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SteelersMongol
07-08-2008, 04:37 AM
When David Jeselsohn, a Swiss-Israeli collector, bought this ancient tablet from a Jordanian antiquities dealer, he was unaware of its significance

A 3-ft.-high tablet romantically dubbed "Gabriel's Revelation" could challenge the uniqueness of the idea of the Christian Resurrection. The tablet appears to date authentically to the years just before the birth of Jesus and yet at least according to one Israeli scholar it announces the raising of a messiah after three days in the grave. If true, this could mean that Jesus' followers had access to a well-established paradigm when they decreed that Christ himself rose on the third day and it might even hint that they they could have applied it in their grief after their master was crucified. However, such a contentious reading of the 87-line tablet depends on creative interpretation of a smudged passage, making it the latest entry in the woulda/coulda/shoulda category of possible New Testament artifacts; they are useful to prove less-spectacular points and to stir discussion on the big ones, but probably not to settle them nor shake anyone's faith.

The ink-on-stone document, which is owned by a Swiss-Israeli antiques collector and reportedly came to light about a decade ago, has been dated by manuscript and chemical experts to a period just before Jesus' birth. Some scholars think it may originally have been part of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a trove of religious texts found in caves on the West Bank that were possibly associated with John the Baptist. The tablet is written in the form of an end-of-the-world prediction in the voice of the angel Gabriel; one line, for instance, predicts that "in three days you will know evil will be defeated by justice."

Such "apocalypses," often featuring a triumphant military figure called a messiah (literally, anointed one), were not uncommon in the religious and politically tumultuous Jewish world of 1st century B.C. Palestine. But what may make the Gabriel tablet unique is its 80th line, which begins with the words "In three days" and includes some form of the verb "to live." Israel Knohl, an expert in Talmudic and biblical language at Jerusalem's Hebrew University who was not involved in the first research on the artifact, claims that it refers to a historic 1st-century Jewish rebel named Simon who was killed by the Romans in 4 B.C., and should read "In three days, you shall live. I Gabriel command you." If so, Jesus-era Judaism had begun to explore the idea of a three-day resurrection before Jesus was born.

This, in turn, undermines one of the strongest literary arguments employed by Christians over centuries to support the historicity of the Resurrection (in which they believe on faith): the specificity and novelty of the idea that the Messiah would die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. Who could make such stuff up? But, as Knohl told TIME, maybe the Christians had a model to work from. The idea of a "dying and rising messiah appears in some Jewish texts, but until now, everyone thought that was the impact of Christianity on Judaism," he says. "But for the first time, we have proof that it was the other way around. The concept was there before Jesus." If so, he goes on, "this should shake our basic view of Christianity. ... What happens in the New Testament [could have been] adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story."

Not so fast, say some Christian academics...

to continue http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1820685,00.html?cnn=yes

Thought it was interesting. Didn't mean to offend anyone's belief, if I did.

revefsreleets
07-08-2008, 10:35 AM
You have no idea the can of worms you just opened.

Good luck, my firend! Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is headed your way...

Dino 6 Rings
07-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Religion and Politics, what great bed fellows.

Godfather
07-08-2008, 11:09 AM
You have no idea the can of worms you just opened.

Good luck, my firend! Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is headed your way...

Much ado about nothing. The idea of the Messiah dying and being resurrected existed long before Jesus, which is why the Roman authorities stationed soldiers at Christ's tomb and openly expressed concerns that His followers would steal the body and claim He rose from the dead.

There were also false messiahs in pagan religions that had contact with the Jews and borrowed from the Messianic prophecies.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-08-2008, 11:33 AM
In 1822 Clement Clarke Moore wrote a poem............about some guy who flys around in a sled pulled by a bunch of trophy deer. To this day millions of children await the visit of this mystery man and his fabled sack of presents!

The resurrection is not unlike that poem. Millions of people await the return of this carpenter turned messiah.

