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aries4972
09-13-2007, 01:28 PM
.... could this be a possible punishment??

KOMMANDO
09-13-2007, 01:34 PM
The NFl is not gonna suspend Bellicheat.. He's a semi poster boy for them Winning those superbowls etc.. it would be like the NFl admitting that it's corrupt like the NBA ref thing. Goddell is going to dock them a fine ( which Kraft will easily pay with pennies) and take away likely 2 draft picks.. a 2nd rounder and like a 5th or 6th.. basically a slap on the wrist.

I would love to see Belicheat suspended for 2 games, pats docked a # 1 and a # 3 draft pick.. That would send a serious message to the staff's around the league that just like the players.. This is now a no nonsense run league.. But it won't happen!.

StinkyB
09-13-2007, 01:39 PM
They should make his have Tom Brady's next illegitimate child.

aries4972
09-13-2007, 01:45 PM
I wonder who they get to "film" the birth.:wink02:

Dino 6 Rings
09-13-2007, 01:52 PM
It would be a very strong statement if they suspended Bill B for even one game. In this league, One game can be the difference between the playoffs and golf...

of coarse in the AFC east, it might be 3 games...but still, one game would be a huge deterrent for any other cheaters.

MACH1
09-13-2007, 02:08 PM
Even if he was suspended he would find a way to cheat that too. Like a video phone, web cam, cell phone or some sort.

Borski
09-13-2007, 06:42 PM
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/14109617/detail.html

BOSTON -- WCVB has learned the NFL will punish the New England Patriots and the team's coach, Bill Belichick, after the team got caught taping signals during the Jets game, sources confirmed Thursday.

SportsCenter 5's Mike Lynch reported that a decision will be announced Friday, but WCVB sources have said the NFL will fine Belichick $500,000. The fine has to be paid by Belichick himself and cannot be paid by the team's owner, Robert Kraft.

In addition to the fine, the Patriots must forfeit two high draft choices. They could be as high as a first- and a third-round draft choice, sources said.

A letter will be faxed to Belichick telling him of the NFL's decision, and he will not be required to appear in person at the NFL headquarters in New York City.

The controversy started when a Patriots cameraman was caught videotaping a New York Jets coach's signals during last weekend's season-opening game.

In a news conference Wednesday, Belichick issued a terse written statement before his regular weekly team news conference saying, "Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

Belichick indicated he may have misinterpreted the National Football League's rules regarding recording games.

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner (Roger) Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling," Belichick said.

The Patriots were accused of spying during Sunday's game against the New York Jets by Jets coach Eric Mangini. NFL security officials confiscated a video camera from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the sideline Sunday.

Borski
09-13-2007, 06:48 PM
the title was supposed to say 500 grand, oh well

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 06:52 PM
the title was supposed to say 500 grand, oh well

I fixed it. :thumbsup:

revefsreleets
09-13-2007, 06:55 PM
I think forfeit is the only applicable punishment. One NFL game is huge, and it would have double impact because it was divisional foe. I consider this a slap on the wrist.

Preacher
09-13-2007, 06:56 PM
Hmmm....

Just short of what I wanted.

I wanted the forfeit of last week and a 1st and 2nd this year, 2nd next year.

I will take the half a million for the 2nd next year as it puts personal responsibility on Theifachek. However, I still think they got a win based on cheating and the win should be removed.

However, while I am not completely satisfied with it, I can (almost) settle for it.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 06:57 PM
The fine is pointless - it will just get rolled into his next contract - players who screw up do not get fined - they get suspended - should be the same for coaches

SI.com says the talk is potential loss of first day draft choices + multi-game suspension

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.html

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 06:59 PM
The fine is pointless - it will just get rolled into his next contract - players who screw up do not get fined - they get suspended - should be the same for coaches

SI.com says the talk is potential loss of first day draft choices + multi-game suspension

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.html

Considering the source of the article is in Boston, this may just be wishful speculation.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-13-2007, 07:00 PM
I would have liked to see a decrease in their salary cap next year and not only a fine for the Coach but a fine for the organization AND a suspension for at least 4 games. I dunno I think they went to easy on them.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:11 PM
This is just speculation - Goodell is only making the announcement friday at the earliest.

The Boston media has not shortage of pro-Sox reporters, anti-Patriots reporters (the two are seen to be in direct competition by the owners of some of these papers) - so I can believe they are jumping the gun with this one.

These are the guys who made came up with the exclusive 'Belichick summoned to NY' story - which turned out to be bogus.

As usual, there is no end of 'sources' - people who can't be held accountable when the story goes pear-shaped.

For someone as in-the-know as this source alleges to be he is very vague on the actual draft picks being taken away from the Patriots "could be as high as a 1st and a 3rd"...sure...two high draft choices can't mean much else can it?

One thing that my sources have told me we can totally discount is any type of retroactive forfeiting of the Jets/Patriots game.

Some Jets fans have even convinced themselves they are going to get these draft picks that the Patriots have to forfeit! :toofunny:

Anyhow, time will sort this one out - it would be good to have the judgement tomorrow.

revefsreleets
09-13-2007, 07:18 PM
Regardless of penalty, the most important thing is that the Pats will have to play fair now. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Are they really as talented as we all thought? How mad will the Chargers be? How hard will the Pats players try to overcompensate? Will it make up the gap? Is there a gap?

The Pats/Chargers game was already going to get great ratings being the Sunday Night game, but now? HUGE ratings!

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 07:22 PM
That's awesome

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 07:24 PM
One thing that my sources have told me we can totally discount is any type of retroactive forfeiting of the Jets/Patriots game.

Some Jets fans have even convinced themselves they are going to get these draft picks that the Patriots have to forfeit! :toofunny:

.you have "sources"???? :toofunny:

but yeah, theres no way the game will be forfeited. theres no precedent for that (even though theres no precedent for this type of cheating).

jets fans are on crack if they think they will be the beneficiary of all of this.

i agree that a fine of belichick is pointless and a salary cap reduction would probably be a good way of evening things out, although im sure theres ways to circumvent that by just pushin players salaries into the future. plus it hits them next year and not now.

that is why a suspension makes the most sense. it punishes them NOW for infractions committed NOW.

any of the 3 penalties alone mean practically nothing. all 3 together send a distinct message. now is where we really see if goodell is wearing the pants...

fine
suspension
draft picks

Preacher
09-13-2007, 07:26 PM
Regardless of penalty, the most important thing is that the Pats will have to play fair now. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Are they really as talented as we all thought? How mad will the Chargers be? How hard will the Pats players try to overcompensate? Will it make up the gap? Is there a gap?

The Pats/Chargers game was already going to get great ratings being the Sunday Night game, but now? HUGE ratings!


Oh yeah....

It may get 60, 65 percent superbowl ratings...

I think almost every fan of every team is now going to watch to see what the Pats can do when they don't have their hands in teh cookie jar.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:28 PM
Regardless of penalty, the most important thing is that the Pats will have to play fair now. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Are they really as talented as we all thought? How mad will the Chargers be? How hard will the Pats players try to overcompensate? Will it make up the gap? Is there a gap?

The Pats/Chargers game was already going to get great ratings being the Sunday Night game, but now? HUGE ratings!

Thats a very good point.

As Atlanta Dan (I think) pointed out - sports needs its good guy/bad guy match ups - everyone loves LT (I still think he is great despite his outburst after the Divisional game last year) and everyone hates the Patriots - well slightly more than they used to anyways.

We'll see how this shakes out sunday.

revefsreleets
09-13-2007, 07:30 PM
Oh yeah....

It may get 60, 65 percent superbowl ratings...

I think almost every fan of every team is now going to watch to see what the Pats can do when they don't have their hands in teh cookie jar.

I was watching anyway, but I'll pay more attention now. I wonder if I can trade my Patriots players in fantasy before Sunday?

Preacher
09-13-2007, 07:30 PM
Thats a very good point.

As Atlanta Dan (I think) pointed out - sports needs its good guy/bad guy match ups - everyone loves LT (I still think he is great despite his outburst after the Divisional game last year) and everyone hates the Patriots - well slightly more than they used to anyways.

We'll see how this shakes out sunday.

I think we are all in agreement... that this bodes really well for the NFL as a whole...

BIG ratings over the next few weeks.

Preacher
09-13-2007, 07:31 PM
I was watching anyway, but I'll pay more attention now. I wonder if I can trade my Patriots players in fantasy before Sunday?

I wasn't dead set on it... I am now. I really want to see what will happen.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:33 PM
you have "sources"???? :toofunny:

but yeah, theres no way the game will be forfeited. theres no precedent for that (even though theres no precedent for this type of cheating).

jets fans are on crack if they think they will be the beneficiary of all of this.

i agree that a fine of belichick is pointless and a salary cap reduction would probably be a good way of evening things out, although im sure theres ways to circumvent that by just pushin players salaries into the future. plus it hits them next year and not now.

that is why a suspension makes the most sense. it punishes them NOW for infractions committed NOW.

any of the 3 penalties alone mean practically nothing. all 3 together send a distinct message. now is where we really see if goodell is wearing the pants...

fine
suspension
draft picks

If warranted, suspension does make the most sense - if Goodell really wants to punish the Patriots and BB, and be seen to be doing it aswell, thats what he will be looking at.

The salary cap/ draft picks stuff could be fiddly - and will potentally affect the players in next years draft calss, the orderc teams pick in and therefore the amount of money they should be paid.

If Belichick is the one flouting the rules so brazenly, then its he who needs to be punished (though of course the team will aswell - missing its HC for the length of the suspension)

ps. My sources aren't happy that I even divulged their existence - these guys took a great risk to give me the inside line on this scandal.

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 07:35 PM
the penalty is in.

if they make the playoffs they lose their 2008 1st round pick.

if not they lose the 2nd and 3rd

belichick fined half a mil and the team fined a quarter mil.

slap on the wrist.

(oops.. as per nfl networks breaking news)

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:38 PM
I was watching anyway, but I'll pay more attention now. I wonder if I can trade my Patriots players in fantasy before Sunday?

I reckon you can.

Moss/Stallworth for Burress/Muhammed

Or.

Moss for Burress straight up.

Give me the word and i'll fax my offer. :wink02:

RoethlisBURGHer
09-13-2007, 07:39 PM
I think they should be stripped of the first and second round draft picks of the 2008 NFL Rookie Draft. I am fine with Bellichick being fined $500,000 that cannot be paid by Patriot's owner Robert Kraft. The only problem is, the NFL can't do anything if after 'Chick pays the fine...Kraft cuts a $500,000 personal check to him.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:40 PM
the penalty is in.

if they make the playoffs they lose their 2008 1st round pick.

if not they lose the 2nd and 3rd

belichick fined half a mil and the team fined a quarter mil.

slap on the wrist.

(oops.. as per nfl networks breaking news)

Wow.

Yeah I see that on the NFL frontpage - thats an odd proviso regarding our performance/weight of penalty.

So we are back down to 1 1st round pick in 2008 then?

We'd have only traded it for a 2009 1st rounder anyway! :toofunny:

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 07:41 PM
the penalty is in.

if they make the playoffs they lose their 2008 1st round pick.

if not they lose the 2nd and 3rd

belichick fined half a mil and the team fined a quarter mil.

slap on the wrist.

(oops.. as per nfl networks breaking news)

The fines are bullshit - Maybe Pacman should ask why he should not just pay a fine

If Gene Upshaw had not been castrated I assume he might have something to say about this - if I belonged to the NFLPA this would confirm the union is toothless and Goodell is the owners' cabin boy

If Belichick leaves in the next year or two the loss of the draft choice certainly won't break his heart.

Borski
09-13-2007, 07:44 PM
I would of liked to see a 1-2 game suspension added too that, but I think its acceptable.

I didn't like the forfeit idea, the tape was confiscated before the Pats could use it and it could give the Jets an advantage in the Wild Card race.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:46 PM
The fines are bullshit - Maybe Pacman should ask why he should not just pay a fine

If Gene Upshaw had not been castrated I assume he might have something to say about this - if I belonged to the NFLPA this would confirm the union is toothless and Goodell is the owners' cabin boy

If Belichick leaves in the next year or two the loss of the draft choice certainly won't break his heart.


I think the link to Pacman is a tenuous one, at best.

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 07:50 PM
The fines are bullshit - Maybe Pacman should ask why he should not just pay a fine

If Gene Upshaw had not been castrated I assume he might have something to say about this - if I belonged to the NFLPA this would confirm the union is toothless and Goodell is the owners' cabin boy

If Belichick leaves in the next year or two the loss of the draft choice certainly won't break his heart.

looks like 'chick gets off the hook unlike cabin boy goodell

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/cabinboy.jpg

*awaits the "its racist" tirade*

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 07:55 PM
ITS RACIST!

revefsreleets
09-13-2007, 07:56 PM
I reckon you can.

Moss/Stallworth for Burress/Muhammed

Or.

Moss for Burress straight up.

Give me the word and i'll fax my offer. :wink02:

I don't know. Plaxico looked pretty good, and the Giants don't actually know what defensive formations they are facing. That is tempting.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:00 PM
I don't know. Plaxico looked pretty good, and the Giants don't actually know what defensive formations they are facing. That is tempting.

Ha ha.

Ah im going to hear those types of digs for awhile...so be it. :chuckle:

I'll send you the trade offer.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 08:00 PM
I think the link to Pacman is a tenuous one, at best.

Why? - generally speaking, the effect of punishment is intended to be punitive and deter future conduct, not act as a revenue source for the league.

What deterrent effect will fining someone as wealthy as Belichick have, especially since he can get an incentive clause of $500K written into his next contract for fogging up a mirror.?

But if you want to focus on misconduct by an individual for seeking a competitive advantage, as opposed to being indicted for off the field activities, why suspend a player for taking HGH or steroids but not for this?

Walk me through how it makes any sense at all for Wade Wilson to be suspended for 5 games and fined $100,000 while Belichick only gets fined for repeatedly engaging in this sort of premeditated conduct (the memo to cut out this sort of stuff went out in response to last year's Green Bay incident).

Goodell lost points here in my eyes by applying a double standard for management's inner circle.

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 08:06 PM
If the Patriots lose Sunday... Even by the smallest margin... There will be hell to pay.

revefsreleets
09-13-2007, 08:06 PM
Ha ha.

Ah im going to hear those types of digs for awhile...so be it. :chuckle:

I'll send you the trade offer.


I'll accept or decline next Tuesday. I need, like every other NFL fan in the universe, to see what happens first. But if the Pats collapse like a video camera tripod (sorry, couldn't help it) Sunday, I want to hold you to your offer. You offered on faith, and I'll only accept on fact. Deal? That's almost like a bet.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:10 PM
I'll accept or decline next Tuesday. I need, like every other NFL fan in the universe, to see what happens first. But if the Pats collapse like a video camera tripod (sorry, couldn't help it) Sunday, I want to hold you to your offer. You offered on faith, and I'll only accept on fact. Deal? That's almost like a bet.

Gawd.

Ok..tripod..I laughed..a bit.

Thats fine - i'll retract the offer and until we can re-assess the situation. :wink02:

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:13 PM
Why? - generally speaking, the effect of punishment is intended to be punitive and deter future conduct, not act as a revenue source for the league.

What deterrent effect will fining someone as wealthy as Belichick have, especially since he can get an incentive clause of $500K written into his next contract for fogging up a mirror.?

But if you want to focus on misconduct by an individual for seeking a competitive advantage, as opposed to being indicted for off the field activities, why suspend a player for taking HGH or steroids but not for this?

Walk me through how it makes any sense at all for Wade Wilson to be suspended for 5 games and fined $100,000 while Belichick only gets fined for repeatedly engaging in this sort of premeditated conduct (the memo to cut out this sort of stuff went out in response to last year's Green Bay incident).

Goodell lost points here in my eyes by applying a double standard for management's inner circle.

There is a large difference in being the guy who over stepped the mark while trying to gain competitive advantage in a game of football and a guy who has repetitive run-ins with the actual law of the land.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see where people are coming from when they pull for a suspension (I thought it might be likely myself) - but I just don't see the link between an out and out thug and general menace to society and a grumpy old coach who is too arrogant to follow the rules.

Polly
09-13-2007, 08:25 PM
I don't think this whole camera thing gave them the whole win but I do think it shouldn't of happend since they really didn't need it anyhow

knowing the signal wont help moss run past 3 defenders nor would it help hobbs take one back all the way for 108 yds

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 08:25 PM
Don't get me wrong, I can totally see where people are coming from when they pull for a suspension (I thought it might be likely myself) - but I just don't see the link between an out and out thug and general menace to society and a grumpy old coach who is too arrogant to follow the rules.
following the rules is the key phrase here and is exactly why there is a link.

nobody is suggesting belichick face jail time like the laws of the land can impose on pac man or vick.

its wrong to mix up the criminal element with the nfl code of conduct element. 2 seperate enteties and 2 seperate punishments.

just cause chick didnt commit a crime, it doesnt mean he violated the nfl any less.

