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Lok1GT
12-11-2007, 08:29 AM
Can someone tell me, backed up by official NFL rules, why the Brady to Moss supposed "lateral" pass was not ruled as an incomplete pass or fumble?

I don't know all the rules, but know that a lateral pass is defined by the NFL as pass thrown "rearward" and can be dropped and recovered no matter the position of the field. Moss was at least two yards ahead of Brady, which should have been a forward pass.

This is not a Steelers Vs. Patriots argument, or a "we could have won the game if..." argument or an invitation to a flame war. I'm just looking for edumacational insight. Yes, i'm somewhat of a noob when it comes to football. :wink02:

Also, if someone can tell me if there's an official NFL rule source online, that would be appreciated.

mastermind1967
12-11-2007, 08:32 AM
I have to agree. I only saw the reply and I though it was a forward pass not a lateral. Even so, the Steelers never challenged the play.

Mikee
12-11-2007, 08:47 AM
I'm surprised the Steelers didn't even try to just challenge it to see what happened... Oh well!

tony hipchest
12-11-2007, 08:50 AM
it was a backwards pass. i.e. a lateral that was fumbled, picked up, and lateraled back.

good play. the same trickery helped us beat the bengals in the playoffs 2 years ago. we shoulda seen it coming.

Atlanta Dan
12-11-2007, 08:55 AM
As was discussed on Sunday, that play was the Ben to Randel-El back to Ben play that burned the Bengals in the 2005 playoffs

It was an effective play that was designed to burn Smith, but IMO it also was just one more example of Belichick giving the one finger salute to a team by running their own trickery against them.

The Pats definitely are running the 2007 FU tour. I bet they put up over 50 on the Jets this weekend for Camera Gate payback.

tony hipchest
12-11-2007, 09:15 AM
It was an effective play that was designed to burn Smith, but IMO it also was just one more example of Belichick giving the one finger salute to a team by running their own trickery against them.

The Pats definitely are running the 2007 FU tour. I bet they put up over 50 on the Jets this weekend for Camera Gate payback.
a definite 1 finger salute. no what else whas almost mocked? what has been the steelers winning formula for all these years?

run the ball
stop the run
control the clock
(tomlin preched these 3 things as soon as he was hired)

we did all 3 and still lost. we almost remained even in the turnover battle. some say cames come down to whichever team gets the lucky bounce of the ball.

others say the patriots are so good they can take your trick play and design it to one hop to the wr in order to freeze the defense. some say they are great enough to intentionally give the look of a shitty punt that is designed to go off angle and hit a player running down to block, in the back of the leg, creating a loose ball situation. and still others say they can single out any defensive player they want and punish him at will.

whatever. they did it all with an extra day of rest, lounging around the pool, on a short week. the patriots dusted off an old gameplan, worked on their red zone defense and were ready to go. for the 1st time i think a team conceded yards to willie and decided they would not let ben beat them with his arm. of course having a gimpy holmes helped.

the FU steelers was in full affect, and if there is a future matchup (personally im hoping to get out of round 1), the media, fans, or players wont have much to say about the steelers potentially knocking off the pats.

verks36
12-11-2007, 09:20 AM
If paulmalu was in do you think it would have helped alot of still a route

klick81
12-11-2007, 10:12 AM
If paulmalu was in do you think it would have helped alot of still a route

Not much of a difference. They were going after Mr. Smith.

Atlanta Dan
12-11-2007, 10:18 AM
If paulmalu was in do you think it would have helped alot of still a route

It is not as if Troy does not get burned on his aggressiveness - I recall Brady doing it to Troy with play action on a deep out pattern.

Pats simply got the job done.

Atlanta Dan
12-11-2007, 10:47 AM
(personally im hoping to get out of round 1)

I am willing to write off Sunday as the team deflating after Smith's second brain cramp on the lateral pass and the Pats being that good when they are focused.

Jax is a great test for whether this team is a likely candidate for one and done the first weekend in January. Lose on Sunday and I could see the division go out the window.

jjpro11
12-11-2007, 11:53 AM
If paulmalu was in do you think it would have helped alot of still a route

polamalu would have probably been blitzing and getting stuffed at the center of the line. i hate to sound like that, but our defensive gameplan was just flat out wrong in the 2nd half.

clarient
12-11-2007, 01:30 PM
it was a backwards pass. i.e. a lateral that was fumbled, picked up, and lateraled back.

good play. the same trickery helped us beat the bengals in the playoffs 2 years ago. we shoulda seen it coming.

I still don't understand how it was a fumble. Don't you have to have control of the ball first before losing it and calling it a fumble? It looks to me like an incomplete - he never totally caught it, just let it hit his hands and tumble off.

What if - total hypothetical - one of our guys had been right there when it happened and grabbed it off the ground? Would it be our ball because we recovered it, or would it have defaulted to an incomplete since Moss never had control of it?!

