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cubanstogie
10-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Anyone have an opinion on how Hartwig played against Ravens. I wanted to go back and re-watch the game and key in on the offensive line but my wife erased the game on our TIVO. I was so busy chewing my nails, cursing and pacing that I didn't really watch anything besides Ben and where the ball was going. Obviously the second half there were no sacks so that is promising, but doesn't tell the whole story.

cubanstogie
10-01-2008, 08:46 PM
coincidentally I just turned on NFL network and found the game on. It is the start of the 3rd quarter now.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-02-2008, 01:00 PM
I have only rewatched the 1st quarter on my PVR and so far Hartwig has looked solid.

Again, he is no 2nd coming of Dermonti Dawson IMO, but more of a bigger and less athletic version of Hartings.

steelreserve
10-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Ben didn't get the shit beat out of him quite so badly last game, so that's a definite improvement for the line.

Still, at least for the first 2-3 quarters, we only improved from a F to an F-plus.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-02-2008, 01:11 PM
Ben didn't get the shit beat out of him quite so badly last game, so that's a definite improvement for the line.

Still, at least for the first 2-3 quarters, we only improved from a F to an F-plus.

Yeah, according to some sack breakdown analysis......the O-line was responsible for 4 of the 9 sacks vs the Eagles, but only 1 of the 3 vs the Ravens. So a definate improvement.

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=27693

Preacher
10-02-2008, 04:18 PM
I wonder how much of that was going to the no-huddle...

how much of that was Arians cutting down the play book and just letting the guys play...

and how much of that was Ben threatening to put a foot up their rear-ends...


probably all of the above.

lilyoder6
10-02-2008, 04:22 PM
it seems that the no-huddle did work and hopefully we will use it more in the future..

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-02-2008, 04:34 PM
I wonder how much of that was going to the no-huddle...

how much of that was Arians cutting down the play book and just letting the guys play...

and how much of that was Ben threatening to put a foot up their rear-ends...


probably all of the above.

You are probably correct. All of the credit for a win should goto Ben and Arians. Only the blame for loss should be put on the guys in the trenches :wink02:

Preacher
10-02-2008, 05:08 PM
You are probably correct. All of the credit for a win should goto Ben and Arians. Only the blame for loss should be put on the guys in the trenches :wink02:

:chuckle:

Naaa... Notice that phrase... "Letting the guys play"

I do think that Arians was overburdening them with schemes. I just couldn't say it that loud because everyone was screaming for him to be fired (overstatement, I know...).

It's like putting a bunch of sand in a bag... It needs to shake out, settle, the pockets get filled.. THEN we can determine what needs to be done. Arians cutting the scheming... and the line responding and playing better, and then Ben calling the plays all worked together.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm still not overly impressed with Hartwig, but hey - I don't have to play behind him - Ben does and if he's OK with him, so be it. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the Steelers address the C spot either via FA or the draft in '09.

#1LambertFan
10-02-2008, 07:43 PM
You are probably correct. All of the credit for a win should goto Ben and Arians. Only the blame for loss should be put on the guys in the trenches :wink02:

The blame for the loss is solely dedicated to Zierlen (not sure if I spelled that right), and so is the poor performance from our O-line this year and last. You don't come in and try to change the offensive line's style. We used to focus on strength and physicality under Grimm (super bowl win with amazing line) into one that focuses on sheer footwork and finesse. I played OT in high school and I don't like to brag but I think I was pretty good. Yeah, all I did was push, pull, and knock people on their a$$es, along with the occasional chop block:chuckle:. Also the fact that these boys are 300+ pounds unlike their lighter counterparts. Ben needs more time than teams in a West Coast offense system do. It's the way we play. Shut down the run, Establish the run, block the big play and com out with our big plays after the running game is in motion. These guys have the potential to be great and the current situation pisses me off. One of them cases where we should have took the "if it ain't broken then don't fix it" philosophy into consideration.

#1LambertFan
10-02-2008, 07:52 PM
I'm still not overly impressed with Hartwig, but hey - I don't have to play behind him - Ben does and if he's OK with him, so be it. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the Steelers address the C spot either via FA or the draft in '09.

