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CantStop85
07-09-2008, 01:34 AM
No surprises when ranking the top QBs in the NFL
By Matt Williamson
Scouts Inc.

The Patriots with Tom Brady and the Colts with Peyton Manning are the obvious choices at No. 1 and No. 2, respectively. Should the Cowboys with Tony Romo be in the top five? Do the Giants with Eli Manning, who was the Super Bowl MVP, deserve to be in the top 10? The answers may surprise you.

1. New England Patriots
There are only two teams in the running for this honor, and we gave Brady the slight nod over Manning simply because Brady has more Super Bowl rings and surpassed Manning's touchdown record this past season. Both quarterbacks just keep getting better and better as they one-up each other. Brady put together an unheard of 50-to-8 touchdown-to-interception ratio last season while leading his team to a perfect regular-season record. His production did fall off over the last six games of the regular season, but overall, Brady was simply terrific once again. He is a tremendous competitor without a conscience.

Matt Cassel is Brady's backup, but in a somewhat shocking move, the Patriots used the 94th overall selection in the 2008 draft on Kevin O'Connell from San Diego State, which isn't exactly known as a football factory. The Patriots never do anything on a whim, so this selection warrants watching over the next several years. Cassel had better watch his back.


2. Indianapolis Colts
We all are extremely fortunate to be able to watch both Brady and Manning in the prime of their illustrious careers. Few have done it as well, and it isn't far fetched to think these two future Hall of Famers will go down as the two best players to ever play the most important position on the football field. It is almost criminal to be forced to choose between these two, and finding weaknesses in either Brady's or Manning's overall game is an extremely difficult, cumbersome chore. As great as Brady is, no player in the league means more to his team than Manning.

Jim Sorgi is Manning's backup and has been since 2004. He knows the system and holds a clipboard as well as anyone in recent memory, but if Manning were, for whatever reason, to miss the season, Indianapolis would be lucky to win five games. Fortunately and amazingly, Manning has started every game for this franchise in the past 10 years and has thrown 168 touchdowns over the past five, never dipping below 26 per season since joining the league. Manning is a machine.


3. Pittsburgh Steelers
It is becoming clear that Ben Roethlisberger is the next-best quarterback. Physically, he is the prototype for the position. He gets the most out of his natural gifts with his uncanny ability to buy extra time in the pocket and use his powerful right arm to drive the ball downfield when a play breaks down. He is an excellent deep thrower and is difficult to get on the ground; although he takes too many sacks in an effort to make the big play, he is better than anyone once the script goes out the window. He forces secondaries to cover much longer than they are accustomed to.

As a rookie, he led the Steelers to a 15-1 record. In his second year, he led the Steelers to a win in the Super Bowl. After a motorcycle accident, 2006 was a bit of a wash, but he rebounded in a huge way in 2007 and usually was the best player on the field. Few quarterbacks have accomplished so much so quickly. Backup Charlie Batch cannot be overlooked in this conversation, because he has proved he can lead the Steelers to victory when Roethlisberger is sidelined -- although the Steelers become much more conservative with Batch in the game. With Roethlisberger's aggressive play and the punishment he takes, having a trusted backup is paramount for Pittsburgh.


4. New Orleans Saints
While the Saints' group of weapons and coach Sean Payton get a lot of credit for New Orleans' high-powered offense, QB Drew Brees makes this group look better than it is. For some reason, he usually isn't mentioned among the top signal-callers in the league after Brady and Manning, but that is a massive mistake. He is cerebral and tough and has pinpoint accuracy. Brees doesn't wow you from a physical standpoint, but he understands the game, is in the prime of his career and gets the ball out of his hands on time to a variety of options. He takes very few sacks.

Brees struggled mightily during the first four games of this past season but rebounded in a big way, throwing 27 touchdowns in the last 12 games. Only Brady threw for more yardage than the pass-happy Brees. Behind him, New Orleans has a pair of lefties in veteran Mark Brunell and youngster Tyler Palko. Both are heady and tough but lack big arms, which isn't a major drawback in this offense. Still, Brees is far and away the most indispensable player on New Orleans' roster and a top signal-caller in this league.


