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View Full Version : I'm surprised this got printed (from ireland)


Mosca
07-24-2008, 09:04 AM
I just read this, and I find it thought provoking, absolutely. This is not a US issue, but an international one, and frankly I have no comment other than that the writer might have used less inflammatory language at the end, after he'd already made his point. I have to defer to someone who has been there.


Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/africa-is-giving-nothing-to-anyone--apart-from-aids-1430428.html)

Mosca
07-24-2008, 10:03 AM
His followup article (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/writing-what-i-should-have-written-so-many-years-ago-1437779.html)

tony hipchest
07-25-2008, 08:56 AM
as harsh as it is, theres alot of biological truths to what he says. the global overpopulation "scare" will probably be received with the same skepticism as global warming and declining rain forests. but africa is giving more to the world than just aids.

how bout a rare metal needed for all of our gaming consoles?

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/playstation-2-component-incites-african-war/1231745

Allegedly, the demand for coltan prompted Rwandan military groups and western mining companies to plunder hundreds of millions of dollars worth of the rare metal, often by forcing prisoners-of-war and even children to work in the country's coltan mines.

"Kids in Congo were being sent down mines to die so that kids in Europe and America could kill imaginary aliens in their living rooms," said Ex-British Parliament Member Oona King.



africa is the birthplace of the human race. perhaps what is going on there today just foreshadows what will go on in the rest of the world 100 years from now.

revefsreleets
07-25-2008, 09:03 AM
The guy makes many valid points. But what is the solution? I think he's saying let them starve to death.

And maybe he's right.

Hammer Of The GODS
07-25-2008, 10:31 AM
Excellent read.

Sometimes it's unpopular to be intelligent!

This guy is writing the reality of the situation. I say bravo!

America will never support the idea of letting these people starve. Want to know why?

We feed, clothe, and house degenerate criminals who are more than likley to return to society to steal, rape, and kill us all over again.

So why not give an african kid a sandwhich only to see him use the energy derived from it to make his life and many others miserable?

Sometimes it's unpopular to be intelligent!

Mosca
07-25-2008, 11:35 AM
Thing is, he also makes the valid point; how can you let these people starve? But, if you feed them, they will kill you!

xfl2001fan
07-25-2008, 11:50 AM
If it's a matter of taking the lesser of two evils, then you let natural selection take over. It's a hard reality to face, but they've done nothing to improve their own conditions.

Mankind oftentimes forgets that natural selection (only the strong survive and such) is not a bad thing in and of itself.

I hate to sound cold hearted, but I'm all for letting them starve. There are starving children here in America that I feel my money would be put to better use. Generally speaking, the average US citizen will do more for the world than the average Ethiopian.

There are starving children in Japan that I would rather give my money to. The average Japanese does more for the world than the average Ethiopian.

It might seem unfair, but whomever said life was fair? Nature sure as hell doesn't give a damn about any of us. And we've all done more than enough harm to nature.

revefsreleets
07-25-2008, 04:30 PM
Darwinism, especially social Darwinism stops being popular the second the liberals leave the textbooks with it. It's certainly not allowed in school, where "no one is a failure".

Bullshit. It's eons of evolution that got us to this place...and it's also the prime directive. Don't mess with primitive civilizations...let them run their course.

Mosca
07-25-2008, 05:18 PM
Darwinism, especially social Darwinism stops being popular the second the liberals leave the textbooks with it. It's certainly not allowed in school, where "no one is a failure".

Bullshit. It's eons of evolution that got us to this place...and it's also the prime directive. Don't mess with primitive civilizations...let them run their course.

I don't think that liberalism has anything to do with it; Myers freely admits that 20 years ago, he was giving money himself, and writing to ask others for help. Yes, he says he had doubts, but a hungry child doesn't have any politics, just hunger. Or, the urge to help is human, not liberal or conservative.

What he is asking is, is giving food and money the best way to help, given what the recipients do with it? Does our generosity contribute to the overall suffering of the continent? I have to say he makes a good argument.

The social order of Africa is broken, and money and food won't fix it. But no one has an answer for what will, either. Take out the fact that he's pissed at having contributed to today's horror, and that's what you're left with. That for now, it's better to NOT help... regardless of how badly you want to.

Godfather
07-25-2008, 05:47 PM
I don't think that liberalism has anything to do with it; Myers freely admits that 20 years ago, he was giving money himself, and writing to ask others for help. Yes, he says he had doubts, but a hungry child doesn't have any politics, just hunger. Or, the urge to help is human, not liberal or conservative.

What he is asking is, is giving food and money the best way to help, given what the recipients do with it? Does our generosity contribute to the overall suffering of the continent? I have to say he makes a good argument.

The social order of Africa is broken, and money and food won't fix it. But no one has an answer for what will, either. Take out the fact that he's pissed at having contributed to today's horror, and that's what you're left with. That for now, it's better to NOT help... regardless of how badly you want to.

The best way to help is not just feed them (which simply kicks the can down the road), but to figure out how to produce an agricultural surplus in different parts of Africa and help them develop the infrastructure and knowledge to do it. Then they can take care of themselves, and they will be able to expand their economy beyond subsistence farming.

Preventing malaria is an important step, though. One important reason for the high birthrate is that your only old-age security is your children, and you have to have as many as possible in hopes that one or two will live to be adults.

revefsreleets
07-26-2008, 06:44 PM
I do think liberalism must be called to the mat when it comes to the great dichotomy of this issue. They try to "have it both ways". Darwinism works versus Creationism (and they are absolutely right), but they try to deny it's existence in the macrocosm. The fittest DO survive and flourish by dominating/eradicating the weaker.

Not giving kids F's when they fail, having no winners and losers in sporting events, etc, etc is not a conservative position, and it denies every single tenet Darwin set forth.

That's the issue I'm talking about, and it does have some relevancy here. How many times do we see knee jerk reactions from both ends of the spectrum on complex issues? This board is a great example of it. Conservatives are just as guilty of it on certain issues as well.

Perhaps sometimes the harsher reality IS the better solution? Maybe all the World's problems can't be solved? Maybe they shouldn't be?

I go back to Freakonomics position that abortion is what stopped the upward trend of violence in the US(and that's not up for debate...the authors clearly state their case and set forth all the empirical data to back it up). Africa needs a "purge", and as callous and cold and awful as it is to say, the truth is that if we don't let nature do it one way, it'll do it on it's own in another probably far worse way. AIDS may have just been a first attempt, but "Captain Trips" or something just like it may very well be next. Nature always finds an order and a way to balance itself, and we probably need to stop interfering on BOTH ends (Global Warming (in it's generic accepted meaning) vs. "Do Goodism")

Mosca
07-26-2008, 07:54 PM
I think it's more anthropomorphism; assuming that they are like us. They are like us in that they are human and they suffer, but with a completely different set of mores.

We think that all we have to do is get them over the hump, but the leaders have found a very effective way to use the system keep power; and evicting one strong man simply opens a hole for the next.

That's just my take on it; I have to confess almost complete ignorance of the situation's complexities. I really should know more, seeing as how my father's cousin is Sister Janice McLaughlin (google the name). She's been imprisoned in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe).

revefsreleets
07-26-2008, 08:28 PM
That sucks. Sorry...