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Mosca
10-22-2007, 10:38 AM
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

Hines0wnz
10-22-2007, 12:15 PM
I think they have the capability but this is still a run first team. Denver put 8 men in the box last night (as do most Defenses against the Steelers) and dared Ben to beat them with his arm. Now that Hines is back and with the obvious comfort Ben has with both TEs, maybe the passing game will start to blossom which I think will cause all sorts of problems for opposing Ds. This team has loads of potential and maybe last night taught them to not believe the hype.

X-Terminator
10-22-2007, 12:43 PM
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

The Steelers definitely have the threat to strike from anywhere on the field. It just doesn't work too well when the OL doesn't give the QB enough time to throw the deep ball accurately.

tony hipchest
10-22-2007, 12:48 PM
Anyone else?did you see the 2 touchdowns randy moss caught yesterday? 2 balls that brady had absolutely no business throwing. moss was draped in 2 defenders. moss made both catches though. ben made the exact same 2 throws to holmes vs. the bills and again last night and the ball was picked off.

now holmes definitely isnt a moss or a burress. hes shown he can stretch the field, but just hasnt really shown off any of his vertical leaping skills or proven he can consistantly climb the ladder over defenders.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 01:13 PM
Part of the problem is that when Ben gets the green light to throw deep he insists on throwing it regadless of the coverage, so Arians may be reluctant to dial up a turnover by making that call.

I thought he had broken his habit of consistently throwing deep reagrdless of teh coverege, but the forced INT into double coverage on Holmes was a repeat of a forced throw into double coverage in the Bills game (after which the deep ball disappeared).

The INT was just one example of Madden's observation the Steelers seemed out of sync in the first half last night, which I attribute to Arians' daffy throw first game plan.

Mosca
10-22-2007, 02:14 PM
XTerm, I don't see that. I see the ability to throw deep, and to run deep, but I don't see the ability to connect the two. I don't think teams see us as having any extra ability to score in thaat way. Denver was sticking 8 in the box all night; if you have a viable deep threat, then there is no 8 in the box and the running game works.

Tony, Moss is unreal. But even Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth are deep threats for the Pats. They have the accuracy and timing down better than we do. No one can convince me that their running game is more talented than ours; but because other teams have to cover the entire field, on every play, they can beat you with every weapon in their arsenal. They run the ball as effectively as we do because they pass it so much better.

The ability to do EVERYTHING better is the key to being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want to. There was nothing wrong with last night's "pass first" game plan, other than we didn't execute well enough in the first half to pull it off; but it worked really well in the second half when they stacked against the run. When they went into pass defense, Parker broke some nice gains. But because our passing game wasn't credible for the first 40 minutes or so, the run got stuffed.

Whether it's that we can't hit the deep guy, or like AD says that when the deep guy is covered we don't hit the short guy; we have to make that play credible. If I were a defensive coordinator, I would accept the risk of Roethlisberger scrambling against the increased possibility that he'll throw an interception, or fumble, or get sacked. Or get injured. Is the line a part of the problem? Of course. But all that means is that it has to be part of the solution, too; the problem still is the same, that teams can set up a certain way and handle us if we can't make the big yardage plays.

Big D
10-22-2007, 02:29 PM
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

I couldnt agree with you more. Ben isnt Carson, Brady or manning. We need to go back to steeler football. Run first.... We faced the worst run defense in the league and we got pass freaking happy.I think between davenport and parker they should have had 40 carries between the two of them. It's funny to me when willie struggles how quickly we are to abandon the run. But yet when benny was fumbling and throwing ints in the first half we kept throwing. I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 02:46 PM
I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

Well, Arians is "experienced" - unfortunately he experienced being fired as O-coordinator by the Browns.:dang:

FWIW Tomlin stayed in house with both the defensive coordiantor (IMO the Rooneys were assured by Tomlin before his hire that LeBeau was staying) and o-coordiantor (although what Arians specifically brings to the table escapes me). Maybe as a young coach of a competitive team he wanted soem continuity.

Tomlin is still finding his way - he may very well find his way to a new coordinator in 2008 (his comment to Andrea Kramer at the half last night that the Steelers needed to run more indicaed to me that posters here were not the only ones ticked off by the game plan). Until then he may have asit down with arians and tell him that pass first is not the way to go with an O-line having protection issues as well as good (not great) WRs and a good (not great) QB.