5. Cincinnati Bengals
Few players in the league can spin the football like Carson Palmer. He is an elite talent who throws the football as well as any quarterback in recent memory. He has great size and a tremendous arm and is deadly accurate. He is tough and competitive and never has missed a start. While his surrounding circumstances have not been ideal, he also must do a better job of playing within himself and not putting the burden of the entire team on his shoulders. He has dealt with a somewhat dysfunctional situation in Cincinnati, including poor route running, suspect pass protection and lack of a rushing attack, all of which has had a negative effect on the team. Since he has forced throws when he has felt he must do it all himself, he has turned over the ball with too much regularity the past two seasons. Palmer can be as good as anyone on this list but could drop if he doesn't get his team on track.

The addition of TE Ben Utecht could pay heavy dividends because he is capable of being a force over the middle and near the end zone. Defenses were able to focus their attention on the perimeter last year, but this year should be different. Expect a big rebound season from Palmer and for him to exceed 4,000 yards through the air for the third straight year -- unless the wheels fall off this entire organization.

Ryan Fitzpatrick is the top backup. He showed flashes while in St. Louis, but he has yet to start a game in a Bengals uniform and clearly would be a massive downgrade from Palmer. Fitzpatrick is smart and could be an adequate caretaker quarterback at best, but the Bengals do not have the rushing attack to make that work and are reliant on Palmer's right arm.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 01:35 AM
6. Dallas Cowboys
Romo threw for 4,211 yards this past season and completed 36 touchdown passes. The numbers he put together went more unnoticed than they should have because of what Brady was doing in New England, but Romo lit up the scoreboard. His winning percentage as a starting quarterback is stunning. So why aren't the Cowboys' quarterbacks ranked higher? First off, Romo is surrounded by a lot of talent and has yet to win a playoff game in his two seasons behind center. All of that blame cannot be thrust on Romo alone, but he does need to prove he can elevate the play of his team in crucial situations to be ranked among the top players at this position.

Also, we would like to see a bigger overall body of work. He sees the field very well, is light on his feet in avoiding pressure and doesn't hesitate to push the ball deep downfield. He threw 19 interceptions last year, but eight of those picks came in two games, which shows he still is hit or miss. His pension for fading down the stretch certainly is worrisome, and he faces a brutal schedule in 2008. While Romo is just getting started, backup Brad Johnson's best days are long behind him, and a young signal-caller needs to be groomed.


7. Philadelphia Eagles
Coming off an ACL injury, Donovan McNabb was a shell of himself during the first half of the 2007 season. He was immobile and unable to create plays with his feet or avoid the rush, but he also didn't stride into his throws in the pocket like he had in the past. Clearly, he was not confident in his rebuilt knee. The second half of the season was a different story, though, as his knee healed and he became more trusting of it. Even with his early season struggles, McNabb threw only seven interceptions in Andy Reid's pass-happy attack. Few value the football as well.

Expect McNabb to continue his fine play in 2008, as the Eagles will face an easier schedule and he should have plenty of familiar weapons to distribute the ball to. TE L.J. Smith's return should help in the red zone, which was a major problem area last year. His best running days are behind him, but he has a great understanding of this offense and is an intelligent distributor of the football.

Bolstering the overall rank of the Eagles' quarterbacks is Kevin Kolb, who is waiting for his turn behind McNabb. While it is unclear when Kolb will get his shot at live action, he is a fine prospect who should flourish in this offense. A.J. Feeley also is one of the best No. 3 quarterbacks in the league today. Expect McNabb to perform like a Pro Bowler this upcoming year, but his injury history is concerning, so this quarterback depth is essential.


8. Jacksonville Jaguars
Jack Del Rio made an extremely bold move right before the 2007 season by releasing Byron Leftwich and inserting David Garrard as his starting quarterback -- and wow, did it ever pay off. While he benefits from an excellent ground attack, Garrard has become an ultra-efficient signal-caller who keeps plays alive with his legs while combining good decision-making and accuracy. He missed time with a high ankle sprain but posted respectable numbers as a first-year starter who threw only three interceptions on the season. In fact, based on the 11 full games in which he played, Garrard was on pace to throw for more than 3,500 yards while spreading the ball to many options.

Few realized just how good Garrard was a year ago, and he now is far more than just a caretaker. He could improve on his game-management skills, but remember, he is just a one-year starter and does show good overall poise and intelligence despite the lack of starting experience. He also is clearly the leader of this team and has all the faith of his teammates, his coaches and the front office. A full offseason as the starter, along with a lucrative new contract, will do Garrard a world of good. With new receivers on board, expect the Jaguars to go deep more this season. Cleo Lemon is the backup and a slightly above-average one at that. Jacksonville is well equipped at the position.


