PDA

View Full Version : Is Obama a Stealth Socialist?


GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 08:29 AM
It has been brought to my attention that Obama is not a socialist by definition. So I am curious how close he is to that definition. Is he a 3 out 10? An 8 out of 10? Socialism/communism used to be considered the enemy of the United States. Not so much any more imho. Here is a very long editorial article addressing this question in Investors Busines Daily.

Sorry Preach.......I know you have a short attention span. :chuckle:

Thoughts anyone? Anything in particular you agree or disagree with here?

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=295831088444972

Obama: Stealth Socialist?
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, May 16, 2008 4:30 PM PT

Election 2008: After his blowout win in North Carolina, Barack Obama crowed that it's time "to perfect this nation." What does that mean? He won't say — perhaps for good reason.

As this long primary season drags on, the presumed Democratic nominee for president still won't bring his vision for "change" into focus. He continues to speak in glittering generalities, providing few details.

The reticence, combined with Obama's radical ties, begs the question: Is he hiding an un-American agenda?

We know his longtime mentor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, detests America and its capitalist system, viewing it as unjust, oppressive and enslaving to minorities. He and his fellow travelers think they have in Obama the perfect candidate to remake America into a self-loathing dispenser of apologetic largesse to victim groups at home and Marxist regimes abroad.

Key among these is reverend-turned-professor James Cone, who believes merging Marxism with the Gospel will liberate African-Americans from the supposed economic slavery of "white" capitalism. "Together," he says, "black religion and Marxist philosophy may show us the way to build a completely new society."

Cone is the mentor of Obama's mentor, Wright. Wright adopted Cone's "black liberation theology" as his church's core doctrine. According to Cone, the reverend "is really the one who took it from my books and brought it to the church."

Cone's books are required reading at Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ, where Obama has worshiped for the past 20 years. Trinity instituted the theology and its attendant "black value system" a full decade before Obama formally pledged membership in 1991.

Cone describes black liberation theology as "a faith that does justice," a concept embraced by Obama, who's even argued that "racial justice" cannot be achieved without "economic justice."

According to the theology, divine justice will come when black Jesus (Obama's church believes Christ was black) grants African-Americans the power to permanently destroy "white greed" and white institutions and replace them with their own "black value system."

Cone writes that "black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy" and all its institutions.

Trinity demands its members pledge allegiance instead to "black institutions" and "black leadership," and patronize black-only businesses. Obama himself has said America's institutions are "broken" and need to be "fixed."

Obama has recently tried to distance himself from his crackpot pastor, but he hasn't disavowed any part of the Marxist pseudo faith that embodies everything Wright has preached. He refuses to respond to even written questions about Cone and black liberation theology.

His campaign last year confirmed the doctrine is included in new-member packets provided by the church, and is taught in new-member classes. Both Obama and his wife have attended these classes, so it stands to reason they have been indoctrinated into the radical theology.

And Obama in his first book defended black liberation theology as sensible, and has even called his tutelage under Wright "the best education I ever had."

These days Obama has another term for his Afrocentric theology: the "social gospel." "Rev. Wright's sermons spoke directly to the social gospel," he has said, "and I found that very attractive."

Wright says his sermons are inspired by Cone's books, the contents of which should repulse every patriotic American, white or black. "To be black is to be committed to destroying everything this country loves and adores," Cone writes.

That Marxist commitment to revolution doesn't stop at the water's edge. Obama's church in the 1980s rallied to the cause of communist regimes in America's backyard — from Cuba to Grenada to Nicaragua — while downplaying the threat posed by the Soviet Union.

From his pulpit, Wright whitewashed the brutality of the Sandinista junta and condemned the U.S. for backing the contra freedom fighters.

"Our congregation stood in solidarity with the peasants in El Salvador and Nicaragua while our government was supporting the contras, who were killing peasants in those two countries," Wright recently thundered.

The black liberation theology adopted by his church is "very similar," Wright says, to the "liberation theology" espoused by the Marxist revolutionaries whom the contras fought in Nicaragua.

Wright also condemned as "terrorism" the U.S. invasion of Grenada to oust a budding militant Marxist regime. "We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies," Wright claimed.

Does Obama intend to carry on that tradition of appeasing socialist despots in our hemisphere, starting with Raul Castro and Hugo Chavez? Nicaraguan leader Daniel Ortega will no doubt also find support. The Marxist thug has already endorsed Obama's campaign as "revolutionary."

While Obama has refused to wear a flag pin or stand with respect during the national anthem, he certainly doesn't look or speak the part of an angry anti-American race revolutionist. But appearances may be deceiving. His positions often align with black liberation theology.

"I don't see anything in (Obama's) books or in the (Philadelphia race) speech that contradicts black liberation theology," Cone recently remarked. Obama has just sanded over the "radical edge to it," he said.

Does Obama speak in a code recognizable to fellow travelers but not to most voters, who would be frightened off by a radical agenda? "If you're black, it's hard to say what you truly think and not upset white people," Cone said.