SteelersGirlTN7
09-13-2007, 08:29 PM
I think forfeit is the only applicable punishment. One NFL game is huge, and it would have double impact because it was divisional foe. I consider this a slap on the wrist.


I agree!

I mean the loss of the draft pick is kind of big, however, $500K for Belichick, and $250K for the organization is basically pennies, with the millions of dollars made in salary by BB, and also for the organization.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:29 PM
following the rules is the key phrase here and is exactly why there is a link.

nobody is suggesting belichick face jail time like the laws of the land can impose on pac man or vick.

its wrong to mix up the criminal element with the nfl code of conduct element. 2 seperate enteties and 2 seperate punishments.

just cause chick didnt commit a crime, it doesnt mean he violated the nfl any less.

Well, ok.

On the subject of violating the NFL, would you agree that most, if not all, of the NFL franchises employ guys specifically to steal the oppsoitions signals?

I think they are called advance scouts or something similar.

Would you then agree that the major difference in what everyone does and what the Patriots did - was the use of a video camera to make a permanent record?

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 08:31 PM
There is a large difference in being the guy who over stepped the mark while trying to gain competitive advantage in a game of football and a guy who has repetitive run-ins with the actual law of the land.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see where people are coming from when they pull for a suspension (I thought it might be likely myself) - but I just don't see the link between an out and out thug and general menace to society and a grumpy old coach who is too arrogant to follow the rules.

I acknowledge your distinction between Pacman (who unlike Vick has not yet been convicted) and Belichick - I am not as certain as you are whether Pacman's or Belichicks's conduct has a more direct impact on the integrity of the actual competition, although I recognize Goodell simply wishes the Pacmans and Vicks of the world would go away as not being the sort of people season ticket holders would want to share a luxury box with.

Given that neither of us would want Pacman in our neighborhood, let's move on to the rest of my inquiry. Since i assume you are not referring to Harrison and Wilson as out and out thugs (we agree on Wilson), why should Wilson and Harrison be suspended but not Belichick?

Belichick is much higher up in the management chain, his conduct clearly is not an isolated incident but part of a premeditated pattern, and it involves supervising & directing others to carry out the misconduct. Under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines those sort of factors get you an enhanced rather than reduced sentence.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Goodell's press release

This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field. Coach Belicheat no only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club. I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Billicheat . I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeitures of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective than a suspension."

Ahhh I say the same thing I said in the Blast Furnace New England has TWO first round draft picks next year and an extra 3 rounder and this is supposed to hurt ....HOW? Personally the time does not fit the crime. I hope the chargers used Brady as a mop this sunday night.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:38 PM
I

Given that neither of us would want Pacman in our neighborhood, let's move on to the rest of my inquiry. Since i assume you are not referring to Harrison and Wilson as out and out thugs (we agree on Wilson), why should Wilson and Harrison be suspended but not Belichick?

Belichick is much higher up in the management chain, his conduct clearly is not an isolated incident but part of a premeditated pattern, and it involves supervising & directing others to carry out the misconduct. Under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines those sort of factors get you an enhanced rather than reduced sentence.

I have absolutely no problem with people who thought that this matter should be dealt with (once the severity was understood) by the awarding of a suspension for the offending HC.

The only issue I had was the comparison to Pacman.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:42 PM
Goodell's press release

This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field. Coach Belicheat no only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club. I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Billicheat . I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeitures of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective than a suspension."

Ahhh I say the same thing I said in the Blast Furnace New England has TWO first round draft picks next year and an extra 3 rounder and this is supposed to hurt ....HOW? Personally the time does not fit the crime. I hope the chargers used Brady as a mop this sunday night.

You know, I guess in the excitement of playing the disciplinarian Goodell must have totally forgotten how to spell Belichicks name - not only that, he spelt it wrong in two different ways.

Attention to detail should be everything, Roger.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 08:42 PM
I have absolutely no problem with people who thought that this matter should be dealt with (once the severity was understood) by the awarding of a suspension for the offending HC.

The only issue I had was the comparison to Pacman.

Fair enough:cheers:

I should have waited for Goodell's press release - he articulated my sentencing factors but IMO missed the boat on how a fine (which has no long term effect on anyone this wealthy) achieves any of the goals he seeks to achieve with regard to Belichick

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Using video to cheat is almost as bad as HGH. Not quite there, but it's not far off. Cheating is cheating.

If this comes to pass (500,00 and a few draft picks) I will be a little disappointed. I would have thought Goodell would have come down a little harder than that.

My suggestion:

$500,00 fine to Belicheat, Lose 1st round draft picks (Either both this year or one from this year and one next since I believe they traded to get one during the draft for this season) and suspend him for the next meeting against the Jets.

That is what I would do at this point. That delivers the message, pleases the Jet organization and costs the team as well as the coach.

The thing I want to know is... WHAT ABOUT THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY USED THE CAMERA??? I would HOPE he has received some type of indefinite punishment. I don't know who he is, is he employed by the league in anyway? Just some random dude who needed a job or what? But anyway, he needs to be put down as well. I can't believe no one has mentioned this in everything I have heard.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Fair enough:cheers:

I should have waited for Goodell's press release - he articulated my sentencing factors but IMO missed the boat on how a fine (which has no long term effect on anyone this wealthy) achieves any of the goals he seeks to achieve with regard to Belichick

Despite my earlier (tactical) downplaying of the draft pick loss - I think they will hurt us going forward.

As you say fines always seem to be of an insignificant value - players get fined amounts like $7,500 for misdemeanors and I don;t see how that is supposed to be a deterrent.

I think that the punishment should correct the area in which the advantage was gained.

A quick example from the English soccer league (apologies in advance!) - team A played the final part of the season with a player who was later found to be ineligible to play.

This player had a large effect on team A's fortunes - they avoided relegation/demotion, instead team B was relegated.

When the illegality of the situation came to light team A was fined $2million - which sounds alot but is in fact very little when you consider the financial implications of being relegated (less TV money, smaller crowds, loss of best players).

When all is said and done team A effectively paid a fee fo ?2million to accumulate upward of ?30million ( a rough estimate).

Team A should have been relegated in place of team B.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 08:57 PM
He was following orders from Belicheat. As far as we know he may not even have been aware of the rule, assuming that if Belicheat told him to do it than it must be okay. (I know, pretty lame assumption, but the big fish here is BB!!)


Yeah, and if the cameraman bought that one, then he probably came in at half time with a 30 minute recording of his own eyeball!! :toofunny:

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 08:59 PM
Well, ok.

On the subject of violating the NFL, would you agree that most, if not all, of the NFL franchises employ guys specifically to steal the oppsoitions signals?

I think they are called advance scouts or something similar.

Would you then agree that the major difference in what everyone does and what the Patriots did - was the use of a video camera to make a permanent record?sorry, i simply cannot buy the whole "everybody does it" excuse. everybody does not cheat in the way the patriots did. they and all other teams were fairly warned.

belichick thumbed his nose at the new commissioner in exactly the same way o. thurman and c. henry did. they didnt heed his warnings as serious.

your argument is kinda like saying r. harrison did nothing worse than somebody being drunk in public because ultimately all they were doing was just a drug.

its all about competitive balance and being on an even playing field. its why the nfl went through all the trouble to establish a salary cap and ban steroids. anyone can read lips or cover their mouths, so the advantage is the same across the board in that aspect of "stealing signs".

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 09:01 PM
The thing I want to know is... WHAT ABOUT THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY USED THE CAMERA??? I would HOPE he has received some type of indefinite punishment. I don't know who he is, is he employed by the league in anyway? Just some random dude who needed a job or what? But anyway, he needs to be put down as well. I can't believe no one has mentioned this in everything I have heard.

Camera guy (he is a Pats employee) probably did not even know what he was doing was wrong. I still want to know where they came up with the red Canon jersey the NFL makes all on field photographers wear this year. That to me shows specific and aggravating intent to deceive since you are to trying to hide the status of the camera operator as a Pats stooge.

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 09:02 PM
The thing I want to know is... WHAT ABOUT THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY USED THE CAMERA??? I would HOPE he has received some type of indefinite punishment.

I think it's a safe bet that Matt Estrella (the name of the guy in question) is no longer in the employ of the New England Patriots organization.

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:04 PM
After watching the NFL network explanation I am very pleased with the Commissioners decision. If you get a chance to go to NFL.com and watch it... It puts things in perspective.

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 09:07 PM
If that guy gets fired for following orders that's pathetic!!

What can I say, Lloyd? Shit rolls downhill and Mr. Estrella was at the bottom of the hill.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 09:08 PM
sorry, i simply cannot buy the whole "everybody does it" excuse. everybody does not cheat in the way the patriots did. they and all other teams were fairly warned.

belichick thumbed his nose at the new commissioner in exactly the same way o. thurman and c. henry did. they didnt heed his warnings as serious.

your argument is kinda like saying r. harrison did nothing worse than somebody being drunk in public because ultimately all they were doing was just a drug.

its all about competitive balance and being on an even playing field. its why the nfl went through all the trouble to establish a salary cap and ban steroids. anyone can read lips or cover their mouths, so the advantage is the same across the board in that aspect of "stealing signs".

Thats fine.

I just wanted your opinion on how much teams actually try to steal other teams signals and how they go about it.

There is no doubt that what BB did, he was essentially thumbing his nose at the NFL management.

He and his team paid the price for that arrogance.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 09:10 PM
After watching the NFL network explanation I am very pleased with the Commissioners decision. If you get a chance to go to NFL.com and watch it... It puts things in perspective.

You mean NFL Network supports the decison by the organization that owns it:jawdrop:

Shocking news!!!

What is their explanation for no suspension?

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:10 PM
If that guy gets fired for following orders that's pathetic!!

What else would you expect from a franchise that's cheated it's way through a "dynasty"?

The biggest punishment in my mind is this... The three Super Bowls are forever tarnished. Say what you want about that but it's true. in the minds of almost every other teams, owners coachs and fans there will always be an asterisk next to the Patriots success.

That for me is the most satisfying punishment that could have been dealt. It's ashame... It really makes you think about the state that sports is in right now...

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:12 PM
You mean NFL Network supports the decison by the organization that owns it:jawdrop:

Shocking news!!!

What is their explanation for no suspension?


No actually... Both Faulk and Woodson who were the only two evaluating this said it was too light. Say what you want about the network but they are very unbiased in their coverage of the league.

TroysBadDawg
09-13-2007, 09:13 PM
ESPN reported that the fine is 500,000 to Belichick, 250,000 to the team. if they are in the playoffs the 1st round draft choice is gone, if not the 2nd and 3rd are gone. I still say the daft picks are a start, but he should be suspended and the game forfeited. He will get the fine back as a bonus or like posted by Atlanta Dan it will get rolled into next years salery. Still it is a slap on the wrist. oh yes those are the 2008 draft, I am still not allowed to post links so I can not post the link I found this on.

TroysBadDawg
09-13-2007, 09:16 PM
http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=293646&posted=1#post293646

Posted: 17 minutes ago
NFL fines Belichick, strips Patriots of draft pick
Associated Press


NEW YORK -- New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up its own first-round draft choice next year if it reaches the playoffs, and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't. If the Patriots lose their first-round selection next season, they still will have a first-round pick, obtained from San Francisco in the deal that brought Randy Moss from Oakland.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

The videotaping came to light after a camera was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday at Giants Stadium. Goodell will not change the outcome of the game.

The Jets issued a statement saying, "We support the commissioner and his findings. The focus of our organization remains on the upcoming game against Baltimore."

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."

New England, strengthened by the addition of Moss and two other first-rate wide receivers as well as linebacker Adalius Thomas, is considered one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the fourth time since the 2001 season.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video or coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations, wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The NFL statement said Goodell believed Patriots owner Robert Kraft was unaware of Belichick's actions.

But it said the commissioner believed penalties should be imposed on the club because "Coach Belichick not only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club."

NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The action against Belichick is the latest in a series of harsh disciplinary actions taken by Goodell, who took office on Sept. 1, 2006, succeeding Paul Tagliabue.

The most notable were the indefinite suspension of Atlanta quarterback Michael Vick after he pleaded guilty to a federal dogfighting conspiracy and the one-year suspension of Tennessee cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones after numerous run-ins with police.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved

Providence Steel
09-13-2007, 09:19 PM
In addition to the fines and loss of draft picks, Belli-cheater should have been suspended for the year with a review of the case in the off-season.

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 09:19 PM
Well, thats the fourteenth time i've seen that article in as many minutes :toofunny:

Thanks TroysbadDawg!

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:21 PM
Well, thats the fourteenth time i've seen that article in as many minutes :toofunny:

Thanks TroysbadDawg!

lol... your going to be seeing that for a long, long time :flap:

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 09:22 PM
No actually... Both Faulk and Woodson who were the only two evaluating this said it was too light. Say what you want about the network but they are very unbiased in their coverage of the league.

My bad - I misinterpreted your post to say the NFL Network commentators were debating whether Goodell's name should be changed to Solomon.

Since I have been watching WVU run Maryland off the field, what was presented on NFL Network that you have assessed to support no suspension as the right choice?

As LITP said, there are different good takes on this - would be interested in hearing yours:thumbsup:

Livinginthe past
09-13-2007, 09:35 PM
First up, i'd just like to re-iterate that I think what the Patriots did was wrong and deserved some degree of punishment.

But I thought i'd just highlight some of the more crass homerism from the 'unbiased' media, who whether you admit or not, definitely impact people's opinions on certain subjects.

Lets have a look at John Clayton.


Patriots step out of line.

It took NFL commissioner Roger Goodell only five days to react to Bill Belichick's spying incident and the penalty was worse than many expected.


But maybe the commissioner acted a little too quickly on this one. The penalty was too light.

The Patriots would lose a 2008 first-round choice if they make the playoffs, Belichick loses $500,000 and the Patriots will be fined $250,000. The only thing that might have been missing is a possible suspension, and that is the only thing that Goodell might have neglected.

It took NFL commissioner Roger Goodell only five days to react to Bill Belichick's spying incident and the penalty was worse than many expected.


But maybe the commissioner acted a little too quickly on this one. The penalty was too light.

The Patriots would lose a 2008 first-round choice if they make the playoffs, Belichick loses $500,000 and the Patriots will be fined $250,000. The only thing that might have been missing is a possible suspension, and that is the only thing that Goodell might have neglected.

Dolphins admit to signal spying.

Without convening a congressional hearing or hiring an independent counsel to investigate the incident, the NFL has ruled that the Miami Dolphins violated no league rules in the Tapegate affair associated with the team's 21-0 victory over the New England Patriots last Sunday.

Teams are always trying to steal signs and signals off other teams. That's just football.

The incident spawned considerable attention on Tuesday after some Dolphins players suggested to the Palm Beach (Fla.) Post that the team "purchased" tapes of the New England offense that provided audio of quarterback Tom Brady making audible and line-blocking calls.


Those players strongly hinted that the tapes were critical in preparing for the game and provided the Dolphins inside information about New England's offensive audible system.


"I've never seen [Brady] so flustered," middle linebacker Zach Thomas said.


The league's response? Pretty much a stifled yawn, since there is no rule prohibiting such film study.


"Reaction around the league office was, 'That's football,' " AFC spokesman Steve Alic said.

One Miami defender said it is common practice to take a TV tape of a game and enhance the volume to try to hear the quarterback's signals. The so-called "coaching" tapes supplied by the league to teams do not include audio. Television tapes often capture a quarterback's calls at the line of scrimmage because of the parabolic microphones used on the sideline.


Despite the attention garnered by the story, most league observers dismissed the importance of whatever the Dolphins did and chose to attribute the shutout victory to superior execution.

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:38 PM
My bad - I misinterpreted your post to say the NFL Network commentators were debating whether Goodell's name should be changed to Solomon.

Since I have been watching WVU run Maryland off the field, what was presented on NFL Network that you have assessed to support no suspension as the right choice?

As LITP said, there are different good takes on this - would be interested in hearing yours:thumbsup:

As I said earlier, it hits everyone involved. Opposition is pleased (or should be to a certain extent). The Patriots team as well as Beli-cheat individually are punished with the fines and lose of picks.

It wasn't so much what they said on NFL network that made me agree with this as it was that I got to really think about it for a few minutes. I feel this might a be a little weak.. But the ruling came closer to what I thought was fair than I believed it would. That pleases me.