Hartwig is not our problem. I think he is a quality center. If anything needs to be done it needs to be done with the tackles. With 2 monster tackles we don't really even need guards.

Shoes
10-02-2008, 07:54 PM
To me it seems like he snaps the ball a bit high

Preacher
10-02-2008, 08:24 PM
The blame for the loss is solely dedicated to Zierlen (not sure if I spelled that right), and so is the poor performance from our O-line this year and last. You don't come in and try to change the offensive line's style. We used to focus on strength and physicality under Grimm (super bowl win with amazing line) into one that focuses on sheer footwork and finesse. I played OT in high school and I don't like to brag but I think I was pretty good. Yeah, all I did was push, pull, and knock people on their a$$es, along with the occasional chop block:chuckle:. Also the fact that these boys are 300+ pounds unlike their lighter counterparts. Ben needs more time than teams in a West Coast offense system do. It's the way we play. Shut down the run, Establish the run, block the big play and com out with our big plays after the running game is in motion. These guys have the potential to be great and the current situation pisses me off. One of them cases where we should have took the "if it ain't broken then don't fix it" philosophy into consideration.

And these are the kind of posts that utterly irk me....

1. Our line was DESTROYED in the last year of Grimm and company. There were more sacks THAT YEAR then last year.

2. You do not keep the same line when the skill players on the team change. As much as you and everyone else here hate to admit it... me too.... The Pittsburgh Steelers were moving away from a 3 yard and a cloud of dust football. It started in 2001 when Cowher realized that he had the number 1 or 2 defense against the run, against the pass and offense on the run... and was sitting home AGAIN. watching the playoffs/Superbowl. He stated HIMSELF that he started to move towards passing the ball more. He moved too fast and caused 2003, which was corrected in 04. BUT... the players that were drafted showed a renewed determination to a DIFFERENT MENTALITY. Cowher's last three years of the draft... the number 1 pick was spent where? On the PASSING GAME.

So the you get your skill players.. .and then demand the line change for THEM. If they can't, or won't in the case of Faneca, then you find some people who will.

Let's be honest. This line was blown up in 2006. Cowher's last year. It couldn't do ANYTHING.

Blaming Cowher and Grimm's 1 dimensional offensive line mess on coach Z and Tomlin (which others have) is as assinine as attributing The D's strength to Tomlin.

Sure, Tomlin has done a couple things to help out our secondary... but the fundamental strength was there ALREADY... and the fundamental weakness of teh O line was there ALReADY.

It will take 3-5 years to fully make this team into the image of Tomlin. If our skill players hold up...and we get to focus solely on the lines.. then 3 is more than likely. otherwise, 4 or 5.

Some of you will point to another coach on another team... Sure.. but was that team as successful... and the coach that well loved? I point to Barry Switzer. The Cowboys were NEVER his team.

billybob
10-02-2008, 09:23 PM
Hartwig is improving each and every game imo. I have to go with our offensive predictability as our main area of concern. We are 3-1 after all, not 1-3.

Galax Steeler
10-03-2008, 04:33 AM
I still say Hartwig is an improvement over Mahan but as stated above mabe we can address this issue in the draft next year.

steelpride12
10-03-2008, 11:12 AM
Mahan or Hartwig we need to find a solid Center. Shows how important Hartings was.

CanadianSteel
10-03-2008, 11:27 AM
From what I have seen Hartwig is definately an improvement at Centre. Will he be in the pro bowl Nope...... For the most part on running and passing plays we are not seeing the center of the pocket and line pushed back into the Offensive backfield.
That alone is an improvement. The blitzes and pressure have created problems for all along the line but when Harwig engages in his one on one battle with defenders he is holding his own...... IMHO

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-03-2008, 11:45 AM
Hartwig is not our problem. I think he is a quality center. If anything needs to be done it needs to be done with the tackles. With 2 monster tackles we don't really even need guards.

I agree that Hartwig is a quality center (not a GREAT, but very good).

I completely disagree that you dont even need good guards if you have "monster tackles". It probably comes from the personal bias that you played tackle. You can have Orlando Pace, Bryant McKinnie, Willie Roaf, Walter Jones, etc......but without Steve Hutchinson, Will Sheilds, Alan Faneca, etc beside them they are not as good.