Obama has learned a trick, however, to put them at ease: "smile" and act "well mannered." And don't "seem angry" or make any "sudden moves," as he shared in his first book, "Dreams From My Father."

Also, talk about "hope" without saying what exactly it is you're hoping for. Tellingly, Cone writes a good deal about "hope theology" — which "places the Marxist emphasis on action and change in the Christian context (and) is compatible with black theology's concerns."

Likewise, Obama has suggested he'd use his faith as "an active, palpable agent in the world," and a source of "hope" in overcoming "economic injustice."

"I still believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change," Obama said in a 2006 speech to the Washington-based socialist group, Call to Renewal.

Speaking of black revolution, Cone in his memoir said, "Hope is the expectation of that which is not. It is the belief that the impossible is possible, the 'not yet' is coming in history."

Here's Obama in his 2004 DNC convention speech: "Hope in the face of difficulty, hope in the face of uncertainty, the audacity of hope! In the end, a belief in things not seen, a belief that there are better days ahead."

In his 1969 book, "Black Theology and Black Power," which Trinity uses as a second bible, Cone said: "When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers."

Here's Obama, in his 2006 "Call to Renewal" speech: "The black church understands in an intimate way the biblical call to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, and challenge powers and principalities."

Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation of Islam, says Obama has been "very careful" to avoid the path of failed presidential hopefuls Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who openly militated for black causes. "He has been groomed, wisely so, to be seen as a unifier, rather than one who speaks only for the hurt of black people," Farrakhan said.

When Obama marched on Washington with Farrakhan last decade, he said blacks turn to "black nationalism whenever we have a sense, as we do now, that white Americans couldn't care less about the profound problems African-Americans are facing."

He added they have to be smart about how they protest and go about reforming the system. "Cursing out white folks is not going to get the job done," he said. "We've got some hard nuts-and-bolts organizing and planning to do."

His mild-mannered style has thrown off even some angry black radicals, who want him to speak out more forcefully about the legacy of U.S. racism and economic inequality.

One is Princeton professor Cornel West, a militant black and self-described socialist. Reportedly, West was reluctant to join the refined Obama's presidential campaign until Obama took him aside and explained to him that he had to walk a rhetorical tightrope to reassure whites. West is now solidly on board his campaign as an adviser.

CONTINUED BELOW.......

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Continued.......

West, along with Wright and Cone, has argued for reparations for blacks. Obama seemed to sow the grounds for such a case in his Philadelphia speech.

"So many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow," he said. "We still haven't fixed them."

He added, "That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white."

Trinity's mission statement calls for "economic parity." Such anti-capitalist views are reflected in Obama's rhetoric and proposals.

Rated the most liberal member in the Senate, Obama wants to soak the most productive members of society and subsidize those who are not. He wants to hit small businesses and big corporations alike with major tax hikes — singling out for special rebuke oil producers and "Wall Street predators" who have "tricked" blacks out of their homes. At the same time, he plans to expand the welfare state with massive increases in domestic spending.

"We have more work to do," he told black graduates at Howard University last September. "It's time to seek a new dawn of justice in America. . . . We can right wrongs we see in America."

Cone says he wants to see a "new system" in America "in which people have the distribution of wealth." He adds, "I don't know how quite to do that institutionally."

Enter a Harvard-educated lawyer and Southside Chicago-trained community organizer who has a real shot at institutional power. As Obama promised black graduates at Hampton University last June, "We're going to usher in a new America."

Sounds like a Trojan horse. Will traditional America let it in?

PisnNapalm
06-20-2008, 08:53 AM
The man is just plain unAmerican. I won't vote for him.

I'm still absolutely amazed he's a Presidential candidate. What has he done politically? Not a whole helluva lot.

Some of the apparently little things about him that hint a larger issues. Why won't he wear a flag pin? Is there something offensive about the flag for him? Why won't he follow the code of conduct and put his right hand over his heart during the playing of the National Anthem?

US CODE: Title 36,301. National anthem
§ 301. National anthem

(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

If you think your taxes are high now... Just wait and see what they will be if Obama becomes President. Holy cow....

X-Terminator
06-20-2008, 09:47 AM
And this is just another example of how Obama simply cannot be trusted. As a black American, I am not asking for one single thing from him or anyone else in the government. I got where I am because of my own hard work and determination, and every other black person in this country has the same opportunity. Sure, racism still exist and it will always exist. To deny it would be sticking your head in the sand. But it is nowhere near the point to where there is no opportunity - if you want it, you work for it. The problem is that far too many black people expect things to be handed to them, because they feel it's "owed" to them. Hate to tell them, but the world doesn't owe them a damn thing - my mother drilled that into my head from the day I started kindergarten. It's time to put the past behind us and move on. We are not slaves anymore.

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 09:49 AM
Any paper which makes its $$$ from a majority of business and business-related writings is going to be terrified by the bogeyman of "socialism".

Being a member of a church does not neccesarily mean that he supports or has supported the teachings of that church. I have attended the Catholic church from time to time and I'm getting married in one but I personnaly do not support any of its teachings. (Beautiful services, tho).

