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CantStop85
07-09-2008, 10:57 PM
What's a list of overrated quarterbacks without a list of underrated quarterbacks? Also courtesy of Cold, Hard Football Facts.com:
The 5 Most Underrated Quarterbacks Ever

5. Chad Pennington (2000-present)
Can we give a little love to Herbie the Dentist? Jets fans have certainly never been sold on him. And a spate of injuries hasn’t helped Pennington’s career or his reputation in New York and around the league.

But he boasts the 7th best passer rating in NFL history (88.89) and the No. 5 mark among active players. Believe it or not, Pennington had a better career passer rating than Tom Brady heading into the 2007 season.

Pennington is also the most accurate passer in league history, with a record 65.61 career completion percentage. Hard to believe, considering he puts up so many parabolas that the networks want to hire him as a sideline sound man following his next rotator cuff injury in October.

And the lack of a laser, rocket arm is compounded by the quality of the offensive talent around him, which has never been spectacular.

But proof of Pennington’s proficiency is evidenced by the fortunes of the Jets when he plays and when he doesn’t: Pennington has played in 12 or more games just three times in a season since replacing Vinny Testaverde in 2002. The Jets have made the playoffs all three of those seasons (2002, 2004, 2006). They failed to win even half their games every other season (2003, 2005, 2007).

Head coach Eric Mangini was “Man-Genius” in his rookie season at the helm in 2006. Pennington, not so coincidentally, played every single game for the one and only time in his career that year. Mangini became a duplicitous rat turncoat in 2007 while his team struggled through a 4-12 sophomore campaign – and Pennington started just 8 games.

In other words the Jets are a playoff team when Pennington plays; they’re an also-ran when he doesn’t. He’s a difference-maker at quarterback and one of the most precise parabola-tossers the game has ever seen.

If not for the rash of injuries we might be talking about a player who competes with Brady and Peyton Manning for status as the best quarterback in the league today.

4. Sonny Jurgensen (1957-74)
Sure, Christian Adolph Jurgensen III is in the Hall of Fame. Clearly, somebody thinks – or thought – he was a pretty good player.

But find someone today who names Jurgensen among the best quarterbacks ever and you’ll be the first. But he should be included in the discussion. For Jurgensen may be the greatest pure passer the game has ever seen.

It’s all the more impressive considering he was barely 5 feet 11 inches – a short passer in any era.

For proof of Jurgensen’s proficiency you need to look no further – naturally – than the Cold, Hard Football Facts: Jurgensen is the No. 1 rated passer of the Dead Ball Era (82.62), a period when defenders could do everything but waterboard receivers without drawing a penalty or an ACLU lawsuit.

He was a contemporary of Hall of Famers Bart Starr, Len Dawson and Johnny Unitas, and not one of them (in fact, nobody in the history of the game through 1977) passed the ball as efficiently as Jurgensen.

To put Jurgensen’s passer rating into perspective, consider that John Elway played his entire career in the Live Ball Era, and his career passer rating (79.86) is nearly three full points lower than Jurgensen’s. And Elway’s no chump. He’s in the HOF himself.

Jurgensen spent his first four years in Philly as a back-up to Hall of Famer Norm Van Brocklin. But given a chance in 1961, he quickly proved his was a special kind of player with 3,723 passing yards and 32 TDs. Both were NFL records.

In fact, his 3,723 passing yards in 1961 were Ruthian in their enormity – nearly 700 yards greater than the previous record of 3,099 passing yards set by Johnny Unitas just one year earlier. Jurgensen broke his own NFL passing record with 3,747 yards in 1967 – though his mark was overshadowed that season by Joe Namath’s 4,007 yards in the AFL.

Jurgensen led the league in passing yards a record (tied with Dan Marino) five times (1961, 1962, 1966, 1967, 1969), and he led the league in TD tosses twice (1961, 1967).

He was, in other words, the Dan Marino of the Dead Ball Era, but an even more efficient passer by the standards of their respective periods. Jurgensen’s 82.62 passer rating is vastly greater than the league-wide average 67.13 passer rating during his playing days. Marino’s career passer rating is 86.38, but he played in an era when the league-wide average rating was 76.22.

