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revefsreleets
09-26-2008, 08:12 AM
(Warning! This article contains pro-McCain messages)
http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/29784079.html

The real McCain: Tested to the point of wisdom
By By Kevin Ferris|


Published on Friday, Sep 26, 2008
PHILADELPHIA: Is John McCain too hot-headed to be president?
That's suggested in a political ad produced by the liberal group Brave New PAC. It features Philip Butler, a highly decorated Navy officer who had already been imprisoned 21/2 years before McCain was brought to Hanoi in October 1967.
In the ad, Butler says: ''I think I can say with authority that the prisoner-of-war experience is not a good prerequisite for president of the United States. . . . He was well known as a very volatile guy, and he would blow up and go off like a Roman candle. John McCain is not somebody that I would like to see with his finger near the red button.''
One quibble with the ad is that it suggests McCain was ''volatile'' while in Vietnam. But in the longer interview on the group's Web site, it sounds more as if Butler is talking about their time at the U.S. Naval Academy, when the two midshipmen lived across the hall from each other. That's probably two very different John McCains.
Nevertheless, at points along the campaign trail, even Republicans have talked about temperament. It's partly why Sen. Thad Cochran, R-Miss., initially endorsed Mitt Romney over McCain.
''The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine,'' Cochran told the Boston Globe in January. ''He is erratic. He is hot-headed. He loses his temper and he worries me.'' Cochran has since endorsed the McCain-Palin ticket.
McCain brought up his reputation in the book Worth the Fighting For: ''I have regretted losing my temper on many occasions. But there are things worth getting angry about in politics. . . . When public servants lose their capacity for outrage over practices injurious to the national interest, they have outlived their usefulness to the country.''
There's something to be said for a bit of temper. I wish someone in the administration had been fired up enough to generate a sense of urgency among war planners while the situation in Iraq was deteriorating in 2005-'06.
McCain for years had called for a new strategy and more troops. If only someone in the chain of command had pushed as hard, and gotten angry furious, even, given the costs when efforts fell short.
So, yes, a temper has its place, but it certainly can't be the defining characteristic of a presidential candidate. And it's not for McCain, as other former POWs will attest.
Retired Air Force Col. Tom Moe of Ohio recalls looking through a peephole in his cell door when McCain was returned from interrogation a time when volatile behavior would be understandable. Instead, McCain waited for the guard to momentarily look away. He would turn toward Moe's cell, smile, and give a thumbs up.
''I remember that image of him looking over when he couldn't stand up straight, when he was broken and battered,'' Moe said in an interview last week. ''What a tremendous image of his strength and courage.''
As for temper, POWs learned quickly to control themselves, Moe said.

''If you lost your temper in Hanoi, you could easily be beaten to death,'' Moe said. ''If ever there was a time to cool it, it was there.''
Leo Thorsness, a Medal of Honor recipient, wrote last week in the New York Times about other lessons learned in Hanoi: ''The years in a brutal prison were equivalent to earning a Ph.D. in psychology. We saw that peace without freedom is empty. We gained a deep appreciation for justice and courage. We learned that survival depends on teamwork. We were colorblind whites, blacks, Asians, we were all the same. We learned the value of always doing what is right regardless of consequence. . . .
''A president who has been tested in this way can be counted on to make wise decisions.''
I understand that temperament is a valid concern when looking at candidates. Has the person been tested? Overcome obstacles? Fought for beliefs? Put others first?

What I don't understand is why McCain's political opponents would highlight one of his greatest strengths.
Ferris is commentary page editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer. He can be e-mailed at kf@phillynews.com.

millwalldavey
09-26-2008, 04:17 PM
I stil don't possibly see how this is relevant to knowing the ins and outs of running the free world. Being a POW does not qualify one to run the most powerful country in the world.

Mind you, I do commend and appreciate his bravery.

revefsreleets
09-26-2008, 05:29 PM
This was addressing the assertion from the left that McCain has an uncontrollable temper.

Mosca
09-26-2008, 05:45 PM
Or, it could be interpreted that the only way it can be controlled is through the threat of death...

revefsreleets
09-26-2008, 05:46 PM
LOL...there's always "another view" for the haters I guess.

Preacher
09-26-2008, 05:49 PM
Funny how every experience of McCain has nothing to do with being president--

And Obama's non-experience has nothing to do with being president--

But we are supposed to make a decision against McCain based on Palin's limited experience as governor.


:noidea:

Mosca
09-26-2008, 06:17 PM
LOL...there's always "another view" for the haters I guess.


