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View Full Version : Dem women for McCain/Palin?


Preacher
09-04-2008, 07:08 PM
Well, I found a link to this on Clinton's website.

Notice two things.

1. this is anecdotal.

2. The dates when people signed up... which means they are legitimate... not trolls.


Just found it interesting...

Mosca
09-04-2008, 07:39 PM
Preach, it's a big country, and I'm sure that there are all types out there. But I have not spoken to a single Dem woman, and I know a lot of them, who wasn't at least a little bit insulted by the choice.

The ticket will stand on its own, but the choice of Palin didn't attract any significant number of Dem women, and it very likely pushed away far more centrist women who are appalled by her further-right-than-Bush stance on the issues.

Preacher
09-04-2008, 08:13 PM
[quote=Mosca;431009]Preach, it's a big country, and I'm sure that there are all types out there. But I have not spoken to a single Dem woman, and I know a lot of them, who wasn't at least a little bit insulted by the choice.

Well, there seems to be a number of them that aren't on this site.

tony hipchest
09-04-2008, 08:16 PM
[quote=Mosca;431009]Preach, it's a big country, and I'm sure that there are all types out there. But I have not spoken to a single Dem woman, and I know a lot of them, who wasn't at least a little bit insulted by the choice.

Well, there seems to be a number of them that aren't on this site.are you talking about millions of women on this site, preach?

cause thats what its gonna take.

Preacher
09-04-2008, 08:17 PM
[quote=Preacher;431027]are you talking about millions of women on this site, preach?

cause thats what its gonna take.

I am just pointing out a site... that is all.

Mosca
09-04-2008, 08:50 PM
[quote=tony hipchest;431029]

I am just pointing out a site... that is all.


I agree, the ticket will stand for itself. But it won't sway anyone from the middle; it just became MORE conservative.

X-Terminator
09-04-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm sure there will be some Democrat women who may cross over and vote for McCain because of Palin being on the ticket, but not many. However, it should be noted that the fact that there ARE 2 women who have/had a legit shot at getting in the White House should be seen as progress, regardless of their political leanings.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 09:25 PM
Preach, it's a big country, and I'm sure that there are all types out there. But I have not spoken to a single Dem woman, and I know a lot of them, who wasn't at least a little bit insulted by the choice.

The ticket will stand on its own, but the choice of Palin didn't attract any significant number of Dem women, and it very likely pushed away far more centrist women who are appalled by her further-right-than-Bush stance on the issues.

Listen to some talk radio then. I heard 2 lib women in 15 minute drive home from golf course saying Palin inspired them, was dynamic and one of them stated she hoped she would be president some day. It all depends on who you talk to. Bottom line is she will gain more lib woman than lose conservative women. What is there to be insulted by? Honesty, or a woman who raises a family with positive values instead of the lack of discipline or integrity and accountability. Quite reading the editorials in the San Francisco Chronicle and other lib BS and you will hear the true America speak.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 09:26 PM
I'm sure there will be some Democrat women who may cross over and vote for McCain because of Palin being on the ticket, but not many. However, it should be noted that the fact that there ARE 2 women who have/had a legit shot at getting in the White House should be seen as progress, regardless of their political leanings.

Its only progress from the feminatzies if it is Hillary.

Mosca
09-04-2008, 09:40 PM
Listen to some talk radio then. I heard 2 lib women in 15 minute drive home from golf course saying Palin inspired them, was dynamic and one of them stated she hoped she would be president some day. It all depends on who you talk to. Bottom line is she will gain more lib woman than lose conservative women. What is there to be insulted by? Honesty, or a woman who raises a family with positive values instead of the lack of discipline or integrity and accountability. Quite reading the editorials in the San Francisco Chronicle and other lib BS and you will hear the true America speak.

1) Don't tell me what to do. And don't talk down to me.

2) I live in the real America, and I hold no counsel but my own. When I make up my mind, it is based on what I see around me, not what I am told to believe by someone else.

In other words, add something or STFU. Or, just go listen to some more talk radio, and get told what to think.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 09:55 PM
1) Don't tell me what to do. And don't talk down to me.

2) I live in the real America, and I hold no counsel but my own. When I make up my mind, it is based on what I see around me, not what I am told to believe by someone else.