As for does not stand for the National Anthem? Propaganda. He does. I've even heard people say he does not say the Pledge of Allegiance. Propaganda.

I see alot of propaganda here to scare white America about this guy. Don't get me wrong, I don;t want to sound like i'm apologizing for this guy. I won't vote for him, I don't beleive in him. I just want to see people getting the facts straight before judging him. Or anyone really.

HometownGal
06-20-2008, 09:58 AM
Being a member of a church does not neccesarily mean that he supports or has supported the teachings of that church.

Really? Is that why Obama consistently referred to the Rev. Wright as his "mentor" before the Rev. was called out for his own blatant racism? :doh:

P.S. Congrats on your upcoming nuptials! :drink:

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 10:01 AM
Sure, racism still exist and it will always exist. To deny it would be sticking your head in the sand. But it is nowhere near the point to where there is no opportunity - if you want it, you work for it.

This is how I feel as well XT.

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 10:03 AM
I see alot of propaganda here to scare white America about this guy. Don't get me wrong, I don;t want to sound like i'm apologizing for this guy. I won't vote for him, I don't beleive in him. I just want to see people getting the facts straight before judging him. Or anyone really.

Perhaps there is some propaganda here. That's why I'd like to see some knowledgeable people weigh in on this. So I can better gauge Obama. Hopefully we will all learn something here.

TackleMeBen
06-20-2008, 10:07 AM
I see alot of propaganda here to scare white America about this guy.
doesnt the media do that to america about everything though?

j-dawg
06-20-2008, 10:14 AM
"Obama's church believes Christ was black"

Oh no, run to the hills!! Sheeshhh...

"Obama the perfect candidate to remake America into a self-loathing dispenser of apologetic largesse to victim groups at home and Marxist regimes abroad."

Really, I'm supposed to keep reading on after those nuggets of wisdom have been dispensed? This article reeks of pharisaical persiflage.

Counselor
06-20-2008, 11:32 AM
I promised myself I wouldn't get too political here on this board (at the risk of making enemies)----but I just have put in my two cents on this article.

First, I have not decided who I am voting for yet. I am still entertaining both candidates. From what I see of voting record and policies of both---neither is perfect, but I don't think either will ruin the country---they just don't have that kind of power as president. (BTW, I don't think Clinton or GW "runied" the country either)

But this article offends me. It is teaming with propaganda and (as someone else pointed out) is a blatant attempt to stir up fear in white americans and conservatives. Obama would be "president" of the US not "dictator". He can't just suddenly turn America from a capitalist country (we're not entirely capitalist now) to a socialist country.

I also get concerned when columnists (or anaymous e-mailers) start spouting off stuff about a church that they've never been to. I'm Catholic, so I know all about what people "think" we believe in. Before Kennedy was elected, everyone was worried he'd turn power over to the Pope (pahleez!) I see a lot of similarities here between that 1960's propaganda and this propaganda. I'm not saying wright's church isn't radical---I don't know "personally" what they preach on Sunday, but to say that Obama is going to be their puppet is no differnent than what they said about Kennedy.

All Christian churches---have some element of favor for socialist policies---taking care of the poor, feeding the hungry, giving shelter to the homeless---so why should the substance of "marxist" philosophy shock us coming from a church?----it doesn't---unless you actually call it "marxist" as is done here.

You can call any american politician a socialist and be at least partially correct. Every single one of them (and probably most of us) believe in some program or policy that could be consided socialist. My brother-in-law (very right wing) called George Bush I a "socialist" and listed a plethora of reasons why to me.

So, my point is, I would like to us all get past the "oh my god Obama is going to ruin the country and turn it over to the . . .Muslims, Socialists, Radical African Americans, etc etc" rhetoric, and vote or not vote for the candidates based on their voting record and what we think they are ACTUALLY going to do.

BTW---I'm an attorney and I worked in the government for a lot of years----I never knew about the advisory statute of putting your hand over your heart for the national anthem---and I don't know many people who knew about that either---so lets cut the guy slack on that one.

revefsreleets
06-20-2008, 11:36 AM
so·cial·ism Audio Help /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 11:44 AM
counselor

All Christian churches---have some element of favor for socialist policies---taking care of the poor, feeding the hungry, giving shelter to the homeless---so why should the substance of "marxist" philosophy shock us coming from a church?----it doesn't---unless you actually call it "marxist" as is done here.

I somewhat agree counselor. I saw a bumper sticker once that said "Jesus was a liberal."........I think where I differ is how the care and compassion is implemented. I have always thought christians preached it more on a personal level, rather than through government imposed programs. So I don't know if that can really be construed as really favoring socialist or marxist philosophy imo. There are plenty of conservatives who are compassionate and directly help the less fortunate. I know a preacher on SF that is a perfect example of this.

Dino 6 Rings
06-20-2008, 12:23 PM
In my opinion there is nothing STEALTH about his Socialist Agenda.

Jeremy
06-20-2008, 12:25 PM
The man is just plain unAmerican. I won't vote for him.

I'm still absolutely amazed he's a Presidential candidate. What has he done politically? Not a whole helluva lot.