The problem, of course, is that Jurgensen (like Marino) never led a team to a title (he won one as Van Brocklin’s back-up in Philly in 1960). But then again, he played largely in an era when there were no playoffs. Until 1966, the conference champions simply met in the NFL title game. Jurgensen’s 1961 Eagles, for example, went 10-4 but missed out on the playoffs because the Giants captured the Eastern Conference crown with a 10-3-1 record. By those standards, guys like Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning would never have won championships, either.

But those 1961 Eagles were the exception during Jurgensen’s career. He largely played on middling teams. And when George Allen took over the Redskins in 1971, he favored the younger Billy Kilmer to run the offense.

Still, if we’re looking at individual performers, you can call Jurgensen the greatest passer of all time in full confidence that the Cold, Hard Football Facts have your back and that nobody has enough ammunition to dispute you.

3. Earl Morrall (1956-76)
Morrall is one of the most fascinating figures in NFL history – a career back-up who spent 21 years in the league, yet quarterbacked two of the most dominant teams in NFL history and, despite his brief periods on the field, produced some of the most awe-inspiring passing stats the game has ever seen.

Yet to most fans, those why deny themselves the nourishing, hop-flavored nectar of the Cold, Hard Football Facts, Morrall is remembered mostly as a historical footnote (if he's even remembered at all).

With the 1968 Colts, the 34-year-old Morrall (acquired from the Giants that off-season) replaced the injured Johnny Unitas right from Week 1 and helped engineer one of the single most dominant seasons in NFL history.

The 1968 Colts went 13-1 and boasted the greatest scoring differential of the Super Bowl Era (+18.4 PPG) until it was surpassed by the 2007 Patriots.

The 1968 Colts, of course, were shocked by the Jets in Super Bowl III and Morrall resumed his back-up role the following year.

But the Earl Morrall Story wasn’t over.

Remarkably, he engineered an even greater feat of back-ups-manship while a 38-year-old dinosaur playing with the 1972 Dolphins. Starter Bob Griese went down in Week 5. But Morrall stepped in and picked up right where he left off with the Colts in 1968. He was the starting quarterback in 11 of the 17 victories for the only undefeated team in NFL history. In fact, he started every game from Week 6 through the AFC championship game. Then coach Don Shula benched Morrall for the Super Bowl and re-inserted Griese. The offense under Griese went into the tank – the 14 points in the Super Bowl was Miami’s lowest output all year – but they did still hold on to beat the Redskins 14-7.

Naturally, you look at teams like the 1968 Colts and 1972 Dolphins and wonder not only how they persevered, but how they could stand as some of the greatest teams in history with a back-up quarterback in the lead role.

But then you look at the Cold, Hard Football Facts and find that Morrall was truly one of the great underrated quarterbacks in history. His career 74.09 passer rating ranks 11th of the Dead Ball Era, one spot ahead of Hall of Famer Y.A. Tittle and well ahead of other Dead Ball Era Hall of Fame quarterbacks such as Sammy Baugh, Joe Namath, Bobby Layne and George Blanda. In fact, Morrall surpasses Namath in almost every single measure of passing efficiency. He was, in other words, a better quarterback than Joe Namath.

Morrall also averaged 7.74 passing yards per attempt, a figure that still stands as 11th best in the history of football – one spot ahead of Peyton Manning on the all-time list.

One wonders what Morrall might have accomplished had he spent more time under center and less time on the sidelines. After all, the results when he did play were pretty damn impressive.

CantStop85
07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
2. Kurt Warner (1998-present)
One of the greatest mysteries in modern sports was the existence of a “quarterback debate” in Arizona last year.

On the one hand, you had Matt Leinart, a petulant prima donna with a 71.2 career passer rating whose greatest accomplishment since joining the NFL was serving as guest editor of ESPN the Rag in 2007. On the other hand, you had Kurt Warner, a two-time NFL MVP with the 93.2 career passer rating whose greatest accomplishment was stepping out of the supermarket stock aisles and arena league desert to lead the Rams to their one and only Super Bowl title.

What the hell was the controversy?

Of course, when you realize that it’s Arizona, the single worst franchise in the history of North American sports, the quarterback “controversy” is no longer a mystery. The Cardinals simply have their heads up their collective asses when it comes to their quarterbacking situation, and just about everything else for that matter.