In other words, add something or STFU. Or, just go listen to some more talk radio, and get told what to think.

Too funny, I didn't know you were so thin skinned. Get out much spiderman. Atleast talk radio has a wide variety of opinions, unlike your ignorant liberal friends.

Mosca
09-04-2008, 09:58 PM
That's personal insult #2. I'm not thin skinned, I'm just not used to personal insults. especially from someone who thinks that talk radio is a good place to get a wide variety of opinions. Talk radio is for the unemployed, unemployable, and shut-ins. Which are you?

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:01 PM
That's personal insult #2. I'm not thin skinned, I'm just not used to personal insults. especially from someone who thinks that talk radio is a good place to get a wide variety of opinions. Talk radio is for the unemployed, unemployable, and shut-ins. Which are you?

I'm a guy who likes to get information from sources other than the liberal media while driving home from the golf course. Sounds to me like you are a hypocrite. Throwing insults such as above quote , when in fact I just said you were thin skinned. Now the proof is in the pudding. (about thin skin)

tony hipchest
09-04-2008, 10:03 PM
That's personal insult #2. I'm not thin skinned, I'm just not used to personal insults. especially from someone who thinks that talk radio is a good place to get a wide variety of opinions. Talk radio is for the unemployed, unemployable, and shut-ins. Which are you?yeah, cubagooding'stogie, often posts something ignorant, gets slapped in the cyberface with it and owned and then needs to hurl an unwitty remark like "spiderman" to become a hero himself.

aint that right, Radio? :toofunny:

tony hipchest
09-04-2008, 10:05 PM
I'm a guy who likes to get information from sources other than the liberal media while driving home from the golf course. Sounds to me like you are a hypocrite. Throwing insults such as above quote , when in fact I just said you were thin skinned. Now the proof is in the pudding. (about thin skin)shaggin balls outta the drink again, huh? what you get for em? a quarter apiece?

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:09 PM
shaggin balls outta the drink again, huh? what you get for em? a quarter apiece?

we don't even let libs like you caddy at my country club. Scratch golfers don't shag out of drinks.

MACH1
09-04-2008, 10:13 PM
we don't even let libs like you caddy at my country club. Scratch golfers don't shag out of drinks.

So what do you make being a caddy or are you on the greens crew?

Mosca
09-04-2008, 10:14 PM
Naw, never mind.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:15 PM
yeah, cubagooding'stogie, often posts something ignorant, gets slapped in the cyberface with it and owned and then needs to hurl an unwitty remark like "spiderman" to become a hero himself.

aint that right, Radio? :toofunny:

Not one of your so called slaps has landed. you miss the point and use semantics on all replies. It is not even worth getting carpal tunnel over. You can try and belittle me all you want. It doesn't matter to me. I can't despise the liberal point of view anymore than I do. And your sarcasm just proves you have no leg to stand on.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:16 PM
So what do you make being a caddy or are you on the greens crew?

You want a job or something? I don't know what they make, when I am tipping I know they make pretty good coin though.

Mosca
09-04-2008, 10:18 PM
San Francisco Chronicle reference... cubanstogie... I wonder if this is you?

2005-11-08 Vivian cubanstogie 7.5 7.5 great amp experience

http://www.myredbook.com/showpro.aspx?id=642

MACH1
09-04-2008, 10:19 PM
You want a job or something?

Nah...I'd have to kill myself listening to people and their learned opinions. Besides I own my own business.

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:19 PM
yeah, cubagooding'stogie, often posts something ignorant, gets slapped in the cyberface with it and owned and then needs to hurl an unwitty remark like "spiderman" to become a hero himself.

aint that right, Radio? :toofunny:

"Show me the money" I do love Cuba Gooding. How did you know that.
One of the best movies ever. Jerry Mcguire.

tony hipchest
09-04-2008, 10:20 PM
we don't even let libs like you caddy at my country club. Scratch golfers don't shag out of drinks.yeah right, Radio. Cuba doesnt even have country clubs.

but heres you a Scoobie snack anyways, Shag... :cookie:

tony hipchest
09-04-2008, 10:21 PM
"Show me the money" I do love Cuba Gooding. How did you know that.
.im not as dumb as you look. :wink02:

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:23 PM
San Francisco Chronicle reference... cubanstogie... I wonder if this is you?