Some of the apparently little things about him that hint a larger issues. Why won't he wear a flag pin? Is there something offensive about the flag for him? Why won't he follow the code of conduct and put his right hand over his heart during the playing of the National Anthem?



If you think your taxes are high now... Just wait and see what they will be if Obama becomes President. Holy cow....

So do you go to sporting events and correct everyone around you who wears their hat during the anthem, talks on their phone during the anthem, and cheers before the singer is done singing?

Dino 6 Rings
06-20-2008, 12:30 PM
So do you go to sporting events and correct everyone around you who wears their hat during the anthem, talks on their phone during the anthem, and cheers before the singer is done singing?

Technically, if you witness that, you are supposed to wait for the anthem to end and then address the disrespectfulness you witness.

I was at a minor league baseball game yesterday, and I actually look for that stuff. I find that the kids are usually pretty good about being quite, if they aren't 2 and have no idea what is going on that is, but most are pretty good about it.

I have mentioned to a few people myself that during the anthem hats are to come off, its my place to do it as an American. If they want to be beligerant about it, then I'm all for it, but mostly they say, "Sorry, I wasn't thinking" or something like that. Its about them being proper the next time and maybe even paying it forward at the next sporting event they attend.

PisnNapalm
06-20-2008, 01:10 PM
so·cial·ism Audio Help /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Hmmmmmmmm.....


Here's somethings to chew on...

Nationalization of refineries..?
http://www.foxnews.com/urgent_queue/index.html#a54ef44,2008-06-18

Reporting of transactions to the Govt... They want to know what you buy and where.
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/06/20/1234214.shtml

Sad, dark times are headed our way people. Get your friggin heads out of the sand and speak up.

Jeremy
06-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Sad dark times are already here.

It's called the Patriot Act.

tony hipchest
06-20-2008, 01:36 PM
no. hes a Stealth Obomber.

*ba dum dump*

rimshot!

:chuckle:

stillers4me
06-20-2008, 01:45 PM
no. hes a Stealth Obomber.

*ba dum dump*

rimshot!

:chuckle:

:hatsoff:

MasterOfPuppets
06-20-2008, 01:54 PM
no. hes a Stealth Obomber.

*ba dum dump*

rimshot!

:chuckle: Pshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Atlanta Dan
06-20-2008, 03:40 PM
David Brooks tells the GOP to be afraid, be very afraid:sofunny:

This guy is the whole Chicago package: an idealistic, lakefront liberal fronting a sharp-elbowed machine operator. He’s the only politician of our lifetime who is underestimated because he’s too intelligent. He speaks so calmly and polysyllabically that people fail to appreciate the Machiavellian ambition inside.

But he’s been giving us an education, for anybody who cares to pay attention. Just try to imagine Mister Rogers playing the agent Ari in “Entourage” and it all falls into place. ...

I have to admit, I’m ambivalent watching all this. On the one hand, Obama did sell out the primary cause of his professional life, all for a tiny political advantage. If he’ll sell that out, what won’t he sell out? On the other hand, global affairs ain’t beanbag. If we’re going to have a president who is going to go toe to toe with the likes of Vladimir Putin, maybe it is better that he should have a ruthlessly opportunist Fast Eddie Obama lurking inside.

All I know for sure is that this guy is no liberal goo-goo. Republicans keep calling him naïve. But naïve is the last word I’d use to describe Barack Obama. He’s the most effectively political creature we’ve seen in decades. Even Bill Clinton wasn’t smart enough to succeed in politics by pretending to renounce politics. .

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/opinion/20brooks.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Brooks and I certainly are not on the same page about Obama, but he is correct when he says the GOP better realize it needs to raise the level of its game pronto. Throwing out terms like socialist and "stealth socialist" and "supporter of black liberation theology" may be great & productive fun when you are dealing with cardboard cutouts like Gore and Kerry who let you define their image, but Obama is not going to be that easy to take down.

It reminds me of Dems in the 80s calling Reagan "a Grade B movie actor" and Steeler fans calling Tom Brady "Ass Chin" - if it makes you feel better while your side gets its collective ass handed to it then go for it, but it won't get you a W.

HometownGal
06-20-2008, 03:48 PM
So do you go to sporting events and correct everyone around you who wears their hat during the anthem, talks on their phone during the anthem, and cheers before the singer is done singing?

I can't answer for everyone else, obviously, but yes - as a matter of fact I do. I think it is not only ignorant, but disrespectful to our country, to exhibit those behaviors during the playing of our national anthem. If you can't take all of 2 minutes or so to honor your country - the same country that affords you the freedoms that many other countries don't afford their citizens - shame on you.

Jeremy
06-20-2008, 03:49 PM
Good stuff.

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 05:07 PM
Atlanta Dan

It reminds me of Dems in the 80s calling Reagan "a Grade B movie actor" and Steeler fans calling Tom Brady "Ass Chin"

But Brady is an Ass Chin.

