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View Full Version : Icy Issues: Why Isn't Big Ben Considered Elite?


alittlejazzbird
11-16-2007, 09:07 PM
While I'd much prefer him to keep flying under the radar, it's obvious now that the media is finally getting a clue that we have an elite quarterback in Pittsburgh...
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Icy Issue: How come nobody talks about Ben Roethlisberger as an elite NFL quarterback?

Icier Response: Apparently people just can?t believe it?s possible to be so good so young.

The Pittsburgh signal caller stormed onto the National Football League stage in 2004, leading the Steelers to an improbable 15-1 season in his rookie campaign. For an encore in 2005, he merely became the youngest quarterback to lead his team to a Super Bowl title. After a series of well-publicized off-the-field and health issues that led to Pittsburgh?s 8-8 campaign in 2006, Big Ben is back and better than ever here in 2007.

With a 110.2 passer rating (a figure virtually unheard of just 20 years ago), Roethlisberger is second only to New England?s Tom Brady (131.8). And, with 22 TD passes, he?s third behind only Brady (33) and Dallas media-darling QB Tony Romo (23).

You wouldn?t know it if you measured the two quarterbacks by hype and headlines, but Roethlisberger is actually more productive than Romo if we look at TDs per attempt. Romo has needed 292 pass attempts to reach his 23 TDs (1 TD every 12.7 attempts). Roethlisberger has reached 22 TDs with just 242 pass attempts (1 TD every 11.0 attempts).

Roethlisberger also has a phenomenal 92.2 career passer rating ? the same rating as Brady and just 2.0 points behind Peyton Manning, who?s widely perceived as a statistical juggernaut and has had the benefit of playing most of his games indoors. Given the same advantage, it?s reasonable to assume that Roethlisberger?s career passer rating would be well ahead of Manning?s right now.

The bottom line is that Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback by any measure but national media acclaim. And at just 25 years old, history tells us that Roethlisberger?s best years are still ahead of him.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20631957/

Atlanta Dan
11-16-2007, 09:29 PM
Ben had horrible playoff performances in 2004 (when more people are paying attention), had a horrible SB (when everyone is watching) after 3 excellent playoff games in 2005, and a hexed 2006. Combine that with the impression (fostered not only by the media but some of his prior coaches) that Ben was a "game manager" and it is going to take more than an excellent first half of the 2007 season to get to being perceived as worthy of elite status.

He steps up to the level right below Peyton (who is in his 10th year) and Brady (who is in his 8th year) in the eyes of the media if he plays well in Foxboro in 3 weeks (IMO that will draw Pats-Colts ratings if the Steelers are 10-2 and the Pats are 12-0) and in this year's playoffs.

Once the media pegs you it takes time to shake off initial impressions.

By way of comparison, Marino almost immediately was regarded as elite, Elway did not get there until "The Drive" in his 4th season, and even Brady did not get that rep until the Pats second SB ring in 2003.

OTOH it seems as if, as a member of football royalty, Peyton has been regarded as elite since around his junior year at Tennessee (I recall a fawning "So Good So Young" description of Peyton on the cover of SI his second year in the league).

moedap
11-16-2007, 09:46 PM
He steps up to the level right below Peyton (who is in his 10th year) and Brady (who is in his 8th year) in the eyes of the media if he plays well in Foxboro in 3 weeks (IMO that will draw Pats-Colts ratings if the Steelers are 10-2 and the Pats are 12-0) and in this year's playoffs.

Imagine if the Pats are 11-1 and we are 10-2. That would be a real ratings bonanza. The other incredible thing about Big Ben is he gets a lot of his yards on those 3rd and Longs when the defense KNOWS its pass.

