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HometownGal
12-14-2007, 08:42 AM
I make no excuses whatsoever for the Steelers lost to the Pats last week, but I can't help but wonder . . . . :scratchchin: As my Mama always said, once a cheat always a cheat.

Steelers Notebook: Did Patriots' defense know snap counts?

Friday, December 14, 2007
By Paul Zeise, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

New England was fined earlier this season for using videotape to try to steal defensive signals from the New York Jets, but did they find a way to steal the Steelers' snap counts as well?

That's the way it appeared Sunday in the Patriots' 34-13 victory against the Steelers at Gillette Stadium as the defense, in particular linebacker Mike Vrabel, seemed able to get a great jump on the ball several times. That seemed especially the case when the Steelers used silent snap counts to deal with crowd noise.

Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians said that Vrabel certainly did get off the line quickly a number of times, but he does not think it was anything deeper than just an observant player picking up trends.

"Anytime you use a silent count, there is an indicator, and, whether [the Patriots] were tipped off or not, it is not real hard to pick up on," Arians said. "And, for us, it is not as much of a thing that you are worried about the defense as you worry about your own guys getting off in a timely fashion, and that is a problem with it. Some teams try to time it up, and so you use alternate [snap counts] to try and throw them off, but [Vrabel] just got a good jump a couple of times.

Steelers guard Kendall Simmons said he knows Vrabel had a good beat on the Steelers' snap counts, but that is not unusual. Every team looks for an edge and figuring out trends can be a big one.

"I'm guessing [Vrabel] was [on to the Steelers' snap count] because he was doing a good job of timing it out," Simmons said. "Smart defensive guys do whatever they can to get the edge on you and, if they can jump the snap count, they will and, as long as the referees aren't calling it, it isn't offsides. We might see it as that, but [the officials] have to call it first."

Holmes healing

Santonio Holmes missed the two games before the loss Sunday at New England with a high ankle sprain and said his inactivity -- combined with the fact that he is not fully healed -- contributed to him not being a factor in the passing game. Holmes, who had only one catch for 13 yards, said he expects to be a much bigger factor this week.

He said, however, that his ankle continues to be troublesome because it is the kind of injury that takes some time to heal.

"I'm going to play this week and I don't think I am going to miss another game," Holmes said. "When adrenaline starts rushing during games, it really isn't a factor. But it is tough to go on and, if it wasn't such a short season for us, I would probably be out for at least a month. But the season is short in football, so you have to get back and get healthy as quick as you can."

Buckle your chin straps

The Jaguars, like the Steelers, pride themselves on playing a very physical brand of football. The games between the two teams traditionally have been slugfests with plenty of big hits from both sides.

And that's exactly what the Steelers are bracing for Sunday.

"It will be physical on both sides of the ball," said Steelers cornerback Bryant McFadden. "Anytime you think of a Jacksonville-Pittsburgh game, even going back to the days when they were in the same division, it was always a physical ballgame, and it still is. The game we played last year, it was a very intense game, a physical game, and went down to the wire. Both teams have kind of the same mind-set -- run the ball offensively, hitting you in the mouth defensively -- it is kind of a mirror image of two teams that are going to go at it pretty hard."

Quick hits

Linebacker Marquis Cooper, claimed off waivers Tuesday by the Steelers from Jacksonville, will wear No. 55 -- the number worn by outside linebacker Joey Porter before he was released by the Steelers and signed with the Miami Dolphins as a free agent after last season. ... The Steelers signed offensive guard Jonathan Palmer (6 feet 4, 321 pounds) to the practice squad. Palmer played at Auburn. ... Backup linebacker Andre Frazier (groin) did not practice for the second consecutive day. Also, receiver Hines Ward and offensive tackle Marvel Smith returned to practice after missing Wednesday as did McFadden, who sat out with an ankle injury.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07348/841657-66.stm

revefsreleets
12-14-2007, 09:23 AM
Did we use radios for the game? If so, that makes Willie's runs all the more impressive if the Pats knew they were coming.

Counselor
12-14-2007, 09:25 AM
Snap counts . . .I swore Vrabel was offsides on the first redzone series.

fansince'76
12-14-2007, 09:25 AM
Everything that team does is questionable, IMO, as long as Belicheat is HC there. It is what it is.

Counselor
12-14-2007, 09:28 AM
Everything that team does is questionable, IMO, as long as Belicheat is HC there. It is what it is.

Agreed. Did you hear Rodney Harrison say he "knew" the Hines Ward run was coming on 4th and 1? I thought that was interesting. How the heck did he see that coming?!

revefsreleets
12-14-2007, 09:31 AM
Agreed. Did you hear Rodney Harrison say he "knew" the Hines Ward run was coming on 4th and 1? I thought that was interesting. How the heck did he see that coming?!