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 09:42 PM
Thats fine.

I just wanted your opinion on how much teams actually try to steal other teams signals and how they go about it.

There is no doubt that what BB did, he was essentially thumbing his nose at the NFL management.

He and his team paid the price for that arrogance.
there are "fair" way to steal signs such as reading lips, and theyre are forbidden, unethical ways of stealing them that are specifically spelled out by the league.

its like the playbook issue. the ravens hiring brian st pierre to pump him of info is fair game. a team hiring some bum to break into a players car to steal a playbook is unfair.

i relayed a story a while back where pat kirwan was working for the jets. he actually took tape of a game broadcast of the dolphins, and listened with a stethescope to the tv to try and pick up dan marino's audiables. imo thats not illegal and definitely not against the rules. any teams employees can be that obsessive.. its just like hiring lip readers. or belichick employing that 1 guy who had no real position but had a photographic memory and could recall any play, down, and distance he saw. nothing wrong with all that.

what belichick did was akin to putting himself in the opponents huddle. that is flat out wrong and there havent been many teams trying to do that. if they were they woulda been busted too.

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 09:42 PM
First up, i'd just like to re-iterate that I think what the Patriots did was wrong and deserved some degree of punishment.

But I thought i'd just highlight some of the more crass homerism from the 'unbiased' media, who whether you admit or not, definitely impact people's opinions on certain subjects.

Lets have a look at John Clayton.


Patriots step out of line.



Dolphins admit to signal spying.


Of course teams are always trying to do it, but that is in the realm of human capabilities. When you add a camera or advanced technology to the mix it is just taking it way to far. That is unique to the Patriots. There is no way that more than a couple other teams have gone close to that. They aren't that dumb. It was so obvious what was going on a the Jets sideline it was just sincerely funny.

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 09:50 PM
First up, i'd just like to re-iterate that I think what the Patriots did was wrong and deserved some degree of punishment.

But I thought i'd just highlight some of the more crass homerism from the 'unbiased' media, who whether you admit or not, definitely impact people's opinions on certain subjects.

Lets have a look at John Clayton.


Patriots step out of line.



Dolphins admit to signal spying.what is crass and unbiassed "homerism" by what clayton wrote? when this story 1st broke he was one who was minimizing it. it wasnt until he realized the extent of the cheating that he saw belichick needed a significant penalty.

the miami story is old news. there is nothing wrong or illegal by tuning into CBS and recording a game on tape. it is broadcast to hundereds of millions of people have the access to the same tape.

way back in the day only certain wealthy teams had access to the coaching tapes referred to in the article you posted and all teams currently used. the nfl made a ruling that ALL teams would have access to the same tapes as it was a clear competitive advantage to those who didnt have it.

do you really think the nfl should permit all teams to video all other teams signals to try and win?

why dont the nfl just mandate that each team exchange playbooks a week before kick off. that would be great and make for excellent competition.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 10:03 PM
Mortenson senses "disappointment" around the league that there was no suspension.

Belichick apologizes to Patriots players, fans and Kraft - no apology to anyone else

Belichick claims he just misinterpreted the rule - what a tool

Here is John Clayton's take

Initial reaction around the league was negative. At the very least, Belichick should have been suspended one or two games along with the draft choice penalties. Those two games could be the difference between the Patriots making the playoffs or not making the playoffs. They have a tough schedule, and it will be hard for them to win more than 11 games with the quality of opponent they'll face.

Belichick now has the ability to coach 16 games, get into the playoffs and take the team to the Super Bowl. As everyone knows, Belichick doesn't think about the future. He focuses on the next game. Sure, he lost the ability to use signals of other teams to help him make offensive adjustments. He'll deal with that. He's the best coach in football.

But the Patriots lost a pick that isn't even as good as the one they received from the 49ers unless the 49ers make the Super Bowl.

This was a harsh penalty, but in many ways, the Patriots got off easy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3018407

ShutDown24
09-13-2007, 10:05 PM
I respect two NFL analysts/writers a ton. They are Clayton and Adam Schefter. How can you say Johnny is biased??? He broke a story along time ago about the Steelers cheating that lost them draft picks. Ever since he was 18 covering the league from turtle creek everything Jon Clayton has written has been completely unbiased. Insulting Clayton offends me almost as much as insulting the Steelers. HE IS A HOFer!

Steel_Bus_24
09-13-2007, 10:06 PM
should have been suspended for 4 games too

I hope L.T. and the Chargers stomp the you know what out of them....and more importantly we do too when we play them later this year

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 10:10 PM
I just hope the Chargers are taking their own wireless headsets into Foxboro - would hate to see another "inexplicable malfunction" at a critical juncture of the game when their offense is driving....

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 10:15 PM
know what will be best if the patriots actually make it to the superbowl?

hearing them celebrated for 2 whole weeks for overcoming the adversity of this, much like ray lewis has "overcome the adversity" of murdering (or witnessing the murder of :yawn:) 2 people, who is still celebrated this day.

Atlanta Dan
09-13-2007, 10:20 PM
know what will be best if the patriots actually make it to the superbowl?

hearing them celebrated for 2 whole weeks for overcoming the adversity of this, much like ray lewis has "overcome the adversity" of murdering (or witnessing the murder of :yawn:) 2 people, who is still celebrated this day.

Maybe we will hear how Belichick constantly is on the phone every night as other NFL coaches call him for advice and inspiration.

I agree the public has a short attention span but IMO within the league the players and coaches appear to think additional punishment is appropriate - let's see if we have any vigilantes:smile:

Steel_Bus_24
09-13-2007, 10:26 PM
Goodell also said they'll be taking a closer look at the PATS past though it wasn't announced as a full scale investigation and of course will be watching them very closely from now on

fansince'76
09-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Goodell also said they'll be taking a closer look at the PATS past though it wasn't announced as a full scale investigation and of course will be watching them very closely from now on

Meh - if Goodell takes any follow-up action at this point, it will be seen as a witch hunt. He had the opportunity to send a message and he chose to go with a slap on the wrist. O.J. is still looking for the "real killers" too, I'll bet. :coffee:

pitt
09-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Since they cheated during the game, they should have to forfiet the win.

tony hipchest
09-13-2007, 10:41 PM
Maybe we will hear how Belichick constantly is on the phone every night as other NFL coaches call him for advice and inspiration.

I agree the public has a short attention span but IMO within the league the players and coaches appear to think additional punishment is appropriate - let's see if we have any vigilantes:smile: lol. yep.

the patriots will either be celebrated or apologized for, having to plow through an nfl season with having something like this unfairly hung on their shoulders by about 10% of the fans. they will be "sold" the patriots.

most of the other fans will simply consider them a fraud.

the players and coaches are a different story though. but most of them knew the patriots were cheating all along (just never had the proof, only the odds).

ultimately though belichick will probably just use this as motivation. i can see his locker room speech right now (tongue in cheekly, of course)

[QUOTE]["ok, i went out there and cheated for you ****ers for 7 years. now its time to act like a man and prove to the world you can win a game on your own."/QUOTE]

this is where a suspension wouldve hurt them the most. however, just for belichick to come out and admitt all the games he cheated in would be good too.

it will be interresting to see how much hall of fame voters feel about this paper dynasty 5-10 years from now.

verks36
09-13-2007, 10:53 PM
Since they cheated during the game, they should have to forfiet the win.

I dont agree with this statement

Yes they cheated during the game. But what is done is done. Once the game is over you cant undo a score and just force a forfeit.

Taking away a win would just be way to controversial

I think roger should have come down harder though. The fine is nothing to The fat cheater coach

they shoud have
-1rst rpund pick draft
-3rd round pick
- suspened without pay for 4 games
- Salary cap hit for pats

come on guys this is the integrity of the game this is a huge deal. I think the comish came down not as hard because he like robert kraft.

NV STEELERS 723
09-13-2007, 11:12 PM
It explains alot of their success now...

How bout his...??? the pats should be banned from ALL video tape for the remainder of the year...no video tape on next week's team....and their cheaters , I mean coaches have to remain on the sidline instead of being up in the box... and for the record I think their video guy should go to a Pittsburgh prison ....

I also think the Pats should only be allowed to draft in 08 from the Raiders prqactice squad.....

Bottom Line.... I hate Cheaters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Steelman16
09-14-2007, 01:33 AM
I dont agree with this statement

Yes they cheated during the game. But what is done is done. Once the game is over you cant undo a score and just force a forfeit.

Taking away a win would just be way to controversial

I think roger should have come down harder though. The fine is nothing to The fat cheater coach

they shoud have
-1rst rpund pick draft
-3rd round pick
- suspened without pay for 4 games
- Salary cap hit for pats

come on guys this is the integrity of the game this is a huge deal. I think the comish came down not as hard because he like robert kraft.

I definately agree with you Verks, this is on the same scale as the NBA ref scandal, if not much higher just because of the huge fan base and money involved in the NFL. Belicheat was hardly made an example of with that punishment, though it may serve as a warning. If he'd been suspended and/or took a cap hit, consider the act of cheating via videotape non-existent hereafter. But nooo, the image of the Pats must be kept intact.

As somebody mentioned, they really are the posters boys of the NFL. Steelers? We're the blue-collar tough boys of the NFL. Big difference.

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 06:47 AM
I respect two NFL analysts/writers a ton. They are Clayton and Adam Schefter. How can you say Johnny is biased??? He broke a story along time ago about the Steelers cheating that lost them draft picks. Ever since he was 18 covering the league from turtle creek everything Jon Clayton has written has been completely unbiased. Insulting Clayton offends me almost as much as insulting the Steelers. HE IS A HOFer!

John Clayton is a total moron.

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 06:54 AM
what is crass and unbiassed "homerism" by what clayton wrote? when this story 1st broke he was one who was minimizing it. it wasnt until he realized the extent of the cheating that he saw belichick needed a significant penalty.

the miami story is old news. there is nothing wrong or illegal by tuning into CBS and recording a game on tape. it is broadcast to hundereds of millions of people have the access to the same tape.

way back in the day only certain wealthy teams had access to the coaching tapes referred to in the article you posted and all teams currently used. the nfl made a ruling that ALL teams would have access to the same tapes as it was a clear competitive advantage to those who didnt have it.

do you really think the nfl should permit all teams to video all other teams signals to try and win?

why dont the nfl just mandate that each team exchange playbooks a week before kick off. that would be great and make for excellent competition.

Well, I don't believe there to be such a huge distinction in employing lip-readers and guys with binoculars and having a guy with a video recorder.

It all seems a little ridiculous that the Patriots have been heavily punished for essentially using slightly higher spec technology.

When I see the self righteousness by other teams fans, I think its because they believe that the Patriots have been caught trying to get other teams signals - while also believing that no other team does the exact same thing.

This is totally wrong.

What the Patriots did was use an illegal method to try and obtain the same information others team do.

I guarantee you, alot of the guys spouting off with opinions don't realise that the Steelers devote as much time as anyone else to trying to steal their opponents signals and protect their own.

RoethlisBURGHer
09-14-2007, 07:08 AM
Well, I don't believe there to be such a huge distinction in employing lip-readers and guys with binoculars and having a guy with a video recorder.

It all seems a little ridiculous that the Patriots have been heavily punished for essentially using slightly higher spec technology.

When I see the self righteousness by other teams fans, I think its because they believe that the Patriots have been caught trying to get other teams signals - while also believing that no other team does the exact same thing.

This is totally wrong.

What the Patriots did was use an illegal method to try and obtain the same information others team do.

I guarantee you, alot of the guys spouting off with opinions don't realise that the Steelers devote as much time as anyone else to trying to steal their opponents signals and protect their own.

Oh I know this.

Here is my take:

With binoculars, many times it's still a hazy image and you can only "zoom in" so far. And if the coordinator is in the booth, just about forget seeing him.

However with a video camera, they can really zoom in. There is no guessing whatsoever on the signals or the lip reading. It's very clear and crisp. Also, they videotape can be reviewed at halftime to make better adjustments to the defense than someone using binaculars and a notepad.

And what makes this worse, is that Goodell warned ALL TEAMS (not all teams but the Patriots), that it is against the rules to videotape defensive and offensive signals. I doubt there was much "gray area" for Bellicheat to get confused. He's a very smart guy, look at what he has done as a coordinator and HC, I doubt he's easily confused as he's trying to get the media to think.

He was blatently thumbing his nose at the rules and the new commish. I think this should be the punishment:

Bellicheat is suspended for the Jets game in Foxborough, and if they meet in the playoffs, Bellicheat is suspended for that game as well.

No draft picks at all on the first day. Jets get draft picks as long as it doesn't add up to more than the 10 maximum allowed per draft.

If caught again, Bellicheat gets suspended without pay for the rest of season, the team is not allowed any on-field credentials beyond coaching and training staff, their game tape to be reviewed is given to them by the league, and the Patriot's orginization gets the fine of $5 million.

ShutDown24
09-14-2007, 07:21 AM
John Clayton is a total moron.

Do you even get ESPN over there? Apparently not

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 07:29 AM
Do you even get ESPN over there? Apparently not

I read his column on the ESPN website (when I want to feel like I know more than guys getting paid to write about football)

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 07:45 AM
Well, I don't believe there to be such a huge distinction in employing lip-readers and guys with binoculars and having a guy with a video recorder.

It all seems a little ridiculous that the Patriots have been heavily punished for essentially using slightly higher spec technology.

When I see the self righteousness by other teams fans, I think its because they believe that the Patriots have been caught trying to get other teams signals - while also believing that no other team does the exact same thing.

This is totally wrong.

What the Patriots did was use an illegal method to try and obtain the same information others team do.

I guarantee you, alot of the guys spouting off with opinions don't realise that the Steelers devote as much time as anyone else to trying to steal their opponents signals and protect their own.

LITP - the Pats flipped off the league office, which sent out a memo, afer they got caught pulling this crap in Green Bay, to cut it out. If they do not like the rules, then change the rules. Until then, obey the rules.

Belichick's claim he did not know the rules is nonsense - it is like being pulled over for speeding , claiming you did not see a speed limit sign posted, getting a warning from the cop, then pulling away from the cop and immediately resuming breaking the speed limit. IMO Goodell should have waited and had someone break down sideline tape of every game since Green Bay to see how often the "video assistant" was on the Pats sidline with video camera in tow, after calling in the video operator to ask him how often he did it & who told him to do it since Green Bay..

Or, to use another analogy, it is like getting harsher discipline the second time you violate the league's substance abuse policy (oh, wait, that is not a good analogy - the second time you violate the substance abuse policy it is a mandatory suspension, not a fine)

Typical arrogance by Belichick (and by Kraft for not telling him to quit, but since Belichick wins Kraft presumably would not care what Belichick does). His petty crap such as shoving photographers, cursing out the Steelers trainer who came on the field to help an injured Pats player, and playing games with the injury report each week finally caught up with him. Those are not sanctionable offenses but they are indicative of Belichick's attitude that the rules applied to mere mortals do not apply to him.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
.

Aussie_steeler
09-14-2007, 07:56 AM
John Clayton is a total moron.

Tried to clarify what you really meant.

American Heritage Dictionary
mo?ron (m?r'ŏn', mōr'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
A stupid person; a dolt.
Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.


Real classy post.

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 08:03 AM
John Clayton is a total moron.

Real classy post.

Funny, he didn't seem to have much of a problem with Clayton the day before yesterday:

What will be the longterm effect on Belichick and the Patriots?
Although this is embarrassing, you can't take away what this franchise can do. They may have the best team in football. Robert Kraft is one of the league's best owners. The team has three Super Bowl rings and a great chance to get a fourth. Other great organizations have paid penalties for violating league rules. The Broncos lost a draft choice for violating the salary cap with John Elway. The Steelers once had to forfeit a third-round draft choice for working out in shoulder pads in the offseason. The Patriots may lose a draft choice or two. And whether or not the Patriots videotaped the Jets' defensive signals, Belichick won't be any less of a coach.

John Clayton's take (always did like that guy) - on top of the other teams who 'bent the rules' I believe the 49ers also did some creative accounting.

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 08:10 AM
John Clayton is a total moron.

And I guess Peter King is also a moron?

Not enough
Belichick nets lenient punishment from Goodell, NFL

I think the Patriots and Bill Belichick got off lucky.

What Roger Goodell did in penalizing Belichick was significant, but he did not ban Belichick from coaching for even a week for repeatedly cheating -- after being warned 12 months ago to not videotape other teams' coaches signaling in plays from the sidelines.

When Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard....

