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xfl2001fan
07-17-2008, 10:32 PM
(Posted this on Browns247 as well, really tired though cuz my 9 month old won't sleep...so not sure how good this is...can't wait for the reaction.)

ESPN just completed positional rankings for all 32 teams in the NFL. Using those rankings, I compiled the entire AFC North. When I'm much more awake I'll likely do this for all 32 teams so that we can see how we stand up the rest of the NFL.

The lower the numbers, the better. A first place voting in OL gives you 1 point. A 25 (Baltimore) is worth 25. Why complicate the issue further than that with mathematical reversals and such.

The Offensive Categories were as follows, QB, HB, WR, TE and OL
The Defensive Categories were as follows, DL, LB, DB
I threw the Special Teams in with defense, just because I hate doing averages with the number 3



Cleveland Browns
Offense - 4 out of 5 positions, the Browns ranked top 10 (2 were in the top 3). Only their HB failed to make it and they were 16th there. The 36 total points puts us as the best in the AFC North. Number 2 was 22 points greater. This also averages out to 7.2. Keep in mind, that doesn't mean we're the 7th best Offense in the NFL, we're actually likely to be better than that, it just let's us know how the 5 rankings average out. Our O-line was our best unit and rated as the best unit in the NFL. As indicated above, HB was our worst, and at 16th, it's still (technically) top half of the league.

Defense - Only our Special Teams was top 10 (#2), coupled with our DL (#13) those were the only two spots that were considered Top half of the league. Our secondary (as expected) hurt us pretty bad, sitting at #30. We ended up with 63 total points, which averaged 15.8. It still averages out as if it's top half of the league, but it's only good for #3 in the AFCN.

Overall - We totaled out with 99 points, which gave us an average score of 11. That was enough to put us as the top team in the AFCN

Pittsburgh Steelers
Offense - 3 out of 5 positions were top 10 in the league. However, their biggest weakness was their O-line, and at 24, that's a bad number to have in the most important position in the game. Their 58 points (11.6 AVG) was second in the AFCN.

Defense - Only their DL made it to the top 10 (#7), the other true defensive positions were still in the top half of the league. Their 21st ranking for Special teams is what hurt them the most on this set up. Even with that, their 56 points was good for 2nd in the AFCN, but that was nearly double the #1 D in the AFCN.

Overall - Their 114 points was good for 2nd in the AFCN (imagine that!) Their 12.7 points is just a hairbreadth behind the Browns.

Baltimore Ravens
Offense - Only their TE (16) made it in the top half of the league. That's how pitiful they look. Their 104 points (and 20.8 avg) is easily the worst in the AFCN and potentially bottom 1/3 in the league.

Defense - Every rating made it into the top 10 as this is easily the strength of the team. No real surprise there. Their 29 points was nearly half of the points that Pittsburgh had and their 7.23 avg is likely to be top 5 in the league.

Overall - As is expected of Baltimore, their defense outshines their offense here, and the 133 points that they put up is good for third in the AFCN. Their 14.9 avg leaves a larger gap between the Steelers and themselves (2.2) as what is between the Browns and the Steelers (1.7).

Cincinnati Bengals
Offense - 2 of the positions are top 5, 1 is top half of the league, but their HB and TE leave much to be desired. Their 71 points (14.2) is nearly double what the Browns have and good for third in the AFCN.

Defense - Their best rating on defense was 24th. It's that bad and likely the worst in the NFL. Their 102 points on defense was more than what the Browns had as a team and 12 shy of the Steelers total.

Overall - They totaled out at 173 points for a rediculously low 19.2 avg. Enough said


ULTIMATELY
What this means is nothing. Going into last season, the Browns surely weren't considerd an offensive juggernaut. With Bentley out for another year, their line wasn't going to be that good. Their WR's hadn't proved much other than TE KW2 was a good TE. J-Lew was washed up.