Big D
10-22-2007, 02:50 PM
Well, Arians is "experienced" - unfortunately he experienced being fired as O-coordinator by the Browns.:dang:

FWIW Tomlin stayed in house with both the defensive coordiantor (IMO the Rooneys were assured by Tomlin before his hire that LeBeau was staying) and o-coordiantor (although what Arians specifically brings to the table escapes me). Maybe as a young coach of a competitive team he wanted soem continuity.

Tomlin is still finding his way - he may very well find his way to a new coordinator in 2008 (his comment to Andrea Kramer at the half last night that the Steelers needed to run more indicaed to me that posters here were not the only ones ticked off by the game plan). Until then he may have asit down with arians and tell him that pass first is not the way to go with an O-line having protection issues as well as good (not great) WRs and a good (not great) QB.

yeah I know he is experienced but he was absolute garbage in cleveland.

moedap
10-22-2007, 03:36 PM
The deep ball has to be set up with P.A. or short passes with our Steelers due to the small receivers. Going deep using double moves is not going to work if you havent set the D up with short passes.

Footballoutsiders.com has a great article on how Indy sets up its passing game. Out of the Singleback formation they run a lot of stretches and off tackle runs which gets the LBs moving horizontally. Once they get the LB's conditioned to look for the stretches they will hit you with P.A. to WR or Tightend in the middle of the field. Now you get the safties concentrating on the middle of the field when oops Manning will hit Harrison or Wayne on a fly. The point is each preceding play sets up the next play. Where Arians seems to be calling a mixture of passing plays out of different formations with the intent of appearing unpredictable.

Haiku_Dirtt
10-22-2007, 03:38 PM
If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably ?

Two things will have to happen for me. He needs to drop back in the pocket at least once per game without facing an avalanche.

And he must curtail that self-destructive tendency to force poorly thrown "passes" into double and triple coverage.

Granted I missed most of the first half (praying for NFL Replay...I think) but I'm soooooo tired of watching Ben prove his escapability. His Red Zone stats last night were very outstanding though.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 03:57 PM
Granted I missed most of the first half (praying for NFL Replay...I think) .

I would assume Steelers-Broncos and Titans-Texans are locks for NFL Replay this week

steelpride12
10-22-2007, 06:10 PM
I like our play actions more than anything. With a great TE like Miller he is capable of getting open in the middle for a big gain like he did last night. Its just that Ben needs the time to throw the ball!

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 06:17 PM
Granted I missed most of the first half (praying for NFL Replay...I think) but I'm soooooo tired of watching Ben prove his escapability. His Red Zone stats last night were very outstanding though.


NFL Network has scheduled Steelers-Broncos for NFL Replay at 8 pm EDT this Wednesday. I will watch it to see what was going on with the D.

Preacher
10-22-2007, 06:39 PM
I couldnt agree with you more. Ben isnt Carson, Brady or manning. We need to go back to steeler football. Run first.... We faced the worst run defense in the league and we got pass freaking happy.I think between davenport and parker they should have had 40 carries between the two of them. It's funny to me when willie struggles how quickly we are to abandon the run. But yet when benny was fumbling and throwing ints in the first half we kept throwing. I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

Yes.. we faced the team FIRST IN PASS DEFENSE... and put up 4 TD's THROUGH THE AIR... How can we really argue with that?

Our problem was that the defense was not able to get off the field on 3rd downs. That one issue alone changed the face of the game.

And going back to a run first offense is the WORST THING WE COULD EVER DO. Show me ONE... just ONE of Cowher's teams that would have been able to pick up 2 touchdowns in the fourth quarter and put us in the position to tie/win?

In that run first team, we would have been lucky to get 7 points in the fourth quarter. Going back to the past will not give us hope in the future. Rolling our defense up onto the line and bumping the receivers coming off the line will help us win games. The defense getting pressure on the QB will help us win games. The O line actually blocking will help us win games.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 06:48 PM
Yes.. we faced the team FIRST IN PASS DEFENSE... and put up 4 TD's THROUGH THE AIR... How can we really argue with that?

Our problem was that the defense was not able to get off the field on 3rd downs. That one issue alone changed the face of the game.

And going back to a run first offense is the WORST THING WE COULD EVER DO. Show me ONE... just ONE of Cowher's teams that would have been able to pick up 2 touchdowns in the fourth quarter and put us in the position to tie/win?

In that run first team, we would have been lucky to get 7 points in the fourth quarter. Going back to the past will not give us hope in the future. Rolling our defense up onto the line and bumping the receivers coming off the line will help us win games. The defense getting pressure on the QB will help us win games. The O line actually blocking will help us win games.

