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TroysBadDawg
07-20-2008, 09:48 AM
This I just received and am quite shocked.


"No Longer a Christian Nation"
As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as
Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . . 'we are no longer a
Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Buddhists,'

As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I
never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a
presidential candidate in this nation. To think our forefathers fought
and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--and to
have this man say with pride that we are no longer that.

Look how far this nation has come from what our founding fathers
intended it to be.

I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your concerns,
written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your email list. With
God's help, and He is still in control of this nation and all else,
we can show this man and the world in November that we are, indeed,
still a Christian nation!

Please pray for our nation!*

Preacher
07-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Funny thing...

We never were a Christian nation.

A nation cannot be Christian by nature of the belief itself. only individuals can be Christians.

The idea of a Christian nation is a left-over from the constantinianation of the Christian faith.

That we are now a nation of Buddhists, Hindhus, Jews, etc. is something for the country to be proud of, and something for Christians to be ashamed of, since it is our responsibility to share our faith, and we are not as effective as we should be.

TroysBadDawg
07-20-2008, 10:17 AM
Amen Brother Amen, although I don't like that Muslim throwing it in my face.

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 10:39 AM
Leaving aside whether or not Obama is correct, the Founders never intended the United States to be a "Christian" nation

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/

For that matter a number of the Founders probably were not practicing what is usually regarded as Christianity

Benjamin Franklin, for example, believed primarily in a God of reason but had serious doubts about the divinity of Jesus -- though he strongly subscribed to the moral ideas Jesus preached. Jefferson similarly saw Jesus as a "reformer and moral exemplar" and took a pair of scissors to his Bible to cut away all the parts -- miracles and supernatural interventions -- that offended his intellectual sensibilities.

Washington's religious affiliation, on the other hand, is notoriously ambiguous. Raised as an Anglican, Washington attended church, sometimes regularly. He served as churchwarden, observed fast days and vigorously promoted religion among the soldiers of the Continental Army. Yet he was never confirmed, avoided communion and during his lingering death never prayed nor asked for a clergyman. When he spoke or wrote of God, he favored words with decidedly deist and Masonic connotations: "Providence," "the Deity" and "the Grand Architect."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/08/AR2006060801123.html

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 10:41 AM
Amen Brother Amen, although I don't like that Muslim throwing it in my face.

Responding to these sorts of statements makes me the same sort of Sisyphean poster that Preacher becomes when he responds to the Bush bashing, but what is your basis for contending Obama is a Muslim?

CantStop85
07-20-2008, 11:38 AM
And?

Yeah we're not a Christian nation, we've never been a Christian nation, and hopefully we'll never be a Christian nation. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Christian, I'm even working as intern at my hometown church this summer...but I don't want ANY religion shoved down someone's throat by their country. As American citizens, it is our right to practice and believe as we wish without feeling compelled to believe one way or another.

It amazes me that some Christians are so arrogant to think that their beliefs are the only ones that should be justified. Though I do not personally believe in Islam, Buddhism, etc. I fully defend the rights of others to believe in them.

stillers4me
07-20-2008, 12:13 PM
The vast majority of American citizens are Christians.

It still says In God We Trust on our currency.

Our laws are still based on the principles of The Ten Commandments.

We are still swearing our oaths on Bibles.

We are still allowed to worship in any religion we want without interference from the government.

I believe that still makes us a nation based on Christian values and the day all that changes is the day this nation shall fall.

Obama promises change. Be careful what you wish for.

HometownGal
07-20-2008, 12:34 PM
The vast majority of American citizens are Christians.

It still says In God We Trust on our currency.

Our laws are still based on the principles of The Ten Commandments.

We are still swearing our oaths on Bibles.

We are still allowed to worship in any religion we want without interference from the government.

I believe that still makes us a nation based on Christian values and the day all that changes is the day this nation shall fall.

Obama promises change. Be careful what you wish for.

B-I-N-G-O! :thumbsup::drink:

xfl2001fan
07-20-2008, 01:05 PM
But, our nation was created to avoid religious persectution. That our founding fathers were primarily Christian is irrelevant. The fact was, almost all of Europe (back then) was chock full of nations controlled by the Church, particularly the Roman Catholic Church.

Religious persecution was huge back then because if you didn't believe the Roman Catholic way, you were more than just a sinner, you were a criminal.

Being founded by Christians doesn't give Christians any more rights here than it does Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, etc...

As a Soldier, I will defend that right to practice religion against all enemies, foreign and domestic. If it means fighting some home-grown asshole, so be it. We are not a nation of any specific religion, race, sex, or nationality. We are a true melting pot. We speak American not English.

err....I'll get off this soapbox now. You get the idea though.

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 01:06 PM
While repeating what someone else allegedly heard someone said can make a great talking point, just for the hell of it I tracked down the quote - Obama made the statement in an e-mail response to questions from Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcast Network (maybe Obama thought it was Al Jazeera)

"For progressives, I think we should recognize the role that values and culture play in addressing some of our most urgent social problems. As I've said many times before, the problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed aren't simply technical problems in search of a ten-point plan. They're rooted in both societal indifference and individual callousness - in the imperfections of man. When a gang-banger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels somebody disrespected him, we've got a moral problem. There's a hole in that young man's heart - a hole that the government alone cannot fix." ...

"I think that the right might worry a bit more about the dangers of sectarianism. Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. We should acknowledge this and realize that when we're formulating policies from the state house to the Senate floor to the White House, we've got to work to translate our reasoning into values that are accessible to every one of our citizens, not just members of our own faith community."

