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lamberts-lost-tooth
05-19-2008, 06:30 PM
My new favorite sports writer!!!:tt02::tt02:
Older article...but GREAT article!!!

Belichick mess won't go away anytime soon
Past games and reputation are in doubt, and he's not getting much support
OPINION
By Bob Cook
NBCSports.com contributor
updated 4:01 p.m. CT, Fri., Sept. 14, 2007


It’s taken only three days for the Richard Nixon-Bill Belichick comparison to become hackneyed, but the paranoid Patriots coach is making it so easy. Especially because Belichick’s version of a third-rate burglary is threatening to become the presumably insignificant event that kicks off a slow, painful process that ends with the knockout of a proud, arrogant and powerful man.

Just because Roger Goodell punished Belichick and the Patriots for violating NFL rules by sending a video assistant to tape New York Jets’ coaches sending in defensive signals does not mean that the scandal dubbed Videogate (there’s that Nixon parallel again) is over. Far from it.

Not with numerous players and teams now declaring, or just wondering, what Belichick might have pulled on them in games past, like how some Philadelphia Eagles are re-examining how, in Super Bowl XXXIX, the Patriots seemed to have the uncanny ability to throw a screen pass every time the Eagles’ defense blitzed. Not with claims of Belichick’s videotape system going back as far as his early 1990s tenure as Cleveland’s head coach.

Not with a Detroit Lions source telling SI.com that the headsets connecting the sidelines to the coaches’ sky box had a funny way of shorting out at Gillette Stadium whenever the Lions appeared to be close to scoring, and not with Lions general manager Matt Millen telling the same site that another team’s coach told him the same thing happened to his team at the Patriots’ field.

Not with Belichick using weasel words in his prepared response regarding Goodell’s punishment—a $250,000 for the Patriots, a $500,000 fine for Belichick (the maximum allowed under NFL bylaws) and the loss of a first-round draft pick next year, or a second- and a third-round pick if the Patriots don’t make the playoffs. Emphasis on the weasel words is mine: “We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress,” according to the statement attributed to Belichick. “Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations.”

No, it’s not over, not with Belichick still able to tap any of the team dossiers whose information was augmented by previous cheating—the cheating doesn’t have to occur “while the game was in progress” for it to be beneficial. Not with Belichick still holding onto the canard that he didn’t break a rule, he merely misinterpreted it.

And definitely not with fans, players, coaches, journalists, league officials and anyone else who is not a hard-core New England Patriots backer or employee digging into the past, looking cross-eyed at the present, and otherwise trying to answer the question that Belichick has unintentionally put forth — is he a coaching genius worthy of the Hall of Fame, or is he worthy of being declared a pumped-up, Mark McGwire-like fraud who will have to slink away in shame, still vowing to not talk about the past?

Most definitely, that is an offensive question to the Patriots and their fans. Back to Nixon, it’s reminiscent of how the president’s supporters initially declared the Watergate break-in to be a third-rate burglary, and that the media in particular was trumping up something that was really no big deal. And then as more evidence accrued that Nixon OK’d illegal conduct that went far beyond rifling through papers at the Democratic National Committee headquarters, they declared that everybody does what Nixon did, but that he just got caught. And that turncoats like John Dean (the Eric Mangini of his generation) were wrong themselves to turn against Nixon.

Belichick and his team might rather want to talk about Sunday’s game against San Diego, but all those people who felt wronged by Belichick are coming out of the woodwork as his ship starts sinking. Rats, some might call them.

That Belichick has made enemies and remained aloof from his colleagues (in Madden, he’s “NE Coach” instead of being called by name because he won’t join the NFL Coaches Association, which licenses coaches’ names for the football video game) and the press isn’t going to drive further investigations or punishments. But it will inspire people to turn against him now that the first ball has dropped, and it already is resulting in few coming out to defend his conduct, other than to say “everybody does it.”

The pressure is going to keep building, and the ultimate cost could be Belichick’s chance at being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Before Videogate, he was a shoo-in. Now, unless the whispering stops and it becomes clear as day that Belichick never cheated, or at least didn’t cheat more or in more nefarious ways that anybody else, Belichick’s career is going to be examined and re-examined like it’s never been before, with dribs and drabs of information adding up to a flood of problems.

Belichick, whatever the hit to his reputation and Hall chances, seems unlikely just to resign, and then salute as he walks onto the helicopter whisking him away. But we’ll know Belichick is at least getting worried if he grabs vice president of player personnel Scott Pioli, and demands that he pray with him.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20776371/

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-19-2008, 06:37 PM
William Milhous Belichick
Super Bowl XLII and its losing coach.

By Geoffrey Norman

For a while on Super Bowl Sunday, you felt like you could actually justify owning a television set — even one of those monsters with a screen the size of a dinner table and a sound system that will make the foundation of your house tremble. This game was actually that good — better than the ads, for a change. Super Bowl LXII’s matchup between the New England Patriots and the New York Giants proved to be an epic of old-fashioned, hard-nosed NFL action. Or what the legendary Texas football coach Darrell Royal once called “some snot-knocking in the okra.”

If you don’t understand that phrase, or have never heard of Coach Royal, that would be a shame. There was a time, you see, when football coaches — many of them, anyway — were engaging men who could laugh at their (and our) obsession with the game.

You had men like Michigan State’s coach, Duffy Dougherty — who once said, “The alumni are with you, win or tie.”

John McKay coached both perennial college powerhouse USC and those habitual NFL losers, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. When asked in Tampa about the “execution of his offense,” McKay said he thought it was “a good idea.” And when a reporter wondered if it was wise to let his star USC running back carry the ball 40 times per game, McKay quipped, “Why not? He doesn’t belong to a union — and besides, it’s not that heavy.”

Then there was “Bum” Phillips, who coached for the NFL’s Houston Oilers and then took the job with the New Orleans Saints when that amounted to a death sentence. “I’ve always said that there are two kinds of coaches,” Phillips once observed. “Them that’s fired and them that’s about to get fired.”

The great ones knew how to put a bad loss, or even a bad season, in perspective. “We didn’t tackle well today, but we made up for it by not blocking,” McKay said after one tough defeat. And the incomparable Royal put it this way after his Texas team lost a big one, “They cut us up like boarding house pie. And that’s real small pieces.”

Then, there is Bill Belichick.

Before his team had even officially lost to the Giants on Sunday, Belichick had left the field. True, there was only one second left, and the inevitable kneel-down was coming. And it’s also true that Belichick had given Giants’ coach Tom Coughlin a quick hug and handshake when everyone thought the game was over — before the refs put that lone second back on the clock, requiring one last Giants’ snap. Still, the game wasn’t over: 11 Patriot players had to go back on the field to await the final nail in their perfect season’s coffin. And Bill Belichick had taken a powder. So much for teamwork.

Given an opportunity to exhibit a little wit and generosity of spirit at the press conference after his team’s crushing Super Bowl loss, Belichick — as usual — came on surly and petulant. But, then, this is his style — win or lose. He explained the astonishing upset of his Patriot team with these words: “I mean ... look, they played well. They made some plays. We made some plays. In the end, they made a couple more than we did.”

Not only was he not even trying. He made sure everyone knew he wasn’t trying. It’s one thing to lack wit and grace. It’s quite another to feel contempt for them.

The world of sports is full of examples of apt words in defeat. After a fight in which he’d been cut up badly by Gene Tunney, heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey answered his wife’s question, “Oh, Jack, what happened?” by saying, immortally, “Honey, I forgot to duck.” Ronald Reagan used the same phrase with Nancy after he’d been shot by John Hinckley. And why not? The line is irresistible.

Belichick, as some sports fans have pointed out, is football’s Richard Nixon: intelligent, focused, driven, humorless, and borderline paranoid. Maybe not even “borderline.” He is enormously successful at his craft, but seems to gain no particular joy from the success. He does what he does out of compulsion and is the antithesis of the “happy warrior.”

With Belichick, as with Nixon, we see the urge to cheat even when there isn’t any need. Without Watergate, Nixon could still have beaten George McGovern by four touchdowns without ever leaving the White House. And Belichick felt the need to film the Jets’ defensive signals so that his staff could identify them later. The Patriots, with all-world talents Randy Moss and Tom Brady, could have spotted the Jets Ohio and Florida and still won by 300 electoral votes.

But no, Belichick had to get that extra, illegal, electronic edge. (What is it, anyway, with these guys and their fetish for secret tapes?)

And now, there are suspicions that Belichick and the Patriots may have been playing that kind of cheating game before Super Bowl XXXVI —back in 2002. The rumor (first reported in the Boston Herald) is that the Patriots secretly taped a Rams’ practice before the game. This would — not to put too fine a point on it — be cheating. Flat out.

Well, that Super Bowl is ancient history and nothing can be done about the Giants’ dramatic, 20-17 upset victory. The bad news is the current fallout. Senator Arlen Specter seems eager to investigate. As if, with Major League Baseball’s steroids scandal, we didn’t have enough Congressional meddling in sports. Can’t they just stick to what they do best — spending money, spreading earmarks, and ruining the economy?

Bill Belichick might be a genius as a coach, with three Super Bowl victories (and counting) on his résumé. But if his legacy is a Congressional investigation into Videogate, then he will be remembered as the Richard Nixon of football.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NmRmOTZlYjJjYjAyNzhjNGQxY2Y5MTA4NTg3ZTg3ZGE=

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-19-2008, 06:41 PM
The Anti-Fan, 09/19/2007 - Spygate meets Watergate
Jim Gordon
September 19, 2007

Most of the Bill Belichick comparisons I’ve seen connect the cheating New England Patriots coach to shamed baseball slugger Mark McGwire, who famously told a congressional steroid hearing, “I’m not here to talk about the past.” But Belichick, who did give a McGwire-type performance last week (“It’s over and we’re moving on.”) reminds me of someone else.

Someone as secretive as Belichick, someone as paranoid, someone as, well, jowly.

Richard Nixon loved the game of football but wasn’t much of a player.

Ditto Bill Belichick.

Richard Nixon could be petulant with the press.

Ditto Bill Belichick.

Richard Nixon, with a sure-fire victory before him, inexplicably cheated and was caught.

Ditto Bill Belichick.

Richard Nixon, it was said, had the ethics of a rattlesnake.

There the comparison breaks down. Belichick’s rep isn’t nearly that good — at least not among his coaching brethren, who’ve thought Belichick has used “dirty tricks” for years.


The mystery is why, with a clearly superior team, in a league already suspicious of you, you would videotape your opponents’ defensive signals in blatant violation of NFL rules, rules you’d been reminded of just three weeks earlier.

“The Patriots are good … ,” Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor said. “They don’t need to steal signals.”

