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View Full Version : Trade S. Holmes for DE Osi Umenyiora


tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 06:47 PM
would you do it? well we already did. we gave up our 1st (32nd overall) and 2nd to move up and take holmes. the giants took osi at 32 and wound up with sinorice moss in the 2nd.

word is we woulda taken anthony smith in the 2nd but wound up with him in the 3rd (from giants i believe). we also took willie reid with our original 3rd.

in retrospect was holmes worth it, or did we get the shorter end of the stick.

question is.... did we make a mistake, and if you could undo it today for a 1 on 1 today, would you?

im happy w/ holmes (despite the fact that hes a jaywalker and a sperm bank) and not yet ready to panic over a defense that was ranked #1 in yds allowed last season.

NJarhead
08-19-2008, 06:52 PM
would you do it? well we already did. we gave up our 1st (32nd overall) and 2nd to move up and take holmes. the giants took osi at 32 and wound up with sinorice moss in the 2nd.

word is we woulda taken anthony smith in the 2nd but wound up with him in the 3rd (from giants i believe). we also took willie reid with our original 3rd.

in retrospect was holmes worth it, or did we get the shorter end of the stick.

question is.... did we make a mistake, and if you could undo it today for a 1 on 1 today, would you?

im happy w/ holmes (despite the fact that hes a jaywalker and a sperm bank) and not yet ready to panic over a defense that was ranked #1 in yds allowed last season.

I think it worked out best for both teams (although Reid sucks). Osi is too small for a 3-4 lineman. LInebacker?? I dunno, but had he not been a Giant we might be hating the Cheatriots just that little bit more.

I'm with you on Santonio Holmes in that I am very happy with him.

stlrtruck
08-19-2008, 06:53 PM
I'm happy with Holmes because he has developed into that stud WR we need to compliment Hines Ward.

However, with that being said, Osi is starting to come into his own. It's just a question of would he have thrived in our system. Hindsight is always 20/20 so I'd take the trade we made, live with it, and be happy.

Mosca
08-19-2008, 07:04 PM
Both of them are too young to say, at least for now.

revefsreleets
08-19-2008, 07:33 PM
Yup, we made the right choice. We play the wrong defense for Osi, and we now play the RIGHT offense for Santo.

MACH1
08-19-2008, 07:35 PM
I'm happy with Holmes. Ward isn't getting any younger and wont be around forever.

43Hitman
08-19-2008, 07:40 PM
I think it is win/win for both teams. Osi fits well with the Giants and Holmes is really finding his niche here. I wouldn't change a thing. I do like watching Osi play though.

Edman
08-19-2008, 07:46 PM
Osi is great, but he's not a 3-4 DE. He's a perfect fit for the Giants' 4-3 Defensive scheme. Santonio will be great, and is a perfect fit for the Steelers' passing scheme. I say leave it be. If Osi came here, he'd be a linebacker, and we have plenty of those. Lebeau would either want him to slim down, or bulk up.

lilyoder6
08-19-2008, 07:55 PM
well when we drafted holmes we didn't have the age issue and the injury issue of the d-line.. and we rly needed a number 2 wr after burress left... and randle el..

millwalldavey
08-19-2008, 07:59 PM
I'll stick by the choice we made. I don't like the what ifs... we'll never know. They are both outsanding athletes.

tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 08:09 PM
i shoulda known the whole schema angle would get overanalyzed. before this thread gets beyond its intent....

imagine osi (or any DE drafted #32 that year) perfectly fit our scheme and would be the same type of impact player for our DL as he is for the giants.

and im not asking if you would trade holmes for a SB....

NJarhead
08-19-2008, 08:12 PM
i shoulda known the whole schema angle would get overanalyzed. before this thread gets beyond its intent....

imagine osi perfectly fit our scheme and would be the same type of impact player for our DL as he is for the giants.

and im not asking if you would trade holmes for a SB....


Then yes, I would. I love DEFENSE and that's why I love the Steelers. :tt02:

fansince'76
08-19-2008, 08:12 PM
....and im not asking if you would trade holmes for a SB....