Lok1GT
12-11-2007, 01:47 PM
Wow... did ANYONE read my post? Or did they just read the title and all the response?
Other than the first two, which seem to agree with the confusion, all of the responses discuss the actual event or a similar event, but do not address my request for actual rules.

Well, i'm off to go find a more useful forum.

klick81
12-11-2007, 01:47 PM
I still don't understand how it was a fumble. Don't you have to have control of the ball first before losing it and calling it a fumble? It looks to me like an incomplete - he never totally caught it, just let it hit his hands and tumble off.

What if - total hypothetical - one of our guys had been right there when it happened and grabbed it off the ground? Would it be our ball because we recovered it, or would it have defaulted to an incomplete since Moss never had control of it?!

As soon as the ball is thrown or pitched backwards, it is considered a RUN play. Having said that, think of it as a botched ball transfer from player to player. If the player receiving the transfer drops the ball, it is considered a fumble.

klick81
12-11-2007, 01:49 PM
Wow... did ANYONE read my post? Or did they just read the title and all the response?
Other than the first two, which seem to agree with the confusion, all of the responses discuss the actual event or a similar event, but do not address my request for actual rules.

Well, i'm off to go find a more useful forum.

Google is your friend:

http://www.nflteamhistory.com/nfl_rules/backward_pass.html

Lok1GT
12-11-2007, 01:58 PM
Thanks. And i did miss Clariant's post. My apologies to him.
I tried gogling it and found nothing useful. What words did you google?

That's exactly what i thought. Now, unless someone can cough up some footage of the pass, i do believe Moss was at lest one yard ahead of Brady making it a forward pass.

klick81
12-11-2007, 02:02 PM
I tried gogling it and found nothing useful. What words did you google?



Try: "backwards pass in nfl rules"

As for the vid, sorry can't help there.

Mosca
12-11-2007, 02:05 PM
I backed it up on Tivo; he was very clearly about a yard behind Brady, and then Brady moved back 2 yards. Initially I wondered why it wasn't challenged, but the replay was very clear that it was a legitimate lateral, fumble, and then a legitimate second lateral.

Lok1GT
12-11-2007, 02:27 PM
Thanks.

jjpro11
12-11-2007, 02:31 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d804f7c96

fast forward to 2:30... its clearly legal by a good 2 yards both ways.

19ward86
12-11-2007, 04:10 PM
ive checked it a few times on nfl videos and it is a double lateral followed by a throw which is legal.

stillers4me
12-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Everybody thinks it's real cute to use the flea flicker against us.

Lok1GT
12-11-2007, 04:40 PM
Now that i see it again, it makes sense. I was probably blinded by rage when it happened and simply missed it. lol.
THANKS Klick81, Mosca and jjpro11!!!

That just looks like downright luck to me. I guess when you have it, you have it - and Pittsburgh, just doesn't have it. This may just not be our year.

7900rpms
12-11-2007, 05:23 PM
The play comes down to having some skill combined with a little bit of luck. Even in the press conference after the game Brady said that play wasn't intentional. Kinda like the punt that struck the inside leg of a Steelers player without him even knowing it hit him...............both were mainly luck.

Crushzilla
12-11-2007, 06:45 PM
The play comes down to having some skill combined with a little bit of luck. Even in the press conference after the game Brady said that play wasn't intentional. Kinda like the punt that struck the inside leg of a Steelers player without him even knowing it hit him...............both were mainly luck.

That's a load of crap.

If you look at the blocking and Brady's body language after the initial lateral to Moss it was COMPLETELY planned.

NOBODY from the OL pulled to block, the only person that was blocking to Moss was another WR. If that was designed as a screen, that has to be the worst screen ever created.

Brady took a few steps back and the other half of the offense made a wall around his front 180 degrees with the TE, RB, and an OLineman.

That was DEFINITELY by design, the only luck was that the ball didn't roll away from Moss.

I don't care if it was by design. I think it was a great call. Just as I thought it was a great call when I saw it two years ago.

Why does he have to lie about it?

THESE are the reasons I absolutely LOATHE the Patriots. Its one thing to beat us, then they have to lie in the press to make it seem like even when they F up, they run guys out of the building.

Get over yourself. CLASSLESS

EDIT: It does appear that some OLinemen were making their way down the line, but I'm still not convinced it wasn't by design.

Either they REALLY got held up and it was a great play by the Steelers (initially) or it was just to sell it.

Regardless. There's no way Moss' first instinct is to throw it back to Brady.

It may be a "broken screen emergency backup plan" so the Patriots don't lose yards and kill their average. There's no way his decision making can be that poor.

SECOND EDIT:
Watch Gaffney. He's already on the run again before Brady gets the ball back. There's no way that he could turn around and know what is happening in the time he had between looking at the LOS and taking off.

He sold it great. Like I said, it was a great play, but it was supposed to happen that way.

revefsreleets
12-11-2007, 07:40 PM
That was a sign of respect, too. The fact that they had to use trickery and deceit to be effective against our D, ala Boise St. vs. OU or Florida vs. OSU. Standing toe to toe didn't suit them, so, trickery.