There's a whole season ahead of us with more surprises, twists and turns awaiting. Cincinnati could end up with the best defense in the league, Baltimore's offense could come together under Troy Smith and light the league on fire. The Steelers and Browns could both be cellar dwellars. Anything is possible, but I like the way these numbers add up!

CantStop85
07-17-2008, 11:41 PM
:coffee:

X-Terminator
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
ULTIMATELY
What this means is nothing.

Exactly.

Next...

Hammer Of The GODS
07-18-2008, 12:21 AM
(Posted this on Browns247 as well, really tired though cuz my 9 month old won't sleep...

Dude you should be more productive with you're time and sleep!
Because this was a waste of time! Before you get all pissy and lash out.....it has nothing to do with your browns coming out on top(although that is worth a laugh) it's about what is worth loosing sleep over! You aparently need it with the baby and all, and the time spent on this tripe was wasted imo. ESPN after all still has Sean Salsbury on the payroll and that doesn't speak well of thier ability to find analytical talent!

Get some sleep bro.

tony hipchest
07-18-2008, 12:35 AM
:applaudit: numbers are fun!



Pittsburgh Steelers
Offense - 3 out of 5 positions were top 10 in the league. However, their biggest weakness was their O-line, and at 24, that's a bad number to have in the most important position in the game. Their 58 points (11.6 AVG) was second in the AFCN.



and here i thought the qb was the "most important position in the game". :noidea:

the ONLY reason the steelers o-line has all the pundits thinking it is so poor, is because of sacks allowed. but average pundits dont take the time to dig a little deeper....

ben- 2nd in passer rating, 3rd in td's and yards per attempt (considered one of the most telling qb statistics) 3rd = (tied with manning and favre) whereas DA is 12th tied with palmer.

looks like the best o-line in the league dont mean squat if you dont have a qb to deliver.

cleveland- 8th in pts scored, steelers 9th (both behind the cardinals who were 7th) dont look like the best o-line has much of a difference in points scored. those are the points that really matter.

running backs are pretty important too:

willie parker- 4th in yards rushing. jamal lewis was 5th. so what good is the greatest line in the nfl in regards to this stat?

steelers- 3rd over all
cleveland- 10th over all

how does a team possibly pull that off without the most dominant line in the league?

with a 103 more passing attempts derrick anderson only threw for 633 more yards than ben. that (+ his 56.5 vs bens 65.3 completion percentage) shows DA is much more prone to just throwing the ball away to avoid a sack (and making his line look much better than it actually is) as opposed to trying to make a play and possibly taking a sack.

often times a qb risking taking a sack and making a play is the difference between making the playoffs ansd sitting at home.

:busted:

cleveland fans keep hanging their hat :hatsoff: on the opinion that they have the 5 best o-linemen in the league. that isnt worth much if the opposition has 17 of the other 22 starters who are better.

so really, if the browns line is so great, and the steelers line so poor (according to the #24 ranking you quote and assertion that o-line is the "most important position in the game") how do you explain the steelers beating the browns in most of these statistical categories?

:popcorn:

Preacher
07-18-2008, 12:54 AM
often times a qb risking taking a sack and making a play is the difference between making the playoffs ansd sitting at home.

:busted:




Boys and Girls.

This says it all, right here!

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Dude you should be more productive with you're time and sleep!
Because this was a waste of time! Before you get all pissy and lash out.....it has nothing to do with your browns coming out on top(although that is worth a laugh) it's about what is worth loosing sleep over! You aparently need it with the baby and all, and the time spent on this tripe was wasted imo. ESPN after all still has Sean Salsbury on the payroll and that doesn't speak well of thier ability to find analytical talent!

Get some sleep bro.