Because I don't think I've EVER seen that play before.

The Pats fans hate it and will deny it up one side and down the other, but the damage is done.

ShutDown24
12-14-2007, 09:59 AM
When Ben is in the shotgun everyone and their grandma knows when the snap is coming. He almost always resets twice then snaps right after. This was what screwd us many times during the Jets game, I thought they had fixed it because against the Dolphins and Bungles I didn't notice it. However, when we played the Patriots he started doing it again and that was the first Vrable off-sides (Too close to call but he was off sides) he got that great jump right after ben reset the second time.

rbryan
12-14-2007, 10:00 AM
Nothing that you could tell me about them would surprise me. I believe the spygate incident was the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Patsies cheating. All things eventually come to light and so will this. Someone on Bellichicks staff will turn on him and spill the beans, its just a matter of time.

Atlanta Dan
12-14-2007, 10:05 AM
It is to the point the Pats are regarded as some superhuman form of life that can read the thoughts of opposing teams.

There are lots of ways to credibly guess snap counts without cheating to do it. As for Harrison "knowing" the Ward run was coming, IMO that is Rodney playing head games.

As HTG was saying about my Anthony Smith rants, it is time to look forward and not back.

fansince'76
12-14-2007, 10:07 AM
I believe the spygate incident was the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Patsies cheating. All things eventually come to light and so will this. Someone on Bellichicks staff will turn on him and spill the beans, its just a matter of time.

It didn't help matters that Goodell tried like hell to make the whole thing go away as expeditiously as possible like a good little lapdog for Kraft, either. Like I said, everything that team does from here on out is fair game to be questioned as long as Belichick is the HC there. Pats fans can keep their fingers jammed in their ears while going "la-la-la-la-la" all they want to over it, but it won't change things.

pmanning
12-14-2007, 10:29 AM
It is to the point the Pats are regarded as some superhuman form of life that can read the thoughts of opposing teams.

There are lots of ways to credibly guess snap counts without cheating to do it. As for Harrison "knowing" the Ward run was coming, IMO that is Rodney playing head games.

As HTG was saying about my Anthony Smith rants, it is time to look forward and not back.

The problem is that as in many cases, the poster didn't use or maybe didn't know, the whole comment of Rodney Harrison's. He said that he had seen that play run before a few times and when he saw Ward in motion then "he knew" that play was coming because Heinz, I guess, was a quarterback at one time (run/pass ??). I don't get to see a lot of Steeler games but it sounded like Ward running reverse plays or taking handoffs is not uncommon.

I thought it was a dumb play anyway given the circumstances. That's where the fault lies. And the reason the Pats won the game from what I could see had nothing to do with signs, but rather Pittsburgh couldn't stop Brady who passed on them all game. Nothing new there. He's been doing that to everybody all year.

Jman
12-14-2007, 11:31 AM
It is what it is. I agree. Having said that, I wouldn't put it past them. It is not too hard to know when Ben is passing though...He always steps one foot back when under center before the snap...now can defenders see that or know the play coming is another question...

PittPatriot
12-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Agreed. Did you hear Rodney Harrison say he "knew" the Hines Ward run was coming on 4th and 1? I thought that was interesting. How the heck did he see that coming?!


Hines is one of the most tough, versatile players in the league. If you don't go to him on 4th and 1 and you go with Davenport or Parker (the pats had 10 in the box) then you are playing right into the Patriots' hands.
I don't think stealing signals is going to help in such an intricate/complex league.
As for spygate references, I believe the Patriots were accused of stealing DEFENSIVE signals.

By the way, this is my first post ever on this board...I can't wait to come home to the 'Burgh for the Holidays!

Dino 6 Rings
12-14-2007, 11:59 AM
Vrabel is a veteran and did get some very "good jumps" on the snap count last week. The tackle needs to adjust his game if he's getting beat often or the running back needs to help pick up the block if its a problem during the game.

This week, last weeks game means nothing. We must beat the Jags and secure our spot in the playoffs and work toward taking ANOTHER AFC North Title.

tony hipchest
12-14-2007, 11:59 AM
Because I don't think I've EVER seen that play before.

The Pats fans hate it and will deny it up one side and down the other, but the damage is done.im just going off memory but i remember a. randle el scoring a 2 point conversion off the same (or extremely similar) play. (perhaps it was a direct snap to el as he was in motion. i wanna say it was in 04 vs. the giants and el bobbled the handoff (or snap) before he punched it in. it was the "hot potato" play.

im not sure if it was 04 or the year before, but hines led the league in 2 point conversions with 3; however, i think 2 were passes and the 3rd was an end around.