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/204016.aspx

Clearly someone who is simply spouting the Mecca party line

stillers4me
07-20-2008, 01:21 PM
But, our nation was created to avoid religious persectution. That our founding fathers were primarily Christian is irrelevant. The fact was, almost all of Europe (back then) was chock full of nations controlled by the Church, particularly the Roman Catholic Church.

Religious persecution was huge back then because if you didn't believe the Roman Catholic way, you were more than just a sinner, you were a criminal.

Being founded by Christians doesn't give Christians any more rights here than it does Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, etc...

As a Soldier, I will defend that right to practice religion against all enemies, foreign and domestic. If it means fighting some home-grown asshole, so be it. We are not a nation of any specific religion, race, sex, or nationality. We are a true melting pot. We speak American not English.

err....I'll get off this soapbox now. You get the idea though.

I still fail to see who is being persecuted in this country due to their religion.

If anything, the religion losing their rights is.... surprise surprise.... the Christians.

xfl2001fan
07-20-2008, 01:22 PM
Thank you Atlanta Dan for that post. I've had to have conversations with my wife about remembering context when dealing with communications. What's said can have different meanings when taking alone or with the rest of the the conversation.

xfl2001fan
07-20-2008, 01:45 PM
I still fail to see who is being persecuted in this country due to their religion.

If anything, the religion losing their rights is.... surprise surprise.... the Christians.

The point of the post wasn't talking about who's being persecuted. The background to our nation was important as one of it's two major principles was freedom of religion and to get rid of the taxation without representation.

Our founding fathers recognized the fact that the right to practice all religion was important, not just the right to practice various forms of Christianity.

Christians are losing rights? When? Do Christians not get to practice their religion? Have any churches been closed down wrongfully?

Yes, prayer was taken out of school. However, whenever I graduated from HS, I was still an active member of FCS (Fellowship for Christian Athletes). We held prayer groups at school in the mornings before homeroom. We held fellowship with other students. I even helped a Jewish girl find the only staff member who was also Jewish so that she could have someone to talk to about her religion at school. It wasn't done during school hours, but it was done on public property.

Maybe a lot more has changed in the 11 years since I left school, but I doubt it's changed that much. I'm pretty sure my old school still has it's FCS, at least it did last year. There were still prayer groups going on (according to the teacher who was still running the program.)

Besides, so long as there are tests, prayer will always be in school.

We are not a Christian nation. We are a nation that is primarily filled with Christians. Our country was founded on principles found in EVERY major religion. The 10 Commandments are as much Judaism as they are Christianity. In fact, the Quran has their version of the 10 Commandments. In some cases, the 10 commandments for the Quran are more indepth than the crapped out version that Christians read.

HometownGal
07-20-2008, 02:21 PM
"I think that the right might worry a bit more about the dangers of sectarianism. Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. .We should acknowledge this and realize that when we're formulating policies from the state house to the Senate floor to the White House, we've got to work to translate our reasoning into values that are accessible to every one of our citizens, not just members of our own faith community"



Obama gives pretty speeches, but Mama always told me never to trust someone who can't look me straight in the eyes. If you watch Obama when he is speaking to a large group of people or the media, he doesn't look at the crowd or the reporter he is replying to. His eyes are wandering aimlessly, quite often fixated at the ceiling.

Sorry, Dan, as I know you are a huge supporter of Obama's and I respect that, but I'm not buying what this guy is trying to peddle.

stillers4me
07-20-2008, 02:26 PM
Obama gives pretty speeches, but Mama always told me never to trust someone who can't look me straight in the eyes. If you watch Obama when he is speaking to a large group of people or the media, he doesn't look at the crowd or the reporter he is replying to. His eyes are wandering aimlessly, quite often fixated at the ceiling.

Sorry, Dan, as I know you are a huge supporter of Obama's and I respect that, but I'm not buying what this guy is trying to peddle.

snake oil, maybe?

CantStop85
07-20-2008, 04:15 PM
If anything, the religion losing their rights is.... surprise surprise.... the Christians.

Yeah...it's so tough in America being a Christian...

:banging:

Black@Gold Forever32
07-20-2008, 04:45 PM
Yeah...it's so tough in America being a Christian...

:banging:

tough indeed......:rofl:

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 05:09 PM
Sorry, Dan, as I know you are a huge supporter of Obama's and I respect that, but I'm not buying what this guy is trying to peddle.

No problem HTG - speaking as someone who would demand a second opinion if W or Cheney said the sun was going to rise in the eastern rather western sky in the morning I know the feeling:drink:

My point in this thread is that regardless of whether someone disagrees or does not believe what Obama (or McCain) says, let's at least stick to debating what was said rather than what someone assumes a candidate might say.

TroysBadDawg
07-20-2008, 05:21 PM
Responding to these sorts of statements makes me the same sort of Sisyphean poster that Preacher becomes when he responds to the Bush bashing, but what is your basis for contending Obama is a Muslim?

Well to start with who took their oath of office on the Koran? Three guess and the first two don't count.

Mosca
07-20-2008, 05:35 PM
Well to start with who took their oath of office on the Koran? Three guess and the first two don't count.


From Politifact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2007/dec/20/chain-email-gets-obama-religion-wrong/),

Obama used a Koran? No, he didn't

By Angie Drobnic Holan
Published on Thursday, December 20th, 2007 at 01:23 p.m.

