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View Full Version : You guys got screwed by your coach


ShrewBeer
01-06-2008, 09:24 AM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

Pentheon
01-06-2008, 09:28 AM
Id say we got screwed more by the refs. Where was the holding on that 2 pt conversion? Ward made a nice ass catch and they call it back..

even madden and michaels were saying they didn't see any holding.

blah

ShrewBeer
01-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Id say we got screwed more by the refs. Where was the holding on that 2 pt conversion? Ward made a nice ass catch and they call it back..

even madden and michaels were saying they didn't see any holding.

blah

refs suck. pats have been getting some good calls lately, but against the colts its always a one-sided game. you just have to accept that you gotta play better than a three point game to win it.
but yea, refs screwed ye too. from the review, to the phantom calls. steelers dbs were getting away with murder though. there was plenty that the jags were getting away with too.

dont worry, we will demolish these jags in the divisionals

Bus36RollsUrlacher
01-06-2008, 09:35 AM
Well, the the head coach does not call the offense. True, Ben had been getting the underneath stuff (although he had Holmes underneath when he went for the homerun to Davenport which got picked), but I think that getting 5 yards on 1st down fooled themselves. Arians did get way conservative on that drive, and he, like coaches sometimes do, overthink the situation. 1:30 is a lot of time to still win a game, and they ended up giving the ball back with 2:30+. I hate it when OC's don't just run their offense. Let the players play and take what the defense hase given you. It sure as heck was not on the ground.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
01-06-2008, 09:38 AM
Hey PATS fan, your welcomed here...
and I agree with you.....

Brady would never run it on 3rd and 7 with 3 min left in the game....

Bad call and thats what lost us the game

Counselor
01-06-2008, 09:44 AM
refs suck. pats have been getting some good calls lately, but against the colts its always a one-sided game. you just have to accept that you gotta play better than a three point game to win it.
but yea, refs screwed ye too. from the review, to the phantom calls. steelers dbs were getting away with murder though. there was plenty that the jags were getting away with too.

dont worry, we will demolish these jags in the divisionals


Hey, had our team played better from the start, the refs calls wouldn't have mattered, so there is no use blaming them. As for our coaches calls----Perhaps I would have made a different call myself, but if the call would have worked the coaches would have looked like geniuses. Hindsight is 20/20. All in all, I'm happy keeping our coaches, and you can keep your "coach of the year".

You'll have to forgive me Shrew---but I'll be rooting for those Jags against you. But good luck anyway. (PS I'll be rooting for the colts and whoever else you play as well---but I'm sure you understand.)

HometownGal
01-06-2008, 09:45 AM
Hey PATS fan, your welcomed here...
and I agree with you.....

Brady would never run it on 3rd and 7 with 3 min left in the game....

Bad call and thats what lost us the game

Yep - that one play lost us the game. Riiiiiighto. :dang::dang: I think you need to watch the game again, BBFW. Every Steelers unit on that field last night played a part in that loss. There isn't one play or player that was the reason for our demise and who should unfairly shoulder all of the blame.

Steeldude
01-06-2008, 10:01 AM
Well, the the head coach does not call the offense.

i am sure tomlin was behind that call.

Mosca
01-06-2008, 10:08 AM
Tomlin on the QB sweep: "That was something we worked on all week and we felt good about it. We actually had the look and we didn’t execute it. Good job by them."

Roethlisberger: "That was a designed run play. We called it just to run. It was a good play, it was man, but they got outside and we were just trying to protect the ball."

It's not the play call; it's rarely the play call. It's being talented enough to enforce your call onto the other team. The Steelers had the matchup they wanted and failed to execute when the chips were on the line.

If you can't do that, you don't move to the next round. And you shouldn't. We finished right where we should have. I would have liked another few weeks of joy, but this was pretty good, coming off of last year.

HometownGal
01-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Tomlin on the QB sweep: "That was something we worked on all week and we felt good about it. We actually had the look and we didn?t execute it. Good job by them."

Roethlisberger: "That was a designed run play. We called it just to run. It was a good play, it was man, but they got outside and we were just trying to protect the ball."

It's not the play call; it's rarely the play call. It's being talented enough to enforce your call onto the other team. The Steelers had the matchup they wanted and failed to execute when the chips were on the line.

If you can't do that, you don't move to the next round. And you shouldn't. We finished right where we should have. I would have liked another few weeks of joy, but this was pretty good, coming off of last year.

Great post Tom. :thumbsup: I hope now this belabored subject can be properly laid to rest.

ShrewBeer
01-06-2008, 10:10 AM
i am sure tomlin was behind that call.

the call goes through the head coaches headset, and he could have changed it if he wanted.
i guess my overall feeling was that a loss to a better team does not hurt as much as a loss to a team that you very well easily could have and should have beat. those are the painful ones

Preacher
01-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Tomlin on the QB sweep: "That was something we worked on all week and we felt good about it. We actually had the look and we didn?t execute it. Good job by them."

Roethlisberger: "That was a designed run play. We called it just to run. It was a good play, it was man, but they got outside and we were just trying to protect the ball."

It's not the play call; it's rarely the play call. It's being talented enough to enforce your call onto the other team. The Steelers had the matchup they wanted and failed to execute when the chips were on the line.

If you can't do that, you don't move to the next round. And you shouldn't. We finished right where we should have. I would have liked another few weeks of joy, but this was pretty good, coming off of last year.

Very nice post.

And true. Execution killed us (no pun intended).

Some day we will learn that we are no longer a team that can simply run the clock out when we get the lead... heck, we never have been that team... unless we were in the lead by 11 points or more.

Eckrew
01-06-2008, 10:55 AM
It didn't work week 10 vs. Cleveland, and it didn't work last night.

True, a lot of crappy play preceded that series, but you've got to be aware enough of what has worked and what hasn't. All that other "crap" was behind them at that point in the game. It is "playing not to loose" - no matter what thread you post it in. :computer:

Bus36RollsUrlacher
01-06-2008, 11:02 AM
Tomlin on the QB sweep: "That was something we worked on all week and we felt good about it. We actually had the look and we didn?t execute it. Good job by them."

Roethlisberger: "That was a designed run play. We called it just to run. It was a good play, it was man, but they got outside and we were just trying to protect the ball."

It's not the play call; it's rarely the play call. It's being talented enough to enforce your call onto the other team. The Steelers had the matchup they wanted and failed to execute when the chips were on the line.

If you can't do that, you don't move to the next round. And you shouldn't. We finished right where we should have. I would have liked another few weeks of joy, but this was pretty good, coming off of last year.



Sure, they had the look, etc., but you did not have many "called" run plays over 7 yards all day. Most of Ben's came from scramble plays. I just have to disagree with you on it rarely being the play call, because sometimes you do make the wrong call for the situation. 3rd and 7 in your territory with 3 minutes to go, you oponent has timeouts, and the 2-minute warning is not a running play in my book. Tomlin does get the call in his headset, but as he has stated many times, he lets his coaches coach. That may change some as he gets experience. He'll go back and look at the season and see that there were probably several situations where he should have taken control.

SteelDogFan
01-06-2008, 11:14 AM
Everyone stop the maddness and know that three interceptions in the first half of a playoff game in the NFL you will lose and thats it. The fact that they came back from down 18 tells you that without the ints it may have been a blow-out by the steelers.

Oh yeah one of the ints was for a TD.

Atlanta Dan
01-06-2008, 11:21 AM
It's not the play call; it's rarely the play call. It's being talented enough to enforce your call onto the other team. The Steelers had the matchup they wanted and failed to execute when the chips were on the line.

If you can't do that, you don't move to the next round. And you shouldn't. We finished right where we should have. I would have liked another few weeks of joy, but this was pretty good, coming off of last year.

Agreed this team ended up where it should have based on its play since the bye week and preseason expectations (although IMO the diviision was as much due to the collpase of teh Benglas and Ravens as anything else)

As for the call, of course Tomlin and Ben are going to say it was the right call - to me it made sense if your only concern is a turnover since your D will shiut Jax down as long as Jax gets the ball anywhere outside the Steelers 40. But this D has shown since October it is vulnerable to closing drives.

Playing not to lose on offense works if your D will not lose it for you - given the down/distance/time remaining and play of the D this year the Steelers should have taken the risk of a second or third down pass.

Bill
01-06-2008, 11:29 AM
Three interceptions and a kick returned 90+ yards are the reasons we lost, plain and simple. You can't overcome mistakes like that. Jacksonville was very lucky, because except for those mistakes, the Steelers out hit and outplayed them. I think Tomlin had them ready to play, and he sounded frustrated by the interceptions too, as when he spoke to Andrea Kramer at half-time

Bill
01-06-2008, 11:32 AM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:
We may have lost, but we'll take our 5 Superbowl rings and get to work on next season. I don't think I need a Patriots fan to make me feel better by telling me that they will get the Jags for us.

