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RoethlisBURGHer
07-13-2008, 02:53 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AtGB2tMq31uW3ey8m.4Elk5DubYF?slug=afcnor thcouldproduceasub&prov=tsn&type=lgns


One of the most compelling arguments against expanding the NFL playoffs from 12 teams is that having 14 or 16 teams in the postseason could result in a sub-.500 squad qualifying for the Super Bowl tournament.

There’s a chance, however, that it could happen in 2008—under the current system.

Each of the AFC North teams—Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns and Pittsburgh Steelers—will play each of the teams of the AFC South, which sent three teams (Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars and Tennessee Titans) to the 2007 playoffs. And each of the AFC North teams will play all the teams of the NFC East, which sent three teams (Dallas Cowboys, Washington Redskins and New York Giants) to the playoffs last season as well.

That’s half the entire schedule—and emerging from those eight games with a 4-4 record figures to be the best outcome possible for any of the AFC North teams.

The question then becomes whether any of the AFC North teams can dominate in the home-and-home round-robin portion of the schedule. Last year, it was a 5-1 division mark that, coupled with a mediocre 5-5 record in their other 10 games, allowed the Steelers to edge out the Browns via a tiebreaker.

This year, it’s anyone’s guess as to whether any one team can do better than 3-3 in the six divisional games.

It’s more interesting because even the supposedly good teams in the AFC North have flaws and the supposedly bad teams have potential.

The Browns are the trendy pick to win the AFC North, but the expectations and pressure could make it difficult for Cleveland to improve on last year’s “close but no dog bone” effort. The Browns start the season with a game against the Cowboys and then one each against the AFC North rivals.

We’ll know by October whether the Browns can succeed while waving the flag of front-runner.

The Steelers won’t give up their title quietly, but they haven’t done much in the offseason to improve. Their offensive line is going to be a major problem. And if the Steelers can’t score or win the field position tug of war, more stress will be placed on an aging defense.

On the surface, the Bengals seem to be in disarray. However, if new coordinator Mike Zimmer gets control of a porous defense, the team could be far more competitive in ‘08. If the Bengals get off to a quick start in September—minimizing the chances of a Chad Johnson meltdown—they could keep things close in the division.

Then there are the Ravens. With low expectations and a high likelihood of being overlooked by opponents, the team with an energetic and respected new coach, John Harbaugh, could stir things up. Just two seasons ago, Baltimore was 13-3. Sure, the roster has undergone some changes, but there’s enough left for the Ravens to be competitive.

The kicker in the AFC North could be the two remaining games on the schedule:

• The Steelers, by virtue of winning the division, will play the Patriots (16-0 last year) and Chargers (11-5). Ouch.
• The Browns get the Bills (7-9) and Broncos (7-9).
• The Bengals play the Jets (4-12) and Chiefs (4-12).
• And the Ravens face the Dolphins (1-15) and Raiders (4-12).

Whether the Steelers, Browns, Bengals or Ravens can get to .500 comes back to those eight games against the AFC South and NFC East. A uniform failure by the AFC North’s squads in those eight games could lead to the first 7-9 division winner in league history. And if the AFC North champion finishes 8-8, it’ll be only the second time that a .500 team has won a division. (It happened in 1985, when the Browns won the old AFC Central.)

Regardless of who wins the division, don’t expect to see double-digit wins. And, for the three runners-up, don’t be surprised to see each have double-digit losses.

I seriously don't think that this division's champion won't be any worse than 9-7.

I think the Steelers can sweep the Bengals and Ravens at at worst split with Cleveland. That's 5 wins right there. I beleive we can beat the Redskins, Tennessee, and Philadelphia. That's 8 wins right there to put us at .500. We stomp the Texans in the opener so that' 9 wins, above .500.

I also don't expect us to lose all of the following games: @ Jax, Dallas, @ new England, NY Giants, San Diego.

So saying not to expect a double-digit win team out of this conference is bull, IMHO.

SteelersJW
07-13-2008, 03:16 PM
I agree, we'll definately finish over .500 if we're going to win the division. We'll sweep both the Bengals and Ravens and we'll have tough games against the Browns, so we have it much easier than most teams within the division.

I don't see us losing to any NFC team except mabye for Dallas. Also, our time has come to get revenge on Jacksonville.The remaining to games against New England and San Diego will be challenging but if we beat one of them I'd be very happy.

Every year I look at the schedule and I think that we'll win all 16 games. The only year it almost happened was 2004. I guess I should stop being so optimistic and just see what happens.

The Duke
07-13-2008, 03:16 PM
:blah:

steelers will win the division with 10+ wins

Atlanta Dan
07-13-2008, 03:21 PM
Steelers need to go at least 4-2 in the division to cover for a tougher out of division schedule. I think the Ravens are going to be horrible and who knows what is going on with the Bengals, so 4-2 in the division certainly should be doable.

The early season Sunday night game in Cleveland will be huge in terms of setting the tone for who is the team to beat in the AFC North.

slashsteel
07-13-2008, 03:49 PM
I am thinking 10 and 6 with anything more, being icing on the cake as the saying goes.....................

fansince'76
07-13-2008, 03:50 PM
AFC North could produce sub-.500 Champion

So could the NFC West. And NFC South, for that matter. Next. :coffee:

KeiselPower99
07-13-2008, 04:23 PM
10-6 will win the Division and that will be us. And I actually think Cincy will finish second with a 7-9 record. If anything the Cleveland Indians collapse this year should remind Browns fans every year is differant.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-13-2008, 04:34 PM
I want to know where it is written that teams who had a winning season and made the playoffs last year (Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Dallas Cowboys, Washington Redskins and New York Giants) are unbeatable by other teams who had a winning season and made the playoffs i.e. our Steelers! F@*! the schedule and all the ominous drums that are beating sounding our teams demise! All the "experts" can kiss my arse! These are the same douchebags who if you had listened to them, you wouldn't have seen marsha brady get squashed in the SB!

I for one am looking forward to this so called "hardest schedule"! I think it will keep this team from becoming complacent! Look what happened last year against the jets and cardinals! Two teams the Steelers should have beat!

BRING ON THE LEAGUES TOUGHEST SCHEDULE!!! :tt03:

fansince'76
07-13-2008, 04:45 PM
I want to know where it is written that teams who had a winning season and made the playoffs last year (Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Dallas Cowboys, Washington Redskins and New York Giants) are unbeatable by other teams who had a winning season and made the playoffs i.e. our Steelers!

It's written in the same article that predicts the Steelers to "have trouble scoring," discounting the fact that the Steelers scored more points last season (393) than any season since 1995 (407). Consider the source (Florio, who's an idiot anyway).

CantStop85
07-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Any team could win the AFC North next season if things fall in place for them.

The Steelers probably look like the most complete team on paper, but they also have the toughest schedule, especially down the stretch. Their o-line would probably be the biggest area of concern.

If Cleveland's offense can be as productive as last season, they'll be right there. The big question is their defense, specifically their thin secondary.

The Bengals can certainly score with anybody and a healthy backfield certainly couldn't hurt, their biggest question will also be on defense, specifically their pass rush.

Baltimore has been counted out by everybody this off-season, but if they can get some consistent play out of their QB, be it Flacco, Smith or Boller, their defense will be good enough to keep them in games. Plus, they probably have the weakest schedule.

Point is, right now anyone has a chance. We'll see what happens come September. I do think 9, 10 wins could take the division this year.

missedgehead
07-13-2008, 05:02 PM
IMO, I think we will go 9-7. JMO.

lilyoder6
07-13-2008, 05:18 PM
i think the steelers def need to win 4/5 division games to be safe.. since it will give us the tie-breaker if there is one again.. i think the nfc east will be harder than the afc south.. the texans and titans are good but not that good yet... and the nfc east imo all 4 teams are a playoff team and will be fun watching those games

Mosca
07-13-2008, 05:38 PM
Typical off season :blah::blah::blah:. Some teams get better, some teams get worse. Some teams find themselves, other teams on the verge of finding themselves fall apart. Some guys get old all at once; some guys come out of nowhere to play in the Pro Bowl. Some guys blow out a knee in training camp and never play again.

It's why they play the games, instead of averaging all the predictions or setting up Madden '08 to play 15 games every Sunday.

Here's a prediction: The winner of the AFC EAST will go 8-8. Yep; Parcells ignites the Fish, the Jets finally live up to their hopes (go, Alan Faneca!), and the Bills are coming around. The Pats won't be able to start the season with 6 wins on the chalkboard against division foes, like they have for the past 8 years.

It's all crap. If this stuff could be predicted, we wouldn't care enough to watch it.

The Duke
07-13-2008, 06:27 PM
Any team could win the AFC North next season if things fall in place for them.


except the bengals of course :flap:

Typical off season :blah::blah::blah:. Some teams get better, some teams get worse. Some teams find themselves, other teams on the verge of finding themselves fall apart. Some guys get old all at once; some guys come out of nowhere to play in the Pro Bowl. Some guys blow out a knee in training camp and never play again.


very well said :thumbsup:

just last year- james harrison improved the steelers defense, shaun alexander left the hawks without a running game, orlando pace injury literally destroyed the rams offsensive line, and the browns came as a surprise to the whole league

anything can happen

dolphins to the superbowl! lol

moedap
07-13-2008, 08:41 PM
Besides the defensive line our D is getting younger not older.

Texans winnable
@Eagles tough
@Jaguars tough
Giants winnable
@Redskins winnable
Colts tough
@Patriots tough
Cowboys tough
@Titans winnable

The talent on the roster for our Steelers is the best looking roster on paper we have had in quite some time(OL aside). We are going to surprise some teams.

CantStop85
07-13-2008, 10:36 PM
2005 AFC North Champions: Cincinnati Bengals
2006 AFC North Champions: Baltimore Ravens
2007 AFC North Champions: Pittsburgh Steelers

The pattern would seem to point to the Browns winning this year lol...I guess we'll see. :flap:

steelreserve
07-13-2008, 11:14 PM
OMG WE HAVE 2 PLAY THE COLTS!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

Seriously, I cannot believe how bad the annual pole-polishing rite of preseason predictions has become. They act as if nobody with a name other than Brady or Manning is even capable of winning a game.

9-5
07-13-2008, 11:31 PM
Most complete team? Yes
Best team? No
Browns have more talent on offense, and a young defense that will only get better as the season goes on. Especially with the improved D-Line, a pass rush always makes average DB's look above average.

However, it won't be easy. Until we beat you, we can't win the Norse. The Cowboys, Giants and Patriots aren't slouches either. Should be a exciting year. I'm looking foward to it.

tony hipchest
07-13-2008, 11:57 PM
Most complete team? Yes
Best team? No
Browns have more talent on offense, and a young defense that will only get better as the season goes on. .

:bs:

confer with bunglefans much?

Preacher
07-14-2008, 12:47 AM
2005 AFC North Champions: Cincinnati Bengals
2006 AFC North Champions: Baltimore Ravens
2007 AFC North Champions: Pittsburgh Steelers

The pattern would seem to point to the Browns winning this year lol...I guess we'll see. :flap:

Let's see... expand that a bit to see a real pattern.

2001 Steelers AFCN Champs
2002 Steelers AFCN Champs
2003 Bad year
2004 Steelers AFCN Champs
2005 Steelers SB champs... beat AFCN Champs on road to SB.
2006 Bad year.
2007 Steelers AFCN Champs
2008-- Seems we should be the champs again.. and if not.. then we are in second as a wildcard, and win the SB. Either one works for me.

I just LOVE patterns!

paw-n-maul-u
07-14-2008, 02:02 AM
No way the steelers get in as a Wild Card. I think it's either AFC North champs or bust. Ravens Bengals and browns also have top 10 strength of schedule just like steelers. This division, if anything, is going to be battle tested. But most likely beat up.