SUMMARY: An anonymous e-mail claims Barack Obama is a Muslim, attended a madrassa as a boy and took the oath of office on a Koran. The Truth-O-Meter says wrong, wrong and wrong.

In December 2007, the Hillary Clinton campaign asked for the resignations of volunteers who forwarded a chain e-mail falsely saying that Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim. Those firings are just the latest reverberations from a relentless e-mail that has piled up in in-boxes for at least a year.

The e-mail makes a number of specious claims to promote its Manchurian Candidate-style conspiracy theory. It says Obama was raised Muslim and that as a boy he attended a radical Wahabi school in Indonesia. The most recent twist on the e-mail falsely alleges that Obama took his oath of office for the U.S. Senate by swearing on a Koran, the Islamic holy book. The facts, though, are that Obama is a Christian and took the oath of office on a Bible.

Like many Internet smears, it's difficult to tell who’s behind the e-mail and when it got started. The earliest mention we found was on Snopes.com, a Web site devoted to investigating urban legends and other Internet oddities. Snopes checked out the e-mail it received in 2006 and found it false.

Geez, TBD. It's like you believe every single email that gets forwarded to you. Dislike the candidate for the real reasons, not the made up ones. Lord knows there are enough questions about the man based on the facts; when you spread the lies, it actually gives the man MORE credibility than he deserves.

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 05:38 PM
Well to start with who took their oath of office on the Koran? Three guess and the first two don't count.

I assume (hope?) you are joking :sofunny:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2007/dec/20/chain-email-gets-obama-religion-wrong/

If you can get me a link to back your statement please do so

P.S. - not that you presumably want to know, but it was Congressman Keith Ellison of Minnesota a (gasp!) Muslim who was sworn in to office with a Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6718662

CantStop85
07-20-2008, 06:15 PM
Well to start with who took their oath of office on the Koran? Three guess and the first two don't count.

lol

You get your news from the tabloids at the grocery store check-out lines don't you? :flap:

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 07:00 PM
lol

You get your news from the tabloids at the grocery store check-out lines don't you? :flap:

Sometimes you only have time to check out the magazine covers while standing in line

Preacher
07-20-2008, 09:37 PM
AD, CS85


Hey.. According to "The Men in Black," those are the best source of news!!!

http://world.std.com/%7Emica/mib.jpg

CantStop85
07-20-2008, 09:50 PM
AD, CS85


Hey.. According to "The Men in Black," those are the best source of news!!!

http://world.std.com/%7Emica/mib.jpg

"You never used that thing on me before, right?"

:flap:

Atlanta Dan
07-20-2008, 10:01 PM
AD, CS85


Hey.. According to "The Men in Black," those are the best source of news!!!

http://world.std.com/%7Emica/mib.jpg
:sofunny::sofunny::sofunny:

Preacher
07-21-2008, 01:52 AM
"You never used that thing on me before, right?"

:flap:

:chuckle:

Thought you all would like that!

Blitzburgh_Fever
07-21-2008, 02:36 AM
Sometimes you only have time to check out the magazine covers while standing in line

Err, please tell me that's not real? Right? :noidea:

Atlanta Dan
07-21-2008, 06:58 AM
Err, please tell me that's not real? Right? :noidea:

That cover was the subject of much controversy last week - what The New Yorker editors thought was obviously satire to its presumably pro-Obama readership might not be so regarded by an electorate in which 12% still believe Obama is a Muslim (or on some football boards that have posters who believe he was sworn in to office with a Koran :banging:).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/14/AR2008071400655.html

TroysBadDawg
07-21-2008, 07:11 AM
From Politifact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2007/dec/20/chain-email-gets-obama-religion-wrong/),



Geez, TBD. It's like you believe every single email that gets forwarded to you. Dislike the candidate for the real reasons, not the made up ones. Lord knows there are enough questions about the man based on the facts; when you spread the lies, it actually gives the man MORE credibility than he deserves.

I stand corrected it was the Bible but I still don't trust the guy, he has not given a single solution for a problem yet, he wants to consort with the enemy, in my opinion, he is nothing but talk and Hollywood.

He has no background in government, oh wait he worked for ACORN didn't he? That is Government subsidized.

Not to mention he claimed his mentor is Rev. Wright the hater of American whites. The we have his wife who would be the First lady if he were elected. Who flat out loathes the white folk for all the slaves and impoverished black people. But fails to realize the AA have had the benefit in employment, education, and government contracts since the late 70's.

Would I vote for him, I will never vote for a socialist. Be it from either party.

I believe we are in the dark times of the Late Great America.

The political system is corrupt.

The legal system is shattered.

Our money is not worth the paper it is written on. Other Nations now want payment in the EURO, that tell you something.

We can thank our Congress for the above but especially the voters who constantly keep putting the bums and crooks back in office.

Godfather
07-21-2008, 10:38 AM
We can thank our Congress for the above but especially the voters who constantly keep putting the bums and crooks back in office.

Unfortunately, every time we throw the bums out we get another group of assclowns who turn out just as bad.

It's inevitable that we get second-rate politicians because of the sleazy nature of our campaigns. Attacks don't even have to be true anymore (Drudge making up the intern story about Kerry, Dan Blather using obviously fake documents for his W Nationa Guard story, etc.) The only people willing to subject themselves to that kind of garbage are people with no sense of shame, who are just in it for the money and don't care about their reputations.

silver & black
07-21-2008, 11:33 AM
The vast majority of American citizens are Christians.

It still says In God We Trust on our currency.

Our laws are still based on the principles of The Ten Commandments.