So you liked the first half game plan of 12 runs, 21 passes (2 INTs and a sack/fumble return for a TD), and 7 points? If anyone has as bad a run defense as Denver it is Cincy - should they be pass happy next Sunday too?

IMO nobody is saying the Steelers go back to a 65/35 run/pass split like 2004 but going pass happy gives the D less rest.

Ben threw 35 passes last night against the worst run defense in the league (which might explain why teams do not waste time passing against Denver) - when he throws over 25 the Steelers usually lose

Bottom line is Steelers were 14 points down and lost to a team San Diego smacked - not a good thing

NM

Preacher
10-22-2007, 07:03 PM
So you liked the first half game plan of 12 runs, 21 passes (2 INTs and a sack/fumble return for a TD), and 7 points? If anyone has as bad a run defense as Denver it is Cincy - should they be pass happy next Sunday too?

IMO nobody is saying the Steelers go back to a 65/35 run/pass split like 2004 but going pass happy gives the D less rest.

Ben threw 35 passes last night - when he throws over 25 the Steelers usually lose

NM

That stat is meaningless as a pointer to cause or effect.

Why do we lose? Is it because Ben throws the ball? Or is it because our defense is so bad during those games that Ben HAS to throw the ball that many times to keep us in the game? I don't by the stat as a pointer to passing as bad.

Furthermore, Ben had 1 interception that was his fault. Ward was at fault for the second interception. If you have both hands on the ball, your at fault of the ball gets through your hands. Period.

Ben should have protected the ball better on the fumble. But running the ball doesn't guarantee that there won't be a fumble.

And on that Time of possession thing..... here are the stats...

Possession31:3528:25

Thats 31:35 FOR THE STEELERS....

So if our Defense can't play LESS then half a game... We have serious troubles.

No, Passing the ball is not why we lost... it IS the reason why we were within a minute and a quarter of tying the game however.

Mosca
10-22-2007, 07:20 PM
Ineffectiveness at establishing a deep threat hurts the Steelers running game, because opposing teams can fill the box. If we can strike for 6 within 15 seconds, then the long ball must be always guarded against, opening up the run.

Cause? Effect? In football, there are only interlocking pieces. The more things you can do, the better you can do all of them. When we started hitting the middle routes well in the second half, Parker broke off some nice gains. By then we needed our points quickly. But the threat of either made both work.

It's not the failure of the game plan; it's the failure to EXECUTE the game plan that hurts. We need a credible deep threat.

Big D
10-22-2007, 07:23 PM
Yes.. we faced the team FIRST IN PASS DEFENSE... and put up 4 TD's THROUGH THE AIR... How can we really argue with that?

Our problem was that the defense was not able to get off the field on 3rd downs. That one issue alone changed the face of the game.

And going back to a run first offense is the WORST THING WE COULD EVER DO. Show me ONE... just ONE of Cowher's teams that would have been able to pick up 2 touchdowns in the fourth quarter and put us in the position to tie/win?

In that run first team, we would have been lucky to get 7 points in the fourth quarter. Going back to the past will not give us hope in the future. Rolling our defense up onto the line and bumping the receivers coming off the line will help us win games. The defense getting pressure on the QB will help us win games. The O line actually blocking will help us win games.

and you didnt pull your hair out after bens three first half turnovers? You face the 32nd ranked run defense. How about pound the football.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 07:30 PM
That stat is meaningless as a pointer to cause or effect.

Why do we lose? Is it because Ben throws the ball? Or is it because our defense is so bad during those games that Ben HAS to throw the ball that many times to keep us in the game? I don't by the stat as a pointer to passing as bad.

Furthermore, Ben had 1 interception that was his fault. Ward was at fault for the second interception. If you have both hands on the ball, your at fault of the ball gets through your hands. Period.

Ben should have protected the ball better on the fumble. But running the ball doesn't guarantee that there won't be a fumble.

And on that Time of possession thing..... here are the stats...



Thats 31:35 FOR THE STEELERS....

So if our Defense can't play LESS then half a game... We have serious troubles.

No, Passing the ball is not why we lost... it IS the reason why we were within a minute and a quarter of tying the game however.