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 06:01 PM
Really? Is that why Obama consistently referred to the Rev. Wright as his "mentor" before the Rev. was called out for his own blatant racism? :doh:

P.S. Congrats on your upcoming nuptials! :drink:

Mentor can take on a lot of meanings... sometimes not much more than a guide or an ear. I was mentored as part of my induction program for teaching. Mostly I bounced ideas and grpied to mine, maybe loked for some guidance. But our ways of doing things are totally different in MANY aspects.

BTW... thanx for the congrats! 11/1/08 is coming!

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 06:06 PM
so·cial·ism Audio Help /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

The community... meaning the people have control over what they produce.

The "communism" we have seen/are seeing in the world is far away from Marx teachings. Human greed damaged it on all fronts. Look at the Soviet example.

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 06:08 PM
But Brady is an Ass Chin.

Yeah... I think we have a nugget we can all agree on there!

HometownGal
06-20-2008, 06:10 PM
Mentor can take on a lot of meanings... sometimes not much more than a guide or an ear. I was mentored as part of my induction program for teaching. Mostly I bounced ideas and grpied to mine, maybe loked for some guidance. But our ways of doing things are totally different in MANY aspects.

BTW... thanx for the congrats! 11/1/08 is coming!

I find it hard to believe that Obama did not adhere to the Rev. Wright's "teachings" considering he and his wife were members of the Trinity United Church for over 20 years. I'm sure the Rev. didn't just begin his racist rants and diatribes over the past few months. If the Obamas didn't follow this man's beliefs, surely they could have found another church in the Chicago area to affiliate themselves with.

Y/W! Just a few short months! :drink:

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 07:03 PM
I find it hard to believe that Obama did not adhere to the Rev. Wright's "teachings" considering he and his wife were members of the Trinity United Church for over 20 years. I'm sure the Rev. didn't just begin his racist rants and diatribes over the past few months. If the Obamas didn't follow this man's beliefs, surely they could have found another church in the Chicago area to affiliate themselves with.

Y/W! Just a few short months! :drink:

I agree. I know countless people who have left their churches because they did not agree with the views of their pastor. Come fall, the media will say he has been thoroughly vetted and to revisit this is only partisan attacks, regardless of the accuracy and relevance.. .

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 07:09 PM
The community... meaning the people have control over what they produce.

The "communism" we have seen/are seeing in the world is far away from Marx teachings. Human greed damaged it on all fronts. Look at the Soviet example.

You're right Davey. Marxism makes sense on paper, but it doesn't factor in human nature. In fact, I believe the liberal democrats feel that marxism works, but it just has never been properly implemented by the right people.....namely them. They want to do the same social engineering but expect a different outcome for some reason.

Jeremy
06-20-2008, 08:44 PM
You know what's funny.....we never hear what church Limbaugh, McCain, or Coulter go to.

MACH1
06-20-2008, 09:14 PM
You know what's funny.....we never hear what church Limbaugh, McCain, or Coulter go to.

You know whats even funnier...Their preachers aren't blubbering racists fools either.

PisnNapalm
06-20-2008, 09:15 PM
You know what's funny.....we never hear what church Limbaugh, McCain, or Coulter go to.

I'm willing to bet their preachers don't say "God Damn America!" from the pulpit.

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 09:16 PM
Obama has recently tried to distance himself from his crackpot pastor, but he hasn't disavowed any part of the Marxist pseudo faith that embodies everything Wright has preached. He refuses to respond to even written questions about Cone and black liberation theology.

Cone is the mentor of Obama's mentor, Wright. Wright adopted Cone's "black liberation theology" as his church's core doctrine. According to Cone, the reverend "is really the one who took it from my books and brought it to the church."

Cone describes black liberation theology as "a faith that does justice," a concept embraced by Obama, who's even argued that "racial justice" cannot be achieved without "economic justice."

According to the theology, divine justice will come when black Jesus (Obama's church believes Christ was black) grants African-Americans the power to permanently destroy "white greed" and white institutions and replace them with their own "black value system."

I wonder why the media isn't reporting.....lol. Scary if true imo. Any thoughts Dan? Davey? Anyone?

steelymcmatt
06-20-2008, 09:34 PM
There is nothing "stealth" about Obama's agenda. He won the nomination through silver-tongued rhetoric. The best analogy I have heard is a used car salesman.....He talks about all the amazing things the car will do for you, but never mentions the price tag. I don't care what color the man's skin is, where he worships, or what pin he does or doesn't wear, I am scared to death of what his policies will do to this country. Between socializing medicine, cow-towing to terrorist states, and penalizing the people who made this country what it is, just because they are successful and wealthy, I am scared to death what this country will look like with him at the helm.

GBMelBlount
06-20-2008, 09:40 PM
There is nothing "stealth" about Obama's agenda. He won the nomination through silver-tongued rhetoric. The best analogy I have heard is a used car salesman.....He talks about all the amazing things the car will do for you, but never mentions the price tag. I don't care what color the man's skin is, where he worships, or what pin he does or doesn't wear, I am scared to death of what his policies will do to this country. Between socializing medicine, cow-towing to terrorist states, and penalizing the people who made this country what it is, just because they are successful and wealthy, I am scared to death what this country will look like with him at the helm.

