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Preacher
08-12-2008, 10:11 PM
Check out this speech.

He sounds like George Bush or Reagan in policy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece


I guess the old adage still stands....

Regardless of the candidate, conservatism wins elections.

revefsreleets
08-12-2008, 10:20 PM
Haven't I been saying this over and over again? If this guy keeps shifting his policy from far left to the center, he will eventually become a completely different candidate. Since Reagan was able to be a conservative while still paying homage to FDR, why can't Obama be a liberal who tries to become Reagan while hoping to later channel FDR? At least that's the "thinking"...

Obama is something new. It's beyond pandering. He's literally a doppelganger...more deceit and obfuscation are NOT what this country needs right now.

tony hipchest
08-12-2008, 10:43 PM
more deceit and obfuscation are NOT what this country needs right now.thats easy to SAY, but what exactly does this country need right now? and what one man is capable of delivering it?

i can say this much. what it doesnt need is a war in iraq costing a billion dollars a day for the next hunnerd years, with the peanut butter and jelly promises of "no new taxes", and the diatribe of "evil libs want to raise taxes".

someones gotta pay (as oil companies reap record profits).

Preacher
08-13-2008, 02:08 AM
thats easy to SAY, but what exactly does this country need right now? and what one man is capable of delivering it?

i can say this much. what it doesnt need is a war in iraq costing a billion dollars a day for the next hunnerd years, with the peanut butter and jelly promises of "no new taxes", and the diatribe of "evil libs want to raise taxes".

someones gotta pay (as oil companies reap record profits).

Tony...

for 20 plus years, oil companies have been UNDERcharging America for gas because the was what the market bore... It was WAY under the inflation.

Yet, for twenty years we said or did nothing... now, for about 4 years, they are priced above inflation... and they are all of a sudden evil? I know you didn't say that, but that is the what is being printed of them in the papers.

If it was right for them to stay way under inflation because that is what the market demanded, isn't ir right for them to charge over inflation because the market demands it?

Otherwise, shouldn't we supplement the oil companies for the prices when they fall below inflation?

___________

Today, my choice has become easier, because McCain did not hedge at ALL when it came to Iraq, nor to Georgia. I really think that Obama is out of his league at this point.

had it been the mid 90's, that may not be the case. But now, well, separation is starting to happen (at least for me)

revefsreleets
08-13-2008, 08:06 AM
You're missing the point. This guy can't stand firm on ANYTHING. I thought Hillary was bad about saying/doing anything and everything necessary to get elected, but ripping off Reagan? It's like Hunter Thompson suddenly publicly exclaiming that he was always all wrong about Nixon.

It's just too much. Dude needs to show some kind of restraint. He's currently getting his clock cleaned via Georgia/Russia right now, too, with all this UN bullshit...

tony hipchest
08-13-2008, 09:18 AM
You're missing the point. This guy can't stand firm on ANYTHING. I thought Hillary was bad about saying/doing anything and everything necessary to get elected, but ripping off Reagan? It's like Hunter Thompson suddenly publicly exclaiming that he was always all wrong about Nixon.

It's just too much. Dude needs to show some kind of restraint. He's currently getting his clock cleaned via Georgia/Russia right now, too, with all this UN bullshit... i thought your point was that america does NOT need something way worse than pandering i.e. "deceit and obamafuscation" (sure beats plague and pestilence). just to make sure i get your point i ask, is what we need NOW a stright arrow who maintains the status quo?

i gotta lot more important things to worry and about and think there are more pressing issues than some man ripping off a reagan speech... or flags on an airplane's tail fin.

:coffee:

tony hipchest
08-13-2008, 09:29 AM
Tony...

Otherwise, shouldn't we supplement the oil companies for the prices when they fall below inflation?

absurd and rediculous.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_bi_ge/corporations_income_tax

Most companies in US avoid federal income taxes

WASHINGTON - Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.


The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.

Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.

"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
america enjoyed cheaper gas prices because we buy in bulk and get a discount. a microcosm of this is wal-mart, who is able to offer "everyday low prices" and $4 prescriptions.

i get capitalism. and i get that it is EVERY americans right to come up with an idea, work hard, become a billionaire and live like a king. in some countries, one has to be born into royalty. in america we have the opportunity to create it.

but with those rights and opportunities should come a price.

the military protects those rights. the labor force carries them out. yet many members of the military and workforce rely on welfare (and are looked down upon for doing so) to suppliment their checks as they pay 33% in taxes.

i will never shed a tear for all the money oil tycoons lost in the prior 20 years ( :bs: ) because of "UNDER"inflated gas prices.

revefsreleets
08-13-2008, 09:47 AM
Where does a guy like this draw the line? Lying? Cheating? There's just no way of knowing...his character is in question, and he can't stand still long enough for anyone to get some kind of picture as to who HE REALLY IS.

The issue isn't that he's ripping off speech fodder, the issue is that he's a far-left liberal ripping planks from a conservative Republican platform from 30 years ago.

tony hipchest
08-13-2008, 10:46 AM
i would say he draws the line right before lying and cheating. then again, like you said, (we as americicans) i dont really know the man, especially on a personal basis.

i share some of the same skepticism ands concerns. i know the "change" that america needs wont happen with 1 man in 4 years. we have 50 year old problems that will need 50 year solutions.

im not even relying on or expecting a social security check when i hit 65. ive seen a doctor twice in the past 20 years. i couldnt afford college w/o welfare in the form of 2 scholorships and govt. pell grants. my single mother raised 3 of us and we used food stamps to suppliment income until she got a second job. i didnt have cable until i was 16 and that was because we stole it.

so when i hear rich people bitch and whine about paying taxes, when loopholes abound to insure they keep padding their pockets, i take it a bit personal.

but you know what, i am a success story and an example of where the system got it right. i am able to earn nice wages, pay my taxes and contribute to the hopefully continued growth of this country.

Dino 6 Rings
08-13-2008, 11:36 AM
but you know what, i am a success story and an example of where the system got it right. i am able to earn nice wages, pay my taxes and contribute to the hopefully continued growth of this country.

And America thanks you for it Tony. Even though we don't always agree on policies or political views, its great to know we aren't alone out there busting our butts and paying our fair share.

revefsreleets
08-13-2008, 02:29 PM
I know what I get with McCain, and I haven't the slightest clue what I get with Obama, and the story on this dude changes daily, which only makes it worse.

Sorry, that just doesn't work for me...

Preacher
08-13-2008, 02:29 PM
i will never shed a tear for all the money oil tycoons lost in the prior 20 years ( :bs: ) because of "UNDER"inflated gas prices.

I am not saying they lost money to the bottom line...

I am saying they lost money from what they SHOULD have been charging based on inflation.

And that line about "Pay nothing to support our country" is a joke.

They are not paying INCOME tax. (and I would have to see the particulars on that as well).