Steelman16
07-14-2008, 02:03 AM
Yeah, patterns mean diddly-squat in the NFL.

Every division in the league could have a possible sub-.500 champion. NFC West anyone? Even the AFC East!

Gosh, some folks just don't get it. I guess I need to go teach Florio the finer aspects of NFL Football? :noidea:

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 09:41 AM
Most complete team? Yes
Best team? No
Browns have more talent on offense, and a young defense that will only get better as the season goes on. Especially with the improved D-Line, a pass rush always makes average DB's look above average.


Comedy gold, Jerry! More talent? Where? At QB? No. WR? No. RB? No. TE? Maybe, but I'd rather have Miller blocking. OL? Yes, if the Browns can recreate the magic from last year.

And your assessment of the defense is overly optimistic. You have one good CB, and a bunch of crap after that. The Browns are going to get lit up like a Christmas tree in nickel and dime packages.

But you are, after all, a Browns fan, and this is your time to shine...hope springs eternal every summer and early Fall, and you're going to the Super Bowl every year, so enjoy the delusion while you can. I live amongst you and always appreciate this time of year for what it is...

fansince'76
07-14-2008, 09:57 AM
And your assessment of the defense is overly optimistic. You have one good CB, and a bunch of crap after that. The Browns are going to get lit up like a Christmas tree in nickel and dime packages.

Not to mention a DL with a history of motivational and weight issues who never saw an all-you-can-eat buffet he could resist....

Michael Keller
07-14-2008, 10:03 AM
Steeler fans have many reasons to be hopeful;

1-Tomlin and his staff will coach the team better by virtue of one year of valiable experience.

2-Our defense should be better -New blood and quickness at linebacker and a healthy Troy and I personally sense that Ike is going to have a great season. Smith back in the lineup is high.

3-Our offensive line MAY BE BETTER. The addition of a bigger cente in Hartwig shold help

4-Our back field is simply loaded with so many more weapons.

5-IF Sweed develops quickly the Steelers receving corp will be among the very best.

6-#1 REASON FOR HOPE IS BIG BEN.

I believe 10 wins will win the division easily and that is well within our reach. The key is to stay healthy and finish strong down the stretch. This team has the ability to put a ton of points on the board and not have to worry about our opponents scoring the final go ahead points in the last two mins.

The_WARDen
07-14-2008, 10:05 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AtGB2tMq31uW3ey8m.4Elk5DubYF?slug=afcnor thcouldproduceasub&prov=tsn&type=lgns



I seriously don't think that this division's champion won't be any worse than 9-7.

I think the Steelers can sweep the Bengals and Ravens at at worst split with Cleveland. That's 5 wins right there. I beleive we can beat the Redskins, Tennessee, and Philadelphia. That's 8 wins right there to put us at .500. We stomp the Texans in the opener so that' 9 wins, above .500.

I also don't expect us to lose all of the following games: @ Jax, Dallas, @ new England, NY Giants, San Diego.

So saying not to expect a double-digit win team out of this conference is bull, IMHO.


I agree but there is the stupidity factor for this team that you can't ignore... No one saw the losses to Arizona and the Jets last year either...

The_WARDen
07-14-2008, 10:07 AM
Yeah, patterns mean diddly-squat in the NFL.

Every division in the league could have a possible sub-.500 champion. NFC West anyone? Even the AFC East!

Gosh, some folks just don't get it. I guess I need to go teach Florio the finer aspects of NFL Football? :noidea:

I see your point but I do not think there's any way in h*ll that the Patriots can finish sub-500 with their pop-warner schedule.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 10:12 AM
The REALLY nice part about playing a brutal schedule? The Steelers played suck ass football against bad teams last year, but seemed to step it up against better competition. Well, there really aren't that many sucky teams that we play this year, so I'm hoping they are up and playing good football every week.

CanadianSteel
07-14-2008, 10:18 AM
I am looking forward to the schedule this year as almost every game is a great match up. I agree that 10-6 or maybe 9-7 might win the division but it will be a battle tested record heading into the play-offs where anything is possible.

vasteeler
07-14-2008, 11:06 AM
Most complete team? Yes
Best team? No
Browns have more talent on offense, and a young defense that will only get better as the season goes on. Especially with the improved D-Line, a pass rush always makes average DB's look above average.

However, it won't be easy. Until we beat you, we can't win the Norse. The Cowboys, Giants and Patriots aren't slouches either. Should be a exciting year. I'm looking foward to it.

browns have more talent on offense????
your kidding?..........right?

Lord Stiller
07-14-2008, 11:12 AM
I could see an 8-8 winning the division but i doubt there will ever be a sub .500 div. champ.

If the Steelers finish 8-8 and win the division, that's fine by me. We still get a home playoff game and head into the playoffs battle tested (just hopefully not too beat up)

steelreserve
07-14-2008, 11:36 AM
I could see an 8-8 winning the division but i doubt there will ever be a sub .500 div. champ.

You obviously haven't been subjected to the horror that is the NFC West on a regular basis. It could've happened there at any point in the last several years. Unfortunately, either the Rams or Seahawks were always just good enough to keep the division from being a complete joke (but never both at the same time).

Now, seeing that happen in the AFC North is another matter entirely. Unlike the NFC West, most of the teams in our division aren't run by complete retards. So you're pretty much guaranteed that at least one or two of them are going to have their sh*t together at any given time.

So no, nobody's going to win the division with a sub-.500 record, and the AFC North is about the stupidest pick you could make for that to happen.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 11:36 AM
browns have more talent on offense????
your kidding?..........right?

No, he's not. They really believe that in Cleveland (or they at least think that if they THINK it enough, it could come true).

Cleveland really is the "Never Never Land" of sports towns. Peter Pan can fly, there are magical gay little pixies that wear Brown and Orange that as team mascot and the Browns are going to win the Super Bowl next year every year.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-14-2008, 11:41 AM
Most complete team? Yes
Best team? No
Browns have more talent on offense

Lets start with that statement....

The Browns almost led the league in penalties....they have a QB who ranked in the bottom half of the leage in passer rating and ranked #28 in the league in completion percentage.

a pass rush always makes average DB's look above average

yep....and an average QB will make our Pass rush look even better.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 11:56 AM
Lets start with that statement....

The Browns almost led the league in penalties....they have a QB who ranked in the bottom half of the leage in passer rating and ranked #28 in the league in completion percentage.



yep....and an average QB will make our Pass rush look even better.

After the mystery was solved and teams had film on Anderson, his numbers started looking very Kordell Stewart like. He was in the 60's in QB rating in December. I think he's riding pine by October, and becomes a career backup.

missedgehead
07-14-2008, 12:06 PM
Cleveland win the division? LOL Especially since I am hearing about Jerivicious' knee problems also now. Sorry to hear he is hurt though. Good WR. A major key to our winning the division is Ben and keeping him healthy. He has yet to play a complete season.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 01:19 PM
No, he's not. They really believe that in Cleveland (or they at least think that if they THINK it enough, it could come true).

Cleveland really is the "Never Never Land" of sports towns. Peter Pan can fly, there are magical gay little pixies that wear Brown and Orange that as team mascot and the Browns are going to win the Super Bowl next year every year.


Oh my God..:doh:

So not having a decent running back, one of the best o-lines in the game right and having two pro bowl caliber recievers don't give you a better offense than one with a below average o-line, decent recievers, Two good RB's and Pro Bowl QB. Uh...I'd say its almost even if not better.

Honestly..Even with DA at the helm, I'd take the Browns O in a heartbeat because simply thats how you build a team. Not through flash in the pan Tedd Ginn players but through the line.

It all starts up front gentleman. Go on and on about how great Sweed and Mendenhall are. They really can't do all that much without a decent o-line. Take a look at any Super Bowl team or at any Team that has made it anywhere in football. and it all starts up front. Unless you have the next coming of Barry Sanders it really doesn't help the offense to have a bad group of offensive linemen. I've witnessed this time and time again, why do you think the Butch/palmer era was unable to beat anyone during that era?

And for the Record I don't believe the Browns reach the Super Bowl this season. New England, Indy, SD and Jax are very very good.

fansince'76
07-14-2008, 01:27 PM
Oh my God..:doh:

So not having a decent running back, one of the best o-lines in the game right and having two pro bowl caliber recievers don't give you a better offense than one with a below average o-line, decent recievers, Two good RB's and Pro Bowl QB. Uh...I'd say its almost even if not better.

Honestly..Even with DA at the helm, I'd take the Browns O in a heartbeat because simply thats how you build a team. Not through flash in the pan Tedd Ginn players but through the line.

Why'd we sweep you last year (again), then? :coffee:

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 01:31 PM
Why'd we sweep you last year (again), then? :coffee:

Charlie Frye had plenty of time..but his decision making sucked..Hence the blowout. If you watched any of the film..the O-line was giving him plenty of time to throw the ball away..but he just kept choking it away.

DA couldn't get it together and our Defense couldn't get any pressure what so ever on Ben...Hence why Phil splurged and got two of the best d-linemen in the game. Mind you I truly believe the secound game wasn't so much you guys beating us as much as us beating ourselves.

fansince'76
07-14-2008, 01:36 PM
Mind you I truly believe the secound game wasn't so much you guys beating us as much as us beating ourselves.

Sorry, beg to differ - 401 offensive yards for us as opposed to 163 offensive yards for you. The only reason we didn't blow you out in the second game was 200+ KR yards and a TD by Cribbs.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Jamal Lewis is a decent RB, yes, but the Steelers backfield is much, much better in terms of depth and talent. That one isn't even close.

2 Pro Bowl WR's? There's Edwards and who? I mean, seriously, who? Ward is still a physical force to be dealt with, and Santo is slated to have a break-out year. I say Santo = Edwards, and Ward > any other Browns WR. So advantage Steelers. QB is no comparison. TE is equal given that Winslow only blocks when he feels like it. OL WAS an advantage last year, but the Browns are one or two injuries from disaster, and it's yet to be determined if our OL is bad two years in a row. I, for one, can't remember that EVER happening.

But this is fun...EVERY year is going to be the Browns year, and this is clearly no exception. I LOVE this time of year almost as much as I love the time (usually early October) when the giant "SIGH" is heard in NEO when the Browns faithful realize once again that, no, Virginia, there really ISN'T a Santa Claus, and the Browns ain't doin' shit this year either.

tony hipchest
07-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Go on and on about how great Sweed and Mendenhall are. They really can't do all that much without a decent o-line. Take a look at any Super Bowl team or at any Team that has made it anywhere in football. and it all starts up front.

....a bad group of offensive linemen. .

by super bowl team, do you mean a team like the 2005 steelers? ok. lets take a look at them and their bad group of offensive linemen.

max starks
marvell smith (pro bowler)
kendall simmons

essex and kemo also have rings.

are you saying our line has never made it anywhere in football? as opposed to your teams great line, right? (including the guy who allowed carson palmers knee to be shredded)

:busted:

rbryan
07-14-2008, 01:42 PM
Brownies always look awsome........in July.....Remember how good they were gonna be when Couch was drafted?? How about Winslow?Aquired LeCharles Bentley?? I can go on and on. Maybe wait till you win a few games....never mind.

The odds of probability are in your favor. Come talk to me when you win something, I'll give ya credit then. In the mean time you could set a new trend in Cleveland by acting like you been there before instead of getting all excited for nothing in July..

CantStop85
07-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Better offense? I love speculation!