9. Seattle Seahawks
This past season, the Seahawks lacked a running game they could rely on, and Mike Holmgren chose to put the offense squarely on Matt Hasselbeck's shoulders. He didn't disappoint, throwing for 3,966 yards while being intercepted only 12 times. Hasselbeck is an excellent decision-maker and can be aggressive without sacrificing accuracy. His toughness often goes overlooked, and he regularly plays with pain. However -- and this doesn't distract from Hasselbeck's ranking on this list -- Seattle's weaponry isn't anywhere near what it was a year ago. And it is questionable whether the running game has been much improved.

Even more stress to perform could be placed on Hasselbeck in 2008, and he will have to find soft spots in the defense and spread the ball around more adeptly than in the past. Seneca Wallace and Charlie Frye are the backups. Wallace is a superb athlete who could see more time at wideout this season if Frye proves capable. Trading for Frye could end up being a shrewd move, because his lack of arm strength would not be a major liability in this offense, and the change of scenery surely will do Frye good.


10. Cleveland Browns
This is a quarterback-friendly offense, but you have to respect what Derek Anderson accomplished in his first year as a starter. However, Brady Quinn still is waiting in the wings, and that makes ranking Cleveland's quarterback tandem difficult.

In Anderson, the Browns have a tall, strong-armed passer who performed very well early in the season by getting the ball out quickly and making sound decisions. But, as the season went along, the true Anderson began to appear, as he rushed his throws and made too many poor choices with the football. Behind an elite offensive line, with a solid running game and outstanding options to throw the ball to, forcing the issue and turning the ball over simply will not do. He is fortunate to throw to such large receivers with fantastic catching radiuses. Overall, he runs too hot and cold, and Browns fans got a taste of both last year. Anderson was at his best when little was expected of him. Plus, he didn't handle the playoff run or poor weather well, which aren't good traits in Cleveland.

Of course, Quinn remains a relative unknown, but he has good mental makeup, poise, strength and athletic ability. If Anderson had played better late in the year, Cleveland would have been in the playoffs. In any case, this is a good situation to have at the most important position on the field, and many teams would do cartwheels to get either Anderson or Quinn right now. Either quarterback might end up posting top numbers in this offense, and both quarterbacks still are very young.

Scouts Inc. watches games, breaks down film and studies football from all angles for ESPN.com.

The Duke
07-09-2008, 01:42 AM
isn't it great to think our very own Ben could be considered the best QB in the league in a few years.

I usually don't pay much attention to this lists, but it's nice to see ben getting his recognition around the league. he's earned it

Aussie_steeler
07-09-2008, 03:03 AM
Thanks for the read CS85

Thought Palmer might sneek in front of Brees IMO.

Good to see Big Ben climbing up the rankings

Galax Steeler
07-09-2008, 05:02 AM
Its about time he got some respect and climbing up the rankings.

Steelman16
07-09-2008, 07:04 AM
Nice read on the backups - that's something you don't hear about every day.

Nice to see Ben #3 too, he'll be number 1 before the season is over.


On another note, Tony Romo will never be a "top QB" for me until he actually proves he can win a playoff game. Until then, he'll be looking in from the outside. He doesn't belong in this group yet.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-09-2008, 08:22 AM
isn't it great to think our very own Ben could be considered the best QB in the league in a few years.

I usually don't pay much attention to this lists, but it's nice to see ben getting his recognition around the league. he's earned it

Agreed...I think most of us remember those years that we sat around thinking.."MAN!!..if we only had a franchise QB!!"

......This is a special time to be a Steelers fan!

revefsreleets
07-09-2008, 09:31 AM
David Garrard? Derek Anderson? Too early to tell with the former, and Anderson is a "one and done" career back-up who had one glory year because of a tremendous OL and nobody having any scouting material on him. Last December his QB rating was lower than Kordell Stewart's "Kordoza line".

Mosca
07-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Big falloff after #6, don't you think? I'd have included McNabb and said "after #7" a couple years ago, but with his current injury situation....

As good as I think the Jags are, QB and Garrard aren't the reason.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 11:14 AM
Thanks for the read CS85

Thought Palmer might sneek in front of Brees IMO.

Good to see Big Ben climbing up the rankings

Eh, I think the Saints got the edge because of their backup QB's.