Good, 'cause I wouldn't. I would trade him for John Kuhn, though.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

WWIIOwheelz
08-19-2008, 08:16 PM
I'm happy with Santonio. He has a great relationship with Ben that's on the verge of being something special, I think. We aren't hurting for defense, so the difference Osi would've made for the Steelers D would have been negligible, IMHO.

Blitzburgh_Fever
08-19-2008, 08:25 PM
i shoulda known the whole schema angle would get overanalyzed. before this thread gets beyond its intent....

imagine osi (or any DE drafted #32 that year) perfectly fit our scheme and would be the same type of impact player for our DL as he is for the giants.

and im not asking if you would trade holmes for a SB....

That makes it a bit more interesting :applaudit:

I love Santo, but I'd probably do it if there was some DE that just fit our scheme perfectly and a WR like Santo was still on the board. I was a tad skeptic when we got Santo, simply because we hadn't made the full transition to the kind of game we run now.

That said, if it was "would I trade the Santo we know and love for a perfect DE fit" I'd say no. I'm not as concerned with our line as most people are, and I think unbiasedly it's 50/50. Aaron Smith doesn't have a history of getting hurt, Hampton plays like a champ, and Kiesel usually plays much better than he seems to (sounds weird, but you know what I mean). Past that we don't have much depth, but it's not like the other 31 teams have 8 awesome DT/DE on their roster. :noidea:

In many ways, even a 4 man line doesn't have as much talent as we have. Plus, Santo and Ben just seem to get each other. :helmet:

I am confident in our D, if Clark gets hurt (unlikely) we have Deshea move back, McFadden take over #2, and Gay play nickel, something I'm very confident in. A. Smith could sub in for Polamalu, and our LB corp is as deep as any in the league. I don't think we're dying for any position on D (we could use an infusion of youth in the line, but it's not like we have no hope). :tt03:

edit: something I forgot is Santo's attitude about blocking and tutelage from Ward, plus reports indicate he's something off a mentor for younger guys already.

SteelersMongol
08-19-2008, 08:43 PM
Santonio is totally worth what we traded 4. But Willie Reid, I don't know. Not hearing anything good from you guys at all, so ...

xfl2001fan
08-19-2008, 08:46 PM
Osi would (at best) be a LB for you guys...and I'm not sure how well he fits in that role. He'd almost have to be a WOLB for you to be effective. Since LB isn't really an issue, getting Holmes is easily the best choice. Reid in the equation is irrelevant.

tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 08:51 PM
Osi would (at best) be a LB for you guys...and I'm not sure how well he fits in that role. He'd almost have to be a WOLB for you to be effective. Since LB isn't really an issue, getting Holmes is easily the best choice. Reid in the equation is irrelevant.
please see post #11.

reid and snorice moss were pretty much a wash in the whole deal. the plus was we still got anthony smith in the deal despite giving up a #2 (even though many steelerfans seem to hate him nowadays).

NJarhead
08-19-2008, 08:54 PM
please see post #11.

reid and snorice moss were pretty much a wash in the whole deal. the plus was we still got anthony smith in the deal despite giving up a #2 (even though many steelerfans seem to hate him nowadays).

Three words: Defense wins championships.

Black@Gold Forever32
08-19-2008, 09:05 PM
I wanted Holmes bad so I would say no......When most fans were screaming for Lendale White....I wanted Holmes....He has lived up the expectations so far and is only getting better....

I also liked the pick of Anthony Smith and I don't hate him at all...He just needs to control his aggression and he will be fine....