Ben Roethlisberger > Derek Anderson
Willie Parker > Jamal Lewis
Hines Ward/Santonio Holmes/Limas Sweed/Nate Washington = Braylon Edwards/Donte Stallworth/Joe Jurevicius/Josh Cribbs
Kellen Winslow>Heath Miller
Browns O-Line>Steelers O-Line

The Steelers' QB and RB are far and away better than the Browns'. I think the receiving corps are a wash overall, Braylon's better than Santonio, Hines is better than Donte, etc. Kellen Winslow is more explosive than Heath Miller. And I would say the Browns' O-Line is substantially better than the Steelers'.

I give the Steelers a slight edge because of the QB and RB position, but you could make a case for the Browns based on the O-Line.

RoethlisBURGHer
07-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Better offense? I love speculation!

Ben Roethlisberger > Derek Anderson
Willie Parker > Jamal Lewis
Hines Ward/Santonio Holmes/Limas Sweed/Nate Washington = Braylon Edwards/Donte Stallworth/Joe Jurevicius/Josh Cribbs
Kellen Winslow>Heath Miller
Browns O-Line>Steelers O-Line

The Steelers' QB and RB are far and away better than the Browns'. I think the receiving corps are a wash overall, Braylon's better than Santonio, Hines is better than Donte, etc. Kellen Winslow is more explosive than Heath Miller. And I would say the Browns' O-Line is substantially better than the Steelers'.

I give the Steelers a slight edge because of the QB and RB position, but you could make a case for the Browns based on the O-Line.

Very good analysis CS85.

I'd say Miller and Winslow are close though. Winslow is used as a WR, while Miller can catch the ball and has enough speed to be a threat...plus he's an excellent blocker in the run game. But as a pure athlete, Winslow is better.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 03:28 PM
Brownies always look awsome........in July.....Remember how good they were gonna be when Couch was drafted?? How about Winslow?Aquired LeCharles Bentley?? I can go on and on. Maybe wait till you win a few games....never mind.

The odds of probability are in your favor. Come talk to me when you win something, I'll give ya credit then. In the mean time you could set a new trend in Cleveland by acting like you been there before instead of getting all excited for nothing in July..

in ''99 we were an expansion team..only a moron would think we would have a shot at the Super Bowl. :flap:

in '04..no offensive line..I kept thinking we had no shot at anything..and Honestly I HATED the move of drafting Winslow..guy seemed like an arrogant punk who was going to be under the definition of bust.

Lord knows it wasn't our fault that LCB came out and had a freak incident..but we recovered and got a decent guy to fill in for him.

same with any year besides this year and last year..and hell even last year was a shock..

My pick last year was for us to go 7-9, with BQ taking over in the second half.

My pick this year..I donno yet...I'm optimistic, but pessimistic..I do think we're through "re-building" though. :P

and going 10-6 and coming within a sniff of the playoffs is not considered "winning some games?" :flap:

CantStop85
07-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Very good analysis CS85.

I'd say Miller and Winslow are close though. Winslow is used as a WR, while Miller can catch the ball and has enough speed to be a threat...plus he's an excellent blocker in the run game. But as a pure athlete, Winslow is better.

Yeah, Heath Miller's definitely the better blocker, I just put Winslow ahead of him because it's really rare to find a TE with his receiving skills. Heath's not a bad receiving option either, though.

The largest disparities between the two offenses are at QB, RB, and on the offensive line.

lilyoder6
07-14-2008, 04:47 PM
well winslow is still ignorant.. depending on how good sweed comes out the steelers core is better and cribbs only shows up on st

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 05:14 PM
well winslow is still ignorant.. depending on how good sweed comes out the steelers core is better and cribbs only shows up on st

Cribbs is on special teams because we really didn't need him at WR. When he was in..it was pretty sweet to see him run a reverse in the Arizona and Jets game..but aside from that he was specifically used as a Special teams player, but rumor has it he may be used more and more. As a Eric"Metcalf up the Middle" type of player.

tony hipchest
07-14-2008, 05:16 PM
seriously... i cant get over this. i'd like to discuss it some more


Oh my God..:doh:

...

below average o-line,

...

It all starts up front gentleman. Go on and on about how great Sweed and Mendenhall are. They really can't do all that much without a decent o-line.

...

a bad group of offensive linemen.

...

why do you think the Butch/palmer era was unable to beat anyone .help me out here, my peeps. are the steelers really being compared to the butch/palmer era in cleveland? :confused:

if mendenhall and sweed cant do all that much with our shabby expansion brownesque line, how do we explain parker leading the league in rushing through the 1st 15 weeks of the season last year? what about ben shattering bradshaws td record? 2nd to brady in the league in passer rating? near the top in yards per attempt? santonio leading all wr's in yards per catch?

you cant run the ball like that or consistantly chuck the ball deep without some linemen who are half capable of holding a block for more than 2 seconds. its not like the steelers run a dink and dunk, west coast offense (or have barry sanders).

for real, was a team that made the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years (compiling a sb win, a 2 division titles, and a 15-1 regular season record with the likes of kendrick vincent and oliver ross stepping in) really just compared with the expansion browns???? :dang:

sure we are downgraded at LG but we are upgraded at C with hartwig, and LT with a healthy marvel smith. i think some teams are gonna feel suckerpunched when they come in thinking they can manhandle the steelers sucky line this year. i cant wait.

i think we'd be pretty formidable w/o the likes of sweed, mendenhall, or spaeth being there to contribute.

what a great time to be a steelerfan AND have a team with no expectations who are under the radar.

CantStop85
07-14-2008, 05:22 PM
what a great time to be a steelerfan AND have a team with no expectations who are under the radar.

Maybe to a few fans and media outlets, but I'm sure no one in the AFC North is overlooking the Steelers.

revefsreleets
07-14-2008, 07:24 PM
No way would any reasonable fan who knows the game say that Braylon Edwards > Santo Holmes. Last year? Sure. But that was last year. This is this year. Edwards had the benefit of all that "unknowness" about Anderson, and he's the Browns #1 while Santo was #2. This is Santo's year, and he'll (provided he stays healthy, which is always a concern at WR) have better numbers than Braylon did last year or this. Bank it (and I have no problem throwing out stuff like this and standing by it).

I'm still loving the fact that even 75% of Steelers fans are doubting the OL (and make it a solid 99.99% of opponents fans), although, like I said earlier, I can't remember a single time ever when they had a sucky OL two years in a row.

paw-n-maul-u
07-14-2008, 07:46 PM
No way would any reasonable fan who knows the game say that Braylon Edwards > Santo Holmes. Last year? Sure. But that was last year. This is this year. Edwards had the benefit of all that "unknowness" about Anderson, and he's the Browns #1 while Santo was #2. This is Santo's year, and he'll (provided he stays healthy, which is always a concern at WR) have better numbers than Braylon did last year or this. Bank it (and I have no problem throwing out stuff like this and standing by it).

I'm still loving the fact that even 75% of Steelers fans are doubting the OL (and make it a solid 99.99% of opponents fans), although, like I said earlier, I can't remember a single time ever when they had a sucky OL two years in a row.

What?

Bold #1- I would trade santonio holmes for braylon edwards right now. where do I sign?
Ok, joking a little. But if I were in a fantasy league? Ha, in a freaking heartbeat, for whatever that is worth.

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about #'s wise. The steelers had the THIRD MOST rushing attempts last year. Only behind Tenn. and Jax. (others in the top ten were oakland, minny, ...etc. teams like that, carousel running back committee's)

the steelers also were SECOND TO LAST in pass attempts. ... and we JUST drafted a first round running back. .... really? you honestly think Holmes is going to PRODUCE more than Edwards? ... so unrealistic.

Bold #2- You must not be that old, the last time the steelers had a sucky o-line 2 years in a row? ... how about the past 2? BUMP

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 07:50 PM
No way would any reasonable fan who knows the game say that Braylon Edwards > Santo Holmes. Last year? Sure. But that was last year. This is this year. Edwards had the benefit of all that "unknowness" about Anderson, and he's the Browns #1 while Santo was #2. This is Santo's year, and he'll (provided he stays healthy, which is always a concern at WR) have better numbers than Braylon did last year or this. Bank it (and I have no problem throwing out stuff like this and standing by it).

I'm still loving the fact that even 75% of Steelers fans are doubting the OL (and make it a solid 99.99% of opponents fans), although, like I said earlier, I can't remember a single time ever when they had a sucky OL two years in a row.

LMAO!

Braylons a damn good reciever the only things that will cut down his numbers are Donte, KWII and JJ. Meanwhile..isn't Santo second banana behind Hines and perhaps Sweed this year?

Braylon is a franchise player...Santonio is a plug and play type of guy. Admit it you could find another receiver quite who's easily like him.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 07:52 PM
What?

Bold #1- I would trade santonio holmes for braylon edwards right now. where do I sign?
Ok, joking a little. But if I were in a fantasy league? Ha, in a freaking heartbeat, for whatever that is worth.

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about #'s wise. The steelers had the THIRD MOST rushing attempts last year. Only behind Tenn. and Jax. (others in the top ten were oakland, minny, ...etc. teams like that, carousel running back committee's)

the steelers also were SECOND TO LAST in pass attempts. ... and we JUST drafted a first round running back. .... really? you honestly think Holmes is going to PRODUCE more than Edwards? ... so unrealistic.

Bold #2- You must not be that old, the last time the steelers had a sucky o-line 2 years in a row? ... how about the past 2? BUMP

Perhaps the offensive line isn't able to create a good enough running game and Ben is forced to throw it more? Not saying its going to happen, but its not outside the realm of possibility.

Again..If the O-line played like it did last year and you add the fact that the Defenses you play this year are so much better. I'd be a bit worried about Roethlisberger keeping healthy.

To magically hope and pray that those guys grow into an offensive line over night is wishful thinking..but its not going to happen. You guys are going to have to do it next year or find yourself picking up a new QB in 2-3 years.

The Duke
07-14-2008, 07:56 PM
Meanwhile..isn't Santo second banana behind Hines and perhaps Sweed this year?


....no


Braylon is a franchise player...Santonio is a plug and play type of guy. Admit it you could find another receiver quite who's easily like him.

yeah, worked great for the lions :thumbsup:

while I agree edwards is above santo, he is no way a "plug and play type of guy". put him in a team like the pats packers or colts and his numbers would be near braylon's.

santo's gonna become a star, I guarantee it, even if the steelers run the ball more than pass

Texasteel
07-14-2008, 07:59 PM
If you compare Edwards rookie year with Holmes rookie year, I beleave I would take Holmes. I don't really care what a fantasy league would do.

fansince'76
07-14-2008, 08:04 PM
To magically hope and pray that those guys grow into an offensive line over night is wishful thinking..but its not going to happen. You guys are going to have to do it next year or find yourself picking up a new QB in 2-3 years.

You guys will probably need to do that anyway regardless how well your OL plays considering your recent track record with QBs. I doubt Crotch Grabber's gonna be the answer.

tony hipchest
07-14-2008, 08:05 PM
Maybe to a few fans and media outlets, but I'm sure no one in the AFC North is overlooking the Steelers.while it is true that the bottom 2 teams in the division from the previous year always show up and give the steelers a game or 2, it is always the sexy, pre season favorites, or flavor of the week afc north teams, predicted to dethrone the steelers, who get c0cky and end up getting punched in the mouth.

take the 01 defending champ ravens.
or the ravens who were predicted to dethrone the patriots in 04.
or last years ravens.

how bout this years clowns?

and the bungles would never be so c0cky, and high on a few weeks of hype that one of their players would actually wipe their shoes with a sacred terrible towel, now would they?:tt03::tt02::tt:

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 08:09 PM
You guys will probably need to do that anyway regardless how well your OL plays considering your recent track record with QBs. I doubt Crotch Grabber's gonna be the answer.

lulz..its funny 'cuz every last one didn't have an offensive line. :P..'cept for Frye and DA..and DA was pretty damn good successful..

