Personally I would love to see a knowledgeable Steeler fan back his team with an intelligent argument - these guys are Pats fans - which they admit openly but they dont come across as openly biased.

Cheers

NM

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
10-04-2005, 03:37 PM
i feel that regardless of coach, once your in the big game its the players that have to come through play a good game mentally and physically. I will admit that the steelers have not done that in the past, however i do not believe the fault falls on cowher.
If you want to put the blame on the coaches, why not praise them for having such great coaching abilities to put playoff teams together, year after year. I dont hear as much criticzm about andy reid as i do cowher???????
Cowher is a consistent coach, and arguably one of the best coaches in the league

slashsteel
10-04-2005, 04:45 PM
Willie yes it is the players that have to come through. But a coach's job is to put those players in a position to win. Has Cowher done this? Somewhat but at times you do have give a big WTF?

Like starting a one dimentional RB in the pats championship matchup, I would have preferred Staley. Or hell even Willie for that matter.

And why did we go for a field goal down by 14? Bonehead call no matter how you spin it.

Ben was hitting the rookie wall somewhat in the jet game, why not shorten his passes, instead of zipping the ball down field. Just maybe we wouldn't have had those INT"s. As he didn't have any in this last game.

Killer instinct, not turtling it would help too. Too often with a lead we play not to lose, instead going full throttle. ( See Chargers for proof) And like this last game where was the screens with the pats blitzing ? ? didn't roll out as much as I would have liked, although I know some of it was the pats clogging the outside to force Ben to stay in the pocket. Too one dimentional. We have a first round TE, a pass catcher that has shown flashes, use him underneath.

Don't stick with one basic formula. Run pass pass or run run pass. Seems to me that the game plan was vanilla-sh. Started out mixing it up ok, but in the second half when the pats adjusted, bill decided to do absolutely nothing. Or at least it appeared that way. So a solid team might get you to the big dance, but there is no beating a coach that knows how to scheme properly. That is one thing nobody can take away from the pats, and if we want to be the next contender, we better be a little more diversified. As we def have the personel, no escuses come playoffs..........

SteelProven
10-04-2005, 05:22 PM
How many Pro-Bowl, All-Pro MVP won Superbowls, if I had to take a guess I'd say 90%. Every Superbowl team had a franchise QB, except the Ravens. But there defense at the time was arguably the best of all-time. But hey look what cowher has inherited, thanks to the Chargers and Giants.

tony hipchest
10-04-2005, 05:32 PM
Like I said - the article is there to provide food for thought.

Any of you guys got the cojones to defend your team by writing into the CHFF - with your reasons as to why this article was written on a false premise?

If you can back up what you say with facts and figures, rathers than feelings and emotions I can pretty much guarantee you will be given a fair shot by the boys - and will more than likely have your letter printed.

Cheers

NM
once again...the article was patsfans OPINIONs why cowher cant or will never win the big game[FACT]. yet us steelerfans must supply all the facts and figures. funny thing about statistics is that they can pretty much support any opinion out there[FACT]. the major flaw i saw in the article was that it made it seem like cowher choses to not have a top notch qb on his team as if he feels he dont need one. if it were that easy to go out there and get them every team would have one[FACT] . the 95 statistic interrested me most[FACT]. steelers had one of their lowest rushing seasons yet one of their best passing. contrary to what the article would suggest this was due to personnel rather than coaching[FACT].

rushers: eric pegram (who?) from atl. and rookie bam morris[FACT]
wr's: ernie mills, yancy thigpen, charles johnson, andre hastings (who all were either a #1 or #2 wr either with the steelers or another team)[FACT] plus one phenominal rookie kordell stewart who many believe could have been a pro bowl wr if that were the career path he wouldve chosen. definitely 1-5 the best wr corp the steelers have ever had let alone most other teams.

cowher tried to get odonnel to stay along with all those wr's[FACT]. cowher didnt prevent chan gailey, d. lebeau, m. lewis, dom capers from leaving[FACT]. he couldnt.

k. green (#1 sack leader amongst lb's in the league)[FACT] and c. brown one of the hottest and youngest prospects at the position left. cowher did not give greg lloyd (the most fierce lb in the game at the time) staph infection in his ankle which cut short his career[FACT].

cowher didnt plant pot in bam morris' trunk[FACT]. what cowher did do was fire moris and make one of the steelers best trades ever in acquiring jerome bettis[OPINIONATED FACT].

the article also makes good use of the 70's dolphins and their power running game, lack of passing, etc. and how that was outdated. who was the coach? don shula[FACT]. what did he do with the most prolific passer of all time? NOTHING. how come he is never called a choker with dan marino at the helm? take a look at how far shula got in the playoffs with marino vs. how far cowher has gotten in his 13 years. and cowher is the choker? why couldnt the great jimmy johnson get marino a ring if it all boils down to the coaches? and again...how many playoff games have seifert, holmgren, johnson, shannahan, belichick, parcells won without their hof qb's? (assuming t. brady makes the hof of course) as a patfan you know better than anyone they would be mediocre at best, w/o brady. is parcells a choker because he couldnt win it all with a #1 qb pick in the draft and the #4 rusher of all time? whether cowher will ever be able to win a superbowl is very subjective and a matter of interpretation of the facts. fact is anything can happen. pats, bucs, ravens, and rams winning the superbowl prove that. :grin:

Black-n-Gold
10-04-2005, 05:53 PM
The fact that Cowher can turn just about anyone into a probowl LB is enough. As long as this man stays here our defense will be strong. I agree that we wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as we have in the past with out him. I'll always support him, he's one of the best coaches in my opinion..