RJC
08-19-2008, 09:08 PM
Uh, um, hate to burst your bubble here folks with the 2 pages dedicated to the hypothetical trade of Osi Umenyiora for Santonio Holmes, but there's a problem, and it ain't a small one. You see, while you were all debating trivial nonsense, no one bothered to realize that OU was drafted in 2003, and that it was in fact Mathias Kiwanuka who the Giants took with the #32 pick that we traded for the right to move up for Holmes in the 2006 NFL draft. If you feel you must, by all means, carry on. Far be it from me to use facts as obstacles....:thumbsup:

P.S. Holmes for Kiwanuka and Moss was an absolute steal in the Steelers favor...:applaudit:

xfl2001fan
08-19-2008, 09:09 PM
please see post #11.

reid and snorice moss were pretty much a wash in the whole deal. the plus was we still got anthony smith in the deal despite giving up a #2 (even though many steelerfans seem to hate him nowadays).

The thing is, you mention specific players, not position strength.

In regards to your question/post, I'll counter with this.

There was nobody at that pick that fit your needs nearly as well as Holmes did. There was no impact DE available that would have worked out for you guys. So the trade was easily worth it.

You can't just ask for real football minds to ignore scheme. A DE in the 3-4 doesn't so much make plays as make it possible for your LBs to make plays. So it's harder to find an impact player at the DE.

*******************ADDITION*******************

Plus, what that guy up there said

kmsteelerwr15
08-19-2008, 09:10 PM
Uh, um, hate to burst your bubble here folks with the 2 pages dedicated to the hypothetical trade of Osi Umenyiora for Santonio Holmes, but there's a problem, and it ain't a small one. You see, while you were all debating trivial nonsense, no one bothered to realize that OU was drafted in 2003, and that it was in fact Mathias Kiwanuka who the Giants took with the #32 pick that we traded for the right to move up for Holmes in the 2006 NFL draft. If you feel you must, by all means, carry on. Far be it from me to use facts as obstacles....:thumbsup:

P.S. Holmes for Kiwanuka and Moss was an absolute steal in the Steelers favor...:applaudit:

damn you beat me to it

tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 09:17 PM
Uh, um, hate to burst your bubble here folks with the 2 pages dedicated to the hypothetical trade of Osi Umenyiora for Santonio Holmes, but there's a problem, and it ain't a small one. You see, while you were all debating trivial nonsense, no one bothered to realize that OU was drafted in 2003, and that it was in fact Mathias Kiwanuka who the Giants took with the #32 pick that we traded for the right to move up for Holmes in the 2006 NFL draft. If you feel you must, by all means, carry on. Far be it from me to use facts as obstacles....:thumbsup:

P.S. Holmes for Kiwanuka and Moss was an absolute steal in the Steelers favor...:applaudit::doh:

damn! great catch. and i just heard an interview with mathias last week talking about the trade. :dang: im glad i covered my ass and swiched the OP to any DE who would have a similar impact as osi.

indeed though... carry on. still a worthy discussion.

tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 09:29 PM
You can't just ask for real football minds to ignore scheme. A DE in the 3-4 doesn't so much make plays as make it possible for your LBs to make plays. sure i can. anytime anyone posts "we shoulda drafted OL or DE" my question becomes relevant.

So it's harder to find an impact player at the DE.

i think you just helped get to the crux of the matter. instead of reaching and drafting for need, we have been drafting the BPA and not wasting picks on hopes and dreams.

for what its worth, (as much as we needed OL help in the past draft) branden albert cant get on the field, and marinelli has yanked gosder cherilus for poor performance in games.

CantStop85
08-19-2008, 09:33 PM
:doh:

damn! great catch. and i just heard an interview with mathias last week talking about the trade. :dang: im glad i covered my ass and swiched the OP to any DE who would have a similar impact as osi.

indeed though... carry on. still a worthy discussion.

Santonio Holmes would seem like a no-brainer, even now. An upgrade at DE would be a nice luxury for the Steelers, but Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel, though not getting any younger, are certainly no slouches. Plus, the surrounding cast would more than make up for any perceived weakness at that position. It's a position that can afford at least some time for some younger players to develop.

But, the Steelers would probably be in trouble without a guy like Santonio Holmes at receiver. If you take him out of the equation, you have an aging Hines Ward and who? starting at receiver? Nate Washington? With Sweed, Baker, and Reid filling out the depth chart? Limas Sweed has a lot of potential but isn't ready to immediately jump into the starting lineup and produce on the level that Santonio is. The combination of Santonio's emergence and Ben's career year was not coincidental.