And use..Captain Super Cuts will be pretty damn good QB with KWII and Braylon as his weapons and one of the best offensive lines in football.

paw-n-maul-u
07-14-2008, 08:15 PM
Perhaps the offensive line isn't able to create a good enough running game and Ben is forced to throw it more? Not saying its going to happen, but its not outside the realm of possibility.

Again..If the O-line played like it did last year and you add the fact that the Defenses you play this year are so much better. I'd be a bit worried about Roethlisberger keeping healthy.

To magically hope and pray that those guys grow into an offensive line over night is wishful thinking..but its not going to happen. You guys are going to have to do it next year or find yourself picking up a new QB in 2-3 years.

Perhaps the sky will fall and pigs will fly is the day the steelers can't run the ball. And if ben does have to throw more?

I'll take the guy who threw 32 TD's, had the best YPA in the league, and WON A SB over a one year wonder who had a badass first part of the year, sucked the second half. and has never won a playoff game, or played in one for that matter. Anderson had a 99 QB rating through the first 8 games of the year
He had a 70 QB rating the rest of the year (including playoffs) ... dude he sucked so f*cking bad at the end of last year. He was the reason browns couldn't make that final push to make the playoffs. you can keep your second rate tony romo, because Ben is the tits and ass.

To magically hope and pray that a lazy fatass like Rogers, and an injury prone, and unproven williams-rogers combo for a different defensive system will work ...

to magically hope and pray that a secondary won't get picked apart ... that banks solely on only a second year player in eric wright ...

I think the worst part of being a browns fan is knowing that no matter how good you do in the regular season ... and EVEN IF by some miracle the brownies make the playoffs and the steelers dont ... that there is NO WAY that the browns can win the superbowl.

It won't happen.

Playoff experience on your team is few and far between. so the best you can hope for this year is a playoff "appearance" baaaahahahahaha, that is such a joke, because the steelers haven't "hoped" for a playoff "appearance" since the browns sold out.

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 08:18 PM
Wow...this one is tough. I'll say that Roethlisburger is your offenses biggest asset...and worst nightmare. Think about this, he was one of the most sacked players in the league last year. Part of that was the O-line, but part of it was that he would hold onto the ball too long. There comes a time where he's going to have to learn to throw it away or he'll continue to get pounded. He's athletic enough (now) to get away with it, but he's one bad knee injury away from being a guy who will bust or learn to throw the ball quicker. His escapability is awesome, but how many "athletic qbs" in the current era of football have a career worth bragging about?

One poster mentioned that the Browns O-line is an injury or two away from mediocre. The Steelers O-line doesn't have near the depth that the Browns do. I'd be concerened there.

I'll give you the better running back, but your offense was changed to reflect FWP's running abilities, just as ours has been changed to reflect the smash mouth style of Jamaal. Mendenhall may do decent as a sub, but I wouldn't want him to start, as protecting Ben is your key priority.

Don't buy into Limas Sweed. He has potential, but it (generally) takes receivers 3 years to shine in the NFL. He's not Randy Moss special, so I wouldn't expect much out of him this year.

What about your special teams? I'm not sure how you fare, but I don't recall your ST being very special (even excluding the second game where Cribbs went off.)

I'm not saying that the Browns don't have holes too, but I would like for you to really look at your team with a sense of realism. Until we beat you guys, the Browns don't have much to brag about. I'll give you that there. Easily.

I can admit that our D-line is still a question mark, because they've proven nothing on the field. However, I do feel cautious optimism that it will help.

I think our secondary will be OK if our D-line can tie up some blockers for our OL or generate their own pass rush. No pass-rush = swiss cheese pass defense. No tie up blockers = swiss cheese rush defense. It's a terrible thing to live that cycle over and over. I give credit to Phil for trying, but so far, he hasn't provided the D-line needed to run a defense the way that Blitzburgh does.

I think that the Browns will (again) contend for a division title and that 9-7 wins the division. I think that (despite a slightly easier schedule) the Browns will need to sweep the Steelers to win the division. Not something that can be done easily. Possible...yes. Then again, it was (barely) considered possible for the Giants to win the SB in the beginning of the season. We're in that possiblity range.

All-in-all, I am optimistic about the Browns chances, but our hopes rest far more on our D-line than they do on the arms of one of our QBs. Our offensive talent is good enough to make them look good, but our defense has a lot to prove in order to topple the Steelers.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 08:20 PM
Playoff experience on your team is few and far between. so the best you can hope for this year is a playoff "appearance" baaaahahahahaha, that is such a joke, because the steelers haven't "hoped" for a playoff "appearance" since the browns sold out.

You try having your team moved and starting over completely from scratch..but hell I guess we were able to build and rebuild ourselves into this position faster than the Steelers..Who went Thirty-Three years without even a sniff of the playoffs. :).

paw-n-maul-u
07-14-2008, 08:26 PM
You try having your team moved and starting over completely from scratch..but hell I guess we were able to build and rebuild ourselves into this position faster than the Steelers..Who went Thirty-Three years without even a sniff of the playoffs. :).

right ... when the NFL wasn't even the NFL. And please don't act like the browns have been "rebuilding" ever since they re-became the browns. Didnt you clowns blow a huge playoff game to the steelers a few years back? no doubt.

tony hipchest
07-14-2008, 08:29 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/chirpingcrickets.jpg.


beuller? beuller?

:huh: even one of the steelers perceived "weaknesses" must be pretty scary to the opponents teams fans.

Mosca
07-14-2008, 08:31 PM
You try having your team moved and starting over completely from scratch..but hell I guess we were able to build and rebuild ourselves into this position faster than the Steelers..Who went Thirty-Three years without even a sniff of the playoffs. :).

Yeah and calling me a female dog really gets your point across too. :chuckle:..it sounds like I angered you to be honest.

Overall, I think the Browns have gotten a lot more respect here than one might expect from a bitter rival. I think you guys have rose colored glasses regarding DA, but otherwise you have a decent team. And I wouldn't have ANY respect at all if you didn't defend your guys. But I look for DA to be on the bench by week 8, with BQ taking the snaps... and I think BQ is a product of the Charlie Weis Publicity Machine.

As a Steelers fan, it is impossible for me to think that my guys will do anything other than roll through the league. IMO we are better than we were last year.

Like I said, it's all :blah::blah::blah: right now. But it sure as hell is fun, with all the promise of a fresh season!

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 08:33 PM
right ... when the NFL wasn't even the NFL. And please don't act like the browns have been "rebuilding" ever since they re-became the browns. Didnt you clowns blow a huge playoff game to the steelers a few years back? no doubt.

Lulz..Read "False Start"..We've had to Re-build Three times to get it right..and We all know why The Browns blew that game and it sure as hell wasn't the terrific Quarterbacking of Tommy Maddox..rather the moronic calling of the Prevent Defense By Butch. Anyone with a half a brain knows that. I still hardly consider that even a real team..rather a team that was a quick fix because folks in Cleveland were restless with no real results.

Oh and those years don't count? Better call the NFL then and ask them to remove all those busts in the Hall of all those folks who didn't play football after 1972. Better tell the NFL to remove anything before the "Immaculate reception" in its record books and if I hear anyone telling me about the '64 Championship game they were at and saw the Browns win the championship, I should call them a liar.

tony hipchest
07-14-2008, 08:40 PM
welcome newb :drink: I'll say that Roethlisburger is your offenses biggest asset...and worst nightmare.

and here i thought ben grande was always the browns worst nightmare.

after all a 13-0 record in his 1st season, sb win in his 2nd, and breaking bradshaws td record in his 4th were all dream seasons for me...

(as a steelerfan :tt02:).

plus, im sure the brownies would trade winslows motorcycle accident for ben's anyday.

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 08:54 PM
LOL, touche. He's been tough on us, but since Kosar left, let's face it, you guys have completely dominated us. So it's not been just Ben. Since our return, most NFL teams have dominated us. (I'm a realistic fan too.)

But seriously, he needs to learn to make quicker reads, or he's going to get himself killed. His escapability is (IMO) second to none, but eventually that wears on a guy. If he learns to make quicker reads, he'll be the most dangerous QB in the league. Yup, more so than Peyton or Brady, because Big Ben can actually kill you with his legs too.

I'll give you props for that find in the draft.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 09:08 PM
LOL, touche. He's been tough on us, but since Kosar left, let's face it, you guys have completely dominated us. So it's not been just Ben. Since our return, most NFL teams have dominated us. (I'm a realistic fan too.)

But seriously, he needs to learn to make quicker reads, or he's going to get himself killed. His escapability is (IMO) second to none, but eventually that wears on a guy. If he learns to make quicker reads, he'll be the most dangerous QB in the league. Yup, more so than Peyton or Brady, because Big Ben can actually kill you with his legs too.

I'll give you props for that find in the draft.

You from Browns24/7? :)

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 09:42 PM
You from Browns24/7? :)

Aye, there's not likely to be many guys out there with the XFL2001FAN name, are there?

I'm a fan of football, so I'm interested in seeing what "the other side" has to say. I'll chime in with good football sense when I see a need for it (or am new to a site). I have ADHD, so I'll eventually get bored and move on! lol

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-14-2008, 09:48 PM
Aye, there's not likely to be many guys out there with the XFL2001FAN name, are there?

I'm a fan of football, so I'm interested in seeing what "the other side" has to say. I'll chime in with good football sense when I see a need for it (or am new to a site). I have ADHD, so I'll eventually get bored and move on! lol

I'm triple-s over there..Don't be afraid to post there..we welcome any and all Dawgs..and even a few Steelers fans..:flap:

xfl2001fan
07-14-2008, 09:52 PM
I'm triple-s over there..Don't be afraid to post there..we welcome any and all Dawgs..and even a few Steelers fans..:flap:

I put my voice in on occasion. You'll see a few of my posts in the Playground section. I also added a post to the Offense area (football 101 I think it is.)

I've chimed in on the Eric Parker section as well. However, I don't like to post about somethign just to say that I agree. Seems like it's wasting E-space.

Mosca
07-14-2008, 10:28 PM
With an exception made for CS85... you guys from the Browns know your football, unlike the Bengals fans who come in here, yell "F*** THE STEELERS!" and run out, bragging back to their forums about how they showed us.

Not that I'm going to start pulling for you guys or anything, but it's nice to talk football rather than shoot flames.

missedgehead
07-14-2008, 11:36 PM
LOL, touche. He's been tough on us, but since Kosar left, let's face it, you guys have completely dominated us. So it's not been just Ben. Since our return, most NFL teams have dominated us. (I'm a realistic fan too.)

But seriously, he needs to learn to make quicker reads, or he's going to get himself killed. His escapability is (IMO) second to none, but eventually that wears on a guy. If he learns to make quicker reads, he'll be the most dangerous QB in the league. Yup, more so than Peyton or Brady, because Big Ben can actually kill you with his legs too.

I'll give you props for that find in the draft.

I agree with this. I usually do NOT agree with Browns fans. LOL However, one of my biggest beefs with Roethlisberger and I love him to death is exactly what you pointed out here and in your earlier post: he holds on to the ball way too long due to the fact that he does not make a fast read ala Marino, Manning or Brady and he won't throw a ball away due to the fact that he is always trying to make a play. Sure, part of it is due to the O line, as I do not think they do a great job of pass protecting. Good run blocking as that is alot of the reason why Parker has been successful, etc. However, part of the reason Ben is one of the most sacked QBs is due to not only the OL but because he holds on to the ball too long and does not make quick reads. Needs to make quicker reads or like you said, one bad knee injury or his mobility that he depends on so much will be limited. He makes faster reads. Trust me, he WILL be the most dangerous QB in the league. Bar none.

tony hipchest
07-15-2008, 12:30 AM
But seriously, he needs to learn to make quicker reads, or he's going to get himself killed. His escapability is (IMO) second to none, but eventually that wears on a guy. If he learns to make quicker reads, he'll be the most dangerous QB in the league. Yup, more so than Peyton or Brady, because Big Ben can actually kill you with his legs too.