Sure, Leinart might be the quarterback of the future – provided his performances improve dramatically. But Warner is definitely the guy who gives you the best chance to win today and he has the Cold, Hard Football Facts to prove it.

Warner is:
One of the most efficient passers in history, as evidenced by his No. 3 position on the all-time passer rating list (93.17), sandwiched right between two guys named Manning (94.72) and Brady (92.93).
One of the most deadly accurate passers in history, as evidenced by his 65.09 career completion percentage, second best in history (behind Pennington).
One of the most productive passers in history, as evidenced by his average of 8.11 yards per pass attempt, 5th best in NFL history and second (to Ben Roethlisberger) among all Live Ball Era passers.
Warner’s reputation took a huge hit with St. Louis’s loss to New England in Super Bowl XXXVI and with the fumbles and injuries that plagued him the following season. Then he had the misfortune of fighting for playing time with No. 1 draft picks in New York (Eli Manning) and Arizona (Leinart).

Neither of those quarterbacks should be allowed to sniff Warner’s jock strap (O.K., Eli can sniff it after last season's clutch performance). But, as we’ve so often seen, Cold, Hard Football Facts don’t always matter in the NFL. It’s a league where coaches and organizations often commit suicide by insisting that the inferior performer is a better performer simply because he’s a high draft pick who bangs Hollywood starlets.

But that’s their problem.

All we know is this: among all the quarterbacks who will lace up their cleats this season, three of them belong in the Hall of Fame: Brady, Manning and Warner.

1. Ken Anderson (1971-86)
The fact that Dan Fouts and Warren Moon are in the Hall of Fame and Ken Anderson is not stands as the greatest injustice to hit Canton since England sedated half of China during the Opium Wars.

Anderson is a first-ballot Hall of Famer who history has forgotten in favor of lesser performers like Fouts, Moon, even Jim Kelly, among others.

This guy was awesome – certainly Hall of Fame-caliber awesome – and certainly more awesome than Fouts or Moon.

For example, let’s have a little pop quiz: Who led the league in passer rating four times, Anderson, Fouts or Moon?

If you guessed Anderson, you’re right! In fact, Fouts or Moon never led the league in passer rating. Anderson accomplished this feat in 1974, 1975, 1981 and 1982.

To put those numbers into perspective, consider that only Sammy Baugh and Steve Young led the league more often in passer rating (six times each).

But those historic numbers tell only part of the story.

Anderson’s 81.68 career passer rating is second among multi-era players, behind only the great Roger Staubach. He even holds the single-season record for completion percent (70.6) – though the fact he set it in the strike-shortened, nine-game 1982 season makes it jump out as a clear statistical outlier. Still, he did it.

The consistency with which Anderson was always among the league’s most efficient passers is made all the more impressive by the fact that twice each year the career Cincinnati QB had to line up against Lambert, Greene, Blount and arguably the greatest defense in history.

But even the Steel Curtain often struggled to rein in Anderson: In a 1974 meeting, Anderson completed 20 of 22 passes against the eventual Super Bowl champions. The 90.9 completion percentage that day stands as the second highest ever in a regular-season NFL game. It’s not like he mowed down a Triple A line-up that day, either, folks. He completed 20 of 22 passes against one of the most star-studded defenses in history, and near the very depths of offensive production that marked the the lowest points of the Dead Ball Era.

Did we mention Anderson was pretty good?

It certainly helped that he spent his early years under the tutelage of Bengals head coach and founder Paul Brown, probably the greatest offensive mind in the history of the game.

Alas, Anderson suffered the indiginity of never winning a championship. He had his closest shot in 1981, when he led the Bengals to a 12-4 record and an appearance in Super Bowl XVI, where they were edged 26-21 by an even better quarterback (Joe Montana) and better team (the 13-3 49ers).

So Anderson will never make our list of Top 10 greatest quarterbacks, for example. But he certainly deserves a spot in Canton (preferably the one in Ohio, not the one in China). And the fact that much lesser players at his position have entered before him, and that he's no longer even in the HOF discussion, makes Anderson the clear choice as the most underrated quarterback in history.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2286_The_most_underrated_quarterbacks.html

tony hipchest
07-10-2008, 12:44 AM
how ironic that the most "underrated qb" is now coaching the 2nd most underrated qb?

who is the bungles qb coach btw? kordell stewart?

or kent graham?

revefsreleets
07-10-2008, 10:52 AM
Where is Bubby Brister on that list?