Mark Brunell > Ryan Fitzpatrick
Tyler Palko > Jordan Palmer

But, yeah after 5 or 6 there's a real big drop-off.

lilyoder6
07-09-2008, 12:13 PM
there is a big drop-off when u ta;k about the top 10.. i guess thats y the top 5/6 teams mostly always make it to the playoffs when they have there qb's.. (except 4 NO which are 1-1 w/ brees).

steelymcmatt
07-09-2008, 12:22 PM
What's great about our current situation is that we've got the 3rd (and I could make an argument for 2nd over Brady and the Cheatriots) best starting QB and the 2nd best backup quarterback (behind Warner) in the NFL!

Dino 6 Rings
07-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Nice read on the backups - that's something you don't hear about every day.

Nice to see Ben #3 too, he'll be number 1 before the season is over.


On another note, Tony Romo will never be a "top QB" for me until he actually proves he can win a playoff game. Until then, he'll be looking in from the outside. He doesn't belong in this group yet.

Same could be said for Carson Palmer. How long til he's considered a Bust? The guy hasn't won crap in the league.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 12:42 PM
Same could be said for Carson Palmer. How long til he's considered a Bust? The guy hasn't won crap in the league.

A bust? Are you serious? Just because his team has sucked? Take off the black and gold glasses.

I guess Marino was a "bust" too. :coffee:

Dino 6 Rings
07-09-2008, 12:51 PM
A bust? Are you serious? Just because his team has sucked? Take off the black and gold glasses.

I guess Marino was a "bust" too. :coffee:

Marino won playoff games and actually got there more than one time in his carreer. When Palmer gets to sniff numbers like Marino has in his career, then talk to me, until then, deal with the fact, he isn't a great leader of that team. And being the Leader is one of the most important factors of being the QB at the NFL Level.

Sure hope you have a new head coach lined up for the 09 season. Cause that joke of a Who Dey coach you got now is out the door after another pathetic season this year.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Marino won playoff games and actually got there more than one time in his carreer. When Palmer gets to sniff numbers like Marino has in his career, then talk to me, until then, deal with the fact, he isn't a great leader of that team. And being the Leader is one of the most important factors of being the QB at the NFL Level.

Sure hope you have a new head coach lined up for the 09 season. Cause that joke of a Who Dey coach you got now is out the door after another pathetic season this year.

Let's look at this a little closer...in Marino's first 7 years as a starter, his team won more than 8 games only twice. Palmer has been the starter for 4 years thus far and has one season over with more than 8 wins. If Palmer can manage just one more winning season in the next 3 years, he'll be right on Marino's pace as far as team success goes.

But the point is, calling Palmer a bust is one of the more idiotic statements I've seen on this board in the 3+ years I've been here, and trust me, there have been some pretty dumb things said.

Palmer's 4 years as a starter: 90.1 QB rating, 64.1 completion %, 14,899 yards, 244.2 ypg, 7.3 y/a, 104 TD's, 63 INT's, 34 wins, 1 playoff appearance

Roethlisberger's 4 years as a starter: 92.5 QB rating, 63.2 completion %, 11,673 yards, 208.4 ypg, 8.1 y/a, 84 TD's, 54 INT's, 44 wins, 3 playoff appearances

The main difference? Roethlisberger doesn't play for a team that's sucked since the 80's.

Dino 6 Rings
07-09-2008, 01:27 PM
Ben played in 7 Playoff games, that's a little bit better than just throwing 1 playoff pass. And Ben has a ring. Marino was the starter in 83, 12-4, 84, 14-2, 85, 12-4. Then the team fell off and he had 4 average seasons only to go 12-4 again in 90. Palmer will never see 3 years like that in his entire career. Take it to the bank.

I didn't call Palmer a Bust now, I said how much longer until his Not Winning has him considered a Bust. Go 8-8 Carson and tell me how great you are again.

Comparing Palmer in anyway to Marino is what's idiotic. We'll see how "great" Palmer is this year with his disgruntled and depleted receiving corp.

Clap, Clap, Clap.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 01:45 PM
Ben played in 7 Playoff games, that's a little bit better than just throwing 1 playoff pass.
1 playoff pass for a measly 66 yards. It's all Palmer's fault that he got injured in that game as well...couldn't have been Eric Steinbach's fault for pushing Kimo directly into his league. Nah, it's obviously Carson's fault. A real QB would have had stronger ligaments.