I'll give you props for that find in the draft.

ben is a huge guy with a long stride. he has a relaxed, calm dropback, as opposed to the phrenetic, "pitter patter" of the feet that manning or brady show. perhaps this can be coached out of him, but it could also be taking the "hitch out of his giddy-up".

either way the steelers like to use alot of play action and 5 step drops looking downfield first, and checking down to the shorter routes 2nd. ben is very adept at this, but sometimes those quick decisions take a while to develop, thanks to the plays being called.

the steelers offensive scheme has always seemed to be a conservative, conventional approach to the running game, and a high risk, high reward approach to the passing game. personally, i love it and am willing to take the good with the bad.

although its not a mainstay, i love ben in the shotgun, hurry up, no huddle offense.

either way, ben is still young and unpolished. the best is yet to come. that is scary.

last year, either ben made a below average line look decent... or a good line made ben look great.

either way, i will take it.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 08:19 AM
With an exception made for CS85... you guys from the Browns know your football, unlike the Bengals fans who come in here, yell "F*** THE STEELERS!" and run out, bragging back to their forums about how they showed us.

Not that I'm going to start pulling for you guys or anything, but it's nice to talk football rather than shoot flames.

Thank you! I,too, prefer football talk. Still don't like your team, but that's not your fault, lol.

As for CS85, who says he's an actual Browns fan? Maybe he's a Bengals fan (who really has nothing worth bragging about) so he instead props up the other division rival just to spite the Steelers. That's been my take anyways. LOL

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 08:26 AM
I agree with this. I usually do NOT agree with Browns fans.

How many fans (when dealing with rival teams fans) can keep a level head and form true-to-football assessments? I've seen many a guy on this site and on Browns247 who can't help but mouth off when dealing with someone from "off site".

I occasionally will shoot off at the mouth, but I do try to take an objective look at all teams. Even the hated "Stoolers". LOL It benefits me, because then when I watch the games, I can better assess who's playing well and who isn't.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 09:43 AM
How many fans (when dealing with rival teams fans) can keep a level head and form true-to-football assessments? I've seen many a guy on this site and on Browns247 who can't help but mouth off when dealing with someone from "off site".

I occasionally will shoot off at the mouth, but I do try to take an objective look at all teams. Even the hated "Stoolers". LOL It benefits me, because then when I watch the games, I can better assess who's playing well and who isn't.

Yup, questioning my fanhood because I KNOW Ben is a superior pocket passer (I've seen him play in person through college) is real level-headed of you.

Did you know, oh great guru of all things football that part of the reason Ben holds the ball is because of the offense he runs? Arians offense is predicated upon a ton of complicated crossing routes that take longer to develop. Arians clearly couldn't be expected to know that the OL was going to drop off so much from one year to next, so he was kind of stuck in midstream. Ben's "inability to check down" is garabge. In the SB year he did it plenty, but that was apples and oranges.

As for OL's, the Steelers have the best (or among the best) in the business year in and year out. I can't remember two years ina row where they weren't. Conversely, the Browns have had a good OL once in tha last 9 years. I'm sticking with the team that seems to know how to produce year in and year out.

You can't just come crashing in here, spouting off a bunch of half-assed BS and expect fans who are more familiar with the actual situation to just take it sitting down. I know I'm not going to...

missedgehead
07-15-2008, 10:01 AM
How many fans (when dealing with rival teams fans) can keep a level head and form true-to-football assessments? I've seen many a guy on this site and on Browns247 who can't help but mouth off when dealing with someone from "off site".

I occasionally will shoot off at the mouth, but I do try to take an objective look at all teams. Even the hated "Stoolers". LOL It benefits me, because then when I watch the games, I can better assess who's playing well and who isn't.

Well, I try to, and I admit I fail in this, but I try not to take sports so seriously. I TRY not to. LOL I can get riled up like any sports fan. I will shoot off the mouth too at times.LOL However, I do try to look at teams, even my own and try to take off the rose colored glasses and look at them objectively.

Mosca
07-15-2008, 10:08 AM
Thank you! I,too, prefer football talk. Still don't like your team, but that's not your fault, lol.

As for CS85, who says he's an actual Browns fan? Maybe he's a Bengals fan (who really has nothing worth bragging about) so he instead props up the other division rival just to spite the Steelers. That's been my take anyways. LOL

CS85 IS a Bengals fan, but he doesn't play fan-boy games. He comes in here, he is unabashedly a proud fan of the tiger stripes, he is not a bandwagon fan, and he talks football knowledgeably. He sticks up for his guys and backs it up with insight. You have to respect that. I don't always agree with him, but he always thinks through what he is going to say.

It's good for you to hate our team. That's what makes it fun when you win... and fun for us when you lose!

Lord Stiller
07-15-2008, 10:09 AM
You obviously haven't been subjected to the horror that is the NFC West on a regular basis.

but it never did happen

and we aren't in the NFC West

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Yup, questioning my fanhood because I KNOW Ben is a superior pocket passer (I've seen him play in person through college) is real level-headed of you.

Did you know, oh great guru of all things football that part of the reason Ben holds the ball is because of the offense he runs? Arians offense is predicated upon a ton of complicated crossing routes that take longer to develop. Arians clearly couldn't be expected to know that the OL was going to drop off so much from one year to next, so he was kind of stuck in midstream. Ben's "inability to check down" is garabge. In the SB year he did it plenty, but that was apples and oranges.

As for OL's, the Steelers have the best (or among the best) in the business year in and year out. I can't remember two years ina row where they weren't. Conversely, the Browns have had a good OL once in tha last 9 years. I'm sticking with the team that seems to know how to produce year in and year out.

You can't just come crashing in here, spouting off a bunch of half-assed BS and expect fans who are more familiar with the actual situation to just take it sitting down. I know I'm not going to...

Ben needs to work on better pocket passing. He still relies on his athleticism more than is necessary. He either needs to make his reads faster or throw it away. Yes, he's as dangerous as they come when rolling out or when the play breaks down, but it's still something he nees to work on.

I never said that he had an "inability" to check down. Any conversation I recall discussing that was about my QB, Derek Anderson.

I promise you this, I have not been one to label the Steelers OL as a weakness prior to last season's debacle. I am one of those fans who believes that the Browns could have learned a lot by emulating the Steelers approach to team success. It starts up front where your O-line and D-line have been more than adequate (generally speaking) for the last decade.

Last year, your O-line was a problem. This year, you better hope more people step up, because otherwise, your situation is likely to worsen. That's not a Browns fan taking, that's a football guy talking football sense.

I never said I was a guru of all things football either. Yes, I have been collecting and studying football information for several years now. However, I know I still have a lot to learn. I am giving my assessment of your situation based on what I've seen and what I've read from a site I trust. Footballoutsiders.com

Your O-line needs work and a weakness of Big Ben is he holds on to the ball too long trying (very hard) to make the big play that few others could dream of making. He has had success making those types of plays (huge success at times) but it's the short term failures that could lead to long term problems.

missedgehead
07-15-2008, 10:13 AM
Yup, questioning my fanhood because I KNOW Ben is a superior pocket passer (I've seen him play in person through college) is real level-headed of you.

Did you know, oh great guru of all things football that part of the reason Ben holds the ball is because of the offense he runs? Arians offense is predicated upon a ton of complicated crossing routes that take longer to develop. Arians clearly couldn't be expected to know that the OL was going to drop off so much from one year to next, so he was kind of stuck in midstream. Ben's "inability to check down" is garabge. In the SB year he did it plenty, but that was apples and oranges.

As for OL's, the Steelers have the best (or among the best) in the business year in and year out. I can't remember two years ina row where they weren't. Conversely, the Browns have had a good OL once in tha last 9 years. I'm sticking with the team that seems to know how to produce year in and year out.

You can't just come crashing in here, spouting off a bunch of half-assed BS and expect fans who are more familiar with the actual situation to just take it sitting down. I know I'm not going to...


May I ask you something? Go ahead and shoot me for daring to ask you a question,but I am going to ask it anyway. To me, a stupid question is the one not asked: Why is Ben sacked so much then? The person you are responding to may be a Browns fan but he/she has a point. One of my best friends I know from another Steelers forum who is a longtime Steelers fan like I am says the same thing that this Browns fan is saying.....Ben has to learn to throw a ball away. Ben says how he admires Marino. Marino was one of the LEAST sacked QBs. Part of it was due to the OL of course, but a huge part was because Marino made the quick read and got the ball OUT OF HIS HAND FAST. He made quick reads. You pointed out one thing I do not like about Arians....slow developing plays. Arians has to draw up plays that develop quickly also. That too can reduce sacks. I disagree that our OL is one of the best. Ben was the second most sacked QB right behind Kitna of the Lions. VInce Young makes plays with his feet and he is not sacked as much as Ben is.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 10:25 AM
May I ask you something? Go ahead and shoot me for daring to ask you a question,but I am going to ask it anyway. To me, a stupid question is the one not asked: Why is Ben sacked so much then? The person you are responding to may be a Browns fan but he/she has a point. One of my best friends I know from another Steelers forum who is a longtime Steelers fan like I am says the same thing that this Browns fan is saying.....Ben has to learn to throw a ball away. Ben says how he admires Marino. Marino was one of the LEAST sacked QBs. Part of it was due to the OL of course, but a huge part was because Marino made the quick read and got the ball OUT OF HIS HAND FAST. He made quick reads. You pointed out one thing I do not like about Arians....slow developing plays. Arians has to draw up plays that develop quickly also. That too can reduce sacks. I disagree that our OL is one of the best. Ben was the second most sacked QB right behind Kitna of the Lions. VInce Young makes plays with his feet and he is not sacked as much as Ben is.

You may always question, but the responses you get can't be guarnateed. Yeah, I know the question wasn't directed at me, but that's just how it is.

The point of your O-line was that you've had a good OL for many years. Not necessarily last year (because he did point out that it dropped off). But, for years, you guys have had a top-notch O-line.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-15-2008, 10:26 AM
...Santonio is a plug and play type of guy. Admit it you could find another receiver quite who's easily like him.


Holmes' numbers increased in every category from 2006 to 2007...from 49 catches to 52; his yards from 824 to 942.... his yards per catch improved from a very impressive 16.8 in 2006 to an even more remarkable 18.1 in '07...... and finally, he scored 8 TDs in 2007 compared to 2 in 2006......the 18.1 yards per catch led the league by the way.:doh:

Plug and Play player?.....thats just retarded.

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 10:45 AM
Easy. Ben takes sacks because that's how he plays. That's how he played at Miami, and that's how he plays now. He's a bit of a gunslinger. As for him being so great at making plays by improvising, I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of Ben's mistakes usually are the result of the same. When he drops back, scans the field, sets his feet and throws, he's a brilliant passer, abd that's a brilliant POCKET passer. But the OL did not afford him that opportunity. So he improvises. Again, that is the way he plays. He holds the ball a long time because he's a big guy and he has eyes in the back his head (the best at it I've seen since Marino). It's his game. It DOES NOT make him an inferior pocket passer. Coupled with the type of offense he plays in, and you get what you get.