2005-11-08 Vivian cubanstogie 7.5 7.5 great amp experience

http://www.myredbook.com/showpro.aspx?id=642

That was some interesting stuff I must say. Can't claim it though. sorry.

MACH1
09-04-2008, 10:23 PM
San Francisco Chronicle reference... cubanstogie... I wonder if this is you?

2005-11-08 Vivian cubanstogie 7.5 7.5 great amp experience

http://www.myredbook.com/showpro.aspx?id=642

Gee I wonder how many cubanstogie's there are in cali. :rofl:

cubanstogie
09-04-2008, 10:30 PM
Gee I wonder how many cubanstogie's there are in cali. :rofl:

Probably a few. Obviously haven't been to a cigar convention, cubans are the best.

I guess that explains who got my AOL username. I had to use "libhater" @AOL.com instead

Preacher
09-05-2008, 12:26 AM
San Francisco Chronicle reference... cubanstogie... I wonder if this is you?

2005-11-08 Vivian cubanstogie 7.5 7.5 great amp experience

http://www.myredbook.com/showpro.aspx?id=642

Hey Mosca...

I gotta ask, just what were you looking for when you found this?? :bouncy::huh:

stlrtruck
09-05-2008, 05:54 AM
Besides I own my own business.

Can you give me a job then :thumbsup:

Mosca
09-05-2008, 07:20 AM
Hey Mosca...

I gotta ask, just what were you looking for when you found this?? :bouncy::huh:


I can understand not agreeing with someone, but I don't understand hating someone because he doesn't think the same things I do. I was trying to find out more about someone with that mindset, and I believe that I did. But I don't know what an "AMP" is.

xfl2001fan
09-05-2008, 07:28 AM
1) Don't tell me what to do. And don't talk down to me.

2) I live in the real America, and I hold no counsel but my own. When I make up my mind, it is based on what I see around me, not what I am told to believe by someone else.

In other words, add something or STFU. Or, just go listen to some more talk radio, and get told what to think.

For a guy who doesn't want to be talked down to and told what to do, you sure posted a seriously hypocritical statement.

Particulary the last line with "add something or STFU". That's telling someone to do something and talking down to them all at once.

The follow up line doesn't come across quite as strong, but it's still walking the same line that you don't want him to walk with you.

I too live in the real America. The real America is one filled with a very diverse group of individuals each with their own opinion, upbringing, race, nationality, religion, and financial background. That's the real America.

As for statement #2. What you "see around you" is a very narrow viewpoint. Only by listening on other opinions (inside and outside your party) do you have a shot at seeing the whole picture. What you see around you is based on a small locally controlled viewpoint, either the news media in your area, what's on TV/Radio and your personal experiences. That's insignificant in the global arena, which is really what half of the President's job concerns.

Just because it's on TV (or the Radio) or the internet doesn't mean it's true (unless discussed by John Kuhn). Yeah, had to throw that in.

Mosca, you're a good guy. I got no issues with you or your viewpoints and I'm not saying that you weren't wronged with his comments. That's between you and everyone else that is on this site. But your whole statement is counterproductive to the message you would like to give.

Mosca
09-05-2008, 07:44 AM
For a guy who doesn't want to be talked down to and told what to do, you sure posted a seriously hypocritical statement.

Particulary the last line with "add something or STFU". That's telling someone to do something and talking down to them all at once.

The follow up line doesn't come across quite as strong, but it's still walking the same line that you don't want him to walk with you.

I too live in the real America. The real America is one filled with a very diverse group of individuals each with their own opinion, upbringing, race, nationality, religion, and financial background. That's the real America.

As for statement #2. What you "see around you" is a very narrow viewpoint. Only by listening on other opinions (inside and outside your party) do you have a shot at seeing the whole picture. What you see around you is based on a small locally controlled viewpoint, either the news media in your area, what's on TV/Radio and your personal experiences. That's insignificant in the global arena, which is really what half of the President's job concerns.

Just because it's on TV (or the Radio) or the internet doesn't mean it's true (unless discussed by John Kuhn). Yeah, had to throw that in.