Edman
11-16-2007, 09:56 PM
Just wait until this year's playoffs. Assuming the Steelers make it of course. We know Ben is good, but playoff performances will tell us wether Ben truly is in Brady's class when it comes to playoff clutch. That will greatly affect his standing in the football world. I'm confident he has the mentality and skills to do it.

tony hipchest
11-16-2007, 10:11 PM
OTOH it seems as if, as a member of football royalty, Peyton has been regarded as elite since around his junior year at Tennessee (I recall a fawning "So Good So Young" description of Peyton on the cover of SI his second year in the league). interesting point. peyton was "allowed" 27 interceptions in his 1st season and all was forgiven (timewarp to 2007 vs SD where he throws 6 int and all still is forgiven)

ben wasnt given that luxury, ever.

The bottom line is that Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback by any measure but national media acclaim. And at just 25 years old, history tells us that Roethlisberger’s best years are still ahead of him.

the bottom line is this-

you know all the hype eli manning has received in NYC just because of his pedigree?

just imagine if they had drafted ben and went 15-1 in his 1st season.

how would the NYC media react if their 2nd year QB won them a superbowl?

and what if the "King of New York" crashed his motorcycle and almost died a few months later?

and if ARod can cash in for $270 mil, ben certainly woulda been given a mulligan for '06.

and how would the media treat the giants if they were led by the #2 rated passer in the game, #2 rusher and #1 overall defense?

ben would have the worlds undivided attention.

yet in pittsburgh there is a set of constants that can shield a qb's accomplishments on a national recognition level.

blue collar town, with blue collar players
a team built on defense
a team built on the run
the qb is never anything more than the straw that stirs the drink

Crushzilla
11-16-2007, 10:19 PM
blue collar town, with blue collar players
a team built on defense
a team built on the run
the qb is never anything more than the straw that stirs the drink

And if Belicheat doesn't feel obligated to run up the score by continuing to trample undermatched teams, Ben is right in the thick of MVP talks.

Roethlisberger wins an MVP and the entire league (and all the fans of those... other teams) are forced to recognize.

That's the only way he gets the respect he deserves. Even if we take down our 6th this year, it will certainly be because we had the league's leading rusher and best ranked defense.

If you told me 3 years ago that a nearly undefeated season his rookie year and a Super Bowl ring in his second didn't cut it, I would have slapped you with a trout.

EDIT: Not directed at you, Tony... you don't deserve the patented 'Zilla Trout Slap

tony hipchest
11-16-2007, 10:54 PM
EDIT: Not directed at you, Tony... you don't deserve the patented 'Zilla Trout Slap
lol. no sweat on the edit 'zilla. i caught your verbage....

(although i must say, the chicks dig tonys "fur bearing trout slap" ) :toofunny:

as for brady as mvp, i can make a stronger case for favre, moss, or ben. brady is no more the MVP than he was last year, the year before that, or any other year he wasnt voted as the MVP.

they run up the score to pad stats accumulated on skills that were built by cheating.

i see the same value in holding a gun to the head of a liquor store clerk for a quick and easy $200.

Crushzilla
11-16-2007, 11:14 PM
they run up the score to pad stats accumulated on skills that were built by cheating.

I just hope the voting panel sees things the same way.

Without considering the manner in which most of those touchdowns were scored and the supporting cast, Brady is obviously the "paper" favorite.

Perhaps my perception of who is to be awarded is skewed since the last three winners, Manning, Alexander, and Tomlinson, all broke touchdown records like Brady is on course to do.

Granted, all of those players were major contributors on their high quality teams that season, which is what the award SHOULD be about.

The undoubted leader on an elite team that recovered from an 8-8 last season, got a new head coach, and were written off by a lot of the "experts," should certainly deserve TOP consideration.

Whether or not he is considered, I just hope he continues to play like he does deserve it.

EDIT: I also CERTAINLY see Favre. He's winning games with basically no support cast on offense.