If you want Ben to throw the ball away, than you want a different QB then he is. If you want him to be sacked less, than change the ofense to quicker drops/reads and put a better pass blocking OL in front of him, and, you know what? He may STILL get sacked a lot.

I take umbrage to Ben doubters. He has a strong arm, he's a solid drop-back QB, he reads defenses, he goes through his progressions, and he can dump the ball off if an outlet is available (remember, Parker isn't exactly Brian Westbrook back there). He was the second highest rated QB last year. He's what, 24? He's still learning how to play the game. His best years haven't even happened yet. Some fan from another team with a few posts coming in and bashing him without proper background isn't cool to me. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but that's just the way it is...

Edit: To further illustrate the idiocy of comments about him needing help as a pocket passer, the dude was running around for his life most of last year, and still completed 65% of his passes. Does anyone here actually think if he had a better line, and more time, that his completion percentage would have dropped? By setting up in the pocket with time Ben would be less of a QB? By being able to plant and follow through on his throws, he'd be less accurate?

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 12:21 PM
I never said he was a terrible pocket passer. My view on this is that if he continues to take the needless hits like he has been, he'll get injured. I know that's how he played at Miami. I'm also a fan of BGSU. I've seen a few games with him in it. He' s a tough kid. No doubt about it.

If I were a Steelers fan, I'd want him to get rid of the ball a little quicker, even if it means throwing the ball away, to ensure that he's around longer. The hits he took while in the MAC don't compare to the shots he's taken in the Pros. Eventually, he'll take one that will steal his athleticism, and then what?

Speaking of idiotic comments. Please re-read your Edit portion. The whole thing is dripping with idiocy. Reread this entire thread and see if you can point out where anybody said his completion percentage would drop if he had more time and such. That whole comment was inane and unnecessary as it has nothing to do with anything I've said or anyone else who's posted in this thread.

If you think that by saying he needs to make quicker reads and get rid of the ball quicker is bashing, then yes, I'm bashing Ben. But I've never said he's a bad quarterback. I just said there's things he needs to improve upon for the purpose of extending his career.

CantStop85
07-15-2008, 01:37 PM
As for CS85, who says he's an actual Browns fan? Maybe he's a Bengals fan (who really has nothing worth bragging about) so he instead props up the other division rival just to spite the Steelers. That's been my take anyways. LOL

Darn it, after all these years someone finally blows my cover. What gave me away? My posts? My sig? My moniker?

All I can say is at least the Bengals have actually been to a Super Bowl. :noidea:

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-15-2008, 01:39 PM
Darn it, after all these years someone finally blows my cover. What gave me away? My posts? My sig? My moniker?

All I can say is at least the Bengals have actually been to a Super Bowl. :noidea:

...that reminds me....Did Carson ever thank Ben for those tickets?

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 01:44 PM
Darn it, after all these years someone finally blows my cover. What gave me away? My posts? My sig? My moniker?

All I can say is at least the Bengals have actually been to a Super Bowl. :noidea:

Shakespeare wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

You call it a Superbowl, but the Browns have won NFL championships. Granted, it's been far too long, but an NFL championship is still an NFL championship. We just haven't been to a Superbowl, the current name for an NFL championship.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-15-2008, 02:13 PM
.... We just haven't been to a Superbowl, the current name for an NFL championship.


CURRENT?...CURRENT!!!???....sooo by that logic....our current president is Lyndon B. Johnson....and we can hope the current war in Vietnam ends soon?:pity:

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 03:20 PM
CURRENT?...CURRENT!!!???....sooo by that logic....our current president is Lyndon B. Johnson....and we can hope the current war in Vietnam ends soon?:pity:

WTH? The name of the NFL Champioship was changed to Superbwl after the AFL/NFL Merger. Sooo, by that logic, it went from being called an NFL championship to a Superbowl. The name has changed, the final game was the same.

If we changed the title of the leader of our nation to Goobersnatch, it still doesn't change anything but a name. The President would then be called a Goobersnatch instead. However, we wouldn't talk about George Washington as a Goobersnatch. He'd still be the first President.

However, Obama/McCain would be a Goobersnatch. We wouldn't call them Presidents anymore because that's not what the title is. The job doesn't change, they're still the leader of the country.

Same thing with the Browns Championships. They haven't won one since the name has been changed to Superbowl, but the championships won prior to the Superbowl era are still regonized as championships.

It's not the Browns fault that somebody decided that the term "Superbowl" would be a tremendous hype-building term and changed it back in the late '60s.

Yes, we've done nothing since the term was changed (might as well address the comments that are coming) to get back to the NFL Championship game but one choke job after another. I know. I've been a fan all my life. I know.

missedgehead
07-15-2008, 03:36 PM
Easy. Ben takes sacks because that's how he plays. That's how he played at Miami, and that's how he plays now. He's a bit of a gunslinger. As for him being so great at making plays by improvising, I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of Ben's mistakes usually are the result of the same. When he drops back, scans the field, sets his feet and throws, he's a brilliant passer, abd that's a brilliant POCKET passer. But the OL did not afford him that opportunity. So he improvises. Again, that is the way he plays. He holds the ball a long time because he's a big guy and he has eyes in the back his head (the best at it I've seen since Marino). It's his game. It DOES NOT make him an inferior pocket passer. Coupled with the type of offense he plays in, and you get what you get.

If you want Ben to throw the ball away, than you want a different QB then he is. If you want him to be sacked less, than change the ofense to quicker drops/reads and put a better pass blocking OL in front of him, and, you know what? He may STILL get sacked a lot.

I take umbrage to Ben doubters. He has a strong arm, he's a solid drop-back QB, he reads defenses, he goes through his progressions, and he can dump the ball off if an outlet is available (remember, Parker isn't exactly Brian Westbrook back there). He was the second highest rated QB last year. He's what, 24? He's still learning how to play the game. His best years haven't even happened yet. Some fan from another team with a few posts coming in and bashing him without proper background isn't cool to me. Sorry if that ruffles feathers, but that's just the way it is...

Edit: To further illustrate the idiocy of comments about him needing help as a pocket passer, the dude was running around for his life most of last year, and still completed 65% of his passes. Does anyone here actually think if he had a better line, and more time, that his completion percentage would have dropped? By setting up in the pocket with time Ben would be less of a QB? By being able to plant and follow through on his throws, he'd be less accurate?


Dude, I am not a Ben doubter. I am not questioning whether he is a pocket passer or whatever. I am a HUGE fan of his. He is one of my all time favorite QBs dude, so please relax. I just asked a simple question and he is 26 btw. That is all. No need to get defensive by a question.

fansince'76
07-15-2008, 03:38 PM
WTH? The name of the NFL Champioship was changed to Superbwl after the AFL/NFL Merger. Sooo, by that logic, it went from being called an NFL championship to a Superbowl. The name has changed, the final game was the same.

Well, actually the first game to be called the "Super Bowl" was Super Bowl III, the first two Super Bowls were called the AFL/NFL World Championship Game. But it still was before the merger.

tony hipchest
07-15-2008, 03:59 PM
that settles it. the browns have won several Goobersnatch Championships.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 04:02 PM
My bad, the merger was agreed to in 1966, but didn't officially happen until 1970.

Because the agreement was made, I just use 1966 as the baseline date. A technical oversight on my part. In the future, despite knowing the difference, I'll still likely slip up and go with a 1966 Merger.

fansince'76
07-15-2008, 04:08 PM
My bad, the merger was agreed to in 1966, but didn't officially happen until 1970.

Because the agreement was made, I just use 1966 as the baseline date. A technical oversight on my part. In the future, despite knowing the difference, I'll still likely slip up and go with a 1966 Merger.

Ah, no big - had the Super Bowl been in existence at the time, the Browns would have been in a few - for example, they would have been the NFL representative in 1964 against Buffalo, who would have been the AFL representative.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 04:09 PM
that settles it. the browns have won several Goobersnatch Championships.

I see. When you point out a perceived flaw in my arguments, I get called an idiot.

When I point out a flaw in your argument, you act like an idiot.

I'm glad the great majority of the people here are not like you.

The Browns have 4 NFL Championship and 4 AAFC Championships. The NFL doesn't really recognize those championships from the AAFC, but they do recognize that the Browns do hold 4 titles. The last one was waaaaay back in 1964. When they changed the name of the championship to Superbowl, it changed nothing. The Browns had still gotten theirs.

tony hipchest
07-15-2008, 04:14 PM
I see. When you point out a perceived flaw in my arguments, I get called an idiot.

When I point out a flaw in your argument, you act like an idiot.

I'm glad the great majority of the people here are not like you.

The Browns have 4 NFL Championship and 4 AAFC Championships. The NFL doesn't really recognize those championships from the AAFC, but they do recognize that the Browns do hold 4 titles. The last one was waaaaay back in 1964. When they changed the name of the championship to Superbowl, it changed nothing. The Browns had still gotten theirs.

:huh: has someone been arguing with you and calling you an idiot?

thats news to me. :hunch:

i just thought it was funny to call the brownies Goobersnatch Champions of the world. :tt02:

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 05:29 PM
:huh: has someone been arguing with you and calling you an idiot?

thats news to me. :hunch:

i just thought it was funny to call the brownies Goobersnatch Champions of the world. :tt02:

:banging: I humbly apologize. It wasn't you and it wasn't this thread. :doh:

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 05:30 PM
Oh man this is PRICELESS..the Super Bowl argument yet again.

The cruel irony of it all is that all 6 super bowl appearances had directly to do with Cowher and Nolls experience with the Cleveland Browns. Without the Browns..the Steelers are playing ball in Las Vegas much like the Cardinals in Arizona..You guys had as much success as they did during the same period up until the "immaculate reception"

But oh well..lets just pretend that all the inspiration came from the sky. I mean we should all get rid of Red Granges bust in the hall because..he didn't influence football what-so-ever, and anything that came before 1972 isn't football. Jim Brown Yup..he shouldn't be in the hall. Chuck Bednarik shouldn't be there..neither should Sam Huff..And so on and so on.

You do realize how idiotic it is to say that Football didn't exist during those days. I'm not going to argue the Steel Curtain days didn't influence are reasons to brag..but to not even count the Browns championship era in the 50's and 60's is moronic, as they had just as much influence and importance if not MORE than the Steelers during those days.

xfl2001fan
07-15-2008, 05:45 PM
I don't think there was any argument (this time) about our championships. I stated that the name had changed, but we still have the championships. Then Tony made a goofy comment based on my argument and I falsely accused him of calling me an idiot.

fansince'76
07-15-2008, 06:13 PM
You do realize how idiotic it is to say that Football didn't exist during those days.

Yep - every bit as idiotic as the suggestion that if it weren't for the Browns, the Steelers wouldn't have won 5 SBs. Reach much?

HometownGal
07-15-2008, 06:43 PM
When I point out a flaw in your argument, you act like an idiot.

I'm glad the great majority of the people here are not like you.



Hey - take it as a compliment. When Sir Hipcheese calls you an "idiot", it means he likes you! :applaudit: :wink02: To know Tony is to wuv him. :hatsoff:

You do realize how idiotic it is to say that Football didn't exist during those days. I'm not going to argue the Steel Curtain days didn't influence are reasons to brag..but to not even count the Browns championship era in the 50's and 60's is moronic, as they had just as much influence and importance if not MORE than the Steelers during those days.

I will never discount the Browns successes in the 50's and 60's (as well as their 4 AAFC Championships in the 40's) They were also a force to be reckoned with in the mid 80's. Since that time (excluding Art the Hut's move to Baltimore), though, the Browns seem to take one step forward and two steps back each season. It has to be very frustrating for you Clowns fans. As Steelers fans, we have been blessed (and spoiled!) to have had so much success over the last almost 4 decades. Imho, for the Browns to take the AFCN this season, they are going to have to beat the Steelers twice and sorry - that just ain't going to happen. :flap:

paw-n-maul-u
07-15-2008, 06:52 PM
Brownie fans dear god. You two are having a love fest on here together, I bet if you could, you would go camping together, brokeback-style.