Mosca, you're a good guy. I got no issues with you or your viewpoints and I'm not saying that you weren't wronged with his comments. That's between you and everyone else that is on this site. But your whole statement is counterproductive to the message you would like to give.

Yeah, I know. He got under my skin. But if I screw up, I leave it out there, I won't go back and edit it to make it look better. It's all ephemera anyways. I don't mind getting called on crap.

Michael Keller
09-05-2008, 07:49 AM
The beauty of this election is that the country has a clear & very distinct choice. It would have been interesting if McGovern ran against Goldwater. This contest is just as interesting. The results of this election may lay the foundation for our country for many years to come. . Very interesting!!

xfl2001fan
09-05-2008, 10:14 AM
The beauty of this election is that the country has a clear & very distinct choice. It would have been interesting if McGovern ran against Goldwater. This contest is just as interesting. The results of this election may lay the foundation for our country for many years to come. . Very interesting!!

Only for four years. The voice of the people can very easily be swayed by incompetence in the White House, an act that both parties are more than capable of pulling off.

Yeah, I know. He got under my skin. But if I screw up, I leave it out there, I won't go back and edit it to make it look better. It's all ephemera anyways. I don't mind getting called on crap.

I hadn't noticed! :flap: You're still a good guy in my book, for some reason, your response just rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed anti-Mosca.

MACH1
09-05-2008, 10:31 AM
Can you give me a job then :thumbsup:

Sure...You now how to paint a car? One catch, there's no beni's and it only pays whats left over after i'm done with it. Which isn't much. :sofunny:

Oh yeah its custom painting too.

cubanstogie
09-05-2008, 10:43 AM
I can understand not agreeing with someone, but I don't understand hating someone because he doesn't think the same things I do. I was trying to find out more about someone with that mindset, and I believe that I did. But I don't know what an "AMP" is.

I don't recall saying I hated you because you had different beliefs. You stated you hadn't heard any dem woman who weren't insulted by Palins speech. I stated I heard 2 on talk radio and then you started with insults. Next thing you start googling and searching for "cubanstogie" . What kind of mindset is that?Scary IMO. I will tell you my mindset I am middle class, with house, daughter and stable job with benefits. I am tired of people who want socialism, are for welfare, illegals, care more about stopping pledge of allegiance in school than stopping terrorists. I could go on. I just read an article about people asking for assistance due to being upside down in house during this housing crunch. They think the government should bail them out. I ask you who is going to bail me out if my mutual funds or real estate investments don't yield the returns I want. That is my mindset. Very tired of whining. I want Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and terrorists held accountable. As well as every other citizen who commits crimes.

Dino 6 Rings
09-05-2008, 11:04 AM
I've noticed a few things about the Palin pick that are interesting.

First, the women saying they are insulted by the pick are usually, hard core liberal women to begin with, who in turn see the pick as an attempt to get them to switch their votes. I don't think that was the goal of the pick, I think, they hoped for some cast off votes from Hillary supporters, but believe this pick was more about solidifying their own republican base and attempting to gather some indpendent votes from single women who couldn't care less about politics because they are too busy, raising their kids and working.

Next, I noticed that the viciousness of the attacks on Palin have been simply, over the top. Whether it be from the Daily Kos, Huffington Post, Wall Street Journal or Move On Org left wingers, its been like nothing I've seen. The attacks are even more insane than the "Obama is a muslim" attacks that some on the right did in fact use much earlier in the election cycle, and as well, the Hillary voters did in fact attack Obama personally a couple times.

I've also noticed, that people around me, are at least talking about the election again. They no longer believe it is Obama that is going to win, and are kind of excited about the option to pick a Woman as the VP. Some of the women I work with, are real Democrats, and would vote for anyone on the ticket, but more and more, they are starting to at least talk not so negatively about McCain because of his bold choice in a VP Candidate. Those same women would be calling McCain names if he took Romney but now, they seem to have "warmed up" to the idea of McCain.

Dino 6 Rings
09-05-2008, 11:05 AM
Another thing I noticed, that gets lost, is the fact that the Democrats are attacking and demonizing Bush, during this election. Bush isn't on the ticket. I believe, politically, it is a mistake. They must defeat McCain. They aren't going to do that by screaming Bush Bush Bush, Cheney, Bush. Both of those guys are out of office regardless of what happens come January. But that's my humble political warfare opinion.