Actually, I was in the rocking chair with my 9 month old when I was typing this up. If I put him down, in his swing, gave him to his mom, he'd cry. So it was hold him and type (to at least keep the mind semi-active) or put him down and let him scream so that the wife couldn't sleep either. Seemed a fair trade off.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 08:28 AM
:applaudit: numbers are fun!



and here i thought the qb was the "most important position in the game". :noidea:

the ONLY reason the steelers o-line has all the pundits thinking it is so poor, is because of sacks allowed. but average pundits dont take the time to dig a little deeper....

ben- 2nd in passer rating, 3rd in td's and yards per attempt (considered one of the most telling qb statistics) 3rd = (tied with manning and favre) whereas DA is 12th tied with palmer.

looks like the best o-line in the league dont mean squat if you dont have a qb to deliver.

cleveland- 8th in pts scored, steelers 9th (both behind the cardinals who were 7th) dont look like the best o-line has much of a difference in points scored. those are the points that really matter.

running backs are pretty important too:

willie parker- 4th in yards rushing. jamal lewis was 5th. so what good is the greatest line in the nfl in regards to this stat?

steelers- 3rd over all
cleveland- 10th over all

how does a team possibly pull that off without the most dominant line in the league?

with a 103 more passing attempts derrick anderson only threw for 633 more yards than ben. that (+ his 56.5 vs bens 65.3 completion percentage) shows DA is much more prone to just throwing the ball away to avoid a sack (and making his line look much better than it actually is) as opposed to trying to make a play and possibly taking a sack.

often times a qb risking taking a sack and making a play is the difference between making the playoffs ansd sitting at home.

:busted:

cleveland fans keep hanging their hat :hatsoff: on the opinion that they have the 5 best o-linemen in the league. that isnt worth much if the opposition has 17 of the other 22 starters who are better.

so really, if the browns line is so great, and the steelers line so poor (according to the #24 ranking you quote and assertion that o-line is the "most important position in the game") how do you explain the steelers beating the browns in most of these statistical categories?

:popcorn:

1 - It was late, I was tired. I know I had said that.
2 - This wasn't my set of rankings. I didn't say the Steelers had the 24th best line or that the Browns had the best line. I even mentioned that this whole thing was based on what ESPN put out.
3 - I gave the final analysis and it was that Ulitmately, it meant nothing.
4 - "QB is the most important position" has been spun out by idiotic sports pundits for years. It's easy to sit and say that. However, when you look at every SB winner, when you look at the perinnial SB contenders, the one thing they all have in common is a good offensive line. Baltimores lone SB did not have a good QB. It had an OK QB with a good running game, good offensive line and good defense. The guys who go deepest into the playoffs are the guys who's lines win their battles. It sets the tone for the entire team.

If you were to take all of the Steelers "skill players" and put them behind an offensive line like what the Browns were sporting in 1999-2006, they would all suck. Yup, Hines Ward, Big Ben, FWP would all be bums. Those O-lines wouldn't have made it to #31 on this list (and if they did, then it would really show how much crack these ESPN writers were smoking.)

As for the Steelers success vs the Browns, it's easy to have success vs the Browns when we have no defense (particularly a defensive line). If you can't stop the run (and we couldn't) and you can't stop the pass (we did better there, but not top 10) you won't beat quality opponents. You'll play inconsistently (as shown by one win last season vs opponents with a winning record).

Hopefully our D-line shows drastic improvement (because we'll need it). Hopefully, an improvement in our D-line will equate to pressure generated on the QB (because we'll really need that). Hopefully, this will keep our young and relatively inexperienced secondary from....you get the point. But if the line is broke, the rest of the defense is broke. Same with our offense. If our line is broke, we won't do nearly as well.

revefsreleets
07-18-2008, 11:03 AM
This is easy to throw out, because Derek Anderson won't be a top 10 QB (in fact, he probably won't be starting by late October...dude is a career backup who sold his soul to the devil for one PB year) and the Browns DL is completely unproven (and was probably #32 last year). The Steelers LB corp SHOULD be top 10 and those few things right there are enough to make this about as plausible as Bigfoot.