However, they ARE paying payroll tax, property tax, business license fees, probably hazmat fees or the like. They also provide hundreds of thousands of jobs which the govt. AGAIN takes taxes from, including income tax. Then, the American owners of stock from these companies ALSO pay tax on the earnings of that.

No, they provide quite a bit to our economy. It is just an election year, so it is popular to pick on the big companies... right before they climb back into their back pockets for the next four years.

Preacher
08-13-2008, 02:31 PM
i would say he draws the line right before lying and cheating. then again, like you said, (we as americicans) i dont really know the man, especially on a personal basis.

i share some of the same skepticism ands concerns. i know the "change" that america needs wont happen with 1 man in 4 years. we have 50 year old problems that will need 50 year solutions.

im not even relying on or expecting a social security check when i hit 65. ive seen a doctor twice in the past 20 years. i couldnt afford college w/o welfare in the form of 2 scholorships and govt. pell grants. my single mother raised 3 of us and we used food stamps to suppliment income until she got a second job. i didnt have cable until i was 16 and that was because we stole it.

so when i hear rich people bitch and whine about paying taxes, when loopholes abound to insure they keep padding their pockets, i take it a bit personal.

but you know what, i am a success story and an example of where the system got it right. i am able to earn nice wages, pay my taxes and contribute to the hopefully continued growth of this country.

Its funny how similar we actually are... only to see different results for the same problems.

Person, I would prefer a flat-tax with NO loopholes.

tony hipchest
08-25-2008, 09:20 AM
Its funny how similar we actually are... only to see different results for the same problems.

Person, I would prefer a flat-tax with NO loopholes.

speaking of loopholes-

Tax loopholes cost billions annually: report

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080825/us_nm/usa_tax_loopholes_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Tax and accounting loopholes that largely benefit rich taxpayers and companies cost the U.S. government $20 billion a year even as the pay gap between chief executives and employees has widened, two groups said on Monday.


The biggest loss comes from a "stock option accounting double standard" that allows corporations paying executives stock options to deduct more than their actual expenses, they said.

For example, when UnitedHealth Group Inc paid CEO William McGuire 9 million stock options, it put on its financial statement that the compensation cost the company nothing, according to the Institute for Policy Studies and the group United for a Fair Economy.

But it claimed a tax deduction of $317.7 million, the groups said.

That practice alone costs the U.S. government $10 billion a year, the groups said.

A practice known as deferred compensation -- which allows executives to defer an unlimited amount of pay -- costs the government $80.6 million a year, while other loopholes bring the total lost tax revenue to $20 billion, the groups said.

"It's outrageous that our tax dollars are inflating executive paychecks," said Sarah Anderson, an author of the report. "Surely in these troubled economic times we can find better ways to spend our nation's wealth."



outrageous indeed.

Dino 6 Rings
08-25-2008, 09:37 AM
Its funny how similar we actually are... only to see different results for the same problems.

Person, I would prefer a flat-tax with NO loopholes.

National Sales tax with Zero Income tax on anyone.

You spend 1 million bucks, you're taxed the same % as a person that spends 10 bucks. It'll all work out.

Stlrs4Life
08-26-2008, 08:11 PM
thats easy to SAY, but what exactly does this country need right now? and what one man is capable of delivering it?

i can say this much. what it doesnt need is a war in iraq costing a billion dollars a day for the next hunnerd years, with the peanut butter and jelly promises of "no new taxes", and the diatribe of "evil libs want to raise taxes".

someones gotta pay (as oil companies reap record profits).


We have a Bingo! Somebody gets it!

Stlrs4Life
08-26-2008, 08:15 PM
I know what I get with McCain, and I haven't the slightest clue what I get with Obama, and the story on this dude changes daily, which only makes it worse.

Sorry, that just doesn't work for me...


Yeah, you get at least 4 more years of W. We can do with out that. With Obama, I can at least Hope for change.

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 08:15 AM
Did the Union tell you that?

McCain is far, far, far from WII, although Obama may be turning into WII right before your eyes and ears.

Preacher
08-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Yeah, you get at least 4 more years of W. We can do with out that. With Obama, I can at least Hope for change.

I am not sure what it is you want to do without?

Without almost 7 years without any terrorist attacks after that dreadful year of 2001 and 02?

Without our economy being the strongest in the world... while other economies are tanking worse then ours, the US economy is still holding pretty strong in comparison?

Without a justice department that actually prosecutes financial crimes like the execs of Tyco, Enron, etc. etc., all of who's crimes actually happened under the PREVIOUS president?


Slogans in a union beer hall don't measure up to reality.

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 05:15 PM
Without almost 7 years without any terrorist attacks after that dreadful year of 2001 and 02?



Without a justice department that actually prosecutes financial crimes like the execs of Tyco, Enron, etc. etc., all of who's crimes actually happened under the PREVIOUS president?

.i wonder what they were registered as? rep or dem? wasnt there a bush brother who got busted committing a financial boo-boo back in the day? i guess them getting busted under clintons watch negates al quaeda taking a strike at bush, though right?

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 05:36 PM
Guys need to remember what the title of this thread is...Obama is steeping himself in Reagan-esque rhetoric in order to increase his base, regardless of the fact that every plank shift in his platform runs completely counter to "what he stands for", at least as we are supposed to believe.

Again, "change" is supposed to be about being different, not changing your stances on issues to pander to larger voting bases.

Preacher
08-27-2008, 06:18 PM
i wonder what they were registered as? rep or dem? wasnt there a bush brother who got busted committing a financial boo-boo back in the day? i guess them getting busted under clintons watch negates al quaeda taking a strike at bush, though right?

Nope... You missed my point Tony...

Too many people were using the fact of TIMING to blame the corruption on the Bush administration. I was simply pointing out that those corporations were busted by the supposedly evil, big company, big oil, big energy loving Bush administration of crimes that happened during the Clinton years.

Do I believe that the Clinton's had anything to do with it? Nope. It didn't come to light until the Bush years. But around 2002-3, everywhere you looked, the dem party was trying to lay that scandal at the feet of the Republican party.

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 06:21 PM
Guys need to remember what the title of this thread is...Obama is steeping himself in Reagan-esque rhetoric in order to increase his base, regardless of the fact that every plank shift in his platform runs completely counter to "what he stands for", at least as we are supposed to believe.

Again, "change" is supposed to be about being different, not changing your stances on issues to pander to larger voting bases.meh, any thread with "Obama" in the title is an obama/democrat bashing thread.

we get it. he is a doppleganger and his pandering is beyond despicable. seriously, how many of these threads can we have. instead of discussing rhetoric, wouldnt it be much more challenging to discuss the acutal issues and how "trickle down economics may have contributed to all the loopholes the rich now exploit and enjoy?

After all, we are in a bit of economic turmoil and the rich getting richer, while the poor get poorer isnt just a myth.

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 06:29 PM
How do I know that Obama's next speech won't be singing the praises of supply-side or trickle down economics?

The point is that the issues ARE about positions, and when you have a candidate who's more slippery than a greased pig, there can never actually BE a discussion on issues, because there is no real solid position to argue for or against.