Naw, not hatin', just thought it would be a funny quip.

I respect the guy's ordeal. I think that the letter from the roommate is irrelevant to the man's temperament today, and the POW experience is irrelevant to his qualification to be president (other than whatever effect in might have on his health as he ages past 75, which can only be speculated on).

Preacher
09-26-2008, 06:30 PM
Naw, not hatin', just thought it would be a funny quip.

I respect the guy's ordeal. I think that the letter from the roommate is irrelevant to the man's temperament today, and the POW experience is irrelevant to his qualification to be president (other than whatever effect in might have on his health as he ages past 75, which can only be speculated on).

Amazing. Leadership and conviction are forged on anvils of trouble and hardship. Yet his POW experience is irrelevant? It is part of his story and will color every judgement he makes. The question is how will it color it. Personally, I think it is a good thing.

What was Obama's last hardship? What forged his convictions and leadership ability? I think those are legitimate questions that shouldn't be passed over... though they will be, because it is an area that Obama simply cannot touch.

steelwall
09-26-2008, 06:35 PM
Mcain suffered a great deal for this country, if you ask me he is a hero. Thank God I was never captured.

revefsreleets
09-26-2008, 07:13 PM
Obama suffered immensely during his hardscrabble existence on the Island of Hawaii, and lets not forget the trials and tribulations he faced as a community organizer. Then there was the stretch where he had to dodge death daily on the mean streets of Cambridge, Mass. when he was at Harvard.

(sarcasm smiley here)

steelwall
09-26-2008, 07:24 PM
Obama suffered immensely during his hardscrabble existence on the Island of Hawaii, and lets not forget the trials and tribulations he faced as a community organizer. Then there was the stretch where he had to dodge death daily on the mean streets of Cambridge, Mass. when he was at Harvard.

(sarcasm smiley here)

You're on a roll today my friend...keep me laughing...I need it.:drink:

Mosca
09-26-2008, 07:52 PM
Amazing. Leadership and conviction are forged on anvils of trouble and hardship. Yet his POW experience is irrelevant? It is part of his story and will color every judgement he makes. The question is how will it color it. Personally, I think it is a good thing.

What was Obama's last hardship? What forged his convictions and leadership ability? I think those are legitimate questions that shouldn't be passed over... though they will be, because it is an area that Obama simply cannot touch.

So, not being a POW makes you unqualified? Being a POW makes you qualified?

Sorry. It may be one part of what has shaped the man, but it has nothing to do with his actual qualifications. It has shaped who he is, but it is who he is that matters, not how he got there. Same with Obama. No comment on how I believed that who the man was when he was in his early 20s is also irrelevant, or does that picture paint him poorly so that you glossed it over? People change, they grow. I'm not going to hold a guy's feet to the fire because he stole a bike when he was 10 (figuratively speaking).

Preacher
09-26-2008, 10:44 PM
So, not being a POW makes you unqualified? Being a POW makes you qualified?

Sorry. It may be one part of what has shaped the man, but it has nothing to do with his actual qualifications. It has shaped who he is, but it is who he is that matters, not how he got there. Same with Obama. No comment on how I believed that who the man was when he was in his early 20s is also irrelevant, or does that picture paint him poorly so that you glossed it over? People change, they grow. I'm not going to hold a guy's feet to the fire because he stole a bike when he was 10 (figuratively speaking).
No-- McCains divorce also shaped him and in ordere to understand him and how he might act in the future, it is wise and smart to look at what lessaons he learned in the past and how they will be applied.

Trying to put words in myu mouth that Obama is unqualified because he wasn't a POW is sad. What is more sad is the fact that some in this forum don't care about what has shaped the character of the man they waqnt in office.

Mosca
09-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Show me where I put the words into your mouth. Read your own words, and tell me that they meant anything other than what they say. And tell me that it isn't sad that you write one thing, and then tell me that it doesn't mean what it says. THAT is what is sad.

I never said I didn't care what shaped him; I said that what matters more is what it shaped him into. I'm sure that being a POW shaped some men into alcoholics, drug users and criminals. The POW part would be irrelevant to those men's bid to become president; the alcoholism, drug addiction, and criminality would be relevant.

Preacher
09-26-2008, 11:13 PM
So, not being a POW makes you unqualified? Being a POW makes you qualified?

Hmmm... how did you get THAT from this Amazing. Leadership and conviction are forged on anvils of trouble and hardship. Yet his POW experience is irrelevant? It is part of his story and will color every judgement he makes. The question is how will it color it. Personally, I think it is a good thing.

