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BeuffordLTD
09-20-2007, 10:03 AM
This year the NFL introduced a new ruling that basically states that a delay of game penalty (5 yards) will be assessed if a player spikes the ball after a play (see penalty on Evans last week.)

Now, if the receiver gains a first down, the offense keeps the first down, but starts 1st and 15. Couldn't a defensive player just kick the ball after an offensive player spikes it, earn a delay of game penalty, and create a scenario with offsetting penalties and redo the play...basically nullifying the first down?

I could be totally wrong on this, just looking for some insight.

tony hipchest
09-20-2007, 10:06 AM
i dont know if that could be considered unsportsmanlike conduct, and earn the offense 15 yds and a 1st down. no matter the ruling, i think theres a rule in place that would not give the defense such an easy way out.

rog
09-20-2007, 10:10 AM
This year the NFL introduced a new ruling that basically states that a delay of game penalty (5 yards) will be assessed if a player spikes the ball after a play (see penalty on Evans last week.)

Now, if the receiver gains a first down, the offense keeps the first down, but starts 1st and 15. Couldn't a defensive player just kick the ball after an offensive player spikes it, earn a delay of game penalty, and create a scenario with offsetting penalties and redo the play...basically nullifying the first down?

I could be totally wrong on this, just looking for some insight.

If the defender kicked the ball after the offensive player spikes it the play would already be over so it would be a dead ball foul which means the offense would keep the first down not to mention that by kicking the ball by the defender could possibly be looked at as unsportsmanlike conduct resulting in a 15 yard penalty.

ShutDown24
09-20-2007, 10:21 AM
Did you catch that on NFL network’s official review? Eisen really got the V.P there... His face was like ____________ Anyway; with Pereira’s explanation yes a defense could manipulate that rule.

"Any minor foul at all that coincides with another minor foul from the opposing team automatically off-set"

SO yes, if the receiver were to spike a ball then have the defender pick it up and spike it, it would definitely give the defense the edge deducting the offensive gain. They are both dead ball fouls since the receiver spiked/threw the ball after he was downed obviously.

Answer: Yes - But it is WAAAY to hard to pull off on purpose to be of any use. And will anyone use it besides maybe the Patriots? Doubtful, especially considering the fact that most players don’t even know about the spike/throw rule yet… ><

BeuffordLTD
09-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Thanks for the info.

I hadn't considered the dead ball call in which a more severe penalty is assessed rather than offset.

Mosca
09-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Wouldn't it just offset the 5 yards? D kicks the ball, O starts with first and 10 instead of first and 15.


Tom

rog
09-20-2007, 10:46 AM
When the offense gets a first down and then gets a dead ball foul after the play they get to keep the first down. I would have thought they would get to keep the first down even if the defense makes an offsetting penalty but I guess I was wrong on that one.

ShutDown24
09-20-2007, 11:06 AM
When the offense gets a first down and then gets a dead ball foul after the play they get to keep the first down. I would have thought they would get to keep the first down even if the defense makes an offsetting penalty but I guess I was wrong on that one.


You should be right but unfortunatley according to Mike Pereira (V.P of NFL officiating) that isn't the case :(

Livinginthe past
09-20-2007, 11:22 AM
I don't follow the logic of this one - team A gets the first down, ball is dead gets spiked.

Foul assessed at the end of the play 1st and 15.

D-player kicks the ball away, offsetting the original foul - offense gains back the 5 yards - 1st and 10...and back where we started.

I can't see how a defensive penalty can possibly move the ball backwards.

rog
09-20-2007, 11:31 AM
I would hope that if a defender kicks or throws the ball after a play they get hit with unsportsmanlike conduct or something.

Hines0wnz
09-20-2007, 01:35 PM
And will anyone use it besides maybe the Patriots?

I'm sure BB is finding a proper way to misinterpret it. :wink02:

jjpro11
09-20-2007, 02:36 PM
the refs dont even understand the rule, let alone the players.

NEW 'NO SPIKING' RULE NEEDS WORK by Michael David Smith

One of the NFL's new rules this season is a five-yard delay of game penalty on any player who spikes the ball on any non-scoring play. Yesterday Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey and Cowboys wide receiver Terrell Owens were both flagged for violating the rule.

The rule itself doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's clear from the way the rule was enforced (and not enforced) yesterday that the league didn't do a good enough job of thinking through the ramifications of the rules change.

Shockey committed his spike (actually, it was more like using one hand to bat the ball out of his other hand, but whatever) after a 14-yard catch on third-and-4. Packers defensive end Aaron Kampman had jumped offside on the play, and the officials ruled that the penalties offset, meaning they would re-play third-and-4.

Although NFL spokesman Greg Aiello tells me via e-mail that it was enforced properly, it seems like a strange way to enforce it. Shockey's penalty happened after the play was over, so the Giants should have been allowed to decline the offside, take the result of the play, and then have Shockey's penalty enforced prior to the next play, not as part of the previous play.

That's how it worked with the Owens spike, which he committed after a 28-yard catch on third-and-15. Owens' catch counted, but the Cowboys were moved back five yards from the spot where Owens was tackled.

Essentially, the way this rule is enforced means the Dolphins would have been much better off if they had committed a penalty on the play where Owens got his 28-yard catch.

Meanwhile, Patriots receiver Wes Welker spiked the ball after a catch against the Chargers last night, in plain view of at least one official, and there was no penalty. Aiello says, "it's a judgment call and the crew did not believe it was blatant enough to be penalized."

If the rule can't be enforced uniformly and in a way that everyone can understand, the league shouldn't have added it.

Livinginthe past
09-21-2007, 06:40 AM
You really have to think that the Shockey interpretation was the incorrect one.

The ball is dead, the play is over - the penalties cannot offset.

I hope they get this sorted out quickly.

GBMelBlount
09-21-2007, 08:35 AM
[QUOTE=Livinginthe past;297119]

Foul assessed at the end of the play 1st and 15.

D-player kicks the ball away, offsetting the original foul - offense gains back the 5 yards - 1st and 10...and back where we started.

/QUOTE]

That's what I would've thunk.:hunch:

RoethlisBURGHer
09-21-2007, 04:02 PM
How the hell is it a judgement call? A spike is clearly a spike.

And if the NFL can't make it clear to the ref's and players how it works, then just get rid of it and work on it in the offseason.

I'm waiting to see the time a player tosses the ball to the ref, the red drops it, and throws the flag for spiking the ball.