Now, about Belichick's reaction. An odd mix of mea culpa with too much justification for the cheating, I thought. To me, there's something almost 1972-Nixonian about what Belichick did; and just before midnight Thursday, a longtime NFL employee echoed that to me. "Most of the people I've talked to this week have been mystified by this, like I am,'' this club official said. "It's like, Why did Nixon need Watergate? He was going to win the '72 election in a landslide anyway. And why does this guy with such a great team need to be doing penny-ante stuff against the rules anyway?''

You know what that is? It's a classic deflection by Belichick. Instead of simply admitting he broke the rules and saying he deserves to be censured, he throws the changeup and tries to smokescreen us. The "interpretation'' of the rule was in error. That's an insult to Goodell, and to every fan who loves either the Patriots, this game or both.

Goodell slapped Belichick hard, but not hard enough. A suspension should have accompanied the loss of the top draft choice.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/09/14/belichick.reax.ap/index.html?eref=T1

And so is Don Banks?

Lucky break
NFL lets Belichick, Patriots off easy after spy scandal

While the size of the fine is no doubt an embarrassment of sorts to Belichick, he garners large fees these days for appearances and speaking engagements, and even with his recently tarnished image will make up for the loss of income soon enough. I firmly believe the suspension that Goodell admitted he was considering for Belichick would have taken a far greater toll than the missing dollars. To be ostracized from his own players and the Patriots team complex for two or three weeks would have been a bitter pill for Belichick to swallow. Somehow, I think the stigma of that suspension would have stayed with Belichick far longer than the sting of the fine he incurred, staining his reputation in a way that a financial penalty does not.

For much of the day on Thursday, my SI.com colleague, Peter King, and I were hearing from multiple sources that Belichick's suspension was on the way. But in the end, Goodell may have taken it a bit lightly on the NFL's most successful coach, choosing not to exile him to the sidelines at the time of the year he lives for.

"I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Belichick,'' Goodell wrote in the league's statement announcing the penalties. "I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension.''

I'm not so sure. The sizable fine and the loss of a No. 1 draft pick will hurt; but in a week that has to rank among the darkest of Belichick's life and career, he has cause to feel to feel just a little bit fortunate. All things considered, it could have been worse.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/09/13/spy.reaction/index.html?eref=T1

To help educate me as to which writers and publications I should quit reading, maybe you can give me a list of all the pro football writers who you feel do not know as much about the game as you do. :smile:

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 08:23 AM
Oh I know this.

Here is my take:

With binoculars, many times it's still a hazy image and you can only "zoom in" so far. And if the coordinator is in the booth, just about forget seeing him..

If I want to see something at a distance, with clarity - I use binoculars - thats what binoculars do.

They don't show things up as hazy at all.

Scientists use telescopes (basically a single version of binoculars) to look at the stars - they don't use video camera's.

Last I heard these viedo camera's weren't equipped with x-ray vision, so if the co-ord stays in a booth it doesn't what you use to look at him - you won't see him.

However with a video camera, they can really zoom in. There is no guessing whatsoever on the signals or the lip reading. It's very clear and crisp. Also, they videotape can be reviewed at halftime to make better adjustments to the defense than someone using binaculars and a notepad..

Like I said, with binoculars you can zoom in - and I bet to a better degree than with a video camera.

Where we agree is that videotape is much easier reviewed at half time - the Patriots used the videotape to do what other teams were trying to do from written notes and memory.

And what makes this worse, is that Goodell warned ALL TEAMS (not all teams but the Patriots), that it is against the rules to videotape defensive and offensive signals. I doubt there was much "gray area" for Bellicheat to get confused. He's a very smart guy, look at what he has done as a coordinator and HC, I doubt he's easily confused as he's trying to get the media to think..

Without a doubt. Belichick has been punished, and punsihed hard, for ignoring the words of Goodell.

Of course he knew exactly what he was doing, but the guy is stubborn and more than likey thought he could just keep on doing it.

The argument BB would be presenting would probably be similar to mine - everyone is stealing signals but the Patriots have been caught making a permanent record of it.

He was blatently thumbing his nose at the rules and the new commish. I think this should be the punishment:

Bellicheat is suspended for the Jets game in Foxborough, and if they meet in the playoffs, Bellicheat is suspended for that game as well.

No draft picks at all on the first day. Jets get draft picks as long as it doesn't add up to more than the 10 maximum allowed per draft.

If caught again, Bellicheat gets suspended without pay for the rest of season, the team is not allowed any on-field credentials beyond coaching and training staff, their game tape to be reviewed is given to them by the league, and the Patriot's orginization gets the fine of $5 million.

Again, I agree.

BB has been punished for assuming Goodell wouldn't clamp down so hard.

Where you lose me again, is your ridiculous levels of punishment - but then you are a fan of a rival team, I doubt you would have thought it 'over-the-top' if the Patriots had been docked their 1st rounder for the next 10 years.

The Bronco's got caught cheating the salary cap and they forfeited only a 3rd rounder - I think thats a worse crime.

What gets people so excited is that they think that the Patriots are the only ones stealing signals from the oppsoition - everyone is doing it.

The Patriots just did it the wrong way.

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 08:30 AM
And I guess Peter King is also a moron?

Not enough
Belichick nets lenient punishment from Goodell, NFL

I think the Patriots and Bill Belichick got off lucky.

What Roger Goodell did in penalizing Belichick was significant, but he did not ban Belichick from coaching for even a week for repeatedly cheating -- after being warned 12 months ago to not videotape other teams' coaches signaling in plays from the sidelines.

When Dallas assistant coach Wade Wilson got suspended five games and fined $100,000 this month for using the banned substance HGH to treat impotency, Goodell told him coaches have to be held to a higher standard....

Now, about Belichick's reaction. An odd mix of mea culpa with too much justification for the cheating, I thought. To me, there's something almost 1972-Nixonian about what Belichick did; and just before midnight Thursday, a longtime NFL employee echoed that to me. "Most of the people I've talked to this week have been mystified by this, like I am,'' this club official said. "It's like, Why did Nixon need Watergate? He was going to win the '72 election in a landslide anyway. And why does this guy with such a great team need to be doing penny-ante stuff against the rules anyway?''

You know what that is? It's a classic deflection by Belichick. Instead of simply admitting he broke the rules and saying he deserves to be censured, he throws the changeup and tries to smokescreen us. The "interpretation'' of the rule was in error. That's an insult to Goodell, and to every fan who loves either the Patriots, this game or both.

Goodell slapped Belichick hard, but not hard enough. A suspension should have accompanied the loss of the top draft choice.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/09/14/belichick.reax.ap/index.html?eref=T1

And so is Don Banks?

Lucky break
NFL lets Belichick, Patriots off easy after spy scandal

While the size of the fine is no doubt an embarrassment of sorts to Belichick, he garners large fees these days for appearances and speaking engagements, and even with his recently tarnished image will make up for the loss of income soon enough. I firmly believe the suspension that Goodell admitted he was considering for Belichick would have taken a far greater toll than the missing dollars. To be ostracized from his own players and the Patriots team complex for two or three weeks would have been a bitter pill for Belichick to swallow. Somehow, I think the stigma of that suspension would have stayed with Belichick far longer than the sting of the fine he incurred, staining his reputation in a way that a financial penalty does not.

For much of the day on Thursday, my SI.com colleague, Peter King, and I were hearing from multiple sources that Belichick's suspension was on the way. But in the end, Goodell may have taken it a bit lightly on the NFL's most successful coach, choosing not to exile him to the sidelines at the time of the year he lives for.

"I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Belichick,'' Goodell wrote in the league's statement announcing the penalties. "I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension.''

I'm not so sure. The sizable fine and the loss of a No. 1 draft pick will hurt; but in a week that has to rank among the darkest of Belichick's life and career, he has cause to feel to feel just a little bit fortunate. All things considered, it could have been worse.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/09/13/spy.reaction/index.html?eref=T1

To help educate me as to which writers and publications I should quit reading, maybe you can give me a list of all the pro football writers who you feel do not know as much about the game as you do. :smile:

Sure, both guys write for SI.

What we rarely get is any type of differing thought on these matters - we get a bunch of talking heads (or writing heads) pontificating on something they know little more about than the average fan.

I agree that the suspension of the Belichick would have hurt the Patriots, definitely more than any fine - but in their eagerness to see the book thrown at the Patriots people are losing touch with reality.

For the reasons I have highlighted above, I think the judgement is harsh - everyone tries to steal signals the patriots used videotape instead of just lipreaders and game recordings.

What Belichick and the Patriots are being punished for is underestimating the determination of Goodell to come down hard on offenders of all descriptions.

That was their mistake and they've paid a high price for it.

Of course that price will never be enough for some fans - I guess they'll just have to learn to live it.

Just like how i'll have to live with the fact that alot of fans still think that the Patriots are the only team to try and steal signals (give back the Lombardi's LOL)

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 08:33 AM
LITP - the Pats flipped off the league office, which sent out a memo, afer they got caught pulling this crap in Green Bay, to cut it out. If they do not like the rules, then change the rules. Until then, obey the rules.

Belichick's claim he did not know the rules is nonsense - it is like being pulled over for speeding , claiming you did not see a speed limit sign posted, getting a warning from the cop, then pulling away from the cop and immediately resuming breaking the speed limit. IMO Goodell should have waited and had someone break down sideline tape of every game since Green Bay to see how often the "video assistant" was on the Pats sidline with video camera in tow, after calling in the video operator to ask him how often he did it & who told him to do it since Green Bay..

Or, to use another analogy, it is like getting harsher discipline the second time you violate the league's substance abuse policy (oh, wait, that is not a good analogy - the second time you violate the substance abuse policy it is a mandatory suspension, not a fine)

Typical arrogance by Belichick (and by Kraft for not telling him to quit, but since Belichick wins Kraft presumably would not care what Belichick does). His petty crap such as shoving photographers, cursing out the Steelers trainer who came on the field to help an injured Pats player, and playing games with the injury report each week finally caught up with him. Those are not sanctionable offenses but they are indicative of Belichick's attitude that the rules applied to mere mortals do not apply to him.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
.

We are on the same page regarding the reasons for the sanctions.

Belichikc thought he could ignore these memo's just because he didnt agree with them - now he knows different.

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=Livinginthe past;293774]Sure, both guys write for SI.

What we rarely get is any type of differing thought on these matters - we get a bunch of talking heads (or writing heads) pontificating on something they know little more about than the average fan.QUOTE]

Not true - you helpfully provided the link to Patriots Daily defending the conduct.:sofunny:

X-Terminator
09-14-2007, 09:12 AM
The punishment is about what I figured the Pats and Belichick would get, but honestly, I thought the fine would be much less than half a mil. I also felt that Belichick should have been suspended for blatant disregard of the rules - maybe not 4 games, but at least a game or two. If I would deliberately ignore the rules on my job, I'd be fired, so I don't think a suspension in this case would have been unreasonable. Still though, Goodell has still sent a pretty clear message to the rest of the league - that there's a new sheriff in town, and he means business.

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 09:16 AM
Not true - you helpfully provided the link to Patriots Daily defending the conduct.:sofunny:

So now you can see how far one must go to find truly unbiased opinion!?.. :toofunny:

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 09:19 AM
Not true - you helpfully provided the link to Patriots Daily defending the conduct.:sofunny::chuckle:

Originally Posted by Livinginthe past
Well, I don't believe there to be such a huge distinction in employing lip-readers and guys with binoculars and having a guy with a video recorder. you are obviously in the minority of haziness.

It all seems a little ridiculous that the Patriots have been heavily punished for essentially using slightly higher spec technology. slightly higher? how do you expect to be taken seriously when you compare the ancient art of lip reading to modern video and digital recording equipment?

When I see the self righteousness by other teams fans, I think its because they believe that the Patriots have been caught trying to get other teams signals - while also believing that no other team does the exact same thing. the patriots have been caught cheating. its that simple. what youre doing is exactly the same as a country violating the geneva convention by torturing pow's and saying "everybody tries getting info out of their prisoners"

or the cop who beats rodney king and says "i was just trying to punish a criminal".

the best example i can come up with is from "casino". sure counting cards in blackjack isnt illegal, but if youre too good and constantly beating the house you are going to politely be asked to leave. however if youre in a partnership, and your buddy is using electronical devices to help you "beat the house" hes gonna find himself in a back room with his hand busted up with a hammer.

"but everyone is trying to gain a competitive edge and win", right? :bs:

This is totally wrong. no, your whole post is totally wrong.

What the Patriots did was use an illegal method to try and obtain the same information others team do. what patriots did was get caught cheating. this excuse that "everybody does it" is false and juvenile.

I guarantee you, alot of the guys spouting off with opinions don't realise that the Steelers devote as much time as anyone else to trying to steal their opponents signals and protect their own. wow. a guarantee huh? now youre just making stuff up to try and remove the tarnish from the patriots and put it on everyone else. bogus

everything you say is just regurgitations of apologist patriot fans who will go to the ends of the earth with the "deny everything" mentality to try to preserve this little legacy of greatness that exists only in their heads. secretly they feel ashamed and betrayed and now doubt the king with no clothes. they built him up and worhiped him like a god, and now they realize hes gotta be one of the dumbest coaches out there to screw up this bad. all the deflection and false justification wont change that.

it is what it is.

BlastFurnace
09-14-2007, 09:29 AM
The best thing about this whole thing is that the Patriots = Barry Bonds in many people minds now. Their championships are tainted forever and their image as cheaters, like Bonds, is engrained in our minds forever.

Belicheck was a lousy head coach in Cleveland and had a lousy team in New England his first season there. He got lucky when he drafted a QB in the 6th round and now he has been caught cheating. Yeah...this guy belongs in the same conversation as Landry, Noll, Walsh, etc....give me a break.

Mosca
09-14-2007, 09:35 AM
The difference between a video camera and binoculars is so ridiculously obvious that I'm surprised it is even being debated. With a video camera you have a sharable, repeatable and reviewable record; with binoculars you have someone's opinion on what they remember having seen. The two are NOT comparable.


Tom

BlastFurnace
09-14-2007, 10:42 AM
It is any coincidence that LeBeau's defense thoroughly confused and harassed Brady and the genius Charley Weiss on the Haloween game in 2004...and then...all of the sudden...it was a completely different story during the Championship Game.

Do you think that ol' Belechek was had some video on LeBeau? I think so.

Livinginthe past
09-14-2007, 10:51 AM
It is any coincidence that LeBeau's defense thoroughly confused and harassed Brady and the genius Charley Weiss on the Haloween game in 2004...and then...all of the sudden...it was a completely different story during the Championship Game.

Do you think that ol' Belechek was had some video on LeBeau? I think so.

Another in a long line of excuse makers.

Your team sucks in the big game.

Get used to it (well, apart from the bit about actually making it to the big game...)

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Here is Belichick's statement - what a sanctimonious piece of garbage:

I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career. [and the rest of the league and its fans can go screw themselves]

As the commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress. [we break down the video and use it for the next time we play the team]

Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect. ["There is no controlling legal authority that says this was in violation of law." -- Al Gore]

With tonight's resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday's game. ["Let others wallow in Watergate?we are going to do our job.? - Richard Milhous Nixon]

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 10:53 AM
Another in a long line of excuse makers.

Coming from someone who has made one excuse after another over the last couple of days in an attempt to defend the indefensible, this is most ironic.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Another in a long line of excuse makers.

Your team sucks in the big game.

Get used to it (well, apart from the bit about actually making it to the big game...):poop:
why dont you keep this type of crap in the blast furnace while the big boys who actually understand the code of the shield talk some real football and real issues.

in fact now is the time all patfans should be banding together with brotherly love as they hunker in the bunker. :banana:

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 11:03 AM
in fact now is the time all patfans should be banding together with brotherly love as they hunker in the bunker. :banana:

And sip the red, white and blue Kool-Aid! :chicken:

BlastFurnace
09-14-2007, 11:04 AM
Another in a long line of excuse makers.

Your team sucks in the big game.

Get used to it (well, apart from the bit about actually making it to the big game...)

We suck in the big game..right. Count the Super Bowl trophies pal. I'll take the Steelers history any day of the week over the Patriots history.

As a matter of fact, between the two teams, we are the most recent champion. Who choked away a big lead in last years Championship Game against the Colts...Yeah...I thought so.

You're days of being a champion are not only tainted, but tainted for good.

Like I said before, if you're team didn't get lucky with a 6th round draft pick, you would have zero hardware in your box.

Time for you to get used to it.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 11:05 AM
Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect. ["There is no controlling legal authority that says this was in violation of law." -- Al Gore]



it mightve been more believable if he just said he thought he was taping coaches playing "rock, paper, sissors" on the sideline.