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 06:35 PM
Nope... You missed my point Tony...

Too many people were using the fact of TIMING to blame the corruption on the Bush administration. I was simply pointing out that those corporations were busted by the supposedly evil, big company, big oil, big energy loving Bush administration of crimes that happened during the Clinton years.

Do I believe that the Clinton's had anything to do with it? Nope. It didn't come to light until the Bush years. But around 2002-3, everywhere you looked, the dem party was trying to lay that scandal at the feet of the Republican party.

i guess i did miss your point. by this-



Without almost 7 years without any terrorist attacks after that dreadful year of 2001 and 02?

Without our economy being the strongest in the world... while other economies are tanking worse then ours, the US economy is still holding pretty strong in comparison?

Without a justice department that actually prosecutes financial crimes like the execs of Tyco, Enron, etc. etc., all of who's crimes actually happened under the PREVIOUS president?


... i assumed you were insinuating that w/o the bush administration we woulda had 8 years of constant terrorist attacks, a justice department that didnt worry about white collar crime, and an economy in the tank, with an unbalanced budget.

oops. scratch the unbalanced budget part.

Preacher
08-27-2008, 06:38 PM
meh, any thread with "Obama" in the title is an obama/democrat bashing thread.

we get it. he is a doppleganger and his pandering is beyond despicable. seriously, how many of these threads can we have. instead of discussing rhetoric, wouldnt it be much more challenging to discuss the acutal issues and how "trickle down economics may have contributed to all the loopholes the rich now exploit and enjoy?

After all, we are in a bit of economic turmoil and the rich getting richer, while the poor get poorer isnt just a myth.


That is the entire issue. What are his stands on these issues? That is what drove me to begin this thread.

Oh yeah.. about the loopholes and trickle down economics... try again. It was Reagan who closed MANY of the loopholes in the tax codes in 1981 and 1986. I remember one of them being the ability to claim interest on the credit cards. Furthermore, the tax burden under Reagan and "trickle-down economics" INCREASED ON THE RICH, and DECREASED on the poor.

Here is the link for that last line http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/fig-1.gif

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 06:38 PM
How do I know that Obama's next speech won't be singing the praises of supply-side or trickle down economics?

The point is that the issues ARE about positions, and when you have a candidate who's more slippery than a greased pig, there can never actually BE a discussion on issues, because there is no real solid position to argue for or against.OK then.

so if every topic is gonna turn to obama being a greased pig with his rhetoric, i wont bother remembering what the title of the thread is....

whats the point? :drink:

Preacher
08-27-2008, 06:39 PM
i guess i did miss your point. by this-



... i assumed you were insinuating that w/o the bush administration we woulda had 8 years of constant terrorist attacks, a justice department that didnt worry about white collar crime, and an economy in the tank, with an unbalanced budget.

oops. scratch the unbalanced budget part.

I was insinuating that with the Bush administration, we had all of those things. I was asking someone else if it was those things he wanted to change.

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 06:39 PM
Hey, you're the one voting for the dude, not me.

Preacher
08-27-2008, 06:45 PM
Sadly, I still think this should be my candidate of choice....


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/d00ltaz/205px-Bugs_Bunny1.jpg


Anyone that can take on a martian single handed, escape the clutches of Elmer Fudd, do it all without calling for gun control, and yet push a vegetarian diet should appeal to both sides of the isle... right? RIGHT?

Oh wait.. he did make a couple of those racist cartoons in the 40's against the Japanese. I wonder how that will play in Peoria?

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 06:49 PM
They still call Japs Japs in Peoria, don't they?

Preacher
08-27-2008, 07:01 PM
They still call Japs Japs in Peoria, don't they?

:buttkick:

:chuckle:

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 07:06 PM
Hey, you're the one voting for the dude, not me.:rofl: (that was a very NM response). where did i ever commit myself to voting for him? talk about putting votes in my booth...

yep. thats been my stance all along....

have we even got to the debates yet or seen who mccains veep will be?

check again. :applaudit:

in the meantime i will continue to forget what the titles of these threads are.

even if a group of democrats wished to discuss the "stances" in a positive manner it would immediately turn into an obama bashfest.

:hunch:

That is the entire issue. What are his stands on these issues? That is what drove me to begin this thread. i guess we'll start finding out in january. :wink: :cheer: lol (YAY)!

for some reason, i like using mike tomlin as an analogy. personally, i dont care if he really prefers the 4-3 over the 3-4, or what his stance is, as long as he puts/keeps the right people in position to win and do whats best for the "team" (country).

i admit i was resistant to the change from the comfotable cowher regime, but now i am happy to see someone playing to win as opposed to playing not to lose.

but i am NOT saying (contrary to somes beliefs) that mccain... errrrr cowher would not be capable of winning as well (were he still the president... errrrr HC).

thats just how i see things in my world. i dont demand that anyone accept it.

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 07:13 PM
I just assumed...

Remember, I spent a LOT of energy defending Obama early on. But where he has gone, I cannot follow...

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 07:27 PM
I just assumed...

Remember, I spent a LOT of energy defending Obama early on. But where he has gone, I cannot follow...well you know what thay say about that.

you did defend obama, and i have respected that. infact i thought your post in the wailing wall thread about getting beyond racial differences was the best post in the entire thread (other than my posts where i was burning people of course :chuckle: ).

i defend obama because he is the underdog on this board and there is really nobody else defending the underdog w/o getting blasted. while the majority are looking at this election as the "lesser of 2 evils", i find this election cycle refreshing and exciting.

im on record that i will not throw myself off of a bridge if either wins. i like mccain. i respect the hell out of the fact that tom cruise could play him in a movie. i respect his service to our country even if i dont agree with certain personal issues or stances. i think he would be a fine leader.

and to use another football analogy, i dont like that wade philips is a cowboy, but that is a coach i could play for any day.

Preacher
08-27-2008, 07:28 PM
even if a group of democrats wished to discuss the "stances" in a positive manner it would immediately turn into an obama bashfest.

:hunch:

.

Two quick responses... 1. With the Bushbashfest underway for nearly 7 years, it is probably a bit of Schadenfreude for those who are GOP to now see the same type of arrows thrown at Obama.

That is what is really happening... one party ups the ante, the other ups it more, and the first ups it again.

2. I think there have been a few threads on such subjects... and can be. Start one, I would love to discuss it.

revefsreleets
08-27-2008, 07:30 PM
I still stand by the statement that I'll be proud of my country if they elect Obama. And I'll stand by my President as much as I can whomever he may be.

I'm done with myopic straight party politics, and I feel bad for people who toe that line. It's part of the demise of this country that we MUST see things in only black and white, but it happened like a boiling frog, so...

steelreserve
08-27-2008, 07:59 PM
Yeah, you get at least 4 more years of W. We can do with out that. With Obama, I can at least Hope for change.

I hope that whatever Obama wants me to be Excited and Hopeful about is better than sending my daughter to college or buying a new car. Because that's basically what he's asking me to sacrifice in order to make him the president.

I've done some checking, and his tax increases would cost me somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 a year, and easily in the tens of thousands if I were to ever inherit anything. Sorry, but I have better things to do with that money than pay for some stranger's health care.

So it looks like I'm voting for McCain. The price of gas can go to $8 and stay there forever, and it won't do nearly as much harm to my family as Obama's taxes. People keep preaching that the Iraq is tragically killing all of our young people and bankrupting the country -- but it's barely 5% of the federal budget, and more Americans get killed on the highways every month than have died in the entire Iraq War.

So basically, if anyone out there wants Obama to win because of some vague moral outrage about the way our country is headed, they can go die in a fire. You'd be fixing a tiny sliver of the country's problems at the expense of a huge penalty to your own well-being.

tony hipchest
08-27-2008, 08:16 PM
I still stand by the statement that I'll be proud of my country if they elect Obama. And I'll stand by my President as much as I can whomever he may be.

I'm done with myopic straight party politics, and I feel bad for people who toe that line. It's part of the demise of this country that we MUST see things in only black and white, but it happened like a boiling frog, so...now that is something we will ALWAYS agree upon. that is a "stance" that supercedes so many others (some that may be trivial compared to that).

"united we stand... divided we fall". :drink:

:guitar: :whistle: ".....to secure peace is to prepare for war!!!!!". :tt03: (sorry... typing that brought back a metallica flashback).




2. I think there have been a few threads on such subjects... and can be. Start one, I would love to discuss it.
you got it, kind sir. :hatsoff:


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as soon as i wrap up my Positive Attributes of Marvin Lewis & Romeo Crennell thread in the NFL Forum. :sofunny:

as far as the "Schadenfreude" comment- typical "2 wrongs making a (GOP) right" snowball effect. :chuckle:

its a shame to see grown men/women, highly paid/elected officials resort to, that but it IS what our 2 party political system has devolved into...

Preacher
08-27-2008, 08:40 PM
now that is something we will ALWAYS agree upon. that is a "stance" that supercedes so many others (some that may be trivial compared to that).

"united we stand... divided we fall". :drink:

:guitar: :whistle: ".....to secure peace is to prepare for war!!!!!". :tt03: (sorry... typing that brought back a metallica flashback).



you got it, kind sir. :hatsoff:
as soon as i wrap up my Positive Attributes of Marvin Lewis & Romeo Crennell thread in the NFL Forum. :sofunny:

as far as the "Schadenfreude" comment- typical "2 wrongs making a (GOP) right" snowball effect. :chuckle:

its a shame to see grown men/women, highly paid/elected officials resort to, that but it IS what our 2 party political system has devolved into...

Actually,

I think what we are seeing is the shockwaves of the 94 election cycle still...

That was the cycle beyond all others that polarized conservatives as republicans and liberals as democrats... a move that began in about 68 or so.

Honestly, I think a constitutional amendment on abortion... either way, and an overhauling of how judges are placed on the bench would go a LONG way to making this system civil again.

Atlanta Dan
08-27-2008, 09:30 PM
Honestly, I think a constitutional amendment on abortion... either way, and an overhauling of how judges are placed on the bench would go a LONG way to making this system civil again.

So what amendment do you want? - outlawing it; letting the legislatures regulate it as they regard as appropriate, something else?

My view is it is an issue for the state legislatures, not a judicial issue - my bet is Georgia would outlaw all abortions but Delta is ready when you are and flights to LaGuardia and what I assume would be a different approach in New York leave every hour

As for "how judges are placed on the bench" do you want them elected? For starters we need to pay them more; a first year associate in a big law firm makes more than a federal district judge

Just wondering

P.S. - This is not a back door attempt to engage on the relative merits of Obama, McCain, or W - kudos to Tony but I have sworn off those discussions

Preacher
08-28-2008, 12:40 AM
So what amendment do you want? - outlawing it; letting the legislatures regulate it as they regard as appropriate, something else?

My view is it is an issue for the state legislatures, not a judicial issue - my bet is Georgia would outlaw all abortions but Delta is ready when you are and flights to LaGuardia and what I assume would be a different approach in New York leave every hour

As for "how judges are placed on the bench" do you want them elected? For starters we need to pay them more; a first year associate in a big law firm makes more than a federal district judge

Just wondering

P.S. - This is not a back door attempt to engage on the relative merits of Obama, McCain, or W - kudos to Tony but I have sworn off those discussions

My post wasn't directed to what should or shouldn't be... but rather when that political football is laid to rest in such a way that it CANT be resurrected, EITHER way, and when the politics of grandstanding are removed from the selection of judges, the political system itself will get better.

I was speaking of process, not the issues themselves.

xfl2001fan
08-28-2008, 11:27 AM
A heart beat exists at 6 weeks gestation, you're stopping a beating heart. Abortion = death. Forget all the religious BS that might be tied in with it, let the killings be stopped. Adoption is an option.

tony hipchest
08-28-2008, 12:40 PM
I hope that whatever Obama wants me to be Excited and Hopeful about is better than sending my daughter to college or buying a new car. Because that's basically what he's asking me to sacrifice in order to make him the president.

I've done some checking, and his tax increases would cost me somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 a year, and easily in the tens of thousands if I were to ever inherit anything. Sorry, but I have better things to do with that money than pay for some stranger's health care.

So it looks like I'm voting for McCain. The price of gas can go to $8 and stay there forever, and it won't do nearly as much harm to my family as Obama's taxes. People keep preaching that the Iraq is tragically killing all of our young people and bankrupting the country -- but it's barely 5% of the federal budget, and more Americans get killed on the highways every month than have died in the entire Iraq War.

So basically, if anyone out there wants Obama to win because of some vague moral outrage about the way our country is headed, they can go die in a fire. You'd be fixing a tiny sliver of the country's problems at the expense of a huge penalty to your own well-being.i hear you on college. isnt it funny how college tuition rates seem to increase 7-10% each year, year after year? this is way beyond inflation. and books, room and board is a like a monopolized racket ran by the mob. at this rate it seems only the elite rich will be able to attend.

so college will eventually become exclusive to only rich kids who stand to inherit fortunes for doing nothing and not pay taxes on any of it. really seems like a good method for the rich to get richer and the poor get poorer. in the meantime, the poor turn to crime and flipping burgers for the rich man.

isnt it funny, how in highschool they offer "home economics" so our girls can learn to be a housewife, barefoot and pregnant, or a waitres, or preparing fries at mcdonalds? "that grease needs to be at 425 degrees".

where are the classes on "college economics" where a kid can learn to apply for grants, scholorships, learn how to stay out of debt (credit card companies DEFINITELY dont want this curriculum), effectively pay taxes, find the loopholes, save, invest, etc. ? every high school should offer this. but it seems like the rich posess much more knowledge to effectively manage money. shouldnt kids be given access to this in school, as well as "home ec"?

speaking of teaching my daughter to learn the phrase "welcome to mcdonalds may i take your order please?" i had to send 10 bucks with her today to kindergarden so they can cook every thursday. if the school cant afford the ingredients they dont need to teach it. in the meantime kids in india, china, and japan are learning reading, writing, and math.

speaking of teaching our kids to be dumb, poor, barefoot and pregnant, on welfare, isnt it funny how we used to socialize our kids by playing "follow the leader"? :tap: how bout girls playing with dolls, and boys playing with little green army men? so they can learn to go fight the wars for the rich man? its no coincidence the poor have a much higher enlistment rate than the rich.

how bout playing "cowboys and put the poor indians on the reservation while we pump them full of alcohol so they can run the casinos that other poor people will fill with their cash so they dont save or invest it"? its no coincidence the poor have a higher rate of gambling addiction and alcoholism.

isnt it funny, how nowadays we socialize our children with playing video games that were probably written and programmed by some 14 year old kid in japan or india? funny how we teach our kids with hundereds of cartoon channels that idle time is time well spent so that they become fat and lazy and have no initiative to go to school or work hard. if school doesnt constantly entertain them with cooking, they quickly lose interest. isnt it funny how drug companies are quick to diagnose this as ADD and make an expensive pill to "fix it". yeah, those companies need to have the hell taxed out of them.

speaking of hell, taxes, and death, like the MAJORITY of americans i dont come from money so the only thing i really stand to inherit is a funeral bill and debt. im becoming more and more of a fan of the inheritance tax. i understand many rich work hard to earn their wealth (rarely is it through physical back breaking labor) but once theyre gont, they cant take it with them. why not give back to the country that sends its poor to war, who protect and serve, and preserve their right to live like a king?

you know, i got accepted to PITT and carnegie mellon (and wanted to go to med school at UPMC) but the ROTC would not pay the huge out of state tuition so i just used one of the 2 in state scholorships i got. UNM has a fine med school. i found this article interesting-

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/mostread/s_584295.html
Profits at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center took a nose dive last year, falling to $5 million from $612 million a year before, officials reported in financial statements being released today. now i wish i woulda taken "college economics" in high school because i had no other guidance. :dang: oh thats right, it wasnt offered. :banging:

for anyone struggling paying for college i'd suggest checking out the AmeriCorp program started by bill clinton. i think its a great idea and designed to provide a great service to ALL of society (rich and poor).

Mosca
08-28-2008, 01:18 PM
I hope that whatever Obama wants me to be Excited and Hopeful about is better than sending my daughter to college or buying a new car. Because that's basically what he's asking me to sacrifice in order to make him the president.

I've done some checking, and his tax increases would cost me somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 a year, and easily in the tens of thousands if I were to ever inherit anything. Sorry, but I have better things to do with that money than pay for some stranger's health care.

So it looks like I'm voting for McCain. The price of gas can go to $8 and stay there forever, and it won't do nearly as much harm to my family as Obama's taxes. People keep preaching that the Iraq is tragically killing all of our young people and bankrupting the country -- but it's barely 5% of the federal budget, and more Americans get killed on the highways every month than have died in the entire Iraq War.

So basically, if anyone out there wants Obama to win because of some vague moral outrage about the way our country is headed, they can go die in a fire. You'd be fixing a tiny sliver of the country's problems at the expense of a huge penalty to your own well-being.

According to the Washington Post, I will get a greater tax cut under Obama.... and revenue goes up. I could give a flying leap if some investment broker or corporate raider gets gored for an extra $1M out of his $20M yearly bonus that he got for running a company into the ground; I get more from the guy in the blue.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

Preacher
08-28-2008, 03:16 PM
According to the Washington Post, I will get a greater tax cut under Obama.... and revenue goes up. I could give a flying leap if some investment broker or corporate raider gets gored for an extra $1M out of his $20M yearly bonus that he got for running a company into the ground; I get more from the guy in the blue.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

You'll care a heck of a lot when that guy puts all his money in the bank instead of spending it... along with everyone else and the economy grounds to a halt.

Mosca
08-29-2008, 09:39 AM
You'll care a heck of a lot when that guy puts all his money in the bank instead of spending it... along with everyone else and the economy grounds to a halt.

LOL, you mean to tell me that if a guy takes home $19M instead of $20M, he's going to get all huffy and pout, and stop treating himself to luxury? Right, he's going to park the Maybach and drive the Prius today. And he's going to cancel that vacation to Rio on the private yacht. And sell the Gulfstream.

Or, he's going to put in that something extra and earn enough more in his job to cover what got taken. That's how I do it where I work. If I get a commission % cut, I work harder to make it back up. If I get a tax increase, I work harder to make it back up. When I had to start paying for my health care, I worked harder to make it back up.

These aren't guys who are on salary; these are guys who are getting paid to produce, and who are bonused on production. Corporate compensation at the highest level is out of control, and just barely connected to production. I have no sympathy for the insanely rich; after all, they have no sympathy for me. And even after all this, they'll still be insanely rich, and I'll still be mucking around in their footprints. But at least the national revenue will increase, in the country that has allowed them to become rich.

And the myth that Obama will increase taxes on the working folks... not true. He will cut them more than McCain will. But McCain will give a BIGGER tax cut, in terms of PERCENTAGE, to the wealthiest Americans!

tony hipchest
08-29-2008, 11:09 AM
LOL, you mean to tell me that if a guy takes home $19M instead of $20M, he's going to get all huffy and pout, and stop treating himself to luxury? Right, he's going to park the Maybach and drive the Prius today. And he's going to cancel that vacation to Rio on the private yacht. And sell the Gulfstream.

Or, he's going to put in that something extra and earn enough more in his job to cover what got taken. That's how I do it where I work. If I get a commission % cut, I work harder to make it back up. If I get a tax increase, I work harder to make it back up. When I had to start paying for my health care, I worked harder to make it back up.

These aren't guys who are on salary; these are guys who are getting paid to produce, and who are bonused on production. Corporate compensation at the highest level is out of control, and just barely connected to production. I have no sympathy for the insanely rich; after all, they have no sympathy for me. And even after all this, they'll still be insanely rich, and I'll still be mucking around in their footprints. But at least the national revenue will increase, in the country that has allowed them to become rich.

And the myth that Obama will increase taxes on the working folks... not true. He will cut them more than McCain will. But McCain will give a BIGGER tax cut, in terms of PERCENTAGE, to the wealthiest Americans!:applaudit: thank you mosca. im glad obama touched on this last night in his speech and i sorta touched on it in yesterdays rant on college.

this is my biggest problem with trickle down economics. its like the elite rich say "youre poor because youre stupid" but then youre stupid because youre poor and cant attend wharton. since youre stupid and not equipped to manage youre money, give it to us and we'll manage it for you. in the meantime they get richer and we have education and schools going down the pisser. highest infant death rate of all industrilized nations. highest rate of medically uninsured. highest rate of murder per capita.

so we give them there money and they bitch about after school programs to keep kids off the street, giving teachers payraises, providing all children with healthcare, while people like rush limbaugh call them stupid and lazy.

trickle down economics is like putting your money in a bank at 1% interrest, watching the banker collect 10% interest, and having him kick you in the ass as you walk out the door. "take it and like it. heres you some food stamps to shut you the f -up".

the philosophy is great on paper. too bad many people just see it as a way to accumulate more wealth and "keep it in the family".

Hammer67
08-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Well...the speech, for me, sounded a little Clintonish in 92...big on promises. What I want to know, any time I hear a liberal politician talk, is "how are you going to pay for all that???".

People keep talking about how bad everything is and how everyone is doing poorly over the last eight years. I don't know. I was laid off under Clinton. Now, I make more then I ever have and I found a fantastic job in Detroit of all places. Things aren't as bad as politicians and the media let on. Maybe for the autoworker that has become accustomed to making $60,000+ every year to pop rivets into sheet metal and then wonders why the Big Three are tanking...

I see through the BS. I am tired of this society where people expect the goverment to solve all their problems...what a joke.

My solution for fair tax? National sales tax, baby. www.fairtax.org.

Vote Libertarian...

tony hipchest
08-29-2008, 06:35 PM
I see through the BS. I am tired of this society where people expect the goverment to solve all their problems...what a joke.

...

ummmm..... if we pay the government trillions of dollars in taxes shouldnt we expect them to solve some basic fundamental problems?

steveironcity
08-29-2008, 06:44 PM
ummmm..... if we pay the government trillions of dollars in taxes shouldnt we expect them to solve some basic fundamental problems?

You'd think so. But when it dosent happen, we always have Karl Rove to blame... He is evil after all

revefsreleets
08-29-2008, 06:56 PM
That's the problem with the kid of speech he gave last night...there IS no way to pay for all that stuff, ergo, most of what he discussed will never come to fruition. It'd be refreshing for a politician to, for once, say "Guess what? I can't fix everything. But I'm going to concentrate on these three area in my first term, and see what I can do. This is my plan, this is how we're going to pay for it, and this is what I hope to see as a return. We can talk more after 3 years and see what's next".

Obama set himself up for failure by overextending himself. Sure it's great to be optimistic and hopeful and all that, but it's over-the-top Utopian thinking, which is always the downfall of the far left.

The one thing you can be sure of is that no one will ever try to do what Carter did (which he cribbed from FDR, but that was a different and better vanished era) with his "Crisis of Confidence" speech again. Americans want what they want, and they want it right now. Nobody wants to hear anything negative...and they certainly don't want to be told they will have to tighten their belts and work a little harder to pull through. Americans (not all, but A LOT) want to eat junk food and watch Paris Hilton on TV and play the lottery...

fansince'76
08-29-2008, 07:00 PM
It'd be refreshing for a politician to, for once, say "Guess what? I can't fix everything. But I'm going to concentrate on these three area in my first term, and see what I can do. This is my plan, this is how we're going to pay for it, and this is what I hope to see as a return. We can talk more after 3 years and see what's next".

Yes, it would be refreshing to hear that. Problem is, any candidate that actually says something like it would lose in a landslide....

revefsreleets
08-29-2008, 07:04 PM
I'm not so sure...they'd have to walk the tightrope. Carter dared too much and fell...I think it can be done.

Hammer67
08-29-2008, 07:34 PM
ummmm..... if we pay the government trillions of dollars in taxes shouldnt we expect them to solve some basic fundamental problems?

Yes, dealing with other nations. Which is what the Federal government is there for.

Not for bailing out people who were stupid and took on shitty mortgages, or for people who don't understand how to invest and are scared by privatization of Social Security or for people who drop out of school have a ton of kids and can't afford them...etc, etc.

tony hipchest
08-29-2008, 07:54 PM
Yes, dealing with other nations. Which is what the Federal government is there for.

Not for bailing out people who were stupid and took on shitty mortgages, or for people who don't understand how to invest and are scared by privatization of Social Security or for people who drop out of school have a ton of kids and can't afford them...etc, etc.

so its ok to give welfare abroad as long as we bitch about it being done domestically?

we'll see how far nation building for security while our own foundation is crumbling gets us.

i would prefer paying off some debt so the chinese and saudis dont own us in 50-100 years.

unless we plan on using our mighty military to wipe them off the map and erase all debt. :drink:

revefsreleets
08-29-2008, 08:01 PM
The fact of the matter is, the US and China are the 2 new superpowers. We need to adapt and overcome quicker than they do, and we are woefully behind on that count...

But, in our defense, we were supposed to become second fiddle to Japan by now, and that economy couldn't hold up no matter what kind of manipulation they applied. I'm not sure we can keep pulling this rabbit out the hat if we don't do more to bolster our own intellectual infrastructure, though...

Hammer67
08-29-2008, 08:03 PM
so its ok to give welfare abroad as long as we bitch about it being done domestically?

we'll see how far nation building for security while our own foundation is crumbling gets us.

i would prefer paying off some debt so the chinese and saudis dont own us in 50-100 years.

unless we plan on using our mighty military to wipe them off the map and erase all debt. :drink:

No...welfare abroad is also shameful. I am a fan of the Monroe Doctrine...unfortunately, in this era that isn't possible.

revefsreleets
08-29-2008, 08:39 PM
It serves a purpose and usually produces a return on investment. Isolationism is just as Utopian as the whole "We all live in a world of flowers and peace and love" from the left.

Havik
08-29-2008, 10:30 PM
This is the life of me, a 27 year old male with a college degree living in Columbus, OH.

I make $9.50 an hour. I can barely afford rent, my car payment, and bills. I have to pay my student loans on time, or my wages get garnished. Some days I have to go without a meal because I have to pay for gas to get to and from work, which is only 10 miles from where I live. I have to go to a church to get food which should be going to people less fortunate than me. I sprained my knee and have trouble walking, and can't see a doctor because I have no insurance and can't afford to have it fixed. I get denied raises despite working for my company 2 years and being one of their best employees. To me America is about working hard and being rewarded for it. I have worked hard my whole life to make something of myself and have nothing to show for it. I don't even want children because I know I can't take care of them and don't want them living like this no matter how hard they work. I don't care who wins, someone needs to step up and make big changes.

tony hipchest
08-29-2008, 10:49 PM
This is the life of me, a 27 year old male with a college degree living in Columbus, OH.

I make $9.50 an hour. I can barely afford rent, my car payment, and bills. I have to pay my student loans on time, or my wages get garnished. Some days I have to go without a meal because I have to pay for gas to get to and from work, which is only 10 miles from where I live. I have to go to a church to get food which should be going to people less fortunate than me. I sprained my knee and have trouble walking, and can't see a doctor because I have no insurance and can't afford to have it fixed. I get denied raises despite working for my company 2 years and being one of their best employees. To me America is about working hard and being rewarded for it. I have worked hard my whole life to make something of myself and have nothing to show for it. I don't even want children because I know I can't take care of them and don't want them living like this no matter how hard they work. I don't care who wins, someone needs to step up and make big changes.i would much rather my tax dollars got to you as opposed to tax breaks to the elite rich. :drink:

Preacher
08-30-2008, 01:52 AM
LOL, you mean to tell me that if a guy takes home $19M instead of $20M, he's going to get all huffy and pout, and stop treating himself to luxury? Right, he's going to park the Maybach and drive the Prius today. And he's going to cancel that vacation to Rio on the private yacht. And sell the Gulfstream.

Or, he's going to put in that something extra and earn enough more in his job to cover what got taken. That's how I do it where I work. If I get a commission % cut, I work harder to make it back up. If I get a tax increase, I work harder to make it back up. When I had to start paying for my health care, I worked harder to make it back up.

These aren't guys who are on salary; these are guys who are getting paid to produce, and who are bonused on production. Corporate compensation at the highest level is out of control, and just barely connected to production. I have no sympathy for the insanely rich; after all, they have no sympathy for me. And even after all this, they'll still be insanely rich, and I'll still be mucking around in their footprints. But at least the national revenue will increase, in the country that has allowed them to become rich.

And the myth that Obama will increase taxes on the working folks... not true. He will cut them more than McCain will. But McCain will give a BIGGER tax cut, in terms of PERCENTAGE, to the wealthiest Americans!

No, it will NOT increase national revenue... not as much as if you cut the taxes. You think they work hard if they have to give more away? Really? How much harder will they work if they get to keep even more of it?

And those tax increases on only the rich... good luck. We heard the same thing from Clinton, and that is NOT what ended up happening.

In the end, the small business man making 300,000 to 500,000 a year and paying out 200,000 to 400,000 in salaries, insurance, advertising, material, etc. are going to get smothered.

Mark my words.

Hammer67
08-30-2008, 06:56 AM
It serves a purpose and usually produces a return on investment. Isolationism is just as Utopian as the whole "We all live in a world of flowers and peace and love" from the left.

Yup...but it was a great policy for the time.

And, Switzerland seems to get along pretty well with their version of it! LOL!

Hammer67
08-30-2008, 07:02 AM
This is the life of me, a 27 year old male with a college degree living in Columbus, OH.

I make $9.50 an hour. I can barely afford rent, my car payment, and bills. I have to pay my student loans on time, or my wages get garnished. Some days I have to go without a meal because I have to pay for gas to get to and from work, which is only 10 miles from where I live. I have to go to a church to get food which should be going to people less fortunate than me. I sprained my knee and have trouble walking, and can't see a doctor because I have no insurance and can't afford to have it fixed. I get denied raises despite working for my company 2 years and being one of their best employees. To me America is about working hard and being rewarded for it. I have worked hard my whole life to make something of myself and have nothing to show for it. I don't even want children because I know I can't take care of them and don't want them living like this no matter how hard they work. I don't care who wins, someone needs to step up and make big changes.

Dude...you need to change your career or your life. I was in a crappy career path in my mid to late 20's...not liking my job, little money. I got laid off right after 9/11. I was in the pitts....I couldn't even get a beer with my buddy at the bar and I ate microwave noodles all the time. I ended up quitting and moving (to Detroit, mind you) and found work in a new career path which I enjoy...and after a number of years working my way up, I am now an IT manager making a good comfortable living.

One thing I have noticed, especially since moving here, is that people sometimes fear change...changing careers, moving ,etc. My wife is even scared to leave her job because the fear of not finding anything else. I am working with her everyday to get over that. You talk to an auto worker who was maybe a high school dropout and is scared about loosing their job, it's scary how set they are. They know they will never find anything that pays as well for their skills. Many of them are taking assistance from the Big Three and going back to school to find a new career. It sucks, but it is life.

We forge our own destiny...we can't expect miracles from politicians. They set policies that do affect us, but to change our lives requires an effort and a will on our part....

Preacher
08-30-2008, 11:53 AM
Dude...you need to change your career or your life. I was in a crappy career path in my mid to late 20's...not liking my job, little money. I got laid off right after 9/11. I was in the pitts....I couldn't even get a beer with my buddy at the bar and I ate microwave noodles all the time. I ended up quitting and moving (to Detroit, mind you) and found work in a new career path which I enjoy...and after a number of years working my way up, I am now an IT manager making a good comfortable living.

One thing I have noticed, especially since moving here, is that people sometimes fear change...changing careers, moving ,etc. My wife is even scared to leave her job because the fear of not finding anything else. I am working with her everyday to get over that. You talk to an auto worker who was maybe a high school dropout and is scared about loosing their job, it's scary how set they are. They know they will never find anything that pays as well for their skills. Many of them are taking assistance from the Big Three and going back to school to find a new career. It sucks, but it is life.

We forge our own destiny...we can't expect miracles from politicians. They set policies that do affect us, but to change our lives requires an effort and a will on our part....


:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Havik
08-30-2008, 10:14 PM
I am voting for Obama. He may not be the best candidate, I think Bill Richardson or Al Gore would be a better choice, but I think he has a much better plan than McCain to turn things around. His acceptance speech shows that he gets it. Now I know it's not about what you say, it's about what you do, but I'm willing to at least give the guy a chance. The Bush/McCain supporters who think everything is ok are seriously in denial. McCain is a war hero who has my gratitude and respect, but he is the wrong man to lead this country. With McCain as president we will continue to see more of the same things that have run this country to the ground.

I am a hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizen. I'm tired of being ripped off and lied to by my own government. I'm tired of a government bought out by big business, who cares more about serving those who fund their campaigns more than the citizens they represent. I'm tired of stagnant wages and rising food and fuel costs. I'm tired of seeing jobs shipped overseas, and businesses who do so still keeping their tax breaks. I'm tired of the arrogant Bush administration thinking they are above the law. I'm tired of businesses getting away with hiring illegal immigrants. I'm tired of priorities that favor the rich and big corporations over America's well being. I'm tired of hard working people getting the shit end of the stick. I could go on all night.

I am an independent, and there are some issues I disagree with Obama and the Democrats on, and yes I have voted for a few Republicans in the past (never for Bush), but the Republicans have screwed up so bad that I will not be voting for them this year. The Republican's excuses and manipulation has to stop. Everything from the economy to Iraq, education to health care, every problem we are facing the Republicans are content to make excuses instead of find solutions. Whats sad is a lot of people in America are still being manipulated by them and I really hope those like me and Tony who are hungry for change outnumber them.

revefsreleets
08-31-2008, 08:34 PM
Al Gore? Al Gore....

Yikes!