MyCuz64Furness
12-14-2007, 12:04 PM
"once a cheat always a cheat."

funny...I was just saying that to my partner this am...hes a Patriots fan and had to razz me today...I told him the only reason they are winning is cuz they cheat...and I said the same thing you just wrote :sofunny::sofunny:

jjpro11
12-14-2007, 12:26 PM
maybe vrabel is keeping an eye on the play clock.. we always take it down to 1 second before snapping it. it doesnt take a genius to realize that if we havent snapped the ball with 2 seconds left on the clock, we are going to snap it with 1 second left or take a penalty.

FAB802
12-14-2007, 12:32 PM
They have veterans on that defense and figuring out the snap patterns isn't that tough. We didn't score the way we're capable of and our 4th string safety is a moron. That's pretty much the ballgame right there.

FAB802
12-14-2007, 01:14 PM
are you being sarcastic?

anyone could tell that it was going to ward. no RB in the backfield and no WRs on the sides.

i spend the entire game saying either pass or run before each of the steelers' offensive plays.

You don't even need to steal our offensive signals to know what's coming. Except of course, when something is working.

IA Stiller
12-14-2007, 01:48 PM
Doesn't every DL and LB try to guess the snap count through the course of the game? I don't think that it was cheating, but more of Ben needing to change up the snap count a little. I think a reporter needed a good headline.

I thought Vrabel was off on a few of those though.

revefsreleets
12-14-2007, 02:02 PM
im just going off memory but i remember a. randle el scoring a 2 point conversion off the same (or extremely similar) play. (perhaps it was a direct snap to el as he was in motion. i wanna say it was in 04 vs. the giants and el bobbled the handoff (or snap) before he punched it in. it was the "hot potato" play.

im not sure if it was 04 or the year before, but hines led the league in 2 point conversions with 3; however, i think 2 were passes and the 3rd was an end around.

So the Pats are watching tape from several years and 3 OC's ago?

jjpro11
12-14-2007, 02:08 PM
we should have ran ward to the left.. that play had no chance with simmons and colon doing the primary blocking.

The_WARDen
12-14-2007, 03:38 PM
Stop! Please just stop with the excuses. :banging::banging::banging:

They were outplayed by a better team...accept it and move on.

HometownGal
12-14-2007, 03:55 PM
Stop! Please just stop with the excuses. :banging::banging::banging:

They were outplayed by a better team...accept it and move on.

Geez WARDen - pull the boxer shorts out of the rump, k? I think every Steelers fan alive knows we were beaten by the better team on the field last Sunday.

Because of Beliprick's underhanded tactics and until the day he retires or is beaten to death by one of his ho's' jealous husbands, everything surrounding the Pats is going to be suspect. A leopard (in this case - a braying jacka$$) never changes its spots.

The article was just some food for thought - don't shoot the messenger!

Preacher
12-14-2007, 04:07 PM
Funny.

I keep watching the Pats... and I keep thinking... no one is that good that consistently. I am convinced that there is still something going on. Period.

Dino 6 Rings
12-14-2007, 05:10 PM
Preacher, I tend to agree with that assessment, although I don't put it on the "knowing the snap count" what I am most "Interested" in is the lack of penalties called agains the O-line for holding. 26 straight pass plays without a holding call and the steelers blitzed 64% of the time in that game, no holding calls.

I have to wonder about that. It seems a little "too perfect" to me. I mean, a great o-line is one thing, NEVER getting called for holding in a league that it has been stated "you can call holding on every play" is kind of...odd to me.

revefsreleets
12-14-2007, 06:11 PM
I just keep going back to the Eagles game. That is one team that has no business being anywhere within 30 points of the Pats (if we are all to believe the hype and whatnot), yet they used hand signals instead of the headset and mikes, and almost beat the Pats in NE. If there was no precedent or no claims of tomfoolery in that department from the Pats, well, no smoke, no fire. But that isn't the case.

I'm not excusing the loss. We lost. But I don't trust the Pats organization or it's coaching staff at all. And I never will again.

Like I said before, think about it this way. If the Pats know the plays, then Parker's game is that much more impressive.

tony hipchest
12-14-2007, 08:01 PM
So the Pats are watching tape from several years and 3 OC's ago?im thinking they have the largest quality control staff actually watching the tape and putting the book together.