HometownGal
09-14-2007, 11:06 AM
And sip the red, white and blue Kool-Aid! :chicken:

And worship at the Belidick altar.

rog
09-14-2007, 11:08 AM
the thing I can't figure out about the punishment is why does it matter if the Pats make the playoffs or not it should be a first round pick no matter what and the 500k is wrong to it should have been atleast a 2 game suspension 4 would have been better though. The comish has brought the hammer when it came to the players and I agree with all those suspensions but what the Pats did was mess with the integrity of the game and that deserved more. And I don't care if all the other guys are doing it that is not a valid reason. Even if all the teams do this and it was just the Pats mistake getting caught that should be reason enogh for Goodell to make an example to everyone that cheating will not be tolerated.

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 11:10 AM
And worship at the Belidick altar.

And hold vigil in front of the Tom Brady shrine.

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 11:26 AM
Based on most of what I read in what has always been the virulently anti-Pats mainstream media, Goodell may have made one of his first missteps as Commissioner by not suspending Belichick.

If this was Tagliabue a loss of a 7th round draft choice would have been draconian, but most comments are focusing on the disparities between the disciplinary actions imposed on players and mere assistant head coaches by Goodell as compared to that imposed on the most successful coach of his era.

If the players ever get a union maybe the head of that organization would lead the questioning about this - until then I guess we will settle for hearing Gene Upshaw read whatever talking points the league office gives to him..

rog
09-14-2007, 11:29 AM
Based on most of what I read in what has always been the virulently anti-Pats mainstream media, Goodell may have made one of his first missteps as Commissioner by not suspending Belichick.

]If this was Tagliabue a loss of a 7th round draft choice would have been draconian, but most comments are focusing on the disparities between the disciplinary actions imposed on players and mere assistant head coaches by Goodell as compared to that imposed on the most successful coach of his era.

If the players ever get a union maybe the head of that organization would lead the questioning about this - until then I guess we will settle for hearing Gene Upshaw read whatever talking points the league office gives to him..

Tagliabue would have taken the camera and Belechik would not have got it back until the end of the season.

Hines0wnz
09-14-2007, 11:46 AM
*awaits the "its racist" tirade*

I hate to admit it but that crossed my mind when I first found out about the punishment this morning.

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 11:53 AM
I hate to admit it but that crossed my mind when I first found out about the punishment this morning.

I think it has more to do with the "model franchise" :rolleyes: of the league getting busted at an organizational level (as opposed to an individual player level), the commish being a lapdog who takes his marching orders from the owners, and the owner of said "model franchise" :rolleyes: being one of the more powerful of that group. But, hey, I'm just a "jealous excuse maker," so what do I know? :coffee:

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 12:10 PM
This from known Pats hater Bill Simmons, who I guess would now be described by as one poster here as "a moron" and just one in "a bunch of talking heads (or writing heads) pontificating on something they know little more about than the average fan.":smile:

Definitely check out Paul Zimmerman's Thursday column about the cheating Patriots, maybe the most damning piece about them yet. Even the most ardent Pats fan would have a tough time defending them after this one, although you have to admit it's funny when Dr. Z calls someone else "smug" and "arrogant."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index

Not everyone Bill - one poster here had this reaction to Zimmerman's column

Hmmm all those losers out there latching on to a convenient excuse for their own failings.

Really, the Lions?

Mike Martz really that the offense rolling did he?

Someone stated earlier that they would love to hear what Dungy had to say on this, I doubt we'll ever know - because unlike this group of underachieving dicks, he doesn't have to big himself up in the media (sorta the anti-Hines Ward, if you will).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=19538&page=34

LITP - with Simmons gone, is it just Belichick and you left in the bunker?

If Simmons can give up after giving this initial take on the debacle, there is no shame in you surrendering as well:

Let's see if the story is true before we start calling the Pats "cheaters." I sincerely doubt that Belichick -- one of the most prepared and logical coaches in the league -- would risk losing a draft choice so he could blatantly bastardize the sport by ordering a cameraman to tape the signals of an inferior Jets team. Not only does that seem too improbable, wouldn't it be extraordinarily easy to get caught if you were standing on one sideline with your camera suspiciously pointed right at the opposing coaches? You don't think you'd stand out? Besides, as Mike Nifong taught us, an accusation doesn't mean anything unless it's true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/links


:toofunny:

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 12:16 PM
I think it has more to do with the "model franchise" :rolleyes: of the league getting busted at an organizational level (as opposed to an individual player level), the commish being a lapdog who takes his marching orders from the owners, and the owner of said "model franchise" :rolleyes: being one of the more powerful of that group. But, hey, I'm just a "jealous excuse maker," so what do I know? :coffee:

Michael Wilbon says it best:

Goodell didn't apply the muscle to management he did to labor. He was awfully aggressive (and perhaps justifiably so) with the likes of Chris Henry and Tank Johnson and Adam "Pacman" Jones, but pulled his punch when it came time to fight with one of the fair-haired guys in management.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/13/AR2007091302606_pf.html

Hines0wnz
09-14-2007, 12:23 PM
Would this be (dare I say it) white collar crime vs blue collar crime? :dang:

Hines0wnz
09-14-2007, 12:30 PM
Another in a long line of excuse makers.

Your team sucks in the big game.

Get used to it (well, apart from the bit about actually making it to the big game...)

Parrot squawk, thanks.

I dont blame you for being defensive but making juvenile comments such as this makes you no better than say......having a video man record the opposing teams signals. :wink02: The Pats cheated, they got caught and are now suffering the punishment. As are the fans such as yourself while the knee jerk reactions only certify the classlessness of the organization and its fans. I'm disgusted by this whole affair but I certainly wouldnt stoop to cheap comments just because your team is the assclown of the month.

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 12:33 PM
Would this be (dare I say it) white collar crime vs blue collar crime? :dang:

Dr. Z thinks so:

Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/09/13/cheating/index.html?eref=T1

Hines0wnz
09-14-2007, 12:39 PM
Dr. Z thinks so:

Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/09/13/cheating/index.html?eref=T1


Whoa....and I havent even read that yet. :coffee:

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 01:08 PM
Any guesses as to whether Goodell responds publicly to this?:sofunny:

Cowboys quarterbacks coach Wade Wilson told ESPN's Ed Werder that he intends to write a letter to the league office seeking an explanation for what he considers inconsistent enforcement of NFL policy, and might attempt to determine whether he can appeal his five-game suspension.

"I would say there is definitely a double standard being applied here," Wilson said Friday when reached at his home near the team's practice facility. "I don't want to be seen as a crybaby or as someone questioning the commissioner's decision, but I see some major inconsistencies here.

"To me, they're holding the organization accountable instead of the person." ....

"I did something wrong, but I did it only to benefit myself, not to gain a competitive advantage," Wilson said. "I accepted my punishment and moved on, but this is kind of a different deal. The percentage of my salary that I was fined is substantially more than the percentage he was fined as far as I can tell. I mean, $500,000 is nothing to laugh at -- but neither is $100,000. The punishment is definitely not the same in my opinion."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

IMO Wilson would not have said this without giving Jerry Jones a heads up first

CantStop85
09-14-2007, 01:45 PM
What's new? Goodell has been inconsistent with his disciplinary procedures from the start...this incident just brings the issue to the forefront.

rbryan
09-14-2007, 02:11 PM
We'll see soon enough how much this effected the games. Now that thier dirty little secret is out, teams will put a lot more emphasis on changing up for the patsies. (Although its hard to say whether or not this will stop them from cheating. Maybe Bill the "Genius" will take me up on that zoom lense idea. "Film the defensive signals from an obsure spot in the stands instead of ten feet away on the other teams sideline?? BRILLIANT!!!!)

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 02:18 PM
We'll see soon enough how much this effected the games. Now that thier dirty little secret is out, teams will put a lot more emphasis on changing up for the patsies. (Although its hard to say whether or not this will stop them from cheating. Maybe Bill the "Genius" will take me up on that zoom lense idea. "Film the defensive signals from an obsure spot in the stands instead of ten feet away on the other teams sideline?? BRILLIANT!!!!)

If I'm a visiting coach in Foxboro, I would INSIST that the headsets my staff uses are MY team's headsets, not the Patriots'.

Borski
09-14-2007, 02:28 PM
I would assume the headsets are radio, all someone would have to do is change to the station that they are set on to hear all the plays.

rbryan
09-14-2007, 02:32 PM
I've always wondered about the headsets/communication systems used. How hard can it be to tap the line??

I agree that wouldn't want to use any other teams system, let alone the cheatin patsies.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 05:11 PM
And worship at the Belidick altar.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=293920#post293920

:chuckle:

looks like fans are showing up for the worship service/ candlelight vigil already.

word has it the altar was forged by the coach bill's bare hands (and a buttload of vaseline).

shevdog
09-14-2007, 05:54 PM
I really wonder how long this has been going on with the Patsies.

I demand their lame claim of a "dynasty" be removed!

True dynasties don't cheat!

BozMan
09-14-2007, 05:55 PM
I would assume the headsets are radio, all someone would have to do is change to the station that they are set on to hear all the plays.

Wasn't there another issue that came out of the Pats-Jets game? Something about what radio frequencies the Pats were using? I have a suspicion that videotaping the other teams' signals is not the only infraction Belicheat & Co. are guilty of.

From Mortensen's original ESPN.com article breaking this story (still can't post links):

The league also is investigating some radio frequency issues that occurred during the game.

NV STEELERS 723
09-14-2007, 07:20 PM
All my STEELER brothers and sisters made great points on this headline.....We have a ton of satisfaction now when it comes to a conversation of how dominating the Pats and Cheating Bill are.......

A Cheater will always get caught!

Steel Warrior
09-14-2007, 08:39 PM
Everything the Pats have accomplished now has a dark cloud hanging over it. Nobody knows how long the "genius'" has been cheating. I have been always impressed how Brady can move a team on a final drive and win the game, guess it doesn't hurt to know what D you're gonna get.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-14-2007, 08:44 PM
Dungy's comments - -

Now, Colts coach Tony Dungy is speaking out regarding the "Patriots Act" controversy, and he directed some significant criticism at coach Bill Belichick.

"We seem to have tarnished Barry Bonds," Dungy said on Friday, noting that Belichick's success could similarly be questioned. "We've pointed out that, even though he's a great player and he's hit a lot of home runs, because of what some people that work around him have done, it seems to have tarnished him in the court of public opinion. We'll see.

"Really, sad day for the NFL," Dungy added. "It's another case of the 99 percent good things that are happening being overshadowed by one percent bad. Again, people aren't talking about our product, they're talking about a negative incident."

Dungy also said that Patriots owner Bob Kraft will constantly face scrutiny as a result of the situation.

"He's going to have to answer questions all the time, from here on out," Dungy said. "When headsets go wrong, he's going to have to answer if it's something that just happened or is this planned. There's bad grass everywhere, but when the grass doesn't grow up there, he's going to be asked about it, and that's too bad."

Should be interesting

:cheers::cheers::cheers: - Tony
New England Super Bowl Champs*

* = Sham

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-14-2007, 09:09 PM
Yes it's from profootball.com but I do like their analogy of Beli-cheats "apology"

BELICHICK APOLOGIZES FOR "MISTAKE"

In a statement regarding the punishment imposed by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell on the Patriots and coach Bill Belichick, Belichick describes the incident as a "mistake." (The entire statement currently appears on the entry page to the team's official site.)

Specifically, Belichick said: "I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused."

Folks, it wasn't a "mistake." A "mistake" is forgetting to ask the waitress to hold the mayo. This was a way of life, and we're convinced based on everything we've heard over the past three days that it went on for years. And years.

We had the same reaction to Michael Vick's apology. Use of the term "mistake" implies that the action was not consistent with the person's character. In both cases, we believe that the actions are proof of character, specifically the lack thereof.

Belichick also explains that he has "never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress." Even if that's true, so what? This statement implies that the competitive advantage would have been obtained the next time the Patriots faced the same team or one of the coaches involved in the game, since coaches tend to move around and might use the same signals in the future.

Either way, creating and using the video is cheating.

Belichick offered up the distinction to support his position that his "mistake" came from an "interpretation" of a rule that ended up being "incorrect." The rule in question, per the NFL's release regarding the punishment, states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Apparently, Belichick believes that the phrase "during the game" means that it's okay to record defensive signals as long as the video isn't used "during the game" in which the video is made.

With all due respect, that's a crock.

As if the rule isn't clear enough, the league explained it in a September 6, 2006 memo to all teams as follows: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

If Belichick thought that this memo conflicted in any way with his "interpretation" of the rule, Belichick should have asked someone in the league office about it. Belichick probably realizes how dumb the question would have sounded.

It would have sounded almost as dumb as his current explanation.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 09:44 PM
belichick is the dumbest coach ever. (well maybe hes smarter than dave shula)

so i guess with goodells hardened stance, hes gonna allow the patriots to use the tape of signals they gathered in san diego last january?

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Dungy's comments - -

Now, Colts coach Tony Dungy is speaking out regarding the "Patriots Act" controversy, and he directed some significant criticism at coach Bill Belichick.

"We seem to have tarnished Barry Bonds," Dungy said on Friday, noting that Belichick's success could similarly be questioned. "We've pointed out that, even though he's a great player and he's hit a lot of home runs, because of what some people that work around him have done, it seems to have tarnished him in the court of public opinion. We'll see.

"Really, sad day for the NFL," Dungy added. "It's another case of the 99 percent good things that are happening being overshadowed by one percent bad. Again, people aren't talking about our product, they're talking about a negative incident."

Dungy also said that Patriots owner Bob Kraft will constantly face scrutiny as a result of the situation.

"He's going to have to answer questions all the time, from here on out," Dungy said. "When headsets go wrong, he's going to have to answer if it's something that just happened or is this planned. There's bad grass everywhere, but when the grass doesn't grow up there, he's going to be asked about it, and that's too bad."

Should be interesting

:cheers::cheers::cheers: - Tony
New England Super Bowl Champs*

* = Sham

I wonder if the poster who had this to say about Dungy yesterday cares to issue a retraction?

Someone stated earlier that they would love to hear what Dungy had to say on this, I doubt we'll ever know - because unlike this group of underachieving dicks, he doesn't have to big himself up in the media (sorta the anti-Hines Ward, if you will).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=19538&page=34

Guess again:toofunny:

fansince'76
09-14-2007, 10:09 PM
I wonder if the poster who had this to say about Dungy yesterday cares to issue a retraction?

Someone stated earlier that they would love to hear what Dungy had to say on this, I doubt we'll ever know - because unlike this group of underachieving dicks, he doesn't have to big himself up in the media (sorta the anti-Hines Ward, if you will).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=19538&page=34

Guess again:toofunny:

Doubtful - Dungy's just another "jealous hater," even though Dungy has now beaten Brainiac the last 3 times in a row (twice in Foxboro) and counting.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 10:13 PM
I wonder if the poster who had this to say about Dungy yesterday cares to issue a retraction?

Someone stated earlier that they would love to hear what Dungy had to say on this, I doubt we'll ever know - because unlike this group of underachieving dicks, he doesn't have to big himself up in the media (sorta the anti-Hines Ward, if you will).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=19538&page=34

Guess again:toofunny::chuckle:

i was thinking about this in the morning when i heard a chris mortenson report. he said "and to all those who believe everybody is doing this they can ask tony dungy".

it must be "sour grapes" left over from last years humiliating meltdown and afcc game loss.

or maybe its just the TRUTH. i tend to believe the NON-CHEATER.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-14-2007, 10:42 PM
I wonder if the poster who had this to say about Dungy yesterday cares to issue a retraction?

Someone stated earlier that they would love to hear what Dungy had to say on this, I doubt we'll ever know - because unlike this group of underachieving dicks, he doesn't have to big himself up in the media (sorta the anti-Hines Ward, if you will).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=19538&page=34

Guess again:toofunny:

Yep that was me who couldn't wait to hear Dungy's comments. Hmmm let me guess who make the underachieving dicks comment could it have been LITP?

***New England Patriots

***Super Bowl = Sham

***Bill Bellicheat - I'm not a crook it was all a ahem "mistake" :toofunny:

jjpro11
09-14-2007, 11:16 PM
its interesting to hear some of their former opponents speak out on how dumbfounded they were at the pats game planning and halftime adjustments. i wish if some of it were true that someone who knows about it would speak out on it.. hell i wouldnt care if they wrote a book and profited from ratting. it would do us all good to know the truth, if there even is one.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-14-2007, 11:34 PM
Some very interesting reading -

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-thegameface091407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

The Gameface: Sandlot boys
By Michael Silver, Yahoo! Sports
September 14, 2007

Michael Silver
Yahoo! Sports
Just before halftime of last Sunday's game between the New York Jets and New England Patriots at Giants Stadium, a slight, unassuming man in a dark blue Pats polo shirt and khaki shorts was stopped by NFL security officials as he tried to enter the visitors' locker room. Suddenly, a 26-year-old video assistant named Matt Estrella found himself in a scene that might have been lifted from "The Bourne Ultimatum."