It's definitely Carson's fault that the Bengals defense has been in the bottom 5 all 4 years he's been playing. If he were a real leader, he'd inspire that defense to go out and play like the Steel Curtain of the 70's. Shit man, if he were a real football player, he'd go out there and play defense as well...what a wimp.

It's totally Carson's fault that the Bengals are such a miserable franchise. Nevermind the fact that he's accounted for the only non-losing seasons in the Bengals' last 18 years...nah, it's all just a fluke. The only reason the Bengals win any games is because of Chad Johnson and Marvin Lewis's incredible coaching...duh

We'll see how "great" Palmer is this year with his disgruntled and depleted receiving corp.
Yeah man, let's see how Carson responds to the team being even worse (is that possible?), then we'll get an accurate measure of how good of a QB he is.

Shoo man, if Big Ben were the Bengals QB, we'd already have 3 Super Bowl trophies...you know, because he could single-handedly carry a team without a defense or running game. He's that damn good I hear. Enough of this Carson loser.

:coffee:

Dino 6 Rings
07-09-2008, 02:37 PM
Good, I'm glad you agree that Carson hasn't lived up to his hype and isn't the "great QB" he was billed to be. He hasn't saved the franchise and only brought them one winning season in his tenure and looking at that roster and coaching staff...I don't think he brings them another winning season anytime soon.

Hey, if the QB gets credit for the winning seasons...he also gets credit for the losing ones. So if "he's accounted for the only non-losing seasons in the Bengals' last 18 years" is true, then the other 3 non winning mediocre 500 seasons are on his head as well.

lilyoder6
07-09-2008, 03:49 PM
i wouldnt call palmer a bust either or later dopwn the road.. he is better than most of the starting qb's... he is a good qb w/ a good arm... it's not his fault that he plays w/ the bengals but he does give them a chance to win evry game.. and thats all u can ask 4 from a qb to give u a chance to win evry game

missedgehead
07-09-2008, 04:05 PM
I am glad to see that Ben is getting his respect. FINALLY. His ranking third is about right. Now to the Carson issue. Carson gets alot of hype from ESPN and fantasy geeks and all for a QB who has yet to win a playoff game. I do admit that Can't Stop 85 does have a point that he is hampered by the fact that he is on a team that has been terrible, especially (I live in Lexington KY so I am fairly familiar.) on special teams and on defense. Comparing the stats between Ben and Carson, they look fairly similar but Ben does have the ring, etc, but he did happen to land on a pretty decent team also. Ben's situation was almost like Rivers' situation. In 2006, everyone was saying when Rivers took over that Rivers was a top 5 QB etc. Well, DUH.......look at that team he was on. Look at that O Line, and that RB powerhouse, Tomlinson, etc, etc that he had. ANYONE , and I mean almost ANYONE even any of the WWE Superstars that I like to watch if you gave them the playbook could be a Top 5 QB with that Charger Team that Rivers was on. Ben got on a Steelers team that wound up going what, 15-1 and then won the Super Bowl. Carson on the other hand got on a team that has been losing for years. I am not apologizing for Carson but I think it is a bit harsh to say he is a bust though. JMO

benavidez
07-09-2008, 04:39 PM
ben has alot left in him peyton and brady are getting older so there proably gonna retire in bout a few years lets hope that ben can keep up the good work and maybe one day become #1 on that list

Dino 6 Rings
07-09-2008, 05:50 PM
What Big Game has Carson Palmer ever won since he's been in the league?

Sure he's a Stats Machine against the Browns and Ravens...but that doesn't make him a Winner.

He's 2-6 against the Steelers. Not counting his one play against them in the Playoffs.

He's 0-3 against the Patriots

He's 0-2 against the Colts

Yeah, way to Step Up in the Big Game. He gets way too much credit and takes none of the blame. I seem to remember that season that the Bengals won the AFC North that their Defense was leading the league in turnovers. But they get no credit for that, it was all Carson wasn't it.

He Does Not Lead his team to Victory. Over Rated

stlrtruck
07-10-2008, 09:21 AM
I wish Ben wouldn't get respect. Heck I wish everyone dissed the Steelers more and more. The team seems to unite behind themselves better if it's that way otherwise they tend to buy into the hype and play down to their competition!!!

Vis
07-10-2008, 09:39 AM
What Big Game has Carson Palmer ever won since he's been in the league?

Sure he's a Stats Machine against the Browns and Ravens...but that doesn't make him a Winner.

He's 2-6 against the Steelers. Not counting his one play against them in the Playoffs.

He's 0-3 against the Patriots

He's 0-2 against the Colts

Yeah, way to Step Up in the Big Game. He gets way too much credit and takes none of the blame. I seem to remember that season that the Bengals won the AFC North that their Defense was leading the league in turnovers. But they get no credit for that, it was all Carson wasn't it.

He Does Not Lead his team to Victory. Over Rated

It seems so obvious. Palmer doesn't have "it".

9-5
07-10-2008, 11:52 AM
It seems so obvious. Palmer doesn't have "it".
A team that can compete in the playoffs? A defense that doesn't rely on turnovers to be effective? An offensive line?

millwalldavey
07-10-2008, 12:00 PM
Ben is, IMHO, the best one in the NFL. Arm, mobility, smarts, toughness, leadership. He is the whole package. Some might have a better arm, or grasp of their offense, but none of those ranked higher can beat him on mobility, toughness and leadership.

We'll see how good TommyBoy is when the NFL lets him get knocked around, like he did in the Super Bowl.

fansince'76
07-10-2008, 12:07 PM
We'll see how good TommyBoy is when the NFL lets him get knocked around, like he did in the Super Bowl.

Simple - he gets a cupcake schedule this year. Don't expect the Golden Boy knob-slobbing to stop anytime soon, especially when he's in late in the 4th quarter with Moss running up the score on such powerhouses as Miami and San Fran. :rolleyes:

Dino 6 Rings
07-10-2008, 12:08 PM
A team that can compete in the playoffs? A defense that doesn't rely on turnovers to be effective? An offensive line?

Like I've stated previously, the QB gets credit for the wins and therefore should be also equally blamed for the losses. Just because he's on a crappy team doesn't mean he shouldn't have a say in the types of players on his team. He's the effing QB. if He knows his receivers are punks, like Henry, he needs to get the front office to make a trade. If he thinks his receivers are taking plays off, Chad, then he needs to address it and motivate the coach to do something about it. Don't just say "woe is me, the guys around me stink" Either do something about it and get a win or STFU about being one of the "best in the league".

For all the knocking of the "team around him" he couldn't put up any good numbers without TJ, Chad, and Henry Catching the ball the last few years since he's been the QB in Cincy. But they don't get any credit for wins, its all Carson, and when they lose, its all the defensive's fault. Ef that. He isn't that great and doesn't have the "IT" that is required to win at the NFL Level. Not win big games anyway. He's a great fantasy and stats guy but isn't going to win games against great teams. Ever. That's my story and I'm sticking to it until he proves me wrong.

CantStop85
07-10-2008, 02:26 PM
he needs to get the front office to make a trade. If he thinks his receivers are taking plays off, Chad, then he needs to address it and motivate the coach to do something about it. Don't just say "woe is me, the guys around me stink" Either do something about it and get a win or STFU about being one of the "best in the league".


You never cease to amaze me. :chuckle:

Vis
07-10-2008, 02:29 PM
A team that can compete in the playoffs? A defense that doesn't rely on turnovers to be effective? An offensive line?

That presence. Poise. A cool demeanor

millwalldavey
07-10-2008, 10:30 PM
He's 2-6 against the Steelers. Not counting his one play against them in the Playoffs.


http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/Sweep.jpg

revefsreleets
07-11-2008, 09:39 AM
"Sweep the leg".

Reminds me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlQNtL8F9s

9-5
07-12-2008, 12:39 AM
Like I've stated previously, the QB gets credit for the wins and therefore should be also equally blamed for the losses. Just because he's on a crappy team doesn't mean he shouldn't have a say in the types of players on his team. He's the effing QB. if He knows his receivers are punks, like Henry, he needs to get the front office to make a trade. If he thinks his receivers are taking plays off, Chad, then he needs to address it and motivate the coach to do something about it. Don't just say "woe is me, the guys around me stink" Either do something about it and get a win or STFU about being one of the "best in the league".