Preacher
08-31-2008, 08:38 PM
i would much rather my tax dollars got to you as opposed to tax breaks to the elite rich. :drink:

I would rather you keep your own tax dollars Tony, and give him some money yourself, rather than take it from you, pay the guy that took it from you, pay the guy that checked the math, and then pay the guy that writes the check, and then pay the guy that mails it out... not to mention pay the guy that take his name and pay the OTHER guy that made the decision to put him on welfare.

yeah... Just give him the dang dollar.

Hammer67
08-31-2008, 10:07 PM
Al Gore? Al Gore....

Yikes!


I know...he lost me at "Gore"....

Hammer67
08-31-2008, 10:13 PM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, I just get tired of people whining all the time of how bad they have it. The autoworkers here are doing it now...you almost cringe when they speak on the news because they have such a tone of entitlement. It's kind of twisted...as if everyone owes them something because they have been overpaid for so long, suckling from the tit of the booming automotive industry. Only now to feel some of the sting of the irresponsible management of said industry.

And teachers...now I am not bashing their importance, but come on!!! A teacher aquaintence I know makes $50,000+ and cries that he is underpaid. The guy works 8 months out of the year, with major holiday breaks. He lays around doing noting but play video games in the summer. My wife works year round with less holidays and makes the same money. So, I always respond with "cry me a river, go get another job if you don't like what you do".

People think the government is there to provide hand outs. And our welfare system does nothing to motivate them. It needs overhauled.

tony hipchest
08-31-2008, 10:33 PM
Well, I just get tired of people whining all the time of how bad they have it. The autoworkers here are doing it now...you almost cringe when they speak on the news because they have such a tone of entitlement. It's kind of twisted...as if everyone owes them something because they have been overpaid for so long, suckling from the tit of the booming automotive industry. Only now to feel some of the sting of the irresponsible management of said industry.

And teachers...now I am not bashing their importance, but come on!!! A teacher aquaintence I know makes $50,000+ and cries that he is underpaid. The guy works 8 months out of the year, with major holiday breaks. He lays around doing noting but play video games in the summer. My wife works year round with less holidays and makes the same money. So, I always respond with "cry me a river, go get another job if you don't like what you do".

People think the government is there to provide hand outs. And our welfare system does nothing to motivate them. It needs overhauled.what does your wife do for a living?

Hammer67
09-01-2008, 08:43 AM
what does your wife do for a living?

Works for Visteon Corp. as a Financial Analyst.

revefsreleets
09-01-2008, 08:56 AM
The only high profile person who moves in political circles I'd be MORE afraid of running this country than Al Gore would be Michael Moore...

Havik
09-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Well, I just get tired of people whining all the time of how bad they have it. The autoworkers here are doing it now...you almost cringe when they speak on the news because they have such a tone of entitlement. It's kind of twisted...as if everyone owes them something because they have been overpaid for so long, suckling from the tit of the booming automotive industry. Only now to feel some of the sting of the irresponsible management of said industry.

And teachers...now I am not bashing their importance, but come on!!! A teacher aquaintence I know makes $50,000+ and cries that he is underpaid. The guy works 8 months out of the year, with major holiday breaks. He lays around doing noting but play video games in the summer. My wife works year round with less holidays and makes the same money. So, I always respond with "cry me a river, go get another job if you don't like what you do".

People think the government is there to provide hand outs. And our welfare system does nothing to motivate them. It needs overhauled.

I am not looking for a handout. As a matter of fact, I am not on any welfare because I don't qualify. I realize there are a lot of people who have it worse than me, but at the same time I used to be able to save money and even contribute to local charities, neither of which I can do anymore because I barely make enough to make ends meet. I spend at least a few hours a week applying for jobs, I haven't had a lot of luck yet but I am trying to do something to change my situation. Wages have not kept pace with inflation and the dollar's value has plummeted, as for the auto workers they have a right to complain, some of their jobs are being shipped overseas! Whats bad is these businesses still get to keep their tax breaks! What's worse is that some state contracted work, which should be done here in the U.S., is being moved overseas as well. I am not "whining", I don't like the way things are going in my country and I am expressing my desire for change. Washington is no different than Wall Street, politicians are bought with favors and campaign funds and turned their backs on the people they are supposed to serve. I understand there has always been corruption in Washington, but we're at the point where our government has been bought out by big business with the most corrupt administration this country has ever seen. You are lucky that you have a good paying job, but how would you feel if it was shipped overseas so that your employer can pay someone less to do your job?

Hammer67
09-01-2008, 05:17 PM
You are lucky that you have a good paying job, but how would you feel if it was shipped overseas so that your employer can pay someone less to do your job?

Already happened....I got another job and worked my way up. If I am a business owner and I had the option of paying someone 1/5 the wages with the same results...I am sorry, but I would outsource too.

I was not pointing at you directly with my comments as I don't know your situation...I am talking more in general terms.

And, you claim I am lucky? I attribute it to hard work and persistence, myself. Being laid off and having to move because of it didn't feel too "lucky" at the time, but my hard work paid off and I have positioned myself well in a new industry (avoiding automotive while I am at it!)

:drink:

tony hipchest
09-01-2008, 05:28 PM
Works for Visteon Corp. as a Financial Analyst.:thumbsup: sounds like theres some upward mobility there.

you and your wife have any kids that will be entering the public school systems?

your buddy's $50,000 a year salary would be quite a modest living in rural new mexico, though im sure the cost of living there (i assume detroit) is probably 30-40% higher than it is here.

i dont mind teachers having 2/3 of the calendar year off. in todays "latchkey kid" society (where both parents are required to work to make a modest living), they act as teachers, anong with parents and babysitters, possibly councilors too.

ive heard that in todays econimics, a housewife is worth $100,000+ a year. :noidea:

Hammer67
09-02-2008, 06:29 AM
:thumbsup: sounds like theres some upward mobility there.

you and your wife have any kids that will be entering the public school systems?

your buddy's $50,000 a year salary would be quite a modest living in rural new mexico, though im sure the cost of living there (i assume detroit) is probably 30-40% higher than it is here.

i dont mind teachers having 2/3 of the calendar year off. in todays "latchkey kid" society (where both parents are required to work to make a modest living), they act as teachers, anong with parents and babysitters, possibly councilors too.

ive heard that in todays econimics, a housewife is worth $100,000+ a year. :noidea:

Actually, Detroit's economy is rather similar to Pittsburgh's (i.e. pretty low cost of living compared to New York or LA, for instance)...and 50g's is a nice salary in the rust belt of the country.

I support the fact that they get time off, not an issue with me. But constantly whining is. 50,000 for 8 months of work is not too bad...really. Being a teacher is a job like anything else. I don't hold teachers above or below other work. It's a job. You know what you are getting into ahead of time.

Being a housewife worth $100,000? Not sure who or how that was calculated but since shie is pregnant we have been investigating whether she should stay at home or start a home business. I know 5 day a week day care can cost 12,000 a year which would be a huge determining factor.

Plus, my wife doesn't have the option of going on strike if she doesn't like her salary. It's either negotiate a better raise or find another job...as it should be. Not much mobility at her company either, not much in any of automotive.