The NFL was not the NFL until it was the NFL. And in the NFL, the steelers have 5 championships. That is the bottom line ...

I was arguing with a silly little browns friend of mine earlier today, making a huge deal about the ESPN rankings of all 32 teams.

The browns had O-line, WR's (which in my opinion is a push), and TE ahead of the steelers (they'll probably get ST's based on Cribbs alone as well) ... other than that, the steelers were ahead of the browns in every category, and will most surely be ahead of the browns tomorrow when the "defensive backs" segment is posted.

The browns are so excited about this year it is sick. And it is so pathetic to be a browns fan. Every time something good happens, something bad does too, so WATCH OUT.

KW2- hurt two years in a row, u dropped tons of money into Gary Baxter or Dexter Jackson or some former SB MVP from bucs, tons of money in bentley, decent amount of money in Mcginnest ... the browns are free agent dumpster of injuries and bad decisions. ... I just cannot wait until Rogers or Williams or Stallworth get hurt during mini camp, just like EVERY OTHER player that the browns have gotten all excited and panties in a bunch about, ESPECIALLLY big FA signings. oh boy oh boy, i mean i never hope for a brownie to get injuried. but i know it is going to happen, it has to be a bad feeling

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE=paw-n-maul-u;413402]Brownie fans dear god. You two are having a love fest on here together, I bet if you could, you would go camping together, brokeback-style.

The NFL was not the NFL until it was the NFL. And in the NFL, the steelers have 5 championships. That is the bottom line ...

The browns are so excited about this year it is sick. And it is so pathetic to be a browns fan. Every time something good happens, something bad does too, so WATCH OUT./QUOTE]


oh..kay..according to your logic..The NFL was the NFL when the Browns won their Championships..Name wise..and half their team wise, and probably some would argue the best teams of the era.

Why is it Pathetic to be a Browns fan? I didn't chose them because they had slick uniforms or won a whole bunch of championships when I grew up, or had neon deion flashy players. I chose them as my team because they're my hometown team and because I really wanted to remain a hardcore fan. ANYONE can cheer on a winner..when your team was as bad as the Browns were pre-2007 with such Super Stars as Ben Gay. Can you really blame us for being excited? Remember how bad the Browns were under Belicheat and threw our Hometown boy QB under the bus for calling his own plays because he was such a lousy coach here?. Having QBs like Testaverde and Zier, and then having your Team build from scratch. Having to deal with your Franchise QB in Timmy Couch get his career shortened because his o-line was non-existent. And then we finally get a gleam of hope last year and you expect us to think "Oh its a fluke" and go back to going 2-14? The Hell with that. It's great to have a competitive team here now, and forgive for having flashbacks of Kosar in Brady Quinn, and being reminded of what Metcalf did to you guys in '93 in seeing Josh Cribbs take it to the house. We auctually have legit parts from which to build from in having an offensive line, an improving defense and an awesome recieving corp. Even if this season doesn't go as planned I don't see the Browns dropping off the face of the earth. Will it be a disapointment? Yes. But the way Phil and RAC have built this team they have the ability to at least be able to competitive each and every weekend.

paw-n-maul-u
07-15-2008, 08:03 PM
[QUOTE=paw-n-maul-u;413402]Brownie fans dear god. You two are having a love fest on here together, I bet if you could, you would go camping together, brokeback-style.

The NFL was not the NFL until it was the NFL. And in the NFL, the steelers have 5 championships. That is the bottom line ...

The browns are so excited about this year it is sick. And it is so pathetic to be a browns fan. Every time something good happens, something bad does too, so WATCH OUT./QUOTE]


oh..kay..according to your logic..The NFL was the NFL when the Browns won their Championships..Name wise..and half their team wise, and probably some would argue the best teams of the era.

Why is it Pathetic to be a Browns fan? I didn't chose them because they had slick uniforms or won a whole bunch of championships when I grew up, or had neon deion flashy players. I chose them as my team because they're my hometown team and because I really wanted to remain a hardcore fan. ANYONE can cheer on a winner..when your team was as bad as the Browns were pre-2007 with such Super Stars as Ben Gay. Can you really blame us for being excited? Remember how bad the Browns were under Belicheat and threw our Hometown boy QB under the bus for calling his own plays because he was such a lousy coach here?. Having QBs like Testaverde and Zier, and then having your Team build from scratch. Having to deal with your Franchise QB in Timmy Couch get his career shortened because his o-line was non-existent. And then we finally get a gleam of hope last year and you expect us to think "Oh its a fluke" and go back to going 2-14? The Hell with that. It's great to have a competitive team here now, and forgive for having flashbacks of Kosar in Brady Quinn, and being reminded of what Metcalf did to you guys in '93 in seeing Josh Cribbs take it to the house. We auctually have legit parts from which to build from in having an offensive line, an improving defense and an awesome recieving corp. Even if this season doesn't go as planned I don't see the Browns dropping off the face of the earth. Will it be a disapointment? Yes. But the way Phil and RAC have built this team they have the ability to at least be able to competitive each and every weekend.

the first bold is the Question? why you asked it I don't even know. The second bold is the answer, which you did yourself. THAT is why it is pathetic to be a browns fan. To be more than happy that your team is "at least able to be competatie each and every weekend". I can't remember the last time the steelers weren't at the very VERY least "competative".

paw-n-maul-u
07-15-2008, 08:10 PM
Honestly, the steelers are the Chuck Norris of the NFL.

If somehow the steelers left pittsburgh, then came back, they would still punch you in the mouth on their return.

The tears from steeler players cures cancer is the myth. Bullshit, steelers don't cry.

If a steeler took a #2 on the dirt, a rich and beautiful forrest would spring up, even in the sahara desert. But steelers dont do that, they only take browns fans hot moms out to dinner and never call them back!

all in all, regardless of the circumstances, the steelers would never be as pathetic as the browns have been, since the REAL NFL

revefsreleets
07-15-2008, 08:13 PM
Speaking of idiotic comments. Please re-read your Edit portion. The whole thing is dripping with idiocy. Reread this entire thread and see if you can point out where anybody said his completion percentage would drop if he had more time and such. That whole comment was inane and unnecessary as it has nothing to do with anything I've said or anyone else who's posted in this thread.

If you think that by saying he needs to make quicker reads and get rid of the ball quicker is bashing, then yes, I'm bashing Ben. But I've never said he's a bad quarterback. I just said there's things he needs to improve upon for the purpose of extending his career.

Oh, there's a dripping idiot here. That's for sure. Let me try a different concept for you, since you seem to have a VERY selective and revisionist memory.

OK, so Ben plays for the Browns last year. He plays drop-back role in that O. What kind of numbers would he have?

Brady plays for the Steelers and has to scramble. What kind of numbers does he have?

What about Manning?

What about Derek Anderson?

Dude, your game is played out. Give it up. You came over talking nonsense with limited info from some other board, and you got called out. It's over. Just concede.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=RodWoodsonwasprettycool;413411]

the first bold is the Question? why you asked it I don't even know. The second bold is the answer, which you did yourself. THAT is why it is pathetic to be a browns fan. To be more than happy that your team is "at least able to be competatie each and every weekend". I can't remember the last time the steelers weren't at the very VERY least "competative".

Again for the reasons I listed above, thats why we wern't competive for the longest time..We have pretty crappy luck and the wrong people running since about 1990ish. Anything I can do about it? Nope...But I can tell you that Phil has the team on the right track. Even during the '05 and '06 seasons you could see that he was building a team the way its supposed to be built.

Miserable at times? Yeah. Pathetic? Hardly so. I've stuck with this team and so have countless others, which says a lot about the character of a lot of our fans. meanwhile I've seen countless fairweather fans around here jump on the Steelers bandwagon for a multitude of reasons, most of which are really lame excuses (again if you grew up in Pitt. or were raised as one..I'm never gonna attack you over it.). THATS pathetic.

paw-n-maul-u
07-15-2008, 08:32 PM
[QUOTE=paw-n-maul-u;413422]

Again for the reasons I listed above, thats why we wern't competive for the longest time..We have pretty crappy luck and the wrong people running since about 1990ish. Anything I can do about it? Nope...But I can tell you that Phil has the team on the right track. Even during the '05 and '06 seasons you could see that he was building a team the way its supposed to be built.

Miserable at times? Yeah. Pathetic? Hardly so. I've stuck with this team and so have countless others, which says a lot about the character of a lot of our fans. meanwhile I've seen countless fairweather fans around here jump on the Steelers bandwagon for a multitude of reasons, most of which are really lame excuses (again if you grew up in Pitt. or were raised as one..I'm never gonna attack you over it.). THATS pathetic.

Well, Beaver falls is about as steel curtain as they get. Holler if you hear me from new brighton. The home of Ed Olkowski and his fighting midlanders. I need not present any more proof. And as early as the 05 and 06 season Phil was under much, much scrutiny in cleveland. Finding a decent steal as a QB (who is still FAR from "proven") and landing a couple high profile draft picks in Edwards and Winslow, that is his legacy, other than that, hes brought in countless Free Agency busts and almost spends like dan snyder. Hey bro. It's gonna catch up, that is the bottom line.

Ask the redskins how mortgaging half your draft for "very potentially talented" players in FA goes.

Sorry, but Phil savage wishes he could be Dan Snyder.

Steelman16
07-15-2008, 08:35 PM
[QUOTE=paw-n-maul-u;413422]

Again for the reasons I listed above, thats why we wern't competive for the longest time..We have pretty crappy luck and the wrong people running since about 1990ish. Anything I can do about it? Nope...But I can tell you that Phil has the team on the right track. Even during the '05 and '06 seasons you could see that he was building a team the way its supposed to be built.

Miserable at times? Yeah. Pathetic? Hardly so. I've stuck with this team and so have countless others, which says a lot about the character of a lot of our fans. meanwhile I've seen countless fairweather fans around here jump on the Steelers bandwagon for a multitude of reasons, most of which are really lame excuses (again if you grew up in Pitt. or were raised as one..I'm never gonna attack you over it.). THATS pathetic.

Phil Savage knows how to manage, I'll give him that.

But as far as our "bandwagon" fans...Every team who wins the Super Bowl automatically scores hundreds of new fans overnight. Which, generally, makes us who have been a fan of only one team look bad.

Your team has fairweather fans. Our team has fairweather fans. Boston only has fairweather fans, but that's a different story. :wink02:

Calling out the Steelers for having fairweather bandwagoners is what is pathetic. Like I said before, EVERY team has those, so what's the point?

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 08:40 PM
[QUOTE=RodWoodsonwasprettycool;413427]

Well, Beaver falls is about as steel curtain as they get. Holler if you hear me from new brighton. The home of Ed Olkowski and his fighting midlanders. I need not present any more proof. And as early as the 05 and 06 season Phil was under much, much scrutiny in cleveland. Finding a decent steal as a QB (who is still FAR from "proven") and landing a couple high profile draft picks in Edwards and Winslow, that is his legacy, other than that, hes brought in countless Free Agency busts and almost spends like dan snyder. Hey bro. It's gonna catch up, that is the bottom line.

Ask the redskins how mortgaging half your draft for "very potentially talented" players in FA goes.

Sorry, but Phil savage wishes he could be Dan Snyder.