Seriously, I always thought Jim Zorn was underrated.

millwalldavey
07-10-2008, 12:10 PM
Earl Morall may be the most underrated ever IMHO. Playing behind Unitas and Greise.... and playing flawlessly in their stead. (Cept for SBIII)

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-10-2008, 01:05 PM
Pennington is not underrated, he's mid level talent performing mediocre.

Kurt Warner caught lightning in a bottle for a few seasons.

Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Bernie Kosar, Brian Sipe, Jim Zorn, were all underated because they played on bad teams.

Sammy Baugh is the most underrated QB ever, because he played so long ago that most dont remember him. Sammy was the MAN.

millwalldavey
07-10-2008, 01:52 PM
Jim Zorn was a good example of an underrated QB. Bob Griese could be on this list as well...

Here's some more ideas, whadda you think: (not saying they are... just throwing it at the wall to see if it sticks!)

Doug Williams
Steve Grogan
Ken O'Brien
MArk Rypien
Phill Sims
Jeff Hostetler
Danny White
Ron Jaworski

CantStop85
07-10-2008, 02:42 PM
how ironic that the most "underrated qb" is now coaching the 2nd most underrated qb?

who is the bungles qb coach btw? kordell stewart?

or kent graham?

Mike Tomczak

:chuckle:

LambertIsGod58
07-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Pennington? Are we serious?

tony hipchest
07-10-2008, 02:55 PM
Mike Tomczak

:chuckle:lol.... :dang:

what a strange era of steeler qb's. :banging: and to think jim miller was the one that got away. :doh:

i guess anderson is fitting at the top of this list. i think his impact in his 1st year as bens coach has been underrated too.

HometownGal
07-10-2008, 03:41 PM
Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Bernie Kosar, Brian Sipe, Jim Zorn, were all underated because they played on bad teams.



I agree 100% ElGonzo, especially with regard to Kenny Anderson. He used to give the Steelers D fits. I also agree with the choice of Earl Morrall as a terribly underrated QB.

Go ahead and chuckle, but I strongly feel Rich Gannon was definitely underrated during his time with the Raiders.

fansince'76
07-10-2008, 03:57 PM
Always thought Ken O'Brien was pretty underrated too - he was a good QB. Unfortunately, he was part of the QB class of '83 and was overshadowed. On top of that, he played on a lot of poor Jets teams.

GBMelBlount
07-10-2008, 04:34 PM
Sammy Baugh is the most underrated QB ever, because he played so long ago that most dont remember him. Sammy was the MAN.

Baugh was a Beast.

CantStop85
07-10-2008, 04:37 PM
lol.... :dang:

what a strange era of steeler qb's. :banging: and to think jim miller was the one that got away. :doh:

i guess anderson is fitting at the top of this list. i think his impact in his 1st year as bens coach has been underrated too.

Yeah, Anderson is even underrated amongst a lot of Bengals fans...you know, the ones who think Boomer is hall-of-fame worthy. :doh:

Anyone who could complete 20 of 22 passes against the 70's Steelers deserves at least some kind of respect.

A couple of the QB's on the list I have to partially defend...Kurt Warner and Chad Pennington. A lot of people say Kurt Warner was a "flash-in-the-pan" while he was with the Rams, getting by with an exceptional supporting cast on offense, but even an over-the-hill Warner was outperforming Matt Leinart with the Cardinals last year.

Chad Pennington was never an elite QB and never had much arm strength, but the guy was a very accurate passer when he was healthy and he also led an average Jets team to a few wins. Noodle arm may never beat the great Kyle Boller in a deep ball contest, but he certainly wasn't as bad as many people claimed him to be. When healthy he's a good game-managing quarterback who won't make too many mistakes.

Preacher
07-10-2008, 04:49 PM
The funniest thing about this thread...

Even when a QB is supposedly a HOF stat QB... he can't make the HOF because...


THE BENGALS SUCK!

Blitzburgh_Fever
07-10-2008, 06:02 PM
Go ahead and chuckle, but I strongly feel Rich Gannon was definitely underrated during his time with the Raiders.