Two can play the circular logic game :sofunny:

I agree passing brought the Steelers back last night (when you are 14 points down in the 4th quarter you do not have many other options) but not balancing the run and the pass is what botched the first half and got them down in the first place. Tomlin apparently thought so too if his comments about needing to run more to Andrea Kramer at the half are accurate and if he had any input into the Steelers calling 5 runs out of 6 plays to start the second half after Foote's interception)

And as far as interceptions being someone's "fault" I am not blaming Ben - throwing as much as Arians called last night is going to set up more miscues when it was not necessary to do so

The first half was Bruce Arians being too clever for his own good and it blew up on him - I do not think he has yet found his play calling rhythm (as Madden observed in the first half last night about the Steelers seeming disjointed)

GBMelBlount
10-22-2007, 07:33 PM
The Steelers definitely have the threat to strike from anywhere on the field. It just doesn't work too well when the OL doesn't give the QB enough time to throw the deep ball accurately.




Part of the problem is that when Ben gets the green light to throw deep he insists on throwing it regadless of the coverage, so Arians may be reluctant to dial up a turnover by making that call.

Ben needs more time and needs to make better decisions.

Preacher
10-22-2007, 07:43 PM
Two can play the circular logic game :sofunny:

I agree passing brought the Steelers back last night (when you are 14 points down in the 4th quarter you do not have many other options) but not balancing the run and the pass is what botched the first half and got them down in the first place. Tomlin apparently thought so too if his comments about needing to run more to Andrea Kramer at the half are accurate and if he had any input into the Steelers calling 5 runs out of 6 plays to start the second half after Foote's interception)

And as far as interceptions being someone's "fault" I am not blaming Ben - throwing as much as Arians called last night is going to set up more miscues when it was not necessary to do so

The first half was Bruce Arians being too clever for his own good and it blew up on him - I do not think he has yet found his play calling rhythm (as Madden observed in the first half last night about the Steelers seeming disjointed)

AD...

All around....

That is just a very smart post! :thumbsup:

Here is a couple questions then, tying this post in with Mosca's post.

1. Is it worth going out and looking for a big receiver that can run the deep routes?

2. On a completely different note, would it be better for the NFL in their stat keeping, to keep stats on interceptions more like baseball... Error (position). So it would look more like this, "Interception (QB)" or "Interceptions (WR)." The initials would be for the player who was responsible for the interception (did Ben throw the ball into double coverage? Yep Interception (QB). Did the ball hit Ward in the hands? Yep, Interception (WR). I just think it would keep better record of what really happened in the game.

3. Your dead right on balance. So the question then is... what is keeping us from that balance. I can't imagine it is just Arians saying screw it. What is he seeing, or what does he suspect that makes us be unbalanced?

Preacher
10-22-2007, 07:47 PM
and you didnt pull your hair out after bens three first half turnovers? You face the 32nd ranked run defense. How about pound the football.

I pulled out my hair after Ben's first interception, after Hines let a ball go right through his hands and into a second interception, and when the O line let the defense come through like they were turnstyles and created a fumble by hitting Ben (yeah, Ben should tried to tuck the ball better as well).

Pound the ball? With 8 and 9 men in the box? Sure, why not. Whenver we TRIED to do that, we got STUFFED. The big runs happened when they started fanning out to protect against the pass (if I remember the game right, gotta watch it again to make sure).

MasterOfPuppets
10-22-2007, 08:17 PM
I pulled out my hair after Ben's first interception, after Hines let a ball go right through his hands and into a second interception, and when the O line let the defense come through like they were turnstyles and created a fumble by hitting Ben (yeah, Ben should tried to tuck the ball better as well).

Pound the ball? With 8 and 9 men in the box? Sure, why not. Whenver we TRIED to do that, we got STUFFED. The big runs happened when they started fanning out to protect against the pass (if I remember the game right, gotta watch it again to make sure).wow....i can't believe what i'm reading. this is the EXACT opposite of the arizona complaints from here. tomlin was called a cowher clone , predictable, stubborn. and why? because he wouldn't abandon an ineffective run game. its not like they didn't run the ball. parker had 21 carries for 93 yds. here's every carry parker had...
0
3
7
4
27
3
-3
1
7

second half

1
1
15
4
-4
-3
24
1
1
1
1
4
thats 21 carries....11 were for 1 yd or less.....51 of the 93 yds came on 2 runs leaving42 yds on 19 carries,for an average or 2.2 yds per carry. very similiar to the arizona game. the game that everyone bitched about NOT throwing more !!!

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 08:22 PM
AD...

Here is a couple questions then, tying this post in with Mosca's post.