Preacher
08-19-2008, 09:46 PM
I think the deeper question is... what would have had the bigger impact now and in the future... a very good DE or a very good WR.

I think the bigger hole would have been WR. So no, I keep what we got.

tony hipchest
08-19-2008, 10:33 PM
Santonio Holmes would seem like a no-brainer, even now. An upgrade at DE would be a nice luxury for the Steelers, but Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel, though not getting any younger, are certainly no slouches. Plus, the surrounding cast would more than make up for any perceived weakness at that position. It's a position that can afford at least some time for some younger players to develop.

But, the Steelers would probably be in trouble without a guy like Santonio Holmes at receiver. If you take him out of the equation, you have an aging Hines Ward and who? starting at receiver? Nate Washington? With Sweed, Baker, and Reid filling out the depth chart? Limas Sweed has a lot of potential but isn't ready to immediately jump into the starting lineup and produce on the level that Santonio is. The combination of Santonio's emergence and Ben's career year was not coincidental.great input (regardless if anyone agrees or not).

thanks for the unbiassed point of view. :drink:

i hate drafting a wr in the 1st ( although i woulda liked sweed #1 this year, or dewayne jarrett with the 2nd last year ) :dang:

im glad i was wrong about holmes. the steelers have a great success rate when they take the #1 ranked player at their respective position overall in the draft.

this same question coulda been posed about polamalu vs. l. johnson. the steelers rarely try to rake their trading partners over the coals and their deals usually work out for BOTH teams.. i hope that comes into mind in the future when other trades are proposed.

and though i doubt it would happen, having holmes gives the steelers flexibility to cut or reduce h. wards $9 mil cap hit next year to address the OL or DL as opposed to drafting a player and hoping they pan out on the professional level.

plus, holmes and heaths contracts will be huge once its time for renegotiation (cheaper than a DE though).

Preacher
08-19-2008, 11:12 PM
great input (regardless if anyone agrees or not).

thanks for the unbiassed point of view. :drink:

i hate drafting a wr in the 1st ( although i woulda liked sweed #1 this year, or dewayne jarrett with the 2nd last year ) :dang:

im glad i was wrong about holmes. the steelers have a great success rate when they take the #1 ranked player at their respective position overall in the draft.

this same question coulda been posed about polamalu vs. l. johnson. the steelers rarely try to rake their trading partners over the coals and their deals usually work out for BOTH teams.. i hope that comes into mind in the future when other trades are proposed.

and though i doubt it would happen, having holmes gives the steelers flexibility to cut or reduce h. wards $9 mil cap hit next year to address the OL or DL as opposed to drafting a player and hoping they pan out on the professional level.

plus, holmes and heaths contracts will be huge once its time for renegotiation (cheaper than a DE though).

You know Tony, I didn't think about their contracts...

which means that we definitely need to build the lines through the draft, because we aren't going to really have enough money to build them any other way AND keep most of our core players.

Galax Steeler
08-20-2008, 03:28 AM
I wouldn't do it I like the Holmes selection.

DACEB
08-20-2008, 06:25 AM
I'll add a little more to the discussion.

We could have drafted Mangold C 1st, S. Moss WR 2nd and A. Smith DB 3rd.

Just saying...

SteelMember
08-20-2008, 08:00 AM
Interesting spin Tony.

Given the fact Holmes was the 1st WR off the board, I keep him. After the departure of Randle El, I think the FO saw an opportunity to fill his spot with an immediate replacement.

DACEB brought up the possibility of Mangold, and while he may have fit nicely, I still make the trade and get the skill position.

Now, if we don't do the trade for the 2rd pick, do we get a shot at Devin Hester. That woulda, coulda been something.:chuckle:

DACEB
08-20-2008, 08:09 AM
After the departure of Randle El, I think the FO saw an opportunity to fill his spot with an immediate replacement.