I kind of agree honestly HTG. A lot of people, perhaps accurately, refer to him as a one-trick pony, the "trick" being his vicious sidearm. I've always felt that was selling him short. He played a Tampa Bay D that literally knew their plays due to Gruden (nothing illegal there, but a tad shady). I remember watching the NFL Network and seeing John Lynch talk about recognizing a play and calling it out to his teammates (a play Gruden had designed, evidently). Again, nothing illegal or disparaging to Tampa Bay or Lynch or Gruden, but that's pretty brutal to go against.

The Raiders put on an impressive show in 02, but got stopped by a truly smothering defense. Rich Gannon might not be a Top 5 Underrated QB, but he is generally unfairly discarded when talking of good QBs in the last ten years.

silver & black
07-10-2008, 06:13 PM
I agree 100% ElGonzo, especially with regard to Kenny Anderson. He used to give the Steelers D fits. I also agree with the choice of Earl Morrall as a terribly underrated QB.

Go ahead and chuckle, but I strongly feel Rich Gannon was definitely underrated during his time with the Raiders.

Really? He did win league MVP when he was with them. Too bad we haven't had a QB since.

silver & black
07-10-2008, 06:17 PM
I kind of agree honestly HTG. A lot of people, perhaps accurately, refer to him as a one-trick pony, the "trick" being his vicious sidearm. I've always felt that was selling him short. He played a Tampa Bay D that literally knew their plays due to Gruden (nothing illegal there, but a tad shady). I remember watching the NFL Network and seeing John Lynch talk about recognizing a play and calling it out to his teammates (a play Gruden had designed, evidently). Again, nothing illegal or disparaging to Tampa Bay or Lynch or Gruden, but that's pretty brutal to go against.

The Raiders put on an impressive show in 02, but got stopped by a truly smothering defense. Rich Gannon might not be a Top 5 Underrated QB, but he is generally unfairly discarded when talking of good QBs in the last ten years.

Agreed. I'm about 99.9% sure we would have 4 Lombardis right now had we faced anyone other than Gruden. Like you said, nothing illegal about it, but it sure was a once in a lifetime fluke to have to face the guy that built your team.

43Hitman
07-10-2008, 06:23 PM
I kind of agree honestly HTG. A lot of people, perhaps accurately, refer to him as a one-trick pony, the "trick" being his vicious sidearm. I've always felt that was selling him short. He played a Tampa Bay D that literally knew their plays due to Gruden (nothing illegal there, but a tad shady). I remember watching the NFL Network and seeing John Lynch talk about recognizing a play and calling it out to his teammates (a play Gruden had designed, evidently). Again, nothing illegal or disparaging to Tampa Bay or Lynch or Gruden, but that's pretty brutal to go against.

The Raiders put on an impressive show in 02, but got stopped by a truly smothering defense. Rich Gannon might not be a Top 5 Underrated QB, but he is generally unfairly discarded when talking of good QBs in the last ten years.


Not to thread jack here, but what where the Raider's thinking. They didn't change a thing with thier playcalling. Gruden just picked thier pocket all day long. It was kinda sad to watch in my opinion.

silver & black
07-10-2008, 06:26 PM
Not to thread jack here, but what the where the Raider's thinking. They didn't change a thing with thier playcalling. Gruden just picked thier pocket all day long. It was kinda sad to watch in my opinion.

No sh*t................ thats why Callahan is no longer the coach.

revefsreleets
07-11-2008, 09:37 AM
Well, to be fair, Art Shell was running an outdated offense on his second stint in Oakland, so it's not like there wasn't precedent for the Raiders.

missedgehead
07-11-2008, 10:50 AM
I would not put Pennington on that list. Pennington is ok. Like El Gonzo Jackson said, Kurt Warner caught lightning in a bottle for a couple of years.

vasteeler
07-11-2008, 12:09 PM
i may hear it but i think neil odonnell was underrated other than SB XXX odonnell
was a pretty good QB

stlrtruck
07-11-2008, 03:53 PM
i may hear it but i think neil odonnell was underrated other than SB XXX odonnell
was a pretty good QB

But he'll always be remembered for SB XXX

revefsreleets
07-11-2008, 05:55 PM
O'Donnell is in the same class as Trent Dilfer: Game manager, expected not to lose games rather than win them. Except Dilfer actually did his job in the big game as opposed to NO. The irony is that Neil O'Donnell had a brilliant season as far as TD/INT ratio...I think he only threw like 6 picks the whole year, maybe even less.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-11-2008, 06:38 PM
I agree 100% ElGonzo, especially with regard to Kenny Anderson. He used to give the Steelers D fits. I also agree with the choice of Earl Morrall as a terribly underrated QB.