Besides, I'm certainly willing to concede "on paper" championships to the Browns. That's likely the only kind they are ever going to see. Perhaps you can make up some t-shirts...

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 11:07 AM
"QB is the most important position" has been spun out by idiotic sports pundits for years.

It's not idiotic opinion, it's fact. If OL was more important than QB in determining a SB winner, we'd have at least 8, and very possibly 9 Lombardi Trophies right now instead of 5.

HometownGal
07-18-2008, 11:55 AM
Seeing the title of this thread made me reflect on an oldie but goodie . . . .

"Why does a dog lick . . . . . . "

Because it can! :chuckle:

Quite honestly, I don't pay one iota of attention to these talking heads before the season begins. More often than not, these media weenies end up with :egg: all over their faces at the end of the season.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 12:20 PM
It's not idiotic opinion, it's fact. If OL was more important than QB in determining a SB winner, we'd have at least 8, and very possibly 9 Lombardi Trophies right now instead of 5.

QBs without good lines don't have long and successful careers.

tony hipchest
07-18-2008, 12:36 PM
As for the Steelers success vs the Browns, it's easy to have success vs the Browns when we have no defense (particularly a defensive line). If you can't stop the run (and we couldn't) and you can't stop the pass (we did better there, but not top 10) you won't beat quality opponents. You'll play inconsistently (as shown by one win last season vs opponents with a winning record).

.i wasnt talking about the steelers owning the browns on the field of play, i was talking about them having them beat in all the statistical categories i mentionned.

so really, if the browns line is so great, and the steelers line so poor (according to the #24 ranking you quote and assertion that o-line is the "most important position in the game") how do you explain the steelers beating the browns in most of these statistical categories?

i keep hearing how the browns have this great patriot like offense. if that is true, how come the steelers offense is better?

i keep hearing how the browns line is so good and the steelers line is in shambles. if that is true, how come the steelers have the better offense?

people wanna dismiss the steelers offense for 2 reasons- faneca's departure and number of sacks the line allowed. however they ignore all the upgrades and will be blindsided when our excellent offense is even better.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 12:40 PM
This is easy to throw out, because Derek Anderson won't be a top 10 QB (in fact, he probably won't be starting by late October...dude is a career backup who sold his soul to the devil for one PB year) and the Browns DL is completely unproven (and was probably #32 last year). The Steelers LB corp SHOULD be top 10 and those few things right there are enough to make this about as plausible as Bigfoot.
Again, I didn't make the rankings, nor do I necessarily agree with all of them. Some are close, some are likely to be spot on, others should be questioned.

How does a 6th round draft pick who's been in the league for 3 years automatically get labled as a career backup? Can he not be given a chance? He was in a new system last year that opponents figured out near the end of the season (i.e. don't bother covering the HB out of the backfield, because he won't check down.) He now has a full year in the offensive system. He's had a full year to gel with his teammates. He's had a full year with his QB coach. That should enable him to improve some. I'm not saying he'll get to the Pro Bowl again next year, but you've only seen one season of the guy.

Besides, I'm certainly willing to concede "on paper" championships to the Browns. That's likely the only kind they are ever going to see. Perhaps you can make up some t-shirts...

I wonder how many Browns fans used to say that kind of stuff about the Steelers back in the 60's? Things change bro, things change.

Not sure where the relevance of the t-shirts fits in. But, it's whatever.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Seeing the title of this thread made me reflect on an oldie but goodie . . . .

"Why does a dog lick . . . . . . "

Because it can! :chuckle:

Quite honestly, I don't pay one iota of attention to these talking heads before the season begins. More often than not, these media weenies end up with :egg: all over their faces at the end of the season.

I got the line off of a web-comic site. The guy who does most of the work there occasionally adds to his blog and signs all of his stuff that way. It' s a bit raunchy, but it can be funny as hell.