We are still swearing our oaths on Bibles.

We are still allowed to worship in any religion we want without interference from the government.

I believe that still makes us a nation based on Christian values and the day all that changes is the day this nation shall fall.

Obama promises change. Be careful what you wish for.

Well said. :drink:

Texasteel
07-21-2008, 01:33 PM
We can thank our Congress for the above but especially the voters who constantly keep putting the bums and crooks back in office.

I know your troubled by the continuing run of incompetent people we seem to keep putting into office, but I think that may be because, most of us don't really care. We vote because we are told it is our duty, and it is, that we are the ones that shape the kind of government we have, and we do, but the problem is we don't pay any attention to these people untill we are asked to vote for them. Then we try to make our choice based on 15 second sound bites on TV.
We need to watch these folks like watch dogs, let them know when they are doing something we don't like. Let them know what our ideas and stands are. Beleave me most of them do not want us to know whats going on in emeral city, an uninformed voter is what most of these people want. We should be shaping their ideas, not letting them shape ours.

CantStop85
07-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Even if everyone starts to actually care about voting, we'll still simply be forced to choose the best of the worst.

TroysBadDawg
07-21-2008, 02:12 PM
Why can't we have a choice in voting? The other choice would be "none of the above"?

revefsreleets
07-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Saw an interesting and thought provoking bit of graffiti over the weekend...it said "If voting actually made a difference, they'd make it illegal".

I don't necessarily concur, but it is interesting, all the apathy and disenfranchisement out there...

Preacher
07-21-2008, 02:43 PM
Saw an interesting and thought provoking bit of graffiti over the weekend...it said "If voting actually made a difference, they'd make it illegal".

I don't necessarily concur, but it is interesting, all the apathy and disenfranchisement out there...

I think the apathy is caused by people knowing that in the end, both candidates will only be a caricature of themselves... half planned by their campaign, the other half painted by the other campaign, and the press is too stupid, too unfair, and too self-absorbed to burn through it.

Then, people have to worry about the press on top of it all. For YEARS it has been said from the right that the press is biased to the left. That is starting to show, with 90+ percent of the press voting democrat all the time, and then the false document scandal last time.

The conservative talk shows, which at one time seemed to be a counterbalance, never had to be worried about showing bias. As a result, they lambast the liberal candidate... furthering that caricature.

Why do I want to vote for someone who seems to me, more like a cartoon than a real human?

Blitzburgh_Fever
07-21-2008, 02:47 PM
I hate to "stir the pot" and humbly respect your opinions, but when they're stated as fact I have some issue. I'm Catholic, and we've done a lot of wrong things in the last 60 years, things I wouldn't want to force other people to "represent" by being part of the Church. I've also seen a lot of crackpot religions (Scientology springs to mind :blah:), but I would never tell these crackpot devotees that they have no right to practice their religion. Still, some of these statements about America being a de facto Christian nation bother me, mostly because I hear them constantly.

The vast majority of American citizens are Christians.


Majority rule does not apply to the rules and laws of the land (on paper anyways). Whites do not get exceptions to laws because they're more numerous than Blacks of Hispanics or Asians etc. If you're a legal citizen, even if you have three arms, nine legs, two hearts, and your skin is colored teal, you have the same rights as any other citizen. I understand what you're saying, but even that is subject to change. In 300 years Scientology could be the majority religion in the United States. Christianity also has a very, very large umbrella of sub-religions. Catholicism and Lutheranism is very different from being a practicing Protestant, for example.


It still says In God We Trust on our currency.

Indeed it does. But it didn't until 1956 when McCarthyism and accusations of lack of faith and patriotism concerned even the lowest of scumbags (same for the "under god" part of the Pledge of Allegiance).


Our laws are still based on the principles of The Ten Commandments.

Relatively few of the Commandments apply to our legal system. The laws that do are found, by far, in the majority of set codes of laws. Using what is typically referred to as the Ten Commandments:

1 does not apply (government can't have no influence on religion)
2 does not apply (you can craft whatever you want for your religion, provided it doesn't violate federal law)
3 does not apply (watch TV, they use the Lord's name in vain constantly)
4 does not apply (America is working 24 days a week, 7 days a year)
5 does not apply (we have a legal way of emancipating yourself, it's not illegal to disrespect your parents in any way)
6 does apply (it also applies to nearly any uniform set of laws in existence)
7 applies here and there, but not usually (you can sleep with people other than your wife/husband, provided it's of legal age and she/he is consenting, but it is grounds for a divorce, so legally it applies)
8 does apply (also in most modern sets of laws)
9 is kinda tricky (you can't testify against him, and you can be hit for libel or slander depending on your mode of "false witness")
10 does not apply (when the government starts telling you what you can think, we have problems)


We are still swearing our oaths on Bibles.

You can swear your oath on the old Testament, the Holy Koran, the Torah, any other major religious book that they have on hand, or you can just raise your right hand and affirm to tell the truth and not perjure yourself. Some states skip the whole thing and just have you raise your right hand and pledge an oath.


We are still allowed to worship in any religion we want without interference from the government.

Agreed, America is great! But this isn't really an exclusive Christian value. It's more of a "We're fed up with governments being told what to do by organized Churches and using religion as a tool of control." value :wink02:. The New Testament preaches forgiveness and understanding of all, but that rarely took place in the 1500+ years following the birth of Christ, particularly with religion. America was the first formal government to impart separation of Church and State, and it was done because nearly every legitimate European government had the Catholic Church being used as a tool of oppression at some time or other. The U.S. respects religion, and when a countries head would change the nation's religious standard and suddenly everyone converted, that's not exactly a sign of respect.