I wasn't saying you goofball. :doh:, I'm not questioning you're loyalty to the Steelers..I was saying folks in akron/canton..MY area..Been to Beaver Falls on a college visit (was invited by the coach)..you guys got one HELL of a football team in the Geneva College Golden Tornadoes, and the coach Demarco is a class act. :). Again a very nice city and I would've went If it was possible for me.

Snyder has nothing on Phils scouting ability..Snyder is more of a Jerry Jones type of owner.

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 08:42 PM
Calling out the Steelers for having fairweather bandwagoners is what is pathetic. Like I said before, EVERY team has those, so what's the point?

Just saying..don't call Browns fans pathetic..as a lot of us our loyal..Not saying ya'll don't have similiar fans..just saying if there is a group of fans that are pathetic..than it is most defintly the bandwagon fans..and I used some of the Steelers ones in my area as an example.

Boston mos. def. has the most bandwagon fans..lord knows the sightings of Red Sux/Patsies and Celtics hats I've seen..

paw-n-maul-u
07-15-2008, 08:50 PM
[QUOTE=paw-n-maul-u;413430]

I wasn't saying you goofball. :doh:, I'm not questioning you're loyalty to the Steelers..I was saying folks in akron/canton..MY area..Been to Beaver Falls on a college visit (was invited by the coach)..you guys got one HELL of a football team in the Geneva College Golden Tornadoes, and the coach Demarco is a class act. :). Again a very nice city and I would've went If it was possible for me.

Snyder has nothing on Phils scouting ability..Snyder is more of a Jerry Jones type of owner.

wow, comparing scouting abilities with Dan Snyder ... Snyder has nothing on ANYONE's scouting ability you fool. Has he even HAD to scout the last five years? how many draft choices has he given away? silly brownie

HometownGal
07-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Gentlemen - can we please cease with the idiotic comments? :chuckle:

rick723
07-15-2008, 09:35 PM
:blah:

steelers will win the division with 10+ wins

They suck, we'll crush them LOL :tt:

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 09:38 PM
Gentlemen - can we please cease with the idiotic comments? :chuckle:

alright..I'll be good. :)..At least until September 14th. :sofunny:

fansince'76
07-15-2008, 09:48 PM
They suck, we'll crush them LOL :tt:

Looks like someone else is familiar with "DrunkHillbillyBiker" over on the old Steelers.com boards. :chuckle:

HometownGal
07-15-2008, 09:56 PM
alright..I'll be good. :)..At least until September 14th. :sofunny:

Kind of deja vu that a Browns fan would reply to a statement containing the word "idiotic". :wink02::flap::chuckle: For the record, I wasn't referring to your comments. I'm sure the gentlemen whom my request was directed to will get it. Hopefully. :hope:

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-15-2008, 09:59 PM
Kind of deja vu that a Browns fan would reply to a statement containing the word "idiotic". :wink02::flap::chuckle: For the record, I wasn't referring to your comments. I'm sure the gentlemen whom my request was directed to will get it. Hopefully. :hope:

ugh..now I do feel like an idiot :doh: lol.

but to really sum up everything..its all talk until the 14th of September rolls around. ;).

Haiku_Dirtt
07-16-2008, 02:38 AM
AGREE

steel striker
07-16-2008, 08:53 PM
Well anyone who bashes Ben has no clue and I will always defend our #1 Qb Big Ben. Having said that he makes big plays and as well he does get sacked alot but, that was due to bad oline play. It is easy to sit here and say take the dump off pass plays. While Brady and Peyton Manning have all day to throw the ball I can't stand when people pile on Big Ben. The scary thing is Ben is going to get better and, now with some nice weapons at his side look out for the steelers the next few years and, in years to come. I bet there are alot of teams that wished they have drafted Ben!!

RodWoodsonwasprettycool
07-16-2008, 09:23 PM
Well anyone who bashes Ben has no clue and I will always defend our #1 Qb Big Ben. Having said that he makes big plays and as well he does get sacked alot but, that was due to bad oline play. It is easy to sit here and say take the dump off pass plays. While Brady and Peyton Manning have all day to throw the ball I can't stand when people pile on Big Ben. The scary thing is Ben is going to get better and, now with some nice weapons at his side look out for the steelers the next few years and, in years to come. I bet there are alot of teams that wished they have drafted Ben!!

Never gonna bash Ben..he reminds me of Elway in a way he's able to make plays. I just am required to dislike him 'cuz I'm a Browns fan. But he is one of the better QB's in the league.

RoethlisBURGHer
07-16-2008, 10:04 PM
Never gonna bash Ben..he reminds me of Elway in a way he's able to make plays. I just am required to dislike him 'cuz I'm a Browns fan. But he is one of the better QB's in the league.

Thanks for not drinkin the haterade.

xfl2001fan
07-17-2008, 05:53 AM
Well anyone who bashes Ben has no clue and I will always defend our #1 Qb Big Ben. Having said that he makes big plays and as well he does get sacked alot but, that was due to bad oline play. It is easy to sit here and say take the dump off pass plays. While Brady and Peyton Manning have all day to throw the ball I can't stand when people pile on Big Ben. The scary thing is Ben is going to get better and, now with some nice weapons at his side look out for the steelers the next few years and, in years to come. I bet there are alot of teams that wished they have drafted Ben!!

It depends on how you define bashing, but he is definitely one of the top 5 QBs in the league. As a Browns fan I HATE seeing this guy in a Steelers uniform! :flap:

He does still have a few more years before he hits his "prime" which is a scary thought...at least for me.

I certainly wouldn't want to wish ill on him, but if he caught a real bad flu bug before playing the Browns, I wouldn't be upset. Nothing serious, just a short term (and fully recoverable type) illness that keeps him at less than 100%. :flap:

revefsreleets
07-18-2008, 10:06 AM
Don't be askeered. The OL will probably dramatically improve this year, giving Ben all kinds of time to pass, which will force him into becoming a pure pocket passer, at which point (according to your logic) he'll become an average QB and throw 5 D's to 42 INT's or whatever.

Lord Stiller
07-18-2008, 10:08 AM
It depends on how you define bashing, but he is definitely one of the top 5 QBs in the league.

Correction, he's definitely the 3rd best QB in the league behind Brady and Manning.

memphissteelergirl
07-18-2008, 10:35 AM
Steeler fans have many reasons to be hopeful;

1-Tomlin and his staff will coach the team better by virtue of one year of valiable experience.

2-Our defense should be better -New blood and quickness at linebacker and a healthy Troy and I personally sense that Ike is going to have a great season. Smith back in the lineup is high.

3-Our offensive line MAY BE BETTER. The addition of a bigger cente in Hartwig shold help

4-Our back field is simply loaded with so many more weapons.

5-IF Sweed develops quickly the Steelers receving corp will be among the very best.

6-#1 REASON FOR HOPE IS BIG BEN.

I believe 10 wins will win the division easily and that is well within our reach. The key is to stay healthy and finish strong down the stretch. This team has the ability to put a ton of points on the board and not have to worry about our opponents scoring the final go ahead points in the last two mins.


:iagree:

redst3
07-18-2008, 11:38 AM
I just am required to dislike him 'cuz I'm a Browns fan. But he is one of the better QB's in the league.

Not so! I grew up a Steelers fan in the 70's and still love seeing Roger Staubach and appreciate all he did.

I think though you were writing it all in good fun.

SteelMember
07-18-2008, 11:44 AM
Wow, that was a a long read. It seemed to get a little off topic, but the rivalry talk was pretty tame. I knew this was a friendly site when I noticed the official Browns logo in the smilies area...:poop:...:chuckle:jk.

Even with our schedule, I still say Steelers take it 10-6.:tt03:

MWS75
07-26-2008, 11:37 AM
I have to say that it would have been a tall order for the '75 Steelers to make the playoffs with a similar schedule as this year's. However, with so many questions on the other North teams, it looks like another 10-6 divisional championship again.

Preacher
01-12-2009, 11:36 PM
It seems appropriate to revisit this article...

One of the most compelling arguments against expanding the NFL playoffs from 12 teams is that having 14 or 16 teams in the postseason could result in a sub-.500 squad qualifying for the Super Bowl tournament.

There’s a chance, however, that it could happen in 2008—under the current system.

Each of the AFC North teams—Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns and Pittsburgh Steelers—will play each of the teams of the AFC South, which sent three teams (Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars and Tennessee Titans) to the 2007 playoffs. And each of the AFC North teams will play all the teams of the NFC East, which sent three teams (Dallas Cowboys, Washington Redskins and New York Giants) to the playoffs last season as well.

That’s half the entire schedule—and emerging from those eight games with a 4-4 record figures to be the best outcome possible for any of the AFC North teams.

The question then becomes whether any of the AFC North teams can dominate in the home-and-home round-robin portion of the schedule. Last year, it was a 5-1 division mark that, coupled with a mediocre 5-5 record in their other 10 games, allowed the Steelers to edge out the Browns via a tiebreaker.

This year, it’s anyone’s guess as to whether any one team can do better than 3-3 in the six divisional games.

It’s more interesting because even the supposedly good teams in the AFC North have flaws and the supposedly bad teams have potential.

The Browns are the trendy pick to win the AFC North, but the expectations and pressure could make it difficult for Cleveland to improve on last year’s “close but no dog bone” effort. The Browns start the season with a game against the Cowboys and then one each against the AFC North rivals.

We’ll know by October whether the Browns can succeed while waving the flag of front-runner.

The Steelers won’t give up their title quietly, but they haven’t done much in the offseason to improve. Their offensive line is going to be a major problem. And if the Steelers can’t score or win the field position tug of war, more stress will be placed on an aging defense.

On the surface, the Bengals seem to be in disarray. However, if new coordinator Mike Zimmer gets control of a porous defense, the team could be far more competitive in ‘08. If the Bengals get off to a quick start in September—minimizing the chances of a Chad Johnson meltdown—they could keep things close in the division.

Then there are the Ravens. With low expectations and a high likelihood of being overlooked by opponents, the team with an energetic and respected new coach, John Harbaugh, could stir things up. Just two seasons ago, Baltimore was 13-3. Sure, the roster has undergone some changes, but there’s enough left for the Ravens to be competitive.

The kicker in the AFC North could be the two remaining games on the schedule:

• The Steelers, by virtue of winning the division, will play the Patriots (16-0 last year) and Chargers (11-5). Ouch.
• The Browns get the Bills (7-9) and Broncos (7-9).
• The Bengals play the Jets (4-12) and Chiefs (4-12).
• And the Ravens face the Dolphins (1-15) and Raiders (4-12).

Whether the Steelers, Browns, Bengals or Ravens can get to .500 comes back to those eight games against the AFC South and NFC East. A uniform failure by the AFC North’s squads in those eight games could lead to the first 7-9 division winner in league history. And if the AFC North champion finishes 8-8, it’ll be only the second time that a .500 team has won a division. (It happened in 1985, when the Browns won the old AFC Central.)

Regardless of who wins the division, don’t expect to see double-digit wins. And, for the three runners-up, don’t be surprised to see each have double-digit losses.

So the two teams that are in the AFCCG, are both from the very division that wasn't going to produce a champion with a winning record. Thank Goodness we actually play the games.

zsheik22
01-12-2009, 11:41 PM
It seems appropriate to revisit this article...



So the two teams that are in the AFCCG, are both from the very division that wasn't going to produce a champion with a winning record. Thank Goodness we actually play the games.

HAHAHAHA. Nice freaking bump.

steelreserve
01-12-2009, 11:45 PM
So the two teams that are in the AFCCG, are both from the very division that wasn't going to produce a champion with a winning record. Thank Goodness we actually play the games.

Yeah, not to mention we were the ones who knocked out the division champion who DID have a .500 record. That's a nice glass of STFU for them.