If I had been able to sleep, I wouldn't have even written the thing. I wouldn't have bothered because I've yet to meet/read an "expert" who was anything better than a well paid guesser.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 01:07 PM
i wasnt talking about the steelers owning the browns on the field of play, i was talking about them having them beat in all the statistical categories i mentionned.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/12/31/ramblings/dvoa-ratings/5956/

I don't care about baseline stats. Some teams (like the Patriots) will throw for more yards just because they can. That link above is what I use to tell me how teams are playing and where they stand. These guys look at every single play and analyze it. Brady throwing for 350 yards vs the Steelers is given more weight than Brady throwing for 350 yards vs the Browns, because the Steelers have a better defense.

They had the Browns finished as the 11th best offense and the Steelers at 12th.

The Steelers were the 2nd best defense (though they admit that they would likely have been the #1 defense if they hadn't rested their starters) The Browns were 22nd.

The Browns had the 2nd best ST unit while the Steelers were 21st.

By seasons end, the Browns were playing like the 13th best team in the league and the Steelers were playing like the 8th best team.

These numbers take into account the Strength of Schedule and everything. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Browns were a better team than the NY Giants (#16). Like all things in life, the formulas and variables are not perfect, but I've found that by using their metrics for football pick'ems and such, I'm able to get far more games right now.

If you wanted to know what their numbers were going to say about the Jaguars Steelers game, look at the chart.

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 01:17 PM
QBs without good lines don't have long and successful careers.

Elway was sacked a record 516 times and lasted 16 seasons. His OL later in his career was excellent, but he got clobbered more than anyone earlier on. He took the Broncos to 3 SBs in the '80s singlehandedly despite the fact that his line wasn't very good and he had no running game. I know those knuckle-dragging slobbering Pats* homers at CHFF consider the losses in those SBs to be a black mark against him, but the Broncos wouldn't have sniffed those SBs in the first place if not for him.

Excerpt from a SI article on Elway from 12/30/1996:

Punch REWIND on your time machine and put Elway behind all of Joe Montana's lines in San Francisco and Montana behind all of Elway's lines in Denver. Nothing much changes in San Francisco, but by the age of 28 Montana is either dead or selling life insurance.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1009290/index.htm

Truer words have never been spoken.

CB1977
07-18-2008, 01:35 PM
Holy crap people...he just posted this as a read. If you don't agree with it, don't lash out at him. He didn't write it...just wanted to post it. No harm done, right?

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Elway was sacked a record 516 times and lasted 16 seasons. His OL later in his career was excellent, but he got clobbered more than anyone earlier on. He took the Broncos to 3 SBs in the '80s singlehandedly despite the fact that his line wasn't very good and he had no running game. I know those knuckle-dragging slobbering Pats* homers at CHFF consider the losses in those SBs to be a black mark against him, but the Broncos wouldn't have sniffed those SBs in the first place if not for him.

Excerpt from a SI article on Elway from 12/30/1996:



http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1009290/index.htm

Truer words have never been spoken.

So Keith Bishop (a Pro Bowl LG) was terrible? What about the fact that from 85-89 they had 7 other players (outside of Bishop and Elway) named to the Prowbowl or called All-Pros?

In fact, in 1986 (the year of "The Drive"), they had some HB named Winder who was good enough for a Pro Bowl bid. I could be wrong, I was just getting into football then, but the name does ring a bell.

But you're right, it was all Elway. He didn't even need a team, he played O, D and ST. I think in 86 alone they had like 4 or 5 guys go to the Pro Bowl, but it was really John Elway in a different jersey.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Holy crap people...he just posted this as a read. If you don't agree with it, don't lash out at him. He didn't write it...just wanted to post it. No harm done, right?

But I'm a Browns fan, so they have to refute nearly everything I say/do.

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 02:14 PM
So Keith Bishop (a Pro Bowl LG) was terrible? What about the fact that from 85-89 they had 7 other players (outside of Bishop and Elway) named to the Prowbowl or called All-Pros?