I believe that still makes us a nation based on Christian values and the day all that changes is the day this nation shall fall.

We are a nation based on Christian values, and Greek values, and Roman values, and even Babylonian values (where Iraq, Iran, Syria, and a few other countries are now). Hammurabi and Urn-Ammu, both Mesopotamia rulers, set forth the first known recorded code of law. They contain the spirit of many of the non-religious laws of the Ten Commandments and our own government (though tweaked down for 3+ millenia of understanding :laughing:) I agree though, when the government takes away our freedom of religion, speech, press, etc., it's time to make use of our second ammendment right and throw this mutha over! :chuckle:


Obama promises change. Be careful what you wish for.

I question when anyone promises me anything. I was fortunate enough to see Obama speak at my school earlier this year. The man is very, very charismatic in person and you really get the feeling you can believe in what he's doing. I was also lucky enough to meet President Bush when he came to New Albany (a town about 15 miles from me) in 2006. You get a sincere feeling that he believes completely in what he's doing, and while I don't agree with everything he has done, I can at least say he's doing it because he truly believes it's the right thing to do, not because he's an evil sadistic demon (the people behind him, maybe, but there's always someone of dubious nature in the background of everyone).

Again, I don't want you to feel I'm attacking you personally or your beliefs, but I did want to clarify many of these points that are often misquoted.

Texasteel
07-21-2008, 02:54 PM
Even if everyone starts to actually care about voting, we'll still simply be forced to choose the best of the worst.

But if we pay attention and know what these guys really are the chooses may start getting a little better.

In the end your right, the choose often is the best of a bad choice. I think this year is a fine showcase for that argument. When I vote, and I will vote, I intend to go home and take a long bath, untill I start to feel clean again.

I think the thing to remember is, would you rather have the best of the worst, or the worst of the worst.

Godfather
07-21-2008, 05:16 PM
But if we pay attention and know what these guys really are the chooses may start getting a little better.

In the end your right, the choose often is the best of a bad choice. I think this year is a fine showcase for that argument. When I vote, and I will vote, I intend to go home and take a long bath, untill I start to feel clean again.

I think the thing to remember is, would you rather have the best of the worst, or the worst of the worst.

It could be worse. 2004 was the ultimate douche vs. turd election.

McCain isn't that bad.

stillers4me
07-21-2008, 06:07 PM
Ok.

If we were never a Christian nation to begin with, Why then is Obama making statements about no longer being such? What conclusion is is trying to bring us to?

Be careful what you wish for.

Atlanta Dan
07-21-2008, 06:42 PM
Ok.

If we were never a Christian nation to begin with, Why then is Obama making statements about no longer being such? What conclusion is is trying to bring us to?

Be careful what you wish for.

Why don't you read the quote again

Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers

Leaving aside what you believe Obama really wants, the quote on its face says the U.S. is a more pluralistic society than it was in the past and that public policy should reflect those changes - if you are over 35 years of age and look at the crowd at any mall or any workplace it is hard to disagree with that observation

And as far as being careful what I wish for, thanks for the warning; I will take my chances with Obama or McCain after the last 7 & 1/2 years of a President who claims to be not only right but to carrying out God's marching orders

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310788&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


My Presbyterian heritage preached the doctrine of predestination, but IMO that is not the same thing as claiming to be receiving direct calls from the Lord Almighty to justify your actions.

millwalldavey
07-21-2008, 07:21 PM
Funny thing...

We never were a Christian nation.

A nation cannot be Christian by nature of the belief itself. only individuals can be Christians.

The idea of a Christian nation is a left-over from the constantinianation of the Christian faith.

That we are now a nation of Buddhists, Hindhus, Jews, etc. is something for the country to be proud of, and something for Christians to be ashamed of, since it is our responsibility to share our faith, and we are not as effective as we should be.


That was perfect Preacher!

redst3
07-21-2008, 08:45 PM
[QUOTE=Atlanta Dan;414754]

And as far as being careful what I wish for, thanks for the warning; I will take my chances with Obama or McCain after the last 7 & 1/2 years of a President who claims to be not only right but to carrying out God's marching orders[QUOTE]

I've tried to avoid this area since joining, mainly because we are all Steeler Family (even Rush Limbaugh, who I firmly disagree with on just about everything is a Steelers Fan), but I just have to say that i agree with Atlanta Dan, and its going to be good to finally be rid of Bush.

I've got my preference, but the guy I am not voting for has a lot going for him too. :drink:

We have got to get away from this mad idea that somehow having a stubborn person as a leader means that particular leader is strong.

Frankly, it would be nice to have a person who was a bit more thoughtful.....

millwalldavey
07-21-2008, 10:04 PM
Ok.

If we were never a Christian nation to begin with, Why then is Obama making statements about no longer being such? What conclusion is is trying to bring us to?

Be careful what you wish for.

It is commonly assumed that we are a Christian nation, I guess a lot has to do with escaping from religious persecution back in the day. Relgiously we are extremely diverse and I think its a shame that the Christian religion plays a big hand in the politics of this nation.

No religion should have any voice in the matters of governance of this nation.

missedgehead
07-22-2008, 01:09 PM
This I just received and am quite shocked.