I'd say Ben has the Comeback Player of the Year wrapped up regardless.

fansince'76
11-16-2007, 11:20 PM
yet in pittsburgh there is a set of constants that can shield a qb's accomplishments on a national recognition level.

blue collar town, with blue collar players
a team built on defense
a team built on the run
the qb is never anything more than the straw that stirs the drink

This is why Ben will be lucky to get a nod to the Pro Bowl this year, never mind MVP consideration. Don't be surprised if Derek Anderson makes it in as the 3rd QB behind Brady and Manning, especially if the Browns get a WC berth in the playoffs.

tony hipchest
11-16-2007, 11:30 PM
This is why Ben will be lucky to get a nod to the Pro Bowl this year, never mind MVP consideration. Don't be surprised if Derek Anderson makes it in as the 3rd QB behind Brady and Manning, especially if the Browns get a WC berth in the playoffs.nah. brady has pissed in the face of the pro bowl by claiming injury and appearing at a celebrity golf event. he would rather spend a week rehabbing his injured shoulder by beating off to paris hilton pics at home, than to attend the pro bowl.

ben is in this year (along with manning) and anderson may get in by bradys default. ben and james harrison wrote their ticket monday night vs. the ravens, just like bob sanders wrote his against the steelers on MNF 05 and jamal williams wrote his against the steelers on MNF 06. both them guys were deserving, as is ben and james.

plus, with fan voting you gotta give the edge to steelers :tt02: :jammin:

Preacher
11-16-2007, 11:32 PM
This is why Ben will be lucky to get a nod to the Pro Bowl this year, never mind MVP consideration. Don't be surprised if Derek Anderson makes it in as the 3rd QB behind Brady and Manning, especially if the Browns get a WC berth in the playoffs.

I don't know.. D.A. hasn't single-handedly won a game for them yet... Ben did last week... and will probably do that again.

Crushzilla
11-16-2007, 11:36 PM
nah. brady has pissed in the face of the pro bowl by claiming injury and appearing at a celebrity golf event. he would rather spend a week rehabbing his injured shoulder by beating off to paris hilton pics at home, than to attend the pro bowl.

ben is in this year (along with manning) and anderson may get in by bradys default. ben and james harrison wrote their ticket monday night vs. the ravens, just like bob sanders wrote his against the steelers on MNF 05 and jamal williams wrote his against the steelers on MNF 06. both them guys were deserving, as is ben and james.

plus, with fan voting you gotta give the edge to steelers :tt02: :jammin:

After seeing the fan's decisions thus far, I am going to have to believe that those millions and millions of fans out there that hate cheaters and *ssholes are going to outweigh the Pats lovers. I mean Manning in the lead so far of fan voting?

I guess most of America doesn't get NBC, especially last weekend.

fansince'76
11-16-2007, 11:40 PM
I don't know.. D.A. hasn't single-handedly won a game for them yet... Ben did last week... and will probably do that again.

Like Crush said earlier, he's never gotten the credit he's due from his 1st two seasons, and he won a ring in the second one. One bad game by the Steelers from here on out, and Ben will go right back to being a "game manager" in the eyes of the media and the comeback against the Browns will be completely forgotten.

OX1947
11-16-2007, 11:41 PM
How much more crying are Steeler fans gonna do about what the media or anyone thinks? Who gives a bleep. Just enjoy the games and enjoy that we have a franchise QB finally. I swear, somtimes I feel like I get on here and thnk I went to a Bengals forum or a Boston sports forum. All those morons do is cry like little girls.....

Crushzilla
11-16-2007, 11:43 PM
How much more crying are Steeler fans gonna do about what the media or anyone thinks? Who gives a bleep. Just enjoy the games and enjoy that we have a franchise QB finally. I swear, somtimes I feel like I get on here and thnk I went to a Bengals forum or a Boston sports forum. All those morons do is cry like little girls.....

Haha. Constructive.

If you just want to watch the game and enjoy the ride, then what are you doing on a message board?

fansince'76
11-16-2007, 11:45 PM
How much more crying are Steeler fans gonna do about what the media or anyone thinks? Who gives a bleep. Just enjoy the games and enjoy that we have a franchise QB finally. I swear, somtimes I feel like I get on here and thnk I went to a Bengals forum or a Boston sports forum. All those morons do is cry like little girls.....