Absolutely, and quite a replacement! I think it's obvious that Santo has huge playmaking ability, and I think it's safe to say we're all thrilled to have him.

I'm actually excited to see him return punts, this Sat.. I know there's some trepidation about him getting nicked up, but I think Santo has trained increasingly hard this offseason. He's bulked up quite a bit this year, is more mature and has a much better feel for the pro game compared to his rookie year.

He's a keeper!!

Lord Stiller
08-20-2008, 08:24 AM
when i 1st read this thred i thought it was stupid but after thinking about it, it might be a good trade because we could switch to the 4-3


OLB - Harrison MLB - Farrior OLB - Timmons
DE - Umenyiora DT - Hampton DT-Smith DE - Woodley

i like it

Haiku_Dirtt
08-20-2008, 10:36 AM
im happy w/ holmes (despite the fact that hes a jaywalker and a sperm bank) and not yet ready to panic over a defense that was ranked #1 in yds allowed last season.

I like Holmes. He has instincts that can turn an eight yard route into the end of the Bengals playoff hopes on the final play of the season.

Magic. Keep him around.

lilyoder6
08-20-2008, 10:44 AM
i think it would of been nice to stay where we were to get holmes and then got someone else later on.. but oh well

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-20-2008, 11:47 AM
I'll add a little more to the discussion.

We could have drafted Mangold C 1st, S. Moss WR 2nd and A. Smith DB 3rd.

Just saying...

Yeah, considering that Moss and Jackson were more of workout wonders I think we made the right call.

As much as I would have loved Mangold, we then would have to be relying on Ward, Wilson, Washington for most of the WR depth the past couple seasons.

Holmes was the right pick and no way I trade him for a 4-3 DE to play in a 3-4 at this point.

Lord Stiller
08-20-2008, 12:19 PM
Holmes was the right pick and no way I trade him for a 4-3 DE to play in a 3-4 at this point.

read my post

when i 1st read this thred i thought it was stupid but after thinking about it, it might be a good trade because we could switch to the 4-3


OLB - Harrison MLB - Farrior OLB - Timmons
DE - Umenyiora DT - Hampton DT-Smith DE - Woodley

i like it

steelreserve
08-20-2008, 12:43 PM
We got a good player with our pick, they got a good player with their pick. Nobody f*cked up.

tony hipchest
08-20-2008, 12:50 PM
read my postyep. still stupid even after thinking about it. :laughing:

so you would trade possibly our best wr just to change for the sake of change? we are a 3-4 team and woodley is a linebacker. you dont see dallas, san diego, patriots switching to a 4-3 just because they have ware, merriman, and vrabel.

in a sense you are suggesting getting holmes, foote, and keisel off the field just to add osi, and change a whole scheme to incorporate woodley. :dang:

yeah, teams do that all the time. :rolleyes:

Lord Stiller
08-20-2008, 12:54 PM
yep. still stupid even after thinking about it. :laughing:

so you would trade possibly our best wr just to change for the sake of change? we are a 3-4 team and woodley is a linebacker. you dont see dallas, san diego, patriots switching to a 4-3 just because they have ware, merriman, and vrabel.

in a sense you are suggesting getting holmes, foote, and keisel off the field just to add osi, and change a whole scheme to incorporate woodley. :dang:

yeah, teams do that all the time. :rolleyes:

dude, i was just throwing the idea out because many think we will eventually change to the 4-3. I probably wouldnt do it. calm down

btw, getting Foote and Keisel off the field is not so bad

and Woodley can play DE in the 4-3

tony hipchest
08-20-2008, 01:03 PM
and Woodley can play DE in the 4-3so can vrabel, merriman, and ware...

read my post :chuckle:

i doubt we make the switch until tomlin fires lebeau.