In fact, in 1986 (the year of "The Drive"), they had some HB named Winder who was good enough for a Pro Bowl bid. I could be wrong, I was just getting into football then, but the name does ring a bell.

But you're right, it was all Elway. He didn't even need a team, he played O, D and ST. I think in 86 alone they had like 4 or 5 guys go to the Pro Bowl, but it was really John Elway in a different jersey.

You're right, one guy makes an OL. If his OL was so great earlier in his career, why did he get sacked 516 times? Sammy Winder? Yeah, his other stud RB around that time was the great Bobby Humphrey as I recall. Please. Elway didn't have a running game until Terrell Davis came along. And yes, it was all Elway for the Broncos at the time, whether you want to face that fact or not.

HometownGal
07-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Holy crap people...he just posted this as a read. If you don't agree with it, don't lash out at him. He didn't write it...just wanted to post it. No harm done, right?

Calm down CB - LOL! I don't think the majority of the replies in this thread have been derogatory to xflfan. People just have a difference of opinion with regard to the Browns which is actually quite normal as this is, after all, a Pittsburgh Steelers BB. :wink02::hug: :tt02:

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 02:49 PM
You're right, one guy makes an OL. If his OL was so great earlier in his career, why did he get sacked 516 times? Sammy Winder? Yeah, his other stud RB around that time was the great Bobby Humphrey as I recall. Please. Elway didn't have a running game until Terrell Davis came along. And yes, it was all Elway for the Broncos at the time, whether you want to face that fact or not.

You made it seem like there was nobody on that team at all besides him. Often times, a Probowler will make the guys next to him that much better. Look how much worse Seattles line got after their LG went to Minnesota. Look at how much Minnesota's line improved.

They weren't chock full of good players like his line from the 90's, but they weren't necessarily all scrubs. 516 sacks is a terrible number and he absorbed a lot of punishment, no doubt about it.

Also, you forget that Elway was teamed up with a pretty good defense. I think most of their Pro Bowlers came from that side of the ball. If I remember right, each of their SB runs included a Pro Bowl DE, LB and DB. There was talent there besides himself.

BTW, I did a lil reasearch for ya. In his first 6 years in the league (83-88) he was sacked 172 times. He attempted 2654 pass attempts (6.48% sack rate)

The next 6 years (89-94) he was sacked 244 times in 2730 pass attempts (8.94%).

The next 4 years (95-98) he was sacked 100 times in 1866 pass attempts (5.36%). It looks to me like he wasn't doing nearly as bad. He was averaging 2 sacks per game over the first 6 years, nearly 3 per game over the next 6 and just shy of 2 sacks per game during his "twilight" years.

Ben's sack rate of 2.6 per game has him averaging more than Elway's average and is far greater than Elways first three years. Not only that, but his 146 attempts in 1436 attempts is putting him at 10% sack per dropback.

That percantage has increased each of the last three years (as has his fumbles).

I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul.

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 02:57 PM
You made it seem like there was nobody on that team at all besides him. Often times, a Probowler will make the guys next to him that much better. Look how much worse Seattles line got after their LG went to Minnesota. Look at how much Minnesota's line improved.

They weren't chock full of good players like his line from the 90's, but they weren't necessarily all scrubs. 516 sacks is a terrible number and he absorbed a lot of punishment, no doubt about it.

Also, you forget that Elway was teamed up with a pretty good defense. I think most of their Pro Bowlers came from that side of the ball. If I remember right, each of their SB runs included a Pro Bowl DE, LB and DB. There was talent there besides himself.

Fact remains the '86, '87 and '89 Broncos don't sniff those SBs without Elway. Period. End of story.

BTW, I did a lil reasearch for ya. In his first 6 years in the league (83-88) he was sacked 172 times. He attempted 2654 pass attempts (6.48% sack rate)

The next 6 years (89-94) he was sacked 244 times in 2730 pass attempts (8.94%).