El-Gonzo Jackson
09-05-2008, 11:15 AM
Talk radio is for the unemployed, unemployable, and shut-ins.

Or Salesreps. I listen to talk radio all the time, but its because I'm in my car driving to the next call.

Interesting thread. I dont even hold the right to vote in the US, so wont pile on. I just see Hockey mom, hunter with knocked up kid and 72 year old guy that is hanging on to his political career too long on the ticket.

My dad is 72 and he gives me his watch 2 times a year to adjust it for daylight savings time and his VCR is still blinking 12:00. Ah heck, you trusted a hillbilly peanut farmer, an actor with alzheimers and a guy that couldn't pronounce nuclear (they say nuke-u-lear in Texas I guess) with the key to the nuclear missiles......why not McCain. :noidea: at least he's been in the military.

Interesting debate fellas.

cubanstogie
09-05-2008, 11:16 AM
I've noticed a few things about the Palin pick that are interesting.

First, the women saying they are insulted by the pick are usually, hard core liberal women to begin with, who in turn see the pick as an attempt to get them to switch their votes. I don't think that was the goal of the pick, I think, they hoped for some cast off votes from Hillary supporters, but believe this pick was more about solidifying their own republican base and attempting to gather some indpendent votes from single women who couldn't care less about politics because they are too busy, raising their kids and working.

Next, I noticed that the viciousness of the attacks on Palin have been simply, over the top. Whether it be from the Daily Kos, Huffington Post, Wall Street Journal or Move On Org left wingers, its been like nothing I've seen. The attacks are even more insane than the "Obama is a muslim" attacks that some on the right did in fact use much earlier in the election cycle, and as well, the Hillary voters did in fact attack Obama personally a couple times.

I've also noticed, that people around me, are at least talking about the election again. They no longer believe it is Obama that is going to win, and are kind of excited about the option to pick a Woman as the VP. Some of the women I work with, are real Democrats, and would vote for anyone on the ticket, but more and more, they are starting to at least talk not so negatively about McCain because of his bold choice in a VP Candidate. Those same women would be calling McCain names if he took Romney but now, they seem to have "warmed up" to the idea of McCain.

good post IMO, my question is why are the dem woman insulted. If he would have picked a male you would have feminists crying out about lack of diversity in republican party. You just can't please them. So instead McCain chose Palin and in doing so hopefully swayed enough moderates to win the election.

Dino 6 Rings
09-05-2008, 11:25 AM
good post IMO, my question is why are the dem woman insulted. If he would have picked a male you would have feminists crying out about lack of diversity in republican party. You just can't please them. So instead McCain chose Palin and in doing so hopefully swayed enough moderates to win the election.

Honestly, I believe the hard core left liberal women are so upset with the Sarah Palin pick over one single issue. Choice or Life. That's it. They are so worried about that one issue that everything else is mute in regards to the qualifications, intentions or reform mindedness of Sarah Palin. They are so threatened by the idea of, real or imagined, of the overturning of Roe V Wade that they are attacking her. That is also something I noticed, for a group of people to vote on one single issue only, regardless of the other policies, character of the people running, history, experience or other qualifications, is kind of crazy. One issue should not be what drives your vote, but for the Pro-Choice liberal left wing women, that is their one and only concern. At least that is what it seems like.

For the Record. Pro-Choice here, with a strong desire to cut back on the partial birth garbage that is condoned in this country. I believe that a middle ground must be found for all of us in American, 4 months, 5 months max, something like that. I don't know when life begins, I don't know if my atoms are staying in place because of God or Evolution, but I also know, as a man, I can't dictate what a woman can do with her body, but as a Human, I know that a 6 month old fetus can survive outside the womb with medical help. So I believe we need a strong push for a middle ground result, that we can for the most part all be ok with or at least rationalize without feeling like killers or opressors of women.

Mosca
09-05-2008, 11:27 AM
I pissed off enough folks in this thread, I'm letting it alone for now. Sorry I let it get to me, cubanstogie.

cubanstogie
09-05-2008, 11:32 AM
I pissed off enough folks in this thread, I'm letting it alone for now. Sorry I let it get to me, cubanstogie.

no worries, sorry I got under your skin. My late father and older sister are liberal, I should have learned not to talk politics. I think the horse has been beaten anyway.