Suspected of having filmed hand signals from Jets' coaches while standing on that team's sideline, Estrella was interrogated in the bowels of the stadium by Jets and NFL security officials. New Jersey state troopers and FBI agents were also summoned. Mike Tannenbaum, the Jets' general manager, left his seat during the second half and entered the fray, sternly lecturing Estrella about his apparent violation of NFL rules.

At one point, somebody brought Estrella a glass of water. He was shaking so hard that he spilled it all over himself. For all we know, that wasn't the only liquid that ended up on Estrella's person during the hour-long grilling.

Congratulations, Bill Belichick and Eric Mangini: your petty, childish little feud just made a member of the hired help wet his pants.

Now that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has come down hard on Belichick and the Patriots, fining the coach $500,000 and docking the organization $250,000 and a first-round NFL draft pick (if New England makes the playoffs) or second- and third-round choices in 2008, we can all sit back and condemn him for blatantly cheating in the pursuit of a competitive edge. Some people, including a few current members of the Philadelphia Eagles, are even questioning whether the Pats' three Super Bowl victories in the previous six seasons are tainted by this behavior.

It's a public relations nightmare for an organization that has been mostly classy and commendable in creating the 21st century's first mini-dynasty, but focusing on the potential advantage New England gained from the stolen signals is missing the point.

The people who've truly been cheated are those in the Patriots' organization – and their counterparts among the Mangini-coached Jets – who've been subjected to this consuming and unbecoming sandbox fight between two shrewd yet self-absorbed coaches.

If you don't think Sunday's bust was a setup (granted, a well-deserved one), you're not looking closely enough. Belichick ordered an employee to engage in a practice that Mangini knew all about, as it had been commonplace during his time as Belichick's defensive coordinator and defensive backs coach in New England. Anyone with a brain, let alone a brainiac like Belichick, would realize that videotaping an opponent's coaches in that particular context was a disaster waiting to happen. Arrogantly and blatantly, Belichick did it anyway, operating under the Clintonesque rationale that because he wasn't breaking down opposing coaches' signals until after the completion of the game in question, he wasn't violating any rules. I did not view tape from that camera (until later, when I used it for future signal-stealing reference.) So Slick Billy was there for the taking, and Mangini took down his former mentor, and hard, while watching his team suffer a 38-14 defeat.

Lest you think this was some random occurrence, consider the incestuous connections between the two organizations:

• The Jets' video director, Steve Scarnecchia, formerly worked for the Patriots' video department. Sources say he once had the same duties that landed Estrella in spilled water last Sunday and that Scarnecchia was the one who trained Estrella to clandestinely compile the verboten footage in the first place. Oh, and Scarnecchia's father, Dante, is New England's longtime offensive line coach and has been Belichick's assistant head coach since 2000. Theirs should be a whale of a Thanksgiving dinner.

• Another Jets employee, coordinator of college scouting Jay Mandolesi, was an intern in the Patriots' video department in 2002 and '03. Sources say he was fired after a dispute with then offensive coordinator Charlie Weis, possibly over similar video subterfuge.

• Tannenbaum and his Patriots counterpart, vice president of player personnel Scott Pioli, were once close friends, having previously worked together in Cleveland and with the Jets. Their relationship is now frayed.

How did all of this happen? How did Belichick, probably the greatest defensive strategist of his era and a future Hall of Fame coach, allow one of his prodigies to distract him from the task at hand and make him look like a fool?

It goes back to the end of the 2005 season, when the Jets were courting Mangini as a replacement for departed coach Herm Edwards. Belichick, who as the Browns' head coach in '95 had given his fellow Wesleyan alum an assistant's job after having noticed Mangini's work as a public relations intern, had a deep-seated disdain for the Jets' organization dating back to his infamous one-day stint as New York's head coach following Bill Parcells's resignation in January of 2000.

Go be a head coach anywhere but there, Belichick told his then-34-year-old defensive coordinator. There'll be other opportunities, and I'll help you get them, Belichick insisted. Just don't take this one.

(CON'T)

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-14-2007, 11:34 PM
(con't)

Mangini took the job anyway, and Belichick felt betrayed. When Belichick learned that Mangini, while still serving out his final days with the Patriots, was soliciting Pats coaches, support staff members and players to join him at his new gig, the war was on. Belichick had Mangini's key card access revoked, but not before Mangini, a source says, took a laptop with confidential files stored in its hard drive out of the building. Mangini hired a Pats employee, Erin O'Brien, as his administrative assistant.

"He did exactly what Bill would do in the same situation," says one high-ranking league source who knows both men. "Bill raised him too well."

Whereas Belichick remained on good terms with ex-assistants Romeo Crennel, who took the Cleveland job, and Nick Saban, who went to the division rival Dolphins, Mangini was persona non grata the second he went to the dreaded Jets. Worse, the Patriots believed, star wideout Deion Branch felt empowered to hold out before the 2006 season because he'd been told by Mangini that the Jets sought his services at the price he desired.

Last August, when the Patriots gave Branch a week to negotiate with other teams in pursuit of a possible trade, the Jets were one of two franchises, along with the Seahawks, who made big-money offers. Branch was ultimately traded to Seattle, and the Patriots filed tampering charges against the Jets, who were later cleared by the league of wrongdoing.

The bad blood between Belichick and Mangini was evident after each of the two teams' regular season meetings in '06. First, following a 24-17 Pats victory at Giants Stadium, Belichick refused to look at Mangini during their brief handshake at midfield. Two months later, after the Jets pulled off a 17-14 upset at Gillette Stadium, Belichick tried a similar tack before Mangini grabbed his arm and gloated, "Great job!"

In January, after the Pats eliminated the Jets from the playoffs by a 37-16 score, Belichick shoved a photographer out of the way to get to Mangini and gave his former assistant what appeared to be a showboating, insincere hug.

After the season Mangini hired Brian Daboll, the Pats' wide receivers coach the previous five seasons, as his quarterbacks coach, compelling Belichick's staff to change much of its terminology over the offseason.

The gamesmanship continued before the start of the '07 season when Mangini brought in two players, wideout Reche Caldwell and cornerback Artrell Hawkins, who'd just been released by New England, a move some believed was little more than a ploy to pick the players' brains about the upcoming opponent's plays and terminology. The Pats countered by bringing in wideout Tim Dwight, who'd just been released by the Jets.

What went down on Sunday, of course, escalated this hissing match to a much darker place. Now that Mangini has made him the object of national embarrassment ? and taken a $500,000 chunk out of his bank account ? how should Belichick retaliate?

Here's how: Stop the madness. Take the high road. Start focusing on what he does best ? coming up with brilliant game plans, picking the best players for his system and motivating them to perform at the highest level ? and let go of a grudge that is totally beneath a coach of his stature.

When I hear about Mangini's paranoia, the secrecy over injuries, the threats of fining players whom he suspects of having given anonymous quotes or whose agents comment publicly about their clients' ailments, I think, "What a bunch of wasted energy." But I also can somewhat forgive him: He's young, and he thinks that by emulating Belichick in these ways he'll be destined for the same kind of towering success. Or perhaps he just got caught up in his "Mangenius" nickname and the guest turn on The Sopranos. Whatever: He's 36, and hopefully he'll grow up in the years to come.

Belichick is 55, and even though he's smarter than a fifth grader, he's acting like one. I've been a fan of his work from way, way back, through the post-Browns days when he was considered a classic head coaching washout, and despite his media-repellent ways we've had a good relationship for a long time. I want to see him enjoy the fruits of his labor and the legacy he has earned through hard work and exceptional acumen; I don't want to see him pushing photographers or revoking key cards or, worst of all, getting popped for cheating because he seemingly believed he could do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted, no matter who was watching.

Well, Little Brother was watching, and now he's laughing at Belichick because he's gotten so far under his skin.

Belichick may think it was the height of hypocrisy, not to mention an ungrateful maneuver by a guy who owes him a career, and he might be right. It doesn't matter.

As a very smart coach has often said, it is what it is.

And now, gentlemen, it's time to let it go.

tony hipchest
09-14-2007, 11:38 PM
its interesting to hear some of their former opponents speak out on how dumbfounded they were at the pats game planning and halftime adjustments. i wish if some of it were true that someone who knows about it would speak out on it.. hell i wouldnt care if they wrote a book and profited from ratting. it would do us all good to know the truth, if there even is one.well, the truth is pretty simple. tha patriots are cheaters. and it is true that there is no way tom brady (or any other teammates, especially including bruschi), can prove he didnt benefit from that, or sharing a needle with r. harrison or t. saurebrun.

Preacher
09-15-2007, 12:01 AM
Oh the Drama between Mangini and Belicheat.

I don't care. Belicheat was caught. He is guilty. Period. If it is so prevalent... then stop more workers with more video tapes.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-15-2007, 12:10 AM
now we turn our thoughts to the **superbowls..

SUPER BOWL WINS ARE CALLED INTO QUESTION

Now that the book has been closed (apparently) on the whole Pats video thing, it's time to ponder the question of whether any of the trio of three-point wins in Super Bowls XXXXVI, XXXVIII, and XXXIX were the result of any type of cheating.

As to the Eagles in Super Bowl XXXIX, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2004 season, some of the players think that the answer could be yes. "I was giving them a whole bunch of credit for making halftime adjustments. . . . It's troublesome," safety Brian Dawkins said on Thursday. "I don't know how different to say it -- it bothers me."

As to the Panthers in Super Bowl XXXVIII, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2003 season, there are rumblings of skullduggery occurring not based on halftime adjustments, but on pregame planning. "Some sources within the team's Bank of America Stadium facilities said there were rumblings that the Patriots might have filmed at least two of Carolina's practices in the week leading into the Super Bowl after the 2003 season," writes Pat Yasinskas of the Charlotte Observer.

http://www.charlotte.com/sports/story/277261.html

Former Panthers defensive tackle Brentson Buckner hinted at such suspicions during a Friday appearance on the Mac Attack on WFNZ in Charlotte.

"I know in that Super Bowl game . . . we worked on some stuff that we had never ran against Tom Brady," Buckner said. "We got in that game and he called out everything that we did. . . . It makes you wonder about the knowledge that Tom Brady and those guys [had] because they literally in plays knew where you were going."

As to the Rams in Super Bowl XXXVI, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2001 season, the manner in which that game unfolded could raise questions as to whether the Pats acquired advance knowledge via questionable means. Through two quarters, the Pats held the Greatest Show-Offs on Turf to a measly three points, their lowest first-half output of the season.

As to any of the three Super Bowls, there's always a chance that someone will eventually spill the beans (if there are beans to spill), and the climate that has been created in the wake of this week's events could be enough to get someone to turn the bag of beans upside down, and shake the hell out of it.

If that happens, it makes Belichick's decision to continue to risk getting caught when it was clear that his former lieutenant was looking to catch him seem even more stupid.

**Super Bowls = sham

tony hipchest
09-15-2007, 12:24 AM
now we turn our thoughts to the **superbowls..

SUPER BOWL WINS ARE CALLED INTO QUESTION

Now that the book has been closed (apparently) on the whole Pats video thing, it's time to ponder the question of whether any of the trio of three-point wins in Super Bowls XXXXVI, XXXVIII, and XXXIX were the result of any type of cheating.

As to the Eagles in Super Bowl XXXIX, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2004 season, some of the players think that the answer could be yes. "I was giving them a whole bunch of credit for making halftime adjustments. . . . It's troublesome," safety Brian Dawkins said on Thursday. "I don't know how different to say it -- it bothers me."

As to the Panthers in Super Bowl XXXVIII, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2003 season, there are rumblings of skullduggery occurring not based on halftime adjustments, but on pregame planning. "Some sources within the team's Bank of America Stadium facilities said there were rumblings that the Patriots might have filmed at least two of Carolina's practices in the week leading into the Super Bowl after the 2003 season," writes Pat Yasinskas of the Charlotte Observer.

http://www.charlotte.com/sports/story/277261.html

Former Panthers defensive tackle Brentson Buckner hinted at such suspicions during a Friday appearance on the Mac Attack on WFNZ in Charlotte.

"I know in that Super Bowl game . . . we worked on some stuff that we had never ran against Tom Brady," Buckner said. "We got in that game and he called out everything that we did. . . . It makes you wonder about the knowledge that Tom Brady and those guys [had] because they literally in plays knew where you were going."

As to the Rams in Super Bowl XXXVI, whom the Patriots beat by a field goal to cap the 2001 season, the manner in which that game unfolded could raise questions as to whether the Pats acquired advance knowledge via questionable means. Through two quarters, the Pats held the Greatest Show-Offs on Turf to a measly three points, their lowest first-half output of the season.

As to any of the three Super Bowls, there's always a chance that someone will eventually spill the beans (if there are beans to spill), and the climate that has been created in the wake of this week's events could be enough to get someone to turn the bag of beans upside down, and shake the hell out of it.

If that happens, it makes Belichick's decision to continue to risk getting caught when it was clear that his former lieutenant was looking to catch him seem even more stupid.

**Super Bowls = shamall the patfans have hung their hat on the patriots "greatness" and desire to be recognized as a "dynasty" on what belichick was able to "accomplish" in this current era of parity and free agency.

boy, are they suckers!

:toofunny: - SUCKERS!

Preacher
09-15-2007, 12:46 AM
all the patfans have hung their hat on the patriots "greatness" and desire to be recognized as a "dynasty" on what belichick was able to "accomplish" in this current era of parity and free agency.

boy, are they suckers!

:toofunny: - SUCKERS!

Funniest thing... they actually thought they were in the same league as the Steelers of the 70's. Heck, there is a good chance they weren't even in the same league as the Steelers of the 2000's.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-15-2007, 01:27 AM
:yawn: New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft has issued a statement regarding the events of the past several days, which culminated in a $500,000 fine against coach Bill Belichick, a $250,000 fine against the organization, and the loss of either a first-round draft pick or a second-round or a third-round selection. Here's the full text of it:

"This has been an extremely difficult week for our organization. :flap: The most troubling part for me, personally, is the impact these actions have had on our fans. We have spent the last 14 years developing and building a franchise that people could embrace and support. The loyalty of our fans has been the most rewarding aspect of owning the team. I am deeply disappointed that the embarrassing events of this past week may cause some people to see our team in a different light. :toofunny:

After reviewing the facts of the past weekend, the commissioner has made a determination that our franchise engaged in activities that violate the league's rules. (YA THINK!) He has determined the punishment and I accept it.

"I believe that Coach Belichick always tries to do what is best for the team and he is always accountable for his decisions. He has been a very important part of what our organization has accomplished over the last seven years. In this case, one of his decisions has resulted in a severe penalty for our franchise. He has paid a heavy price and so has our organization. He has apologized for his actions. I accept his apology and look forward to working with him as we move forward.

"It has been a distinct privilege to be involved in the National Football League since 1994. I am passionate about the league because it represents the ultimate in competition. To this end, the integrity of the game and competition between the 32 teams is of paramount importance to me. Whenever the commissioner believes that the integrity of the league’s competition is compromised, he must act decisively to protect it.

"In addition to our fans, I also feel for our players. I know how hard our players work and prepare for every game and their accomplishments speak for themselves. I look forward to returning all of our focus and energy to the field." ( I have yet to hear anyone in this organization apologize to the NFL teams and fans. Talk about arrogance oh oh that's right it was all a "mistake" )

The third paragraph of the statement should quiet speculation that Kraft will be the one to suspend Belichick, supplementing the penalty imposed by the Commissioner. And, as we see it, that's unfortunate. The absence of a punishment from the team potentially creates the impression that either ownership knew about the tactics, and didn't know -- and don't care.

The more we think about it, the more we believe that a suspension would have been appropriate. Even if it would have been a hollow gesture in the days leading up to the preparation for the game, it would have been a powerful symbolic gesture, which might have quieted the chorus of criticism arising from the decision not to suspend Belichick.

dragtruk
09-15-2007, 08:01 AM
He got a $500,000 fine (which I'm sure Kraft will pick up for him). The Pats org got $250,000, and they lost a first round draft pick. Guess his Jersey girl will have to pay her own way for a little while.

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2007, 08:46 AM
Arguing Mangini is a big part of the problem here is like saying it is time for P-Funk and Q to make up with Ookie - is Silver saying Mangini should have written a letter to Goodell to ask Belichick to pretty please cut it out?