I don't know where the Obama message is at when I tried to quote you here but when I hear my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ start yammering about how this is a "Christian" Nation I am like :doh:. I am a strong Christ Follower and I agree with Obama. As far as this country goes: the United States is a MELTING POT. HELLO. :banging::banging::banging: I do that alot when Christians just start saying that this is a "Christian Nation" ala that Dobbs dude from Focus on the Family, etc. We have followers of Islam, Jews, Hindu, etc, etc. Freedom of Religion is just that: you have a RIGHT to follow any religion you want. Period. Not just Christianity. I do not understand why people are so intolorant of others' religion. As a Christ follower, I love all people, no matter what religion they follow. That is what Christianity is supposed to be about.

Preacher
07-22-2008, 01:43 PM
Why don't you read the quote again

Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers

Leaving aside what you believe Obama really wants, the quote on its face says the U.S. is a more pluralistic society than it was in the past and that public policy should reflect those changes - if you are over 35 years of age and look at the crowd at any mall or any workplace it is hard to disagree with that observation

And as far as being careful what I wish for, thanks for the warning; I will take my chances with Obama or McCain after the last 7 & 1/2 years of a President who claims to be not only right but to carrying out God's marching orders

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=310788&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


My Presbyterian heritage preached the doctrine of predestination, but IMO that is not the same thing as claiming to be receiving direct calls from the Lord Almighty to justify your actions.

OH COME ON.....

Your source is the Palestinian PM SPEAKING TO HAMAS??? HAMAS????

Sorry, that has almost as much validity as the rags at the checkout counter.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
07-22-2008, 02:04 PM
This I just received and am quite shocked.

is his statement false?

Preacher
07-22-2008, 02:13 PM
But, our nation was created to avoid religious persectution. That our founding fathers were primarily Christian is irrelevant. The fact was, almost all of Europe (back then) was chock full of nations controlled by the Church, particularly the Roman Catholic Church.



That actually isn't true. When America was founded, the individual states controlled the church in all the protestant lands. England as a nation had full control over her church, still does. The German princes had control over the religion of their individual fiefdoms and little empires. They would negotiate with the catholic church in power-struggles for things that needed to be done.

Your statement is right a few hundred years prior. But when the nation-state starting coming into existence out of the prior fiefdoms, the church lost much of its control to the nationstate.

Freedom in America wasn't about the state being free of the church. It was about the church being free from the state. Jefferson wasn't the father of that thought, it was actually brought to his attention by two Baptists ministers who were tired of the persecution in the American colonies because they were baptist.

Atlanta Dan
07-22-2008, 02:47 PM
OH COME ON.....

Your source is the Palestinian PM SPEAKING TO HAMAS??? HAMAS????

Sorry, that has almost as much validity as the rags at the checkout counter.


i figured that would draw some return fire:chuckle:

Preacher
07-22-2008, 05:44 PM
i figured that would draw some return fire:chuckle:


:buttkick:

:chuckle:

revefsreleets
07-22-2008, 06:56 PM
Being more pragmatic than anything else, I'll venture forth and say that I don't care if the President worships the Devil, as long as he keeps his personal views separate from matters of State, and he's a good solid leader.

Preacher
07-28-2008, 01:01 AM
But, our nation was created to avoid religious persectution. That our founding fathers were primarily Christian is irrelevant. The fact was, almost all of Europe (back then) was chock full of nations controlled by the Church, particularly the Roman Catholic Church.

Religious persecution was huge back then because if you didn't believe the Roman Catholic way, you were more than just a sinner, you were a criminal.

Being founded by Christians doesn't give Christians any more rights here than it does Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, etc...

As a Soldier, I will defend that right to practice religion against all enemies, foreign and domestic. If it means fighting some home-grown asshole, so be it. We are not a nation of any specific religion, race, sex, or nationality. We are a true melting pot. We speak American not English.



err....I'll get off this soapbox now. You get the idea though.

That is actually very untrue.

When we were founded, it wasn't because the church controlled the state, but because the states controlled the churches. England was the biggest example. The king broke with the Catholic church and created his own church (church of England). When there was a catholic king or queen, the COE was persecuted. When there was a COE king or queen, the catholics were persecuted. Out of that modality, the puritans, separatists, and Baptists emerged, all being persecuted.... by the state, regardless of what church was in power.

The same was true over much of Europe. While the feudal system was in control, the catholic church held much sway. But that system was falling apart from the beginning of the second millennium. The Crusades were partly a political ploy by the catholic church to stop nationalism and thus, nationstates by sending european royalties, military, and others off to battle under a united flag.

However, that also failed, and by the time of Martin Luther (early 1500's), The modern nation-state was well underway to full development in Europe. Furthermore, those states had as much or more control over their territory then the catholic church did-- which was part of the fuel that fed the reformation.

In the US, many of the churches were controlled by the states-- or subservient to them. If you weren't of a particular denomination, much persecution ensued. Matter of fact, the vaunted.... sep. of church and state, was encouraged (and maybe even proposed to) Jefferson in a letter from two Baptist ministers specifically because they did not want the state to have authority over the church.

What they never had an issue with however, was the church... or multiple churches... having a voice in the state.

Dino 6 Rings
07-28-2008, 04:05 PM
This is a Great Country, but it isn't a Christian Nation really.

If you think it ever was a truly Christian Nation ask yourself, when is the last time the United States of America turned the other cheek?

In reality, a Truly Christian Nation would be conquered by an evil empire.

Dino 6 Rings
07-28-2008, 04:14 PM
What bothers me about Obama's statement is that he's pandering to non-christians and simply trying to get their votes. Does he really understand Jewish Heritage and Belief, other than what he has been taught by Farrakkan? Does he really understand Buddism or Hinduism or Wiccan or even the different demoninations of Christianity? Does he know the real difference between a Morman and the Amish? Or a Protestant and a Methodist? really? Does he study religion in his spare time and learn the differences of the cutlures of each? Including the American Indians and even the Shinto of Japan?

Or is he just pandering for the votes of ALL non-christians by taking up the mantle of the left by throwing Jesus under the bus as it seems to be "hip" to do ever since the time that guy considered a crucifix in a cup of piss as art.

Obama should go throw some dung on a painting of the Virgin Mary and call himself an artist. Instead shiiiit poors out of his mouth and he calls himself a politician.

Preacher
07-28-2008, 04:25 PM
What bothers me about Obama's statement is that he's pandering to non-christians and simply trying to get their votes. Does he really understand Jewish Heritage and Belief, other than what he has been taught by Farrakkan? Does he really understand Buddism or Hinduism or Wiccan or even the different demoninations of Christianity? Does he know the real difference between a Morman and the Amish? Or a Protestant and a Methodist? really? Does he study religion in his spare time and learn the differences of the cutlures of each? Including the American Indians and even the Shinto of Japan?

Or is he just pandering for the votes of ALL non-christians by taking up the mantle of the left by throwing Jesus under the bus as it seems to be "hip" to do ever since the time that guy considered a crucifix in a cup of piss as art.

Obama should go throw some dung on a painting of the Virgin Mary and call himself an artist. Instead shiiiit poors out of his mouth and he calls himself a politician.

Sadly...

Obama and the left has learned from the last eight yeas of Bush and Rove driving "Christian" issues for votes, then drop the issue.

stlrtruck
07-29-2008, 07:58 AM
In reality, a Truly Christian Nation would be conquered by an evil empire.

What? Seriously? The Old Testament is full of stories of Israel destroying evil empires. Not because of their strength but because of their faith in God. However, it's also full of stories of Israel being taken over by evil empires because of their lack of obedience to God's word.

IMHO, I feel that some of the things that this country has gone through is because of their lack of faith in the Lord above as well as the lack of obedience to His word. I think it would be wonderful to see what this country could become if people stopped following the flesh and began living in the Spirit. I truly believe we'd see that transformation, that change, the freedom that people state they want. More importantly there would probably be massive change within the American Family!!

But those are just my opinions.

xfl2001fan
07-29-2008, 08:20 AM
What? Seriously? The Old Testament is full of stories of Israel destroying evil empires. Not because of their strength but because of their faith in God. However, it's also full of stories of Israel being taken over by evil empires because of their lack of obedience to God's word.

IMHO, I feel that some of the things that this country has gone through is because of their lack of faith in the Lord above as well as the lack of obedience to His word. I think it would be wonderful to see what this country could become if people stopped following the flesh and began living in the Spirit. I truly believe we'd see that transformation, that change, the freedom that people state they want. More importantly there would probably be massive change within the American Family!!

But those are just my opinions.

You're referring to a Jewish faith. The people you refer to were not Christians as Christ didn't come along until well after those incidents. For that matter, Christ was born to a Jewish mother.

Finding more faith (regardless of religion) would do this country a lot of good. Unfortunately, we are in a very vicious cycle right now where parents want more for their children than they had growing up. This has led to less value on the things we receive as we do less to earn them.

I don't need faith to teach my kids values. Faith does help as major religions all emphasize those values that are necessary for a turn around in the mindset of our culture.

However, I have friends who are wiccans and their kids are great. They work hard around the house (and don't get an allowance for it). They are polite. They are independent of mind. They value the possessions that they do have and don't begrudge their parents for the things they don't have. That's not to say they don't want more "things", but they truly show great values.

I'll take that over the "Christian brat" who has everything and values nothing. Who looks down their nose at others because they don't share the same faith, don't have as much stuff, or whatever whim they come up with.

Yes, I know both types of these kids because they are in my oldest daughters Girl Scout troop. That I share a faith with the second child and her parents is irrelevant to me. They've done far less to help society (as a whole) out because of their actions/inactions. I have no problem inviting the wiccan family over to my house for dinner (or going to their house) because I know (despite our differences in faith) that there is a mutual respect and a like-mindedness that is necessary to better ourselves.

They know my message, I know theirs. Ultimately, until we die, none of us will know who has it right and who has it wrong.

stlrtruck
07-29-2008, 01:49 PM
You're referring to a Jewish faith. The people you refer to were not Christians as Christ didn't come along until well after those incidents. For that matter, Christ was born to a Jewish mother.

Finding more faith (regardless of religion) would do this country a lot of good. Unfortunately, we are in a very vicious cycle right now where parents want more for their children than they had growing up. This has led to less value on the things we receive as we do less to earn them.

I don't need faith to teach my kids values. Faith does help as major religions all emphasize those values that are necessary for a turn around in the mindset of our culture.

However, I have friends who are wiccans and their kids are great. They work hard around the house (and don't get an allowance for it). They are polite. They are independent of mind. They value the possessions that they do have and don't begrudge their parents for the things they don't have. That's not to say they don't want more "things", but they truly show great values.

I'll take that over the "Christian brat" who has everything and values nothing. Who looks down their nose at others because they don't share the same faith, don't have as much stuff, or whatever whim they come up with.

Yes, I know both types of these kids because they are in my oldest daughters Girl Scout troop. That I share a faith with the second child and her parents is irrelevant to me. They've done far less to help society (as a whole) out because of their actions/inactions. I have no problem inviting the wiccan family over to my house for dinner (or going to their house) because I know (despite our differences in faith) that there is a mutual respect and a like-mindedness that is necessary to better ourselves.

They know my message, I know theirs. Ultimately, until we die, none of us will know who has it right and who has it wrong.

My statement was not in as much about the Jewish people as it was to their actions or lack their of, towards God - their obedience or disobedience. And while Jesus is Jewish, it is through his death on the cross and our receiving him as our Lord and Saviour that we get to heaven - his obedience to God, gave us the privilege to get access to heaven. (and yes this was shortened for length of post reasons)

I disagree with your statement that finding faith, regardless of religion would do this world some good. Personally, I believe this country needs God to be completely involved in order to be turned around. While I'm not perfect, I work on my relationship with Jesus Christ daily. The problem is my flesh gets in the way and that's hard to overcome some days. However, it's not my job to judge others - that's for Christ to do. I don't appreaciate Christians that look down off the end of their nose at others either. As I have read in scripture (John 3:17) For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him, I'm told and reminded that I'm no better than any one else on this planet. I can't stand kids that moan and complain every time they're asked to do something at home (without getting paid), and then think they have some right to be able to request money to go out with friends or buy the latest fad. I've tried to instill in my children Godly principle, respect, and honor for everyone they come in contact with and when I don't see it - I correct it.

As for your wiccan neighbors have you ever shared God's word with them? As for the "Christian family, have you ever spoke to them about their children's (or their) behavior? (just curious)

But I digress, my point being is that if we were a complete "Christian" nation, we wouldn't necessarily be overtaken by an evil empire. Because if we continued to rely on God, then He would meet all our needs - even those requiring battle.

xfl2001fan
07-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Sorry, the initial reference I made was due to your response. You were making disbelieving comments about a Truly Christian Nation would get dominated by an evil empire.

The Old Testament (Jewish) was more of an eye for an eye type setup. Jesus teachings were more in line with "turn the other cheek".

That's probably why this guy thinks that a Christian dominated society would be easily subdued.

I've shared my beliefs, but they choose to respectfully disagree. They've shared their beliefs, which I've chosen to respectfully disagree. (So they're basically Good Samaritans)

As for the other family, we have talked some. They tend to avoid my wife and I. We've both been divorced and aren't looked upon favorably by some of the "stricter" sects of Christianity. I'm also a Soldier. Some Christians struggle with the idea of me being a Soldier. To that end, I give them a parable of my own.

If God/Jesus is our Sheperd and we are his flock. Then the majority of this flock is filled with sheep. However, when the wolves come out to play, the wolfhounds (such as myself) are there to protect the flock.

Many of the sheep only smell canine. I walk like a wolf. I talk like a wolf. They smell the blood. They see the fangs, claws and carnage. And that's all that they see. They don't understand the difference. I don't go looking for trouble, but when I'm called to duty, I have to be every bit as ferocious as the wolves I fight.

Some sheep will always only see a wolf though.

stlrtruck
07-30-2008, 07:52 AM
Sorry, the initial reference I made was due to your response. You were making disbelieving comments about a Truly Christian Nation would get dominated by an evil empire.

Sorry I didn't put it out there that well. Sometimes my thoughts don't complete themselves when I type them out.

The Old Testament (Jewish) was more of an eye for an eye type setup. Jesus teachings were more in line with "turn the other cheek".

That's probably why this guy thinks that a Christian dominated society would be easily subdued.

Even JC tossed a few temple tables in his day. And while his teachings were about love and "turn the other cheek" it was also about being with God in relationship. And in the Old Testament, the actions that happened were based on the Israelites relationship with God.

I've shared my beliefs, but they choose to respectfully disagree. They've shared their beliefs, which I've chosen to respectfully disagree. (So they're basically Good Samaritans)

That's cool. I have a neighbor that's the same way. While we share our beliefs, we do respectfully disagree. And they too have raised two wonderfully respectful children.

As for the other family, we have talked some. They tend to avoid my wife and I. We've both been divorced and aren't looked upon favorably by some of the "stricter" sects of Christianity. I'm also a Soldier. Some Christians struggle with the idea of me being a Soldier. To that end, I give them a parable of my own.

The "other" family is a prime example as to why non-believers will never be believers. They cast judgment and doubt over others. I'd hate to see what they thought about me, never married until I met my wife who had been married before. I never understood why Christians have a problem with Christian soldiers. I mean really, if they would read the bible they would come to the conclusion that we're all soldiers. It's just that some of us do battle in more ways than spiritual. I turn back to the Old Testament when the wall was being rebuilt - people were doing their jobs but they also had swords to protect against attack.

If God/Jesus is our Sheperd and we are his flock. Then the majority of this flock is filled with sheep. However, when the wolves come out to play, the wolfhounds (such as myself) are there to protect the flock.

Many of the sheep only smell canine. I walk like a wolf. I talk like a wolf. They smell the blood. They see the fangs, claws and carnage. And that's all that they see. They don't understand the difference. I don't go looking for trouble, but when I'm called to duty, I have to be every bit as ferocious as the wolves I fight.

Some sheep will always only see a wolf though.

Some people have never had the privilege to serve in the Armed Services and while I never became a lifer, I have served and I do understand the mentality and greatly appreciate it. For if it wasn't for people like you, this country would probably be speaking German or some other foreign language other than English. And with that I say, thanks for sacrificing yourself and your family and being that soldier.