SteelMember
08-20-2008, 01:07 PM
dude, i was just throwing the idea out because many think we will eventually change to the 4-3. I probably wouldnt do it. calm down

btw, getting Foote and Keisel off the field is not so bad

and Woodley can play DE in the 4-3

Keisel is a Bum*, sir. :rolleyes::chuckle:

Lord Stiller
08-20-2008, 01:17 PM
Keisel is a Bum*, sir. :rolleyes::chuckle:

Kiesel is so awesome. Nobody can run on us

Keisel >>>> Von Oelhoffen ever was :rolleyes:

steelreserve
08-20-2008, 01:20 PM
btw, getting Foote and Keisel off the field is not so bad


That is definitely true. I consider them both OK for the time being, but we could definitely do better at both positions. Hopefully we've already got the replacement for one of them. But if we don't draft a defensive lineman soon, or get a younger guy there some other way, I'm going to start breaking bottles or something.

SteelMember
08-20-2008, 01:27 PM
Kiesel is so awesome. Nobody can run on us

Keisel >>>> Von Oelhoffen ever was :rolleyes:

Oh my bad. Foote is a Bum*

jjpro11
08-20-2008, 03:33 PM
drafting a good wr is a major accomplishment. there have never been more busts at one position than at wr. they are both great players and will probably be playing against each other in pro bowls over the next decade.

BlastFurnace
08-20-2008, 03:50 PM
I wouldn't trade Santonio for Umenyiora. I'm very pleased with the pick of Holmes. Neither would have been a bad pick, but I will stay with the one we have.

LVSteelersfan
08-20-2008, 05:26 PM
Oh my bad. Foote is a Bum*

Now that I can agree with. Too slow of foot to cover those short pass routes. He hurt us as badly as anyone else last year in the playoff game as MJD went blowing by him.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
08-20-2008, 06:28 PM
i think we will find out this year that he was worth it.........at leas i hope so....

Stlrs4Life
08-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Looking at it that way, I guess, yeah. I'm excited for Holmes' future with us. Both still young though.

millwalldavey
08-20-2008, 10:08 PM
drafting a good wr is a major accomplishment. there have never been more busts at one position than at wr. they are both great players and will probably be playing against each other in pro bowls over the next decade.

True... but the Steelers are pretty good at finding them... Ward, Burress, Randle-El, Holmes... hopefully Sweed. Those five (even if 2 are gone) more than make up for clunkers like Johnson and Edwards.

ShutDown24
08-20-2008, 10:46 PM
Guys, am I missing something? Unless I misunderstand your scenario Tony... Sorry if in which case I do, but as I recall it; the Giants drafted Mathias Kiwanuka 32nd overall in the 06 draft after Holmes, not Umenyiora - correct?

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-20-2008, 11:49 PM
read my post

Yeah, I saw it, but really Woodley is a tweener that is more suited to play a 3-4 OLB.

A better option for the 4-3 D-line would be Osi, Hampton, Smith, Keisel@275lbs.

The problem we have is Keisel is better suited to play as his lighter weight in a 4-3 and Woodley is better to play OLB in a 3-4. I think if the plans were there to play a 4-3, then guys like Woodley and Davis should not have been drafted.

I dont think the 4-3 is in the cards right now and like I said before, the draft of Holmes was a good move and I'd rather continue to build our 3-4 D line thru the draft or take a run at Chris Canty in the offseason if the Cowboys dont extend his deal.

verks36
08-20-2008, 11:51 PM
when i 1st read this thred i thought it was stupid but after thinking about it, it might be a good trade because we could switch to the 4-3


OLB - Harrison MLB - Farrior OLB - Timmons
DE - Umenyiora DT - Hampton DT-Smith DE - Woodley

i like it

it looks good on paper but i think smith would get eatin up in the middle

he is not big enough to play defensive tackle

El-Gonzo Jackson
08-21-2008, 12:20 AM
it looks good on paper but i think smith would get eatin up in the middle

he is not big enough to play defensive tackle

Smith is 6'5" 298lbs, which is plenty big enough to play DT, but he may almost be too tall, while Hampton might not be athletic enough. Prototypical guys to play that 3 technique are like Sedrick Ellis, Glenn Dorsey, Trevor Laws.....all around 6'1" 305lbs and quick for big men.