But they disrespected the Steelers later by going for it on 4th down when field goals would have ended the game.

Crushzilla
12-11-2007, 08:08 PM
I'm having trouble finding where Brady said it wasn't intentional.

Does anyone have it or know if it is true?

Moss said it was a practiced play. That's all I could find.

fansince'76
12-11-2007, 08:18 PM
That was DEFINITELY by design, the only luck was that the ball didn't roll away from Moss.

There's no way that wasn't a designed play. And yes, Moss was lucky - because of his bobble of the initial lateral from Brady, Smith actually came close to making up the ground and knocking it away from Gaffney, which shows how badly burned he was on the play. I remember reading a remark by Brady that it supposedly never worked in practice, but it worked just fine during the game. A play doesn't work repeatedly in practice when everybody is going three-quarters speed at best, but it works in a live game situation? Bullsh*t. I want that team to lose. Badly. And preferably in the playoffs after going 16-0 during the regular season, which would really be a ball-breaker.

jjpro11
12-11-2007, 08:53 PM
maybe the fumble even helped the play.. our guys all saw the ball on the ground and lost composure, thinking they could make a big play while not even realizing it was a blatant lateral pass designed to be thrown again.

geo123
12-11-2007, 09:05 PM
I wondered if the ball hitting the floor was part of the play myself.

klick81
12-12-2007, 10:03 AM
Everybody thinks it's real cute to use the flea flicker against us.

Because our D bites on it like me on a big ass burrito.

Uncle Ced
12-12-2007, 11:12 AM
Can someone tell me, backed up by official NFL rules, why the Brady to Moss supposed "lateral" pass was not ruled as an incomplete pass or fumble?

I don't know all the rules, but know that a lateral pass is defined by the NFL as pass thrown "rearward" and can be dropped and recovered no matter the position of the field. Moss was at least two yards ahead of Brady, which should have been a forward pass.

This is not a Steelers Vs. Patriots argument, or a "we could have won the game if..." argument or an invitation to a flame war. I'm just looking for edumacational insight. Yes, i'm somewhat of a noob when it comes to football. :wink02:

Also, if someone can tell me if there's an official NFL rule source online, that would be appreciated.


Are you saying you didn't think it was a lateral? What game were you watching? I have watched the play aver and over again and it is CLEARLY a lateral. Have another look w/o you steeler glasses on and you will see the play more clearly.

rbryan
12-12-2007, 11:17 AM
Not sure where the confusion is. Same play we beat the Bengals with last year. It wasn't even close to being a forward pass.

klick81
12-12-2007, 12:05 PM
Are you saying you didn't think it was a lateral? What game were you watching? I have watched the play aver and over again and it is CLEARLY a lateral. Have another look w/o you steeler glasses on and you will see the play more clearly.

Troll, read the whole thread. He asked a question, it was answered. Now move on.

Uncle Ced
12-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Troll, read the whole thread. He asked a question, it was answered. Now move on.

Take it easy Captain Keyboard. Just here talking football. If you want to hold hands with steeler fans and sing kumbaya without outside opinions feel free to put me on your ignore list. Happy holidays.

Dino 6 Rings
12-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Hey there Uncle Ced. You posted an insult and were called out on it "Have another look w/o you steeler glasses on" and you also typed in CAPS, which everyone knows is akin to yelling. so if you're going to be offended over that, Go to your own board and allow Steelers fans to ask and answer football related questions without getting "defensive" or "offensive"

I bleed black and gold, it was a lateral, both safeties bit, it was a great call at that part in the game, the answer was given. Relax.

revefsreleets
12-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Seems every family has a weird creepy pederast uncle hanging around.

Now we've got one, too. Super.

klick81
12-12-2007, 02:38 PM
LOL...Captain Keyboard. That's a good one. Anway, if you're here to talk football, at least read the thread before posting your garbage. Mmmmkay?

steelpride12
12-12-2007, 03:08 PM
Well i hope in practice we work on not biting so hard on the flea flickers because we will only see it more and more if we don't start defending it and i bet you we see it again against the Pats if there is a round two during the playoffs.
Smith almost deflected the Lateral throw, but he still bit way to hard just imagine if it would have been a normal FF like the jets did.....he would have not even showed up on the TV screen!

SteelersJW
12-12-2007, 07:08 PM
That was bullshit. That pass was foward as hell. Everyone just got all exited because Gaffney beat Anthony Smith and they forgot to look at the first pass. The zebras are at it again!

klick81
12-12-2007, 07:39 PM
Not really!

fansince'76
12-12-2007, 07:43 PM
Smith almost deflected the Lateral throw, but he still bit way to hard....

The only reason Smith got anywhere near it was due to the mishandling of the initial lateral by Moss - if Moss wouldn't have bobbled that, he gets beat by 25+ yards.

Rhee Rhee
12-13-2007, 12:23 AM
i miss the days when it was chris hope and troy back there.... THOSE days were fun to watch... troy would knock the ball loose and chris would pick it up and run 40 yards for a TD