As for me, I'll be rooting for the Jags against the Pats.

Stlrs4Life
01-06-2008, 11:57 AM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:



Exactly, excellent post.

Mosca
01-06-2008, 11:58 AM
Sure, they had the look, etc., but you did not have many "called" run plays over 7 yards all day. Most of Ben's came from scramble plays. I just have to disagree with you on it rarely being the play call, because sometimes you do make the wrong call for the situation. 3rd and 7 in your territory with 3 minutes to go, you oponent has timeouts, and the 2-minute warning is not a running play in my book. Tomlin does get the call in his headset, but as he has stated many times, he lets his coaches coach. That may change some as he gets experience. He'll go back and look at the season and see that there were probably several situations where he should have taken control.

Looking back, we can both agree that obviously it didn't work!

I don't have any special, extra football knowledge; I'm far from an expert. But let me tell you why I reasoned it the way I did. I hate looking back at the plays that didn't work and thinking they were the wrong plays; it's only when I predict the play and then see it run that I think it was the wrong play, like in the run-run-pass-punt days. I certainly didn't expect to see a QB sweep left, and I'm sure the Jags didn't either.

The Steelers saw the Jags with a look that they had a play ready for; most likely the Jags were expecting a roll out to the right and a short pass. So, the Steelers used a play that they had for that situation, a QB run to the left.

Recalling the play from memory, BR took the snap from the shotgun and ran right, with a lineman pulling; was it 79? I'm not sure, but I think it was a tackle. Colon or Essex. And maybe there was a back, but the lineman was in position. There were two defenders, a linebacker and a corner. The tackle turned upfield about halfway to the sideline, and BR turned up inside him, and was trapped by the two defenders; 4th down.

What went wrong, as I see it:

First, the play was never disguised, never sold as a different play. There was never any doubt where it was going. Next time you watch the Pats, watch how well Brady and the backs play the "where's the ball" game, watch how many times the camera starts to follow the wrong guy. The Pats sell the fakes better than any other team in the NFL, IMO. Everyone follows through to the end, even after the handoff. The Steelers' fakes are half-hearted, and they die once the actor is out of the picture. If BR would have just lifted his arm and looked downfield, the defenders would have had to respect the sprint-out pass look that the play should have had. Instead, it looked plain vanilla.

Second, the play could still have worked, if the tackle hadn't turned upfield and not hit anyone. If he'd have continued going outside and picked a guy to hit, the outermost guy, BR had a chance to race the inner guy to the corner of the first down marker and the angle. Once BR turned up inside the tackle, it was over.

Third, BR should have kept going outside anyhow, on the off chance that the defenders would have whiffed, or that he would have won the race to the sidelines. I think he wanted to stay in bounds though. Part of the reason for the run was to force the Jags to use the time out if the play failed; an incompletion would have saved the TO for them. When the play failed, the Jags used the TO. A minute later, that was a big deal.

Fourth, as it played out, the running play still eventually took the Jags to 4th and 2, and the Steelers defense had multiple opportunities to stop them. Heck, a booming punt from our highly touted 4th round rookie punter would have been nice right there, instead of that weak 37 yarder. Nothing like making the Jags start from the 15 yard line with a nice Aussie roll, eh?

Even after that play failed, we had half a dozen opportunities to win, and the call of the running play gave us at least one extra one because of the time out the Jags had to call. Sure, looking back, you can say that it was the wrong play because it didn't work. I'll agree with that. But, I think that it could have worked, and that if we were truly a team that deserved to advance to the next round, it should have worked and would have. But it didn't, and we aren't.

And not to pick out that particular play; there were at least a dozen that we could have made to advance, but we didn't... and we didn't.

Anyhow, that's why I wrote what I did.

BlastFurnace
01-06-2008, 12:40 PM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

You are exactly right. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

There are 3 QB's going to the Pro Bowl, and Ben is the only one out of the 3 that his own coaches would not put it in his hand to get that 6 yards. Jacksonville wasn't stopping us all 2nd half and the coaching staff didn't play to win it. They played not to lose.

Whoever made the calls for the 2nd and 3rd down plays played scared, not with confidence.

Elvis
01-06-2008, 12:47 PM
Id say we got screwed more by the refs. Where was the holding on that 2 pt conversion? Ward made a nice ass catch and they call it back..

even madden and michaels were saying they didn't see any holding.

blah
Thought me John and Al were the only ones that saw that play. That was a joke call and I hope that it counts against that refs' score for his/her check...:sofunny:
Good luck to the Patriots and Jaguars but I am pulling for the Chargers today and the Buccaneers.
:tombstone21

fansince'76
01-06-2008, 12:51 PM
Id say we got screwed more by the refs. Where was the holding on that 2 pt conversion? Ward made a nice ass catch and they call it back..

even madden and michaels were saying they didn't see any holding.

blah

Leave the crying about refs to Holmgren. We lost because we let Garrard run up the middle for 30 yards on 4th down.

OX1947
01-06-2008, 12:56 PM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

One of the worst holding calls I have ever seen and the sad thing about it was it ruined a great catch. The Steelers lost on their last drive. Not going for the first down on their own 20. Stupid decision. Im not playing arm chair QB here and I dont care if I have never played or coached in the NFL before, but not going for a first down when your special teams sucks balls and you're at your own 20 AND!!!!! Your offense just scored 3 TDs in a quarter, what the hell told you that you wouldn't get at least ONE freakin first down to end the game.

Mosca
01-06-2008, 12:58 PM
You are exactly right. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

There are 3 QB's going to the Pro Bowl, and Ben is the only one out of the 3 that his own coaches would not put it in his hand to get that 6 yards. Jacksonville wasn't stopping us all 2nd half and the coaching staff didn't play to win it. They played not to lose.

Whoever made the calls for the 2nd and 3rd down plays played scared, not with confidence.

But... but.. we DID put it in his hands to get those 6 yards. Ben is the only QB in the Pro Bowl that the coaches would have given the ball to to RUN for those 6 yards. Not Manning. Not Brady. Roethlisberger. A decent block, and we aren't having this discussion.

MasterOfPuppets
01-06-2008, 01:18 PM
A decent block, and we aren't having this discussion.

:toofunny:....how many of those did you see yesterday ???

MasterOfPuppets
01-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Three interceptions and a kick returned 90+ yards are the reasons we lost, plain and simple. You can't overcome mistakes like that. Jacksonville was very lucky, because except for those mistakes, the Steelers out hit and outplayed them. I think Tomlin had them ready to play, and he sounded frustrated by the interceptions too, as when he spoke to Andrea Kramer at half-time
you do know that we did retake the lead AFTER all that ??? so i guess you CAN overcome mistakes.....:coffee:

Stlr4ever
01-06-2008, 01:25 PM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

I appreciate your input without taunting. You guys probably wanted our team in NE next weekend. Because you guys have been winning AFCCs and SBs at our team's expense. Well..., it is what it is--have to accept it as a fact of life.
Anyway, coming back to our coach's decision, he relies on his assistant coaches to send in the right plays. He is not an offensive expert. He is a rookie coach and he is still learning. Yeah, our passing game was working fairly well. But for some reason(perhaps, you are right), our coaches decided to go with cowardly plays. Shame on them.

HometownGal
01-06-2008, 01:33 PM
But for some reason(perhaps, you are right), our coaches decided to go with cowardly plays

finishing the sentence . . . .

"which our team did not execute".

Stlr4ever
01-06-2008, 01:52 PM
Looking back, we can both agree that obviously it didn't work!

What went wrong, as I see it:
Second, the play could still have worked, if the tackle hadn't turned upfield and not hit anyone. If he'd have continued going outside and picked a guy to hit, the outermost guy, BR had a chance to race the inner guy to the corner of the first down marker and the angle. Once BR turned up inside the tackle, it was over.

The bottom line is, great teams do not make the type of mistakes that our team made last night. Reasons: players lacking in character; lacking in talent; coaching not up to par...etc. It could be combination of all those factors. Our OL is definitely lacking in talent. Imagine how great Brady could have been if he didn't have a great OL.

Rhee Rhee
01-06-2008, 02:36 PM
the gutsy play would have been a fake punt on 4th... no one would see it coming...

The_WARDen
01-06-2008, 03:26 PM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

the head coach has turned this once physical team into a bunch of pansies...especially the D.

He also panicked going for 2 from the 12 yard line.

Yes, he turned to Martyball on our last possession...thought we got rid of Martyball when Cowher left. Guess not.

HometownGal
01-06-2008, 03:46 PM
Look out Loretta - the boo birds have swooped down upon us. Head for the hills!

DP_Steeler
01-06-2008, 04:46 PM
Three interceptions and a kick returned 90+ yards are the reasons we lost, plain and simple. You can't overcome mistakes like that. Jacksonville was very lucky, because except for those mistakes, the Steelers out hit and outplayed them. I think Tomlin had them ready to play, and he sounded frustrated by the interceptions too, as when he spoke to Andrea Kramer at half-time

No doub that in the final analysis we lost this due to the pathetic first half, but given that the Jags and other circumstances alowed us back into the game we shouldhave taken that second life and run with it. Instead all we did was go three-and-out and throw the momentum back to the jags as we did too many times in too many late stages of games this year.

As I recal, there was a time-out leading up to the 3rd and six play which means that there must have been a discussion on the sidelines about the played which would be called ... I don't care if it worked in practice or at any given time, it was NOT the play to use at that time in the game. The recent failure with the run indicated that short quick pases where necessary. For that I blame not only the OC, but the head coach - no I don't want him fired, but I hope he learned a valuable lesson - play to win!

TackleMeBen
01-06-2008, 04:50 PM
Look out Loretta - the boo birds have swooped down upon us. Head for the hills!

they were out last night during the game a few times... :flap:.

HometownGal
01-06-2008, 04:52 PM
they were out last night during the game a few times... :flap:.

They're free flying around here today, too. Unfortunately, I misplaced my BB gun. :m16:

DP_Steeler
01-06-2008, 04:53 PM
Leave the crying about refs to Holmgren. We lost because we let Garrard run up the middle for 30 yards on 4th down.

Don't necessarily think that was the main reason ... knowing that the defense has not been able to stop anyone late in a game, should have been more incentive to get the first down and run out the clock - if you get the first down on 3rd and six, you don't have to face Garrard and face the possibility of him killing you with his arm or his legs.

Howeer, once we failed in getting the first down, we failed again to stop Garrard. I always say that despite the best defensive line-up you may have, the best defense is an offence that stays on the filed and moves the clock ... even if had not gained any more yards after gaining the first down (refering back to the 3rd and six) we at least have better possition to punt, and leave the Jags with less time.

DP_Steeler
01-06-2008, 04:55 PM
But... but.. we DID put it in his hands to get those 6 yards. Ben is the only QB in the Pro Bowl that the coaches would have given the ball to to RUN for those 6 yards. Not Manning. Not Brady. Roethlisberger. A decent block, and we aren't having this discussion.

Ben can run, but not at that stage of a game ... that is quite a gamble!

stillers4me
01-06-2008, 05:40 PM
the head coach has turned this once physical team into a bunch of pansies...especially the D.



Pansies??? I dare you to look James Harrison in the eyes and say that. :bouncy:

On second thought.......I'd dare you to say it to Tomlin.

I.C. Lights
01-06-2008, 05:56 PM
Leave the crying about refs to Holmgren. We lost because we let Garrard run up the middle for 30 yards on 4th down.

Yep. I've been a fan for a long time too, and most of the bad calls we've (or any other team) has ever gotten just fade away in my mind. I can only remember a handful of games where I thought the refs truly precluded a team from winning, and I don't think this was one of them.

In the end, we made more mistakes. This will be good fuel for the fire, and will help us win it all next year.

debo3osu
01-06-2008, 06:00 PM
I don't understand why everyone is not infuriated about the initial decision to go for the 2-point conversion when it was 28-23 with 10+ minutes left. Sure Ben threw three picks, and sure the refs weren't great, but it is a lot more difficult to control the outcome of a play than it is to evaluate whether to go for one or two points. Given the amount of points already scored by then, it is pretty amateur to assume that the only opportunity the Steelers would get was a field goal and that they HAD to go for two to get within three. Other "experienced" coaches will always tell you to never go for two with that much time left on the table, you never know when you'll need that point. And, in my mind, that turned out to be the worst play call of the game. If they get the extra point and make it 28-24, then score the next touchdown and make it 31-28, that game would have gone to overtime and maybe, just maybe, we'd be booking plane tickets to New England.

Losing is hard enough, but knowing that those 2 points we lost by were there to be had and were passed up by the coaches because of bad decisions is inexcusable. Hopefully Tomlin never makes that mistake again.

therocksteeler
01-06-2008, 06:16 PM
Yep - that one play lost us the game. Riiiiiighto. :dang::dang: I think you need to watch the game again, BBFW. Every Steelers unit on that field last night played a part in that loss. There isn't one play or player that was the reason for our demise and who should unfairly shoulder all of the blame.

Ok...I agree with several aspects of last nights game led to our loss. However, the Off. coach B.A. left his "yahballs" at the door last night. There is no way you have your pro bowl quarterback run the ball on third down. Esp. when he had been lighting it up with slants and timing route passes. Lastly, no matter how well or bad you play during a game fans and players alike will remember the play that stands out at the end where the tide was turned. In all sports whoever your cheering on when they blow a tire, loose the ball, miss the shot, dont take advantage of time on the field. Last night night we lost it when that play was called in to QB run....sadly.

The_WARDen
01-06-2008, 07:15 PM
Look out Loretta - the boo birds have swooped down upon us. Head for the hills!

Sorry, GO TEAM! <drink koolaid> *gulp*

:dang:

revefsreleets
01-06-2008, 07:20 PM
I don't understand why everyone is not infuriated about the initial decision to go for the 2-point conversion when it was 28-23 with 10+ minutes left. Sure Ben threw three picks, and sure the refs weren't great, but it is a lot more difficult to control the outcome of a play than it is to evaluate whether to go for one or two points. Given the amount of points already scored by then, it is pretty amateur to assume that the only opportunity the Steelers would get was a field goal and that they HAD to go for two to get within three. Other "experienced" coaches will always tell you to never go for two with that much time left on the table, you never know when you'll need that point. And, in my mind, that turned out to be the worst play call of the game. If they get the extra point and make it 28-24, then score the next touchdown and make it 31-28, that game would have gone to overtime and maybe, just maybe, we'd be booking plane tickets to New England.

Losing is hard enough, but knowing that those 2 points we lost by were there to be had and were passed up by the coaches because of bad decisions is inexcusable. Hopefully Tomlin never makes that mistake again.

There are two separate philosophies on this one. I actually concur with Tomlin's take (and I disagreed with Cowher's) that you always take the risks early, rather than late. Why put all your eggs in one basket at the very end of the game? Your defense could score, special teams could come up with a play, there are a lot of variables that can come into play, so it's always better to take the risks early.

fansince'76
01-06-2008, 07:47 PM
Sorry, GO TEAM! <drink koolaid> *gulp*

:dang:

We suck! Fire everybody! Sell the team, the Rooneys don't know what they're doing! We'll never win another game! :coffee:

bloom95355
01-06-2008, 07:49 PM
:dang:
what really lost the game for us was poor decisions and the interceptions by the jags.

failure on the first conversion had Tomlin go for two again :banging:.

if we had taken the extra point we would've been up 31-28 at the end, and Scobee's field goal would have had us go into overtime.

if they had chosen to take the easy points, we just might be the ones gearing up for the next round.

if onlys and woulda, coulda, shouldas is right......

we'll have another chance next year..... so.....until then.....

GOOOOOOOO STEEEEEEEEELERS!!:tt02:

The Duke
01-06-2008, 07:56 PM
We suck! Fire everybody! Sell the team, the Rooneys don't know what they're doing! We'll never win another game! :coffee:

willie fumbled and he didn't even play! :toofunny:

Mosca
01-06-2008, 08:43 PM
Sorry, GO TEAM! <drink koolaid> *gulp*

:dang:

Yeah, why don't you actually think for a while and show reasons why you think what you do, showing specific examples and some real analysis, instead of spouting off crap. Garbage is garbage, and you've added nothing to the discussion but a lot of worthless opinion. You want to rant, go yell out the window, or kick your dog. It's a lot easier than having any kind of insight, after all.

Rotorhead
01-07-2008, 10:52 AM
I have to say, since we overcame the 18pt defecit and pulled ahead, the turnovers and poor ST play really was NOT the reason we lost. Sure it would have been a blowout without them, however if you recall, we were AHEAD, even after all that. I understand the philosophy of running to protect a lead, it makes sense on some occasions. You run down the clock, our Def was playing well etc. However the flaws in that series are obvious:
1. Our running game was a failure all game
2. Our top running back was not playing (which resulted in #1)
3. All of our scoring drives came from a Pass first mentality
Now I would have agreed with the calls if we were ahead by 3pts even. But being ahead by only 1pt, that is not enought to win a game with that much time remaining. The 2pt conversions, well that was just simple math, he was trying to make it a 3pt game and, at that point, was actually playing to win instead not lose.

One last thing, I feel we can dislike some playcalling, or coaching if we want. This is a forum for pete's sake. If you dont agree you are free to state your opinion as to why. It seems the negative posters in this forum lately are the ones that shouldn't be (Moderators etc). If I dont agree with what you ahve to say I can post why (not just lock the threads). Yeah there were alot of threads about the same thing, but it seems they should have been merged and not all locked. We are Steeler fans, we get emotional about games like this. I dont necessarily like Arians, and it is my right to post I would like him gone. You dont have to agree, you dont have to rebut. There are others that share my opinion that post their reasoning why they agree, and there are others that disagree and post reasons why they disagree. There there are yet others that post they I am a "Boo Bird" or "Not a real fan" or post stupid smiley's construing they are bored of the conversation. I am still a Steelers fan just like most of you. I am sure not everyone likes everyone on the team or decisions, but that is what a forum is for. If you dont have anything to contribute to the conversation, do what I do, dont post in it.

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 11:03 AM
Did a Pats come on our board and try to call out our coach? So if the Pats do somehow lose, can I call out his coach for one call in a 60 minute game as the "failure" for the entire game? Seriously...there is never 1 play that decides a game. If there was, it wouldn't be played for 60 minutes.

Ben can run for 7 yards and has shown us that ability in the past. The Jags had been playing heavy on the right side all night, forcing him left, if Essex makes a block inside, instead of extending too far out, its a first down and we can Kneel.

Jman
01-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Id say we got screwed more by the refs. Where was the holding on that 2 pt conversion? Ward made a nice catch and they call it back..

even madden and michaels were saying they didn't see any holding.

blah

:iagree:

I would comment that our coach played to win-evident by the come back. We need some pieces to our team that I am hopinf we get next year. Overall, a very good game. Probably one of the better games you'll see in the playoffs.

Jman
01-07-2008, 11:09 AM
Did a Pats come on our board and try to call out our coach? So if the Pats do somehow lose, can I call out his coach for one call in a 60 minute game as the "failure" for the entire game?

That's a fair question (second one); one to which I would simply answer, yes.

eafratitpm3
01-07-2008, 11:41 AM
Yep - that one play lost us the game. Riiiiiighto. :dang::dang: I think you need to watch the game again, BBFW. Every Steelers unit on that field last night played a part in that loss. There isn't one play or player that was the reason for our demise and who should unfairly shoulder all of the blame.

No, that one play didn't lose the game for us it was that 2nd to the last series. The steelers are notorius for playing conservative when they get the lead, most times in the past years it has worked but in certain situations you need to play to not give the other team the ball. This year mostly in the 2nd half of the season our D has been suspect. In the situation we were in we were backed up close to our goal line and if we didn't get the first down we were going to give the ball back to Jax with time on the clock. Most importantly as bad as our ST's were this year as a Steeler fan I could honestly say that I figured the Jags would get the ball back with good field position and with plenty of time left. That series will haunt me for many many days to come.

The_WARDen
01-07-2008, 12:23 PM
We suck! Fire everybody! Sell the team, the Rooneys don't know what they're doing! We'll never win another game! :coffee:

The Steelers are great! Wow, talk about great coaching and flawless execution.

This team is brilliant! When's the parade?

:coffee:

fansince'76
01-07-2008, 01:01 PM
The Steelers are great! Wow, talk about great coaching and flawless execution.

This team is brilliant! When's the parade?

:coffee:

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

Mosca
01-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Did a Pats come on our board and try to call out our coach? So if the Pats do somehow lose, can I call out his coach for one call in a 60 minute game as the "failure" for the entire game? Seriously...there is never 1 play that decides a game. If there was, it wouldn't be played for 60 minutes.

Ben can run for 7 yards and has shown us that ability in the past. The Jags had been playing heavy on the right side all night, forcing him left, if Essex makes a block inside, instead of extending too far out, its a first down and we can Kneel.

Thank goodness, someone else who saw exactly the same thing I did. The play didn't fail because the Jags were ready for it, the play failed because the lead blocker didn't hit anyone. And even after that play, we were still ahead. That play didn't put us behind in the score, it was everything that happened in the next 120 seconds that did.

And I certainly don't mind people criticizing; I mind people running into the room and screaming "WE SUCK" and running out. You want to say why, perhaps? Back it up with a little analysis, maybe? I'll never criticize a poster personally, but I have no problem criticizing posts that bring more smoke and heat and less clarity and light to an issue.

Regarding Arians specifically, I have yet to read a decent rebuttal to the "execution rather than play calling" argument. It's easy to look backwards and criticize the play calling after it didn't work, but unless you can tell me that you were looking at the TV screaming "GOOD LORD BRUCE, FOR HEAVENS SAKE DON'T CALL THE QB SWEEP LEFT!" then the problem was the execution. Play calling was the problem in the run-run-pass-punt years, but it hasn't been an issue this year.

ShutDown24
01-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Pats fan here. yeah, im probably not very welcome, but i was rooting for the steelers last night, and it was miserable.
yeah, there were mistakes on both sides of the ball, and the officials blew a few calls. but your coach played not to lose. he tried to play it safe, and didnt play to win at the end. ben had been getting the underneath stuff all game, so why, when you needed to run out the clock, did the coach call three runs? the three runs wouldnt be so bad if the first two runs netted more than three yards. but a quarterback draw on third and seven? that just screams "i dont have confidence that my qb wont screw this up". im pissed at the coach, so i cannot imagine how you guys feel. the guy might as well have punted on second down because it would have been safer.:dang:

Considering there where three linemen holding on the 4th & 2 run where Gerrard would have been sacked the coaches weren't the only ones that screwed us...

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 02:23 PM
There were flaws in our team all over the field. Not from the sidelines.

Kick Coverage, dropped passes (washington in the endzone, Davis on a 1/2 back screen) there were holding calls, or lack there of, questionable or not, you have to be good enough to over come those things. We weren't good enough to get over 3 interceptions, 5 sacks and a lackluster running attack.

Bottom line, the coaches don't block, tackle, throw or catch.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Ok, to those who are saying one play doesn't make the game.. you are wrong..


There are plays in EVERY game for BOTH teams that they could do better, if this, if that... But what really counts is making the right calls near the end, when the game is on the line.


Some mistakes people point out.

1. the special teams on the kickoff to Maurice Jones Drew.. Everytime the Steelers seem to get a score on offense.. they seem to kick deep on the kickoff and always give up a big return.. Kick a popup to an upman.. I've been saying it all year.. Don't give the other team that kind of momentum after you just scored.

2. 1st Int by Ben.. Remember Tommy Gun ran that same stinken play twice agasint the Jags before and RASHEAN MATHIS picked it off AGAIN.. Why did they go back to that play when Mathis specifically said years ago that he knows they run that play.. and he jumped the route.. not Ben's fault.. Ben even said he made a nice play on that... which leads me to believe that they didn't know Rashead Mathis's history of picking that very same play off numerous times before.

3. The interception by their nose tackle?? That was just a really nice play.. Looked like he was falling foward and down.. then his eyes moved up, and that big guy was able to adjust his body to get up in the air to pick that off, quite amazing if you ask me.

4. The int throw attended for Davenport was not smart on Ben's part.. but Ben is Ben.. he trys to make things happen.. get over it.

5. The play call on 3rd and 6 was just lame.. reallly horrible. You could even argue the running on 2nd down. Execute or no execute, execute a pass next time!!.. The Jags were tough again'st any type of running all day, both games.. against everyone.. Why not leave it up to Ben's arm to get it done.. we know he can do it.. and the Jags could not stop the Steelers passing all game even when they knew it was coming.

I thought going into this season the Steelers would be a lot less conservative that Cowher's group. But, as the season went along they went back to their old habits.. and sometimes even worse. The only reason the Steelers won the Super Bowl a few years ago is b/c the Steelers came out gunning, throwing fooling teams with gadget plays..etc.. Then they sat on the lead, barelly holding on to it too b/c of Cowhers conservatism on third and short he would run it when everyone knew he was going to run it.. A dink pass was always open.. but he would never take the chance.. Now, we have Tomlins group doing the same thing.. with a less talented line, and no Bettis to run threw people.

Tomlin going for two too early wasn't smart either. .You never do that unless it's within 5 minutes or absolutely have to.. and your defense has stuffed them all year.. Not just a quarter of football.

Ben running on 3rd and 6 in his own end like that left a lot of room for error to get the first down.. Lets his arm win the game.. this isn't Bubby Brister.


Oh, and that dang fade route.. quit running it.. working or not working to Hines.. QUIT RUNINNING THAT FADE.. The steelers do not have Randy Moss, or a tall receiver with good hands.. That is a give up play until the Steelers get the right personel to use that play,, History shows that the Steelers are NOT good running that play.

The holding calls could have gone any way.. every game.. who knows.. you can only deal with what you can control..

Oh, and starting off passing being sucessful.. only to use it as an oppurtunity to back off the defense for the running game was not smart either. Do something until the other team can prove that they can stop it..

Why is it so hard to figure out what most knowledgable people believe to be common sense?

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 02:32 PM
So on 3rd and 6, if we pass, and say the ball is dropped by Miller, Ward, Washington or any other receiver that has at times dropped a ball, and the clock stops, and the Jags don't need to use a time out, do we then have an entire day of "why not run it there and eat clock or force them to use a time out and rely on our defense"

Seriously...Hindsite is 20/20. We took a gamble, on a Ben play that he is fully capable of making with his legs. We missed. It happens. We focus on the holes on this team in the off season and get ready for the next chapter in our story.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 02:55 PM
So on 3rd and 6, if we pass, and say the ball is dropped by Miller, Ward, Washington or any other receiver that has at times dropped a ball, and the clock stops, and the Jags don't need to use a time out, do we then have an entire day of "why not run it there and eat clock or force them to use a time out and rely on our defense"

Seriously...Hindsite is 20/20. We took a gamble, on a Ben play that he is fully capable of making with his legs. We missed. It happens. We focus on the holes on this team in the off season and get ready for the next chapter in our story.


Rely on Steelers defense.. rely on any team to stop another team with only 1/4 or 1/2 the field to go to get in field goal range? Not going to happen in most cases. . History this season has shown the Steelers not to be able to close the deal.. and it happened again. Stop being so dang conservative like Steve Young always says about the Steelers.

It really doesn't matter.. time out or no time out.. there was plenty of time left no matter what for them to drive less than half a field to get in field goal range. I would have rather tried to pass since they were passing all over the Jags for most of the game.. I mean. what did they have to lose?.. A lot of people didn't think the Steelers could even win this game.

They played conservative in the most crucial part of the game.. I was jumping up and down yelling for them not to run on that play.. or play conservative during that entire series..

Lord Stiller
01-07-2008, 02:57 PM
It really doesn't matter.. time out or no time out.. there was plenty of time left no matter what for them to drive less than half a field to get in field goal range. I would have rather tried to pass since they were passing all over the Jags for most of the game.. I mean. what did they have to lose?.. A lot of people didn't think the Steelers could even win this game.

They played conservative in the most crucial part of the game.. I was jumping up and down yelling for them not to run on that play.. or play conservative during that entire series..

Yep. In that situation you have to be aggressive and go for the kill. Hit Ward or Miller over the middle and ice the game

Instead, they pussed out with play not to lose approach and it cost them.

I am sure that Tomlin will learn from this mistake. Arians, I'm not so sure

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 03:00 PM
Yep. In that situation you have to be aggressive and go for the kill. Hit Ward or Miller over the middle and ice the game

Instead, they pussed out with play not to lose approach and it cost them.

I am sure that Tomlin will learn from this mistake. Arians, I'm not so sure

Heck.. yea.. I would have liked to have seen them run a pass play on 2nd down too..

but no.. but.. people can question that thought.. I would understand..

This is the train of thought I thought would be the difference b/t Cowher's group and Tomlin's Group.. but I guess not. it's dissapointing.

Execute that quarterback run or not.. the defense executed the stop!! That play had to be done to perfection for it to work.. There is room for error when you go to shot gun and set back and look for receivers, Ben on a roll out or something to give him more than one option which running a play like that did.

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 04:22 PM
Yep. In that situation you have to be aggressive and go for the kill. Hit Ward or Miller over the middle and ice the game

Instead, they pussed out with play not to lose approach and it cost them.

I am sure that Tomlin will learn from this mistake. Arians, I'm not so sure

And Ben drops back, and gets sacked and loses even more yards...what then?

Shoulda Woulda Coulda, its not the reason we lost the game. Special teams and O-line play killed us all season, and are what lost us the game Saturday.

fansince'76
01-07-2008, 04:25 PM
One last thing, I feel we can dislike some playcalling, or coaching if we want. This is a forum for pete's sake. If you dont agree you are free to state your opinion as to why. It seems the negative posters in this forum lately are the ones that shouldn't be (Moderators etc). If I dont agree with what you ahve to say I can post why (not just lock the threads). Yeah there were alot of threads about the same thing, but it seems they should have been merged and not all locked.

From the Code of Conduct:

1. Do not post topics or replies containing:

-Subjects which have already been discussed numerous times (please search first).

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=354

Merge all the threads that said essentially the same thing? You want to read a thread where at least the first 5-6 posts are all merges saying "Boy, didn't that call on 3rd-and-7 suck?"

The reason threads were locked were to prevent redundancy and to reduce clutter on the board, not because of some overlying agenda to squelch people's opinions.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 04:31 PM
And Ben drops back, and gets sacked and loses even more yards...what then?

Shoulda Woulda Coulda, its not the reason we lost the game. Special teams and O-line play killed us all season, and are what lost us the game Saturday.


Then it happens.. the Jags are still going to get great field position no matter what unless the Steelers make that 3rd down. But, if Ben does get sacked..they get to kill the clock a little more like you wanted in the first place :)


yes, Special teams kills us.. but they never accepted that there special teams couldn't get the job done.. COntinuing to kick down the field on kickoffs after a score knowing that so many times after a score the other team makes a big run back on them. Also, coming down un-controlled on special teams and missing there lanes.. out of control...

It was a given the line was a problem. But the line did pretty darn good while they passed all over the jags when they wanted too. Besides.. you can't just sit back and play conservative.. especially when they were not picked to win by a lot of so called experts. Even the fans after the game generally were not that dissapointed.. So, what really were they to loose by passing or giving Ben more options on that 3rd down play? really/.. give me a break.

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 04:38 PM
I'll give you a break, sure..you wanted a pass play on 3rd and 7, I wanted solid play out of 53 guys for 60 mins.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 04:39 PM
I'll give you a break, sure..you wanted a pass play on 3rd and 7, I wanted solid play out of 53 guys for 60 mins.

You did get that.. they played hard.. but crucial situations demand smarter decisions. They are what they are on Special teams at this point of the season..

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 04:44 PM
No, I got solid play from 53 guys at different points in the game.

An interception return for a touchdown also means 11 guys missed making a tackle on that play. A kick return to the 1 means 11 guys missed tackles. 2 missed 2 point conversions means 11 guys didn't execute their best on 2 plays.

Everyone on the team is responsible for a loss, just as everyone is responsible for a win. I refuse to believe, that one play, or one call, or one penalty causes a loss. You have 60 minutes to get the job done, not 8 mins here or 10 mins there or 30 seconds here or 10 seconds there, its 60 mins of mistake free, execution football, otherwise, go root for a pop warner team if Execution of plays is something that isn't important.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 04:51 PM
No, I got solid play from 53 guys at different points in the game.

An interception return for a touchdown also means 11 guys missed making a tackle on that play. A kick return to the 1 means 11 guys missed tackles. 2 missed 2 point conversions means 11 guys didn't execute their best on 2 plays.

Everyone on the team is responsible for a loss, just as everyone is responsible for a win. I refuse to believe, that one play, or one call, or one penalty causes a loss. You have 60 minutes to get the job done, not 8 mins here or 10 mins there or 30 seconds here or 10 seconds there, its 60 mins of mistake free, execution football, otherwise, go root for a pop warner team if Execution of plays is something that isn't important.

An interception for a touchdown means the offense is going down the field.. and has to turn around.. get off their blocks and catch a speedy db that is going down the sidelines with hardly anyone in his way.. You can;t tell me all 11 guys are in position to make a tackle on an interception.

"The special teams are who we thought they were.". (Denny Green) You have to accept the fact that they were just not good at this point in the season and played accordingly by kicking short and giving the jags the ball at the 30-35 yard line.. not your own 2 yard line.

Games are won and lost at the end if close buy decision making.. regardless most NFL games are close and won in the 4th quarter by smart decision making and execution.. The if, ands and buts come into play in the 1st 3 quarters which cancel out b/c you can't calculate human error. You have to perform well when the game is on the line to get the desired outcome. No one team is absolutly perfect. And, by saying you want alll 11 guys to make a tackle on every play immaginable is perfection thats not going to happen with any NFL team.

Dino 6 Rings
01-07-2008, 04:57 PM
The Coach, did not lose this game. That's what the thread indicates, I dispute that claim.

What lost this game was poor special teams play, bad O-line play, and lack of execution on many plays. Dropped balls in scoring position, bad penalties at bad times, bad tackling at key moments and a running attack that never showed up.

drizze99
01-07-2008, 05:15 PM
How is everyone overlooking the Ben "turn over machine." You can nit pick at the coaches and refs and play calling all you want, but nobody wins a damn game turning the ball over 4 times. I don't buy "they made a good play" BS one bit. They were bone headed plays by Ben and they ALL came at crucial points in the game. The INT to Rashean was a ball Ben tried to force in there. The INT to Rashean that was intended for Davenport was horrible. The INT to a back-up rookie lineman was pathetic. The fumble just sealed the deal.

Ben needs to learn to "live for another play" and its that simple. He takes sacks when he should heave the ball into the stands. Still makes some poor reads.

I don't care what anyone on here says, we protect the ball, we win. We wouldn't have to worry about play calling if we are smashing those idiots. But no, we spot them a few touchdowns and then decide to play football.

HometownGal
01-07-2008, 05:50 PM
One last thing, I feel we can dislike some playcalling, or coaching if we want. This is a forum for pete's sake. If you dont agree you are free to state your opinion as to why. It seems the negative posters in this forum lately are the ones that shouldn't be (Moderators etc). If I dont agree with what you ahve to say I can post why (not just lock the threads). Yeah there were alot of threads about the same thing, but it seems they should have been merged and not all locked. We are Steeler fans, we get emotional about games like this. I dont necessarily like Arians, and it is my right to post I would like him gone. You dont have to agree, you dont have to rebut. There are others that share my opinion that post their reasoning why they agree, and there are others that disagree and post reasons why they disagree. There there are yet others that post they I am a "Boo Bird" or "Not a real fan" or post stupid smiley's construing they are bored of the conversation. I am still a Steelers fan just like most of you. I am sure not everyone likes everyone on the team or decisions, but that is what a forum is for. If you dont have anything to contribute to the conversation, do what I do, dont post in it.

Sure you can dislike playcalling or coaching and are free to state your opinion why - this is a board of opinions. However, if I disagree with something you post, I'm going to state so and why however I choose, as long as it stays within the confines of our board COC.

Let me also add that we Mods are regular posters first and foremost just like you and everyone else. I don't believe we should be held to an esteemed standard when rendering our thoughts and opinions on various issues - again - as long as we do not violate our board COC which is what we ask of everyone else. In closing my post here, I will say that the negativity around here lately has been absolutely off the charts and I'm hoping with the Steelers' earlier than expected offseason, the negativity dies down and hopefully ends. A morgue had a happier atmosphere than this place for the last several weeks.

Phoenixus
01-07-2008, 06:09 PM
How is everyone overlooking the Ben "turn over machine."

Because... he's not generally,

His INT to TD ratio is low. Look around the league and you'll see almost every other quarterback with a lot higher number of INTs and/or a lot lower number of TDs. There are literally few quarterbacks in the league who can put up what he generally does.

People judge him on the whole, not the first quarter/half of any given game. And more importantly, in this case... did manage to bring the team back in one single quarter with his arm and under heavy and constant pressure.

But when taken as a whole in this specific game, it's kind of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other kind of thing since he put them in the hole, then brought them back in a single quarter like it was nothing.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 06:16 PM
Because... he's not generally,

His INT to TD ratio is low. Look around the league and you'll see almost every other quarterback with a lot higher number of INTs and/or a lot lower number of TDs. There are literally few quarterbacks in the league who can put up what he generally does.

People judge him on the whole, not the first quarter/half of any given game. And more importantly, in this case... did manage to bring the team back in one single quarter with his arm and under heavy and constant pressure.

But when taken as a whole in this specific game, it's kind of a 6 of one, half dozen of the other kind of thing since he put them in the hole, then brought them back in a single quarter like it was nothing.

2 out of the three INT's can be explained... Ben even said it himself.

The nose tackle ?? for the Jags made one heck of a play, a 300lb + guy bent over.. falling forward, looks up all the sudden, and jumps up and catches the ball. .. great play..

The first INT was a telegraphed play call the Steelers like to run. Mathis has seen that formation before. He intercepted two passes out of that formation before from Tommy Maddox under Cowhers regime. Now, why they would run that 'timing' route again towards Mathis so that he can jump the route is beyond me. But, you have to remember most of the staff, if not all was not their when Mathis picked them off numerous times for running that play. And.. you can't just throw away a timing route.. In fact.. if anyone is old enough to remember.. Mathis boasted about knowing the Steelers ran this play.. and asked his safeties to cover for him.. They got the look, and took advantage of the Steelers predictability. Ben could have checked out of it.. but it's basically a one on one play that is very hard to cover unless you know it's coming.. and boy did he ever know it was coming!!

The long throw INT was all Ben's fault.. run 2-3 yards and slide or throw the ball away.Or when Ben was approaching the line of scrimage it looked like Holmes was open at a much shorter distance due to the linebacker/? coming up to cover Ben in case he ran.

There is more to throwing interceptions than the media portrays... it's not always the QB's fault..

Rotorhead
01-07-2008, 06:22 PM
I guess I feel you should hold yourselves to a higher standard. However I do agree with you on the negativity around here, there is far less discussion than when I started posting on this forum. Probably why I don't post as much as I used to, and don't visit as often as I used to. I would hope that by holding yourselves to a higher standard you would just not post the negative/sarcasm that you do post (it is not as much as others, but still some). But, I will drop the subject, and look forward to better improvement discussions for next season.

HometownGal
01-07-2008, 06:31 PM
I guess I feel you should hold yourselves to a higher standard. However I do agree with you on the negativity around here, there is far less discussion than when I started posting on this forum. Probably why I don't post as much as I used to, and don't visit as often as I used to. I would hope that by holding yourselves to a higher standard you would just not post the negative/sarcasm that you do post (it is not as much as others, but still some). But, I will drop the subject, and look forward to better improvement discussions for next season.

Sorry we've disappointed you in that regard, Rotor. I maintain my stance that before we are Mods, we are regular posting members first and have just as much right as you or anyone else to render an opinion, whether it is one you and others agree with or not. Personally, I try not to disagree disrespectfully outside of the BF but over the past couple of weeks with all of the negative Neds around here, that has been quite difficult. I think what has frustrated me the most is that we have so many excellent football minds around here whose posts have been overshadowed by some of this negativity and we have to dig through the "coal" to get to the "gold". I'm with you here - I am looking forward to some good discussion as the draft and FA will soon be upon us! :cheers:

Steeldude
01-07-2008, 06:43 PM
if negativity didn't exist at all then we would have a lot of poor, mindless fans. i hope people understand what i mean by that comment :smile:

too much negativity is a downer, but none at all is.....well.....uh...(i'm not sure of the correct word to use. just fill in the blank) :thumbsup:

HometownGal
01-07-2008, 06:53 PM
if negativity didn't exist at all then we would have a lot of poor, mindless fans. i hope people understand what i mean by that comment :smile:

too much negativity is a downer, but none at all is.....well.....uh...(i'm not sure of the correct word to use. just fill in the blank) :thumbsup:

As long as the negativity is done in a constructive fashion, I have no problem with it as it sometimes leads to productive discussions. It's when it is done in a DESTRUCTIVE manner that I have a huge problem with it.

karran_s
01-07-2008, 07:13 PM
Hi,

I'm also a Pats fan who was rooting for the Steelers in the playoff game... In my opinion, the Steelers deserved to win and should have won, if the play calling had been aggressive, as many have already posted here.....

I do agree about the Ward catch.. I didn't see any holding on the replay but what really lost the game was the series of bad calls with only a few minutes left on the clock. The worst one was the 3rd and 6, which will probably go down as one of the worst ever calls made in a playoff game...

Anyway, good season and sorry it had to end that way for you guys.... I've always liked the Steelers and thought they were always a tough team to beat, especially in your place...

The Jags fans are coming to our board and boasting that they "own" your team, which is a load of crap and many of our fans have come to your defense...

Good luck on your next season, guys.. Hope you get rid of your OC as quickly as possible..

HometownGal
01-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Hi,

I'm also a Pats fan who was rooting for the Steelers in the playoff game... In my opinion, the Steelers deserved to win and should have won, if the play calling had been aggressive, as many have already posted here.....

I do agree about the Ward catch.. I didn't see any holding on the replay but what really lost the game was the series of bad calls with only a few minutes left on the clock. The worst one was the 3rd and 6, which will probably go down as one of the worst ever calls made in a playoff game...

Anyway, good season and sorry it had to end that way for you guys.... I've always liked the Steelers and thought they were always a tough team to beat, especially in your place...

The Jags fans are coming to our board and boasting that they "own" your team, which is a load of crap and many of our fans have come to your defense...

Good luck on your next season, guys.. Hope you get rid of your OC as quickly as possible..

Thanks for the classy post. :cheers:

I have to strongly disagree, as I have with Steelers fans here, as well, that the game was lost on the last couple of series of play calls. Tomlin, along with Ben, felt the plays would work and have stated so publicly in their post-game comments. If they're OK with what was called, who am I to disagree?

As for "getting rid of our OC" - no thanks. I'm more than happy with what he has accomplished this season in his "rookie" season as an OC and ecstatic at how much his guidance, support and removing Ben's shackles as a QB have benefitted Ben overall. :thumbsup: Most importantly, however, Arians and Ben have established a great rapport and respect for each other and that is always a plus.

BlastFurnace
01-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the classy post. :cheers:

I have to strongly disagree, as I have with Steelers fans here, as well, that the game was lost on the last couple of series of play calls. Tomlin, along with Ben, felt the plays would work and have stated so publicly in their post-game comments. If they're OK with what was called, who am I to disagree?

As for "getting rid of our OC" - no thanks. I'm more than happy with what he has accomplished this season in his "rookie" season as an OC and ecstatic at how much his guidance, support and removing Ben's shackles as a QB have benefitted Ben overall. :thumbsup: Most importantly, however, Arians and Ben have established a great rapport and respect for each other and that is always a plus.

I see her point to an extent on the series of down that includes the 3rd and 6. The one thing that the Patriots do go for the jugular from the opening whistle until the end. The Steelers have one of 3 Pro Bowl QB's. I have a hard time believing that either OC for the Patriots or Colts would not have let Brady or Manning throw the ball in that situation. Because a bootleg for Ben was called, I believe we should have had an option in a route for Ben to throw to if the Run was obviously going to be stuffed.

Ben and Arians had the Jaguars defense reeling the entire 2nd half. When I saw the play selection on 2nd and 3rd down, I felt and still feel that we didn't play our best cards and didn't give Ben a chance to do what he had done the entire 2nd half.

We went conservative when we shouldn't have. We should have won that game. I felt that Ben's 1st half was an annomoly, but it seemed to play into the decision of Arians not to let Ben throw or have the option to throw in that situation.

Mosca
01-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Again: after that 3rd and 6 call, we were still winning. it was what happened AFTER that that lost the game.

Atlanta Dan
01-07-2008, 09:08 PM
Again: after that 3rd and 6 call, we were still winning. it was what happened AFTER that that lost the game.

Agreed it was not what lost the game,but given the play of the STs throughout the year and the number of late drives the D had surrendered (Denver, Jets, first Jax game) stopping the clock with an incomplete pass or a turnover with a pass were not the only risks - turning the ball back with any significant time left on the clock was a big risk.

It seems as if the coaches were chomping at the bit to run the bootleg on third down and were not flexible enough to change their minds once the circumstances under which that play was presumed to succeed in practice did not exist after Davenport lost a yard on second down:

Arians said the yardage needed was a little more than the Steelers would have preferred, but they still felt good about calling Roethlisberger's number.

"After the first-down call, we were trying to get it into third-and-3 or third-and-4 for that play," Arians said. "We don't get the necessary yardage running straight ahead. We still got the exact coverage we thought we'd get on third-and-3.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_546183.html

The difference between calling a running play that is expected to work on third and three or four when it is third and six is pretty obvious even to those of us who are not regarded as knowing as much about football as certain self-proclaimed experts on the board..

While hindsight is 20/20 I do not think criticism of the call is unjustified or that posters should be accused (of course not by you Tom) of simply bashing the playcalling without reason. If so, add Cowher to the list of bashers:

"When you look at this game, they (the Steelers) came back from 18 points down, get to a one-point lead ... third down and six — a first down and you win the game — and they run a quarterback sweep with Ben," Cowher said, with an incredulous tone, during CBS' "The NFL Today" show Sunday.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22545098/

BlastFurnace
01-07-2008, 09:18 PM
Again: after that 3rd and 6 call, we were still winning. it was what happened AFTER that that lost the game.

Our point is that we converted that 3rd and 6, what happened after that is that we:

- At a minimum, take the clock to minus 2:00 in the game.
- Pin them deeper in their end of the field with a less amount of time on the clock than they had.
- At the very best, keep driving against a tired out defense and kill the clock ourselves.

I still think we didn't play our best cards at the end of the game. We should have won.

Lord Stiller
01-07-2008, 09:38 PM
"When you look at this game, they (the Steelers) came back from 18 points down, get to a one-point lead ... third down and six ? a first down and you win the game ? and they run a quarterback sweep with Ben," Cowher said, with an incredulous tone, during CBS' "The NFL Today" show Sunday.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22545098/

wtf?

Cowher would have had Ben kneel the ball or something even more conservative and stupid

Lord Stiller
01-07-2008, 09:40 PM
Again: after that 3rd and 6 call, we were still winning. it was what happened AFTER that that lost the game.

You are missing the poin. We get that first down and another and there is no AFTER

Why give Jax a shot to win at all?

augustashark
01-07-2008, 09:59 PM
Agreed it was not what lost the game,but given the play of the STs throughout the year and the number of late drives the D had surrendered (Denver, Jets, first Jax game) stopping the clock with an incomplete pass or a turnover with a pass were not the only risks - turning the ball back with any significant time left on the clock was a big risk.

It seems as if the coaches were chomping at the bit to run the bootleg on third down and were not flexible enough to change their minds once the circumstances under which that play was presumed to succeed in practice did not exist after Davenport lost a yard on second down:

Arians said the yardage needed was a little more than the Steelers would have preferred, but they still felt good about calling Roethlisberger's number.
"After the first-down call, we were trying to get it into third-and-3 or third-and-4 for that play," Arians said. "We don't get the necessary yardage running straight ahead. We still got the exact coverage we thought we'd get on third-and-3.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_546183.html

The difference between calling a running play that is expected to work on third and three or four when it is third and six is pretty obvious even to those of us who are not regarded as knowing as much about football as certain self-proclaimed experts on the board..

While hindsight is 20/20 I do not think criticism of the call is unjustified or that posters should be accused (of course not by you Tom) of simply bashing the playcalling without reason. If so, add Cowher to the list of bashers:

"When you look at this game, they (the Steelers) came back from 18 points down, get to a one-point lead ... third down and six ? a first down and you win the game ? and they run a quarterback sweep with Ben," Cowher said, with an incredulous tone, during CBS' "The NFL Today" show Sunday.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22545098/

And with that myfriends, I rest my case!

LOL, he even admits it! This is'nt Temple Bruce.

Mosca
01-07-2008, 10:30 PM
Hey, thanks for the extra source information! THAT is the kind of stuff that is needed to make a reasonable analysis and put the call into context. Seeing Arians rationalize it a bit, now I see more of what was going on behind the scenes. I understand... why would a coach call a three yard play when we need six yards? :hunch:

I'm a believer in running for the yards at that point of the game, and it colors my opinion; it has to. And I agree that Manning, Brady, et al would have thrown for the yards and probably got them.

Old beliefs and habits die hard, I guess. But if you're going to marry yourself to running for those yards, you'd better the hell get them, or be prepared to get criticized by everyone in the national media from Mike & Mike to Peter King.

Yes, I know that we haven't held the opponents in that situation, going all the way back to Denver. But this is the Steelers; in the playoffs, with the chips on the line and "all in", if you can't stop them you're going home in 6th place. Which is what happened. Winning teams stop the opponents in the last two minutes when they have the lead.

conservativesteelers
01-07-2008, 11:12 PM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_546183.html[/url]

If so, add Cowher to the list of bashers:

"When you look at this game, they (the Steelers) came back from 18 points down, get to a one-point lead ... third down and six ? a first down and you win the game ? and they run a quarterback sweep with Ben," Cowher said, with an incredulous tone, during CBS' "The NFL Today" show Sunday.
8/[/url]


Cowher of all people. You know he would have ran it up the middle three straight plays and punted.. But, he had Bettis.. so he may have picked up a first down.. But for him to state that if foolish of him. He is so... full ouf it on that comment b/c he would have done the same dang thing!!! guaranteed..

karran_s
01-07-2008, 11:32 PM
I see her point to an extent on the series of down that includes the 3rd and 6. The one thing that the Patriots do go for the jugular from the opening whistle until the end. The Steelers have one of 3 Pro Bowl QB's. I have a hard time believing that either OC for the Patriots or Colts would not have let Brady or Manning throw the ball in that situation. Because a bootleg for Ben was called, I believe we should have had an option in a route for Ben to throw to if the Run was obviously going to be stuffed.

Ben and Arians had the Jaguars defense reeling the entire 2nd half. When I saw the play selection on 2nd and 3rd down, I felt and still feel that we didn't play our best cards and didn't give Ben a chance to do what he had done the entire 2nd half.

We went conservative when we shouldn't have. We should have won that game. I felt that Ben's 1st half was an annomoly, but it seemed to play into the decision of Arians not to let Ben throw or have the option to throw in that situation.

Thanks, I'm not a "she" but a "he" (big and bearded, like Ben).... Coming to the play we were watching (with a couple of Steelers fans), everyone was of the same opinion that in that situation, you should play to win and not turn the ball over on downs.... This gave the Jags an unnecessary scoring opportunity... On 4th and 2, no one covered DG who had a lucky break and scrambled quickly through the hole... He should have been stopped ... However, the basic question is why give them a chance in the first place ? All you needed was a first down to lock the game in your favor...

Dino 6 Rings
01-08-2008, 03:58 PM
Did someone actually say the 3rd and 6 call could go down as one of the worst play calls in NFL playoff history?

Seriously...it was a first round Wild Card game and 1 call in a 60 minute game. I seriously doubt come next season, anyone will remember it. Unless of coarse when up by a point we have a 3rd and 6 and need to kill the clock. Then people will say, "man I hope they don't run left with Ben on a bootleg".

Dino 6 Rings
01-08-2008, 04:01 PM
Why run it...geesh...cause if he makes it, we get the 1st. If he passes, after having already had 3 passes picked and the Jags looking for a quick slant in that situation, and bad pass blocking pretty much all season, a sweep to the Left, the side everyone tries to flush Ben to anyway, might actually have worked had Essex turned inside sooner and had Ben locked his eyes to Essex's backs and ran right up his arse for 6 freaking yards.

Execution of the play is what failed in that one situation. Not the call. But again. One call or one series did not lose this game.

Dino 6 Rings
01-08-2008, 04:05 PM
Also, I would like to bring up the following situation:

Pittsburgh at Dallas 2004. Cowboys have the ball. Have a 3rd down and short near midfield. Bill Parcells. Yes that Bill Parcells, calls a Pass Play. Vinny T drops back, knocks into his own guy, fumbles, Kimo picks it up and runs it back to around the 9 or so and we score a TD and take the lead.

Everyone on the planet asked Bill Parcells why he didn't run the ball there. It was seen as a bad coaching call to go for a pass.

Was it? If it Fails, yes, its a bad coaching call every time. If it works, the guys a freaking brilliant football Mind.

This Conversation is Officially Over.

drizze99
01-08-2008, 04:06 PM
I have to strongly disagree, as I have with Steelers fans here, as well, that the game was lost on the last couple of series of play calls. Tomlin, along with Ben, felt the plays would work and have stated so publicly in their post-game comments. If they're OK with what was called, who am I to disagree?

LOL, do you think Ben, Tomlin or Arians is going to come out and speak to the public and admit it was terrible call? Of course they are going to defend the call, but just because they do that does NOT make it right.

Seriously, game on the line and we run a QB sweep off tackle and that tackle happens to be a 3rd string guy... How can you be confident about that? And watch that play over and you will see that Mr Essex makes contact with absolutely NOBODY! He just turns around to watch Ben get hammered for a small gain.

I also didn't like the play call BEFORE that play. Davenport off tackle and he loses 2 yards... yep that same 3rd string tackle. :banging:

Dino 6 Rings
01-08-2008, 04:10 PM
Please read my previous 3 posts and you see why the call itself wasn't the failure and why we did not get "screwed" by our coaches.

Throw a pick 6 there and people burn the stadium to the ground. Fumble or take a sack (which happened later on) and people freak out and say why not run it.

The Left tackle performed well enough all game long, and Jacksonville was trying to flush Ben left anyway, why not attack that and take the 6 yards. Execution failure. Not play calling failure.

geo123
01-08-2008, 04:39 PM
That 3 and out was the undoing. Obviuosly if they make the 1st down running all is well, but they had to know the Jags knew this, and would play the run. They shouldn't have called more than 1 run play. At the point where you need 6 yds, the play they called was poor at best, it never gave them much chance.
At least if they called a designed roll with a pass option there was an alternative.

fansince'76
01-08-2008, 04:42 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u251/beautifulgirl427/horse.gif

HometownGal
01-08-2008, 07:59 PM
LOL, do you think Ben, Tomlin or Arians is going to come out and speak to the public and admit it was terrible call? Of course they are going to defend the call, but just because they do that does NOT make it right.

Seriously, game on the line and we run a QB sweep off tackle and that tackle happens to be a 3rd string guy... How can you be confident about that? And watch that play over and you will see that Mr Essex makes contact with absolutely NOBODY! He just turns around to watch Ben get hammered for a small gain.

I also didn't like the play call BEFORE that play. Davenport off tackle and he loses 2 yards... yep that same 3rd string tackle. :banging:

LOL, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I won't be sending my resume in to Mike Tomlin, so the job's all yours. :wink02::wink02:

DIE THREAD DIE!!!! :dang:

augustashark
01-08-2008, 08:04 PM
You endorse capital punishment for threads? Hummmm?

Steel Warrior
01-08-2008, 08:31 PM
My last comment on that play. I'm in upstate NY and have endured 2 days of what a "boneheaded play" that was, and I agree, by the Jets , Bills, Pats, and Giants fans in this office, not to mention how it's been ripped on the sports radio and TV. It wasn't a very smart play to call, especially since we now know it was designed to pick up 3 or 4 yards when we needed more. It didn't show any confidence in Ben and a team that was lighting up the Jags, and it will go down in infamy. "Hey, 3rd and 6, and you're in a playoff game, and everything is on the line, run your QB on a QB sweep like the Steelers did, BWAHAHAHA!".

ytsan2q
01-08-2008, 10:25 PM
If we didn't have those 3 turnovers in the first half we wouldn't be having this conversation. I had flashbacks of Neil O'Donnel throwing the game away. You can't give a team like Jacksonville pick sixes and turn the ball over when you're trying to gain momentum and expect things to go your way in the end.

Haiku_Dirtt
01-09-2008, 02:15 AM
Pats fan here.:

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

I've lived in the northeast and West Hollywood. Y'all have alot in common.

Beyond the glamour...:cheer::cheer:

HometownGal
01-09-2008, 06:48 AM
If we didn't have those 3 turnovers in the first half we wouldn't be having this conversation. I had flashbacks of Neil O'Donnel throwing the game away. You can't give a team like Jacksonville pick sixes and turn the ball over when you're trying to gain momentum and expect things to go your way in the end.

There were several factors, including those you mention above, which had an impact on the Steelers losing that game. If the D holds and doesn't allow a QB, who isn't known as terribly mobile, to scamper for 32 yards to get the Jags into FG range, we probably aren't having this conversation either. If our pathetic ST's doesn't allow Jones Drew to run back a kickoff for 96 yards, the Jags score that shortly followed most likely doesn't happen. So many ifs but the bottom line is - our season is over, the Jags are moving on. Period.

BozMan
01-09-2008, 11:01 PM
LOL, do you think Ben, Tomlin or Arians is going to come out and speak to the public and admit it was terrible call? Of course they are going to defend the call, but just because they do that does NOT make it right.

Seriously, game on the line and we run a QB sweep off tackle and that tackle happens to be a 3rd string guy... How can you be confident about that? And watch that play over and you will see that Mr Essex makes contact with absolutely NOBODY! He just turns around to watch Ben get hammered for a small gain.

I also didn't like the play call BEFORE that play. Davenport off tackle and he loses 2 yards... yep that same 3rd string tackle. :banging:

Arians is now admitting (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_546489.html) that he made a bad call:

The Steelers might have won had they converted a third-and-six from their 26-yard line with 2:56 remaining.

A run around left end by Roethlisberger gained only 1 yard, and the Steelers punted.

"I should have let him throw it again, probably, instead of running it," Arians said.

Gee, Bruce, do you think? :banging:

sherlock
01-10-2008, 12:05 AM
I`m a bit confused as to who has the final say during a game.
I`m an NFL newby so please bear with me.....I`m aware you have an offense coach,a defense coach and a special team coach(?) but does not Tomlin have the final say during any phase of a game?

Steel Pit
01-10-2008, 02:34 AM
:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

I've lived in the northeast and West Hollywood. Y'all have alot in common.

Beyond the glamour...:cheer::cheer:

LMAO :sofunny:

Is there a Patriots fan in the house?:hyper: Holy Cow where is he? :mg: I just have to touch him or something, :sissies: Maybe obtain his autograph. :drool:

HometownGal
01-10-2008, 05:51 AM
http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg