PDA

View Full Version : Camp Confidential: Steelers have talent, momentum to excel in 2008 (ESPN)


STEELtownHAVOX
08-05-2008, 02:51 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=walker_james&id=3520086&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

LATROBE, Pa. -- The Pittsburgh Steelers, the reigning champions of the AFC North, are looking to build on that momentum in 2008.

This marks the second season for Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin, who did a solid job of getting Pittsburgh to 10 wins and a playoff berth during his first season at the helm.

Now, Tomlin and the Steelers want more.

AFC North

ESPN.com's James Walker writes about all things AFC North in his division blog.

• Blog network: NFL Nation
This team certainly has talent. Pittsburgh returns a majority of its starters from last year's top-ranked defense. And the Steelers also added offensive firepower in the draft with its first-round pick, running back Rashard Mendenhall, and its second-round pick, receiver Limas Sweed, to go with a solid core of players on that side of the football.

But the Steelers are not without holes, particularly along the offensive line, and they have several more questions heading into this season.

Key questions

1. Can Pittsburgh overcome a tough schedule?

No team in the NFL has a tougher schedule than the Steelers. With a .598 opponent winning percentage, the team will get very few breathers during a grueling 16-game season.

The schedule includes the NFC East, which had three playoff teams in 2007, and the reigning Super Bowl champion New York Giants.

But the key will be Pittsburgh's ability to win within the AFC North. The Steelers went 5-1 in the division last season, helping them win a tiebreaker over Cleveland after sweeping the Browns last season.

Ten wins likely will win the division again this year and give Pittsburgh, at the very least, a home playoff game. But the Steelers' dominance in the division surely will be tested this year by a young, up-and-coming Browns team that had seven Pro Bowlers last season.

The Baltimore Ravens also match up well with Pittsburgh every year, in addition to the Cincinnati Bengals with their high-powered offense.

2. Will the offensive line protect Big Ben?

Ben Roethlisberger is a large quarterback at 6-foot-5, 241 pounds. But that's no excuse for the offensive line to allow an astounding 93 sacks the past two seasons.

No matter how you slice it, pass protection will be a big issue in Pittsburgh.

Either Roethlisberger, coming off a $102 million contract extension this offseason, will be protected and the Steelers will be serious contenders, or the offensive line will fall apart and prevent Pittsburgh from competing with elite teams in the AFC such as the New England Patriots, Indianapolis Colts, San Diego Chargers and last year's nemesis -- the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Pittsburgh signed free agent Justin Hartwig to solidify the center position, which was arguably its weakest last season. Unproven guard Chris Kemoeatu (triceps) just practiced for the first time on Monday, and he's trying to replace former Steeler and seven-time Pro Bowler Alan Faneca. Veteran guard Kendall Simmons has started 14 or more games five straight years and is the most reliable of the group. Left tackle Marvel Smith is returning from back surgery, and Willie Colon is leading Max Starks in the competition for the right tackle spot.

3. Can Roethlisberger ascend to the elite QBs?

The pass protection issue goes hand in hand with Roethlisberger's development as one of the NFL's elite quarterbacks. But based on the way he has been throwing the football during the spring and summer, Roethlisberger appears ready to ascend to previously unseen heights in 2008.

Roethlisberger had a stellar minicamp in the spring and hasn't slowed his momentum so far in training camp. He's coming off a career year in which he threw for 3,154 yards and 31 touchdowns, and he was one of only three quarterbacks to have a triple-digit passer rating.

Roethlisberger has reached the status of a Pro Bowl quarterback after making his first trip to Hawaii last season. But he is not yet considered NFL quarterback royalty in the mold of the New England Patriots' Tom Brady and the Indianapolis Colts' Peyton Manning.

With continued improvement and another deep run into the postseason, you can start to put "Big Ben" in that conversation. If Roethlisberger can get rid of the ball faster and get improved pass protection up front, expect another monster year.

Market Watch

Rookie Rashard Mendenhall will add much needed depth to the Steelers' running attack.
Stock in Pittsburgh's running back position was upgraded with the addition of Mendenhall.

The Steelers were hurt by their lack of depth last season when Willie Parker suffered a broken leg, and now they have Parker back and very good insurance in Mendenhall.

Some scouts felt Mendenhall was the second-best tailback in the draft behind Darren McFadden of the Oakland Raiders. Still, Mendenhall surprisingly fell to the No. 23 spot to Pittsburgh and was the fifth running back taken.

Although Mendenhall will be a backup, Pittsburgh is devising ways to get him acclimated into the offense. There will be packages in which the Steelers will use both Parker and Mendenhall in the backfield simultaneously.

Newcomer to watch

Second-year linebacker LaMarr Woodley will get his first chance to be a full-time starter this season. Woodley showed flashes in a reserve role in 2007 as a rookie.

Woodley had four sacks and proved that he could get to the quarterback, a skill that is vital for the outside linebacker position in Pittsburgh. Woodley will replace Clark Haggans, who signed with the Arizona Cardinals.

But the Steelers will need more from Woodley this season as the starter. He only had 14 total tackles last season.

Observation deck

Former first-round pick Lawrence Timmons also will be relied upon as a versatile backup in Pittsburgh. He is currently the first backup middle linebacker but also has enough ability to fill in at outside linebacker if necessary. ... Entering his 12th season, starting receiver Hines Ward was voted as the NFL's smartest offensive player (non-quarterback) this year by league head coaches. ... The Steelers have faced the injury bug this summer. Key players such as safety Troy Polamalu (hamstring), linebacker James Harrison (groin), guard Kendall Simmons (shoulder) and kicker Daniel Sepulveda (knee) all have injuries. Only Sepulveda's torn ACL injury is serious. He will have surgery on Wednesday and is expected to miss the entire 2008 season. ... Last year's Heisman Trophy candidate Dennis Dixon was taken in the fifth round and could turn out to be a decent player for Pittsburgh. He is currently the No. 3 quarterback and could find his way onto the field on trick plays.

James Walker covers the NFL for ESPN.com.

Hapa
08-05-2008, 03:11 PM
Nice read, thanks.

SCSTILLER
08-05-2008, 03:19 PM
The game against the Giants will be a true test for our offensive line. Even though the Giants Strahan retired, if our O-line is as bad as it was last year the Giants game will be ugly. I do think that this is the year Ben becomes a top 3 QB!

Edman
08-05-2008, 03:23 PM
There is no denying that this year's schedule is ridiculous.

-You should know better than anyone that Jacksonville and New England have been complete pains in the asses for the Steelers. Even worse, they play both on the road this year. We couldn't beat Jax or NE at Heinz, and we haven't fared any better on the road against them recently.
-San Diego has the Pass rush to expose the offensive line. Loaded on both sides of the ball.
-Indy, as long as they have Manning, will be tough to beat.
-Washington and Philadelphia have to potential to be one of those senseless road trap games we seem to play bad in or potentially lose.
-New York, like San Diego. can expose the O-Line with that Pass Rush.
-Cowboys are good as well. With the way our D has been torched recently, they have the type of passing game to really screw us over.
-Baltimore always plays the Steelers tough.
-The Browns seemingly improved.
-The Bengals are the Bengals.
-Tennesee has Vince Young, and once again, a strong D-Line. Mobile QB's who can scramble seem to give the Steelers fits as well.
-Even Houston is no pushover.

The Steelers could just as easily go 6-10(or worse) with this schedule as make the playoffs. If it's more of the same from last year when Pittsburgh sleepwalked toward the end of the season and getting Ben killed with 40+ more sacks, kiss the playoffs goodbye.

STEELtownHAVOX
08-05-2008, 03:25 PM
The Steelers could just as easily go 6-10 with this schedule as make the playoffs.

sad, but could be true. Hopefully we get at least 10 wins again.

fansince'76
08-05-2008, 03:41 PM
There is no denying that this year's schedule is ridiculous.

-You should know better than anyone that Jacksonville and New England have been complete pains in the asses for the Steelers.
-San Diego has the Pass rush to expose the offensive line. Loaded on both sides of the ball.
-Indy, as long as they have Manning, will be tough to beat.
-Washington and Philadelphia have to potential to be one of those senseless road trap games we seem to play bad in or potentially lose.
-New York, like San Diego. can expose the O-Line with that Pass Rush.
-Cowboys are good as well. With the way our D has been torched recently, they have the type of passing game to really screw us over.
-Baltimore always plays the Steelers tough.
-The Browns seemingly improved.
-The Bengals are the Bengals.
-Tennesee has Vince Young, and once again, a strong D-Line. Mobile QB's who can scramble seem to give the Steelers fits as well.
-Even Houston is no pushover.

The Steelers could just as easily go 6-10(or worse) with this schedule as make the playoffs. If it's more of the same from last year when Pittsburgh sleepwalked toward the end of the season and getting Ben killed with 40+ more sacks, kiss the playoffs goodbye.

We played two of our worst games of the season against Jax last year and lost both games by a combined 9 points. If we would have brought our "C" game, those games are wins.

New England, granted, has had our number.

San Diego, loaded talentwise, but I still seriously question Norv Turner as the HC.

Indy, yep, they're tough.

Washington and Philly are both very winnable games, IMO.

Many folks are in awe of the Giants' D because of the Super Bowl. I don't share that awe. The Pats ran out of gas by the time the Super Bowl rolled around and the Giants played above themselves. The fact remains that they got lit up for 45 points against the Cowboys in the beginning of the season, and the Pats put up almost 40 on them in the last game of the season. This ain't the '85 Bears or '76 Steelers D we're facing here, folks. They're good on D, but not great.

Cowboys are overrated, IMO. Wade Phillips. 'Nuff said.

We blew the Ratbirds off the field in the first game and lost to them the second game simply because we took the last game off and rested our starters for the playoffs - well, the ones that were still healthy at that point, anyway.

Browns - will be tougher, but still both very winnable games, IMO.

Bengals - should be two wins, and will be very worried if that doesn't happen.

Vince Young? I'll worry about him when he learns how to play QB as opposed to being another RB who lines up behind center.

Houston? We could very well lose this one with our annoying habit of playing down to our competition in recent years.

Accuse me of drinking the Kool-Aid, but I see at LEAST 10 wins on this schedule.

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 04:34 PM
If Roethlisberger can get rid of the ball faster and get improved pass protection up front
To tie in with this (as well as comments that have been made previously.)

I was reading the latest edition ESPN the Magazine and on page 112 in the "Hot Reads" section:

Grim fact No.1: Ben Roethlisberger has taken 93 sacks the past two seasons, second only to Jon Kitna.
Grim fact No. 2: The Steelers O-line lost LG Alan Faneca to the Jets in the off-season. No wonder O-coordinator Bruce Arians is harping on his QB to make quick decisions and to audible out of bad situations more this season...

Sounds like your O-coordinator is agreeing that he needs to make his reads quicker. Unless you think he's a Browns troll too...

I agree he's a good QB, but if the O-line doesn't shape up soon, he'll be facing the injury bug that could destroy a potentially great QB.

steelersfanman92
08-05-2008, 07:00 PM
I agree they need to get the ball out quicker and go to some more three step drops instead of all the deeper routes with the 5 and 7 step drops

slashsteel
08-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Ben is already to elite status if you ask me. What more does the guy need to prove?

The other two questions are a work in progress.............

ShutDown24
08-05-2008, 08:29 PM
Ben is already to elite status if you ask me. What more does the guy need to prove?

Ben is undisputedly already an elite quarterback. Every player in the league can make improvements though.

HometownGal
08-05-2008, 09:09 PM
Grim fact No.1: Ben Roethlisberger has taken 93 sacks the past two seasons, second only to Jon Kitna.
Grim fact No. 2: The Steelers O-line lost LG Alan Faneca to the Jets in the off-season. No wonder O-coordinator Bruce Arians is harping on his QB to make quick decisions and to audible out of bad situations more this season...


Sorry - just couldn't resist . . . .

For the Browns:

Grim Fact #1: The Browns can't get the Steelers' dominance of them out of their heads, so count on another two ass kickins this season. :chuckle: :tt02:

Grim Fact #2: The Browns seem to always pop their wad too little too late.

Grim Fact #3: :sign03:

Grim Fact #4: Did I mention - :sign03: :chuckle:

Gary - great post! :drink::tt02:

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 09:22 PM
Just keep in mind, I am merely writing (word for word) what I read. I believe this edition of ESPN the Magazine will hit the stands on the 11th of August so you can read for yourselves. (There are perks to being in the military and having a USO office that works hard to take care of my particular group of units!)

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 09:41 PM
Ben is undisputedly already an elite quarterback. Every player in the league can make improvements though.

Undisputedly? That means there is no argument against him? What about the number of fumbles he had last season? He cleans that up, you're more on target. What about the number of sacks he's taken the last two seasons? Elite QBs know when to get rid of the ball (and do so). That's an argument against him.

He was sacked more times last season than Peyton has been in 2.5 seasons. He's taken more sacks in 2 seasons than Peyton did in 5+ seasons combined.

Last season he took exactly as many sacks as Tom Brady did in the last 2 seasons.

I don't doubt that he has the capability to be a great QB. But to use such a strong word as undisputed seems folly. The only thing that is really undisputed is what has already happened. (His TD passes thrown, his QB rating, etc...) Nothing in the future is guaranteed.

The football fan in me says I'd like to see him cut down on his sack totals and his fumbles (per drop back) before I'll call him anything other than a really good and really dangerous QB. Maybe a quicker West Coast offense is what he needs to get in order to move to the next level. The Browns fan in me hopes that it won't matter, lol.

The football fan in me says he's on the cusp, and if the O-line (and shorter/quicker routes) work out, the Brady/Manning debate will be about who is #2a and #2b in the league. The Browns fan in me hopes that the changes won't matter and that we'll be able to generate more pressure to add questions as to his ability.

SteelersMongol
08-05-2008, 09:47 PM
Nice post. Thanks 4 sharing. Though, i think no games should B taken lighter, as I still remember some games from the last two seasons.

Undisputedly? That means there is no argument against him? What about the number of fumbles he had last season? He cleans that up, you're more on target. What about the number of sacks he's taken the last two seasons? Elite QBs know when to get rid of the ball (and do so). That's an argument against him.

He was sacked more times last season than Peyton has been in 2.5 seasons. He's taken more sacks in 2 seasons than Peyton did in 5+ seasons combined.

Last season he took exactly as many sacks as Tom Brady did in the last 2 seasons.

I don't doubt that he has the capability to be a great QB. But to use such a strong word as undisputed seems folly. The only thing that is really undisputed is what has already happened. (His TD passes thrown, his QB rating, etc...) Nothing in the future is guaranteed.

...

Only QB who is "better," statistically, than Ben is Tom "Cheating" Brady. Now assuming he can't cheat no more by stealing def signals, Ben will rise 2 the top. :tt03:

fansince'76
08-05-2008, 09:58 PM
Undisputedly? That means there is no argument against him? What about the number of fumbles he had last season? He cleans that up, you're more on target. What about the number of sacks he's taken the last two seasons? Elite QBs know when to get rid of the ball (and do so). That's an argument against him.

He was sacked more times last season than Peyton has been in 2.5 seasons. He's taken more sacks in 2 seasons than Peyton did in 5+ seasons combined.

Last season he took exactly as many sacks as Tom Brady did in the last 2 seasons.

I don't doubt that he has the capability to be a great QB. But to use such a strong word as undisputed seems folly. The only thing that is really undisputed is what has already happened. (His TD passes thrown, his QB rating, etc...) Nothing in the future is guaranteed.

The football fan in me says I'd like to see him cut down on his sack totals and his fumbles (per drop back) before I'll call him anything other than a really good and really dangerous QB. Maybe a quicker West Coast offense is what he needs to get in order to move to the next level. The Browns fan in me hopes that it won't matter, lol.

The football fan in me says he's on the cusp, and if the O-line (and shorter/quicker routes) work out, the Brady/Manning debate will be about who is #2a and #2b in the league. The Browns fan in me hopes that the changes won't matter and that we'll be able to generate more pressure to add questions as to his ability.

Remember the escape move Eli made in the Super Bowl to be able to get the ball downfield to Tyree? Ben makes plays like that on an almost weekly basis. In the same game, did you notice how Brady crumbled under the pressure when he didn't get 5 minutes to sit back back there to throw it? Don't denigrate Ben because his line doesn't give him enough time. And as far as fumbles go, Ben had 9 last year. Manning and Brady both had 6. In '06, Ben had 5 fumbles while Manning had 2. Brady had 12 that year.

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 10:13 PM
There's one fan who doesn't automatically dismiss my thoughts, lol.

Last season was a breakout season for Ben. He may not (again MAY being the appropriate word here) be able to do that again.

Last season was the only season he threw for over 20 TDs. I know what's been said regarding the offseason changes, but there's nothing to say that he won't come back down to earth after last season's lil Pittsburgh Gem.

Until I see him repeat last season, he'll remind me of the year that Daunte Culpepper almost won the MVP, except for that record breaking season by Peyton Manning (without the cheating.) Yes, he's likely to have a better career than Daunte...but still. One really good statistical season does not make on an elite QB.

tony hipchest
08-05-2008, 10:15 PM
this article should point out that ben threw 32 td's (not 31) and return all defensive starters. all the steelers 2nd teamers on defense are in their 2nd year or greater...

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Remember the escape move Eli made in the Super Bowl to be able to get the ball downfield to Tyree? Ben makes plays like that on an almost weekly basis. In the same game, did you notice how Brady crumbled under the pressure when he didn't get 5 minutes to sit back back there to throw it? Don't denigrate Ben because his line doesn't give him enough time.

Not trying to make it like it's a Ben bashing session. Mostly I'm making a point on the choice of wording. Undisputed is a very strong word. I've seen Ben make far too many plays for my comfort level as a Browns fan.

tony hipchest
08-05-2008, 10:21 PM
There's one fan who doesn't automatically dismiss my thoughts, lol.

Last season was a breakout season for Ben. He may not (again MAY being the appropriate word here) be able to do that again.

Last season was the only season he threw for over 20 TDs. I know what's been said regarding the offseason changes, but there's nothing to say that he won't come back down to earth after last season's lil Pittsburgh Gem.

Until I see him repeat last season, he'll remind me of the year that Daunte Culpepper almost won the MVP, except for that record breaking season by Peyton Manning (without the cheating.) Yes, he's likely to have a better career than Daunte...but still. One really good statistical season does not make on an elite QB.dude, its about time to give it a rest and accept reality. bens rookie season was his breakout season. people have been waiting and expecting him to "come back down to earth" after his 1st, 2nd, and 4th season in the league.

the only thing that can bring him down to earth is a near death motorcylce crash, an emergency surgery later in the summer, and a concussion.

keep holding your breath and save the rest of us grounded in reality the trouble.

fansince'76
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Not trying to make it like it's a Ben bashing session. Mostly I'm making a point on the choice of wording. Undisputed is a very strong word. I've seen Ben make far too many plays for my comfort level as a Browns fan.

It's all good - even Peter King had Ben ranked 17th in the league as far as QBs go in preseason last year.

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 10:31 PM
dude, its about time to give it a rest and accept reality. bens rookie season was his breakout season. people have been waiting and expecting him to "come back down to earth" after his 1st, 2nd, and 4th season in the league.

the only thing that can bring him down to earth is a near death motorcylce crash, an emergency surgery later in the summer, and a concussion.

keep holding your breath and save the rest of us grounded in reality the trouble.

He's a very good QB. I don't know why you make it sound like that's a bad thing. However, his 1st and 2nd season were more as "game manager" (18 TDs) than they were as playmaker (32 TDs last season.)

He's had 1 injury season that I'm willing to throw out of the picture. Looking at those statistics, he's a very effective and efficient QB. Last season, other than the sacks and fumbles, he was nearly MVP caliber.

So I have 2 seasons with less than 20 TDs, one injury riddled season with less than 20 TDs, and last year. Historically, what am I supposed to think? Don't be a total Ben Homer here. Think about it in regards to other QBs in the league that have done similar things.

fansince'76
08-05-2008, 10:46 PM
Don't be a total Ben Homer here. Think about it in regards to other QBs in the league that have done similar things.

Like go 13-0 as a rookie? Don't think there's a precedence for that. And before you say that was all running game and defense while he was along for the ride, it was essentially the same team that Maddox guided to a 6-10 record the year before.

xfl2001fan
08-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Like go 13-0 as a rookie? Don't think there's a precedence for that. And before you say that was all running game and defense while he was along for the ride, it was essentially the same team that Maddox guided to a 6-10 record the year before.

Judging by his QB rating, it was more than just a running game and great defense. However, teams were certainly more concerned with the running game that year than they were with a rookie QB. He did a great job that season, but he didn't exactly "light up" teams. As stated earlier, as a fan of football, I want to see one more season of more than 20 passing TDs before I annoint him as a "great/elite" QB. As with 2 years ago, I can accept throwing out injury riddled seasons as an aberration. I've got 3 seasons so far that tell me he is an extremely effective/efficient QB. I have only 1 season that tells me he's a playmaker.

missedgehead
08-05-2008, 11:01 PM
I love Ben just as much as any Steeler fan, but he has to repeat or do better than last year to rise to the level of "elite." He , IMO, is on the cusp like the article implies, but if that O line does NOT protect him or he gets too many injuries, that can cut his progress and he won't be.

tony hipchest
08-05-2008, 11:48 PM
He's a very good QB. I don't know why you make it sound like that's a bad thing. However, his 1st and 2nd season were more as "game manager" (18 TDs) than they were as playmaker (32 TDs last season.)

He's had 1 injury season that I'm willing to throw out of the picture. Looking at those statistics, he's a very effective and efficient QB. Last season, other than the sacks and fumbles, he was nearly MVP caliber.

So I have 2 seasons with less than 20 TDs, one injury riddled season with less than 20 TDs, and last year. Historically, what am I supposed to think? Don't be a total Ben Homer here. Think about it in regards to other QBs in the league that have done similar things.the problem is you're looking at the final statlines and not watching the actual games. do you know how many times ben has put up 9/11, 170 yds, 2td's type of stats and put the game out of reach by halftime?

are you not aware of bill cowhers record with a 10+ point lead and his tendency to shut the passing game down and jam the ball down the opponents throat with said lead in the 2nd half?

if cowher coached the patriots last year, brady woulda had no more than 40 td's, their running game woulda looked a hell of alot better AND they woulda won the superbowl.

getting your facts offa statlines and outta fantasy football magazines may help you make a few bucks on the side but it wont make your points any more correct.

paw-n-maul-u
08-05-2008, 11:57 PM
man, reading the browns fan responses gets me so pissed. Listen homie, ben has had arguably the best first 4 seasons ever by a QB, less marino (except marino never won a SB).

You cannot sit here on this board and bullshit/beat-around-the-bush like ben isnt the tits and ass. he's got it all. Last season proved it, and they way they talk about him in OTA's and minicamp, how good he is doing .... it gives me chills

ON THE OTHER HAND. I've been snooping the browns message board and one of the top headlines was "anderson lost in scrimmage" ... thank you very much. The last time ben was lost, jesus, he MIGHT have been lost his first ever hour as a steeler in the training facility or some bull ...

and even THEN, he did a dip move, spun around the corner, avoided the showers, head faked the trainers room, shook off a nagging towel boy, and threw a TD into his locker. (like he knew where it was the whole time.)

Ben roethlisberger = chuck norris.

if Ben cried, his tear drops would cure cancer. SIKE. .... yeah right, ben doesn't cry ...

B. Roth is at his best when the odds are against him. hatahs gone hate. please, hate on brother, hate on. But I don't wanna see your face on this board when Big Ben smacks you are your dirty underwear brown stains silly.

tony hipchest
08-06-2008, 12:25 AM
ben is having a great camp this season. by all accounts he has been spectacular and almost as perfect as one can expect.

for what its worth, ben was having the same sort of mini-camp, coming off a sb winning season, in his 3rd year, until an extreme lack of judgment (ie accident) derailed it all, and lost him the confidence of his coaches, which in turn lost the confidence of his teammates which in turn pissed the season down the drain.

ben screwed up with just 1 critical mistake in that month of june.

accepted.

rbryan
08-06-2008, 01:20 AM
Does this mean its OK for me to think the Steelers won't suck???? Thanks for stopping by, I was really worried. I feel a whole lot better now.

Yeah BB is da shite , knew that the first minute I laid eyes on on him, theres a reason he's the highest paid Steeler since the beginning of time. Take this to da bank ..... Steelers rock the pattie cakes and the fjags on the road......win the divison......AGAIN.........

Mark it down.

Galax Steeler
08-06-2008, 04:27 AM
I think ben is a top 3 quarterback in the league already and woodley will bring more to the table this year.

Steel Pit
08-06-2008, 05:36 AM
Judging by his QB rating, it was more than just a running game and great defense. However, teams were certainly more concerned with the running game that year than they were with a rookie QB. He did a great job that season, but he didn't exactly "light up" teams. As stated earlier, as a fan of football, I want to see one more season of more than 20 passing TDs before I annoint him as a "great/elite" QB. As with 2 years ago, I can accept throwing out injury riddled seasons as an aberration. I've got 3 seasons so far that tell me he is an extremely effective/efficient QB. I have only 1 season that tells me he's a playmaker.


How often do you actually watch Steelers games, maybe 3 or 4 times a year? Twice versus the Browns and MAYBE a couple of other games prior to mid-season in hopes that the Steelers will lose and allow your Browns to inch within a game or two of our division lead?

As Tony has already mentioned, Bill Cowher's team NEVER lit anyone up with their passing game. Run, run, pass, that was Cowher's philosophy. However, Cowher's offensive philosophy can be used to strengthen the position of those who believe that Roethlisberger is one of the top 3 or 4 QB's in league for the following reason:

During Cowher's tenure, opposing teams almost always knew when the Steelers were going to pass the football based simply on down and yards needed. Roethlisberger's few attempts at passing the ball were almost always against nickel and dime packages. Steelers fans who actually WATCHED those games, have seen Roethlisberger wiggle out of what appeared to be certain sacks, all the while keeping his composure, and deliver strikes downfield. Steelers fans KNOW that Roethlisberger is more than merely a game manager or efficient QB. Roethlisberger is quite simply a PLAYMAKER! When it comes to passing under duress, NO ONE does it better than Roethlisberger.

Check Roethlisberger's stats against some of the All-time great QB's, Marino, Elway, Montana, etc., at this same point in their careers. Roethlisberger is right there with the best of them when comparing the numbers that count, 3rd down completion rate, 3rd down yardage per attempt, QB rating on 3rd downs, statistical categories that indicate that a QB gets it done when it has to be done. I'm not talking about silly fantasy football numbers which are predominantly accounted for by play-action passes to cowardice WR's who merely streak down the sideline, or Chicken $hit no huddle run offenses, I'm talking about inside slant routes to TOUGH WR's against nickel and dime packages. All of these categories indicate that Roethlisberger is every bit as effective as the all-time greats.

You may not believe that he has passed for an abundant amount of yardage but believe me, look it up if you must, he's not out the frame. Now he' s certainly no Marino in relation to passing yards, and I Thank God that he's not, but he's in the group photo with the other greats at the same tenure in their careers.

xfl2001fan
08-06-2008, 07:34 AM
Is Terrel Davis going to ever be considered one of the greatest HBs of all time? No, despite a few years of greatness, it needs to happen over the long haul.

I am well aware of what Ben does. Last season, he threw a TD every 12.65 passes. That's somewhat close to Tom Brady's best season (last year) of 11.56, but still a bit behind Peytons (2004) of 10.14. I'm guessing his career average of TD per 17 pass attemtps is going to be top all-time for a QBs first 4 years of starting.

I know what he's accomplished to this point. But, if he sticks with his career average and throws the ball 400 times, he'll get around 23 TDs. At 500 attempts, he's getting 29 TDs. Those are really good numbers, but that's hard to do. Before I label him great, I want to see him do this for a few seasons. I was skeptical of Peyton for years. I'm still skeptical of Brady. It's not because I'm a Browns fan, but because I want to see longevity before I begun dubbing greatness.

As for some of the other comments, I detest fantasy football. I semi-attempted to try a season out, but realize that some of the fans of fantasy football don't care about the game of football itself. They don't care about wins and losses, just how many points they earn off of whatever team they've thrown together this season can get them. The "fans" are as big a group of fairweather fans as exists. They only like guys like Peyton, LT, T. Gonzalez etc...because they produce on the fantasy field. Not because of what they actually bring to the table on the football field. They would take Carson Palmer and his 8-8 seasons.

What last season proved to me is that he can be "Feature QB" in a primarily passing offense for one season. New coaching staff, new coaching philosophies, new everything.

I want to see him be the "feature QB" on a primary passing team for a few more seasons before I can dub him great.

Carson Palmer is a feature QB on a primary passing game. He's had one winning season and a lot of statistics that haven't done him much good. He's a good QB, but in order to be great, he needs to produce a few more wins. He's a damn near a shoe-in for the FFHoF, but that is irrelevant to me. If Ben can continue to be his cool and efficient self while still throwing for 400+ times a game (and still winning games) then (as a fan of football) will be more than happy to acceed to the fact that he's the tits and ass

I'll leave TC and preseason talk out of it, because most coaches talk up their QBs (outside of Baltimore) during this time frame.

I didn't realize by my asking for a guy to choose his words a little more carefully that I'd get this kind of response. Yup, even on a Steelers site. It's been about a dozen posts or so since someone decided to read far more into my posts than what was actually intended.

DACEB
08-06-2008, 08:15 AM
I didn't realize by my asking for a guy to choose his words a little more carefully that I'd get this kind of response. Yup, even on a Steelers site. It's been about a dozen posts or so since someone decided to read far more into my posts than what was actually intended.

Were you ever a Pats fan, because your shtick sounds familiar. NM

Why don't you just admit, you want Ben. You probably can't get over the fact that your team missed out on the hometown boy.

All kidding aside, Ben does what he does, MAKE PLAYS! We here on this board know he's not (Brady or Manning) perfect, but we'll take him as is. :)

lilyoder6
08-06-2008, 09:20 AM
well over the past couple of yrs the off has been opening up and has turn the run pass ratio more to a 50-50 right now... i mean we have 4 weps at wr depending on sweed being as good as we think and 2 te's and possibly 3 rb's who can catch out of the backfiled.. i don't think that ur gonna be able to keep ben or even the off maybe content w/ running all the time w/ these weps.. so he'll throw more and more by the yrs

missedgehead
08-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Is Terrel Davis going to ever be considered one of the greatest HBs of all time? No, despite a few years of greatness, it needs to happen over the long haul.

I am well aware of what Ben does. Last season, he threw a TD every 12.65 passes. That's somewhat close to Tom Brady's best season (last year) of 11.56, but still a bit behind Peytons (2004) of 10.14. I'm guessing his career average of TD per 17 pass attemtps is going to be top all-time for a QBs first 4 years of starting.

I know what he's accomplished to this point. But, if he sticks with his career average and throws the ball 400 times, he'll get around 23 TDs. At 500 attempts, he's getting 29 TDs. Those are really good numbers, but that's hard to do. Before I label him great, I want to see him do this for a few seasons. I was skeptical of Peyton for years. I'm still skeptical of Brady. It's not because I'm a Browns fan, but because I want to see longevity before I begun dubbing greatness.

As for some of the other comments, I detest fantasy football. I semi-attempted to try a season out, but realize that some of the fans of fantasy football don't care about the game of football itself. They don't care about wins and losses, just how many points they earn off of whatever team they've thrown together this season can get them. The "fans" are as big a group of fairweather fans as exists. They only like guys like Peyton, LT, T. Gonzalez etc...because they produce on the fantasy field. Not because of what they actually bring to the table on the football field. They would take Carson Palmer and his 8-8 seasons.

What last season proved to me is that he can be "Feature QB" in a primarily passing offense for one season. New coaching staff, new coaching philosophies, new everything.

I want to see him be the "feature QB" on a primary passing team for a few more seasons before I can dub him great.

Carson Palmer is a feature QB on a primary passing game. He's had one winning season and a lot of statistics that haven't done him much good. He's a good QB, but in order to be great, he needs to produce a few more wins. He's a damn near a shoe-in for the FFHoF, but that is irrelevant to me. If Ben can continue to be his cool and efficient self while still throwing for 400+ times a game (and still winning games) then (as a fan of football) will be more than happy to acceed to the fact that he's

I'll leave TC and preseason talk out of it, because most coaches talk up their QBs (outside of Baltimore) during this time frame.

I didn't realize by my asking for a guy to choose his words a little more carefully that I'd get this kind of response. Yup, even on a Steelers site. It's been about a dozen posts or so since someone decided to read far more into my posts than what was actually intended.


Agreed. The only thing I take exception to is Brady. Brady is great. Period. 3 rings. Tom has been the starter since 2001. Just about 6 or 7 years. That is long enough for me. I do take exception to fans and the mediots , especially ESPN, or as I call them BSPN..labeling someone great after a few good years.

tony hipchest
08-06-2008, 10:10 AM
I do take exception to fans and the mediots , especially ESPN, or as I call them BSPN..labeling someone great after a few good years.i take exception to fans not recognizing obvious greatness. i remember watching barry sanders in his rookie year for the first time and knew i was witnessing greatness. i saw something, i had never seen before.

espn highlights aside, did you watch adrian peterson play in any games last year? dude lit the league on fire.

people like to refer to and quote bill parcells alot cause hes sorta like a dean of football, very experienced and seasoned, and he knows quite a bit. he recognized ben's talent right away.

fansince'76
08-06-2008, 10:52 AM
i take exception to fans not recognizing obvious greatness. i remember watching barry sanders in his rookie year for the first time and knew i was witnessing greatness. i saw something, i had never seen before.

espn highlights aside, did you watch adrian peterson play in any games last year? dude lit the league on fire.

people like to refer to and quote bill parcells alot cause hes sorta like a dean of football, very experienced and seasoned, and he knows quite a bit. he recognized ben's talent right away.

What are ya gonna do, Tony? Ben simply isn't one of the media's "fair-haired boys" (see Manning and Brady, and to a lesser extent Romo). I guess we'll know he's finally "made it" as a "great QB" when he goes out and has a 6-interception performance and the media refers to the effort as "heroic." :rolleyes: As Steelers fans we know Ben is special and that is really all that matters. The Rooneys in their infinite wisdom recognize it as well and paid him accordingly.

SteelMember
08-06-2008, 11:31 AM
The Rooneys in their infinite wisdom recognize it as well and paid him accordingly.

They may seem "frugal", but they always seem to make solid business decisions that turn out pretty well.

Ben is a great talent. I think we all know that given what we've had to witness in the past. Having to rationalize this, especially to a :poop:'s fan, dosen't seem necessary. Also, the "game manager" tag. What a load. His talent is there. Some are just reluctant to admit it.

He is a leader, a motivator and a winner! :tt03:

Dino 6 Rings
08-06-2008, 12:36 PM
Grim fact No.1: Ben Roethlisberger has taken 93 sacks the past two seasons, second only to Jon Kitna.
Grim fact No. 2: The Steelers O-line lost LG Alan Faneca to the Jets in the off-season. No wonder O-coordinator Bruce Arians is harping on his QB to make quick decisions and to audible out of bad situations more this season...

Sounds like your O-coordinator is agreeing that he needs to make his reads quicker. Unless you think he's a Browns troll too...

I agree he's a good QB, but if the O-line doesn't shape up soon, he'll be facing the injury bug that could destroy a potentially great QB.

Listen up Hater. I'll take a sack on a play anytime over an INT. You go ahead and be happy with your 19 ints last season by Anderson vs Ben's 11 and your 82.5 rating vs Bens 104 Rating. Enjoy those numbers all year long again.

Sure, we have questions, and when we play the Houston Texans week 1, we'll see if we have addressed the O-line issue, but remember you have a very unproven 1 year wonder QB leading your team with the fans ready to start the Brady Q chant at the first sign of struggles by Mr Anderson. We don't have a QB controversy in our future, how about the Browns?

xfl2001fan
08-06-2008, 01:49 PM
Listen up Hater. I'll take a sack on a play anytime over an INT. You go ahead and be happy with your 19 ints last season by Anderson vs Ben's 11 and your 82.5 rating vs Bens 104 Rating. Enjoy those numbers all year long again.

Sure, we have questions, and when we play the Houston Texans week 1, we'll see if we have addressed the O-line issue, but remember you have a very unproven 1 year wonder QB leading your team with the fans ready to start the Brady Q chant at the first sign of struggles by Mr Anderson. We don't have a QB controversy in our future, how about the Browns?


No, you listen. My name isn't Hater. It's never been anything remotely close to it. I'd appreciate it if you didn't call me names outside of the Blast Furnace. You can say what you want inside of the Blast Furnace, but out here, it's really immature and uncalled for. I did nothing to attack you personally in anyway, inside or outside of the Blast Furnace. All I ask is the same respect be shown in return.

Back on topic, that sure was nice of you to only quote a portion of what I typed up to make your attack, but ignoring everything else. (Preacher, where's that sarcasm smiley at? I seriousy agree with you in that we need one here)

Those "Grim Facts" came out of ESPN the Magazine. Yup, I just re-typed (word for word) what somebody else said. My statements followed those "grim facts." Your O-coordinator has the same opinion that I do. Ben needs to get rid of the ball quicker.

As good as Ben is, he's taken far too many hits. Your team would be playing Russian Roulette with Ben's career (and your teams long term future) if they didn't do something to change. Hence the shorter passing game (reminiscent of the West Coast offense) that is talked about during TC. I pointed out (several times) in this very thread that he is an effective and efficient QB, but (until last season) wasn't a game breaker. I want to see a few more years of "game breaker" before I dub him as great.

Averaging less than 18 TDs a season for his first three years is hardly great. Last year was a big year for him. The football fan in me wants to see more like that than the other three before I dub him as being great/elite.

I am nowhere near ready to dub any current Browns QB as great/elite or even really really good. I want to see if Derek is going to be more like the guy from the first half of the season, or the last half. Obviously, I am going to differ from the majority of this site as to which path I prefer he go down. I have never had faith in Brady Quinn, so I do not looking forward to him starting and hope he always rides the pine (unless I'm wrong about him). I'm pretty sure I've never said anyting remotely like "my QB is better than yours." Why are you so intent on bring up the Browns in a Steelers thread? Save that for the NFL threads please. Or for the Blast Furnace. I'd hate to get accused (wrongfully) of being responsible for this thread being hijacked into a Browns thread.

As to the guy who talks about Tom Brady being great. I want to see him do more when he doesn't have the advantage of knowing the other teams signals. He (like Barry Bonds) needs to have a * next to every stat he puts up and any record he holds.

xfl2001fan
08-06-2008, 01:56 PM
Were you ever a Pats fan, because your shtick sounds familiar. NM

Why don't you just admit, you want Ben. You probably can't get over the fact that your team missed out on the hometown boy.

All kidding aside, Ben does what he does, MAKE PLAYS! We here on this board know he's not (Brady or Manning) perfect, but we'll take him as is. :)

H8 the Pats, H8 Belicheat and H8 Moss. Nope, nothing even close.

Would I like to have Ben on my team? Certainly. Him and Hines Ward would make a spectacular edition to the Browns. I'm not a big fan of FWP as I'd prefer a bruiser at HB than a scatback. Being an OSU fan, I'd like to have Santo Holmes as well. I can easily admit that your team has good players. I have no problem with saying that. Every team misses on players every year. Some teams do a great job of landing players. It's a part of the game. I like the progress my team has made under Phil Savage.

I've seen Ben make plays...but, in his first three years, he didn't exactly light up every team. He averaged just over 1TD per game. Were they opportune? You guys can certainly answer that easier than I can. Some were most definitely opportune. Last year, he averaged over 2 TDs per game (as he only started 15 games). That's a significant improvement, but it's only one year. Is he capable? Yup. But so are a lot of other players in the league.

revefsreleets
08-06-2008, 07:42 PM
The beauty of the upcoming season? All will be determined on the field. I stand by my predictions: Ben continues his meteoric rise, and Derek Anderson becomes a trivia question that only Browns fans will remember the answer to a few years from now.

The bitterness creeps in through every crack with these guys...Being a Browns fan requires that you spend your life clinging to hope and quoting every source that you can find that bashes the Steelers. They can't win on the field, so what else is there?

GBMelBlount
08-06-2008, 08:19 PM
If line gels & injury Gods smile. 10 wins.

HometownGal
08-06-2008, 08:52 PM
Hyuk, hyuk, hyuk.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/03/i/04/27/6c/4f_2.JPG

Stlrs4Life
08-06-2008, 10:05 PM
Why are you guys beating up on xfl2001? He didn't once say Ben sucks. And why would you expect him to like Ben anyways? He talks more sense than any of the Browns fans that I have to deal with at work.

9-5
08-07-2008, 12:46 AM
Why are you guys beating up on xfl2001? He didn't once say Ben sucks. And why would you expect him to like Ben anyways? He talks more sense than any of the Browns fans that I have to deal with at work.
Because he is a Browns fan, and therefore, deserves no respect from other, Steeler loving members. Or, at least, that's some people think.

Back on topic

Big Ben is not a elite QB until he can prove he can put up the same kind of numbers that he did last year. You can talk all about his record as a rookie and his Super Bowl ring until you are blue in the face, but lets look at the stats:

In 2004, his rookie season, Ben averaged 187.21 yards a game and 1.21 TD's a game

In 2005, Ben averaged 198.75 yards a game and 1.41 TD's a game

In 2006, Ben averaged 234.2 yards a game and 1.2 TD's a game

Last year, Ben averaged 210.26 yards a game and 2.13 TD's a game

He had better stats then most rookie QB's, but they were nothing to be in awe over. In his sophomore season, he improved, but still, nothing spectacular. 2006 is his best season in terms of yards per game, but he threw less TD's per game then he did as a rookie. Granted, he was nowhere near 100%, so I will be willing to say that was a fluke. In 2007, his TD's per game were far and away the best, with only a small decrease in yards per game. Not to mention having the 2nd best QB rating behind Tom Brady.

IMO, Ben isn't a elite QB.....yet. He puts up numbers like last year, I probably would consider him a elite QB.

I just hope he doesn't do it against my Browns! :thumbsup:

tony hipchest
08-07-2008, 12:51 AM
Because he is a Browns fan, and therefore, deserves no respect from other, Steeler loving members. Or, at least, that's some people think.

Back on topic

Big Ben is not a elite QB until he can prove he can put up the same kind of numbers that he did last year. You can talk all about his record as a rookie and his Super Bowl ring until you are blue in the face, but lets look at the stats:

In 2004, his rookie season, Ben averaged 187.21 yards a game and 1.21 TD's a game

In 2005, Ben averaged 198.75 yards a game and 1.41 TD's a game

In 2006, Ben averaged 234.2 yards a game and 1.2 TD's a game

Last year, Ben averaged 210.26 yards a game and 2.13 TD's a game

He had better stats then most rookie QB's, but they were nothing to be in awe over. In his sophomore season, he improved, but still, nothing spectacular. 2006 is his best season in terms of yards per game, but he threw less TD's per game then he did as a rookie. Granted, he was nowhere near 100%, so I will be willing to say that was a fluke. In 2007, his TD's per game were far and away the best, with only a small decrease in yards per game. Not to mention having the 2nd best QB rating behind Tom Brady.

IMO, Ben isn't a elite QB.....yet. He puts up numbers like last year, I probably would consider him a elite QB.

I just hope he doesn't do it against my Browns! :thumbsup:

wins > "numbers"

playoff wins (5) > "numbers"

rings > "numbers"




chew on that bone.

9-5
08-07-2008, 01:22 AM
playoff wins (5) > "numbers"

rings > "numbers"
So, by your logic, Trent Dilfer is a elite QB because he has playoff wins and a Super Bowl ring. :chuckle:
And besides, Ben's QB rating in the Super Bowl was 22.6. Not exactly a elite performance.

tony hipchest
08-07-2008, 01:31 AM
So, by your logic, Trent Dilfer is a elite QB because he has playoff wins and a Super Bowl ring. :chuckle:
And besides, Ben's QB rating in the Super Bowl was 22.6. Not exactly a elite performance.whatever you say "numbers guy".

you just compared ben to dilfer. your credibility is shot.

ben is one of 3 to have triple digit passer rating last year (ben was 2nd).

ben is 1 of 3 to have 32 or more passing td's last year.

bens TD to PA was right there with brady (tops in the league) and manning.

bens career YPA ( do you know what that is?) is amongst the all time best.

chew on those "numbers".

:coffee: next

9-5
08-07-2008, 01:50 AM
whatever you say "numbers guy".

you just compared ben to dilfer. your credibility is shot.

ben is one of 3 to have triple digit passer rating last year (ben was 2nd).

ben is 1 of 3 to have 32 or more passing td's last year.

bens TD to PA was right there with brady (tops in the league) and manning.

bens career YPA ( do you know what that is?) is amongst the all time best.

chew on those "numbers".

:coffee: next
How is my credibility shot? You said that playoff wins and Super Bowl rings were greater then numbers. By bringing up Trent Dilfer, I was trying (futilely, as it appears) to show that you don't have to be a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.

And all those number's, save the last, were from last season. Which has been his only good numbers years so far.

Yards per Attempt, by the way. And that number is a little deceiving, because he has never finished higher then 8th in passing yards. He did that in 2006, and last year he finished 14th. Derek Anderson finished 9th. And Derek is a long way from being an elite QB.

fansince'76
08-07-2008, 01:54 AM
How is my credibility shot? You said that playoff wins and Super Bowl rings were greater then numbers. By bringing up Trent Dilfer, I was trying (futilely, as it appears) to show that you don't have to be a elite QB to win a Super Bowl.

And all those number's, save the last, were from last season. Which has been his only good numbers years so far.

Yards per Attempt, by the way. And that number is a little deceiving, because he has never finished higher then 8th in passing yards. He did that in 2006, and last year he finished 14th. Derek Anderson finished 9th. And Derek is a long way from being an elite QB.

Revs was right - seething with bitterness. He owns your team, and has since he's been in the league, so you gotta downplay everything he's done. Anything to ease the pain, huh? :coffee:

Steel Pit
08-07-2008, 02:37 AM
Because he is a Browns fan, and therefore, deserves no respect from other, Steeler loving members. Or, at least, that's some people think.

Back on topic

Big Ben is not a elite QB until he can prove he can put up the same kind of numbers that he did last year. You can talk all about his record as a rookie and his Super Bowl ring until you are blue in the face, but lets look at the stats:

In 2004, his rookie season, Ben averaged 187.21 yards a game and 1.21 TD's a game

In 2005, Ben averaged 198.75 yards a game and 1.41 TD's a game

In 2006, Ben averaged 234.2 yards a game and 1.2 TD's a game

Last year, Ben averaged 210.26 yards a game and 2.13 TD's a game

He had better stats then most rookie QB's, but they were nothing to be in awe over. In his sophomore season, he improved, but still, nothing spectacular. 2006 is his best season in terms of yards per game, but he threw less TD's per game then he did as a rookie. Granted, he was nowhere near 100%, so I will be willing to say that was a fluke. In 2007, his TD's per game were far and away the best, with only a small decrease in yards per game. Not to mention having the 2nd best QB rating behind Tom Brady.

IMO, Ben isn't a elite QB.....yet. He puts up numbers like last year, I probably would consider him a elite QB.

I just hope he doesn't do it against my Browns! :thumbsup:

Let's get one thing straight as you attempt to downgrade the career of Ben Roethlisberger. First of all, let's not act as if Roethlisberger has ANYWHERE NEAR the number of pass attempts in a given season that Brady, Palmer, or Manning have. Ben throws the ball when the offensive coordinator sends in a play that calls for him to throw the ball.

Anyone who knows squat about the NFL, is well aware of the fact that Roethlisberger's former head coach, you may have heard of him, his name is Bill Cowher, was not not a huge fan of the passing game and he failed to utilize it as often as he should have.

Just keep that in mind when you want to talk numbers. Don't even attempt to prove a bogus point by pitting Roethlisberger against QB's who consistently have twice as many pass attempts per season when opposed to Roethlisberger. I'll tell you what dude, they had better pass for more yards in a season than Roethlisberger when they have twice as many attempts. If not, then something is definitely wrong with your list of "elite QB's".

Once again man, look at the numbers that count. Compare Roethlisberger to your list of elites in categories such as yards per pass attempt, 3rd down success rate, 3rd down QB rating, 3rd down yards per pass attempt. Those are all numbers that are accumulated in CRUNCH TIME! Crunch time baby, when a QB MUST perform, when a defense KNOWS that the QB is going to pass the damn ball. These are MAN stats baby. Compare Roethlisberger in those categories and you'll come to realize that he's simply a PLAYMAKER! He's a man playing with boys in the CRUNCH!

revefsreleets
08-07-2008, 09:48 AM
This is easy. Put Ben behind that Oline in Cleveland last year, in that pass-happy offense, and he puts up Manning/Brady-like numbers. The Steelers are a run-first team, and always have been.

These arguments coming in from Cleveland are retarded, RETARDED! Ben's best years are still in front of him, and he's probably just going to continue to get better for the next 3-5 years before he peaks. That's right, Ben has not even come close to peaking.

Some numbers? Browns threw the ball 545 times compared to the Steelers 442. Add 20% more attempts, and 20% more completions (although that too would be higher given that Ben is more accurate than Anderson, not to mention that behind better protection he'd probably be more like completing 70% of his passes), and Ben's numbers jump up to close to 4,000 yards passing and 40 TD's.

That ain't elite?

Or do you think Ben is a one year wonder?

I'm breathless with anticipation for the pending retorts from the Browns braintrust...

xfl2001fan
08-07-2008, 10:32 AM
I don't believe he's a one-year wonder, but I also don't know how he'll hold up in a more wide open system with an O-line that has had problems protecting him in the past. When teams know you're going to pass more often, they adjust how they prepare for you and attack that offense differently.

I have no problem admitting he's proven to be a better QB than Anderson at this point, but at the sime time, I've only seen one year where he produced big time numbers. That was last year.

His first three years, he had a very very respectable TD per Attempt ratio. I don't need for him to produce the same TD/Attempt ratio he had last year (going forward), but we have a much smaller sample size his first two years, so it's hard to tell whether he could maintain that over the course of another 200 attempts. When teams expect you to run, it sometimes makes it easier to throw.

Is last year really a tiding of things to come (as most Steelers fans speculate) or is it more like a "career year" that he won't be able to quite live up to going forward? Brady and Manning both had only one year that approached that TD/attempt ratio, and the rest were considerably worse...but still very respectable. It's not a knock to say he had a career year least year and may not see it again.

The Steelers stopped being a run-first team two years ago when Ben started dropping back to pass 450+ times a year. As stated earlier, we'll throw out his third season particularly because of the injuries.

My arguments have not been "retarded, RETARDED!" There is no need to get angry. Nowhere in this thread have I said that Ben is a bad QB (or even alluded to it.)

I am simply holding out further judgement to see if he's going to continue to put up large numbers in a more "pass happy system", or if he's going to revert back to what he's done the three years prior. There's nothing retarded about that. It's stepping back and observing things without emotion.

I know what Browns passing numbers look like. I've made my statement regarding our QBs. As stated earlier, this isn't about the Browns, so don't bring them up in this thread. I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread for turning it into a Browns thread. This isan't about how your team compares to mine. Save that for the NFL thread or the Blast Furnace.

If you want "retarded, RETARDED!" then continue to make assumptions about what Ben might be able to do behind a different O-line and continue making assumptions as to how he would perform. It is entirely impossible to truly predict what his numbers would be like. What you are doing is speculating, which has no factual basis in this argument.

Because I don't know (and will never know) what Ben would do behind our Line, I can honestly answer your question wtih saying that it "ain't elite." You gave me no real answer/numbers that would help determine it. You, instead, took a very angry approach and then made up a bunch of statistics while attacking a me for taking a reasonable approach to holding off on my opinion.

Please save your anger and "retarded" comments for the Blast Furnace.

Sincerely,

Browns braintrust...

tony hipchest
08-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Some numbers? Browns threw the ball 545 times compared to the Steelers 442. Add 20% more attempts, and 20% more completions (although that too would be higher given that Ben is more accurate than Anderson, not to mention that behind better protection he'd probably be more like completing 70% of his passes), and Ben's numbers jump up to close to 4,000 yards passing and 40 TD's.

this is fun. i love this one-

tom brady led the league with 1 td for every 11.56 passing attempt.
ben is 12.62 td/att. for comparisson-

manning 16.61
palmer 22.11 *snicker*
favre 19.10
romo 14.44
d. anderson 18.17

tom = 578 attempts
ben = 404 attempts (578-404= 174 more attempts)

so if ben had 174 more attempts at the rate of 12.62 attempt/td (174/12.62 = 13.78 rounded up to 14)

32 +14 = 46 (which would be 2nd in the league plus he had 3 rushing td's too)

174 X 7.8 yds per attempt and ben has 1357 extra yards. add that to his actual total (3154) and he has 4511 (which woulda been 2nd in the league behind brady and ahead of brees who had 36 more completions than ben had attempts :jawdrop: )

lets extrapolate bens "numbers" if he played for o-coord turned head coach, sean payton-
brees- 652 attempts - 404 = 248/12.62 = 19.65 more td's = 52 total td's
248 attempts X 7.8 ypa = 1934 + 3154 = 5088

so basically those are dan marino type record breaking numbers ben is capable of putting up.

more importantly HE WINS. this is seen in his final year in college and 1st year in pro ball where he went undefeated both years untill reaching the championship game.

lets not forget brees and brady got many more years of experience than ben (who is still just a big kid) especially when you go back to high school. ben is behind the curve and still hasnt peaked.

give him a line that only gives up 16 sacks (saints) or 21 (patriots) and a few more years in a system that was new last year, the possibilities are endless.

ben = "elite" :wave:

xfl2001fan
08-07-2008, 11:16 AM
Making assumptions that he would maintain that pace with an additional 174 pass attemtps is ludicrous. That's 174 less run plays, which means defenses are going to play you differently.

Drew Brees is going to wear his arm out if he has another year like he did last year. His numbers come down this season (efficiency) because of last season. Similiar to a back who rushes the ball more than 350 times in a season.

The TEAM wins. It takes the entire team, not just one QB, no matter how good he is. HE doesn't catch TD passes and he doesn't block for the HB. HE doesn't deflect passes, or interecept them. HE doesn't sack the opposing QB and HE will never lead his team in tackles. HE doesn't WIN. He helps.

lilyoder6
08-07-2008, 11:31 AM
who touches the ball evry time on off? the qb so he runs the off and they only do as good as he does. they go off of him and etc...

revefsreleets
08-07-2008, 11:52 AM
The Steelers are still a run first team. (Sigh)If you don't know, why do you continue to act like you do? In 2007 the Steelers threw 442 passes versus 511 rushes. How's that pass first? Ben set passing records in a season where the Steelers ran the ball 15% more than they threw it.