The next 4 years (95-98) he was sacked 100 times in 1866 pass attempts (5.36%). It looks to me like he wasn't doing nearly as bad. He was averaging 2 sacks per game over the first 6 years, nearly 3 per game over the next 6 and just shy of 2 sacks per game during his "twilight" years.

Ben's sack rate of 2.6 per game has him averaging more than Elway's average and is far greater than Elways first three years. Not only that, but his 146 attempts in 1436 attempts is putting him at 10% sack per dropback.

That percantage has increased each of the last three years (as has his fumbles).

Unlike Elway, Ben also wasn't groomed to be a QB from about 4 years of age either. Ben's best years are ahead of him, not behind him.

I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul.

After Elway's record 516 career sacks, Dave Krieg was sacked 494 times in a 19-year career. Next on the list is Randall Cunningham with 484 sacks in a 17-year career. And you're also making the very premature assumption that the Steelers line isn't going to get better from a pass blocking perspective.

warddj86
07-18-2008, 03:26 PM
:applaudit: numbers are fun!





often times a qb risking taking a sack and making a play is the difference between making the playoffs ansd sitting at home.

:busted:


:popcorn:

Yep and look at what Eli did in the SB, as soon as the Pats defense got past the Giants OL, I thought it was over, but Eli broke out of it and he and Tyree made one of the most unbelivelable plays in SB history.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 04:59 PM
Fact remains the '86, '87 and '89 Broncos don't sniff those SBs without Elway. Period. End of story.

Unlike Elway, Ben also wasn't groomed to be a QB from about 4 years of age either. Ben's best years are ahead of him, not behind him.

After Elway's record 516 career sacks, Dave Krieg was sacked 494 times in a 19-year career. Next on the list is Randall Cunningham with 484 sacks in a 17-year career. And you're also making the very premature assumption that the Steelers line isn't going to get better from a pass blocking perspective.

Take away their All-Pro DE and they don't make it either. It's still a team sport.

Those are a select few who managed to take a pounding. How many guys got knocked out long before they took that many hits? What about HoF QB Steve Young? How many unnecessary shots did he take running around? How much longer would his career have been had he not taken so many hard shots?

You're also making the premature assumption that Ben stays healthy long enough to have his best years ahead of him.
*****************************************
To avoid a second post in a row, that was 1 play by a QB who has spent most of his young career being adequate. That it came at a critical juncture in the game is mostly irrelevant. What about the Steelers first SB? Wasn't the first points of the game due to a Safety? Would that QB not have been better served with throwing the ball away instead of trying to make a play?

tony hipchest
07-18-2008, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't count on him being as durable as Elway or Favre. There aren't many men who can stand up to that kind of beating and still be productive over the long haul. au contraire!

ben eats crown victorias for lunch and spits out the wheels and wiper blades like chicken bones.

he takes so many sacks because he can.

:tt03:

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 05:06 PM
What about HoF QB Steve Young? How many unnecessary shots did he take running around? How much longer would his career have been had he not taken so many hard shots?

I don't know, but even Steve Young lasted 14 seasons. You go ahead and keep on hoping Ben gets his career ended early. If I were a Browns fan, I probably would too.

What about the Steelers first SB? Wasn't the first points of the game due to a Safety? Would that QB not have been better served with throwing the ball away instead of trying to make a play?

Um, Tarkenton and the Vikes were backed up deep in their own territory when Tarkenton made a quick pitch to Osborn in the Vikes' own end zone, which Osborn fumbled. Tarkenton had a choice to fall on it in the end zone taking a safety or one of our guys recovering it in the end zone for a touchdown. Had nothing to do with Tarkenton "holding it too long," as it resulted from a fumbled pitch on a running play, not a pass play.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't know, but even Steve Young lasted 14 seasons. You go ahead and keep on hoping Ben gets his career ended early. If I were a Browns fan, I probably would too.