What was Obama's last hardship? What forged his convictions and leadership ability? I think those are legitimate questions that shouldn't be passed over... though they will be, because it is an area that Obama simply cannot touch.

Show me where I put the words into your mouth. Read your own words, and tell me that they meant anything other than what they say

There's the evidence. What was MEANT... was that McCain's experience ways heavily on his actions as president. You put words into my mouth saying that I was saying Obama is NOT qualified because he is NOT a POW.

That my friend, is putting words in my mouth.

You're too good a debater for that.

Mosca
09-27-2008, 07:13 AM
Trying to put words in myu mouth that Obama is unqualified

Show me where I said that you said that.

Preacher
09-27-2008, 10:33 AM
Show me where I said that you said that.

i think my point here... was that by stating, "So, not being a POW makes you unqualified?" I felt you put words in my mouth that I was saying you must be a POW or a vet. to be qualified.

I am ONLY talking of McCain.

It is part of WHY I feel he will be a good leader.

The Patriot
09-27-2008, 10:56 AM
Trying to put words in myu mouth that Obama is unqualified because he wasn't a POW is sad. What is more sad is the fact that some in this forum don't care about what has shaped the character of the man they waqnt in office.

It's just as sad that people ignore Obama's colorful history. He met his father for the first time when he was ten years old. Unlike Bush and McCain, Obama didn't have a powerful family member to get him into politics. Obama got to where he is now by being good at what he does.

This isn't to say McCain is any less impressive but Obama's career is proof that the best work their way to the top.

MACH1
09-27-2008, 11:33 AM
It's just as sad that people ignore Obama's colorful history. He met his father for the first time when he was ten years old. Unlike Bush and McCain, Obama didn't have a powerful family member to get him into politics. Obama got to where he is now by being good at what he does.

This isn't to say McCain is any less impressive but Obama's career is proof that the best work their way to the top.

Community organizer (WTF is that) makes him qualified to run a bake sell at best, let alone run the country.

tony hipchest
09-27-2008, 12:18 PM
Hmmm... how did you get THAT from this



There's the evidence. What was MEANT... was that McCain's experience ways heavily on his actions as president. You put words into my mouth saying that I was saying Obama is NOT qualified because he is NOT a POW.

That my friend, is putting words in my mouth.

You're too good a debater for that.preacher.... you put words in mosca's mouth in the EXACT same manner you are accusing him of doing to you-

Amazing. Leadership and conviction are forged on anvils of trouble and hardship. Yet his POW experience is irrelevant? It is part of his story and will color every judgement he makes. The question is how will it color it. Personally, I think it is a good thing.


:hunch:

a big problem with debate on this board (and probably all others- i dont know, this is the only one ive ever been a member of) is that a question for clarification of a point is often dismissed, ignored, looked at as putting words in ones mouth, looked at as rhetorical, or looked art as a sarcastic statement.

as for the article, it is an interresting take. especially a POW being equivalent to earning a PHD in psychology.

i cant argue much in this harmless article other than being a POW is probably more equivalent to earning a masters in "self introspection".

The Patriot
09-27-2008, 01:38 PM
Community organizer (WTF is that) makes him qualified to run a bake sell at best, let alone run the country.

Community organizers are active social workers who help communities get involved in political and social affairs. Obama worked to help poverty-stricken areas in Chicago for several years before attending Harvard Law School.

Just because he didn't have a big title and office doesn't mean he wasn't important. He was actually helping people in need and he had to have been pretty damn goog at it to get this far in his political career.

Community Organizer may not have all the glamour of other political positions but that is where he got his start. Not through his father's connections.

He is more than qualified to run this country.

Mosca
09-27-2008, 02:46 PM
preacher.... you put words in mosca's mouth in the EXACT same manner you are accusing him of doing to you-



:hunch:

Thank you, Tony. I was hoping that delicate point was not lost on anyone.

MACH1
09-27-2008, 02:51 PM
He is more than qualified to run this country into the ground.

He'll make Jimmy Carter look like a god if elected.

cubanstogie
09-27-2008, 03:34 PM
He'll make Jimmy Carter look like a god if elected.

I'm sure the libs already consider peanut head a god. His brother Billy was more of a god, atleast he had a beer named after him.

Preacher
09-27-2008, 09:36 PM
preacher.... you put words in mosca's mouth in the EXACT same manner you are accusing him of doing to you-



:hunch:

.