Go ahead and chuckle, but I strongly feel Rich Gannon was definitely underrated during his time with the Raiders.

Forget Oakland, Gannon played well in Minnesota and KC too. He's probably gotta be on that list too.

If it wasnt for the Steelers, Raiders, Oilers of the 70's and the 49ers in the 80's....Ken Anderson would have a SB ring and be in Canton by now. He was the first guy to make Bill Walsh's west coast offense work.

MasterOfPuppets
07-12-2008, 12:11 AM
Yeah, Anderson is even underrated amongst a lot of Bengals fans...you know, the ones who think Boomer is hall-of-fame worthy. :doh:

Anyone who could complete 20 of 22 passes against the 70's Steelers deserves at least some kind of respect.

A couple of the QB's on the list I have to partially defend...Kurt Warner and Chad Pennington. A lot of people say Kurt Warner was a "flash-in-the-pan" while he was with the Rams, getting by with an exceptional supporting cast on offense, but even an over-the-hill Warner was outperforming Matt Leinart with the Cardinals last year.

Chad Pennington was never an elite QB and never had much arm strength, but the guy was a very accurate passer when he was healthy and he also led an average Jets team to a few wins. Noodle arm may never beat the great Kyle Boller in a deep ball contest, but he certainly wasn't as bad as many people claimed him to be. When healthy he's a good game-managing quarterback who won't make too many mistakes.your referring to pennington in past tence ,did pennington retire ??? if he's truley been underated all these yrs, wouldn't at least one team want him as a starter, and make a move to get him???

CantStop85
07-12-2008, 04:21 PM
your referring to pennington in past tence ,did pennington retire ??? if he's truley been underated all these yrs, wouldn't at least one team want him as a starter, and make a move to get him???

I put it in the past tense because with all of his injuries and such, I don't think we'll be seeing much of him in the future.

The fact that no teams are really anxious to make him a starter helps in making him truly underrated, IMO. I'm not saying he's a guy I would want to make my franchise QB, but he always played decently for the Jets.

lilyoder6
07-12-2008, 04:55 PM
he has been getting hit w/ the injury bug lately... don't know how much longer he can stay if he keeps getting injured

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 12:10 AM
-Browns homer alert-

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eX7FKDI-fGQ

..is the most underrated QB!

Guy did a hell of a job with about being the speediest guy, and was probably one of the smartest QB's in league history. If not for Marty Schottenheimer being a moron and running the Prevent D in '86, History would've been kinder to BK in a place besides Cleveland :).

I'm still disapointed the Browns havn't hired him as a special assistant to help out DA and BQ. :(.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Kosar was a great game manager and very, very accurate.

KeiselPower99
07-14-2008, 12:19 PM
Everybody disses Chad and he has done nothing but play through injuries and take that team to the playoffs. I remember wishin we drafted him instead of Plax that year.

rbryan
07-14-2008, 12:38 PM
The only think Kosar would be good for at this point would be director of entertainment. He's a freakin drunk nowadays. Have you seen him lately??? He's got the look of someone who drinks hard every day. So yeah bring him on board in Cleveland......lol.....At least he knows the best way to deal with being a Browns fan.

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 08:40 PM
I'll admit, listening to Kosar makes my head hurt sometimes. He sounds like a guy who played in the NFL and wasn't very mobile, taking some hard shots to the head. Oh wait...

However, he was a very bright QB who was very accurate. Maybe he's not a whole lot off the field to anyone outside of Cleveland fans, but when he played, he was good.

RoethlisBURGHer
07-14-2008, 08:54 PM
I like Kosar! His style was so unorthodox it was fun to watch.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 08:59 PM
I like Kosar! His style was so unorthodox it was fun to watch.

:)

The real reason for the success of the Browns Offense in '80s..Schottenheimer called some pretty crappy plays and Kosar would often change them when he got to the huddle with pretty good success. If anyone watched the Jets-Browns game of '86 NFL Films, he tells how he got us in scoring position in order to tie the game and send it into OT, and its just pretty brilliant.