Look for a lot of this as the Pats try to deflect blame.

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2007, 08:49 AM
Arguing Mangini is a big part of the problem here is like saying it is time for P-Funk and Q to make up with Ookie - is Silver saying Mangini should have written a letter to Goodell to ask Belichick to pretty please cut it out?

HometownGal
09-15-2007, 08:58 AM
:yawn: New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft has issued a statement regarding the events of the past several days, which culminated in a $500,000 fine against coach Bill Belichick, a $250,000 fine against the organization, and the loss of either a first-round draft pick or a second-round or a third-round selection. Here's the full text of it:

"This has been an extremely difficult week for our organization. :flap: The most troubling part for me, personally, is the impact these actions have had on our fans. We have spent the last 14 years developing and building a franchise that people could embrace and support. The loyalty of our fans has been the most rewarding aspect of owning the team. I am deeply disappointed that the embarrassing events of this past week may cause some people to see our team in a different light. :toofunny:

After reviewing the facts of the past weekend, the commissioner has made a determination that our franchise engaged in activities that violate the league's rules. (YA THINK!) He has determined the punishment and I accept it.

"I believe that Coach Belichick always tries to do what is best for the team and he is always accountable for his decisions. He has been a very important part of what our organization has accomplished over the last seven years. In this case, one of his decisions has resulted in a severe penalty for our franchise. He has paid a heavy price and so has our organization. He has apologized for his actions. I accept his apology and look forward to working with him as we move forward.

"It has been a distinct privilege to be involved in the National Football League since 1994. I am passionate about the league because it represents the ultimate in competition. To this end, the integrity of the game and competition between the 32 teams is of paramount importance to me. Whenever the commissioner believes that the integrity of the league?s competition is compromised, he must act decisively to protect it.

"In addition to our fans, I also feel for our players. I know how hard our players work and prepare for every game and their accomplishments speak for themselves. I look forward to returning all of our focus and energy to the field." ( I have yet to hear anyone in this organization apologize to the NFL teams and fans. Talk about arrogance oh oh that's right it was all a "mistake" )

The third paragraph of the statement should quiet speculation that Kraft will be the one to suspend Belichick, supplementing the penalty imposed by the Commissioner. And, as we see it, that's unfortunate. The absence of a punishment from the team potentially creates the impression that either ownership knew about the tactics, and didn't know -- and don't care.

The more we think about it, the more we believe that a suspension would have been appropriate. Even if it would have been a hollow gesture in the days leading up to the preparation for the game, it would have been a powerful symbolic gesture, which might have quieted the chorus of criticism arising from the decision not to suspend Belichick.

Oh God - cry me a river. :crying01::crying01: Kraft is as arrogant as Belidick. They are so concerned with how their precious bandwagon Patsie fans are reacting, but give a shit less about how their actions (and I'm convinced now more than ever that Kraft knew what that peckerhead was doing) have jaded the integrity of the game. I hope the fans from every opponent whose stadiums the Pats visit this year express their outrage over the slap on the wrist Belidick and Kraft received.

NV STEELERS 723
09-15-2007, 09:20 AM
He got a $500,000 fine (which I'm sure Kraft will pick up for him). The Pats org got $250,000, and they lost a first round draft pick. Guess his Jersey girl will have to pay her own way for a little while.

The pats lose a 1st round pick if they make the playoffs this year...if they don't make the playoffs I think they lose their 2nd, and 3rd round picks next year...

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-15-2007, 10:20 AM
Vic Carucci still a Pat's butt licker :blah::blah::blah: Even Al Roker is getting in on the action :sofunny:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80257bfa&template=without-video&confirm=true

Pats? ?videogate? doesn?t diminish Super success
Vic Carucci
By Vic Carucci | NFL.com

This is not a defense of Bill Belichick's NFL crime.

He broke a rule. He deserved and received stiff punishment. He has brought an onslaught of ridicule from all directions, in and out of the league, to himself and the entire New England Patriots' organization.

Example: No sooner did I turn on my television early this morning to a local wake-up show when I heard the station's feature reporter, while introducing a segment that had nothing to do with football or sports, use part of his brief air time to call the Patriots' coach Bill "Beli-cheat." Later, Al Roker took a jab of his own at Belichick when giving the weather forecast on NBC's Today's Show for the Patriots-Chargers game which will be seen on the network's Sept. 16 broadcast of Sunday Night Football.

That's to be expected.

What I don't buy are assertions that I have read and heard elsewhere in the media that Belichick's assigning a team employee to videotape defensive hand-signals from the New York Jets' sidelines on Sept. 9 somehow discredits the Patriots' three Super Bowl victories.

And here are five reasons why they are ridiculous and baseless:

>Tom Brady: Belichick's keen eye for talent landed the Patriots one of the best quarterbacks in the league -- some would say the best -- in the sixth round. Brady's success has nothing to do with cheating. He is an extremely intelligent and extraordinarily talented athlete who has made the most of his skills with a tremendous work ethic and drive. That is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Assistant coaches: Belichick has assembled some of the greatest coaching staffs the NFL has ever seen. Was there a better offensive coordinator than Charlie Weis? Was there a better defensive coordinator than Romeo Crennel? Eric Mangini, the former Patriot defensive coordinator and current Jets coach that blew the whistle on his former boss, was a fine defensive coordinator as well. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Roster management: The Patriots have set the league standard for the ability to maintain a highly competitive team while still remaining comfortably under the salary cap. Belichick has done it by building a roster of players who are comfortable with putting the team ahead of individual accomplishments. Besides doing an excellent job of cultivating home-grown talent, he has found relatively low-cost gems in free agency that have made huge contributions. As a result, there was additional cap room for the big spending done during the past offseason. And Belichick has no problem with parting ways with players who don't conform to the team-first concept, which was what made the controversial acquisition of Randy Moss a stroke of genius. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Defensive schemes: The Patriots' forte on defense is in-game adjustments. It is mostly contouring the scheme to what the opposing offense actually does during a game rather than relying so much on the anticipation of what it will do. The approach had plenty to do with the Pats' Super Bowl wins and was also a large part of the reason that the game plan Belichick, as defensive coordinator of the New York Giants, used to help beat the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV wound up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Special teams: The Patriots were a trend-setter in having no reluctance to include several key starters on special teams. It sent a clear message to the entire squad of the importance of the kicking game. And that, too, is a tribute to Belichick's great football mind, not deviousness.

HometownGal
09-15-2007, 10:29 AM
And here are five reasons why they are ridiculous and baseless:

>Tom Brady: Belichick's keen eye for talent landed the Patriots one of the best quarterbacks in the league -- some would say the best -- in the sixth round. Brady's success has nothing to do with cheating. He is an extremely intelligent and extraordinarily talented athlete who has made the most of his skills with a tremendous work ethic and drive. That is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Assistant coaches: Belichick has assembled some of the greatest coaching staffs the NFL has ever seen. Was there a better offensive coordinator than Charlie Weis? Was there a better defensive coordinator than Romeo Crennel? Eric Mangini, the former Patriot defensive coordinator and current Jets coach that blew the whistle on his former boss, was a fine defensive coordinator as well. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Roster management: The Patriots have set the league standard for the ability to maintain a highly competitive team while still remaining comfortably under the salary cap. Belichick has done it by building a roster of players who are comfortable with putting the team ahead of individual accomplishments. Besides doing an excellent job of cultivating home-grown talent, he has found relatively low-cost gems in free agency that have made huge contributions. As a result, there was additional cap room for the big spending done during the past offseason. And Belichick has no problem with parting ways with players who don't conform to the team-first concept, which was what made the controversial acquisition of Randy Moss a stroke of genius. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Defensive schemes: The Patriots' forte on defense is in-game adjustments. It is mostly contouring the scheme to what the opposing offense actually does during a game rather than relying so much on the anticipation of what it will do. The approach had plenty to do with the Pats' Super Bowl wins and was also a large part of the reason that the game plan Belichick, as defensive coordinator of the New York Giants, used to help beat the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV wound up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

? Special teams: The Patriots were a trend-setter in having no reluctance to include several key starters on special teams. It sent a clear message to the entire squad of the importance of the kicking game. And that, too, is a tribute to Belichick's great football mind, not deviousness.

:blah::blah::blah: Let the Belidick knob hobbing begin. :yawn:

dragtruk
09-15-2007, 10:30 AM
Well, I only said that, because as weak as the AL east is, they WILL make the playoffs. Unfortunately.

ShutDown24
09-15-2007, 11:11 AM
This just in! Pat patriot carries a hidden camera on his right eye!

fansince'76
09-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Defensive schemes: The Patriots' forte on defense is in-game adjustments. It is mostly contouring the scheme to what the opposing offense actually does during a game rather than relying so much on the anticipation of what it will do. The approach had plenty to do with the Pats' Super Bowl wins and was also a large part of the reason that the game plan Belichick, as defensive coordinator of the New York Giants, used to help beat the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXV wound up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. That, too, is a tribute to a great football mind, not deviousness.

And all this time, I thought that win for the Giants had more to do with the Giants' offense keeping the ball for almost 45 minutes of that game? :hunch:

JimMac
09-15-2007, 11:17 AM
Tony Cornhole from ESPN had a decent take on this:

The Pat's receive NO penalty for the infraction THIS season. Even though the infraction was THIS season. Wouldn't a more fair penalty to be lose the game they were caught cheating on?

Livinginthe past
09-15-2007, 11:25 AM
Ahhh..finally the members of the mass media back away from knee jerk reactions designed to pacify the jealous bitter fans from other teams.

Vic Carucci, I salute your common sense and your ability to rise above satisfying the lowest common denominator. :salute:

BlastFurnace
09-15-2007, 11:46 AM
Ahhh..finally the members of the mass media back away from knee jerk reactions designed to pacify the jealous bitter fans from other teams.

Vic Carucci, I salute your common sense and your ability to rise above satisfying the lowest common denominator. :salute:

No one is jealous of a team or franchise where every single title evokes the same feeling as the Barry Bonds Home Run title.

Goodell chickened out on what he should have done. If he is going to suspend a QB coach in Dallas for 4 games and fine him 1/3 if his salary for personal HGH use, Bellicheck and the Patriots got off easy for violating league rules affecting the competitive balance after being warned. I realize that he was fined the max amount, but the remainder of the punishment is a joke.

But keep lying to yourself...if that makes you feel any better. The rest of the football world looks at all the Patriot titles the same way the Baseball world looks at Bonds.

ShutDown24
09-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Ahhh..finally the members of the mass media back away from knee jerk reactions designed to pacify the jealous bitter fans from other teams.

Vic Carucci, I salute your common sense and your ability to rise above satisfying the lowest common denominator. :salute:

The patriots are the lowest common denominator.

HometownGal
09-15-2007, 11:57 AM
Ahhh..finally the members of the mass media back away from knee jerk reactions designed to pacify the jealous bitter fans from other teams.

Vic Carucci, I salute your common sense and your ability to rise above satisfying the lowest common denominator. :salute:

Have you lost your mind Nigel????

If the Steelers or any other team had done this, you would be firing the poison darts faster than you could blink your eyes.

Knee jerk reactions? :jawdrop: Yeah - we're all sooooo bitter and jealous because we have honorable men coaching our teams and owners who know the meaning of the word "integrity" - not arrogant, self-serving, cheating PRICKS with Napoleon complexes. :coffee:

tony hipchest
09-15-2007, 12:04 PM
wow. the lowest common denominator is so satisfied he offered up a salute. only the lowest common denominator could use his team cheating and thumbing their nose at the integrity of the leage to place himself EVEN HIGHER on a pedestal.

i didnt think that was possible.

patriots = cheaters
3 lombardis = tarnished
frauds = exposed

SteelCityMan786
09-15-2007, 12:47 PM
wow. the lowest common denominator is so satisfied he offered up a salute. only the lowest common denominator could use his team cheating and thumbing their nose at the integrity of the leage to place himself EVEN HIGHER on a pedestal.

i didnt think that was possible.

patriots = cheaters
3 lombardis = tarnished
frauds = exposed

Maybe they can pull an NCAA.

tony hipchest
09-15-2007, 01:12 PM
Vic Carucci, I salute your common sense and your ability to rise above satisfying the lowest common denominator. :salute:hey litp, hate to bust your bubble (yet again) but your boy vic, and his infinite wisdom and common sense spoke of the jets and browns in the same breath in his latest rankings:

NEED WORK
(Listed alphabetically)

Atlanta Falcons (0-1)
Cleveland Browns (0-1)
Kansas City Chiefs (0-1)
Miami Dolphins (0-1)
New York Jets (0-1)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers (0-1)


:toofunny: didnt you "admonish" me for doing the same? :busted:

tough crowd, that afc east. :rolleyes: imagine how tough it would be if the pacheatriots werent hopped up on juice.

tony hipchest
09-15-2007, 01:39 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/09/14/mailbag/index.html

I'm hearing the same thing from the New England mail baggers that I heard during the Nixon Watergate hearings:

• What's the big deal? In politics everybody does it.

• You bleeding-heart liberals are trying to bring down a great American.

• So what would they really find out anyway? What's the competitive advantage? You still have to go out and get elected.

Before I get into those cop-outs, I mean, those seriously expressed thoughts, let me mention something a bit more apropos. The Punishment. Also known as the Judgment, or The Sentence. Boy are the Patriots' wrists gonna hurt. That was some slap that Sheriff Goodell gave them.


Rob of Boston (very aptly named, in lieu of the situation) -- "The only arrogance is you and national media. The Patriots are smart to tape the defensive coaches, and the other teams are dumb if they're not doing the same thing."

We're not the only arrogant ones, just part of many. The other teams might be dumb, but they don't have to give up a No. 1 draft pick. I'll bet you suffered during the Watergate hearings.


Mike of Eau Claire, Pa. -- Does this keep Belichick out of the Hall of Fame? Hell of a question. There is going to be a really ferocious debate some day when his name comes up. Your faithful narrator, however, will not be there to report it to you. He'll be listening to the harps and trying to decide what to have with lunch, the '45 Margaux or the '47 Cheval Blanc.



:chuckle: so i guess zimmerman is another hall of fame voter?

tony hipchest
09-15-2007, 02:12 PM
lol. this article is priceless:

PAPER *PATS
BELICHICK HAS FOREVER ADDED AN ASTERISK TO FOOTBALL LEGACY

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152007/sports/paper__pats.htm

September 15, 2007 -- THE hoodie now fits better than it ever has for Bill Belichick, who ought to tug that hood over his head in an effort to hide his face in shame, the way the nabbed perps on the TV evening news do while being led from the squad car to the station.

.....

Don't be stunned if this isn't the beginning of a divorce between Belichick and the public-relations conscious Kraft, who has already had issues with the way Belichick portrays himself publicly and the way he cloaks his players from the fans via his stringent media policies.

If you're thinking Kraft might pick up that $500,000 fine Belichick incurred, think again. Belichick has shamed the organization so badly he should pick up the $250,000 fine Kraft has to pay the NFL on behalf of the organization.

Don't be surprised if Kraft has decided this is the last straw and parts ways with Belichick after this season. There will likely be an opening inside of Giants Stadium after this season.

.......

At the end of all this, Belichick, who has been made out to be a fool all week as the development unfolded and he was uncomfortably peppered with questions, has embarrassed himself and everyone around him because his arrogance finally caught up to him.

of course the patriots arent gonna fire 'chick for the same reason the titans or bungles wont fire pac man or henry. however there has been thought that 'chick was gearing up for 1 final run. being that he looks like he has aged 5 years in 1 week, he may decide its time for a hiatus. a relaxing tv job might do him well. it would have to be something dull though. perhaps he can co-host with martha stewart. word has it shes a cheater too.

NV STEELERS 723
09-16-2007, 12:23 AM
Have you lost your mind Nigel????

If the Steelers or any other team had done this, you would be firing the poison darts faster than you could blink your eyes.

Knee jerk reactions? :jawdrop: Yeah - we're all sooooo bitter and jealous because we have honorable men coaching our teams and owners who know the meaning of the word "integrity" - not arrogant, self-serving, cheating PRICKS with Napoleon complexes. :coffee:

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

Nigel...take a TO from SF, and regain your respected football opinion here.....because you really have seemed to "lost it"....

Livinginthe past
09-16-2007, 01:42 AM
No one is jealous of a team or franchise where every single title evokes the same feeling as the Barry Bonds Home Run title.

Goodell chickened out on what he should have done. If he is going to suspend a QB coach in Dallas for 4 games and fine him 1/3 if his salary for personal HGH use, Bellicheck and the Patriots got off easy for violating league rules affecting the competitive balance after being warned. I realize that he was fined the max amount, but the remainder of the punishment is a joke.