One story is told to children to get them to behave or santa won't come.
The other is told to adults to get them to behave or jesus won't save you from hell.

Question is........ why do we need such stories in order to live a moral life?

revefsreleets
07-08-2008, 12:21 PM
MY favorite Bible fairy tale is Noah's Ark. Following is a complete debunking...it's long but pretty thorough...

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

Here's a sample:
As an idea of how many insects Noah would have had to take on the ark, here is a list of insect orders with the number of species in each (source - Natural History Museum):


COLLEMBOLA: 6000 eg. springtails
THYSANURA: 370 e.g.. silverfish
EPHEMEROPTERA: 2100 eg. mayflies
ODONATA: 5500 eg. dragonflies
PLECOPTERA: 2000 eg. stoneflies
BLATTODEA: 3700 eg. profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfilterroaches
ISOPTERA: 2300 eg. termites
MANTODEA: 1800 eg. mantids
DERMAPTERA: 1800 eg. earwigs
ORTHOPTERA: 20500 eg. grasshoppers
PHASMATODEA: 2500 eg. stick insects
PSCOPTERA: 3200 eg. bark lice
PHTHIRAPTERA: 3000 eg. biting lice
HEMIPTERA: 82000 eg. aphids
THYSANOPTERA: 5000 eg. thrips
MEGALOPTERA: 250 eg. alderflies
RAPHIDIOPTERA: 175 eg. snakeflies
NEUROPTERA: 5000 eg. ant-lions
COLEOPTERA: 400000 eg. beetles
MECOPTERA: 400 eg. scorpion flies
SIPHONAPTERA: 2400 eg. fleas
DIPTERA: 120000 eg. fruit-flies
TRICHOPTERA: 10000 eg. caddisflies
LEPIDOPTERA: 150000 eg. butterflies
HYMENOPTERA: 130000 eg. ants, bees

giving a grand total of approx. 965420 different species of insect, about a million (and these are just the species known to western science. There could be another several million unknown species). Given a male and female, make that at least two million insects aboard the ark, ranging in size from a millimetre, up to six inches in size, many having extremely specialised requirements for life, (not to mention quite an appetite for eating other insects...).
Creationists object to the idea of "species" aboard the Ark, preferring to use "kind" instead. Thus, instead of having nearly a million beetles running around it (beetles not being known for sitting patiently in their pens), Noah simply had a male and female of one "kind" of beetle from which all the others known today have "diversified" (or "evolved", but let's not mention that word). Now, let's say the Flood happened 4,000 years ago, and there are 400,000 known species of beetle. A quick sum tells us that, on average, 100 new species of beetle have evolved (or been Created) every year from those two original parents. That's two new species of beetle a week! In order to explain the current diversity of life, creationists need to conjure up a form of evolution that proceeds at a rate which would make any biologist fall off her stool in astonishment!

stlrtruck
07-08-2008, 12:52 PM
Question is........ why do we need such stories in order to live a moral life?

First, we shouldn't need stories to live a moral life. Our government makes laws and sets boundaries (which continue to be re-established) in order to make determinations on what is socially and morally acceptable. Therefore, one truly does not need to hear or believe the "stories" of Jesus Christ in order to live a good life.

And while I respect your option to not believe, I would be remiss of my duties to point out that while Jesus' teachings and the Bible do give us specifics instructions on how to live a life accordingly it is also Jesus' death on the cross and a belief that He died for our sins and rose three days later so that we may get to heaven and avoid the pit of hell that becomes a focal point. It's faith.

And we all have faith - it is just a matter of where it's directed. And while I have not been miraculously healed or seen any definitive signs I know in my knower that Jesus Christ is real and is more than a story. I've heard people close to me describe healings, and blessings that are more than some coincidence.

So IMHO, it comes down to the following:
1) Are you going to live a moral life and honor the government's laws and self or
2) Are you going to live a life honoring to God?

I know the standards are not the same!