MasterOfPuppets
07-14-2008, 09:23 PM
-



I'm still disapointed the Browns havn't hired him as a special assistant to help out DA and BQ. :(.fooooor.........what ??? to teach em how to throw sidearm ??? :popcorn:

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 09:57 PM
BK was about as intelligent a QB as came in the league. His ability to read defenses and break down game film would be beneficial to our young QB duo. For that matter, it would do wonders for you guys to bring someone in to teach Ben to throw the ball away and learn to get an internal clock going, because he get's himself killed as often as your O-line does.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 10:03 AM
I think between Bernie and Ben, I'll take Ben, thank you. One's style does not suit the other at all...old "Cement Feet Kosar" might have had something to teach Can't Graham, but Ben does juts fine with his own unique style.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 10:33 AM
I understand your wanting a QB that did get you a SB ring. However, you can't possibly be that blind to his weaknesses.

I can tell you with all certainty that DA needs to learn to check down better and to do a better job looking the safeties off. I still like him as a QB, but he has things he needs to work on too.

Learning how to break down film and make quicker reads won't suddenly make Ben lose his athleticism or his size. But it would make him a better QB.

Or does it not matter to you that he improves? Does it not matter to you that he's one of the most sacked QBs in the league these past few years? Do you not care that you're a QB injury away from mediocrity and that your QB has gotten hit/sacked 3 times more than our QB did?

If that's the case, I'd have to say that you're not much of a real Steelers fan.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 10:35 AM
This IS Buckeye Dan, I knew it!

And I LOVE the last little bit of ignorance, flying in here form nowhere and busting on me for not being a real Steelers fan?

You're a real piece of work, kid...

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 11:20 AM
This is not Buckeye Dan. I've always only used XFL2001FAN.

As for saying you're not a real Steelers fan, that statement was a conditional statement. If you don't think your QB needs to improve, then you're an idiot, not a fan. I can guarantee you that Braylon Edwards could learn some stuff from former Steelers WRs who played a different brand of football than he does. I can guarantee you that DA and BQ could learn stuff from Terry Bradshaw, even if he wasn't the greatest (statistical) QB of his own era.

If someone has a skill to offer, you'd be dumb not to take them up on it, even if you were superior to them in every other way possible. That's why guys like Bill Gates and Albert Einstein are such household names. They took a little of this and a little of that from people who knew things they didn't and put it all together.

All I was suggesting was that Ben do the same. I'd suggest that of any player from any team. Find someone who knows something you don't, can help you polish your skills from a different perspective and improve your game. It's sound advice.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 11:35 AM
I never said that Ben doesn't have room to improve. But WTF does a confused and drunk Bernie Kosar bring to the table that he's not going to get from a sober Kenny Anderson? You DO know that Ben has a QB coach, right?

Don't bash then backpeddle, and don't try to cherrypick out of my responses. You sure know how to win friends and infuence people, and it took you all of 20 posts.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 01:46 PM
I never said that Ben doesn't have room to improve. But WTF does a confused and drunk Bernie Kosar bring to the table that he's not going to get from a sober Kenny Anderson? You DO know that Ben has a QB coach, right?

Don't bash then backpeddle, and don't try to cherrypick out of my responses. You sure know how to win friends and infuence people, and it took you all of 20 posts.

So because Bernie's not the most eloquent speakers, he's confused and drunk? I didn't realize that eloquence was necessary. Ever watch him run commentary for games. He still has good insight and film breakdown skills.

You've been cherrypicking my responses the whole time. It seems like you read what you want to read and in a manner with which you choose to read for the sole purpose of bashing anything I say.

I've actually gotten a few PMs from people who see what my intent was and agree with my assessment. People who aren't trying to read too far into what I've said. I'd respond back to them, but it takes a 50 post minimum to reply to PMs. I'll thank them later.

You are basically the only person who has been upset by anything I've said. One other guy has, but he didn't even attempt an intelligent comeback. At least you have shown to have knowledge of the situation, even if you and I can't seem to get on the same wavelength with that information.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 08:45 PM
I'm very happy that you have fans on this site. Hooray for you!