1. Is it worth going out and looking for a big receiver that can run the deep routes?

2. On a completely different note, would it be better for the NFL in their stat keeping, to keep stats on interceptions more like baseball... Error (position). So it would look more like this, "Interception (QB)" or "Interceptions (WR)." The initials would be for the player who was responsible for the interception (did Ben throw the ball into double coverage? Yep Interception (QB). Did the ball hit Ward in the hands? Yep, Interception (WR). I just think it would keep better record of what really happened in the game.

3. Your dead right on balance. So the question then is... what is keeping us from that balance. I can't imagine it is just Arians saying screw it. What is he seeing, or what does he suspect that makes us be unbalanced?

Peter King believes WR is a deep position you can pick up in the later rounds - i agree with King you spend your $$$ on who is throwing the ball, so spending yet another #1 on a WR (they have used 3 of 9 #1 picks on WR since 1999) does not make sense to me with the other needs (OL!!!!!) this team needs to fill.

For better or worse the Steelers had a first class deep threat (and head case) with Plax - I believe they made the correct choice with signing Ward and letting Plax go, but with Ward's contract I think at this point they have to figure out why Holmes is not being showcased rather than throw more $$$ at the problem.

As for the stats on who is responsible for INTs, my bet is NFL personnel men keep those sorts of stats but waiting to see how the "official scorer" would decide if the turnover was the QB's fault is probably not something the NFL officials (or fantasy football players) are ready to measure officially.

As for Arians, I just think he goes into a game with a plan (I admit I was yelling at him in the Arizona game for running too much) and will not deviate from it. He opened up with the pass, had success on the first series,and then rode it into the ground until halftime. When the pass first strategy was not working last night he was not flexible enough to change it until Tomlin told him to do so at halftime - maybe he should go back up to the booth and see what defenses are doing.

My concern is that Arians now becomes bipolar and runs 70% of the time this coming Sunday (which I think is a huge game - it either snuffs the Bengals season or puts them a game back with their New England loss already behind them).

Some coordinator decisions work out (Erhardt, Gailey & Whiz) and some do not (Sherman & Gilbride) - IMO Arians is on thin ice already.

Haiku_Dirtt
10-22-2007, 08:35 PM
NFL Network has scheduled Steelers-Broncos for NFL Replay at 8 pm EDT this Wednesday. I will watch it to see what was going on with the D.

Stoked. I picked the right game to allow my priorities to get in the way of football.

Fortunately that is not habit-forming. :whip:

tony hipchest
10-22-2007, 08:39 PM
Show me ONE... just ONE of Cowher's teams that would have been able to pick up 2 touchdowns in the fourth quarter and put us in the position to tie/win?

.

i just gotta add the 95 steelers who had the most effective 2 minute drill that year (it rivaled that of jim kellys aging bills). steelers scored more points in the final 2 minutes of a half than anybody, and like they showed in the regular season against the colts (i believe), they had no problem scoring 2 td's in the final 2 minutes of a half.

we were deep at wr 1-5. throw in k. stewart, e. green, m. breuner, and the running game of bam morris and e. pegram, and we could score on anybody, from anywhere, at anytime (as long as o'donnell wasnt screwing it up in the sb)

Haiku_Dirtt
10-22-2007, 09:00 PM
Peter King believes WR is a deep position you can pick up in the later rounds - i agree with King you spend your $$$ on who is throwing the ball, so spending yet another #1 on a WR (they have used 3 of 9 #1 picks on WR since 1999) does not make sense to me with the other needs (OL!!!!!) this team needs to fill.

For better or worse the Steelers had a first class deep threat (and head case) with Plax - I believe they made the correct choice with signing Ward and letting Plax go, but with Ward's contract I think at this point they have to figure out why Holmes is not being showcased rather than throw more $$$ at the problem.

As for the stats on who is responsible for INTs, my bet is NFL personnel men keep those sorts of stats but waiting to see how the "official scorer" would decide if the turnover was the QB's fault is probably not something the NFL officials (or fantasy football players) are ready to measure officially.

As for Arians, I just think he goes into a game with a plan (I admit I was yelling at him in the Arizona game for running too much) and will not deviate from it. He opened up with the pass, had success on the first series,and then rode it into the ground until halftime. When the pass first strategy was not working last night he was not flexible enough to change it until Tomlin told him to do so at halftime - maybe he should go back up to the booth and see what defenses are doing.