Young was a backup for how many? How many seasons did he not manage to play a full season?

I don't hope for his career to be shortened by injury. The only type of people I wish ill-will on are the types of people who don't deserve to be in the gene pool. Being a talented player on a rival team doesn't qualify.

Besides, I watched his little make-a-wish special that he did for that paralyzed kid. He's annoyingly talented, but seems like a really good person. I hope that the Browns get better than the Steelers as an overall team, but not for the purpose of hurting anyone.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 05:17 PM
Um, Tarkenton and the Vikes were backed up deep in their own territory when Tarkenton made a quick pitch to Osborn in the Vikes' own end zone, which Osborn fumbled. Tarkenton had a choice to fall on it in the end zone taking a safety or one of our guys recovering it in the end zone for a touchdown. Had nothing to do with Tarkenton "holding it too long," as it resulted from a fumbled pitch on a running play, not a pass play.

That I wasn't aware of. I knew it was Tarkenton who took the sack, but that SB was while my parents were still in school, so my older sister was still just a twinkle in God's eye. I was the crusty stuff in the corner. :flap:

fansince'76
07-18-2008, 05:19 PM
Young was a backup for how many? How many seasons did he not manage to play a full season?.

Did I include the 2 years Young spent in the USFL? Nope, guess I didn't.

I don't hope for his career to be shortened by injury. The only type of people I wish ill-will on are the types of people who don't deserve to be in the gene pool. Being a talented player on a rival team doesn't qualify.

Besides, I watched his little make-a-wish special that he did for that paralyzed kid. He's annoyingly talented, but seems like a really good person. I hope that the Browns get better than the Steelers as an overall team, but not for the purpose of hurting anyone.

I apologize for the insinuation. It just sounded like wishful thinking at a couple of points, and it's not like I've never heard that sentiment expressed by an opposing fan. :drink:

revefsreleets
07-18-2008, 05:32 PM
Bigfoot.

I'm convinced. The Browns have clearly won the "2008 On Paper AFC North Division Championship".

No where are those damned t-shirts!

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Did I include the 2 years Young spent in the USFL? Nope, guess I didn't.



I apologize for the insinuation. It just sounded like wishful thinking at a couple of points, and it's not like I've never heard that sentiment expressed by an opposing fan. :drink:

I think he spent more years as a backup than he spent as a starter in a lesser league. That's neither here nor there.

Don't sweat the insinuation. There are fans of team and fans of football. I'm a die-hard browns ban, an eternal optimist, but I'm a fan of the game first. Since our return, it hasn't really been a rivalry between the Steelers and the Browns. I want that back. If Ben goes down, odds are, there still is no rivalry as your team is likely to be shot.

xfl2001fan
07-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Bigfoot.

I'm convinced. The Browns have clearly won the "2008 On Paper AFC North Division Championship".

No where are those damned t-shirts!

:blah: And the sarcasm never ends.

revefsreleets
07-18-2008, 05:53 PM
If you guys go 4-0 in the preseason, you can always make some hats and shirts for that, too...Bengals style!

When you haven't won shit since Lyndon Johnson was President, you need to "Take the fight to the internet", apparently. Troll around and crash boards, bash QB's...whatever...

CB1977
07-21-2008, 08:52 AM
Calm down CB - LOL! I don't think the majority of the replies in this thread have been derogatory to xflfan. People just have a difference of opinion with regard to the Browns which is actually quite normal as this is, after all, a Pittsburgh Steelers BB. :wink02::hug: :tt02:

Sorry HTG....just giving a little support to a fellow Brownies fan. I still love ya (but don't expect me to wave another towel for ya). This will have to do...:hug:

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-21-2008, 10:23 AM
au contraire!

ben eats crown victorias for lunch and spits out the wheels and wiper blades like chicken bones.

he takes so many sacks because he can.

:tt03:

Tony's right.....Ben has almost "John Kuhn-like" invunerability!!!