Suitanim
10-04-2005, 07:21 PM
I'm not going to go to a Pats based website and shower them with facts and figures supporting why Kordell Stewart and Bubby Brister weren't top notch NFL QB's...It's pretty obvious. They'll just try to paint me as a Cowher apologist regardless...

I will go one step further, though, as to WHY we were fielding superior teams with a weak link at the QB spot. It was money, pure and simple. The Rooney's run a football team as their business. They don't have other holdings like dot com or shaving cream companies, they just have a football team. When they got their new stadium, they opened up revenue streams that allowed them to finally start playing "Capology" as well as restructuring deals, etc, etc...Now they can afford to draft a QB in the 1st round. With the exception of Jerome Bettis, we were running a lot of skill positions with later round drafts, and drafting "Cheap" in the 1st round with lineman and the like. Now they have a little more free hand to spend, and they are spending wisely.

tony hipchest
10-04-2005, 08:54 PM
suitanim- this site really seems like a pats propoganda site with a napoleon complex spin, designed to make the pats out as the greatest team ever and denegrate anything else the other teams have accomplished. fact is cowboys and s.f. have 5 champs, pittsburgh 4 and pats 3. yet sites like these will contend that c. noll, t. landry and b. walsh were too stupid to figure out how to manage the cap like b. belichick has. they will say that patriots face much tougher competition, ignoring the fact that the steelers battled powerhouses like raiders and dolphins of the 70's for a whole decade. yet this site is "unbiassed". attempts of a patfan practically calling out a steelerfan to go there (otherwise steelerfan lack cojones) almost seems like a frat house treasure hunt for shits and giggles. if chff already had all the "facts" why scour a steelerboard for more? nice take on the rooneys and 'capology'. im sure (about 49% of) patfans would just call facts like those "whining" or "excuses": however steelerfans know that while many still believe the rooneys to be cheap and not paying their players, they have had one of the highest salaries and maxed out to the salary cap ever since they opened a new stadium to generate revenue.

Suitanim
10-04-2005, 09:01 PM
Well, all I know is this: I'm not going there. There's no sense trying to convince know-it-alls while they are gathered en masse, even when they are wrong and misguided.

Livinginthe past
10-05-2005, 01:51 PM
Well, all I know is this: I'm not going there. There's no sense trying to convince know-it-alls while they are gathered en masse, even when they are wrong and misguided.

Hey that is both a poignant and hugely relevant remark Suitanim.

I couldnt have phrased it better if I tried.

NM

Suitanim
10-05-2005, 04:55 PM
Did you read the part about "I'm not going there"?

tony hipchest
10-05-2005, 05:00 PM
Did you read the part about "I'm not going there"?

:grin: :grin: :grin:

it seems facts often go ignored by patfans anyways.

DISCLAIMER: "patfans" is being used as a general term and in no way intended to lump every patriot fan on earth together. im sure there are a few exceptions to the rule.

Livinginthe past
10-05-2005, 05:21 PM
Did you read the part about "I'm not going there"?

Yes I did.

ironcitychef
10-06-2005, 09:55 PM
I have always agreed on the SF/DAL having 5 thing which is why I like giving Pats fans crap until they get their fourth, no matter how long ago we got ours. As for the salary cap, I think it is a great achievement for the Pats to be really the only franchise in the modern era to dominate over a long consistent period, but it should never be said that those great coaches are less because they couldn't have done it. Fact is they didn't even have to worry about it. How many of you work in some cappacity where your company pays the people who report to you where all you have to do is supervise? I know I do, not that I couldn't pay my guys, but it would just be another thing in my to do list every day. It will always be two different view points around the salary cap effect, but all who win multiple Super Bowls are in elite company.

slashsteel
10-07-2005, 07:01 AM
which is why I like giving Pats fans crap until they get their fourth,

You won't see a fourth in this decade. They are done stick a fork in them.


I think it is a great achievement for the Pats to be really the only franchise in the modern era to dominate over a long consistent period, but it should never be said that those great coaches are less because they couldn't have done it.

Dominate? They squeeked by with three wins. Hardly domination. A good run, but I want to see them win one more before giving them a era domination title...... like dallas, niners, and our team holds...........