For all the knocking of the "team around him" he couldn't put up any good numbers without TJ, Chad, and Henry Catching the ball the last few years since he's been the QB in Cincy. But they don't get any credit for wins, its all Carson, and when they lose, its all the defensive's fault. Ef that. He isn't that great and doesn't have the "IT" that is required to win at the NFL Level. Not win big games anyway. He's a great fantasy and stats guy but isn't going to win games against great teams. Ever. That's my story and I'm sticking to it until he proves me wrong.
The QB can't take the blame for everything. By your logic, Big Ben should take the blame your defense getting owned by Maurice Jones-Drew. Genius, seriously! I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner!! :doh::doh:
And going to the front office and asking them to drop ocho sinco is suicide. Players don't demand moves of the management. What's the point of a GM if players rule the roster?
That presence. Poise. A cool demeanor
Since when does he not have poise? We will never know how well he would have done if he didnt get his leg crushed. From that pass, he looked pretty poised and cool to me owning your defense.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-12-2008, 10:17 AM
I don't know, seems kind of easy to me. Browns have 9 NFL Championships, Steelers have 5. Browns have a winning percentage of .532, Steelers are at .507 . Browns have the greatest running back of all time, Steelers don't. Who do you think is better? :blah::blah:

HMMM...... 1st of all the 5 of those "championships" came when they were in the AAFC league consisting of 7 teams. Baltimore Colts, Buffalo Bills, Chicago Hornets, Los Angeles Dons, New York Yankees, San Francisco 49ers, and the Cleveland Browns. Sorry those don't count for NFL championships! The 4 you did get came when the price of gas was like 25cents a gal!

2nd. Let's keep this in perspective shall we?! Let's assume that the average age of an NFL fan is 40 and that's pushing it. In the last 40 years the records are as follows... Browns 264-296-4 @ .468 win %. Steelers are 354-255-3 @ .578 win %. Not even close! And if you are a young pup and want to drop that average age, even that doesn't help the Browns! Let's not forget the 3 years cleveland didn't have a team! 1995 browns were 5-11 then they left for buttamore. 1999 they are back for a 2-14 record. It's safe to assume that the win % would be worse had they had a team in those 3 years.

3rd. Jim Brown 12,312 rushing yards (1) Championship. Jerome Bettis 13,653 rushing yards (1) Championship. It's hard to compare because they are from different eras. I'm not saying the Bus was the greatest, but niether was Jim Brown!

NOT a good idea for a browns fan to talk smack on a Steelers board!
But please be my guest and continue to do so. It's fun to put browns fans in thier place! (that's always behind the Steelers fans)

CantStop85
07-12-2008, 04:30 PM
HMMM...... 1st of all the 5 of those "championships" came when they were in the AAFC league consisting of 7 teams. Baltimore Colts, Buffalo Bills, Chicago Hornets, Los Angeles Dons, New York Yankees, San Francisco 49ers, and the Cleveland Browns. Sorry those don't count for NFL championships! The 4 you did get came when the price of gas was like 25cents a gal!

2nd. Let's keep this in perspective shall we?! Let's assume that the average age of an NFL fan is 40 and that's pushing it. In the last 40 years the records are as follows... Browns 264-296-4 @ .468 win %. Steelers are 354-255-3 @ .578 win %. Not even close! And if you are a young pup and want to drop that average age, even that doesn't help the Browns! Let's not forget the 3 years cleveland didn't have a team! 1995 browns were 5-11 then they left for buttamore. 1999 they are back for a 2-14 record. It's safe to assume that the win % would be worse had they had a team in those 3 years.

3rd. Jim Brown 12,312 rushing yards (1) Championship. Jerome Bettis 13,653 rushing yards (1) Championship. It's hard to compare because they are from different eras. I'm not saying the Bus was the greatest, but niether was Jim Brown!

NOT a good idea for a browns fan to talk smack on a Steelers board!
But please be my guest and continue to do so. It's fun to put browns fans in thier place! (that's always behind the Steelers fans)

I don't really have anything constructive to say, but I'm going to put everything in bold and maybe a few key words in red so that it appears that I do.

lilyoder6
07-12-2008, 04:52 PM
that was fuuny 85.. but honeslty.. CP is a good qb and they "had" there yr and couldn't do anything.. the defense has been there weakness until they get some playmakers on that side of the ball CP/bengals will not win many playoff games...

barry sanders is the best ever.. it was just a shame that he played 4 the lions

FordsnSteelers
07-12-2008, 07:41 PM
Maybe Roethlisberger can break Tom Ladies record* this season without cheating

Hammer Of The GODS
07-12-2008, 10:31 PM
I don't really have anything constructive to say, but I'm going to put everything in bold and maybe a few key words in red so that it appears that I do.