And your speculation that Ben would be less effective throwing more is just as ridiculous as the speculation that he'd be more effective, since both are just speculation. But it certainly stands to reason that Ben will continue to improve based on the fact that, excepting the year of the bike crash, he's shown steady improvement in every facet of his game.

But I love your spunk and your optimism and the fight in you. I expect you need a lot of all to roll that rock up the hill every year...

9-5
08-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Revs was right - seething with bitterness. He owns your team, and has since he's been in the league, so you gotta downplay everything he's done. Anything to ease the pain, huh? :coffee:
Wait a minute. Ralph Learner sold the Browns to Ben?! When did this happen?


I'm not downplaying anything. All I am trying to say is the Ben is not a elite QB. How many times do I have to say it before it sinks in?

fansince'76
08-07-2008, 12:32 PM
Wait a minute. Ralph Learner sold the Browns to Ben?! When did this happen?


I'm not downplaying anything. All I am trying to say is the Ben is not a elite QB. How many times do I have to say it before it sinks in?

All I'm getting from you is the bitterness of someone who follows a team who has never managed to beat Ben in his career yet, not even during his down, injury-riddled year of '06. It's cool, I understand it completely. Keep saying he's "not elite" if it makes you feel better.

SteelMember
08-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Wait a minute. Ralph Learner sold the Browns to Ben?! When did this happen?


I'm not downplaying anything. All I am trying to say is the Ben is not a elite QB. How many times do I have to say it before it sinks in?

It wont.
If we believed all your "opinions", we'd be turd fans. :flap:

tony hipchest
08-07-2008, 01:03 PM
Making assumptions that he would maintain that pace with an additional 174 pass attemtps is ludicrous. That's 174 less run plays, which means defenses are going to play you differently.

.theres a slight difference between making assumptions and extrapolation. but youre right. our offense will dictate that teams have to play us differently. that just means a player like willie parker gets an extra 50-75 receptions and put up total yard numbers like marshall faulk, ladainian tomlinson or brian westbrook. with the addition of mendenhall and moore do you SEE where this offense is heading?

i cant wait to see 8 men in the box all the time. then again, i cant wait to see 5 men dropped into coverage. then again i cant wait to see teams try to man up on our offense.

check.

Edman
08-07-2008, 01:05 PM
Ben is not an elite QB...

But in Cleveland Derek Anderson is the second coming and the Browns will hammer the Steelers this year with their new fat guys and oft-injured former draft bust of a free agent aquisition in Dante Stallworth.

It'll sink in all right.

Steely McSmash
08-07-2008, 01:29 PM
I am simply holding out further judgement to see if he's going to continue to put up large numbers in a more "pass happy system", or if he's going to revert back to what he's done the three years prior. There's nothing retarded about that. It's stepping back and observing things without emotion.

I guess this is fun for some of you.

You're really spending a lot of time trying to convince a Browns fan that Ben is definitely an elite quarterback. Seeing as this is more or less going to come down to someone's opinion, seems like a waste of time to me. In my opinion he is but I'm not interested in convincing anyone of that. It's so hard to apply stats meaningfully in football because of the variation and complexity of the game.

Originally posting recyled opnions from ESPN doesn't really add much value to the conversation. That "Faneca's gone the sky is falling" story been the "capsule" vue of the team since they lost the playoff game last year. Some writer looks at the team headlines for the offseason transactions and takes wild irresponsible stabs at the future which we'll all forget later and still pay attention to the same writers later on. That's the current low standard for sports journalism though.

xfl2001fan
08-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Ben is not an elite QB...

But in Cleveland Derek Anderson is the second coming and the Browns will hammer the Steelers this year with their new fat guys and oft-injured former draft bust of a free agent aquisition in Dante Stallworth.

It'll sink in all right.

I am sure that this is sarcasm. I don't recall ever saying that Derek Anderson is the "second coming." Why are you bringing up Browns players in a Steelers threads? If the rule applies to me not to do that, it should apply to you. As I've requested two other times (if not more) in this particular thread, could you please keep those comments in the NFL thread (which is about other teams) or the Blast Furnace? I don't want this thread to be hijacked into a Browns thread.

To Tony:

I don't know that FWP would get 50-75 receptions as he's not shown to be as natural a pass catcher out of the backfield as Marshal/Edge/LT and a few other good ones. Could he be of that caliber? Time will tell, but I have more faith in seeing more of Moore and Mendenhall than I do FWP playing that particular role.

The Steelers are still a run first team. (Sigh)If you don't know, why do you continue to act like you do? In 2007 the Steelers threw 442 passes versus 511 rushes. How's that pass first? Ben set passing records in a season where the Steelers ran the ball 15% more than they threw it.

And your speculation that Ben would be less effective throwing more is just as ridiculous as the speculation that he'd be more effective, since both are just speculation. But it certainly stands to reason that Ben will continue to improve based on the fact that, excepting the year of the bike crash, he's shown steady improvement in every facet of his game.

But I love your spunk and your optimism and the fight in you. I expect you need a lot of all to roll that rock up the hill every year...

I'll give you that it wasn't pass first. I do believe that I said "more pass happy" which isn't necessarily the same as pass first. However, I should have chosen my words more carefully.

Your pass totals need to include sacks (Ben's 40+ and if Batch got any as well) and you should also take some of Ben's runs and toss them into pass play category as not all of his rushes were designed runs but pass plays that broke down badly. (This is something your QB is far better at than any other "real" QB in the league.) This will give you a more accurate assessment of the play-call mentaility that your team had last year.

So basically you were a 50/50 offense last year.

I didn't mean for it to sound like he would be less effective. It was meant to be a question of whether or not he could continue being as effective if he is asked to throw more. Unfortuntately, the only season he threw more passes than last year was his injury year, so we can't really say it counts as proof. I can understand why Steelers fans in particular would look at the annual improvement and assume that it will continue, but I saw a "career" year. Maybe not in total attempts, but in regards to effectiveness. It's hard to top that. Peyton is one of the best of the current generation...and he only topped Ben's efficiency performance once in his career.

The season will answer all questions...and bring up more for next year. Same as it does every year.

MilehighSteelerFan
08-07-2008, 01:44 PM
Ben is GOOD but not GREAT! he is in my opinion in the top five in the league,but he has got to make better decsions at crucial moments in the game. In that category he is 50/50. The O line will defintely be HUGE for us if these guys don't step up we are looking at a season of STRESS with the TOUGH Schedule we play Ben cannot get sacked like he did last year!

LVSteelersfan
08-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Ben is GOOD but not GREAT! he is in my opinion in the top five in the league,but he has got to make better decsions at crucial moments in the game. In that category he is 50/50. The O line will defintely be HUGE for us if these guys don't step up we are looking at a season of STRESS with the TOUGH Schedule we play Ben cannot get sacked like he did last year!

I am a Steelers homer from the get go. BUT, I have to agree here. Ben has to get better in the red zone with his decision making before he joins the "elite" status in my opinion. TDs or field goals EVERY TIME instead of those INTS that he is prone to throw early in games. He has to get over that. Once he does that, no team will beat the Steelers because once Ben gets that figured out, there will be no stopping them. I hate Brady with a passion and will never admit he is the best QB in the game. Put some pressure on him and he folds like a cheap card table. Manning is definitely great but he has the same problem. Every QB has their faults, even the so-called elite ones. And Tony Romo is a joke. I heard today someone ask a question if Brett Favre is now the third best QB in the AFC now that he is with the Jets. I almost fell off my chair. Mr. INT man is not even in the top 5 in the AFC, never mind third.

xfl2001fan
08-07-2008, 04:34 PM
I am a Steelers homer from the get go. BUT, I have to agree here. Ben has to get better in the red zone with his decision making before he joins the "elite" status in my opinion. TDs or field goals EVERY TIME instead of those INTS that he is prone to throw early in games. He has to get over that. Once he does that, no team will beat the Steelers because once Ben gets that figured out, there will be no stopping them. I hate Brady with a passion and will never admit he is the best QB in the game. Put some pressure on him and he folds like a cheap card table. Manning is definitely great but he has the same problem. Every QB has their faults, even the so-called elite ones. And Tony Romo is a joke. I heard today someone ask a question if Brett Favre is now the third best QB in the AFC now that he is with the Jets. I almost fell off my chair. Mr. INT man is not even in the top 5 in the AFC, never mind third.

Who would you say is better than Favre right now in the AFC? Manning, Ben, Brady...and who? Not Rivers. Not Palmer. Not Cutler. I would say those are the likely top 3 (other) candidates for the last two spots in the top 5.

Favre may hold the INT record, but you have to look at it in regards to INT per attempt or at a TD/INT ratio. He's better than a whole lot of guys when you look at stats in those regards.

revefsreleets
08-07-2008, 05:16 PM
Whatever...it's all good. Ben IS an elite QB, and his best years are still ahead of him. It's easy to see for those who have followed him closely, and watched his game get better. For those who stab in the dark, it's fun to bash and try and bust down, but that only lasts until he starts winging the ball all over the place, and he WILL be airing it out this year (But the Steelers will still be a run first team...that's just the way it is).

I can't WAIT!