My concern is that Arians now becomes bipolar and runs 70% of the time this coming Sunday (which I think is a huge game - it either snuffs the Bengals season or puts them a game back with their New England loss already behind them).

Some coordinator decisions work out (Erhardt, Gailey & Whiz) and some do not (Sherman & Gilbride) - IMO Arians is on thin ice already.


Yes. And the thought of another "We Need a Receiver" tremor leaves me shaking my head. We have enough fire power catching footballs especially with our tight ends feasting in the end zone.

And if our TE's are not blocking then our linemen ought to be. And if Arians can't find plays that don't require Ben to camp out deep in the pocket then it's apparent he's not right for the job.

When our Pro Bowler Marvel Smith needs Davenport to help hold down one rusher the size of Santonio Holmes or Hines Wards is not the first thing that comes to mind for the upcoming draft.

revefsreleets
10-22-2007, 09:08 PM
Just adding my two cents here, but I got a little tired of the Steelers running Parker between the tackles in obvious running situations with 2 TE's and 8-9 guys in the box, then throwing the ball in obvious passing situations with empty backfields and 4-5 wide. There is such a thing as running the ball from the spread formation, or passing from the I-formation with 2 TE's. I know because I've seen them do it before. Just not much last night.

I was disappointed with some of the playaction calls, too. Why run playaction fakes to Willie in obvious passing situations when they never hand the ball to him from the same formations in possible running situations? Why not just give him the ball? And draw plays CAN be called in situations other than 3rd and long.

Just not happy with the playcalling last night, although that was only part of the problem.

Preacher
10-22-2007, 09:59 PM
Yes. And the thought of another "We Need a Receiver" tremor leaves me shaking my head. We have enough fire power catching footballs especially with our tight ends feasting in the end zone.

And if our TE's are not blocking then our linemen ought to be. And if Arians can't find plays that don't require Ben to camp out deep in the pocket then it's apparent he's not right for the job.

When our Pro Bowler Marvel Smith needs Davenport to help hold down one rusher the size of Santonio Holmes or Hines Wards is not the first thing that comes to mind for the upcoming draft.

I agree on the draft... I actually think this may be the one time we need to pick up a WR in FA. Someone who is proven and can get the job done on deep routes.

tony hipchest
10-22-2007, 10:17 PM
I was disappointed with some of the playaction calls, too. Why run playaction fakes to Willie in obvious passing situations when they never hand the ball to him from the same formations in possible running situations? Why not just give him the ball? And draw plays CAN be called in situations other than 3rd and long.

.

there was an excellent endzone shot i saw of 1 of these "play actions". the supposed hand off sucked as did bens non convincing pump fake downfield before he dumped it off to willie. the play simply wasnt sold. it looked like how they would go through the motions in practice.

if your play action is telographed it defeats the purpose. on the flipside, the red zone play action with davenport seems to work great.

another problem with our play action is it takes forever to develop. alot of bens deep shot interceptions would simply be overthrows, if they didnt take so long to develop.

the worst part of the play action is it works great against 7 defenders in the box, but if you have 8-9 defenders in the box, you have that many more angry people to get after the qb (hence our constant pass protection breakdowns)

this isnt kordell running play action with jerome any more. those plays need to be scrapped if theyre still in the book. kinda seems like they are.

MasterOfPuppets
10-22-2007, 10:18 PM
I agree on the draft... I actually think this may be the one time we need to pick up a WR in FA. Someone who is proven and can get the job done on deep routes.
don't think that guy will be available next season.....

Bernard Berrian, UFA, Chicago Bears
Patrick Crayton, UFA, Dallas Cowboys
Bryant Johnson, UFA, Arizona Cardinals
Drew Carter, UFA, Carolina Panthers
Antonio Chatman UFA Cincinnati Bengals
Keary Colbert UFA Carolina Panthers
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Atlanta Dan
10-22-2007, 10:27 PM
there was an excellent endzone shot i saw of 1 of these "play actions". the supposed hand off sucked as did bens non convincing pump fake downfield before he dumped it off to willie. the play simply wasnt sold. it looked like how they would go through the motions in practice.

if your play action is telographed it defeats the purpose. on the flipside, the red zone play action with davenport seems to work great.

another problem with our play action is it takes forever to develop. alot of bens deep shot interceptions would simply be overthrows, if they didnt take so long to develop.

the worst part of the play action is it works great against 7 defenders in the box, but if you have 8-9 defenders in the box, you have that many more angry people to get after the qb (hence our constant pass protection breakdowns)

this isnt kordell running play action with jerome any more. those plays need to be scrapped if theyre still in the book. kinda seems like they are.