Well said. I am too. Especially with a Democrat congress.....

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 11:14 PM
I find it hard to believe that Obama did not adhere to the Rev. Wright's "teachings" considering he and his wife were members of the Trinity United Church for over 20 years. I'm sure the Rev. didn't just begin his racist rants and diatribes over the past few months. If the Obamas didn't follow this man's beliefs, surely they could have found another church in the Chicago area to affiliate themselves with.

Y/W! Just a few short months! :drink:

Perhaps he wanted to associate with an exclusively black church for political reaons other than revolutionary politics? Was the church in the district he represented?

millwalldavey
06-20-2008, 11:17 PM
I wonder why the media isn't reporting.....lol. Scary if true imo. Any thoughts Dan? Davey? Anyone?

I beleive in this concept personally... I do not think there can be any type of equality in this country until everyone is paid the same for the same work... black/white, men/women, etc.

As for why the media isn;t touching this... who knows. I don't follow the media because I do not feel they speak for me.

In all honesty... if there was something to this, Fox prolly would have jumped on it by now.

Atlanta Dan
06-21-2008, 08:22 AM
I wonder why the media isn't reporting.....lol. Scary if true imo. Any thoughts Dan? Davey? Anyone?

Just because you haven't read it doesn't mean "the media" isn't reporting it

Do a Google of Obama black liberation theology

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/lisa_miller/2008/03/obamas_church_of_contradiction.html

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html

http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/24/obama-black-liberation-theology-oped-cx_hra_0324cone.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/weekinreview/04powell.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89236116

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/02/obama-and-black-liberation-theology/

These are examples of mainstream media outlets with significant circulations which have published articles on the topic

If you want to read about the topic from an "industry perspective" you can check it out here

http://www.utsnyc.edu/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=967

Since I assume you would not get your financial & investment advice from an editorial in a publication focusing on religion such as The Christian Century, why would you rely primarily upon an editorial in The Financial Times for an accurate assessment of black liberation theology and/or Obama's support, or perhaps lack thereof, of the tenets of black liberation theology?

silver & black
06-21-2008, 08:53 AM
I will not be voting for Obama. Someone already likened him to a used car salesman... this is exactly the way I view him.

Every time I see him speak on TV, he has his slogan in the background, cleary visible..."CHANGE"................... ok, change what?...how?... over what period of time?... what will it cost?... what is your plan for this "change"???

Jeremy
06-21-2008, 10:41 AM
I'm willing to bet their preachers don't say "God Damn America!" from the pulpit.

Well we don't know since they never brag about their churches.

I kind of doubt they go to church.

lamberts-lost-tooth
06-21-2008, 10:52 AM
I beleive in this concept personally... I do not think there can be any type of equality in this country until everyone is paid the same for the same work... black/white, men/women, etc.

.

Liberation theology isnt just about equality...it actually goes much father, tying salvation and ability to get to Heaven with social equality....I dont think you follow that concept do you?

davidgrenier
06-21-2008, 11:07 AM
I will not be voting for Obama. Someone already likened him to a used car salesman... this is exactly the way I view him.

Every time I see him speak on TV, he has his slogan in the background, cleary visible..."CHANGE"................... ok, change what?...how?... over what period of time?... what will it cost?... what is your plan for this "change"???

If you actually want to know the answers to your questions, you can find many of them in his 64-page Blueprint for Change, available from the issues section of his website (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf).

You may not agree with the document, but it is actually, you know, there.

Jeremy
06-21-2008, 11:08 AM
If you actually want to know the answers to your questions, you can find many of them in his 64-page Blueprint for Change, available from the issues section of his website (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf).

You may not agree with the document, but it is actually, you know, there.

Don't ask people to do any research on their own. That's simply un-American.

silver & black
06-21-2008, 11:18 AM
If you actually want to know the answers to your questions, you can find many of them in his 64-page Blueprint for Change, available from the issues section of his website (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf).

You may not agree with the document, but it is actually, you know, there.

Thanks. I'll check that out. :thumbsup:

silver & black
06-21-2008, 11:26 AM
Don't ask people to do any research on their own. That's simply un-American.

Well, aren't you just the sarcastic, condescending, voice of self righteousness?!

Rest assured that I will look into it on my own. Maybe I should have clarified my staement with: "I have never heard him speak of his plans for change"........ just his usual empty rhetoric.

It's a good thing you are so worldly, or no one would take you seriously.

rbryan
06-21-2008, 11:27 AM
The MTV generation doesn't vote. For all the talk of change, the majority of those that back Obama will be too busy watching reality TV or playing video games come November.

I don't like McCain all that much but IMO he's the lesser of two evils. The only thing Obama has accomplished is to galvanize the conservative main stream. For those who are questioning Obamas message... or lack thereof....I wouldn't be too concerned. The majority of those who will actually vote made up thier mind before he ever opened his mouth.

Jeremy
06-21-2008, 12:04 PM
Well, aren't you just the sarcastic, condescending, voice of self righteousness?!