Not crying - just pointing out the hypocrisy of touting Romo as the "2nd coming of Roger Staubach" after his five interceptions against the Bills and Manning's "heroism" in throwing 6 picks against the Chargers - performances like those by Ben would get him crucified.

tony hipchest
11-16-2007, 11:49 PM
I don't know.. D.A. hasn't single-handedly won a game for them yet... Ben did last week... and will probably do that again.

wow, he scored a thousand points and threw for a million yards against the bungles.

i think he has single handedly won every game for them this year. (not saying hes better than ben, just saying...)

the browns would be the typical loser browns with the quinn& frye combo.

Crushzilla
11-16-2007, 11:56 PM
the browns would be the typical loser browns with the quinn& frye combo.

Not to mention that Anderson's explosion contribute to the awesomeness of seeing the rising star, Brady Quinn, continue to mean squat to the NFL, especially since this time last year everyone was :blah: :blah: :blah:

First the buddy/buddy pictures, then the Draft Day freefall only to go to the Browns, and now the imminent passing of the torch with the trade of Frye being stopped DEAD in its tracks with D.A. :sofunny:

OX1947
11-17-2007, 12:03 AM
Not crying - just pointing out the hypocrisy of touting Romo as the "2nd coming of Roger Staubach" after his five interceptions against the Bills and Manning's "heroism" in throwing 6 picks against the Chargers - performances like those by Ben would get him crucified.

Im sure you watch the sportscenters and the CNNSI's on a weekly basis like most of us. And what do you see every week? Romo is the greatest QB ever, Adrian Peterson is the greatest Rb ever. The Colts suck because they lost 2 in a row. In the E! channel that post game commentary has become, I would think most people would stop listening to all the horsebleep thats on tv. My advice is stop readng and watching any thing on ESPN. Drama is all those idiots know now, no credable info. Thats why they keep hiring no talent clowns like Keyshawn Johnson and Emmitt Smith and move over real talent to the side in Tom Jackson.

Let Big Ben bring number 6 home to Pittsburgh and you'll see. They will start comparing him to Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas. And then next year in his first game, he'll throw 5 INTS and lose and then they'll say he has lost his desire and is the next Ryan Leaf. **** the media.....

fansince'76
11-17-2007, 12:06 AM
Im sure you watch the sportscenters and the CNNSI's on a weekly basis like most of us. And what do you see every week? Romo is the greatest QB ever, Adrian Peterson is the greatest Rb ever. The Colts suck because they lost 2 in a row. In the E! channel that post game commentary has become, I would think most people would stop listening to all the horsebleep thats on tv. My advice is stop readng and watching any thing on ESPN. Drama is all those idiots know now, no credable info. Thats why they keep hiring no talent clowns like Keyshawn Johnson and Emmitt Smith and move over real talent to the side in Tom Jackson.

Let Big Ben bring number 6 home to Pittsburgh and you'll see. They will start comparing him to Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas. And then next year in his first game, he'll throw 5 INTS and lose and then they'll say he has lost his desire and is the next Ryan Leaf. **** the media.....

The funny thing is, OX, I don't watch ESPN or read its articles - this is stuff I've read here recently posted by others who do read and watch ESPN. I HATE ESPN, personally. :chuckle:

Crushzilla
11-17-2007, 12:16 AM
The funny thing is, OX, I don't watch ESPN or read its articles - this is stuff I've read here recently posted by others who do read and watch ESPN. I HATE ESPN, personally. :chuckle:

I'll vouch for that.

We were at a party once in Reno back in '94 and Stuart Scott was acting up calling people out. Being the moderator he is, '76 had to step in.

I tried to hold him back, but... well... Stu has a glass eye now. They say he got hit in the face with a Juggs Machine. The part you never hear is that's '76's nickname...

But that's a whole other story.

Ya. ESPN does fuel off the drama. As I've said before, they have a business to run and a riveting "plot line," keeps the machine well lubed and running smoothly.

As far as giving a sh*t what they say... Well it makes for good conversation :smile:

The greatest unifying force is the common enemy. Who better than ESPN :hunch:

fansince'76
11-17-2007, 12:23 AM
I'll vouch for that.

We were at a party once in Reno back in '94 and Stuart Scott was acting up calling people out. Being the moderator he is, '76 had to step in.

I tried to hold him back, but... well... Stu has a glass eye now. They say he got hit in the face with a Juggs Machine. The part you never hear is that's '76's nickname...

But that's a whole other story.

Well, not quite - Stuart referred to an athlete as having "mad skillz" one time too many - THAT'S why he has a glass eye now. :chuckle:

Crushzilla
11-17-2007, 12:27 AM
Well, not quite - Stuart referred to an athlete as having "mad skillz" one time too many - THAT'S why he has a glass eye now. :chuckle:

That's right... Now I remember... Then he insisted that he was "as cool as the other side of the pillow"

Then I hijacked the crap out of this thread....

fansince'76
11-17-2007, 12:28 AM
That's right... Now I remember... Then he insisted that he was "as cool as the other side of the pillow"

Then I hijacked the crap out of this thread....

What you call hijacking, I prefer to call "thread evolution." :chuckle:

Preacher
11-17-2007, 12:37 AM
wow, he scored a thousand points and threw for a million yards against the bungles.

i think he has single handedly won every game for them this year. (not saying hes better than ben, just saying...)

the browns would be the typical loser browns with the quinn& frye combo.

I gotta disagree... With Edwards, Winslow, a better line, etc, they are decent.

Galax Steeler
11-17-2007, 04:12 AM
Either way the brownies are still loosers look at 2 of there losses came against a good pittsburgh team.

Atlanta Dan
11-17-2007, 07:52 AM
This is why Ben will be lucky to get a nod to the Pro Bowl this year, never mind MVP consideration. Don't be surprised if Derek Anderson makes it in as the 3rd QB behind Brady and Manning, especially if the Browns get a WC berth in the playoffs.

Except for the fact it probably is an incentive clause in their contracts for making it, I hope
Ben and Willie both miss the Pro Bowl.

To the extent that game ever made sense, the Pro Bowl is a concept that time has bypassed and only creates a potential for injuries.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day and for once Brady has the right idea - the Pro Bowl is a joke and should be abolished.

steel striker
11-17-2007, 04:25 PM
It does get old with other star qb's have bad games and win there are still media darlings. When Ben has a bad game they rip him a new one. Like in super bowl Xl when Ben did not have a great game but, we had enough to win and that is all that matters. Ben is just a winner pure and simple and his record shows that. Also he does not complain about anything he just goes out and trys to make plays for his team. even last year when he was sacked 14 times in two games against the hated ratbirds. Now Manning complained about his pass protection when we beat the coilts in out 2005 super bowl run. So you tell me which qb has more class? I'll tell you who Big Ben. Then take the colt vs pats this year looked lkike in the 3rd quarter when the pats did not get a call Brady was losing control screaming and whinning. Yet he is a media darling so, call it whatever you want. We will see in a few weeks and again in the playoffs what will happen I can't wait. :tt02::tt02::tt02:

Hines0wnz
11-17-2007, 04:36 PM
I would rather him be considered the 3rd, 4th or even 5th best because the more hype he receives then the more likely his agent will price him out of what the Rooney's will pay him. Let him play great and the others get the spotlight as long he keeps getting the Ws and SB rings. :wink02:

MasterOfPuppets
11-17-2007, 04:46 PM
I gotta disagree... With Edwards, Winslow, a better line, etc, they are decent.and what good does it do to have good recievers, and a crappy qb?....(see arizona)