Don't like the bold? Tuff! Not constructive? I saw a lame effort to assert that the clowns are better than the Steelers and I squashed it! Wanna talk trash about my Steelers? I'm not gonna wait for a "better" thread to beatch slap you!

You're just jealous that I stepped on your little topic! You want constructive? How about this............ Your team sucks! Now I know that's only 3 words, but when those 3 words are used to describe the cincinasty bungholes those 3 words are all you need! More constructive? How about 268-343-1 team lifetime win % .437! Even the clowns have a better record! More? How about a list of Hall of Famers? cincinasty- (2) Munoz and "Charlie Joiner"(sad that the bungholes have to steal the chargers thunder, he is in the Hall because of his years in SD not cincinasty!) Number of Steeler HOF's - Do I really need this arguement? :chuckle: Let's not forget the town itself...... cincinasty..... the town that spawned Charles Manson!

Don't poke the bear my friend!

Almost forgot............. GO STEELERS! :tt03:

9-5
07-14-2008, 12:09 AM
[SIZE="2"][B]HMMM...... 1st of all the 5 of those "championships" came when they were in the AAFC league consisting of 7 teams. Sorry those don't count for NFL championships!
According to the NFL, they do.

2nd. Let's keep this in perspective shall we?! Let's assume that the average age of an NFL fan is 40 and that's pushing it. In the last 40 years the records are as follows... Browns 264-296-4 @ .468 win %. Steelers are 354-255-3 @ .578 win %. Not even close!
Which makes my point more valid. Your dominance since the 70's has been near un-rivaled. But, until then, the Pittsburgh Steelers were a horrible franchise, with one playoff game until the 70's.

3rd. Jim Brown 12,312 rushing yards (1) Championship. Jerome Bettis 13,653 rushing yards (1) Championship. It's hard to compare because they are from different eras. I'm not saying the Bus was the greatest, but niether was Jim Brown!
Did the bus average 100 yards+ a game? Nope. Did Jim Brown? Yes
Jerome Bettis: 3479 carries for 13,662 yards for a 3.9 average with 91 Touchdowns in 192 career games
Jim Brown: 2359 carries for 12, 312 yards for a 5.2 average with 106 Touchdowns in 118 career games.
Jerome needed 74 more games to rush for 1350 more yards. If Jim Brown ran for 104 yards a game in his fictional 10th season, he winds up with 1456 yards. So, if we assume he plays 3 more seasons at the same clip, he is the all time rushing leader.

Blitzburgh_Fever
07-14-2008, 03:17 AM
According to the NFL, they do.


Which makes my point more valid. Your dominance since the 70's has been near un-rivaled. But, until then, the Pittsburgh Steelers were a horrible franchise, with one playoff game until the 70's.


Did the bus average 100 yards+ a game? Nope. Did Jim Brown? Yes
Jerome Bettis: 3479 carries for 13,662 yards for a 3.9 average with 91 Touchdowns in 192 career games
Jim Brown: 2359 carries for 12, 312 yards for a 5.2 average with 106 Touchdowns in 118 career games.
Jerome needed 74 more games to rush for 1350 more yards. If Jim Brown ran for 104 yards a game in his fictional 10th season, he winds up with 1456 yards. So, if we assume he plays 3 more seasons at the same clip, he is the all time rushing leader.

Man Jim Brown was pretty sick. We got enough to pick on the Browns for, let's not hit Jim Brown. Dude was one of the hardest workers the NFL has ever seen, let's stick to mocking them for no Lombardis, poor management, Tim Couch, etc

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 10:16 AM
Brown was the first truly "big" back to play RB, not FB. He was what? 230? The difference is that Bettis was about 260 (listed) and a lot of people believe he played somewhere between 280 and 300 lbs.

The fact is, a guy that big should not have been able to last anywhere near as long as he did at that position. Jim Brown was the best big back to ever play, but Bettis will probably be the biggest back to ever play as long and as well. When you see these big guys come into the league, dudes at 260+, they just cannot carry the load, even splitting time, and are usually out of the league in a year or two. I'm not sure we'll ever see a guy as freakishly large as Bettis play as long and effectively ever again.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
07-14-2008, 10:22 AM
No way eagles should be at #7