But, hey, neither did Nixon need to send “the plumbers” to break into the Democratic National Headquarters in the Watergate building to learn his opponent’s strategy. I mean, in the 1972 presidential election, what strategy was going to help George McGovern?

Even the reaction to “Spygate,” as it’s been called, has Watergate parallels.

When the incident began to be traced to the White House, one Nixon backer contemptuously dismissed it a “third-rate burglary.” When Belichick was first accused of cheating, Patriots owner Robert Kraft said it was all about other teams’ jealousy.

But just like with Watergate, where as the evidence mounted, Nixon’s backers ran for the hills, Kraft soon changed his tune, saying, “I had no idea this was going on, but I can tell you this — it won’t happen again… ”

Watergate and Spygate even share a technological component: Nixon was ordered by the Supreme Court to turn over tapes; Belichick is being ordered by a higher authority — the commissioner of the NFL — to turn over his tapes.

The why of it remains the most intriguing question; as ESPN’s Howard Bryant put it about Spygate and Belichick: “What is the personality trait that would make him feel he had to do this?”

What, indeed? As Belichick isn’t addressing that question, we turn to his doppelgänger for insight into the mind-set of successful people who see themselves above the rules:

“When the president does it,” Nixon insisted years after he resigned in disgrace, “that means that it is not illegal.”

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/68809.html

The Patriot
05-19-2008, 06:53 PM
Have you guys heard about Vick yet? Apparently there were some dog-fighting allegations.

HometownGal
05-19-2008, 06:56 PM
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/shelstone92/onebilliontuchdowns.jpg

HometownGal
05-19-2008, 07:01 PM
http://66.79.163.197/_images/articles/2008/01/07/bb1.jpg

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-19-2008, 07:12 PM
Have you guys heard about Vick yet? Apparently there were some dog-fighting allegations.

Oh man..does that mean you have to buy a new Jersey....C'mon...The one you have in barely a year old!!!

BettisFan
05-19-2008, 08:19 PM
Have you guys heard about Vick yet? Apparently there were some dog-fighting allegations.
hahaha nice one...:banging:......trying to get us off topic ehhh :rofl:

SteelersMongol
05-19-2008, 09:54 PM
Oh man..does that mean you have to buy a new Jersey....C'mon...The one you have in barely a year old!!!

:rofl: He already threw it away. He's wearing Red Sox' jersey now.

The Patriot
05-19-2008, 10:07 PM
We just had another no-hitter!

MACH1
05-19-2008, 10:14 PM
We just had another no-hitter!

Probably cheated too.

The Patriot
05-19-2008, 10:29 PM
Probably cheated too.

You wanna try and explain that one to the class?

Preacher
05-19-2008, 11:00 PM
You wanna try and explain that one to the class?


You set up the video tape beyond the outfield wall. Then, you tape the signals the catcher is giving to the pitcher, then the pitch he throws.

After that... you have a couple of analysts review the tapes.

Now this is where it gets real easy. You now sit someone where they can see the signals.. and have them relay them to the batter... signs from the first or thrid baseman lets say.

Easy as pie when you KNOW a fast-ball is coming.

OH.. the other way? SImple. Just tape the hit and run signal.. the swing away signal, and don't forget the stealing signals!


I thought all you Boston fans knew this stuff!!

Galax Steeler
05-20-2008, 04:49 AM
You set up the video tape beyond the outfield wall. Then, you tape the signals the catcher is giving to the pitcher, then the pitch he throws.

After that... you have a couple of analysts review the tapes.

Now this is where it gets real easy. You now sit someone where they can see the signals.. and have them relay them to the batter... signs from the first or thrid baseman lets say.

Easy as pie when you KNOW a fast-ball is coming.

OH.. the other way? SImple. Just tape the hit and run signal.. the swing away signal, and don't forget the stealing signals!


I thought all you Boston fans knew this stuff!!
:toofunny::toofunny:

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-20-2008, 05:31 AM
You wanna try and explain that one to the class?

The rest of the class got it....(go figure...always have to wait on the "special" kid :nerd:)

The Patriot
05-20-2008, 06:33 AM
You set up the video tape beyond the outfield wall. Then, you tape the signals the catcher is giving to the pitcher, then the pitch he throws.

After that... you have a couple of analysts review the tapes.

Now this is where it gets real easy. You now sit someone where they can see the signals.. and have them relay them to the batter... signs from the first or thrid baseman lets say.

Easy as pie when you KNOW a fast-ball is coming.

OH.. the other way? SImple. Just tape the hit and run signal.. the swing away signal, and don't forget the stealing signals!


I thought all you Boston fans knew this stuff!!

Wow genius! I had no idea that helped a pitcher throw a no-hitter. What do batters have signals now?

Aussie_steeler
05-20-2008, 06:34 AM
http://www.mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2006/mfn061023/almada.jpg

Come on LLT. If your gonna go troll fishing at least play with them a little before you reel them in. The real fun is when they put up a big fight. I know its been a quiet season.

Or then again did Preach steal that one from you?

The bag limit for troll fishing is two adult size fish per day down under. Whats the bag limit from where your from?

The Patriot
05-20-2008, 06:34 AM
Do you guys even no what a no-hitter is? Special indeed. :applaudit:

Christ, so many adda' boys tack on after each post without even reading the conversation.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-20-2008, 07:10 AM
Do you guys even no what a no-hitter is? Special indeed. :applaudit:



A no hitter is a party without Teddy Bruschi...right?

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-20-2008, 07:21 AM
http://www.mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2006/mfn061023/almada.jpg

Come on LLT. If your gonna go troll fishing at least play with them a little before you reel them in. The real fun is when they put up a big fight. I know its been a quiet season.



I love fish!!!...unfortunately...with New England fish, you have to be careful. All those Halibut? ....Strangely enough claimed to be Red Snappers not to long ago. (But we all have been around long enough to know that they will always be Flounders)

steeler43pa
05-20-2008, 10:13 AM
You wanna try and explain that one to the class?


Proof that Cheater fans really are not that smart. Try this, email belicheat@cheatriots.org and ask him to explain how it is done.

fansince'76
05-20-2008, 10:14 AM
Have you guys heard about Vick yet? Apparently there were some dog-fighting allegations.

Why bring that up? Justice was actually served in the Vick case. As opposed to this:

Bill Belichick had this to say in today's Boston Globe about the various spying charges levied at him:

"[The video-taping rule] states that any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game.

My interpretation was that you can't utilize anything to assist you during that game. What our camera guys do is clearly not allowed to be used during the game and has never been used during that game that it was shot."

http://nyj.scout.com/2/729989.html

"I didn't accept Bill Belichick's explanation for what happened," Goodell said Tuesday, "and I still don't to this day."

http://sports.aol.com/nfl/story/_a/belichick-lashes-out-at-ex-assistant/20080516205009990001?icid=1615988631x1202539321x12 00305713

Based on Goodell's quote, seems there is still plenty to talk about in regards to Spygate. Namely why the slap on the wrist if he never accepted Belichick's version of the story? I'm sorry, but fining a billionaire (Kraft) $250,000, a guy like Belichick $500,000, and forfeiting a (late) first round draft pick while retaining a top-10 pick in the same round in the same year IS a slap on the wrist. But keep on drinking that RW&B Kool-Aid.

lilyoder6
05-20-2008, 11:48 AM
in my eyes i think there was some injustice in the whole vick ordeal

but back to the pats... Belichick keeps on saying that he didn't know it was against the rules... i mean how can u say u didn't understand the rules when A: the comiss sent a letter to all teams bout video taping B: walsh was told by him not to get caught..

fansince'76
05-20-2008, 11:56 AM
in my eyes i think there was some injustice in the whole vick ordeal.

I'd say you're in the minority on that. Lying to a federal judge and getting popped on a piss test while awaiting sentencing were really stupid moves on his part. He deserved exactly what he got, IMO.

HometownGal
05-20-2008, 12:04 PM
What do batters have signals now?

:idea::dang: Sure they do Einstein. Do you honestly think the 3rd base coach enjoys scratching his ying yangs, picking his nose, pinching his nippies, yanking the flaps on the sides of his head and every other bizarre signal they give their players at the plate?

Dino 6 Rings
05-20-2008, 12:15 PM
Some facts about this case that make it not go away, even though the Pats were clearly and fairly punished for their violations.

Walsh indicated that he knew what he was doing, in taping signals was wrong and was told by his boss to keep it on the hush hush.

The Pats organization, at least some people in it, knew that illegal taping was going on and was being used for an advantage.

Now, for anyone that says "what advantage" or "its only a 10% advantage" I say, Football is a game of inches. If you can find a way, to gain an inch on your opponent and use it, even though it is illegal, you are cheating to increase your chances of changing the outcome of the game in your favor.

I'm passed it, I really don't care anymore. But for any Pats fan to deny the fact they their team cheated, was wrong in doing so, was caught, and was punished correctly, is just being a ridiculous homer. Don't be pssed that you lost the Superbowl as a 2 TD favorite and try to deflect the fact that your team choked toward the defense of a cheating scandal. Suck it, you Lost, suck it up, you got busted cheating. Move on.

The story will stay alive as long as Pats fans let it.

Think about this, go to the Pats Forum and tell me, how many posts on the first page are dedicated to the Pats Cheating Scandal? Once they stop talking about it amongst themselves, only then will it die down. Until then, see you on the field and keep your cameras pointed away from opposing team's coaches.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-20-2008, 12:16 PM
:idea::dang: Sure they do Einstein. Do you honestly think the 3rd base coach enjoys scratching his ying yangs, picking his nose, pinching his nippies, yanking the flaps on the sides of his head and every other bizarre signal they give their players at the plate?

Dang Patriot...you done been dissed...(and and I dont care what Bruschi says .... "DIS"...does NOT stand for Drug Indused Stroke)

lilyoder6
05-20-2008, 01:17 PM
i wasn't talking bout the drug test he was positive 4.. i'm talking bout the dog charges.. the evidence only showed he went to events and gambled.. it was the ppl that knew him and lived on his land that did evrything w/ the dog.. so tech he didn't do anything to the dogsd except betting on them...it's like the state law in PA.. that if ur gun was involved in a murder but u got rid of it yr or so ago u can still be trialed as an accessory.. i just think that since he was invovled in the gambling part of dog fighting that they needed to find a poster child to put away to increase there arguements about animals..

back to the pats
even bob ryan a loyal boston herald writer showed the pats up.. i agree w/ him that the pats are making it worse by trying to cover it up

fansince'76
05-20-2008, 01:33 PM
i wasn't talking bout the drug test he was positive 4.. i'm talking bout the dog charges.. the evidence only showed he went to events and gambled.. it was the ppl that knew him and lived on his land that did evrything w/ the dog.. so tech he didn't do anything to the dogsd except betting on them...

Wrong.

RICHMOND, Virginia (CNN) -- Michael Vick, once one of the highest paid players in the National Football League, was sentenced to 23 months in prison for financing a dogfighting ring and helping to kill pit bulls that did not fight aggressively.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/10/vick.sentenced/index.html

The Patriot
05-20-2008, 04:32 PM
:idea::dang: Sure they do Einstein. Do you honestly think the 3rd base coach enjoys scratching his ying yangs, picking his nose, pinching his nippies, yanking the flaps on the sides of his head and every other bizarre signal they give their players at the plate?

So Lester cheated by deciphering the 3rd base coach's signals from the mound and then pitched a no-hitter. Every conversation is an inevitable digression with you guys!

The Patriot
05-20-2008, 04:37 PM
i wasn't talking bout the drug test he was positive 4.. i'm talking bout the dog charges.. the evidence only showed he went to events and gambled.. it was the ppl that knew him and lived on his land that did evrything w/ the dog.. so tech he didn't do anything to the dogsd except betting on them...it's like the state law in PA.. that if ur gun was involved in a murder but u got rid of it yr or so ago u can still be trialed as an accessory.. i just think that since he was invovled in the gambling part of dog fighting that they needed to find a poster child to put away to increase there arguements about animals..

back to the pats
even bob ryan a loyal boston herald writer showed the pats up.. i agree w/ him that the pats are making it worse by trying to cover it up

:rofl: You believe that over "I misinterpreted the rules." Atleast show some consistency.

fansince'76
05-20-2008, 04:48 PM
:rofl: You believe that over "I misinterpreted the rules."

Why should anybody believe that? Roger "Burn Dem Tapes" Goodell didn't even swallow that c0ck-and-bull explanation.

The Patriot
05-20-2008, 05:33 PM
Why should anybody believe that? Roger "Burn Dem Tapes" Goodell didn't even swallow that c0ck-and-bull explanation.

The difference is Vick probably didn't actually know it was illegal.

MACH1
05-20-2008, 06:02 PM
The difference is Vick probably didn't actually know it was illegal.

Are you high. :doh:

sixstringlass
05-20-2008, 10:41 PM
The difference is Vick probably didn't actually know it was illegal.

After his father begged him for YEARS to stop (http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/08/23/vickdad_0824.html) what he was doing?

Yeah, riiiiiight.

Kittyfish
05-22-2008, 10:03 AM
Not to go off topic (hee), but I wanted to say thank you, LLT, for bringing those articles over. Fascinating reads, and interesting comparisons between Bellichick and Nixon. I know a lot of people are over this and want the whole thing to fade away already, but I for one still want to see more come out of this - IMO, justice hasn't been served yet.

tony hipchest
05-23-2008, 03:23 PM
You wanna try and explain that one to the class?
"...because in the land of "Pats and honey" pine tar and emery boards dont exist." :rolleyes:

Cheating is inherent in the game of baseball. After I hurt my arm in 1976, I couldn't get enough velocity on my sinker. So I cut out part of my glove, on the outside near the thumb hole, and stitched in a piece of an emery board. I was able to pitch for five more years instead of having to drive a school bus.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506E5DC1F30F935A35755C0A9659C8B 63

Bill Lee, who pitched for the Boston Red Sox and Montreal Expos from 1969 to 1982, is author, most recently, of ''The Little Red (Sox) Book.''


....ow...n....ed....

MACH1
05-23-2008, 03:28 PM
Its being reported that belicheat had players that were on IR out practicing with the team. Witch is a big no no. One of their former players is the whistle blower on this one.

fansince'76
05-23-2008, 03:53 PM
Its being reported that belicheat had players that were on IR out practicing with the team. Witch is a big no no. One of their former players is the whistle blower on this one.

Meh - you really think Goodell will take him to task over that? He's been filing fake injury reports for years, after all. How many seasons has Brady been listed as "questionable" with a "shoulder injury" every week now? Two? Three? :rolleyes:

MACH1
05-23-2008, 04:00 PM
Meh - you really think Goodell will take him to task over that? He's been filing fake injury reports for years, after all. How many seasons has Brady been listed as "questionable" with a "shoulder injury" every week now? Two? Three? :rolleyes:

Godell wont do a thing about it but sweep it away as another misinterpretation of the rules or some other sorry ass excuse. :rolleyes:

HometownGal
05-23-2008, 06:37 PM
Godell wont do a thing about it but sweep it away as another misinterpretation of the rules or some other sorry ass excuse. :rolleyes:

He'll fine Beliprick* by taking away one of his new videocams. :chuckle:

The Patriot
05-23-2008, 06:53 PM
Meh - you really think Goodell will take him to task over that? He's been filing fake injury reports for years, after all. How many seasons has Brady been listed as "questionable" with a "shoulder injury" every week now? Two? Three? :rolleyes:

You got to admit, that's pretty funny. Especially when he's breaking all these records. Oh yeah, you wouldn't find that funny.

NJarhead
05-23-2008, 06:55 PM
You got to admit, that's pretty funny. Especially when he's breaking all these rules. Oh yeah, you wouldn't find that funny.

There, I fixed that for you...and you are correct!

fansince'76
05-23-2008, 06:56 PM
You got to admit, that's pretty funny. Especially when he's breaking all these records. Oh yeah, you wouldn't find that funny.

Too bad the team ran out of gas at precisely the wrong time by leaving Brady and the rest of the starters in too long during blowout wins in order for him to get the TD pass record, wasn't it? :coffee:

NJarhead
05-23-2008, 07:00 PM
Too bad the team ran out of gas at precisely the wrong time by leaving Brady and the rest of the starters in too long during blowout wins in order for him to get the TD pass record, wasn't it? :coffee:

Excellent points FS76. I believe that too falls under the catagory of "Sportsmanship." Apparently that word has been omitted from all the dictionaries in the Foxboro area.

fansince'76
05-23-2008, 07:02 PM
Excellent points FS76. I believe that too falls under the catagory of "Sportsmanship." Apparently that word has been omitted from all the dictionaries in the Foxboro area.

In trying to prove a point, they shot themselves in the foot - couldn't have happened to a more deserving bunch. But hey, they got all them records to show for it. :jerkit:

NJarhead
05-23-2008, 07:08 PM
In trying to prove a point, they shot themselves in the foot - couldn't have happened to a more deserving bunch. But hey, they got all them records to show for it. :jerkit:

don't you mean, "...all them records*..."

The Patriot
05-23-2008, 07:32 PM
Too bad the team ran out of gas at precisely the wrong time by leaving Brady and the rest of the starters in too long during blowout wins in order for him to get the TD pass record, wasn't it? :coffee:

So meaningless...

http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/f87d6dd9f5_ltpsmith12102007.jpg

Yet so worth it!

fansince'76
05-23-2008, 07:41 PM
So meaningless...Yet so worth it!

Couldn't agree more. I for one enjoyed how the season concluded immensely. Must suck to get owned by a Manning 2 years in a row.

http://media2.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080203/080203-tom-brady-sacked-hmed-6p.h2.jpghttp://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/04/manning3333.jpg

NJarhead
05-23-2008, 08:21 PM
Couldn't agree more. I for one enjoyed how the season concluded immensely. Must suck to get owned by a Manning 2 years in a row.

http://media2.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080203/080203-tom-brady-sacked-hmed-6p.h2.jpghttp://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/04/manning3333.jpg

This again. Do I need to go get the video clips again (it seems to be all Bostonians understand these days).

The Patriot
05-23-2008, 09:28 PM
You guys were sitting at home. Weren't even contenders. :tt:

fansince'76
05-23-2008, 09:30 PM
You guys were sitting at home. Weren't even contenders. :tt:

I'd rather not make it at all than be exposed as overhyped frauds in front of about a billion or so people. Or did you enjoy watching your team drop their collective pants in front of the world? :moon:

Incidentally, our last SB triumph was still more recent than yours.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 04:56 AM
You guys were sitting at home. Weren't even contenders. :tt:

Who got second place in the Indy 500 last year....Oh yea.....no one CARES.

...and from an ethical point of view...I would always rather we just make the playoffs fairly.... then to win it all and have "CHEATERS" forever stamped on our hollow Lombardies.

I get great satisfaction out of knowing that your team is the Chicago "Black Sox" of our generation. ("Say it isnt so Tommy.":cap:)..and will have the same stigma attached to their record...their accomplishments...and their NAME!!!!

Your Grandchildren will be able to read stories about "Shoeless Tom Brady" and will always question your stance about the legitimacy of this teams "records"

Time to start facing that reality Skippy!!!!:wave:

jjpro11
05-24-2008, 05:33 AM
You got to admit, that's pretty funny. Especially when he's breaking all these records. Oh yeah, you wouldn't find that funny.

all those records made it even sweeter when the giants beat them. we have the best record of them all.. tied for first place with the most super bowl wins in nfl history.

Texasteel
05-24-2008, 06:06 AM
It would seem that the Pattys have been working under their own set of rules for some time, now I am reading that they practicing players that have been put on the IR. It is going to be alright, the comish is going to look into it any day now.

Nothing the Pattys have done in the past or future means anything. They cheated to get what they have, and will find a new way to cheat in the future, they know the comish is not going to touch them so why not.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 07:01 AM
Still waiting for the sportwriter/sports reporter who has the balls to start asking about "Golden Boy" Tom Brady's participation in cheating.

Only one person on the offense wears a radio reciever....only one person would have been recieving those "corrections"...and instructions as to where the defense would be coming from or what pass protection they would be using.

Very simple deductiuon says that ANY quarterback would have to either be either incredibly stupid or was a knowing participant in the cheating.

So......who is going to tear down the Golden Statue? Does anyone have the intestinal fortitude?

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 11:53 AM
I'd rather not make it at all than be exposed as overhyped frauds in front of about a billion or so people. Or did you enjoy watching your team drop their collective pants in front of the world? :moon:

Incidentally, our last SB triumph was still more recent than yours.

If you can call that a SB 'triumph'. The funny thing about that game was, by rule, one team had to win.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 12:07 PM
If you can call that a SB 'triumph'. The funny thing about that game was, by rule, one team had to win.

The funny thing about that game...is that one team was able to win...without electronic assistance. :cylon:

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Still waiting for the sportwriter/sports reporter who has the balls to start asking about "Golden Boy" Tom Brady's participation in cheating.

Only one person on the offense wears a radio reciever....only one person would have been recieving those "corrections"...and instructions as to where the defense would be coming from or what pass protection they would be using.