I'm not excusing the loss. We lost. But I don't trust the Pats organization or it's coaching staff at all. And I never will again. totally agree. hard to take anything they do as being on the up and up.

but the mystery of the known snap counts is settled-


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_542685.html
? Steelers center Sean Mahan and receiver Hines Ward said it was obvious that Patriots linebacker Mike Vrabel was reading Mahan's head movements to time his rush off the edge. "He did a lot of film work, and I guess he caught onto a rhythm that Sean was in," Ward said. "That's when you ask your running backs to do a lot more chipping on the end. That'll stop that speed rush. You won't come around there too often, that fast, if you have a guy constantly drilling you in the ribs."

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
12-14-2007, 08:06 PM
The only thing I am convinced about is the patsies are Fu****g cheaters.

FAB802
12-14-2007, 08:19 PM
If Hines knows that it's Mahan then why the Hell can't he smack him in the head in the huddle and tell him to knock it off? That guy's been the worst FA signing I can remember. He can't block me.

revefsreleets
12-14-2007, 08:23 PM
"Tells" will cost you money in poker, but they cost you football games in the NFL.

Amateur hour, Mahan. That's actually the first overtly bad thing I've said about the guy this year, too. I hope he steps up his play so it's also the last.

tony hipchest
12-14-2007, 09:12 PM
"Tells" will cost you money in poker, but they cost you football games in the NFL.

Amateur hour, Mahan. That's actually the first overtly bad thing I've said about the guy this year, too. I hope he steps up his play so it's also the last.i would like to think this tipping off of the play has been the root of the problem with alot of pressure getting to ben this year and somewhat weak play from the center.

perhaps the patriots just exposed a tiny chink in the armor that can easilly be buffed out by the mayhan (and the team) finally realizing one of the simplest things was giving the count away.

its like in "Invincible". if the linemans knuckles are white its a run, and if theyre pink its a pass.

lucky for us, game 14 is not to late to diagnose and hopefully fix the problem with a minor adjustment.

Atlanta Dan
12-14-2007, 09:26 PM
Funny.

I keep watching the Pats... and I keep thinking... no one is that good that consistently. I am convinced that there is still something going on. Period.

76 Steelers
84 49ers
85 Bears
89 49ers

Teams are that good occasionally - Dwight White said before the Steelers went out and waxed Tampa Bay 42-0 in 1976 that the Steelers would win easily even if Tampa Bay knew what plays were being run.

I hate the Pats but with that offense they are the best team I have seen since the early 90s Cowboys - their dominance is so surprising because I did not think it could be done under the cap. - their infusion of an entirely new WR corps under the cap is extraordinary - they are well coached and that good to me

Rhee Rhee
12-14-2007, 09:46 PM
i think it's just cause the patsies linebackers are so old they've seen everything and thats how they make up for their lack of athleticness

The Patriot
12-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Guys seriously. If you hear the QB yell "ice blue" before the play and snap the ball exactly five seconds later several times over the course of a game, eventually you'll make a connection. It's not that difficult. So yes, I bet Vrabel did know some of the snap counts before the play but he didn't need a camera.
These new accusations are bound to reach the Patriots before sunday. Goodbye Jets.

LVSteelersfan
12-14-2007, 10:13 PM
their dominance is so surprising because I did not think it could be done under the cap. - their infusion of an entirely new WR corps under the cap is extraordinary - they are well coached and that good to me

Do you honestly think they are UNDER THE CAP legally? They are such cheating jerks, they are probably paying those so called underpaid players like Moss under the table. Do you think those greedy bastards will actually take less money than they think they are worth just to be on a winning team? Players today are not that noble.

tony hipchest
12-14-2007, 10:21 PM
Guys seriously. If you hear the QB yell "ice blue" before the play and snap the ball exactly five seconds later several times over the course of a game, eventually you'll make a connection. It's not that difficult. So yes, I bet Vrabel did know some of the snap counts before the play but he didn't need a camera.
These new accusations are bound to reach the Patriots before sunday. Goodbye Jets.holy shit are you paranoid!!!!!

what "new accusations" are you even talking about?

:blah: warning: prefabricated bulletin board material in the works :blah:

read the freaking thread (in other words...follow along) or refrain from typing into thin air.

by saying "did patriots know the snap count" doesnt = accusation of cheating.

mayhan was tipping the calls and what he was doing has been diagnosed and will be corrected, and if it "dont kill you, it will only make you stronger". thanks.

the steelers definitely got punched, but most certainly not knocked out.

but then again, i guess whoever knocked out jack lamberts teeth thought they were big, bad, mean, and tough too.

Aussie_steeler
12-14-2007, 10:52 PM
These new accusations are bound to reach the Patriots before sunday. Goodbye Jets.

Back keeping an eye on the mob are we?

Well have fun typing them on your PATS board.

Another good deed for Patriot nation. :wave:.

MACH1
12-14-2007, 10:53 PM
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w11/bcrab/dogbert.gif