So where do we go from here?

The day after an unexpected loss results in lot of criticism, but this whole season suddenly is up for grabs if the Steelers lose in Cincy.

Willie P. and Heath Miller are coming up huge (and Ben had an excellent second half) but the execution on offense and defense was off last night.

What are your thoughts as to getting pressure and pressuring defenses?

Preacher
10-22-2007, 10:35 PM
wow....i can't believe what i'm reading. this is the EXACT opposite of the arizona complaints from here. tomlin was called a cowher clone , predictable, stubborn. and why? because he wouldn't abandon an ineffective run game. its not like they didn't run the ball. parker had 21 carries for 93 yds. here's every carry parker had...

thats 21 carries....11 were for 1 yd or less.....51 of the 93 yds came on 2 runs leaving42 yds on 19 carries,for an average or 2.2 yds per carry. very similiar to the arizona game. the game that everyone bitched about NOT throwing more !!!

Thank you!

In this day and age, we need to be able to throw as well as run.

And I STILL am not sure how we can score 4 TD's through the air, yet have the reason we lose be that we were passing the ball.

The problem, people... was DEFENSE. Our O line didn't help however. But first and foremost... DEFENSE.

MasterOfPuppets
10-22-2007, 10:40 PM
Thank you!

In this day and age, we need to be able to throw as well as run.

And I STILL am not sure how we can score 4 TD's through the air, yet have the reason we lose be that we were passing the ball.

The problem, people... was DEFENSE. Our O line didn't help however. But first and foremost... DEFENSE.
yep.....minus the 1 pick....ben had a descent day....24 - 35 ..290 yds...4tds....17 first downs passing

not bad considering the pass protection was horrible.

tony hipchest
10-22-2007, 11:27 PM
So where do we go from here?

The day after an unexpected loss results in lot of criticism, but this whole season suddenly is up for grabs if the Steelers lose in Cincy.

Willie P. and Heath Miller are coming up huge (and Ben had an excellent second half) but the execution on offense and defense was off last night.

What are your thoughts as to getting pressure and pressuring defenses?

1. dont let the team panic or question themselves.

2. time for an emotional game. scrap the businessman like approach and winning professionally. the steelers need to approach the bengals like theyre pissed and wanna whip some ass and bury it when theyre done.

3. run willie. replace a few of the play action plays with 3-5 step drops (last play of the season last year- 10 yd pass to santonio going for 60+ and a td).

4. if there are any scheming "aces in the hole", or if we are still just playing vanilla due to weaker competition, its time to unleash the dogs.

5. never use ben as a media tool. his poker face was horrible as he tried to convince the media all the throwing he would get in would be during pre game practice and warm ups. i didnt buy it, and neither did the broncos.

6. the no huddle/spread em out offense should be used as a punch to the jaw, not an attempt to get off the mat.

as opposed to last seasons lacidaisical coaching approach, i think this years staff has pressed (along with the players) and possibly over thought itself or allowed the team to become complacent for 2 of 6 games. i'll take it, but i'll expect growth and improvement.

i really wanna see a bit more defensive emotion other than polamalu tackling cutler by his head.

Steel Pit
10-23-2007, 02:42 AM
I agree with a lot of the things that have been pointed out in this thread, good observations by many of you.

#1. I think that Arians attempts to confuse the defense is often times confusing to his own offensive players. Some of his packages, and the plays that he calls from the packages, are totally confusing to everyone involved except the defense. I've seen too many packages with a variety of personnel changes. There's just no way that the Steelers have had sufficient practice time with these multitude of packages.

#2. Why do the Steelers run so much from a VERY-INEFFECTIVE Singleback formation? Man, are they missing the obvious here? Runs from this formation are consistently STUFFED. Why do they insist on running into this brick wall time and time again. Give Willie Parker a FULLBACK, other than Davis, to lead block for him. Last nights game showed Davis lead blocking, or attempting to lead block, and time after time you saw his assigned defender making the tackle on Parker. LEAD BLOCK WITH KRIEDER PLEASE!

jjpro11
10-23-2007, 02:57 AM
I agree with a lot of the things that have been pointed out in this thread, good observations by many of you.