There is a difference in assuming context... which means irrelevant in the context of running for president.. and shading what someone says so that it means more or less that what was meant....

I felt that he was shading what I said and thus, putting words in my mouth. Here, I simply assumed context... a wrong assumption.

revefsreleets
09-27-2008, 09:48 PM
Community organizers are active social workers who help communities get involved in political and social affairs. Obama worked to help poverty-stricken areas in Chicago for several years before attending Harvard Law School.

Just because he didn't have a big title and office doesn't mean he wasn't important. He was actually helping people in need and he had to have been pretty damn goog at it to get this far in his political career.

Community Organizer may not have all the glamour of other political positions but that is where he got his start. Not through his father's connections.

He is more than qualified to run this country.


There are, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of people who do this kind of work every day. Educated people. Smart people. But I would no more cast my vote for them then I will Obama.

The difference between me and you (and several others here) is that you are forced to defend your candidate because he IS what you have, while I'm just continuing to tout the values and attributes of the guy I've been supporting all along (Circa 2003?).

Seriously, "Community Organizer"? Really? REALLY? This is what your party gave you...I mean I know why guys are defending him, but let's keep it real. Community Organizer is the same type of thing my retired grandmother does on a voluntary basis. I'm not going to elect her for president. In fact, if this was a job interview for a Fortune 50 company, and I saw "community organizer", I'd call the candidate out for resume padding. Which is, by the by, is exactly what this is. Obama has no real employment history, so they have to put SOMETHING down.

Please, let's not go here again.

Preacher
09-27-2008, 09:58 PM
There are, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of people who do this kind of work every day. Educated people. Smart people. But I would no more cast my vote for them then I will Obama.

The difference between me and you (and several others here) is that you are forced to defend your candidate because he IS what you have, while I'm just continuing to tout the values and attributes of the guy I've been supporting all along.

Seriously, "Community Organizer"? Really? REALLY? This is what your party gave you...I mean I know why guys are defending him, but let's keep it real. Community Organizer is the same type of thing my retired grandmother does on a voluntary basis. I'm not going to elect her for president.

Obama being a community organizer is less than my experience of pastoring as prepatory for being a president. At least as a pastor, I have to deal with budgets, working with both sides of opinion to get things done, and have to... many times, make unpopular decisions and then lead both sides (or in a baptist church... 4 or 5 sides :chuckle:) to move with it.

I doubt ANYONE would say my experience as pastor is enough to be prepatory for being a president. I would say the same thing about being a "community organizer."

Why McCain's experience is relevant... outside of what i already posted, is because "commander and chief" is a CENTRAL role of the president, one he is well equipped for because of his WHOLE experience in the military. His POW experence makes his insights about whether to go to war or not that much deeper and personal.

revefsreleets
09-27-2008, 10:05 PM
Obama being a community organizer is less than my experience of pastoring as prepatory for being a president. At least as a pastor, I have to deal with budgets, working with both sides of opinion to get things done, and have to... many times, make unpopular decisions and then lead both sides (or in a baptist church... 4 or 5 sides :chuckle:) to move with it.

I doubt ANYONE would say my experience as pastor is enough to be prepatory for being a president. I would say the same thing about being a "community organizer."

Why McCain's experience is relevant... outside of what i already posted, is because "commander and chief" is a CENTRAL role of the president, one he is well equipped for because of his WHOLE experience in the military. His POW experence makes his insights about whether to go to war or not that much deeper and personal.

And his experience in the Senate (25 years). And the fact that he has a PROVEN record of breaking with his own party when it's for a cause that he thinks is bigger than politics. And his record of fighting PAC's and pork. And his record of breaking with Bush. And his record of backing the surge when it was almost political anathema. And...

Aw, eff it...it doesn't matter...I'm putting my faith in the American people that they can still figure simple riddles out.

Preacher
09-29-2008, 07:02 PM
It's just as sad that people ignore Obama's colorful history. He met his father for the first time when he was ten years old. Unlike Bush and McCain, Obama didn't have a powerful family member to get him into politics. Obama got to where he is now by being good at what he does.

This isn't to say McCain is any less impressive but Obama's career is proof that the best work their way to the top.

Um.. No. It wasn't his family, but his location.

He hooked in through the Chicago dem. political machine (you know, Daly) and was thrust into the limelight. The only thing Obama is good at is giving speeches. It was the Daly machine that got him into politics. He got to where he is now by being a member of the daly machine.

That machien is just as powerful, just as important, and just as high in name recognition as McCain. In essense, it is the last great Tammany Hall.