"But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:15

tony hipchest
07-08-2008, 01:12 PM
MY favorite Bible fairy tale is Noah's Ark. Following is a complete debunking...it's long but pretty thorough...

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

Here's a sample:
As an idea of how many insects Noah would have had to take on the ark, here is a list of insect orders with the number of species in each (source - Natural History Museum):


i dont think noah collected bugs, just like i dont believe he built 2 huge tanks to save the great white shark, i mean whats the point of saving fish from a flood? :noidea:

the "fairy tale" must be put into historical context. at the time it was written the world was perceived to be flat and to not extend much further than the visible horizon. 4000 years ago, people in the mid east had no idea about the species in the rain forest or penguins.

Counselor
07-08-2008, 01:34 PM
i dont think noah collected bugs, just like i dont believe he built 2 huge tanks to save the great white shark, i mean whats the point of saving fish from a flood? :noidea:

the "fairy tale" must be put into historical context. at the time it was written the world was perceived to be flat and to not extend much further than the visible horizon. 4000 years ago, people in the mid east had no idea about the species in the rain forest or penguins.

Exactly.

It is quite possible to rationally believe that Noah was a historical figure, built a big boat, had neighbors think he was crazy, load the boat with barnyard/domestic animals and maybe a few others he could gather, there was a big flood (not necessarily the entire earthas we know it) and he, his family, and the animals lived.

Mosca
07-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Simple. People do what works for them. Some people find religion, some people lose religion, and life goes on.

stlrtruck
07-08-2008, 02:30 PM
There's a difference between religion and relationship. The Jesus Christ that I read about and know is about relationship.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Much ado about nothing. The idea of the Messiah dying and being resurrected existed long before Jesus, which is why the Roman authorities stationed soldiers at Christ's tomb and openly expressed concerns that His followers would steal the body and claim He rose from the dead.

There were also false messiahs in pagan religions that had contact with the Jews and borrowed from the Messianic prophecies.

Roman soldiers were placed at the tomb of Christ ...not because of the Roman leaders concerns of his followers stealing the body, but due to the fears of the Jewish leaders ...

The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead

....who had heard Jesus proclaim that he would return after three days...

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

and would have also been familier with the old testement prophesy of Hosea 6:1-2.

(You would have to ask Preacher...but I am relatively sure that the Old Testemant prophesies of the Messiah raising after 3 days pre-date this new "discovery"...so how do they know that it didnt steal from the Old Testement?)

Preacher
07-08-2008, 05:19 PM
I have a question about the ink on stone.

If it was on stone, it would have been inscribed. Not ink. If it was part of the dead sea scrolls, it would have been parchment.

SOmething about this doesn't pass the smell test.

Atlanta Dan
07-08-2008, 06:09 PM
I have a question about the ink on stone.

If it was on stone, it would have been inscribed. Not ink. If it was part of the dead sea scrolls, it would have been parchment.

SOmething about this doesn't pass the smell test.

The tip-off may be if it is in Courier New type

Godfather
07-08-2008, 08:59 PM
I have a question about the ink on stone.

If it was on stone, it would have been inscribed. Not ink. If it was part of the dead sea scrolls, it would have been parchment.

SOmething about this doesn't pass the smell test.

Kind of like that fake tomb for James--"James son of Joseph, Apostle, Brother of the Lord" when the apostle James was not related to Jesus.

millwalldavey
07-08-2008, 09:02 PM
Religion and Politics, what great bed fellows.

Thats why i beleive in neither.

Preacher
07-09-2008, 03:14 AM
The tip-off may be if it is in Courier New type

:chuckle: Baskerville Old Face might give it credence though!!

Kind of like that fake tomb for James--"James son of Joseph, Apostle, Brother of the Lord" when the apostle James was not related to Jesus.


Yeah.

If this was found in a dig... it would hit the scholarly journals in an instant... and there would be COPIOUS amounts of work written on it.