Rest assured that I will look into it on my own. Maybe I should have clarified my staement with: "I have never heard him speak of his plans for change"........ just his usual empty rhetoric.

It's a good thing you are so worldly, or no one would take you seriously.

Pretty much the reaction I expected.

millwalldavey
06-21-2008, 01:21 PM
Liberation theology isnt just about equality...it actually goes much father, tying salvation and ability to get to Heaven with social equality....I dont think you follow that concept do you?

No... I'm a Athiest so those things do not really factor into my thinking. One reason I do not beleive in religion is the inability of others to respect the religions of others. I feel that if society could put these differences aside, a lot of things can be possible.

Hawk Believer
06-21-2008, 01:34 PM
These cartoons seemed appropo for the discussion.

I thought the allusion to what Bush and Rove did to McCain in South Carolina back in 2000 was pretty clever in the following cartoon.

http://blatherwatch.blogs.com/talk_radio/images/2008/06/19/smeartoon1.jpg

This one, I will openly admit, could easily be modified to make the exact same statement against a significant number of people on the Left. It sure seems to capture the distored way much of America analyzes politics these days.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20080619/cartoon20080619.gif

Jeremy
06-21-2008, 02:42 PM
The Bush White House, and those who have blindly followed them, have done significant damage to real Republicans.

silver & black
06-21-2008, 09:27 PM
Pretty much the reaction I expected.

Good... then you aren't disappointed.

GBMelBlount
06-21-2008, 09:36 PM
One reason I do not beleive in religion is the inability of others to respect the religions of others.

So because people are flawed, God doesn't exist.....:thumbsup: Fortunately Obama will create a utopia on earth!

millwalldavey
06-21-2008, 09:46 PM
So because people are flawed, God doesn't exist.....:thumbsup: Fortunately Obama will create a utopia on earth!

No... god does not exist because I PERSONALLY see no proof of a benevolent being in control of all things here. Thats how I feel. I do not disrespect anyone for believing in religion.

The people can create a better world on our own if we could just learn to respect each other and stay the hell out of one anothers affairs.

stlrtruck
06-21-2008, 10:02 PM
No... god does not exist because I PERSONALLY see no proof of a benevolent being in control of all things here. Thats how I feel. I do not disrespect anyone for believing in religion.

The people can create a better world on our own if we could just learn to respect each other and stay the hell out of one anothers affairs.

That would be because God offers Free Choice. He is not going to "control" all things. He allows us to make choices then we pay the consequences or reap the rewards of those choices.

I read an email that went something like this:

A man was in the barbershop getting a hair cut when they discussion turned to religion. The barber stated he didn't believe that God existed, because how could God allow all the bad things to happen - death, abortion, war, homeless, etc.. The man had nothing to add so he was quiet. As the man left the barbershop he saw a homeless man with long strangly hair - he walked back into the barbershop and stated, "I don't believe in barbers!" The barber looked at him and said, "I'm right here. And I just cut your hair!" The man replied, "I don't believe you exist because if you did then people would look like that homeless man over there." The barber replied, "That's because those people don't come to me!" In which the man replied, "It's just the same, people don't come to God!"

And while I respect other people and their views and I don't push Christ on them like others I've seen, it is in my belief in Jesus Christ that without Him, people will go to hell (even ones that I love) regardless of how well they treat others.

And occassionally when I get a chance I tell people about Christ. But in all honestly, it's not about telling people about Christ, it's about being Christ to them.

millwalldavey
06-21-2008, 10:09 PM
That would be because God offers Free Choice. He is not going to "control" all things. He allows us to make choices then we pay the consequences or reap the rewards of those choices.

I read an email that went something like this:

A man was in the barbershop getting a hair cut when they discussion turned to religion. The barber stated he didn't believe that God existed, because how could God allow all the bad things to happen - death, abortion, war, homeless, etc.. The man had nothing to add so he was quiet. As the man left the barbershop he saw a homeless man with long strangly hair - he walked back into the barbershop and stated, "I don't believe in barbers!" The barber looked at him and said, "I'm right here. And I just cut your hair!" The man replied, "I don't believe you exist because if you did then people would look like that homeless man over there." The barber replied, "That's because those people don't come to me!" In which the man replied, "It's just the same, people don't come to God!"

And while I respect other people and their views and I don't push Christ on them like others I've seen, it is in my belief in Jesus Christ that without Him, people will go to hell (even ones that I love) regardless of how well they treat others.

And occassionally when I get a chance I tell people about Christ. But in all honestly, it's not about telling people about Christ, it's about being Christ to them.

And that is a beautiful thing. I'm happy you have that. Many people seem to treat this as a kneejerk thing but in honesty I have felt this was since I'm 11 or 12 years old. I feel there are too many differing religions in this world for there to be one correct one and to deny anothers faith is not being true to your own. I respect and honor them all. I hope people do not choose to dishonor and dismiss my feelings abot the matter.