Very simple deductiuon says that ANY quarterback would have to either be either incredibly stupid or was a knowing participant in the cheating.

So......who is going to tear down the Golden Statue? Does anyone have the intestinal fortitude?

That Golden statue wasn't raised until this season, following the cheating scandle. Before that Brady just had average numbers and was dismissed as an average QB.

Here, let me asteriskize all those Touchdowns for you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Steelers ones are in red. Thanks for them by the way. We wouldn't have even been near the record without your help. :chuckle:

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 12:11 PM
That Golden statue wasn't raised until this season, following the cheating scandle. Before that Brady just had average numbers and was dismissed as an average QB.

Here, let me asteriskize all those Touchdowns for you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Steelers ones are in red. Thanks for them by the way. We wouldn't have even been near the record without your help. :chuckle:

I have to chuckle at your pride in cheating enhanced stats....If you get the chance...be sure and sign the "Suspend Belicheat" petition...(you can call in penance:angel:)

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 12:28 PM
Noticed that as of now...31 teams...The Commish...Ex-Patriot staff members...Ex-Patriot players...and the fans of EVERY other team have come to the conclusion that your team is a tarnished pseudo-legacy ...with 3 Hollow Chocolate Eater Bunnies for Lombardies.

I sleep well at night thinking about Patriot* fans crying themselves to sleep and dreaming about being fans of a team that isnt the laughing stock of the NFL.:applaudit:

But hey...I am thinking about copyrighting t-shirts for Patriot* Fans with the slogan "Embrace the Asterick"::chuckle::chuckle:

I'll put you down for two... since you seem twice as delusional as the typical bandwagon jumper.:laughing::laughing:

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 12:29 PM
I have to chuckle at your pride in cheating enhanced stats....If you get the chance...be sure and sign the "Suspend Belicheat" petition...(you can call in penance:angel:)

Well, yeah. It's obvious the Pats had an unfair advantage. Even though the last time we had a chance to film you had been two years earlier and in that time span you had won a SB and completely changed your coaching staff, I'm sure the majority of your handsignals remained unchanged.

But, knowing that I've already pissed you guys off, does it bother you, cheating aside, that had you held your own end in that game, maybe only letting up a respectful two TDs, Brady still would be a recordless QB?

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 12:49 PM
Well, yeah. It's obvious the Pats had an unfair advantage. Even though the last time we had a chance to film you had been two years earlier and in that time span you had won a SB and completely changed your coaching staff, I'm sure the majority of your handsignals remained unchanged.

But, knowing that I've already pissed you guys off, does it bother you, cheating aside, that had you held your own end in that game, maybe only letting up a respectful two TDs, Brady still would be a recordless QB?

I dont think you will find anyone who gives a yawn about Brady's "record".....Off the top of your head...what was Shoeless Joe Jacksons batting average the year they were caught cheating?

Thats right...noone cares...because their legacy is the same as the Patriots*...50 years from now they are just a black smudge on the history of the NFL...no one will care about any percieved achievements..earned or not earned...

...and you can thank Belichick for that. Everyone will always doubt the current players achievements....always...forever.

(Embrace the Asterick)

Your talking about bradys "Record" in the midst of them losing the Superbowl and being uncovered as cheaters over a several year period...sounds strangely like the Bengal Fans holding desperatly onto a "division chanpionship"..the year that we knowcked them out of the playoffs and brought home the Lombardi. But hey...whatever helps you to justify the biggest choke in history.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 01:03 PM
...That Golden statue wasn't raised until this season, following the cheating scandle. Before that Brady just had average numbers and was dismissed as an average QB.



Wow...you really need to take the price tag off that jersey...you know nothing about your team....

I cant believe you actually said that....I'm embarrassed for you.:doh:

tony hipchest
05-24-2008, 01:04 PM
But, knowing that I've already pissed you guys off, does it bother you, cheating aside, that had you held your own end in that game, maybe only letting up a respectful two TDs, Brady still would be a recordless QB?

please. since youre already livid, does it bother you that if tom brady just held his own and played above a respectful "average" in the final game he could tie* terry bradshaws 4 sb record?

steelerfans dont care about any of tommys records*

were not fixated on them like all patriot fans were with peyton manning, and obsessed with convincing coltfans they were inflated, and meaningless.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 01:17 PM
please. since youre already livid, does it bother you that if tom brady just held his own and played above a respectful "average" in the final game he could tie* terry bradshaws 4 sb record?

steelerfans dont care about any of tommys records*

were not fixated on them like all patriot fans were with peyton manning, and obsessed with convincing coltfans they were inflated, and meaningless.

Tony...I think we hurt his feelings....(or he is taking my advise and cutting the price tags off his brand-spanking new Pats Jersey)

..or maybe he really is Embracing the Asterick!!!!

TackleMeBen
05-24-2008, 01:22 PM
..or maybe he really is Embracing the Asterick!!!!

that is great.... wonder if mr. kraft will want royalities from your new slogan??:chuckle:

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 02:30 PM
that is great.... wonder if mr. kraft will want royalities from your new slogan??:chuckle:

*In my best Johnie Cochran voice*

:thumbsup:"If your team's lost face...you must embrace!":thumbsup:

TackleMeBen
05-24-2008, 02:45 PM
*In my best Johnie Cochran voice*

:thumbsup:"If your team's lost face...you must embrace!":thumbsup:
love it.. that is the best...

lilyoder6
05-24-2008, 02:54 PM
brady will still be a cry baby crying that sportscenter is picking on him and the pats

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 03:32 PM
please. since youre already livid, does it bother you that if tom brady just held his own and played above a respectful "average" in the final game he could tie* terry bradshaws 4 sb record?

You're talking about Superbowl QB performance? :sofunny:

Brady was sacked five times, 29/48 for 266yds passing, 1 td, 0 ints, in what was a pretty average performance.
Roethlisberger was sacked once, 7/16 for 123yds passing, 0 tds, 2 ints, in what was arguably the worst SB performance by a QB EVER.

And don't tell me he got it done. If anything he nearly threw it all away.

Murabma
05-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Great NYT article earlier this month on the suspicion by other NFL teams that the Pats are up to more than just using video cameras to steal signals. Notice how the executive in the article basically says that most of the alleged dirty tricks the competition committee is called to investigate originate in New England. Since I'm a new poster, they won't let me post links, but you can find it by searching the NYT website for "competition committee", may and Patriots.

To my mind, Spygate is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that team has done and is capable of doing. Anyone else notice how may garbage calls they've gotten late in games over the last few years? I'm a Bills fan [INSERT BILLS JOKE HERE] and can tell you first hand that the refs have jobbed us in no few than 3 games against them over the last decade or so. Everyone remembers the Colts AFCCG a few years ago and the Tuck Rule game and even that Ravens game last fall. How come it never seems to even out with those guys? Name me a close game they've lost due to a controversial call late in a game since 2000? Then there are the rumors about opposing coaches' headsets going out at key times at Gillette (ask Del Rio or Marinelli about that) and their lying on their injury report (combine that one with a known HGH user (Harrison) who only got caught by being dumb enough to use his own name and address to have the drugs sent to him and an aging LB corps with heads the size of small planets (a known sign of HGH use power lifters call "the Bloat")), to go with having two of the dirtiest players in the League in the aforementioned Sir Rodney and his understudy, young Vince Wilfork.

It's a POS team, run by a POS coach, plain and simple. Great to see karma catch up to them this past SB and many happy returns to that for them this upcoming season.....

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 03:48 PM
You're talking about Superbowl QB performance? :sofunny:

Brady was sacked five times, 29/48 for 266yds passing, 1 td, 0 ints, in what was a pretty average performance.
Roethlisberger was sacked once, 7/16 for 123yds passing, 0 tds, 2 ints, in what was arguably the worst SB performance by a QB EVER.

And don't tell me he got it done. If anything he nearly threw it all away.

"Nearly threw it away" > "Choked like a fatman at a buffet"

psssssst...Hey skippy..come closer so that I dont embarrass you any more than you are doing to yourself... "an ethical win is preferable to a cheating loss"

you may go now...:wave:

**next time you want to talk....please raise your hand...

...and place it over your mouth. (You'll thank me later.)***

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Great NYT article earlier this month on the suspicion by other NFL teams that the Pats are up to more than just using video cameras to steal signals. Notice how the executive in the article basically says that most of the alleged dirty tricks the competition committee is called to investigate originate in New England. Since I'm a new poster, they won't let me post links, but you can find it by searching the NYT website for "competition committee", may and Patriots.

To my mind, Spygate is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that team has done and is capable of doing. Anyone else notice how may garbage calls they've gotten late in games over the last few years? I'm a Bills fan [INSERT BILLS JOKE HERE] and can tell you first hand that the refs have jobbed us in no few than 3 games against them over the last decade or so. Everyone remembers the Colts AFCCG a few years ago and the Tuck Rule game and even that Ravens game last fall. How come it never seems to even out with those guys? Name me a close game they've lost due to a controversial call late in a game since 2000? Then there are the rumors about opposing coaches' headsets going out at key times at Gillette (ask Del Rio or Marinelli about that) and their lying on their injury report (combine that one with a known HGH user (Harrison) who only got caught by being dumb enough to use his own name and address to have the drugs sent to him and an aging LB corps with heads the size of small planets (a known sign of HGH use power lifters call "the Bloat")), to go with having two of the dirtiest players in the League in the aforementioned Sir Rodney and his understudy, young Vince Wilfork.

It's a POS team, run by a POS coach, plain and simple. Great to see karma catch up to them this past SB and many happy returns to that for them this upcoming season.....

:toofunny: Oh you Bills fans crack me up. We start every season 2-0.

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 03:52 PM
"Nearly threw it away" > "Choked like a fatman at a buffet"

psssssst...Hey skippy..come closer so that I dont embarrass you any more than you are doing to yourself... "an ethical win is preferable to a cheating loss"

you may go now...:wave:

**next time you want to talk....please raise your hand...

...and place it over your mouth. (You'll thank me later.)***

You like to oversimplify everything don't you. :flap:

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 03:54 PM
:toofunny: Oh you Bills fans crack me up. We start every season 2-0.

Without cheating...the Patriots* ARE the Buffalo Bills...0-4 in the superbowl this decade.

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 03:56 PM
Without cheating...the Patriots* ARE the Buffalo Bills...0-4 in the superbowl this decade.

Yeah, but we didn't do it four times in a row! How do you recover? :laughing:

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 03:56 PM
You like to oversimplify everything don't you. :flap:

Simple words for a simple Troll. If you were Irritating and confused ...it would be more than I could handle.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-24-2008, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but we didn't do it four times in a row! How do you recover? :laughing:

By taking satisfaction in the fact that your team isnt the pox of the league?

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 04:00 PM
Simple words for a simple Troll. If you were Irritating and confused ...it would be more than I could handle.

That's not what "oversimplification" means. You're thinking of "simplification". Two entirely different meanings but the words are similar so I can understand how you might mix them up.:wink02:

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 04:01 PM
By taking satisfaction in the fact that your team isnt the pox of the league?

How's that working out for you?

Murabma
05-24-2008, 06:28 PM
:toofunny: Oh you Bills fans crack me up. We start every season 2-0.

It's arrogance like that that's going to make it all the more fun when we bitch slap you all the back to Foxboro on your way down one of these years (I'm hoping it's this year), but then I'm sure you'll just go root for the 'Boys like you used to or whoever the next hot team is. I've never seen a bigger bandwagon fanbase than the one that supports the Cheatahs......

HometownGal
05-24-2008, 06:37 PM
You're talking about Superbowl QB performance? :sofunny:

Brady was sacked five times, 29/48 for 266yds passing, 1 td, 0 ints, in what was a pretty average performance.
Roethlisberger was sacked once, 7/16 for 123yds passing, 0 tds, 2 ints, in what was arguably the worst SB performance by a QB EVER.

And don't tell me he got it done. If anything he nearly threw it all away.

Did you watch the same SB XL that the rest of us watched, oh exalted chowderhead?

You conveniently left out the TD Ben scored with his legs (and yes - it was a TD). The Steelers had close to 200 yards on the ground that day so obviously the running attack was effective and YES - Ben did what he needed to do to get 'r done. :flap:

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 06:42 PM
Did you watch the same SB XL that the rest of us watched, oh exalted chowderhead?

You conveniently left out the TD Ben scored with his legs (and yes - it was a TD). The Steelers had close to 200 yards on the ground that day so obviously the running attack was effective and YES - Ben did what he needed to do to get 'r done. :flap:

That wasn't a Touchdown. Just ask the Seahawks fans.

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 06:55 PM
It's arrogance like that that's going to make it all the more fun when we bitch slap you all the back to Foxboro on your way down one of these years (I'm hoping it's this year), but then I'm sure you'll just go root for the 'Boys like you used to or whoever the next hot team is. I've never seen a bigger bandwagon fanbase than the one that supports the Cheatahs......

Bandwagon? Your franchise already has one foot out the door with a oneway ticket to Toronto in hand. When did we last lose to the Bills? five years ago right? Something around there?

Remember like two years ago on the very first play of the season you sacked Brady, he fumbled, and you scored a touchdown but you still lost? I liked that game.:sofunny:

Preacher
05-24-2008, 07:04 PM
That wasn't a Touchdown. Just ask the Seahawks fans.


Hey... (as HTG so delicately put it).. CHOWDERHEAD...


Since you all up in NE trust camera's so much...

TRUST THIS ONE


http://www.steelertribute.com/XL_ben_is_in.jpge]

HometownGal
05-24-2008, 07:21 PM
That wasn't a Touchdown. Just ask the Seahawks fans.

Sure it was and we did it without videotaping the Waaaahawks' defensive signals. Imagine that. :chuckle:

Murabma
05-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Bandwagon? Your franchise already has one foot out the door with a oneway ticket to Toronto in hand. When did we last lose to the Bills? five years ago right? Something around there?

Remember like two years ago on the very first play of the season you sacked Brady, he fumbled, and you scored a touchdown but you still lost? I liked that game.:sofunny:

I figured you would--here's what TMQ said about the wonderful officiating in that game:

"After the multiple zebra miscues of the playoffs, we have a new officiating uniform, but do we have new results? The offensive pass interference call against Tim Carter of the Giants with four minutes remaining Sunday, negating a first down and leading to the game-deciding interception on the next snap, looked bogus -- and I speak as someone who believes offensive pass interference should be called more often. The Patriots were flagged for just one 5-yard infraction, although there were at least four plays on which a Patriots offensive lineman wrapped both arms around a Buffalo pass-rusher, and the Flying Elvii benefited from an extremely convenient inadvertent whistle that ended a play when a Buffalo runner had 50 yards of green grass between him and the end zone.

Meanwhile, the Bills were hit with seven penalties, including a ticky-tack nudge-in-the-back call that wiped out a fourth-quarter first down in New England territory and changed a scoring opportunity into a punt. Worst, it is outrageous that no flag flew when Cincinnati's Robert Geathers dove at Kansas City quarterback Trent Green while he was sliding. The feet-first-slide rule is unambiguous: "Whenever a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground, the ball is dead." Any contact constitutes unnecessary roughness. Geathers pile-drived into Green as he slide, and the pile-drive is itself illegal. Not only should flags have flown, Geathers should have been ejected. Instead, the officials were staring off into space.

Come on Mike Pereira, supervisor of NFL officials, your guys are messing up week in and week out. Maybe the league needs new blood in this department: Pereira is no Jerry Seeman, that's for sure. And maybe NFL officials -- who work part-time, unlike the full-time officials of other pro sports -- simply are not up to the task as weekend warriors. The National Football League is the richest sport. Wouldn't some funding for full-time officials be worth a try?"

Truly one of the worst officiated games I've ever seen. He didn't mention my personal favorite, when a Pats DE was literally two steps over the line before the ball was snapped and wasn't called for offsides (on a key sack, no less--you went on for a safety on the very next play and won by 2). I've got TIVO and watched that play over and over and was just stunned. How the F can a ref not call the easiest call in the world to make unless the fix is in? That game was just one of several over the last few years when we got absolutely screwed by the refs against you--knowing what we now know about how low NE will go to win, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out those refs got a big fat check from Bob Kraft.

Any response to the substance of my original post beyond the name calling and cheap shots? Or do the facts lining up to show how bad your team cheats just stun you into silence?

PS On the Bills having one foot in Toronto, it's funny, but we sold 50,000 season tix this year after several mediocre at best years, in a city 20% the size of Boston. I seem to recall the Pats having 19,000 season ticket holders in 1992, only a few years after losing to the Bears in the SB. I know--I lived in that dump then. Hello, bandwagon? It was so funny this year, reading posts on Bills boards about Pats "fans" who came to Buffalo to see the game (of course because in NE, only corporate types can afford or even get access to the highest priced tix in the League), "fans" who didn't know that the Pats had lost two SBs before 2000 or who had to agree to buy shots for Bills fans who were able to tell them who their QB was against the Bears, when they didn't know the answer themselves (one guy said he got completely sloshed on that one).

PSS Watched that Giants SB lately--I do, on a weekly basis--the biggest choke job in NFL history, bar none. The pain of losing 4 SBs is nothing compared to choking the chicken like that on the sport's largest stage. Even better, Joey Porter is right--everybody in the League this year is gunning to pull a "Vince Wilfork" on your team this year--I suspect a long list of IR players in NE this season......

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Hey... (as HTG so delicately put it).. CHOWDERHEAD...


Since you all up in NE trust camera's so much...

TRUST THIS ONE


http://www.steelertribute.com/XL_ben_is_in.jpge]

It's an obtical illusion created by the holographic jerseys the Steelers wore. Haven't you heard this? It's all over the Seahawks boards.

The Patriot
05-24-2008, 09:54 PM
I figured you would--here's what TMQ said about the wonderful officiating in that game:

"After the multiple zebra miscues of the playoffs, we have a new officiating uniform, but do we have new results? The offensive pass interference call against Tim Carter of the Giants with four minutes remaining Sunday, negating a first down and leading to the game-deciding interception on the next snap, looked bogus -- and I speak as someone who believes offensive pass interference should be called more often. The Patriots were flagged for just one 5-yard infraction, although there were at least four plays on which a Patriots offensive lineman wrapped both arms around a Buffalo pass-rusher, and the Flying Elvii benefited from an extremely convenient inadvertent whistle that ended a play when a Buffalo runner had 50 yards of green grass between him and the end zone.

Meanwhile, the Bills were hit with seven penalties, including a ticky-tack nudge-in-the-back call that wiped out a fourth-quarter first down in New England territory and changed a scoring opportunity into a punt. Worst, it is outrageous that no flag flew when Cincinnati's Robert Geathers dove at Kansas City quarterback Trent Green while he was sliding. The feet-first-slide rule is unambiguous: "Whenever a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground, the ball is dead." Any contact constitutes unnecessary roughness. Geathers pile-drived into Green as he slide, and the pile-drive is itself illegal. Not only should flags have flown, Geathers should have been ejected. Instead, the officials were staring off into space.

Come on Mike Pereira, supervisor of NFL officials, your guys are messing up week in and week out. Maybe the league needs new blood in this department: Pereira is no Jerry Seeman, that's for sure. And maybe NFL officials -- who work part-time, unlike the full-time officials of other pro sports -- simply are not up to the task as weekend warriors. The National Football League is the richest sport. Wouldn't some funding for full-time officials be worth a try?"

Truly one of the worst officiated games I've ever seen. He didn't mention my personal favorite, when a Pats DE was literally two steps over the line before the ball was snapped and wasn't called for offsides (on a key sack, no less--you went on for a safety on the very next play and won by 2). I've got TIVO and watched that play over and over and was just stunned. How the F can a ref not call the easiest call in the world to make unless the fix is in? That game was just one of several over the last few years when we got absolutely screwed by the refs against you--knowing what we now know about how low NE will go to win, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out those refs got a big fat check from Bob Kraft.

Any response to the substance of my original post beyond the name calling and cheap shots? Or do the facts lining up to show how bad your team cheats just stun you into silence?

PS On the Bills having one foot in Toronto, it's funny, but we sold 50,000 season tix this year after several mediocre at best years, in a city 20% the size of Boston. I seem to recall the Pats having 19,000 season ticket holders in 1992, only a few years after losing to the Bears in the SB. I know--I lived in that dump then. Hello, bandwagon? It was so funny this year, reading posts on Bills boards about Pats "fans" who came to Buffalo to see the game (of course because in NE, only corporate types can afford or even get access to the highest priced tix in the League), "fans" who didn't know that the Pats had lost two SBs before 2000 or who had to agree to buy shots for Bills fans who were able to tell them who their QB was against the Bears, when they didn't know the answer themselves (one guy said he got completely sloshed on that one).

PSS Watched that Giants SB lately--I do, on a weekly basis--the biggest choke job in NFL history, bar none. The pain of losing 4 SBs is nothing compared to choking the chicken like that on the sport's largest stage. Even better, Joey Porter is right--everybody in the League this year is gunning to pull a "Vince Wilfork" on your team this year--I suspect a long list of IR players in NE this season......
Oh yeah. Delicious tears. How I love them. :blurp:

Aussie_steeler
05-24-2008, 10:17 PM
It's an obtical illusion created by the holographic jerseys the Steelers wore. Haven't you heard this? It's all over the Seahawks boards.

Its your optical illusion created by an incorrect prescription

http://weblogs.cw33.com/news/opinion/expressyourself/Sexy%20Specs.jpg

lilyoder6
05-24-2008, 11:26 PM
lol.. how can that be an optical illusion..


and do u remember in the past when u played the bills that u video taped there signals and thats y u were able to beat them??
i hope buf beats the pats and paul p destroys tom on a inside blitz

fansince'76
05-25-2008, 08:24 AM
If you can call that a SB 'triumph'. The funny thing about that game was, by rule, one team had to win.

Yes, I do. Winning one SB by 11 points > cheating your way to 3 SB wins* by a combined 9 points and choking your ass off in another SB that you were forced to play on the up and up in. :coffee:

fansince'76
05-25-2008, 08:27 AM
That wasn't a Touchdown. Just ask the Seahawks fans.

It was a fumble. Just ask the Raiders' fans. Funny thing was that one was ruled a fumble on the field initially and overturned in the booth. Wonder if one of Kraft's shysters were present in the booth during that game like there was during the Matt Walsh testimony/interrogation/beatdown by Goodell. :coffee:

Murabma
05-25-2008, 10:18 AM
Oh yeah. Delicious tears. How I love them. :blurp:

Still waiting for a substantive response to my posts, rather than one liners---got nothing to say to the multiple allegations against your team, since you know in your heart that they're all true and that you cheated your way to three SBs?

Must be a lot of fun being hated by the fan base of every other team in the League--oh, wait, we're all just "haters" I'll bet. Keep trying, pal, and keep telling yourself that if it makes you and your compadres feel any better.....

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 10:19 AM
It was a fumble. Just ask the Raiders' fans. Funny thing was that one was ruled a fumble on the field initially and overturned in the booth. Wonder if one of Kraft's shysters were present in the booth during that game like there was during the Matt Walsh testimony/interrogation/beatdown by Goodell. :coffee:

His arm was moving forward. That was the ruling. :wink02:

lilyoder6
05-25-2008, 10:31 AM
i'm sry but we still didn't choke in the superbowl.. and didn't cheat to get there :checkit:

MACH1
05-25-2008, 10:57 AM
Oops. hit the button twice.

MACH1
05-25-2008, 10:59 AM
Yes, I do. Winning one SB by 11 points > cheating your way to 3 SB wins* by a combined 9 points and choking your ass off in another SB that you were forced to play on the up and up in. :coffee:


Maybe we should ask it what the score was in 85'. You know the Superbowl they didn't cheat in.

It was a 46-10 rout of the patriots*. :rofl:

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 11:16 AM
Still waiting for a substantive response to my posts, rather than one liners---got nothing to say to the multiple allegations against your team, since you know in your heart that they're all true and that you cheated your way to three SBs?

Must be a lot of fun being hated by the fan base of every other team in the League--oh, wait, we're all just "haters" I'll bet. Keep trying, pal, and keep telling yourself that if it makes you and your compadres feel any better.....

Alright, here's a response. That article referred to the Patriots as the Flying Elvi; thus I can only assume it was written by Gregg Easterbrook: ESPN sportswriter and avid anti-Semite. Come on, he comes out with shit every week. Anything to glorify his precious Colts. You'll have to do better.

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 11:19 AM
Maybe we should ask it what the score was in 85'. You know the Superbowl they didn't cheat in.

It was a 46-10 rout of the patriots*. :rofl:

Against the 85 Bears, arguably one of the greatest Superbowl teams. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we were the only team to even score on them throughout the entire playoffs.

millwalldavey
05-25-2008, 11:40 AM
Alright, here's a response. That article referred to the Patriots as the Flying Elvi; thus I can only assume it was written by Gregg Easterbrook: ESPN sportswriter and avid anti-Semite. Come on, he comes out with shit every week. Anything to glorify his precious Colts. You'll have to do better.


At least the Colts won the Super Bowl legitimately.

MACH1
05-25-2008, 11:57 AM
Against the 85 Bears, arguably one of the greatest Superbowl teams. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we were the only team to even score on them throughout the entire playoffs.

Who cares!!!! They still had their a** handed to them.

Murabma
05-25-2008, 12:17 PM
Alright, here's a response. That article referred to the Patriots as the Flying Elvi; thus I can only assume it was written by Gregg Easterbrook: ESPN sportswriter and avid anti-Semite. Come on, he comes out with shit every week. Anything to glorify his precious Colts. You'll have to do better.

Any real fan knows that "TMQ" is indeed Gregg Easterbrook, you shouldn't need the "flying Elvii" reference to figure that out--doesn't make what he writes incorrect, no matter how much Pats fans hate him. He calls it like he sees it and isn't beholden to the League when doing so (unlike plenty of other writers who seem to do whatever their masters tell them, you know, those masters with large TV contracts with the League to protect). If you actually watched that game, you'd know he was correct on the officiating. I'm still waiting for some citations to late, game changing controversial calls that went against New England, BTW--we can all think of tons that went in the Pats' favor off the tops of our heads, but if it was truly random, wouldn't it balance out at some point? Speaking of which, nice article in the Times today on how Betfair.com (a large internet based sports gambling site in the UK) has witnessed circumstantial evidence of shenanigans in sports via sudden changes in betting lines--that, plus the Donaghy scandal help point out that someone getting to the refs in the NFL is not all that far fetched. Who says it has to be gamblers doing so--after all, money is money. If a certain billionaire owner or team wanted to make sure that they won fairly or not, do you think they'd be able to afford what that might cost as easily as a bookmaker?

How about the NYT article I first mentioned that quoted a competition committee member basically saying that the Pats are far and away the team they get the most complaints about in terms of unethical behavior? Or how about Peter King's column from the combine in late Feb., when he said that privately coaches and players he knew were furious with New England and that they all thought there was way too much smoke coming out of that team for there not to be fire? I could go on and on....


PS That anti-Semitism jibe with Easterbrook is also getting a bit old, and really has nothing to do with any of this unless you think he doesn't like Kraft because Kraft happens to be Jewish (as are several other owners in the League)--is that what you're saying?. (If so, why does he seem to have it in only for the Patriots and not, say, the Bucs, owned by the orthodox Malcolm Glazer and his family, or the Browns, owned by Randy Lerner?) If you ever read the actual thing he got bounced for (and not just bounced, but "unpersonned"--i.e., overnight ESPN/Disney just took down anything he'd ever written--like something out of Orwell) he was actually holding Jewish studio executives to a higher standard when it comes to movie violence, considering recent world history. In his view they of all people should no better than to foment senseless violence in society via the movies. His choice of words (in particular mentioning Jewish movie executives and greed in the same sentence) was poor admittedly, but his idea was not. One of his big bugaboos is movie violence and how it is permitted while sex is not.

fansince'76
05-25-2008, 12:47 PM
Any real fan knows that "TMQ" is indeed Gregg Easterbrook, you shouldn't need the "flying Elvii" reference to figure that out--doesn't make what he writes incorrect, no matter how much Pats fans hate him.

They hate anybody who doesn't hang on the collective nutsack of the Patriots*. The RW&B Kool-Aid drinking bandwagon consistently and pretty much constantly badmouths LaDainian Tomlinson ever since he called out their "Super-Genius God-King" HC and the rest of the team for being the collection of classless pricks they are.

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 01:02 PM
Oh, Gregg Easterbrook. You had the best Kill Bill review I've ever seen. :rofl:
Yes, there are plenty of Christian and other Hollywood executives who worship money above all else, promoting for profit the adulation of violence. Does that make it right for Jewish executives to worship money above all else, by promoting for profit the adulation of violence? Recent European history alone ought to cause Jewish executives to experience second thoughts about glorifying the killing of the helpless as a fun lifestyle choice.

Listen Buffalo Bill, there is no Ref favoritism, atleast none instituted by the League. That would be the dumbest move in the history of Sports. Think about.

millwalldavey
05-25-2008, 01:13 PM
They hate anybody who doesn't hang on the collective nutsack of the Patriots*. The RW&B Kool-Aid drinking bandwagon consistently and pretty much constantly badmouths LaDainian Tomlinson ever since he called out their "Super-Genius God-King" HC and the rest of the team for being the collection of classless pricks they are.

When Bush leaves office, the Pats will fall from their lofty heights. I still think it's all connected.

HometownGal
05-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we were the only team to even score on them throughout the entire playoffs.

And that got you what? A :cookie:?

No one remembers the Super Bowl losers.

TackleMeBen
05-25-2008, 01:47 PM
cant just belichick go away.. i mean far far far away, i hear sebria is a great place to live..lol

Murabma
05-25-2008, 01:50 PM
Oh, Gregg Easterbrook. You had the best Kill Bill review I've ever seen. :rofl:


Listen Buffalo Bill, there is no Ref favoritism, atleast none instituted by the League. That would be the dumbest move in the history of Sports. Think about.

Who said it was instituted by the League? Read what I wrote. Snappy one-liners don't win arguments. Still waiting on that controversial call that lost the Pats a game late in the 4th or a substantive response to the other charges against your team.....

PS That Easterbrook quote was pretty much what I'd said earlier, so not quite sure why you pulled it out.....

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 01:59 PM
No one remembers the Super Bowl losers.
Did you hear that Murbaba?

Murabma
05-25-2008, 02:04 PM
Did you hear that Murbaba?

Still waiting, butthole.....

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 02:07 PM
Who said it was instituted by the League? Read what I wrote. Snappy one-liners don't win arguments. Still waiting on that controversial call that lost the Pats a game late in the 4th or a substantive response to the other charges against your team.....

PS That Easterbrook quote was pretty much what I'd said earlier, so not quite sure why you pulled it out.....

I heard what you said and saying that Jewish Executives should be held to higher standards when it comes to violence in moves because they should have learned from the Holocaust is as bogus a statement as I have heard. Nobody's religion should be taken into acount when it comes to their profession. You can't blame the Jews for violence in movies.

Secondly, gamblers would pay off refs to favor the unfavored. That's how they make money. If you want to pose and argument then state it. Just don't post Easterbrook articles and ramble on in page long posts.

Murabma
05-25-2008, 05:35 PM
I heard what you said and saying that Jewish Executives should be held to higher standards when it comes to violence in moves because they should have learned from the Holocaust is as bogus a statement as I have heard. Nobody's religion should be taken into acount when it comes to their profession. You can't blame the Jews for violence in movies.

Secondly, gamblers would pay off refs to favor the unfavored. That's how they make money. If you want to pose and argument then state it. Just don't post Easterbrook articles and ramble on in page long posts.

I'll make it really simple for you, since you seem to have not quite gotten it the first couple of times around--who's to say that a win at all costs billionaire owner can't bribe refs as easily as gamblers? Money is money, after all. Still waiting on all those times the Pats got jobbed by the refs late in a game. Funny how that one only seems to work one way.....

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 06:21 PM
I'll make it really simple for you, since you seem to have not quite gotten it the first couple of times around--who's to say that a win at all costs billionaire owner can't bribe refs as easily as gamblers? Money is money, after all. Still waiting on all those times the Pats got jobbed by the refs late in a game. Funny how that one only seems to work one way.....

Nope, Pats are just good. If the refs really favored them they would have done it in the Superbowl but there were no penalties in the entire 2nd half. So I don't know what your logic is other then the fact that you lose all the time.

millwalldavey
05-25-2008, 06:51 PM
At least the Bills were legit in thier losses

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 07:12 PM
At least the Bills were legit in thier losses

:applaudit:

fansince'76
05-25-2008, 07:23 PM
No one remembers the Super Bowl losers.
Did you hear that Murbaba?

Two of those losses occurred against a Cowboys team that the current Pats* would be lucky to stay within 3 TDs of if they played them now, even with the benefit of illegally-taped-from-the-sideline signals. Your team just ain't all that, despite what you would like to believe. I think the bitter disappointment (for you, anyway) of this past February proved that emphatically, no? :coffee:

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Two of those losses occurred against a Cowboys team that the current Pats* would be lucky to stay within 3 TDs of if they played them now, even with the benefit of illegally-taped-from-the-sideline signals. Your team just ain't all that, despite what you would like to believe. I think the bitter disappointment (for you, anyway) of this past February proved that emphatically, no? :coffee:

What about the other two? :chuckle:

Murabma
05-25-2008, 08:31 PM
Nope, Pats are just good. If the refs really favored them they would have done it in the Superbowl but there were no penalties in the entire 2nd half. So I don't know what your logic is other then the fact that you lose all the time.

Right in the middle of the breaking of a major story on their cheating, a crooked ref is going to take a flyer that it won't get so far as to nail him. Yeah, right. Not saying it's happened with the Pats, but am saying it wouldn't surprise me all that much considering (a) the Pats are now known cheaters and suspected by about everyone in the League of doing a lot more than just what they've been caught doing so far, (b) the oddly high number of controversial calls late in the game in the Pats' favor over the last few years, (c) the fact that this coach and owner seem to have a "win at all costs" mentality that borders on psychotic and (d) the fact that at least one ref in a major sport has been found to be on the take and apparently has claimed to have information implicating others.

(c) reminds me of a great NYT article on Kraft the year of the Steelers-Seahawks SB when he was actually saying how much America wanted to see the Pats in their 3rd SB in a row and were so greatly disappointed they weren't there--his wife (you know, the one with all the money) basically said, "Get over yourself, Bob" in the interview. He came across as a completely narcissistic a-hole. I mean, this is a guy who waived his SB ring under Putin's nose, as if a man with a fortune estimated at $40 billion (whoever said Russia isn't a kleptocracy?) would be impressed by a SB victory. Just plain odd, if you ask me.....

PS, still waiting on an example of them getting jobbed by the refs late in a game on a controversial call (and by that I mean controversial outside NE--you know, like the Bills game in 2006 commented on by a member of the national media (even if it's one you don't like) or the AFCCG with the Colts (I had Tivo-ed as well and couldn't get over watching Marcus Pollard's jersey get ripped off his back in front of a ref on two successive plays late in the game, yet no flag), the Tuck Rule or even last year's Ravens game, when at least one Ravens player got fined for complaining about the officiating, which reminds me of the "Just Give It To Them" Bills-Pats game in the late 90s when Andre Reed also got fined for repeating what he overheard a ref say to another ref on one of several late in the game controversial calls that went the Pats' way.....

The Patriot
05-25-2008, 11:15 PM
Right in the middle of the breaking of a major story on their cheating, a crooked ref is going to take a flyer that it won't get so far as to nail him. Yeah, right. Not saying it's happened with the Pats, but am saying it wouldn't surprise me all that much considering (a) the Pats are now known cheaters and suspected by about everyone in the League of doing a lot more than just what they've been caught doing so far, (b) the oddly high number of controversial calls late in the game in the Pats' favor over the last few years, (c) the fact that this coach and owner seem to have a "win at all costs" mentality that borders on psychotic and (d) the fact that at least one ref in a major sport has been found to be on the take and apparently has claimed to have information implicating others.

(c) reminds me of a great NYT article on Kraft the year of the Steelers-Seahawks SB when he was actually saying how much America wanted to see the Pats in their 3rd SB in a row and were so greatly disappointed they weren't there--his wife (you know, the one with all the money) basically said, "Get over yourself, Bob" in the interview. He came across as a completely narcissistic a-hole. I mean, this is a guy who waived his SB ring under Putin's nose, as if a man with a fortune estimated at $40 billion (whoever said Russia isn't a kleptocracy?) would be impressed by a SB victory. Just plain odd, if you ask me.....

PS, still waiting on an example of them getting jobbed by the refs late in a game on a controversial call (and by that I mean controversial outside NE--you know, like the Bills game in 2006 commented on by a member of the national media (even if it's one you don't like) or the AFCCG with the Colts (I had Tivo-ed as well and couldn't get over watching Marcus Pollard's jersey get ripped off his back in front of a ref on two successive plays late in the game, yet no flag), the Tuck Rule or even last year's Ravens game, when at least one Ravens player got fined for complaining about the officiating, which reminds me of the "Just Give It To Them" Bills-Pats game in the late 90s when Andre Reed also got fined for repeating what he overheard a ref say to another ref on one of several late in the game controversial calls that went the Pats' way.....
What are you talking about? You obviously have no concept of how this league works. The owners are business partners. They each own a piece of the cake. It's about making money like every corporation and they make the majority of their money collectively. No surplus amount of money from a championship would be worth the financial ruin that could result from a retired official coming out and stating that all the games were fixed. Why take such an unnecessary risk? It's simple logic.

The Ravens got fined because they were idiots. The refs try to call the games the best they can. Should the Patriots have lost that game? Odds are they should have but that the refs were paid off. That's the first thing losers jump on. Try your Roswell stuff on somebody else.

Murabma
05-26-2008, 12:10 PM
What are you talking about? You obviously have no concept of how this league works. The owners are business partners. They each own a piece of the cake. It's about making money like every corporation and they make the majority of their money collectively. No surplus amount of money from a championship would be worth the financial ruin that could result from a retired official coming out and stating that all the games were fixed. Why take such an unnecessary risk? It's simple logic.

The Ravens got fined because they were idiots. The refs try to call the games the best they can. Should the Patriots have lost that game? Odds are they should have but that the refs were paid off. That's the first thing losers jump on. Try your Roswell stuff on somebody else.

You just don't get it--as I said earlier, who's to say it's about the money, especially when billionaires are involved? I think it's clear to all that your coach has a "win at all costs" mentality and will do whatever it takes to win and I suspect that your owner does, too. It doesn't have to be about the money. Kraft waving his SB ring under Putin's nose speaks volumes to me in terms of how much he cares about winning. I might have agreed with you a year ago about bribing refs being out there, but since then we've had some inkling both in terms of what your team is capable of and also of refs in a major sport actually being on the take, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

BTW, for most of these billionaire owners if they wanted a higher profit margin they'd invest their money somewhere else. For ex., I've read that the Bills were 7th in revenue last year with $35 million in net income (largely because Wilson has no debt on the books)--with the team valued at $800 million or so, that's what, something like a 4.25% return. You're better off investing in Treasuries or TIPS in most environments. While economics plays its part, most NFL owners do this for the vanity of owning an NFL franchise--for many of them (Jones and Snyder also come to mind here) it's as much about ego as it is dollars, IMHO.

Even if it was "about the money", fewer revenues are shared these days than you think. Look at Kraft's jacking up season tix by 30-40% this year--certainly the premium seat income and luxury box income is not shared, nor are revenues from things like Patriot Park or whatever the heck they call that shared project with CBS (hello, conflict of interest anyone?) they're developing next to the stadium. Tough to get folks too excited about that when you're 8-8, no? In addition, as we've seen once you're a winning franchise, players take less to play for you, so all in there's still an economic incentive for an individual team to cheat.

PS Still waiting on that Pats getting screwed late in the 4th by a controversial (outside NE) bad call. Wouldn't you think that would have evened out by now, I mean, how many of those can you dish out (I'd say 8-10 by now) without taking one without it looking at least a little odd. Giving up on that 'cause you ain't got one?

lilyoder6
05-26-2008, 12:21 PM
go murabma go :popcorn:

The Patriot
05-26-2008, 02:12 PM
You just don't get it--as I said earlier, who's to say it's about the money, especially when billionaires are involved? I think it's clear to all that your coach has a "win at all costs" mentality and will do whatever it takes to win and I suspect that your owner does, too. It doesn't have to be about the money. Kraft waving his SB ring under Putin's nose speaks volumes to me in terms of how much he cares about winning. I might have agreed with you a year ago about bribing refs being out there, but since then we've had some inkling both in terms of what your team is capable of and also of refs in a major sport actually being on the take, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

BTW, for most of these billionaire owners if they wanted a higher profit margin they'd invest their money somewhere else. For ex., I've read that the Bills were 7th in revenue last year with $35 million in net income (largely because Wilson has no debt on the books)--with the team valued at $800 million or so, that's what, something like a 4.25% return. You're better off investing in Treasuries or TIPS in most environments. While economics plays its part, most NFL owners do this for the vanity of owning an NFL franchise--for many of them (Jones and Snyder also come to mind here) it's as much about ego as it is dollars, IMHO.

Even if it was "about the money", fewer revenues are shared these days than you think. Look at Kraft's jacking up season tix by 30-40% this year--certainly the premium seat income and luxury box income is not shared, nor are revenues from things like Patriot Park or whatever the heck they call that shared project with CBS (hello, conflict of interest anyone?) they're developing next to the stadium. Tough to get folks too excited about that when you're 8-8, no? In addition, as we've seen once you're a winning franchise, players take less to play for you, so all in there's still an economic incentive for an individual team to cheat.
I want to make sure I'm hearing this right. You think that the Patriots pay off officiating crews to favor them in games and your sole supporting evidence is the presumption that Kraft wants to win and that Tim Donaghy was caught betting on games in the NBA.
:toofunny:
Honestly, maybe Ralph Wilson doesn't want to win but most franchise owners don't beat to that mantra. NFL officials aren't common street thugs. You can't just buy them out. Your argument is ridiculous.

PS Still waiting on that Pats getting screwed late in the 4th by a controversial (outside NE) bad call. Wouldn't you think that would have evened out by now, I mean, how many of those can you dish out (I'd say 8-10 by now) without taking one without it looking at least a little odd. Giving up on that 'cause you ain't got one?
Teams rarely get screwed. The only reason fans think the refs are bias is because the fans are bias themselves. But if your pissing yourself for an example I'll think of one.
They lost the flucking Superbowl!!!!! Not in an absolute way, in a very close game that a paid-off ref could have easily influenced but they just let the teams play. The game clock official even stopped the clock accidently, giving the Giants some extra time which got a bunch of sour Pats fans all worked up. That doesn't mean it influenced the outcome of the game. You can't linger on something everytime an official makes a minor error. It's gonna happen.

Poor argument. :coffee:

lilyoder6
05-26-2008, 05:03 PM
they don't pay the officials.. right now they are just paying hush money to ex employees so they don't talk about "spygate"

Murabma
05-26-2008, 09:33 PM
I want to make sure I'm hearing this right. You think that the Patriots pay off officiating crews to favor them in games and your sole supporting evidence is the presumption that Kraft wants to win and that Tim Donaghy was caught betting on games in the NBA.
:toofunny:
Honestly, maybe Ralph Wilson doesn't want to win but most franchise owners don't beat to that mantra. NFL officials aren't common street thugs. You can't just buy them out. Your argument is ridiculous.

Teams rarely get screwed. The only reason fans think the refs are bias is because the fans are bias themselves. But if your pissing yourself for an example I'll think of one.
They lost the flucking Superbowl!!!!! Not in an absolute way, in a very close game that a paid-off ref could have easily influenced but they just let the teams play. The game clock official even stopped the clock accidently, giving the Giants some extra time which got a bunch of sour Pats fans all worked up. That doesn't mean it influenced the outcome of the game. You can't linger on something everytime an official makes a minor error. It's gonna happen.

Poor argument. :coffee:

Didn't say they were actually paying them--said it wouldn't surprise me, after all we've learned the last few months between Spygate and Donaghy, plus the incredibly bogus officiating they've been the beneficiaries of for years.

On the SB clock thing, the only folks you hear talking about that are Pats fans (some guy actually had a Youtube video on it, but forgot the basic fact that the Fox TV clock was not the actual game clock used, which apparently operated correctly). I asked for a case where it was a controversial call acknowledged to be such beyond the Pats' immediate fanbase (i.e., objective folks also agree you were screwed, kind of like the Tuck Rule or the Colts game or the Bills in the piece I quoted above in the national and not local media).

PS On the part highlighted above, tell that to the bookies who apparently did buy Donaghy.....

MACH1
05-26-2008, 10:03 PM
In other words how many apologies have the cheats* received from the Head of Officiating because they screwed the pooch on a call? A big fat ZERO.

How many have the Steelers received? At least 4 that I can remember.

Galax Steeler
05-27-2008, 04:44 AM
In other words how many apologies have the cheats* received from the Head of Officiating because they screwed the pooch on a call? A big fat ZERO.

How many have the Steelers received? At least 4 that I can remember.

The polamolu interception in the Indy game is the best one that comes to mind.

The Patriot
05-27-2008, 06:15 AM
Didn't say they were actually paying them--said it wouldn't surprise me, after all we've learned the last few months between Spygate and Donaghy, plus the incredibly bogus officiating they've been the beneficiaries of for years.

On the SB clock thing, the only folks you hear talking about that are Pats fans (some guy actually had a Youtube video on it, but forgot the basic fact that the Fox TV clock was not the actual game clock used, which apparently operated correctly). I asked for a case where it was a controversial call acknowledged to be such beyond the Pats' immediate fanbase (i.e., objective folks also agree you were screwed, kind of like the Tuck Rule or the Colts game or the Bills in the piece I quoted above in the national and not local media).

PS On the part highlighted above, tell that to the bookies who apparently did buy Donaghy.....
Everybody lingers on the Tuck Rule. I was at the game. They ruled it a forward pass because his arm shoved the ball forward. The only reason you think the refs are bias is because you are bias. Sometimes calls go agaist the Pats. Last season there were 150 yards in penalties against the Pats in favor of the Colts including two long pass interference calls. But we still won that game. A game we didn't win was the Broncos playoff game where a pass interference call brought Plummer to the one yard line and put the game out of reach.
The thing that seperates us is I don't linger on these things and whine about a conspiracy of somekind. "The refs were payed off." is the most simplistic excuse in every sport that idiots seem to jump on.

steelwall
05-27-2008, 07:27 AM
Everybody lingers on the Tuck Rule. I was at the game. They ruled it a forward pass because his arm shoved the ball forward. The only reason you think the refs are bias is because you are bias. Sometimes calls go agaist the Pats. Last season there were 150 yards in penalties against the Pats in favor of the Colts including two long pass interference calls. But we still won that game. A game we didn't win was the Broncos playoff game where a pass interference call brought Plummer to the one yard line and put the game out of reach.
The thing that seperates us is I don't linger on these things and whine about a conspiracy of somekind. "The refs were payed off." is the most simplistic excuse in every sport that idiots seem to jump on.


I think I have yet to see you post anything intelligent. You are great at making assumtions or putting words into people mouth.

I have one question for you, and it is a simple yes or no question...no bs... no beating around the bush. If your answer is other than yes or no then you are not answering the question.

Did the Patriots organization cheat???

The Patriot
05-27-2008, 04:20 PM
I think I have yet to see you post anything intelligent. You are great at making assumtions or putting words into people mouth.

I have one question for you, and it is a simple yes or no question...no bs... no beating around the bush. If your answer is other than yes or no then you are not answering the question.

Did the Patriots organization cheat???

Yes, but that's not what we're arguing here. Murbaba believes that Kraft pays off the officials to favor the Pats in games. I don't. :noidea:

So step off.

Dino 6 Rings
05-27-2008, 05:31 PM
I don't think the Refs were paid off, but I do think being a "winning team" gets you consideration by refs, as human beings. Kind of like how Michael Jordan never travelled or always got fouled late in games while driving to the hoop. I think as humans, the Pats got a few calls their way, but don't think refs "fixed" anything.

I'm just happy you admitted, the Patriots did cheat.

Murabma
05-28-2008, 10:06 PM
Everybody lingers on the Tuck Rule. I was at the game. They ruled it a forward pass because his arm shoved the ball forward. The only reason you think the refs are bias is because you are bias. Sometimes calls go agaist the Pats. Last season there were 150 yards in penalties against the Pats in favor of the Colts including two long pass interference calls. But we still won that game. A game we didn't win was the Broncos playoff game where a pass interference call brought Plummer to the one yard line and put the game out of reach.
The thing that seperates us is I don't linger on these things and whine about a conspiracy of somekind. "The refs were payed off." is the most simplistic excuse in every sport that idiots seem to jump on.

On the Colts' game calls, the real question is "were they bad calls"? I don't recall hearing any league-wide outrage at that time, unlike the pro-Pats examples I cited, where either everyone was kabitzing about it (the Tuck Rule, the Colts AFCCG and the Ravens game last year--I could be biased, but I'd also throw in the Bills game in the late '90s when Wade pulled our team off the field in protest and Andre Reed got fined for repeating collusion by the refs in favor of the Pats which he claimed he overheard. Ask a Bills fan what "just give it to them" means sometime) or the national media has picked up on it, to wit the TMQ piece I cited.

If I recall that Bronco game correctly, the "bad call" was in the second quarter as the half was winding down and not, as I requested, at the end of a game.

The reason I'm focusing on the 4th quarter is that if the fix is in, that's when it's most likely to show itself--after all, why bother risking exposure if either (a) the team that's "supposed" to win is winning on its own or (b) the game is out of hand early (to start helping them back into the game would expose you to a very high risk of being caught). Once again, not saying that I believe the Pats have paid off refs, but am saying it honestly wouldn't shock me to find out 20 years from now that they were, and my feeling on that point has changed in the last 12 months for the reasons cited above.....

The Patriot
05-29-2008, 06:43 AM
On the Colts' game calls, the real question is "were they bad calls"? I don't recall hearing any league-wide outrage at that time, unlike the pro-Pats examples I cited, where either everyone was kabitzing about it (the Tuck Rule, the Colts AFCCG and the Ravens game last year--I could be biased, but I'd also throw in the Bills game in the late '90s when Wade pulled our team off the field in protest and Andre Reed got fined for repeating collusion by the refs in favor of the Pats which he claimed he overheard. Ask a Bills fan what "just give it to them" means sometime) or the national media has picked up on it, to wit the TMQ piece I cited.

If I recall that Bronco game correctly, the "bad call" was in the second quarter as the half was winding down and not, as I requested, at the end of a game.

The reason I'm focusing on the 4th quarter is that if the fix is in, that's when it's most likely to show itself--after all, why bother risking exposure if either (a) the team that's "supposed" to win is winning on its own or (b) the game is out of hand early (to start helping them back into the game would expose you to a very high risk of being caught). Once again, not saying that I believe the Pats have paid off refs, but am saying it honestly wouldn't shock me to find out 20 years from now that they were, and my feeling on that point has changed in the last 12 months for the reasons cited above.....

:doh:I'm not gonna argue this in circles with you.

lilyoder6
05-29-2008, 08:22 AM
b/c u are blind.. he is just stating that he wouldn't be shocked if they did pat off the refs.. it's an opion in his eyes. there is nothing to argue about.. but i will say that kraft and the pats are paying hush money to ex-employees right now

NJarhead
05-29-2008, 07:01 PM
b/c u are blind.. he is just stating that he wouldn't be shocked if they did pat off the refs.. it's an opion in his eyes. there is nothing to argue about.. but i will say that kraft and the pats are paying hush money to ex-employees right now

Wouldn't be surprised to find that that was true either.

The Patriot
05-30-2008, 12:00 AM
Wouldn't be surprised to find that that was true either.

You wouldn't be surprised if they found 11 corpses in Belichick's basement.

Preacher
05-30-2008, 04:04 AM
You wouldn't be surprised if they found 11 corpses in Belichick's basement.

Come to think of it...

your right.

Though I WOULD be shocked if he didn't tape it.

lilyoder6
05-30-2008, 11:10 AM
his house is prob filled w/ cameras running all day to tape evrything.

steeler43pa
05-30-2008, 01:45 PM
his house is prob filled w/ cameras running all day to tape evrything.

I agree and also full of all the tapes he has backed up of all the teams he cheated against.