Stop diverting attention from the FACTS. Ben has a QB coach. A good one. It's ridiculous to try and assert that Bernie is going to teach Ben anything. They are different style QB's, playing in different era's, under different systems. You have systematically ignored everything I've told you that you clearly didn't know.

You spewed some shit and you got caught. It's all good, but stop trying to salvage something from it. It's done. Let's move on.

xfl2001fan
07-16-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm very happy that you have fans on this site. Hooray for you!

Stop diverting attention from the FACTS. Ben has a QB coach. A good one. It's ridiculous to try and assert that Bernie is going to teach Ben anything. They are different style QB's, playing in different era's, under different systems. You have systematically ignored everything I've told you that you clearly didn't know.

You spewed some shit and you got caught. It's all good, but stop trying to salvage something from it. It's done. Let's move on.

I understand that Ben has a QB coach. My explanation was that Kosar could teach him stuff. Yes, they are different styles of QBs, but there are still some things that are constant across the board.

Ben could learn from mistakes that Kosar made. He can learn from some good things Kosar did. Could, not should or would, but could. As in, it is a possibility. You make it seem like there's nothing there to learn, but Ben is still a very young QB. Hell, he could learn from guys like Testaverde, Bledsow, Montana, even guys like Ken Dorsey (who doesn't exactly have a great track record as a starting QB) could offer insight.

I'm not questioning Ben's QB coach, his style of coaching, I'm merely pointing out that there are other possibilities. I also concede that it's very unlikely that Kosar would be Ben's QB coach if the option were available. If Kosar wanted to be a QB coach, he likely would be. His non-NFL football life is directed in other venues.

You just choose to discount it based on your facts. Life is about more than just cold hard facts. If you ignore all possibilites for your facts, you ignore opportunities. It's a fact that Ben has a QB coach. It's also a fact that Bernie Kosar was a very intelligent QB who could out-gameplan his own OC. Do you ignore those facts too just because Ben has a QB coach? What if the QB coach gets a better job offer and takes it next year? Then what? I know, it's a what if game, which is a pointless exercise, but let's say the job opening occurs. If Kosar was an option, do you completely discount a guy who knows football and knows the QB position?

How much NFL QB experience does the current QB coach have? How successful was he in the NFL? What style of player was he when/if he played? What "era" did he play in? I admit that I don't know your entire coaching staff, nor do I know their experiences. But I somehow doubt your QB coach was half as successful a QB as Ben is. If that's true, then how is he teaching Ben anything?

I mean if it's rediculous that Bernie could teach Ben anything based on different play styles and eras, then it's rediculous that any non-scrambling QB who hasn't played in the last 5-10 years could teach Ben anything. It would also (by your supposed logic) that anybody who did not play the QB position could team Ben anything about the position, because they wouldn't have any experience. Seems a bit odd how you ask me to quit diverting from the facts when your logic (which is supposed to be fact based) is so flawed.

I'm just saying.

revefsreleets
07-16-2008, 11:25 AM
His name is Kenny Anderson. Played a few years in Cincy...had a little success I think. Passed for almost 33,000 yards in his career. Has a few years coaching experience, a few years as an OC.

There's an old adage about thinking before you speak. It's also applicable to posting on message boards. But keep it up...this is fun watching you continually inserting your foot and digging deeper holes.

tony hipchest
07-16-2008, 11:36 AM
How much NFL QB experience does the current QB coach have? How successful was he in the NFL? What style of player was he when/if he played? What "era" did he play in? I admit that I don't know your entire coaching staff, nor do I know their experiences. But I somehow doubt your QB coach was half as successful a QB as Ben is. If that's true, then how is he teaching Ben anything?

.bens qb coach is listed as the most underrated qb ever. you can read up on him in the 1st post in this thread.

#1- Ken Anderson (he was known to be pretty good)

xfl2001fan
07-16-2008, 11:53 AM
bens qb coach is listed as the most underrated qb ever. you can read up on him in the 1st post in this thread.

#1- Ken Anderson (he was known to be pretty good)

Thank you for your response.

Personally, I'll learn from anyone who will teach.

If you're a Steeler fan, then it's a good thing for Ben that he's got such a gifted guy teaching him. I'm sure he's learned a lot from a guy who played a different style of football and in a different era.