But keep lying to yourself...if that makes you feel any better. The rest of the football world looks at all the Patriot titles the same way the Baseball world looks at Bonds.

Sure they are.

Goodell did anythign but chicken out - the fact is most fans wont be happy (but they pretend they are) until those SB titles that form the Dynasty are officially taken away - keep dreaming. :wink02:

Livinginthe past
09-16-2007, 01:46 AM
Have you lost your mind Nigel????

If the Steelers or any other team had done this, you would be firing the poison darts faster than you could blink your eyes.

Knee jerk reactions? :jawdrop: Yeah - we're all sooooo bitter and jealous because we have honorable men coaching our teams and owners who know the meaning of the word "integrity" - not arrogant, self-serving, cheating PRICKS with Napoleon complexes. :coffee:

Have I lost my mind?

No.

I've kept mine while others lose theirs in a desperate bid to erase years of underachievement by scapegoating the Patriots.

Thanks for telling me what I would be doing had the situation been different - that hugely enlightening - you should look into making money out of god given talent like that. :thumbsup:

I look at the seething resentment that covers your last paragraph - and realise i've heard it all before - you described Belichick this way before any of the cameragate stuff arose.

To me that says jealousy.

Plain and simple.

Preacher
09-16-2007, 01:54 AM
Nigel...

Nope... HTG and others simply show good football sense. We knew that the Patriots weren't good enough to do what they did... We knew the coach wasn't good enough to coach the way he did. 2+2 was equaling 5...

now we know why.

Livinginthe past
09-16-2007, 01:56 AM
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

Nigel...take a TO from SF, and regain your respected football opinion here.....because you really have seemed to "lost it"....

You'll be shocked to hear I don't really care what you think of my 'respected football opinion' much less your thoughts on whether I should continue to post here.

Some of the whiners on here want me 'stop posting' ....others throw a hissy fit and call me a coward when I fail to respond within 5 mins of their latest yawn inducing effort - what a varied little group you are.

Anyway its funny how people only ever want to compliment me on my 'football knowledge' or 'respected footbal opinion',..right before they launch into some type of attack :toofunny:

Anyway, good job with the slightly creepy cheerleading.

Livinginthe past
09-16-2007, 02:05 AM
Nigel...

Nope... HTG and others simply show good football sense. We knew that the Patriots weren't good enough to do what they did... We knew the coach wasn't good enough to coach the way he did. 2+2 was equaling 5...

now we know why.

And like I said, im truly happy that you are finding such zen in the happenings of the last few days.

If it makes it all better again, then thats just great for you.

Maybe you can go out and buy some copies of the 3GTG SB series from the 2001,2003 and 2004 season and copy paste some of your favorite cry-baby Steelers players on top of the Patriots players.

Tomlin has a hard act to follow,,,replacing the coach who won 4 Lombardi's (the 1 robbed from the hawks + the 3 the Steelers automatically get from the Patriots).

It must be tough being 'the best'.

:toofunny:

Edman
09-16-2007, 03:50 AM
How dare you bash the Patriots? What is wrong with you people? They are gods reincarnated. So what they got caught red-handed cheating? It doesn't make their three SB's questionable! Not at all! They're allowed to because they're the Patriots! You're all jealous! :blah::blah:

Hines0wnz
09-16-2007, 11:14 AM
Sure they are.

Goodell did anythign but chicken out - the fact is most fans wont be happy (but they pretend they are) until those SB titles that form the Dynasty are officially taken away - keep dreaming. :wink02:


No, dead wrong. The past cannot be changed but their future success could have been seriously hindered (and deservedly so) with a more harsh punishment.

X-Terminator
09-16-2007, 11:36 AM
OK, here's the score:

Does the Patriots get caught cheating diminish their success? Yes, IMO. But you can't take away their SB titles. Even if they did cheat to win them, they still won them, and that's that. Sure, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because they beat the Steelers twice to get there, and I loathe their arrogant ass fans...but success is success.

Should Belichick been suspended? Absolutely, and because he wasn't, it diminishes the severity of Goodell's punishment. He was the brains behind the whole thing - how does he NOT get a suspension? $500K to him and $250K to Kraft (which is a bigger joke - he probably has a quilt made our of that much cash) + the loss of a 1st round pick (which means nothing since they'll still have one) amounts to a slap on the wrist. If it were Mike Tomlin or any other HC, he would have been suspended and heavier fines handed out.

LITP, you're just going to have to live with the fact that many opposing fans see your team as a fraud, as unreasonable as it sounds. You can call it whatever you want - sour grapes, hatred...but it is what it is. I hate the Pats, but I still respected them and their success. In my mind, it's now tainted, and everything they've ever won is now questionable. How can it not be in light of this scandal?

tony hipchest
09-16-2007, 03:57 PM
it has just been confirmed that Bill Belichick has hired an attorney for the appeal from the law offices of Dewey, Cheatum, & Howe.

BlastFurnace
09-16-2007, 04:54 PM
Sure they are.

Goodell did anythign but chicken out - the fact is most fans wont be happy (but they pretend they are) until those SB titles that form the Dynasty are officially taken away - keep dreaming. :wink02:

I never said to take away the SB trophies. I just said they are viewed very skeptically by everyone now...Just like Barry. The Patriots have cheated and no-one knows for how long.

My problem with this thing is that BB wasn't suspended, not taking away victories. As a matter of fact, that is a problem to a lot of people.

NV STEELERS 723
09-16-2007, 05:07 PM
You'll be shocked to hear I don't really care what you think of my 'respected football opinion' much less your thoughts on whether I should continue to post here.

Some of the whiners on here want me 'stop posting' ....others throw a hissy fit and call me a coward when I fail to respond within 5 mins of their latest yawn inducing effort - what a varied little group you are.

Anyway its funny how people only ever want to compliment me on my 'football knowledge' or 'respected footbal opinion',..right before they launch into some type of attack :toofunny:

Anyway, good job with the slightly creepy cheerleading.

I never said quit posting here...I just proposed the idea of letting the air cool here at SF...you love your team and we know that....we at SF love our team too....but you seem to make so many excuses for the Pats, and the writing is on the wall...

Bellicheat and the pats cheated....it is what it is....

I play golf ... and I play very good...if I caught someone cheating during my mens club tournaments, it would piss me off, and our association would kick them out of the club........

For now on the pats will always be a tarnished NFL team....They Cheated !

revefsreleets
09-16-2007, 05:29 PM
The rumor is that Goodell is not pleased at Bill's cavalier attitude during and after this affair, and he really didn't like the "Interpret the rule" statement, which means the Pats are actively admitting that they do this all the time. That's why he is asking for all the records and tapes. Don't be surprised if BB does end up suspended when more penalties are added.

SteelCityMan786
09-16-2007, 05:36 PM
The rumor is that Goodell is not pleased at Bill's cavalier attitude during and after this affair, and he really didn't like the "Interpret the rule" statement, which means the Pats are actively admitting that they do this all the time. That's why he is asking for all the records and tapes. Don't be surprised if BB does end up suspended when more penalties are added.

I say 8 games with a 1 million dollar fine added on.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-16-2007, 05:56 PM
The rumor is that Goodell is not pleased at Bill's cavalier attitude during and after this affair, and he really didn't like the "Interpret the rule" statement, which means the Pats are actively admitting that they do this all the time. That's why he is asking for all the records and tapes. Don't be surprised if BB does end up suspended when more penalties are added.

Hopefully it won't end here. Belicheat was smug and almost snickering and OH SO arrogant in his post I'm a cheater press conference. He spoke like he's above the other 31 teams and doesn't have to follow the same rules. The arrogance of this
a - hole is beyond words or anything I've ever seen before.

I'd like to see them stick it to him again.

New England Patriots Dynasty**

**Nothing but a SHAM

NV STEELERS 723
09-16-2007, 05:56 PM
I say the NFL just kick them out of the league. Period.

Atlanta Dan
09-16-2007, 06:55 PM
The part of the story that appears to merit further development is defensive players allegedly being wired up to capture the Jets audibles - who knows if Belicheat has already been asked about that by Goodell and denied it - if it turns out to be true Belicheat can ask Vick what Goodell thinks about being lied to

geo111
09-17-2007, 06:20 PM
If it ever comes about that Belichick is considered for the Hall of Fame; I hope that his cheating is remembered and that it is sufficient to deny him entry.

jjpro11
09-17-2007, 07:01 PM
The part of the story that appears to merit further development is defensive players allegedly being wired up to capture the Jets audibles - who knows if Belicheat has already been asked about that by Goodell and denied it - if it turns out to be true Belicheat can ask Vick what Goodell thinks about being lied to

that and the patriots personnel wandering into the visiting teams locker rooms looking for information. if he gets caught with this radio frequency crap.. meaning listening to the other team's radio, wiring up defensive players, etc... they should ban him from the league. the radio frequency shit could be very very bad for him and the pats if it gets proven.

Atlanta Dan
09-17-2007, 07:07 PM
that and the patriots personnel wandering into the visiting teams locker rooms looking for information. if he gets caught with this radio frequency crap.. meaning listening to the other team's radio, wiring up defensive players, etc... they should ban him from the league. the radio frequency shit could be very very bad for him and the pats if it gets proven.

Checking out the visitor's locker room is despicable (and something I have no doubt the Pats did) but If you leave your plays on the blackboard you should expect the worst - it is like visiting someone else's office for a meeting and leaving your confidential documents or laptop unattended in their conference room when everyone goes to lunch.

Trust but verify - Ronald Reagan

tony hipchest
09-17-2007, 07:19 PM
Checking out the visitor's locker room is despicable (and something I have no doubt the Pats did) but If you leave your plays on the blackboard you should expect the worst - it is like visiting someone else's office for a meeting and leaving your confidential documents or laptop unattended in their conference room when everyone goes to lunch.

Trust but verify - Ronald Reagan jimmy johnson revealed he used to have someone go dig through the trash in the coaches press box after games. coordinators sometimes would toss a whole gameplan.

alot have minimized how much of an advantage there is from just filming on the sidelines. its not just that. when you add that advantage with all the other advantages theyve gained by cheating, it adds up to a huge advantage. belichick is definitely the "best". the best cheater.

very kind of goodell to allow the patriots to use all their chargers tapes and notes before they were summoned.

not that thats an excuse. i believe parcells when he says what a state of coaching transition the chargers are in. and i believe keyshawn johnson when he says the chargers needed to sign a good reliable wr (such as himself).

Atlanta Dan
09-17-2007, 07:26 PM
jimmy johnson revealed he used to have someone go dig through the trash in the coaches press box after games. coordinators sometimes would toss a whole gameplan..

Yep - you have no expectation of privacy for anything you throw out or leave at the curb if someone decides to go dumpster diving

It is not directly on point, but buy a shredder for home use and use your office shredder or (for larger quantities of docs) the shredder bin for anything confidential.

tony hipchest
09-17-2007, 07:35 PM
Yep - you have no expectation of privacy for anything you throw out or leave at the curb if someone decides to go dumpster diving

It is not directly on point, but buy a shredder for home use and use your office shredder or (for larger quantities of docs) the shredder bin for anything confidential.
i wouldnt put it past belichick to pay some wacked out tweakers minimum wage and a weeks worth of meth, to put together shreaded documents like jigsaw a puzzle. :willy:

Atlanta Dan
09-18-2007, 12:28 PM
Gregg Easterbrook rips into Belicheat in his Tuesday Morning QB column, saying even Vick has more class

This is an excerpt:

The weasel wording of Belichick's Nixonian statement shows the New England coach full of contempt for the NFL fans, and the NFL enterprise, that made him a wealthy celebrity. Belichick declared that his super-elaborate cheating system was only a "mistake" caused by his "interpretation" of the league's rule. Wait, "interpretation"? The NFL rule bans teams from filming each other's sidelines. There's no room for interpretation, it's a ban! ... Belichick's cheating was not some casual spur-of-the-moment blunder but rather an elaborate staffed system that took a lot of work to put into place and that Belichick worked hard to hide. And you don't hide something unless you are ashamed of it.

Michael Vick tried to deny and stonewall, but at the last owned up and admitted what he did. That's dignity. Belichick is now using weasel words to deny responsibility for his own choices. What kind of example does that set for the young? "Make good choices," football coaches constantly preach to the young. Now, caught, Belichick wants a special exemption to responsibility for his own choices. Belichick also is trying to close the matter by saying he won't talk about it anymore. So he cheated and now unilaterally declares the matter closed because he doesn't want to face the consequences of his own choices. But this is not over and not going away. Before the cheating scandal, Belichick had a reputation for being heartless but a really good coach. Now, he seems little more than a creepy con artist, and it's the refusal to act like a man and take full responsibility that's really offensive. Goodell's draft-choice penalty against the Patriots ? either a first or a second and a third ? is the highest draft penalty ever imposed in the NFL. The severity of this sanction shows how seriously Goodell takes the violation. If more disclosures are coming, there might be a lot more punishment of the Patriots. And unless Belichick comes clean and stops lying about his cheating, this event should disqualify him from consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame ? it is, after all, not the Hall of Cheaters.:sofunny:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/070918

FWIW I do not think Vick showed dignity either but unlike Belicheat he does not continue to claim immoral behavior is just another choice.

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
09-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Brady throws a tantrum - from profootballtalk.com

Though there still could be some more consequences down the road from last week's spy scandal, the controversy that arose last week -- and the media scrutiny that it caused -- has had a significant effect on the franchise.

As one league insider explained it on Monday afternoon, "[Coach Bill] Belichick is pissed, and he wants to go undefeated."

After trashing two of the other five 2006 AFC playoff teams by the identical score of 38-14 on consecutive Sundays, the Patriots clearly have the talent to run the table. A storm of accusations arising from past tactics is giving Belichick all the incentive that he needs to aim for a 16-0, and all the ammo he'd require to get the troops appropriately motivated.

The on-field leader of the troops already is on board with the chip-on-the-shoulder routine, as evidenced by his Monday comments on WEEI radio in Boston. According to the Boston Herald, quarterback Tom Brady lashed out at the critics, calling any suggestion that he received advance information "absurd."

"By no means am I sitting here getting plays and getting defenses and checking plays based on defenses that I'm getting. That's completely absurd," Brady said. "If that was the case, I think that's just ridiculous. You know, I hear other players, based on what I've heard on television, that 'Brady's getting defenses.' I'm saying, 'That's just ridiculous.'

"But like I said, we pick our battles, and the ones that we are most capable of fighting are the ones we play. Rather than respond with words, we respond through actions. It was a long week because you hear this, but at the same time, people will see."

Apart from the possibility that the Pats will ride the "us against the world" train long enough to bogart the bubbly from the members of the 1972 Dolphins, we think that Belichick or Brady or someone needs to explain exactly what the purpose of videotaping the defensive signals was, if Brady is telling the truth.

Then again, it could be that Brady was only ever told what plays to run and/or which defenders to watch for; such an approach prevents players from knowing too much about the shenanigans, and helps to perpetuate within the locker room the notion that the coaches are super-geniuses

Atlanta Dan
09-18-2007, 07:44 PM
The wagons have been circled - Pats apologist-in-chief Bill Simmons whines away:

The Patriots cheated in one game. They got caught, they paid the price. ...But since they've already paid a steep penalty for a one-time indiscretion, can we move on with the 2007 NFL season, please?...

So save me the moral indignation about CameraGate. The whole world is screwed up.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/bostonblog

No Bill - the Pats were penalized for cheating in one game - nobody believes this is the first time Belicheat pulled this stunt.

"Let others wallow in Watergate. We're going to do our job." - Bill Belicheat/Bill Simmons

tony hipchest
09-18-2007, 09:25 PM
"By no means am I sitting here getting plays and getting defenses and checking plays based on defenses that I'm getting. That's completely absurd," Brady said. "If that was the case, I think that's just ridiculous. You know, I hear other players, based on what I've heard on television, that 'Brady's getting defenses.' I'm saying, 'That's just ridiculous.'
nice denial brady. i guess it would be too much of a lie for you to flat out say "i NEVER received this information.... PERIOD!"

= GUILTY + CHEATER[s]

these punks are an insult to die hard football fans everywhere. way to go to bastardize the sport that stuffed your pockets and put your face on the map. :thumbsup:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/chick.jpg

"i think thats just rediculous" :rolleyes:

wadester47
09-18-2007, 09:47 PM
What did you expect, if the colts and the pats do anything wrong people look the other way. If it was the steelers we would have had to give up the season- their just do is coming.
Oh it's coming!!!!!