Dino 6 Rings
09-05-2008, 11:35 AM
ever actually try to beat a dead horse...its isn't that much fun

from what I've heard anyway LOL

xfl2001fan
09-05-2008, 12:14 PM
For the Record. Pro-Choice here, with a strong desire to cut back on the partial birth garbage that is condoned in this country. I believe that a middle ground must be found for all of us in American, 4 months, 5 months max, something like that. I don't know when life begins, I don't know if my atoms are staying in place because of God or Evolution, but I also know, as a man, I can't dictate what a woman can do with her body, but as a Human, I know that a 6 month old fetus can survive outside the womb with medical help. So I believe we need a strong push for a middle ground result, that we can for the most part all be ok with or at least rationalize without feeling like killers or opressors of women.

I believe that stopping a beating heart is to kill someone. Sometimes, (like when someone who was once actually a functioning person) you decide to pull the plug on a "brain dead" individual...and that's fine.

The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception, or about five weeks after the last menstrual period, which by convention we call the fifth week of pregnancy.
http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,9851,00.html

For most women, it's the 6th week after their last period that they get checked (at least that's the way it worked with my wife and I...and we have 5 children.)

It seems like many people want to grey out an area to ease their conscience when taking the life of a child. (Guess it's pretty obvious which side I'm on.) IMO, it's very black and white. You stopped a beating heart. You killed the fetus.

For all that it's "the woman's body" it's also the childs body dying. Of course, the child has no voice in the matter. Who care's about the little person? The difference is, the child truly is an innocent, whereas (murder aside) the woman/girl is not.

Preacher
09-05-2008, 04:40 PM
I can understand not agreeing with someone, but I don't understand hating someone because he doesn't think the same things I do. I was trying to find out more about someone with that mindset, and I believe that I did. But I don't know what an "AMP" is.

Hey mosca...

I am not sure of your answer to my question.

I was being a smart alec asking exactly what you were looking at when you came across that?!

Thats all...

Mosca
09-05-2008, 05:10 PM
Hey mosca...

I am not sure of your answer to my question.

I was being a smart alec asking exactly what you were looking at when you came across that?!

Thats all...

It's OK Preach. I'm back on the meds now. :thumbsup:

Preacher
09-05-2008, 06:24 PM
It's OK Preach. I'm back on the meds now. :thumbsup:

:rofl:

I think many of us are back on our meds now after the last few days... wow.

Gotta admit one thing about he Palin nomination... it sure infused this board with a lot of activity! :chuckle:

stillers4me
09-05-2008, 06:27 PM
I believe that stopping a beating heart is to kill someone. Sometimes, (like when someone who was once actually a functioning person) you decide to pull the plug on a "brain dead" individual...and that's fine.

The embryonic heart starts beating 22 days after conception, or about five weeks after the last menstrual period, which by convention we call the fifth week of pregnancy.
http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,9851,00.html

For most women, it's the 6th week after their last period that they get checked (at least that's the way it worked with my wife and I...and we have 5 children.)

It seems like many people want to grey out an area to ease their conscience when taking the life of a child. (Guess it's pretty obvious which side I'm on.) IMO, it's very black and white. You stopped a beating heart. You killed the fetus.

For all that it's "the woman's body" it's also the childs body dying. Of course, the child has no voice in the matter. Who care's about the little person? The difference is, the child truly is an innocent, whereas (murder aside) the woman/girl is not.

Well said, Browniefan! I couldn't agree with you more. :hatsoff:

stillers4me
09-05-2008, 06:30 PM
:rofl:

I think many of us are back on our meds now after the last few days... wow.

Gotta admit one thing about he Palin nomination... it sure infused this board with a lot of activity! :chuckle:

Imagine what is doing to the rest of the country!

How refreshing to have a choice that's not one of the Washingtom Beltway Boys (and that includes Hillary!) . Whether she's actually up for the job at hand or not, it's certainly made people think!

revefsreleets
09-06-2008, 10:30 AM
There are a lot of women who will vote for Palin simply because she's a woman. And people are also underestimating some of Hillary's hardcore supporters utter loathing of Obama.