GBMelBlount
06-21-2008, 10:56 PM
I feel there are too many differing religions in this world for there to be one correct one and to deny anothers faith is not being true to your own

huh? Actually "huh?" to the whole thing.

stlrtruck
06-22-2008, 08:43 AM
And that is a beautiful thing. I'm happy you have that. Many people seem to treat this as a kneejerk thing but in honesty I have felt this was since I'm 11 or 12 years old. I feel there are too many differing religions in this world for there to be one correct one and to deny anothers faith is not being true to your own. I respect and honor them all. I hope people do not choose to dishonor and dismiss my feelings abot the matter.

As wrong as I believe you to be, I would never dismiss your feelings. I had this talk the other day with my neighbor and his wife. He's Catholic and she's a Universalist. I love them both, great people and basically the conversation was ended with this - No man, woman, or child on this earth knows when their time is up or when Christ is going to return - let alone who is going to get into heaven. And I've got enough skeletons in my closet, let alone my own sins, not to judge the man next to me.

But I do have one question about those "other" religious leaders - Did any of them die on a cross for all man's sins and rise 3 days later?

stlrtruck
06-22-2008, 08:55 AM
So do you go to sporting events and correct everyone around you who wears their hat during the anthem, talks on their phone during the anthem, and cheers before the singer is done singing?

As a matter of I do yell at people to remove their hats during the national anthem, move during the song, or talk on the phone during it. Usually I sing along with the anthem singer and at times I pray for those men/women who have died for this country and for those who serve.

millwalldavey
06-22-2008, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=stlrtruck;407538]As wrong as I believe you to be, I would never dismiss your feelings.
[QUOTE]

Thank you! You are precisely the type of person I would not want to argue about religion with because I would not want to say anything to disrespect you and your beliefs. :tt02::cooldude:

millwalldavey
06-22-2008, 10:03 AM
huh? Actually "huh?" to the whole thing.

To clarify... I feel that anyone who disrespects another religion is disrespectful to their own religion. Religions are designed to be beautiful, peaceful and spiritual things, not something to puff ones chest out about and say" mine is better than yours"

Unlike the Steelers. Where ours is truly better than everyone elses!

stlrtruck
06-22-2008, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=stlrtruck;407538]As wrong as I believe you to be, I would never dismiss your feelings.
[QUOTE]

Thank you! You are precisely the type of person I would not want to argue about religion with because I would not want to say anything to disrespect you and your beliefs. :tt02::cooldude:

You see but there is a difference between arguing and discussing. I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you about it, even if it meant getting a little heated at times. However it comes down to two things.

1) Can a person be quiet long enough to let the other person talk?
2) Can a person stop thinking about what you're going to say next in order to hear what the other person is saying?

If we were in closer proximity to each other, I'm sure a one on one discussion could prove be educational for the both of us. Especially if respect can be delivered within the conversation.

I've never been offended by talking to people about Christ. You see it's not my job to make sure they believe in Him, just my job to put it out there. Therefore, if someone wants to acknowledge or not His position, then that's on them and it doesn't affect my relationship that I have with Christ. And it doesn't mean I need to kill them because they don't agree.

Preacher
06-22-2008, 05:39 PM
StlrTruck...

You're absolutely correct.

What people can't seem to realize is that while I believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven, I understand others have their belief, and am actually upset when they don't share those beliefs with me.

If a person, say, A Muslim, believes that they have the right way to God, and doesn't tell me about it, then he or she doesn't love me enough to help me in my relationship with God according to their belief.

Some of my best discussions about faith have been with those who strongly believe in their faith.

I respect those who have no faith, or don't choose one. The only thing I don't respect are those who arrogantly look down on faith, or think that because they have a smattering of history or science, they can outwit any believer.

millwalldavey
06-22-2008, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=millwalldavey;407546][QUOTE=stlrtruck;407538]As wrong as I believe you to be, I would never dismiss your feelings.


You see but there is a difference between arguing and discussing. I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you about it, even if it meant getting a little heated at times. However it comes down to two things.

1) Can a person be quiet long enough to let the other person talk?
2) Can a person stop thinking about what you're going to say next in order to hear what the other person is saying?

If we were in closer proximity to each other, I'm sure a one on one discussion could prove be educational for the both of us. Especially if respect can be delivered within the conversation.

I've never been offended by talking to people about Christ. You see it's not my job to make sure they believe in Him, just my job to put it out there. Therefore, if someone wants to acknowledge or not His position, then that's on them and it doesn't affect my relationship that I have with Christ. And it doesn't mean I need to kill them because they don't agree.

Well put. It's very difficult these days to sit down and discuss these things... the internet can be quite impersonal for discussions.

A beneficial discussion does involve respect for each other. As a communications student, I have always beleived that listening is more important to communication than talking! All the knowledge in the world shouldn't change your opinions... while I am a bit learned I would never seek to do so.

I don't beleive He is there... you do. We are still brothers in my eyes!

stlrtruck
06-23-2008, 12:23 PM
[QUOTE=stlrtruck;407589][QUOTE=millwalldavey;407546]
We are still brothers in my eyes!

Exactly. :drink: