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View Full Version : Help with Patriots Lovers Talking Down Lambert (LONG!)


steelers2685
01-22-2008, 08:58 PM
First off, this is long...

Got a couple guys who are Patriots* lovers talking smack on Jack Lambert and the overall success of the Patriots* this year, how they played a tougher schedule, the 72 Dolphins wouldn't stand a chance, etc. etc.

Here goes the convo:

ME:
Teams of that era (the 70s) would have a field day with the Patriots*.[/QUOTE]

sure they would;)

The undefeated 1972 Dolphins played against a schedule with a combined Won-Lost-Tied record of 70-122-4, for a Winning Percentage of .357. Only two of their games were against teams with a better than .500 record for the season (the Giants and Chiefs at 8--6 each). None of the teams on the Dolphins schedule that year made the playoffs.

You have no clue on history of football!

ME:
You want to talk about statistics? The Patriots* played in the easiest division of football this year, totalling 6 wins on their schedule. The total standings of the teams in their division was 12-36 alone! But it was proven this season that powerhouses can fall, and losing teams can put up a huge fight. Look at the Ravens game, bottom of the AFC North and should have (if not for the refs two dumb calls on the last drive by accepting a T.O. from an assistant coach and finally calling Gaffney's bobbling, unsecured TD a catch) won to topple the Patriots* at that time. Football was real football back then, and as you can see all of those games were relatively close, the guys played 60 minutes of football. Today, most teams play 44 at 110%. 72 DOlphins schedule:

_@ Chiefs.........W 20-10
vs Oilers........W 34-13
_@ Vikings........W 16-14
_@ Jets...........W 27-17
vs Chargers.....W 24-10
vs Bills........W 24-23
_@ Colts.........W 23-0
_@ Bills........W 30-16
vs Patriots......W 52-0 <---- I LOVE this one - What's your excuse for it? :D
vs Jets..........W 28-24
vs Cardinals....W 31-10
_@ Patriots......W 37-21
_@ Giants.........W 23-13
vs Colts..........W 16-0

IIRC, the 72 Dolphins averaged 211 yds. per game ON THE GROUND because of the fact that Griese got hurt and the team mainly did what they did by being led with a backup QB! The Patriots* YPG you ask? 115 ypd. Weak.

In addition to this, IIRC comparing their rankings back then to the 2006 schedule, they'd have been ranked #1 in both scoring defense and defense overall, #2 in scoring offense, and #4 in offense overall (due to the fact that their receiver who had the most catches in that season was a mere 29!). Whereas this years Patriots* were #1 in offense, but #3 in defense.

Again, the 2007 Patriots* would've gotten creamed by them and that's that. So many rules are in effect now to protect the QB and receivers that if this years Patriots* stepped onto the field back in that time, all of those teams would have made mince meat out of them. The Purple People Eaters, the Steel Curtain, etc. would've put Tom Brady* on his back time and time again.

And did you ever hear of the Mel Blount Rule? Yeah, that's the rule created because the HOF Steeler Mel Blount would raider up receivers to the extent that they could not get past him. Let's see Randy Moss go against a cornerback doing that to him. He couldn't do it and would be forced to catch little dump off screens all day.

I'm just going to keep my mouth shut before I get in trouble on the last comment though. Don't tell me what I do and don't know. I know more about football than you'll ever know because besides TM's that is my other hobby, and if you knew that much... well, never mind. Just keep googling and copying those statistics off of forums and other sites to make you seem knowledgeable. Can't wait to see your posts after you get tossed from your high horse when they lose, rightfully so, in the SB.

Patriots had the 3rd most difficult schedule this year.Not my opinion fact.

When your quarterback throws for close to 5000 yards why do you need to average more than 115 on the ground not to be weak?

Patriots would beat the Steel Curtain team,why??
Simple bigger stronger faster.The guys of that era while great were much smaller than nowadays.Not as strong or as fast.
For example If you look at Jack Lambert(one of the best of all time) he was listed around 220lbs as a linebacker.That is right around what Tom Brady weighs and he is the quarterback.Lambert was around the size of a modern strong safety and would have had a very difficult time getting near Brady through all of his 300lb+ linemen.And they would have been able to push the smaller defense all around the field.
And on the other side of the ball it would have been the same unfortunately.
BTW I'll be rooting for the Giants.

LoL that kids logic is a joke!

It would be impossible for a team from the early 70's to run against almost any team in the league right now. The Offensive line would get smashed every play.

Just about any team right now could run all over a team from the early 70's. Their Offensive line would crush the dolphins or anyones defensive front from the early 70's.

Its quite an error to try to compare values and stats from past eras outside of the situation that they were created in.
It doesnt mean a player in 72 wasnt a good player. He WAS a good player.


And having a 17-0 record with an easy schedule. Bah. That sounds like something USC or Ohio St would do in college. Then they get pounced on when they play a team with some balls.


Patriots had the 3rd most difficult schedule this year.Not my opinion fact.

ME:
I agree. But, again, 6 of those games were within their own cream-puff division. The Bills did a nice job at the end, but were not a dominant team in anyway (as we witnessed when the Patriots* crushed them).



When your quarterback throws for close to 5000 yards why do you need to average more than 115 on the ground not to be weak?

ME:
Granted. But I was stating a fact that the 72 Dolphins did not have the arsenal of weapons that the Patriots* have at their disposal this season, and in the case of the Dolphins, relying on a ground game 80%/20% with no marquee players is a feat within itself. The Patriots* are not a weak team and I did not say that.


Patriots would beat the Steel Curtain team,why??
Simple bigger stronger faster.The guys of that era while great were much smaller than nowadays.Not as strong or as fast.
For example If you look at Jack Lambert(one of the best of all time) he was listed around 220lbs as a linebacker.That is right around what Tom Brady weighs and he is the quarterback.Lambert was around the size of a modern strong safety and would have had a very difficult time getting near Brady through all of his 300lb+ linemen.And they would have been able to push the smaller defense all around the field. And on the other side of the ball it would have been the same unfortunately.

ME:
I largely disagree. Jack Lambert and the guys of that era were tough as nails, and if you put a semi in front of them they'd have been determined to run through it. You bring up the issue of size by saying he'd have a tough time getting through the line. Yet, look at Maurice Jones Drew, a guy who's 5'7" and 208 lbs. Small guy, but an awesome talent on the field. Defenses are bigger these days, but a guy that small is having the career he is having? That proves you wrong right there because you say Lambert wouldn't be able to get through the line. Well in that case, MJD wouldn't be able to get past the L.O.S. Same type of scenario.

Here's a nice writeup about a number of NFL stars who are considered to be small, yet supply a punch to their respective teams as playmakers. It's the motivation of an individual that drives him to do his best, and if Jack Lambert played today and you were a member of the media mentioning to him that he would not be able to get through the line and sack a guy his own size, he'd prove you wrong at least a half dozen times on that given Sunday. And so would any of those guys from that team.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks...t-Wonders.html



LoL that kids logic is a joke!

ME:
I beg your pardon? By the way on the last page, I missed this:

quoting me saying , "I guess the refs just didn't 'see' that leg whip on Rivers that caused his off balance throw leading to the interception. "

responds with:
lol because thats against the rules
Protect the quarterback.


ME:
The leg whip/tripping IS against the rules, but the refs did not call that and instead allowed the play to stand (which was Rivers' offbalance throw from being tripped that led to an interception and a TD in the end) even though it's a penalty!. So you are implying defenses are allowed to trip the QB and its OK to leg whip the QB to get him down since the O-line did not protect the quarterback....... Sorry to tell ya, but your logic is the joke my friend.



It would be impossible for a team from the early 70's to run against almost any team in the league right now. The Offensive line would get smashed every play.

ME:
You're telling me that guys like Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, Franco Harris, and O.J. Simpson couldn't teach these guys a thing or two about running the ball? Give me a break.

steelers2685
01-22-2008, 08:59 PM
Just about any team right now could run all over a team from the early 70's. Their Offensive line would crush the dolphins or anyones defensive front from the early 70's.

ME:
I agree that the RB's of today are VERY talented, like LT, Adrian Peterson - Vikings, Addai, and hte up and coming McFadden. However, the RB's would pay for their running at the end of a run with the defenses being as tough and ruthless as they were.


Its quite an error to try to compare values and stats from past eras outside of the situation that they were created in.
It doesnt mean a player in 72 wasnt a good player. He WAS a good player.

ME:
This is true. Yet at the same time, you cannot say that a player of today is any better.



And having a 17-0 record with an easy schedule. Bah. That sounds like something USC or Ohio St would do in college. Then they get pounced on when they play a team with some balls.

ME:
But the Dolphins did not get pounced and instead won it out.



As for the bigger stronger faster thing it is true and arguing it is pointless.
There are so many improvements in training, diet etc..than 30 years ago
Do you believe 220 lb Lambert was bigger stronger and faster than 270lb Shawne Merriman? No contest..not even close.

Jones Drew is running behind a huge offensive line into another huge line big difference,Lambert would be behind a small(ish)defensive line which would be getting pushed back into him by a much larger offensive line...bad example.
Lambert was tough as nails no doubt but he would be outclassed..too small too slow....sorry.

ME: - Haven't responded yet.

Your thoughts on this? Am I surrounded by a bunch of schmucks :dang: or am I wrong, I do not for the life of me believe I am and am really getting into this debate trying to prove them wrong. :flap:

The Duke
01-22-2008, 09:13 PM
sorry to ask but.........why do you care what they're saying? nothing you say will change their tiny little minds, that's just the kind of sports fans(bandwagoners) we have to deal with in today's world

steelers2685
01-22-2008, 09:21 PM
sorry to ask but.........why do you care what they're saying? nothing you say will change their tiny little minds, that's just the kind of sports fans(bandwagoners) we have to deal with in today's world

I am thinking the same thing, and my brother keeps telling me to just ignore them. But, I'm the kind of person who has to have the last word, especially when I feel I'm right on an issue :sofunny:

It just aggravates me that outside of being a Steelers fan, I would still look at the 70s Steelers as being the greatest team/dynasty in league history, and these dimwits try to say otherwise..... :dang:


Just had to vent about this... :computer:

HometownGal
01-22-2008, 09:29 PM
I am thinking the same thing, and my brother keeps telling me to just ignore them. But, I'm the kind of person who has to have the last word, especially when I feel I'm right on an issue :sofunny:

It just aggravates me that outside of being a Steelers fan, I would still look at the 70s Steelers as being the greatest team/dynasty in league history, and these dimwits try to say otherwise..... :dang:


Just had to vent about this... :computer:

If you want to shut up a Pats* fan, mention the names John Hannah, Michael Haynes, Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson and watch them scratch their itty bitty heads wondering who the hell you're talking about. :toofunny::toofunny: Most of 'em didn't even know New England had an NFL franchise until 2001.

GBMelBlount
01-22-2008, 10:38 PM
I'm the kind of person who has to have the last word, especially when I feel I'm right on an issue :sofunny:

I never would've guessed! LOL! :toofunny:

steelers2685
01-22-2008, 10:51 PM
If you want to shut up a Pats* fan, mention the names John Hannah, Michael Haynes, Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson and watch them scratch their itty bitty heads wondering who the hell you're talking about. :toofunny::toofunny: Most of 'em didn't even know New England had an NFL franchise until 2001.

:funny::funny::funny:
Isn't that the truth?!


I never would've guessed! LOL! :toofunny:

LOL, well when you're the only guy there who's a Steelers fan and they try to harass you all they can about losing throughout the season and then start this crap about the Steel Curtain, I'm sorry, but it would be a sin to not stand up and dish it back at them.

Did I at least make some good points though that weren't too over exaggerateD?

The Duke
01-22-2008, 10:59 PM
Did I at least make some good points though that weren't too over exaggerateD?

I don't think so, but even if you did I bet you they did it too

touchdownward
01-22-2008, 11:01 PM
If you want to shut up a Pats* fan, mention the names John Hannah, Michael Haynes, Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson and watch them scratch their itty bitty heads wondering who the hell you're talking about. :toofunny::toofunny: Most of 'em didn't even know New England had an NFL franchise until 2001.

Also, mention Don Hasselbeck and watch 'em squirm trying to figure out when the seahawk's QB played for them. :wink02:

ZIGGY0246
01-23-2008, 02:41 PM
HTG or even Mossi Tatupu who's son is on Seattle was one of the best short yardage backs in a long time

Preacher
01-23-2008, 02:53 PM
Tell them that even if they win this year, they are a Lombardi short.

Watch them scratch their heads and wonder.... "WHat the heck is a Lombardi!"

dragtruk
01-23-2008, 05:06 PM
At least you can argue over the internet. Try living and working with these F*cking as*holes. I had to argue today. They asked me what the Steelers were doing on sunday, two weeks from now. I said, "Who won a SB last? The pats or Steelers? Who didn't choke and lose to the Colts in a playoff game last? The Pats or Steelers?" I said, "If the Steelers suck so bad, then how does it feel to know that your beloved Pats have to win two more SB's just to be as good as a team they think sucks?" If Brady gets hurt, will they be 0-18, since their backup Matt Kassel sucks more than Pamela Anderson when she met Kidd Rock? Then ask them if they've been to the Pine Street Inn for their Methadone shot yet, and tell them the Natty Ice is on sale at Liquor World. You won't hear from them for a good 2 days after that. Natty Ice is hard for those classy drunks to pass up.

NJarhead
01-23-2008, 06:45 PM
I'm going with Ben's "wink and a smile" approach until afer the SB. I shouldn't neglect to say that I'm counting on the G-Men to pull off the upset. Should this happen, I'm taking a drive to N.E. to photograph all the tears (between laughing fits).

Them: :crying01:
Me: :rofl:

LambertIsGod58
01-24-2008, 11:36 AM
I won't read the entire post...I think I got the jist of it. IMO, you can not compare eras like this. Number one, some of the rules aren't the same as when the Steelers dominated. Such as the "Mel Blount rule". The Steelers are the Dynasty of the 70's. As much as I love Lambert, I don't know how well he' d do in today's game. We can't take what he did on the field and say he'd do the same damn thing now. He was considered small even back then. But to say he couldn't is also unfair. Today's athlete is conditioned differently than back then. More is known today about diet and workout regiments. The athletes are bigger, stronger and faster today. What is known is that the Patriots are a classless organization...And their undefeated record will forever be tarnished by spygate...If I was a Pats fan, I wouldn't be talkin' any shit. Also, didn't Belichick say "you'll never see a Randy Moss on this team".....? So his integrity means nothing....He's a shitbag. I admired the guy before the cheating bullshit. It's too bad. Now all their titles are in question. Great time to be a NE fan!!!

stlrtruck
01-24-2008, 12:12 PM
One thing that can not be measured is the determination of a man's heart. And let's face it, players back then had more heart (and determination for that matter) to succeed (at least on the Steelers teams).

I know that although the patria-cheats have had success, they've had to cheat to get it. They've had to make up some rendition of stories to be told (ala Brady in a walking cast this week and then miraculously without it hours later). While the Steelers played hard-nose, broken bones and all, dominate football - without the asteriks!

Stlrs4Life
01-26-2008, 09:43 PM
I won't read the entire post...I think I got the jist of it. IMO, you can not compare eras like this. Number one, some of the rules aren't the same as when the Steelers dominated. Such as the "Mel Blount rule". The Steelers are the Dynasty of the 70's. As much as I love Lambert, I don't know how well he' d do in today's game. We can't take what he did on the field and say he'd do the same damn thing now. He was considered small even back then. But to say he couldn't is also unfair. Today's athlete is conditioned differently than back then. More is known today about diet and workout regiments. The athletes are bigger, stronger and faster today. What is known is that the Patriots are a classless organization...And their undefeated record will forever be tarnished by spygate...If I was a Pats fan, I wouldn't be talkin' any shit. Also, didn't Belichick say "you'll never see a Randy Moss on this team".....? So his integrity means nothing....He's a shitbag. I admired the guy before the cheating bullshit. It's too bad. Now all their titles are in question. Great time to be a NE fan!!!



Beat me to it. Ya hit the nail right on the head.

Rhee Rhee
01-28-2008, 03:09 AM
If you want to shut up a Pats* fan, mention the names John Hannah, Michael Haynes, Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson and watch them scratch their itty bitty heads wondering who the hell you're talking about. :toofunny::toofunny: Most of 'em didn't even know New England had an NFL franchise until 2001.

haha i was just gonna say those band wagon jumpers...

im impressed with all that u did... very good writing!!

plus i remember when i lived in rhode island the patriots stadium was soo crummy u could find pats tickets on the ground outside the stadium... and the team was soo bad that if we formed a 22 man team on SteelersFever we could've taken 'em... just think back to the days when they sucked and when we rocked!!

LambertIsGod58
01-28-2008, 09:57 AM
If you want to shut up a Pats* fan, mention the names John Hannah, Michael Haynes, Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson and watch them scratch their itty bitty heads wondering who the hell you're talking about. :toofunny::toofunny: Most of 'em didn't even know New England had an NFL franchise until 2001.

Couldn't agree more.....add Darryl Stingley to that list.

Edman
02-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Why are you arguing with Patriots* fans? They're the biggest idiot homers on the planet. To them, The NFL didn't start until 2001.

Let them fellate and fawn over their false sense of security of their joke dynasty because the ESPN kisses their team's behinds 24/7. But everyone outside of NE knows what the deal is.

silver & black
02-03-2008, 03:54 PM
:funny::funny::funny:
Isn't that the truth?!




LOL, well when you're the only guy there who's a Steelers fan and they try to harass you all they can about losing throughout the season and then start this crap about the Steel Curtain, I'm sorry, but it would be a sin to not stand up and dish it back at them.

Did I at least make some good points though that weren't too over exaggerateD?

From an opposing fan's point of view... yes, you made excellent points.

This is why I really never argue about my team on other fan forums... you aren't going to win, no matter how right you are. Most "fans" will not recognize another team's accomplishments, or give credit where its due. In fact, I come here because of the 70's Steelers, and the games your Steelers and my Raiders played back then. I still feel those were the best games ever played in that decade...by the the 2 best teams of that decade. Good luck trying to state your case on another team's forum... it usually falls on deaf ears.

There are some very knowledgeable fans on this forum... that actually know some NFL history, so I like to come here. Its a bit biased around here... but I guess thats to be expected. :wink02:...:sofunny:

fansince'76
02-04-2008, 01:08 AM
Hey steelers2685, I'd say you just got a hell of a lot more ammo now. :chuckle:

An honest 4-0 > A tainted 3-1*

lamberts-lost-tooth
02-04-2008, 11:49 AM
I have had this arguement with others before...but the truth is: Lambert had as much talent as to be considered one of the best three LBers in history.

The arquement usually runs to Lamberts size, but rarely is the size of his opponants taken into consideration...Lambert WAS big enough for the linemen of his time. He didnt HAVE to be bigger. It would be ridiculous to assume that given modern knowledge and equipment that players like Lambert...Butkus...Taylor...would somehow have their talent level and heart for the game suffer by adding 20 pounds of muscle.
'nuff said