Steel Pit
08-08-2008, 01:17 AM
I am a Steelers homer from the get go. BUT, I have to agree here. Ben has to get better in the red zone with his decision making before he joins the "elite" status in my opinion. TDs or field goals EVERY TIME instead of those INTS that he is prone to throw early in games. He has to get over that. Once he does that, no team will beat the Steelers because once Ben gets that figured out, there will be no stopping them. I hate Brady with a passion and will never admit he is the best QB in the game. Put some pressure on him and he folds like a cheap card table. Manning is definitely great but he has the same problem. Every QB has their faults, even the so-called elite ones. And Tony Romo is a joke. I heard today someone ask a question if Brett Favre is now the third best QB in the AFC now that he is with the Jets. I almost fell off my chair. Mr. INT man is not even in the top 5 in the AFC, never mind third.

Yes Ben has certainly thrown his share of interceptions in the red zone but I have found that I'm usually cussing out the offensive coordinator on those occasions. I've seen Ben throw multiple interceptions while attempting to hit Heath Miller on an inside slant pattern in the endzone during1st and goal situations. Yes Ben is partly responsible but in my opinion it's a bone head play call. Run the freaking ball on 1st and goal inside the 10.

In regards to Favre....I've heard enough about that dude over the past month. I just don't feel that he's as important to the common football fan as the media believes him to be. I'm going to predict that he re-retires before the regular season begins.:popcorn:

SteelMember
08-08-2008, 08:42 AM
Who would you say is better than Favre right now in the AFC? Manning, Ben, Brady...and who? Not Rivers. Not Palmer. Not Cutler. I would say those are the likely top 3 (other) candidates for the last two spots in the top 5.

Favre may hold the INT record, but you have to look at it in regards to INT per attempt or at a TD/INT ratio. He's better than a whole lot of guys when you look at stats in those regards.

Brett Farve...Zzzzzzzzz.

He might have had more jump on the offense in TB. Learning new terminology for the same type of WC system would have been easier than learning a whole new system. We'll see how much they cater to what he already knows.
NY fans might be excited now, but a few let downs and under the bus he'll go. :tomato:

rbryan
08-08-2008, 09:50 AM
I agree on that assumption. Lets see how the drama queens fragile ego handles the scrutiny of the NY media when things aren't going well. As badly as things ended for him in GB, its destined to be a whole lot worse in the Big Apple.

missedgehead
08-08-2008, 10:40 AM
I am from the NY/NJ area originally and trust me, if Farve starts screwing up , trust me , the honeymoon will be over in a New York Minute.

fansince'76
08-08-2008, 10:42 AM
When did this become another Brett Favre thread? There's already about 15 of them in the NFL subforum.

SteelMember
08-08-2008, 11:58 AM
When did this become another Brett Favre thread? There's already about 15 of them in the NFL subforum.
Who would you say is better than Favre right now in the AFC? Manning, Ben, Brady...and who? Not Rivers. Not Palmer. Not Cutler. I would say those are the likely top 3 (other) candidates for the last two spots in the top 5.

Favre may hold the INT record, but you have to look at it in regards to INT per attempt or at a TD/INT ratio. He's better than a whole lot of guys when you look at stats in those regards.

Brett has taken over ALL the news. He has his own ticker now you know.

BREAKING NEWS.....MLB....NFL....FAVRE.... :coffee:

xfl2001fan
08-08-2008, 12:05 PM
Brett has taken over ALL the news. He has his own ticker now you know.

BREAKING NEWS.....MLB....NFL....FAVRE.... :coffee:

Yeah, sorry for the "hijack help". I saw the hook and bit! lol I've actually tried to avoid dropping the "F" bomb anywhere on any thread.

steel striker
08-09-2008, 07:12 PM
Judging by his QB rating, it was more than just a running game and great defense. However, teams were certainly more concerned with the running game that year than they were with a rookie QB. He did a great job that season, but he didn't exactly "light up" teams. As stated earlier, as a fan of football, I want to see one more season of more than 20 passing TDs before I annoint him as a "great/elite" QB. As with 2 years ago, I can accept throwing out injury riddled seasons as an aberration. I've got 3 seasons so far that tell me he is an extremely effective/efficient QB. I have only 1 season that tells me he's a playmaker.

Well let me ask you this then did you watch the 2005 div payoff game steelers vs colt? I'll just say that Ben look like like the better qb in that game. Also name a qb alive or dead who makes the tackle on Nick Harper after Bettis fumbles? Now in the 2005 afc championship game vs the broncos I recall Ben have a very good day almost 300 yards 2 td's passes and one td rushing. I'll go out on a limb here give Ben the time to throw and, watch who will be the best qb in the league. Like it was mentioned above when Brady does not have 5 minutes to throw he looks very average at qb.

xfl2001fan
08-09-2008, 09:06 PM
I did watch the 2005 div game. I also watched the 2005 AFCC Game.

However, my position has not changed. Let me try to make this very clear, because the first couple of times I've said it haven't gotten through.

I want to see one more season of more than 20 passing TDs before I annoint him as a great/elite QB.

You can throw all sorts of numbers up...and so can I. At the end of the day, you have your opinion...and my numbers mean nothing to you. At the end of the day, I have my opinion. Bringing up specific instances where he did good won't change that. I can bring up specific instances where he didn't do so well...but a great running game and great defense saved him. Why bother? It changes nothing.

One last time...

I want to see one more season of more than 20 passing TDs before I annoint him as a great/elite QB.

lilyoder6
08-09-2008, 10:05 PM
being a great/elite qb doesn't always mean u have 2 have the numbers.. b/c last time i checked ben has a superbowl ring.. more than most of the qb's who ever played the game

xfl2001fan
08-09-2008, 10:06 PM
being a great/elite qb doesn't always mean u have 2 have the numbers.. b/c last time i checked ben has a superbowl ring.. more than most of the qb's who ever played the game

As does Trent Dilfer.

stlrtruck
08-11-2008, 09:13 AM
The problem is that in today's NFL people place stats with greatness and that's just not true. Look at Terry Bradshaw, he was this great QB but what he was, was a great field leader that could get the job done when it had to be done...and the players followed him.
And while brady and peyton have the ability to lead, they also display images of immaturity when it falls down around them. Peyton after the 2006 AFCDG and brady anytime he gets touched! Great players, know how to handle the situation and while Ben hasn't been perfect, he's definitely been better than the so-called top 2.

9-5
08-12-2008, 01:31 PM
The problem is that in today's NFL people place stats with greatness and that's just not true. Look at Terry Bradshaw, he was this great QB but what he was, was a great field leader that could get the job done when it had to be done...and the players followed him.
And while brady and peyton have the ability to lead, they also display images of immaturity when it falls down around them. Peyton after the 2006 AFCDG and brady anytime he gets touched! Great players, know how to handle the situation and while Ben hasn't been perfect, he's definitely been better than the so-called top 2.
Terry Bradshaw also had the best defense of his time, a beastly running game, a great offensive line, and 2 big time receivers. I don't think too many quarterbacks would of had problems winning with those teams.

So, are you saying you can't be mad after you get sacked/hit?

Brady and Manning are the top two because they are the best QB's in the league today. Brady has 3 rings, Manning has one. Both of them put up ridiculous numbers. Ben has one ring, and has one "elite" season. So, how exactly is he better?

fansince'76
08-12-2008, 01:46 PM
Brady and Manning are the top two because they are the best QB's in the league today. Brady has 3 rings, Manning has one. Both of them put up ridiculous numbers. Ben has one ring, and has one "elite" season. So, how exactly is he better?

Put either of them behind the Steelers' OL last year and neither one makes it to week 10 before landing on IR. Put Ben behind either of their OLs and he breaks records as well.

Haiku_Dirtt
08-12-2008, 01:51 PM
We played two of our worst games of the season against Jax last year and lost both games by a combined 9 points. If we would have brought our "C" game, those games are wins.

New England, granted, has had our number.

San Diego, loaded talentwise, but I still seriously question Norv Turner as the HC.

Indy, yep, they're tough.

Washington and Philly are both very winnable games, IMO.

Many folks are in awe of the Giants' D because of the Super Bowl. I don't share that awe. The Pats ran out of gas by the time the Super Bowl rolled around and the Giants played above themselves. The fact remains that they got lit up for 45 points against the Cowboys in the beginning of the season, and the Pats put up almost 40 on them in the last game of the season. This ain't the '85 Bears or '76 Steelers D we're facing here, folks. They're good on D, but not great.

Cowboys are overrated, IMO. Wade Phillips. 'Nuff said.

We blew the Ratbirds off the field in the first game and lost to them the second game simply because we took the last game off and rested our starters for the playoffs - well, the ones that were still healthy at that point, anyway.

Browns - will be tougher, but still both very winnable games, IMO.

Bengals - should be two wins, and will be very worried if that doesn't happen.

Vince Young? I'll worry about him when he learns how to play QB as opposed to being another RB who lines up behind center.

Houston? We could very well lose this one with our annoying habit of playing down to our competition in recent years.

Accuse me of drinking the Kool-Aid, but I see at LEAST 10 wins on this schedule.

I'm leaning towards the 6-10 camp but what you layout is a completely credible outcome.

The rookies had a fine showing in the debut. The Dixon to Sweed completion and Mendenhall's first rush were eye-opening.

Granted Jax also brought their C game but with innovative play callling your right...these games can go either way.