I also dont get this notion that Zeirline somehow instituted a "finesse style" on the offensive line ? :noidea: All he did was work on more footwork, hand placement and fundamentals that Grimm neglected. The O line still arrives at the point of attack with aggression.

Just hitting the guy across from you without regard for technique sometimes works in highschool, but it wont make it in college or the NFL. Marcus McNeill did a segment at the Pro Bowl on pass protection and he had a technique for every move and counter move. The guy sounded like a master.......no finesse in his game, but lots of footwork and hand placement.

Preacher
10-03-2008, 05:18 PM
From what I have seen Hartwig is definately an improvement at Centre. Will he be in the pro bowl Nope...... For the most part on running and passing plays we are not seeing the center of the pocket and line pushed back into the Offensive backfield.
That alone is an improvement. The blitzes and pressure have created problems for all along the line but when Harwig engages in his one on one battle with defenders he is holding his own...... IMHO

Dang canucks!!!

:rofl:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-03-2008, 06:40 PM
Dang canucks!!!

:rofl:

Yeah, I bet he cant spell "Glock .40", "Smith & Wesson" or "sub prime mortgage" properly either. :wink02:

Preacher
10-03-2008, 06:53 PM
Yeah, I bet he cant spell "Glock .40", "Smith & Wesson" or "sub prime mortgage" properly either. :wink02:

Yeah...

Many of the cant even spell Canadian right... They spell it Canadien. I guess that is what happens when you are from Montreal! :chuckle:

DACEB
10-03-2008, 06:57 PM
Yeah...

Many of the cant even spell Canadian right... They spell it Canadien. I guess that is what happens when you are from Montreal! :chuckle:

Hey, wait a minute, I'm from Montreal.

Preacher
10-03-2008, 07:04 PM
Hey, wait a minute, I'm from Montreal.

the infamous "La Quebeca man"

That explains everything! :toofunny:

SuckItUp
10-04-2008, 01:58 AM
Yeah...I'm from Canada too, not that it makes the slightest difference where you're from, but instead where you are now.

HometownGal
10-04-2008, 08:30 AM
Hartwig is not our problem. I think he is a quality center. If anything needs to be done it needs to be done with the tackles. With 2 monster tackles we don't really even need guards.

Oh - so the C isn't solely to blame for the OL problems this season? Hmmmmmm. :scratchchin:

I disagree with you about Hartwig being a "quality" center. He's adequate at best and I've seen him getting beat in each of the games we've played. I don't blame him solely for the woes of that OL, but he's a part of the problem just as Mahan was.

P.S. I was born in Canada, too, but consider myself a proud American! (Amerinuck) :thumbsup::chuckle:

Texasteel
10-04-2008, 08:57 AM
I think we sould try to bet Mahan back so we would at least have someone to blame for all this.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Yeah...

Many of the cant even spell Canadian right... They spell it Canadien. I guess that is what happens when you are from Montreal! :chuckle:

Yeah, and they had to export Celine Dion to the USA.......Damn you!!! But the Montreal Smoked meat sandwich makes up for it.

GBMelBlount
10-04-2008, 09:25 AM
Preacher

Let's be honest. This line was blown up in 2006. Cowher's last year. It couldn't do ANYTHING.
Sure, Tomlin has done a couple things to help out our secondary... but the fundamental strength was there ALREADY... and the fundamental weakness of teh O line was there ALReADY.

It will take 3-5 years to fully make this team into the image of Tomlin. If our skill players hold up...and we get to focus solely on the lines.. then 3 is more than likely. otherwise, 4 or 5.

This is why I am so surprised the line has been largely ignored the last two off seasons even though there appears to be general agreement that it may take several years to properly rebuild a line as decimated as ours. To me, as a casual fan, it appears that a solid line may be the biggest obstacle preventing us from going deep into the playoffs, or competing for the ring. Frustrated, that's all.

Michael Keller
10-04-2008, 11:14 AM
I am asking myself many questions about the offense and the coaching in general.

Why is that our quarterback has to take over the offense so to speak by going to the no huddle ?

Why is that Moore has gotten meaningful playing time only because of the fact that all other backs have been injured?

These two questions among many more makes me question this coaching staff. This is very frustrating to observe . I do not want to hear about statistics . What is effective and produces solid winning football game after game? That is the question for me? There is not iota of doubt in my mind that Arians is not a completed offensive coordinator . Meaning while he apparently gets along with Ben and perhaps has other coaching talents his game planning and on the field adjustments are very poor.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-04-2008, 11:31 AM
I am asking myself many questions about the offense and the coaching in general.

Why is that our quarterback has to take over the offense so to speak by going to the no huddle ?

Why is that Moore has gotten meaningful playing time only because of the fact that all other backs have been injured?

.

You played the game....surely you can relate.

If you are on the field and feel like you can pound the ball at the guy across from you, you dont want the coach sending in play action passes. As a player you feel what is happening in the game and like to do what you think is most comfortable to you. This is what Ben said.

"We kind of get a rhythm," he said. "It's going off what I see, not necessarily what the coaches see."
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribunereview/sports/s_590939.html

As for Moore getting more playing time.....he is the #3 RB and 3rd down back. He got about as much as Verron Haynes did in the past.

Nothing out of the ordinary that I can see from an offensive coaching or head coaching perspective here........and by the way, I watched the rest of the game and Hartwig did play very well, Stapleton filled in nicely and Colon could use some TE help chipping the speed rushers.

cubanstogie
10-04-2008, 01:08 PM
I am asking myself many questions about the offense and the coaching in general.

Why is that our quarterback has to take over the offense so to speak by going to the no huddle ?

Why is that Moore has gotten meaningful playing time only because of the fact that all other backs have been injured?

These two questions among many more makes me question this coaching staff. This is very frustrating to observe . I do not want to hear about statistics . What is effective and produces solid winning football game after game? That is the question for me? There is not iota of doubt in my mind that Arians is not a completed offensive coordinator . Meaning while he apparently gets along with Ben and perhaps has other coaching talents his game planning and on the field adjustments are very poor.

Michael,

I don't mean to offend you but it seems you are looking at the glass half empty in regards to Steelers this year. Its obvious you dislike Arians. But why question how they got it done. No huddle, Ben, Moore whatever. They came back in second half after one of the worst first halves I have seen. They turned it around. Zero sacks. Why not look at the positives. I am not asking you to be homer and put blinders on. Call a spade a spade. But if you are going to rip Arians a new one every time they don't produce, you have to give him some credit when they do produce. Thats only fair. A win is a win this early in season, especially against the Ravens or Browns IMO.

DACEB
10-05-2008, 12:15 PM
the infamous "La Quebeca man"

That explains everything! :toofunny:

Well, if that means I'm good then, yes!

P.S. I was born in Canada, too, but consider myself a proud American! (Amerinuck) :thumbsup::chuckle:

Ha!!:flap:

DACEB
10-05-2008, 12:43 PM
I am asking myself many questions about the offense and the coaching in general.
Why is that our quarterback has to take over the offense so to speak by going to the no huddle ?
Why is that Moore has gotten meaningful playing time only because of the fact that all other backs have been injured?
These two questions among many more makes me question this coaching staff. This is very frustrating to observe .

I agree with your thoughts MK. I don't like the game-planning or the in-game adjustments I've been seeing either. I also agree with you, in that Tomlin needs to address this issue head on. The buck stops with him afterall.

As for Moore getting more playing time.....he is the #3 RB and 3rd down back. He got about as much as Verron Haynes did in the past.

That's a poor comparison, IMO, Gonzo. Different staff, and higher expectations on offense since the arrival of Ben, FWP, Miller, the new staff and new additions. I'm also a proponent for rotating guys in and out. Tomlin has done a fine job of rotating guys on the D-line, but is running Willie 'til the wheels fall off again.

Nothing out of the ordinary that I can see from an offensive coaching or head coaching perspective here...

C'mon Gonzo, you're way better than that. The offensive game planning, as far as using our strengths and attacking the opponents weaknesses, is at best unimaginative. In-game adjustments and play-calling are equally questionable. C'mon Gonzo, you surely can't deny that. There's only so many times you can dig yourself out of a hole. The sputtering O puts pressure on a presently (and possibly to get better) outstanding D also. And it's not off base to say the buck ultimitely stops at Tomlin.