#1. I think that Arians attempts to confuse the defense is often times confusing to his own offensive players. Some of his packages, and the plays that he calls from the packages, are totally confusing to everyone involved except the defense. I've seen too many packages with a variety of personnel changes. There's just no way that the Steelers have had sufficient practice time with these multitude of packages.

#2. Why do the Steelers run so much from a VERY-INEFFECTIVE Singleback formation? Man, are they missing the obvious here? Runs from this formation are consistently STUFFED. Why do they insist on running into this brick wall time and time again. Give Willie Parker a FULLBACK, other than Davis, to lead block for him. Last nights game showed Davis lead blocking, or attempting to lead block, and time after time you saw his assigned defender making the tackle on Parker. LEAD BLOCK WITH KRIEDER PLEASE!

we ran to the left way too much also. its either up the middle or to the left. mix it up just a bit more. one of parker's long runs was to the right. i think it was more of a counter play. but you gotta keep the defense guessing. when the defense overloads on one side, audible to the opposite side sometimes.. parker has the speed to get around the edge and outrun everyone lined up on the other side of the field.

Galax Steeler
10-23-2007, 05:01 AM
The Steelers definitely have the threat to strike from anywhere on the field. It just doesn't work too well when the OL doesn't give the QB enough time to throw the deep ball accurately.

Agreed if you ain't got time to throw it then it ain't going to work.

Steeldude
10-23-2007, 06:11 AM
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

the vertical game is mostly BR's fault. he has yet to learn how to throw the long ball. it's generally a hanging short pass. he did this in college too. his mechanics are also poor when throwing long. he tends to lean back rather than follow through.

most of BR's plays come on broken school yard plays. he needs to read the WRs quicker and get rid of ball sooner.

Rob64
10-23-2007, 06:45 AM
I think we should start using the 3 TE formations more against the blitzing tactics teams use on us. Miller and Spaeth are good recievers and Tuman is OK too. We could max protect more and maybe hit Holmes deep when teams blitz 6 or 7 on us. Isn't that why BA wanted the 3 TE's for and we drafted Spaeth?

X-Terminator
10-23-2007, 09:00 AM
the vertical game is mostly BR's fault. he has yet to learn how to throw the long ball. it's generally a hanging short pass. he did this in college too. his mechanics are also poor when throwing long. he tends to lean back rather than follow through.

most of BR's plays come on broken school yard plays. he needs to read the WRs quicker and get rid of ball sooner.

I agree with this as well. I thought Ben had a QB coach? He obviously isn't doing much to improve Ben's mechanics, because I still see him throwing off his back foot an awful lot. Even his mechanics on the WR slip screens aren't very good. I also agree that he needs to get rid of the ball sooner - more 3 and 5 step drops would be nice. I like that he always wants to make a play, and having a porous OL doesn't help, but he still holds onto the ball way too long at times.

Counselor
10-23-2007, 10:48 AM
I couldnt agree with you more. Ben isnt Carson, Brady or manning. We need to go back to steeler football. Run first.... We faced the worst run defense in the league and we got pass freaking happy.I think between davenport and parker they should have had 40 carries between the two of them. It's funny to me when willie struggles how quickly we are to abandon the run. But yet when benny was fumbling and throwing ints in the first half we kept throwing. I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

You are kidding right? We're barking up the wrong tree here. I have complete faith in our offense---we came back from 14 points down (twice) to tie the game.

I'm a bit concerned about our defense not getting off the field.

BTW---"Benny" had the same amount of interceptions and one more TD pass than Cutler and everyone on this board is saying how good Cutler is---gimme a break people.

varmintjcl
10-23-2007, 01:49 PM
I see Ben holding the ball too long because he's too busy running with it as the O line hasn't given him any protection. I don't see that that same problem for the so called elite QB's. I don't think the problem is Ben.
And to comment on that one hand touchdown catch by Moss it sure looked to me like he pushed off just before he caught the ball.
And, I think the NFL has a serious officiating problem they need to work on.

Big D
10-23-2007, 05:17 PM
You are kidding right? We're barking up the wrong tree here. I have complete faith in our offense---we came back from 14 points down (twice) to tie the game.

I'm a bit concerned about our defense not getting off the field.

BTW---"Benny" had the same amount of interceptions and one more TD pass than Cutler and everyone on this board is saying how good Cutler is---gimme a break people.

i'm not saying I dont have faith in our offense. I"m simply saying we tend to abandon the run if willie comes out struggling. We did the same thing last year. And yes denver did crowd the box but they did the same thing against tomlinson and lamont jordan.