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View Full Version : Gameday Thread: Palin vs. Biden. Let's Get It On!


revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 11:10 AM
Might as well...all the crap under one roof, so to speak.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:22 AM
Sad thing is, revs, that no matter how well Palin does in tonight's debate, it's going to be spun like a web by the Demos and liberal media. I can't wait to see tomorrow morning's threads around here. :applaudit:

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 11:33 AM
I will say this: I could care less who moderates the debate. None of these moderators is casting a single vote for the GOP this year (or any other for that matter) anyway, so they could have Obama's mother moderate for all the difference it will make.

Vis
10-02-2008, 12:51 PM
Will Palin remember all the stock answers being drummed into her head? She has style when she doesn't fumble due to lack of knowledge.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 12:54 PM
Will Palin remember all the stock answers being drummed into her head? She has style when she doesn't fumble due to lack of knowledge.

Will Biden be sober enough to even participate in the debate? :alcoholic

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 12:55 PM
Will Palin remember all the stock answers being drummed into her head? She has style when she doesn't fumble due to lack of knowledge.

You think Obama knew all about the topics he was discussing at the last debate 4 years ago?

Do you think Sarah Palin is incapable of formulating her own opinions and conclusions?

Vis
10-02-2008, 12:56 PM
Will Biden be sober enough to even participate in the debate? :alcoholic

Does he need to be against Joe Sixpack?

Vis
10-02-2008, 12:59 PM
You think Obama knew all about the topics he was discussing at the last debate 4 years ago?

Do you think Sarah Palin is incapable of formulating her own opinions and conclusions?

I don't think she is incapable. I think she never has on a national level for national issues and she isn't ready. I'm not saying she couldn't be some day. Although I am scared of someone who doesn't believe in science.:hatsoff:

Leftoverhard
10-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Do you think Sarah Palin is incapable of formulating her own opinions and conclusions?

Yes, I think she is totally incapable. She is completely unprepared to answer even the simplest question. Fortunately for her, the bar for her has been lowered to the floor so unless she starts speaking in tongues or her nose starts growing longer on national tv, she'll be a total success tonight!
:hypno: :talker: :hypno:

MACH1
10-02-2008, 01:39 PM
Lets hope biden goes into his story about how he was shot at and had to dive for cover. :rolleyes:


Fox News was first Tuesday to resurrect Biden's statement from a Democratic debate in July 2007, when the exuberant senator from Delaware tried to buff up his Iraq bona fides. The then-presidential candidate said he had been "inside the Green Zone, where I've been seven times, and shot at."

Biden later conceded in an interview with the Hill newspaper that the shot amounted to an explosion or projectile landing outside a building where he was staying in the heavily fortified compound in downtown Baghdad. Unsettling, no doubt, but as Biden acknowledged: "It's not like I had someone holding a gun to my head."

More recently, as noted by both Fox News and the Associated Press, Biden has talked about how a helicopter he and other senators were riding in was "forced down" high in the mountains of Afghanistan last February. Although Biden never said so, his account might lead some voters to believe enemy fire brought the copter down. In fact, it landed because of a heavy snow storm and the delegation had to drive the rest of the way to its destination.

The Associated Press report Wednesday reminded that Biden's tendency to exaggerate came with a corollary problem -- pilfering phrases from other politicians, including then-British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock. That helped sink Biden's 1988 presidential bid.

Biden recently waxed on about Franklin D. Roosevelt's leadership during the Great Depression, a time before he was born. That may explain, but not excuse, the senator's recollection of FDR addressing the nation on television (a device not yet available at the time) when the stock market crashed (an event that came three years before Roosevelt's presidency).
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia2-2008oct02,0,3500008.story

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 02:10 PM
I think she never has on a national level for national issues and she isn't ready. I'm not saying she couldn't be some day.

And Obama is???? :jawdrop:

For the eight bazillionth time - McCain is the Presidential candidate, not Sarah Palin. Geez you DemoRATs are hard headed. :banging:

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 06:02 PM
Yes, I think she is totally incapable. She is completely unprepared to answer even the simplest question. Fortunately for her, the bar for her has been lowered to the floor so unless she starts speaking in tongues or her nose starts growing longer on national tv, she'll be a total success tonight!
:hypno: :talker: :hypno:

Ridiculous.

I'm guessing she shows a pretty good knowledge of the topics and issues tonight, which will PROVE that she's a very quick study. Which will also COMPLETELY deflate this big balloon of hyperbole the left has been pumping out non-stop for the last 3 weeks.

Then what?

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:03 PM
Nice! Sarah asked permission to call him Joe. Respectful.

9:18 Palin beat Biden down on taxes. Good for her...She is showing a nice knowledge of these subjects

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:26 PM
Biden's losing it a little bit at around 9:26.

Windfall profit taxing is an AWFUL idea for the Federal government.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:27 PM
Joe, you can't give the tax breaks that you and barry have been talking about. Think about it. 700 billion bail out with a 1 trillion in new spending and you want to give tax breaks. Your math is fuzzy!

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:28 PM
9:28, he's attacking his own running mate. LOL

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:32 PM
That was interesting...and a great observation.

Perhaps they were thinking better to point it out before she did?

Palin is KILLING Biden! I'm shocked.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Biden KNOWS that Global Warming is man made?

He KNOWS it is?

I don't. Science doesn't. The planet is warming, a bit, but how and why is a theory to most, a mystery to many, and a certainty to a very few (Biden, Gore, et al).

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:40 PM
I agree, global warming is a work in progress. No one knows for sure why. So to stand up and say that you know with out a doubt that it is man made makes you look STUPID!

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:40 PM
Palin DESTROYED the whole Obama/Biden platform on gay marriage. She made them say they DON'T support it, which isn't really what they support.

I'm really taken aback by this...I thought Palin would do well, but she is KILLING.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:43 PM
What? Barry voted against the same bill that McCain did because there was a timeline attached?????WTF,, Joe is losing it. That answer made no sense whatsoever!

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:47 PM
McCain was the ONE out in front with the surge and barry and joe was nowhere to be found. Now that the surge has worked barry and joe has mud on their face. LOL. Nice job Joe.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:49 PM
You know, if Biden could actually speak clearly and concisely, he could score some points...but he is NO orator. He just stumbles all over himself.

He's doing a good job at :47 about Pakistan. But the message is too scrambled. Palin is very direct, very articulate. She's naming names...I'm impressed...she did her homework. That was the initial thrust...she was a "dolt" and "idiot".

Don't think so...

Mosca
10-02-2008, 09:50 PM
It's NU-CLEE-AR.

NOT

NEW-CUE-LAR.

That's all I have to say. Carry on.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:50 PM
He did say he would sit down with them! I can not believe some of the things that Joe is saying.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 09:54 PM
She nailed the Israel question.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:55 PM
Bush insisted on elections? Biden and Obama objected?

Did Joe Biden just say that he objected to democratic elections because Hamas would win.

OBJECTED to DEMOCRATIC elections. Biden just said that.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 09:58 PM
This is the Democratic platform right there....connect McCain with Bush.

It's that simple. And most people are simple, and they'll buy that.

McCain needs to uncouple from Bush completely and finally.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 10:01 PM
What? He just said that the surge would not work in afghanistan, but then says we need more troops!

augustashark
10-02-2008, 10:02 PM
American people have a stomach for success! LOL, but not in Iraq!

He is just falling all over the place. Unreal!

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:04 PM
Point Palin!

Face it though, guys. What we think doesn't matter. What matters is what those who are undecided think. We are going to see it through our red or blue glasses. Who knows what the undecideds are thinking.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 10:06 PM
She's very conversational, I'm really impressed...and I didn't expect that.

She's much much more than holding her own.

Biden should ask her about humans riding dinosaurs. That would shut her down...

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I figured she'd do well at being folksy. She has warmed up quite well. My biggest complaint is that when she doesn't know the answer or doesn't have a clue, she deflects the question, or just answers a different one as if nothing happened.

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 10:11 PM
I figured she'd do well at being folksy. She has warmed up quite well. My biggest complaint is that when she doesn't know the answer she deflects the question.

Haven't seen that...she went back and answered the things Biden brought up.

This is not a good track for Biden. Pounding Bush as McCain won't work...

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 10:16 PM
I will give the moderator a great prop for that(Questions about both saying they didn't want or care about the VP job)...but, seriously, after Cheney, the veep job has a new importance. It's no longer only worth a "bucket of warm spit".

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:16 PM
Ahhh, she even said that that was what she was going to do, and then she did it. But whatever. Both my wife and daughter have already tuned it out as boring. My daughter went to bed, my wife went into the other room and is watching QVC, and I'm already distracted and here typing. I think that once it wasn't bloodshed with spatter everywhere, everyone lost interest and tuned out. I'm thinking of switching to the Pitt game.

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 10:16 PM
It's NU-CLEE-AR.

NOT

NEW-CUE-LAR.

That's all I have to say. Carry on.
I have to call you on this one, not because you are 100% right, but because I know how people speak and how people pronounce and enunciate words throughout the country. If you want me to validate my credentials, I certainly will, but I choose not to at this time. Just remember that people are taught how to say things – blue collar, white collar, educated and non-educated. Have you had a friend that says neither or either a different way than you - how about creek - how about I? Habits are hard to break. There is no stupidity there whatsoever, tenfold.

I like you, but I do not like that you posted about the word nuclear. Has there ever been a word that you got wrong? I had a word that I got wrong today and it was saltimbocca. Who knew? I should have known, but I did not.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:20 PM
I have to call you on this one, not because you are 100% right, but because I know how people speak and how people pronounce and enunciate words throughout the country. If you want me to validate my credentials, I certainly will, but I choose not to at this time. Just remember that people are taught how to say things – blue collar, white collar, educated and non-educated. Have you had a friend that says neither or either a different way than you - how about creek - how about I? Habits are hard to break. There is no stupidity there whatsoever, tenfold.

I like you, but I do not like that you posted about the word nuclear. Has there ever been a word that you got wrong? I had a word that I got wrong today and it was saltimbocca. Who knew? I should have known, but I did not.

What???? I don't care where you are or where you have been, nuclear is spelled, and supposed to be annunciated the same way.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 10:23 PM
I figured she'd do well at being folksy. She has warmed up quite well. My biggest complaint is that when she doesn't know the answer or doesn't have a clue, she deflects the question, or just answers a different one as if nothing happened.

Ahhhh, is that not what all politicians do?

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:23 PM
Hey, I didn't mean to set you off, but that one is a pet peeve of mine. Once someone reaches the level of candidate for VP, that person should know the proper pronunciation of nuclear. The rest of us can say it how we want, but someone in charge of nuclear weapons should know what they are called.

Steelman16
10-02-2008, 10:23 PM
The only thing that's missing is some good ol' fashioned posts from the revered Tony Hipchest. Politics just ain't the same without him in town. :chuckle:

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:24 PM
Oops; point Biden.

Mosca
10-02-2008, 10:28 PM
I'm switching to the game; let the pundits sort it out!

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 10:28 PM
What???? I don't care where you are or where you have been, nuclear is spelled, and supposed to be annunciated the same way.

This was not for you...I am sure that you do not care because it was not a post to you.

Why did you get so upset?

I was just making a statement about words. No offense.

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 10:32 PM
Hey, I didn't mean to set you off, but that one is a pet peeve of mine. Once someone reaches the level of candidate for VP, that person should know the proper pronunciation of nuclear. The rest of us can say it how we want, but someone in charge of nuclear weapons should know what they are called.

Pet peeve of mine too, but we are who we are and as I said THIS ENTIRE country speaks differenty in so many dialects. No need to make people stand up high just with words - what they do is what matters the most. Actions speak louder than words.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:32 PM
This was not for you...I am sure that you do not care because it was not a post to you.

Why did you get so upset?

I was just making a statement about words. No offense.

Oh, being a part of this forum, I thought I could reply to a post that tried to make everybody sound like we should accept stupid. It is not a fight that you need to fight, I am sure you can say nuclear properly.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 10:32 PM
On a lighter note, don't you think someone could have told Joe to get a hair cut before one of the most important things he's ever done. Geesh.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 10:33 PM
I'm VERY proud of Sarah and extremely pleased with her side of the debate thus far. :thumbsup::tt03: Biden has appeared most of the night like he wants to blow an artery - when you see that toothy grin, you know his blood is about to boil over. :toofunny: (Don't worry Joe - that scotch is only about 20 minutes away). :chuckle:

All I've really heard from Biden tonight is deflection and attempting to boost Obama (along with several out and out LIES).

As for Sarah's pronunciation of a particular word - ever hear someone from Brooklyn or Boston talk? Who cares how someone pronounces a word - it's their understanding of the word they are using and in the proper context that is most important overall.

GREAT JOB SARAH!!!!!

I definitely give Palin the win in this debate - hands down. :applaudit::hatsoff:

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 10:35 PM
Oh, being a part of this forum, I thought I could reply to a post that tried to make everybody sound like we should accept stupid. It is not a fight that you need to fight, I am sure you can say nuclear properly.

OK - so you want to designate someone as "stupid" for not pronouncing a word the same way you would?

How about Obama and the word Pakistan?

I've always pronounced it Pack-i-stan. Obama has repeatedly pronounced it Pock-is-ton. :coffee:

stillers4me
10-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Biden talked more about himself than he did Obama. Did someone forget to tell him he lost in the primarys?

revefsreleets
10-02-2008, 10:37 PM
Yeah, I'm sure the left will disagree, but she held her own. She is a very quick study, and she was very much a new thing in the political landscape.

She was the REAL first middle American who stood up on stage in a politically elite environment. And she not only held her own, but she won.

She won...

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:37 PM
OK - so you want to designate someone as "stupid" for not pronouncing a word the same way you would?

How about Obama and the word Pakistan?

I've always pronounced it Pack-i-stan. Obama has repeatedly pronounced it Pock-is-ton. :coffee:

That sounds more like an accent than stupid, but hey you keep looking blindly into the light.

And hey if Nucular is ok with you , then what does that say?

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 10:43 PM
Oh, being a part of this forum, I thought I could reply to a post that tried to make everybody sound like we should accept stupid. It is not a fight that you need to fight, I am sure you can say nuclear properly.

No - we should not accept stupid - I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do think that the elite should take a step back and understand, speak and get to the level of the majority of Americans. We are mostly middle class. We are not stupid.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 10:43 PM
What I thought was funny was Biden ending with "My dad always said "Champ," when you get knocked down you get back up and keep on fighting." What he preaches now is, "hey middle class, when you get knocked down, it's the fault of the evil greedy rich people so vote for me, I'll take an extra trillion from the rich, filter it through the government, and give you some extra beer money." :wink02:

The Patriot
10-02-2008, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I'm sure the left will disagree, but she held her own. She is a very quick study, and she was very much a new thing in the political landscape.

She was the REAL first middle American who stood up on stage in a politically elite environment. And she not only held her own, but she won.

She won...

Explain to me how she won. Biden reputted all of her statements and she had no response. All I heard from Palin was the typical "I'm just a dandy good old American who loves her country too much."

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 10:51 PM
Explain to me how she won. Biden reputted all of her statements and she had no response. All I heard from Palin was the typical "I'm just a dandy good old American who loves her country too much."

She appealed to me, but to many who are undereducated, unmotivated, underachievers, or who who tend to blame others for their problems, Biden will sound better. So I would imagine it will end up a draw or in bidens favor.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:51 PM
No - we should not accept stupid - I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do think that the elite should take a step back and understand, speak and get to the level of the majority of Americans. We are mostly middle class. We are not stupid.

I kinda think you are missing the point. I am not calling you stupid. I think that a world leader should be able to talk. I don't think that "let's smoke them out of their hole" is acceptable, or "you fooled me once, you can't fool me again" is acceptable. Nor is "nucular"

Other than that, I definitely think Palin sounded like she was getting overwhelmed, and there is not a chance in hell I would vote for that ticket.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 10:51 PM
That sounds more like an accent than stupid, but hey you keep looking blindly into the light.

And hey if Nucular is ok with you , then what does that say?

What kind of accent - a Muslim accent? :chuckle:

Spin, spin, spin. Did it ever occur to you that Alaskans may have an accent too? :doh:

If all you comprehended out of that entire debate was that Governor Palin pronounced a single word differently than you do, what does THAT say? :coffee:

augustashark
10-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Explain to me how she won. Biden reputted all of her statements and she had no response. All I heard from Palin was the typical "I'm just a dandy good old American who loves her country too much."

She connected with the American people, Biden sounded like the senator he is. To me it's clear who won.

stillers4me
10-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Explain to me how she won. Biden reputted all of her statements and she had no response. All I heard from Palin was the typical "I'm just a dandy good old American who loves her country too much."

The moderator rarely gave her the last word......it was mostly given to Biden. And just because he said something, doesn't mean it was actually true and straight forward. Like how McCain voted.......everyone knows that there's always tons of pork attatched to any bill, even money for the troops. And everyone knows how McCain hates thats.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 10:55 PM
Other than that, I definitely think Palin sounded like she was getting overwhelmed, and there is not a chance in hell I would vote for that ticket.

Palin smoked Biden like a cheap cigar and even HE knows it. I'll bet that bottle of J & B Joe had hidden under his podium is about empty by now. :alcoholic :toofunny:

fansince'76
10-02-2008, 10:55 PM
The moderator rarely gave her the last word......it was mostly given to Biden. And just because he said something, doesn't mean it was actually true and straight forward. Like how McCain voted.......everyone knows that there's always tons of pork attatched to any bill, even money for the troops. And everyone knows how McCain hates thats.

To me, he lost it with his absolute assertion that he KNEW global warming is without a doubt 100% manmade. Mmmm....no, he doesn't.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:57 PM
What kind of accent - a Muslim accent? :chuckle:

Spin, spin, spin. Did it ever occur to you that Alaskans may have an accent too? :doh:

If all you comprehended out of that entire debate was that Governor Palin pronounced a single word differently than you do, what does THAT say? :coffee:

lol, she got beat up on several areas, she was well rehearsed though. The main thing I did not like about her though was that she sounded like she was reading everything, Biden sounded like he was talking from some experience, but hey I guess HE was.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 10:58 PM
To me, he lost it with his absolute assertion that he KNEW global warming is without a doubt 100% manmade. Mmmm....no, he doesn't.

I told my wife that too, but then said that it will only matter to the 10% who have researched it, and they already will probably be voting McCain. Though I am sure CNN, NBC & CBS will point out his stupidity. :chuckle:

The Patriot
10-02-2008, 10:58 PM
She appealed to me, but to many who are undereducated, unmotivated, underachievers, or who who tend to blame others for their problems, Biden will sound better. So I would imagine it will end up a draw or in bidens favor.
How about you name an issue that you, an 'educated person', believe that Palin won and we'll access what both canidates had to say? But don't come to me with this bs name calling.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 10:58 PM
To me, he lost it with his absolute assertion that he KNEW global warming is without a doubt 100% manmade. Mmmm....no, he doesn't.

He did sound like an idiot saying that....it is a cycle. that is a fact.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 10:59 PM
lol, she got beat up on several areas, she was well rehearsed though. The main thing I did not like about her though was that she sounded like she was reading everything, Biden sounded like he was talking from some experience, but hey I guess HE was.

LOL. It's funny that instead of talking about their positions on issues, like the economy and taxes, we are talking about pronunciation and their delivery, the second of which is completely open to subjective interpretation imo. :drink:

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:00 PM
Explain to me how she won. Biden reputted all of her statements and she had no response. All I heard from Palin was the typical "I'm just a dandy good old American who loves her country too much."

Biden rebutted SHIT. He ducked several questions and when he couldn't think fast enough, he started with the Obama love fest again - the same Obama HE HIMSELF said he would NEVER support. How soon you Libs forget that well known fact. I think his nose grew an inch a couple of times tonight, too. Sarah nailed him on his lies and Biden's adam's apple was up and down like an elevator - a tell tale sign of a man knowing that he is screwed! :laughing:

Sarah Palin is Main Street America and it shined like a beacon tonight. :applaudit:

augustashark
10-02-2008, 11:01 PM
How about you name an issue that you, an 'educated person', believe that Palin won and we'll access what both canidates had to say? But don't come to me with this bs name calling.

Energy! nuff said.

Texasteel
10-02-2008, 11:02 PM
Sarah did a great job, I thought she sounded bright and articulate. She also had a lot of energy which Biden could not begin to keep up with. She also looked comfortable after things go started, like she wanted to be there. I never got that impression from Biden, he looked like he was not happy at all and didn't care who knew it.
Sarah showed what she needed to show, Biden just looked tired to me.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:02 PM
lol, she got beat up on several areas, she was well rehearsed though. The main thing I did not like about her though was that she sounded like she was reading everything, Biden sounded like he was talking from some experience, but hey I guess HE was.

Palin looked directly into the camera 99% of the time where Biden did not. I didn't see where she got beat up at all - I clearly witnessed HER doing the beat down and from the expressions on Biden's face and his body language, he knew it too. :laughing:

Of course you know CBS, NBC and CNN will spin it very differently.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 11:03 PM
LOL. It's funny that instead of talking about their positions on issues, like the economy and taxes, you are talking about pronunciation and YOUR take on their delivery. :drink:

Actually, I think it is funnier that you are commenting on my comment than making a point. I just commented on someone thinking that word pronounced incorrectly was stupidity.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:03 PM
How about you name an issue that you, an 'educated person', believe that Palin won and we'll access what both canidates had to say? But don't come to me with this bs name calling.

It's simple, economics 101. requires one simple course. Taxes are too high, government is way too big and inefficient, they are the biggest problem our country is facing. I heard Palin at least mention that. Biden NEVER did once....

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:04 PM
Actually, I think it is funnier that you are commenting on my comment than making a point. I just commented on someone thinking that word pronounced incorrectly was stupidity.

Read my last post and go for it Bomber.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:06 PM
Actually, I think it is funnier that you are commenting on my comment than making a point. I just commented on someone thinking that word pronounced incorrectly was stupidity.

I'd call it a mispronunciation, not stupidity Mr. genius.

Godfather
10-02-2008, 11:06 PM
I'm a J-Mac supporter and I thought it was a draw. There were no classic moments like "You're no Jack Kennedy" or "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe". Both candidates avoided any potential pitfalls. Palin isn't a smooth talker but that's not necessarily bad given the current level of cynicism about politics, and she did manage to get rolling enough times and score enough points to ease any concerns about her being Quayle in a skirt.

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 11:07 PM
Palin looked directly into the camera 99% of the time where Biden did not. I didn't see where she got beat up at all - I clearly witnessed HER doing the beat down and from the expressions on Biden's face and his body language, he knew it too. :laughing:

Of course you know CBS, NBC and CNN will spin it very differently.

When he smoked her on economy and taxes, that is what you saw? hmmm, I didn't see that but I will let it go. I love you steeler fans!!!!

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 11:08 PM
I kinda think you are missing the point. I am not calling you stupid. I think that a world leader should be able to talk. I don't think that "let's smoke them out of their hole" is acceptable, or "you fooled me once, you can't fool me again" is acceptable. Nor is "nucular"

Other than that, I definitely think Palin sounded like she was getting overwhelmed, and there is not a chance in hell I would vote for that ticket.

MEEEE missing the POINT - YEAAA me YEAAA

Kinda - huh???? Is that a word that makes the USA a better place? Do YOU vote? Can YOU vote?

I AM STUPID CAUSE I AM A GEAR HEAD AN WORK ON CARS AND CAN BUILD A ENGIN WITH ME HANDS _ WORDS R ABOV ME HEAD. Yet, I can vote.

Point missed!

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 11:09 PM
I'd call it a mispronunciation, not stupidity Mr. genius.

I suppose you would, but hey you are really smart too....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Blonde Bomber
10-02-2008, 11:11 PM
MEEEE missing the POINT - YEAAA me YEAAA

Kinda - huh???? Is that a word that makes the USA a better place? Do YOU vote? Can YOU vote?

I AM STUPID CAUSE I AM A GEAR HEAD AN WORK ON CARS AND CAN BUILD A ENGIN WITH ME HANDS _ WORDS R ABOV ME HEAD. Yet, I can vote.

Point missed!

What are you in 3rd grade??? Wow you can build an engine...big deal, so can I...can I vote? probably longer than you honey.

fansince'76
10-02-2008, 11:12 PM
Please chill a bit here folks. Thanks. :drink:

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:14 PM
I suppose you would, but hey you are really smart too....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


I made a simple statement I believe to be the truth and I will gladly debate it with you or Patriot. If you disagree with any of my opinions simply tell me why.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I think GB is smart. Stupid is as stupid does!

LOL, grow up bomber. Like mother said "if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing at all".

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:18 PM
When he smoked her on economy and taxes, that is what you saw? hmmm, I didn't see that but I will let it go. I love you steeler fans!!!!


That is EXACTLY what I told my wife. I said that although I completely agreed with Palin on these issues, bidens pitch would sound better to the type of people I mentioned before (forgetting to also mention the class envy crowd). I am not saying those are the only types, just a good portion of it.

Texasteel
10-02-2008, 11:18 PM
I suppose you would, but hey you are really smart too....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

When you attack the person, and not the point you have already lost the argument.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:20 PM
When he smoked her on economy and taxes, that is what you saw? hmmm, I didn't see that but I will let it go. I love you steeler fans!!!!

Don't know what you were smokin there Bomber, but Biden did not smoke Palin on either economy OR taxes. All he did, which is what he did throughout the entire debate, is deflect, deflect, deflect, pimp Obama, the candidate he would NEVER support as President, and live in the past (ooooooh how I hate those last 4 words LOL!) by trying unsuccessfully to align McCain with Bush. For every volley he tossed, Sarah hit it back and he looked like a flacid weenie by the time the debate was over.

MACH1
10-02-2008, 11:20 PM
Hey, I didn't mean to set you off, but that one is a pet peeve of mine. Once someone reaches the level of candidate for VP, that person should know the proper pronunciation of nuclear. The rest of us can say it how we want, but someone in charge of nuclear weapons should know what they are called.

So are you a tamato, tomato or tomata guy? Thats a long reach to find something to complain about.

Mosca
10-02-2008, 11:22 PM
LOL. It's funny that instead of talking about their positions on issues, like the economy and taxes, we are talking about pronunciation and their delivery, the second of which is completely open to subjective interpretation imo. :drink:

Hey, I only brought it up because I knew that there was no point in us arguing who won, but that NUCULAR grated on my ears. I didn't think that it would be an issue; I didn't even think anyone would remark on it, and if they did, I didn't think it would start an argument.

I don't disagree that people talk however they want; but if you are going to be in charge of nuclear weapons, you should know how to pronounce them, is all I think. Hey, maybe it's a continuation of Bush's policy? :hunch: I dunno. Maybe it's intentional, an attempt to be folksy? :hunch:

But whatever. I didn't mean to upset anyone, but there is nothing you can do to make it stop grating on my ears, except maybe call Palin up and tell her to stop.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:22 PM
What are you in 3rd grade??? Wow you can build an engine...big deal, so can I...can I vote? probably longer than you honey.

C'mon Bomber, that was really harsh and totally unfair. You fired the first dart. I believe you owe the lady an apology.

HometownGal
10-02-2008, 11:24 PM
Hey, I only brought it up because I knew that there was no point in us arguing who won, but that NUCULAR grated on my ears. I didn't think that it would be an issue; I didn't even think anyone would remark on it, and if they did, I didn't think it would start an argument.

I don't disagree that people talk however they want; but if you are going to be in charge of nuclear weapons, you should know how to pronounce them, is all I think. Hey, maybe it's a continuation of Bush's policy? :hunch: I dunno. Maybe it's intentional, an attempt to be folksy? :hunch:

But whatever. I didn't mean to upset anyone, but there is nothing you can do to make it stop grating on my ears, except maybe call Palin up and tell her to stop.

Well - if Obama is campaigning to be the leader of this country and wants to sit down and talk nicey nice with Pakistan, he ought to learn how to correctly pronounce it. It's Pack-i-stan, not Pock-is-ton. :drink:

Mosca
10-02-2008, 11:24 PM
So are you a tamato, tomato or tomata guy? Thats a long reach to find something to complain about.

See above. There's no point on debating who "won", because we all have our minds made up and see it through our red or blue glasses. I wanted to point out something light. It wasn't intended to start an argument, and if it had been Biden doing it, or the moderator, I would have posted the exact same thing.

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:27 PM
Hey, I only brought it up because I knew that there was no point in us arguing who won, but that NUCULAR grated on my ears. I didn't think that it would be an issue; I didn't even think anyone would remark on it, and if they did, I didn't think it would start an argument.

I don't disagree that people talk however they want; but if you are going to be in charge of nuclear weapons, you should know how to pronounce them, is all I think. Hey, maybe it's a continuation of Bush's policy? :hunch: I dunno. Maybe it's intentional, an attempt to be folksy? :hunch:

But whatever. I didn't mean to upset anyone, but there is nothing you can do to make it stop grating on my ears, except maybe call Palin up and tell her to stop.

Mosca, I consider you a friend. Even when we have a disagreement, I never lose respect for you. There was nothing wrong with you commenting on it all.

Mosca
10-02-2008, 11:28 PM
I'd call it a mispronunciation, not stupidity Mr. genius.


It's neither. It's only a mispronunciation if she did it only once, and whatever she is, she isn't stupid. It's unwillingness to change, I would think. She used to be a sportscaster, so she understands how to correct her diction.

Mosca
10-02-2008, 11:30 PM
Mosca, I consider you a friend. Even when we have a disagreement, I never lose respect for you. There was nothing wrong with you commenting on it all.

Thanks, and I feel the same way. The last sentence, I got mixed up; I meant to direct that toward those who were actually taking issue with it, I knew your comment was "meta".

MACH1
10-02-2008, 11:30 PM
See above. There's no point on debating who "won", because we all have our minds made up and see it through our red or blue glasses. I wanted to point out something light. It wasn't intended to start an argument, and if it had been Biden doing it, or the moderator, I would have posted the exact same thing.

No prob. :drink: I missed that part anyway. :stirthepot:


I think Alskans have accents anyways, kind of Canadian sounding to me. :noidea:

GBMelBlount
10-02-2008, 11:33 PM
I would like to apologize to anyone I've offended. I'm going to bed now....

Polamalu Princess
10-02-2008, 11:37 PM
I am done - love all of you - Thank you HG!

Go Steelers!

The Patriot
10-02-2008, 11:41 PM
Biden rebutted SHIT. He ducked several questions and when he couldn't think fast enough, he started with the Obama love fest again - the same Obama HE HIMSELF said he would NEVER support. How soon you Libs forget that well known fact. I think his nose grew an inch a couple of times tonight, too. Sarah nailed him on his lies and Biden's adam's apple was up and down like an elevator - a tell tale sign of a man knowing that he is screwed! :laughing:

Sarah Palin is Main Street America and it shined like a beacon tonight. :applaudit:

What you conservatives fail to realize is that your free market philosophy has directly resulted in Wall Street's corruption and the economic depression this country is descending into. The ultimate result of unregulated Capitolism is monopoly and that destroys the jobs and small businesses that Governor Palin claims to be in favor of.

The Bush Administration's policies were a gross dereliction of the suffering middle class and to argue that a Republican canidate, who agreed with President Bush on 90% of this nation's major issues, is now going to focus his efforts on reviving the middle class is laughable. Palin's only response to the complete catastrophe that has been the last eight years is to not point the finger of blame. In other words we are to forget all the mistakes made by the Republican Administration and simply move forward in hope that we are being lead in the right direction.

Both canidates want to help their country. If you remember, Biden himself said that it is unethical to question the motives of a politician who may disagree with you; question instead their judgement. What seperates Obama and McCain is a fundamental difference in political philosophies. This is not a debatable subject. It is simply deregulation vs. regulation. The republicans have controlled the market for the last eight years and their deregulation has resulted in corruption on Wall Street, liquidation, and economic collapse.

Look at how the liberal economies around the world are fairing. Europe is thriving, the United States is currently neck and neck with Canada, even totalitarian China is doing better than we are when many have argued that a government in complete control of the market could not survive in a world of Capitolism.

Taxes are one of the two certainties in life. I understand that people who earn money want to keep it but the real trouble today is that when an American earns a dollar he thinks it is his dollar. He does not consider the government systems set in place that allow him to earn that dollar and the authority that prevents others from taking his earned dollar.

There is a fundamental difference in political philosophies and that is why Senator Biden has called this the most important election since the 1932 election, following the Great Depression. Which again was another result of a deregulated market that lead to economic strife. America seems to have forgotten that experience. Hopefully this will serve as a rude reminder.

Preacher
10-02-2008, 11:44 PM
Hey Patriot...

please... let go of the liberal talking points and look at reality.

It was decisions made by both parties over 20, 30, 40 years that has caused this problem.

augustashark
10-02-2008, 11:48 PM
What you conservatives fail to realize is that your free market philosophy has directly resulted in Wall Street's corruption and the economic depression this country is descending into. The ultimate result of unregulated Capitolism is monopoly and that destroys the jobs and small businesses that Governor Palin claims to be in favor of.

The Bush Administration's policies were a gross dereliction of the suffering middle class and to argue that a Republican canidate, who agreed with President Bush on 90% of this nation's major issues, is now going to focus his efforts on reviving the middle class is laughable. Palin's only response to the complete catastrophe that has been the last eight years is to not point the finger of blame. In other words we are to forget all the mistakes made by the Republican Administration and simply move forward in hope that we are being lead in the right direction.

Both canidates want to help their country. If you remember, Biden himself said that it is unethical to question the motives of a politician who may disagree with you; question instead their judgement. What seperates Obama and McCain is a fundamental difference in political philosophies. This is not a debatable subject. It is simply deregulation vs. regulation. The republicans have controlled the market for the last eight years and their deregulation has resulted in corruption on Wall Street, liquidation, and economic collapse.

Look at how the liberal economies around the world are fairing. Europe is thriving, the United States is currently neck and neck with Canada, even totalitarian China is doing better than we are when many have argued that a government in complete control of the market could not survive in a world of Capitolism.

Taxes are one of the two certainties in life. I understand that people who earn money want to keep it but the real trouble today is that when an American earns a dollar he thinks it is his dollar. He does not consider the government systems set in place that allow him to earn that dollar and the authority that prevents others from taking his earned dollar.

There is a fundamental difference in political philosophies and that is why Senator Biden has called this the most important election since the 1932 election, following the Great Depression. Which again was another result of a deregulated market that lead to economic strife. America seems to have forgotten that experience. Hopefully this will serve as a rude reminder.


WOW!

Could you be anymore liberal. No wonder they elect lib after lib on the east coast. I don't even know where to start. One word dude SOCIALISM! You are ate up with it.

Mosca
10-02-2008, 11:57 PM
Good night, all.

Leftoverhard
10-03-2008, 12:57 AM
I just got back from the debates and after reading this entire thread, I must put my two cents in.
I'll first state that I was very impressed with Biden. Until tonight, I hadn't been that interested but I have say, he was pretty cool. And Palin? Well, she did great for what she had to do - which was damage control - and she did good. She clearly practiced her little Wasilla butt off and it was clear she had a boatload of notes which was the smartest thing she's done in this election. She did the whole "Oh, Golly "and "Gee" thing a bit much for TV but overall, I think she made her party base feel much better about her.

That said - she never really answered a question. I was impressed by the way Biden showed confidence by giving examples, numbers etc but Sarah was just blowing through line after line of memorized scripts and it showed. She is very good at playing Miss Congeniality (which is ironic) and the way she deflects......woo, the Steelers could use her on defense.

So, as a debater, a fact stater, Palin gets a C- from me. But for effort and charm she gets a B+.
Biden gets Sarah's B+ for his debating and professionalism but his charm and effort are a flat C.

I couldn't help but notice the flap here about the pronunciations.


Spin, spin, spin. Did it ever occur to you that Alaskans may have an accent too?

I've been to Alaska a few times - I can't for the life of me remember anyone even vaguely ever having that accent though.... She has a Fargo accent, a Midwestern accent, she has a Texan accent, she has this "microcosm of America" accent.
I really think she's a cyborg. :cylon:

The nuc-u-lar thing bugs me too but I think if she could change it, she would have. It ties her to Bush which can't be a big help.
And I think Obama is pronouncing Pakistan sort of the way a newscaster in Texas pronounces Burrito - in the originating country's accent. But with a Texas twist? Excessive rolled rrrrrrrr's. Overpronounced vowels.
I don't know, whatever floats their boat.

Vis
10-03-2008, 08:01 AM
The most effective part of the debate was Biden pointing out that McCain isn't really different on policies than Bush. He may have fought his party in years past but he isn't now. If you love Bush that may be ok with you but it won't help McCain win the election. Palin's strategy of just ignoring anything that didn't fit her script hurt on this.

But since I know there are staunch McCain supporters here, and forgetting about the debate, how and where are McCain's policies different from Bush's on Iran, Lebanon, Pakistan, Iraq, taxes, education, health care, the budget, oil, the bailout, the causes of the collapse, anything?

GBMelBlount
10-03-2008, 08:56 AM
The Patriot?

What you conservatives fail to realize is that your free market philosophy has directly resulted in Wall Street's corruption and the economic depression this country is descending into. The ultimate result of unregulated Capitolism is monopoly and that destroys the jobs and small businesses that Governor Palin claims to be in favor of.

That's ridiculous, less government regulation usually creates more competition and results in a better product at a better price. Government imposed regulations create barriers to entry and usually decrease competition, increasing prices. If you want to talk about a monopoly, let's talk about the largest monoploy in the world....The U.S. government. They produce the worst product possible, with the highest price tag imaginable, yet, it is a product I am FORCED to buy. Does that sound right to you?

As far as the cause of this crisis, again, you are completely wrong. The government is at fault here. They created and run Fannie & Freddie which is the cause of all of these problems. Fannie & Freddie tampered with the natural ebb and flow of free markets and allowed lenders to use “other people’s money” to fund their loans instead of having to use their own. If it was the lenders’ money, they would have been much more careful and we wouldn’t have this government created catastrophe, which as usual is blamed on capitalism and greed. This is why government fails at everything they do. Because all of their social engineering programs use other peoples’ money through taxes they collect from you and me so they are less careful than those who are forced to use their own money or to live within their means as you and I are forced to.

Your third assumption that is completely wrong is that greed and corruption are a result of capitalism and free markets. That’s ridiculous, naïve, and smacks of class envy. Greed and corruption is human nature, it is not a byproduct of capitalism, as marxists would have you believe. What is my point? Simply that those that now have been put in charge of “reigning in and controlling” the “problems” created by capitalism, are inherently greedy and corrupt as well. What I am saying is that the fox in charge of the hen house, is far more corrupt. At least with capitalism and free markets there is a natural ebb and flow and correction mechanism, with government, there isn’t. Once the governemnt gets their greedy and corrupt hands on something, they will NEVER let go.

The Patriot?
The Bush Administration's policies were a gross dereliction of the suffering middle class

What policies? Lower taxes and letting the people keep what they earn? You’re reaching and you’re wrong. Stop blaming capitalism and freedom for the plight of the middle class. You’re embarrassing yourself. Also, I’d like to hear, what specifically Bush has done to hurt the “suffering” middle class? I would like to discuss this because what will come to light is that the majority of the problems the middle class is suffering is due to liberal policies, NOT Bush and the conservative policies this country was founded on.

I can guarantee you Obama WILL, if elected, implement his trillion dollar tax increase which will possibly cripple this country. However, when was the last time a democrat actually gave the middle class the tax cut they ALWAYS run on? Sure, Clinton ran and won on that false promise, and Obama probably will too, but when was the last time it happened? Funny how the middle class never talks about that.

stlrtruck
10-03-2008, 09:06 AM
After watching the debate I have to say I'd call it a draw.

I was impressed with Palin's ability to hold her own and her dialogue is more humanistic than politician. There were a few times when she deflected the question and went on some tangents which bothered me.

For Biden, I was impressed with his ability to stay more focused on the questions at hand than some of the deflections that Palin brought out. However, he grated on my nerves when he started pointing back to the Bush administration. It sounded like a "scare-tactic" instead of a debate.

Overall, neither of them really said anything to damage themselves or the other.

I would like to see a debate where the candidates or their running mates go to an open arena and then the general public, in an organized fashion, gets to ask them questions about their policies and stances. Forget the pre-existing questions, take the shots in the gut and see who is standing and none of this generality, vague answering crap. If a person asks about your policy on foreign diplomacy you better have a detailed answer about it. As for scoring, we'll have a democrat score the republicans and a republican score the democrats. Points for and points against. For example, if a candidate gives a valid answer and gives great detail they can multiple points for giving precise answers but if they fail to answer the question at hand, they have points deducted.

X-Terminator
10-03-2008, 09:21 AM
What you conservatives fail to realize is that your free market philosophy has directly resulted in Wall Street's corruption and the economic depression this country is descending into. The ultimate result of unregulated Capitolism is monopoly and that destroys the jobs and small businesses that Governor Palin claims to be in favor of.

The Bush Administration's policies were a gross dereliction of the suffering middle class and to argue that a Republican canidate, who agreed with President Bush on 90% of this nation's major issues, is now going to focus his efforts on reviving the middle class is laughable. Palin's only response to the complete catastrophe that has been the last eight years is to not point the finger of blame. In other words we are to forget all the mistakes made by the Republican Administration and simply move forward in hope that we are being lead in the right direction.

Both canidates want to help their country. If you remember, Biden himself said that it is unethical to question the motives of a politician who may disagree with you; question instead their judgement. What seperates Obama and McCain is a fundamental difference in political philosophies. This is not a debatable subject. It is simply deregulation vs. regulation. The republicans have controlled the market for the last eight years and their deregulation has resulted in corruption on Wall Street, liquidation, and economic collapse.

Look at how the liberal economies around the world are fairing. Europe is thriving, the United States is currently neck and neck with Canada, even totalitarian China is doing better than we are when many have argued that a government in complete control of the market could not survive in a world of Capitolism.

Taxes are one of the two certainties in life. I understand that people who earn money want to keep it but the real trouble today is that when an American earns a dollar he thinks it is his dollar. He does not consider the government systems set in place that allow him to earn that dollar and the authority that prevents others from taking his earned dollar.

There is a fundamental difference in political philosophies and that is why Senator Biden has called this the most important election since the 1932 election, following the Great Depression. Which again was another result of a deregulated market that lead to economic strife. America seems to have forgotten that experience. Hopefully this will serve as a rude reminder.

Scary stuff here.

You say Europe is thriving, but have you seen their unemployment rates over there? In some countries, it's double-digits. And here, we're worried about it being 6%. Sorry, but I do NOT want the government having complete, or even moderate, control over our lives and our economy. These guys piss away money like crazy (see the "bailout package") and you want to give MORE power to them? Thanks, but no thanks.

RunWillieRun
10-03-2008, 09:23 AM
What you conservatives fail to realize is that your free market philosophy has directly resulted in Wall Street's corruption and the economic depression this country is descending into. The ultimate result of unregulated Capitolism is monopoly and that destroys the jobs and small businesses that Governor Palin claims to be in favor of.

The Bush Administration's policies were a gross dereliction of the suffering middle class and to argue that a Republican canidate, who agreed with President Bush on 90% of this nation's major issues, is now going to focus his efforts on reviving the middle class is laughable. Palin's only response to the complete catastrophe that has been the last eight years is to not point the finger of blame. In other words we are to forget all the mistakes made by the Republican Administration and simply move forward in hope that we are being lead in the right direction.

Both canidates want to help their country. If you remember, Biden himself said that it is unethical to question the motives of a politician who may disagree with you; question instead their judgement. What seperates Obama and McCain is a fundamental difference in political philosophies. This is not a debatable subject. It is simply deregulation vs. regulation. The republicans have controlled the market for the last eight years and their deregulation has resulted in corruption on Wall Street, liquidation, and economic collapse.

Look at how the liberal economies around the world are fairing. Europe is thriving, the United States is currently neck and neck with Canada, even totalitarian China is doing better than we are when many have argued that a government in complete control of the market could not survive in a world of Capitolism.

Taxes are one of the two certainties in life. I understand that people who earn money want to keep it but the real trouble today is that when an American earns a dollar he thinks it is his dollar. He does not consider the government systems set in place that allow him to earn that dollar and the authority that prevents others from taking his earned dollar.

There is a fundamental difference in political philosophies and that is why Senator Biden has called this the most important election since the 1932 election, following the Great Depression. Which again was another result of a deregulated market that lead to economic strife. America seems to have forgotten that experience. Hopefully this will serve as a rude reminder.

Blame Bush!!!

You seem to forget that it was the policies of the democrats pushing for more subprime lenders in the name of "equality" that got us into this mess...not to mention the democrats were AGAINST regulation of Freddie and Fannie.

So I guess they are only in favor of regulation when it doesn't hurt their political cash flow?

But hey, you want to live in socialism, fine by me.

Those 12% unemployment rates in Europe are oh-so appealing!

The dems think everything has to be fair in this world...why? What is wrong with people who work hard getting to keep their money? Sounds fair to me.

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 09:25 AM
The bottom line is simple: The left opened it's mouth and inserted it's foot. They tore her down and ripped her up, and lowered the bar so much that if she did anything more than slobber all over herself and actually fit the depictions they were spouting off she'd come out okay. But she did more than hold her own against a 35 year veteran beltway insider. She showed poise and a grasp of the issues. She was fiesty without being rude or condescending. She was folksy ina way I don't think I've ever seen a candidate for this high of an office. She came off as real and genuine. Most importantly, she appeared calm and cool and confident, and appeared to "know her stuff".

Had the media and politicos just STFU about her, instead of tearing her down, this would not have been any great shakes, but because they cast her in such a bad light, and she actually presented herself so well, this was a massive blow to the Obama/Biden ticket. They lowered the bar, and she cleared it by 20 feet.

RunWillieRun
10-03-2008, 09:29 AM
That's ridiculous, less government regulation usually creates more competition and results in a better product at a better price. Government imposed regulations create barriers to entry and usually decrease competition, increasing prices.

As far as the cause of this crisis, again, you are completely wrong. The government is at fault here. They created and run Fannie & Freddie which is the cause of all of these problems. Fannie & Freddie tampered with the natural ebb and flow of free markets and allowed lenders to use “other people’s money” to fund their loans instead of having to use their own. If it was the lenders’ money, they would have been much more careful and we wouldn’t have this government created catastrophe, which as usual is blamed on capitalism and greed. This is why government fails at everything they do. Because all of their social engineering programs use other peoples’ money through taxes they collect from you and me so they are less careful than those who are forced to use their own money or to live within their means as you and I are forced to.

Your third assumption that is completely wrong is that greed and corruption are a result of capitalism and free markets. That’s ridiculous, naïve, and smacks of class envy. Greed and corruption is human nature, it is not a byproduct of capitalism, as marxists would have you believe. What is my point? Simply that those that now have been put in charge of “reigning in and controlling” the “problems” created by capitalism, are inherently greedy and corrupt as well. What I am saying is that the fox in charge of the hen house, is far more corrupt. At least with capitalism and free markets there is a natural ebb and flow and correction mechanism, with government, there isn’t. Once the governemnt gets their greedy and corrupt hands on something, they will NEVER let go.



What policies? Lower taxes and letting the people keep what they earn? You’re reaching and you’re wrong. Stop blaming capitalism and freedom for the plight of the middle class. You’re embarrassing yourself. Also, I’d like to hear, what specifically Bush has done to hurt the “suffering” middle class? I would like to discuss this because what will come to light is that the majority of the problems the middle class is suffering is due to liberal policies, NOT Bush and the conservative policies this country was founded on.

I can guarantee you Obama WILL, if elected, implement his trillion dollar tax increase which will possibly cripple this country. However, when was the last time a democrat actually gave the middle class the tax cut they ALWAYS run on? Sure, Clinton ran and won on that false promise, and Obama probably will too, but when was the last time it happened? Funny how the middle class never talks about that.


:drink:

Excellent post...The idea that capitalism itself is to blame for this country's economic situation is downright false and undeniably scary.

Mosca
10-03-2008, 09:48 AM
Remember, if you're already for either one, then it's all back-slapping. FYI, Fox News' poll has it 59-41 for Biden. Not everyone liked the winking, the dropped "g"s at the end of words, the canned answers, and the refusal to answer questions and lack of specifics. It seems that Palin might have helped herself, but she didn't help the ticket.

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 09:52 AM
Remember, if you're already for either one, then it's all back-slapping. FYI, Fox News' poll has it 59-41 for Biden. Not everyone liked the winking, the dropped "g"s at the end of words, the canned answers, and the refusal to answer questions and lack of specifics. It seems that Palin might have helped herself, but she didn't help the ticket.

Really? I though he came off as kind of a creep...and remember, I'm no Palin fan. I thought she looked pretty good for a bumbling nincompoop.

X-Terminator
10-03-2008, 10:05 AM
You know what really kills me? The absolute elitist attitude toward Palin. It's kind of sad that we've come to a point in this country where an average American is looked down upon as uneducated and stupid just because he or she doesn't speak as well as some other politicians. After all of the hand-wringing and disdain for "career politicians" being out of touch with the average American, here we have an actual average American selected as a candidate for VP, and all people can do is tear her down.

And again, keep in mind that I am NOT a Palin fan in the least. But I sure as hell am not going to cut on her because she drops g's from words or can't pronounce "nuclear" properly.

GBMelBlount
10-03-2008, 10:16 AM
You know what really kills me? The absolute elitist attitude toward Palin. It's kind of sad that we've come to a point in this country where an average American is looked down upon as uneducated and stupid just because he or she doesn't speak as well as some other politicians. After all of the hand-wringing and disdain for "career politicians" being out of touch with the average American, here we have an actual average American selected as a candidate for VP, and all people can do is tear her down.

And again, keep in mind that I am NOT a Palin fan in the least. But I sure as hell am not going to cut on her because she drops g's from words or can't pronounce "nuclear" properly.

It has ALWAYS been a tactic of the left wing media to portray the conservatives as bumbling idiots because they have a better chance of winning that way, rather than if they focused on impartially educating people on the issues. For instance, the media NEVER stopped promoting Quayle as an idiot because of how he spelled potato. Imagine what would be happening right now if McCain had said there were 57 states in our country....Conversely, if Palin was the democratic VP candidate and had liberal views, the media would be having a lovefest with her right now. This is not even arguable imo.

As I have been saying for months, this election process has from day one, and will continue to, play out EXACTLY as the left wing media has scripted it.

Mosca
10-03-2008, 10:20 AM
You know what really kills me? The absolute elitist attitude toward Palin. It's kind of sad that we've come to a point in this country where an average American is looked down upon as uneducated and stupid just because he or she doesn't speak as well as some other politicians. After all of the hand-wringing and disdain for "career politicians" being out of touch with the average American, here we have an actual average American selected as a candidate for VP, and all people can do is tear her down.

And again, keep in mind that I am NOT a Palin fan in the least. But I sure as hell am not going to cut on her because she drops g's from words or can't pronounce "nuclear" properly.

I wasn't cutting on her for nucular, not her specifically. I would cut on ANY public figure that did it, because that is a pet peeve of mine. And the dropping of the "g"s was calculated. Go find the Youtube videos of her sportscasts from 20 years ago; her diction is perfect.

I think that it's far more dangerous to believe that just about anyone could step in and do the job. Give me my elites, because as high an opinion I have of myself, I KNOW my ass would pucker well before anyone even asked me what to do next. Whatever I think about McCain's politics, I am happy to have him as an "elite" politically.

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 10:26 AM
It's sometimes too easy to discredit conservatives...not to belabor the points i'm making in another thread, but when someone clings to fantasical beliefs (like humans and dinosaurs living together), that fuels the fires...

Mosca
10-03-2008, 10:26 AM
It has ALWAYS been a tactic of the left wing media to portray the conservatives as bumbling idiots because they have a better chance of winning that way, rather than if they focused on impartially educating people on the issues. For instance, the media NEVER stopped promoting Quayle as an idiot because of how he spelled potato. Imagine what would be happening right now if McCain had said there were 57 states in our country....Conversely, if Palin was the democratic VP candidate and had liberal views, the media would be having a lovefest with her right now. This is not even arguable imo.

This election process, from day one, has played out EXACTLY as the left wing media has scripted it.

Oh hell, do you want me to go find a lefty who says "nucular" and cut on that person, too? Because I will, if that's what it takes to show that the comment wasn't due to her being the Republican conservative candidate.

What I think is that all this overreaction is hypersensitivity and mock indignation. Because it was coincidentally your candidate that I criticized for something that I find grating no matter who says it, you extrapolate that to far more meaning than I gave it. The charge of "bumbling idiot" was raised by YOU, and extrapolated to ME... and in turn I, who remember is just some schmoe with a keyboard, have now become the left wing media with an agenda!

In other words, you have become exactly who you scorn; you are whining about imagined offenses where there are none. The lady says "nucular". It bugs me. That's all I meant. Get over it. Hell, Bush 2 says nucular and I voted for him (once).

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 10:31 AM
We're really splitting hairs here now...

Just a quick check...Drudge has Palin winning like 70/30, MSNBC and CNN have her losing like 4/1...I think the only thing we can safely take away from all this is that all these straw polls are wildly inaccurate at best...

Mosca
10-03-2008, 10:32 AM
Really? I though he came off as kind of a creep...and remember, I'm no Palin fan. I thought she looked pretty good for a bumbling nincompoop.

I'm only reporting the facts. I was as surprised to see it, especially at Fox, as you are.

My uncritical eye the day after is the same as it was last night; as soon as everyone realized that there wasn't going to be blood and gore and a disaster that they needed to be able to talk about the next day at work, they tuned out or changed the channel. It became another ho-hum VP debate, and whoever was for this guy or that gal stayed the same, and the undecideds called their friends or went to the store or watched something else.

X-Terminator
10-03-2008, 10:32 AM
I wasn't cutting on her for nucular, not her specifically. I would cut on ANY public figure that did it, because that is a pet peeve of mine. And the dropping of the "g"s was calculated. Go find the Youtube videos of her sportscasts from 20 years ago; her diction is perfect.

I think that it's far more dangerous to believe that just about anyone could step in and do the job. Give me my elites, because as high an opinion I have of myself, I KNOW my ass would pucker well before anyone even asked me what to do next. Whatever I think about McCain's politics, I am happy to have him as an "elite" politically.

I didn't say that anyone could step in and do the job - I know I could never do it because I'm too honest and too much of a straight-shooter, which would automatically get a thumbs down from a lot of people. My point was more that this kind of stuff is minutia - it doesn't matter if one can or can't speak well, it has absolutely no bearing on how well they can run a city, state, country, as well as the apparent notion that because she's from a small town in Alaska, governor of a little less than 700,000 people, that she should automatically be disqualified. That's about as elitist as it gets. If that's the case, we shouldn't ever consider anyone from New Mexico, Montana or Idaho, because there aren't a whole lot of people living in those states either.

Vis
10-03-2008, 10:39 AM
You know what really kills me? The absolute elitist attitude toward Palin. It's kind of sad that we've come to a point in this country where an average American is looked down upon as uneducated and stupid just because he or she doesn't speak as well as some other politicians. After all of the hand-wringing and disdain for "career politicians" being out of touch with the average American, here we have an actual average American selected as a candidate for VP, and all people can do is tear her down.

And again, keep in mind that I am NOT a Palin fan in the least. But I sure as hell am not going to cut on her because she drops g's from words or can't pronounce "nuclear" properly.

What kills me is the claim that not being brilliant is a virtue. I want the best and the brightest in the White House. i want our leader to be smarter than their leader. I don't want someone at my level or lower. The "average" American should want the "best" American in charge.

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 10:40 AM
The best and the brightest, the cream of the crop of the Ivy League are the same dudes who just ran Wall Street into the ground.

They don't need to be the best, they just need to be right for the job.

GBMelBlount
10-03-2008, 10:42 AM
Oh hell, do you want me to go find a lefty who says "nucular" and cut on that person, too? Because I will, if that's what it takes to show that the comment wasn't due to her being the Republican conservative candidate.

What I think is that all this overreaction is hypersensitivity and mock indignation. Because it was coincidentally your candidate that I criticized for something that I find grating no matter who says it, you extrapolate that to far more meaning than I gave it. The charge of "bumbling idiot" was raised by YOU, and extrapolated to ME... and in turn I, who remember is just some schmoe with a keyboard, have now become the left wing media with an agenda!

In other words, you have become exactly who you scorn; you are whining about imagined offenses where there are none. The lady says "nucular". It bugs me. That's all I meant. Get over it. Hell, Bush 2 says nucular and I voted for him (once).

Mosca, I have no problem whatsoever ever with the fact that you simply pointed that out. But my point about obvious left wing bias reporting by the main stream media, and how it is influencing the course of this election process from start to finish is still valid and I believe that I am correct. I don't feel that I am whining. This is something I will gladly discuss further if you'd like.

Leftoverhard
10-03-2008, 10:43 AM
Blame Bush!!!

OK. I will. But let me ask you a question. Were you a Bush fan? Did he let you down? Your views lead me to believe (and I hate to assume but by reading your posts, I have a lot to go on) that you would have voted for Bush in the past 2 elections. So, it's not going to be that easy for you to just drop your guy like that and pretend we're starting fresh with McCain/Palin. In my opinion, all of the people who voted for Bush have some serious explaining to do if they want to be taken seriously about anything having to do with this election.

See this quote here:

But hey, you want to live in socialism, fine by me.

Quotes like this aren't taken with even the smallest grain of salt, especially these days - you'll have to do better than yelling "commies!" whenever you have nothing compelling or factual to say.

Those 12% unemployment rates in Europe are oh-so appealing!

And ours is what, 6%. Except here in the US, there are a lot of people who carry 2 or 3 jobs. The way we "count" this is by checking how many people there are and then counting how many jobs there are - basically. Except that they count your jobs (if you have 3) but the person only counts as one - so for every extra job (of your 2 or 3) a jobless person gets assigned one of yours. Not a very accurate way of counting. You could call that optimistic I guess. My source for this information is from Jim Hightower's (RIP) book - There's Nothing In The Middle Of The Road etc.......

The dems think everything has to be fair in this world...why? What is wrong with people who work hard getting to keep their money? Sounds fair to me.

So in your Perfect World, you work, you keep all your money, you spend it all on a lifetime supply of something fun, I'll say CocoPuffs - but one day you notice that your neighbors (you know, right next door) are eating rabbits they caught and selling their youngest daughter and you go ask why and they say - we got sick and couldn't work anymore and spent all our money on Fruit Loops instead of getting the roads fixed but now those are gone too and the kids are useless because they don't go to school anymore because the bus won't come to this part of town because of the roads and people like to use the bus for target practice with all those guns that were handed out to us as bribes during the last election. So, you go lock yourself in your house and eat your cereal frantically because God forbid - you might actually have to share with someone.

Or, if you don't like that one, how about when The Steelers play the Jags, let's send Big Ben out there by himself - better yet, let's get rid of all those useless, good for nothing other guys on the O and give their pay to Ben. He'll play better won't he? If he works hard, he'll surely blow that D away.

So, you say, those are pretty extreme examples. Maybe, but you need to do some research and understand what's wrong about your argument of Working Hard and Keeping All My Money. What if you don't work hard? What if you just inherited the money? What if you can't work hard? What if you're born without arms? Or brains? Or patience? Or parents? The absolute lie that everyone is given the same opportunities is not only unfortunate but dangerous.

Vis
10-03-2008, 10:46 AM
The best and the brightest, the cream of the crop of the Ivy League are the same dudes who just ran Wall Street into the ground.

They don't need to be the best, they just need to be right for the job.

But they did well for themselves. Being smart wasn't the danger, being left to their own cutthroat devices was the issue. Your argument seems to be that you want someone not smart enough to hurt you. I would argue you've been hurt more by incompetent bungling.

X-Terminator
10-03-2008, 10:49 AM
What kills me is the claim that not being brilliant is a virtue. I want the best and the brightest in the White House. i want our leader to be smarter than their leader. I don't want someone at my level or lower. The "average" American should want the "best" American in charge.

I don't believe I said that. I said that because someone may or may not speak well doesn't automatically mean he or she is stupid or uneducated. It's a ridiculous and elitist notion, plain and simple. I work for Carnegie Mellon's School of Computer Science, and you wouldn't believe how poorly some of the professors and students here speak and write, and they're among the brightest people in the world. Does that diminish their intelligence? Not on your life.

Leftoverhard
10-03-2008, 10:58 AM
Mosca, I have no problem whatsoever ever with the fact that you simply pointed that out. But my point about obvious left wing bias reporting by the main stream media, and how it is influencing the course of this election process from start to finish is still valid and I believe that I am correct. I don't feel that I am whining. This is something I will gladly discuss further if you'd like.


But GBMel, the left wing thinks the media is biased by the right. We're all equally paranoid that we're getting the shaft from these fools. Hey! I have an idea, you can have left-wing media but we want voter fraud. That way, maybe we'll have a chance this time. These last two elections, the left wing media could have had Bush on camera hanging out with Bin Laden doing drugs with strippers at his wife's Birthday and he still would have somehow won.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.

Mosca
10-03-2008, 10:58 AM
Mosca, I have no problem whatsoever ever with the fact that you simply pointed that out. But my point about obvious left wing bias reporting by the main stream media, and how it is influencing the course of this election process from start to finish is still valid and I believe that I am correct. I don't feel that I am whining. This is something I will gladly discuss further if you'd like.

I personally think that the concept of media left wing bias is crap. When Clinton got his knickers in a knot, they were all over him. The press had no problem reporting on Hillary's Whitewater and Travelgate travails, and what about all the last minute pardons? The fact that everyone knows about them is evidence of that! When Carter fumbled everything he touched, they were merciless. The press loved Nixon, until Watergate. They hated Lyndon Johnson. They adored Eisenhower. Reagan certainly got a free pass, except of course for that Iran/Contra thing; but a truly impartial press would probably have downplayed that, wouldn't they have?

The traditional role of the press in America is to hold the government accountable. Because this happens to be a Republican government, and also a particularly bad one, it must certainly seem like bias to you. But my belief is that "left wing media bias" is a case of it being screamed at you so loudly and so often that you believe it to be true.

GBMelBlount
10-03-2008, 11:38 AM
I personally think that the concept of media left wing bias is crap. When Clinton got his knickers in a knot, they were all over him.

It is not crap. It's true. It's funny that people act like FOX is extremely biased. they are the most fair and balanced of the major networks. Their viewership is the best balance of democrats and republicans. The left wing media is farther left than FOX is right and I doubt you will find much to prove otherwise.

GBMelBlount
10-03-2008, 11:39 AM
But GBMel, the left wing thinks the media is biased by the right. We're all equally paranoid that we're getting the shaft from these fools. Hey! I have an idea, you can have left-wing media but we want voter fraud. That way, maybe we'll have a chance this time. These last two elections, the left wing media could have had Bush on camera hanging out with Bin Laden doing drugs with strippers at his wife's Birthday and he still would have somehow won.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.

The left wing media is farther left than Fox is to the right and I doubt you will find much to disprove that. :thumbsup:

MACH1
10-03-2008, 12:11 PM
But GBMel, the left wing thinks the media is biased by the right. We're all equally paranoid that we're getting the shaft from these fools. Hey! I have an idea, you can have left-wing media but we want voter fraud. That way, maybe we'll have a chance this time. These last two elections, the left wing media could have had Bush on camera hanging out with Bin Laden doing drugs with strippers at his wife's Birthday and he still would have somehow won.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.

Are you high. What are you smoking.

RunWillieRun
10-03-2008, 12:33 PM
OK. I will. But let me ask you a question. Were you a Bush fan? Did he let you down? Your views lead me to believe (and I hate to assume but by reading your posts, I have a lot to go on) that you would have voted for Bush in the past 2 elections. So, it's not going to be that easy for you to just drop your guy like that and pretend we're starting fresh with McCain/Palin. In my opinion, all of the people who voted for Bush have some serious explaining to do if they want to be taken seriously about anything having to do with this election.[/QUOTE]

WOW...what a statement. Everyone who voted for Bush can't be taken seriously without explaining themselves? What about people who support a man (Obama) who had known ties to a terrorist (Ayers) and a radical anti-American reverend? (Who only denounced him when it became a political liablity)

I don't personally like much of what Bush has done, but I don't solely blame him for every one of our country's problems like so many others. People have a hard time seeing past their hatred of Bush to see that he actually wanted regulation of Freddie and Fannie.




[QUOTE=Leftoverhard;447313]Quotes like this aren't taken with even the smallest grain of salt, especially these days - you'll have to do better than yelling "commies!" whenever you have nothing compelling or factual to say.

I guess we should just listen to Biden, "Its not wealth redistribution, its fairness."

:banging:



So in your Perfect World, you work, you keep all your money, you spend it all on a lifetime supply of something fun, I'll say CocoPuffs - but one day you notice that your neighbors (you know, right next door) are eating rabbits they caught and selling their youngest daughter and you go ask why and they say - we got sick and couldn't work anymore and spent all our money on Fruit Loops instead of getting the roads fixed but now those are gone too and the kids are useless because they don't go to school anymore because the bus won't come to this part of town because of the roads and people like to use the bus for target practice with all those guns that were handed out to us as bribes during the last election. So, you go lock yourself in your house and eat your cereal frantically because God forbid - you might actually have to share with someone.

Or, if you don't like that one, how about when The Steelers play the Jags, let's send Big Ben out there by himself - better yet, let's get rid of all those useless, good for nothing other guys on the O and give their pay to Ben. He'll play better won't he? If he works hard, he'll surely blow that D away.

So, you say, those are pretty extreme examples. Maybe, but you need to do some research and understand what's wrong about your argument of Working Hard and Keeping All My Money. What if you don't work hard? What if you just inherited the money? What if you can't work hard? What if you're born without arms? Or brains? Or patience? Or parents? The absolute lie that everyone is given the same opportunities is not only unfortunate but dangerous.



Wow...you are absurd. Way to reach and misrepresent what I said (I guess it is to be expected).

Where did it say keeping ALL of your money? Please, show me. Of course you need taxes for a variety of different reasons but to tax small, medium and large buisness owners to the extreme like Obama suggests will only decrease the amount of capital these businesses have to reinvest in their companies and grow jobs and the economy.

Another way is to tax heavily and just give the money out without growing the economy. I choose the former.

RunWillieRun
10-03-2008, 12:37 PM
But GBMel, the left wing thinks the media is biased by the right. We're all equally paranoid that we're getting the shaft from these fools. Hey! I have an idea, you can have left-wing media but we want voter fraud. That way, maybe we'll have a chance this time. These last two elections, the left wing media could have had Bush on camera hanging out with Bin Laden doing drugs with strippers at his wife's Birthday and he still would have somehow won.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.

:rofl:

Speaking of voter fraud, how many times has ACORN been involved in voter fraud?

Mosca
10-03-2008, 12:40 PM
OK, here is an example for you, of how someone's personal bias affects how they see something.

I just finished a really good book, one that I would highly recommend; A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Big Horn - The Last Great Battle of the American West (http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Glory-Custer-Bighorn-American/dp/0316155780/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223051217&sr=8-1). It was written entirely based on original documents, and IMO it is probably the most fair and balanced account of Custer and the Indian wars of the late 1800s as I have ever read; in a 500 page book, fully 100 pages are footnotes! 20%! It carrys no pro-Indian bias, no pro-cavalry; it simply gives the reasons why Indians acted as they did, and why the US Government acted as they did; both did some things right, and both did some things wrong.

Nevertheless; if you go to Amazon.com, and I provided the link above, you will find some reviews criticizing the book, including this:

Personally, I don't believe Custer walked on water as the author would led us to believe. Also from my extensive research, the author's description of the characters involved was very misleading and inaccurate. For instance, Capt. Benteen knew the difference between a lousy commander and a good one, which explains his mistrust and dislike of Custer. Also for every historical source that stated Custer was popular with his troops, there are ten other sources that states the opposite. Moreover, much of Custer's glorified military record during the Civil War was contrived at best. Let's face it, Custer was very apt at blowing his own horn, while kissing up to his superiors. Generally, I was hoping for a more balanced account, which wasn't forthcoming.

Well, I read the book. And from reading it, I got all the things that the reviewer says were disregarded; that Benteen knew a good commander from a bad commander, that Custer was not a popular officer, and that Custer's Civil War record was open to doubt. In other words, the reviewer rips the book because it doesn't have an anti-Custer bias, but rather presents the facts for the reader to decide!

In all my media reading and watching life, I have always found the press ready to gore whatever ox managed to reach the top of the heap, and do it as bloodily as they could.

Vis
10-03-2008, 01:07 PM
Mosca, who wrote the "original documents"?

Vis
10-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Having not read all 14 pages of this thread I don't know the answer but are there any undecideds posting? I'm an Obama supporter and think Palin spouts talking points between Gomer Pylisms. McCain supporters love her. But was anyone swayed?

HometownGal
10-03-2008, 02:29 PM
The bottom line is simple: The left opened it's mouth and inserted it's foot. They tore her down and ripped her up, and lowered the bar so much that if she did anything more than slobber all over herself and actually fit the depictions they were spouting off she'd come out okay. But she did more than hold her own against a 35 year veteran beltway insider. She showed poise and a grasp of the issues. She was fiesty without being rude or condescending. She was folksy ina way I don't think I've ever seen a candidate for this high of an office. She came off as real and genuine. Most importantly, she appeared calm and cool and confident, and appeared to "know her stuff".

Had the media and politicos just STFU about her, instead of tearing her down, this would not have been any great shakes, but because they cast her in such a bad light, and she actually presented herself so well, this was a massive blow to the Obama/Biden ticket. They lowered the bar, and she cleared it by 20 feet.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Couldn't have said it any better revs. :drink:

Vis
10-03-2008, 03:18 PM
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1185304443/bctid1832907349

stlrtruck
10-03-2008, 03:32 PM
But was anyone swayed?

Not one bit. As I stated earlier I saw no clear cut winner in last nights debate. Maybe the next two presidential debates will provide better answers.

revefsreleets
10-03-2008, 04:18 PM
I see yahoo has declared Biden the winner. Seen that a couple other places, too. My guess is, after having rammed down our throats how stupid Palin is, and finding out she's not, the left is going with the philosophy of "Move along, nothing to see here".

The Patriot
10-03-2008, 04:23 PM
That's ridiculous, less government regulation usually creates more competition and results in a better product at a better price. Government imposed regulations create barriers to entry and usually decrease competition, increasing prices. If you want to talk about a monopoly, let's talk about the largest monoploy in the world....The U.S. government. They produce the worst product possible, with the highest price tag imaginable, yet, it is a product I am FORCED to buy. Does that sound right to you?

As far as the cause of this crisis, again, you are completely wrong. The government is at fault here. They created and run Fannie & Freddie which is the cause of all of these problems. Fannie & Freddie tampered with the natural ebb and flow of free markets and allowed lenders to use “other people’s money” to fund their loans instead of having to use their own. If it was the lenders’ money, they would have been much more careful and we wouldn’t have this government created catastrophe, which as usual is blamed on capitalism and greed. This is why government fails at everything they do. Because all of their social engineering programs use other peoples’ money through taxes they collect from you and me so they are less careful than those who are forced to use their own money or to live within their means as you and I are forced to.

Your third assumption that is completely wrong is that greed and corruption are a result of capitalism and free markets. That’s ridiculous, naïve, and smacks of class envy. Greed and corruption is human nature, it is not a byproduct of capitalism, as marxists would have you believe. What is my point? Simply that those that now have been put in charge of “reigning in and controlling” the “problems” created by capitalism, are inherently greedy and corrupt as well. What I am saying is that the fox in charge of the hen house, is far more corrupt. At least with capitalism and free markets there is a natural ebb and flow and correction mechanism, with government, there isn’t. Once the governemnt gets their greedy and corrupt hands on something, they will NEVER let go.



What policies? Lower taxes and letting the people keep what they earn? You’re reaching and you’re wrong. Stop blaming capitalism and freedom for the plight of the middle class. You’re embarrassing yourself. Also, I’d like to hear, what specifically Bush has done to hurt the “suffering” middle class? I would like to discuss this because what will come to light is that the majority of the problems the middle class is suffering is due to liberal policies, NOT Bush and the conservative policies this country was founded on.

I can guarantee you Obama WILL, if elected, implement his trillion dollar tax increase which will possibly cripple this country. However, when was the last time a democrat actually gave the middle class the tax cut they ALWAYS run on? Sure, Clinton ran and won on that false promise, and Obama probably will too, but when was the last time it happened? Funny how the middle class never talks about that.

First of all let's get one thing straight. I am not blaming Capitalism for these problems. You and I both agree that capitalism creates competition but like every competition, a winner and a loser is the result and when the winner has monopolized the market, progress stops. That is why the government must walk the fine line of moderating competition. Take the National Bell Telephone Company for instance. They had monopolized the industry so the government split them apart, allowing smaller companies to compete and this competition resulted in the rapid evolution of cellphone technology over the past decade.

I am not against competition, I am against monopoly and to claim that I do not support 'freedom' is just immature.

The middle class is suffering from economic problems that have resulted from poor decisions made by both parties over the past 20 years and burdening a 600 billion dollar war in Iraq is not helping. The wealthiest 5% in this country, pulling in over 250 thousand dollars a year, are being taxed close to the same amount that they were being taxed during the Clinton adminstration, despite this costly war. Gas prices are record high yet Oil Companies are making record high profits and McCain wants to give them a 2 billion dollar tax break?

Obama's plan makes more sense; leave the middle class alone and start taxing the wealthiest 5% and reducing tax breaks for Oil Companies that have already shipped their jobs overseas. Unless you are pulling in 250k a year, you won't need to worry about the government's "greedy and corrupt hands" digging into your pocket. The wealthy need to start pulling their share of the load and if you tax them then they'll think twice before loaning money that doesn't exist.

Mosca
10-03-2008, 04:28 PM
Mosca, who wrote the "original documents"?

Read the book, it's great. There are 100 pages of footnotes; they are collected from contemporary accounts, from interviews with Indians who fought in the battle (many of whom lived into the 1920s), Custer's widow (who lived until 1933), officers and men from Reno's and Benteen's command who survived the battle, from transcripts of the Court of Inquiry, from accounts of people who were friends and relatives of the dead and of the survivors of the battle. The scope of sources is vast; again, fully 1/5th of the book is notes on the sources. I invite anyone to read the book, follow the footnotes, and decide for themselves.

But the point is that while most reviewers laud the book for its balance, there are a few who believe it to be biased, because it does not agree with their own bias. And that is my point about the claims of liberal media bias. What I see from those making the claim is that they complain when the press rides their guys, and they also complain when the press rides the other guys, because they don't think they're riding them hard enough! From where I sit, everyone gets ridden about the same, when their turn comes up.

Hines0wnz
10-06-2008, 12:01 AM
Biden didnt "win" and Palin didnt "lose." How surprising is it that the liberal media calls Biden the winner? Not at all. He had as many facts wrong including just outright BS information as Palin did. That doesnt excuse either one of them but Biden should know better. People bag on Palin for being less than smart/dumb/a redneck, etc. yet Biden just distorts known information (they all do).

Biden is the reason I am still undecided.

Preacher
10-06-2008, 12:04 AM
Read the book, it's great. There are 100 pages of footnotes; they are collected from contemporary accounts, from interviews with Indians who fought in the battle (many of whom lived into the 1920s), Custer's widow (who lived until 1933), officers and men from Reno's and Benteen's command who survived the battle, from transcripts of the Court of Inquiry, from accounts of people who were friends and relatives of the dead and of the survivors of the battle. The scope of sources is vast; again, fully 1/5th of the book is notes on the sources. I invite anyone to read the book, follow the footnotes, and decide for themselves.

But the point is that while most reviewers laud the book for its balance, there are a few who believe it to be biased, because it does not agree with their own bias. And that is my point about the claims of liberal media bias. What I see from those making the claim is that they complain when the press rides their guys, and they also complain when the press rides the other guys, because they don't think they're riding them hard enough! From where I sit, everyone gets ridden about the same, when their turn comes up.

But there is the catch. Who chooses who's turn it is? The press. We could very well be hearing about so many things concerning the Dem ticket, but instead, all we hear is about Palin. Why? Who decides that news? editors and press rooms, that vote 95% democrat.

revefsreleets
10-06-2008, 08:55 AM
I was listening to a very funny black comedian this morning on O&A (Patrice for anyone who's familiar), and he brought up a couple really interesting and IMO valid points. The first was, if Barrack had a pregnant teen daughter out of wedlock, white conservatives would be up in arms, all "See how THEY are!", which is funny and true.

Second was, he thinks many blacks WON'T vote for Obama because they don't respect each other. His analogy was ever go to a McDonalds where it's all blacks, even the manager? He says it's chaos...but if there is a white manager, everything runs fine, even if the manager is the only white.

Remember, his words, not mine...

Hawk Believer
10-06-2008, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=revefsreleets;450285]I was listening to a very funny black comedian this morning on O&A (Patrice for anyone who's familiar), and he brought up a couple really interesting and IMO valid points. The first was, if Barrack had a pregnant teen daughter out of wedlock, white conservatives would be up in arms, all "See how THEY are!", which is funny and true.
[QUOTE]

Imagine how many times the words "baby mama" would have been used if one of Barak's kids was pregnant. Heck, the term was used in the media to describe Michelle Obama and she and Barak actually waited to be married before they got pregnant.

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-06-2008, 11:32 AM
I was listening to a very funny black comedian this morning on O&A (Patrice for anyone who's familiar), and he brought up a couple really interesting and IMO valid points. The first was, if Barrack had a pregnant teen daughter out of wedlock, white conservatives would be up in arms, all "See how THEY are!", which is funny and true.

Second was, he thinks many blacks WON'T vote for Obama because they don't respect each other. His analogy was ever go to a McDonalds where it's all blacks, even the manager? He says it's chaos...but if there is a white manager, everything runs fine, even if the manager is the only white.

Remember, his words, not mine...

I think The mother of the Spears family brought this up...and I think there is some validity to what she said,,,her daughter was crucified for getting pregnant.

That being said...I appreciated Palin's acknowledgment of her daughters pregnancy and her familys willingness to explain that it was unfortunate but they would do the right thing

I never heard what the Spears had to say about their daughter....but then again I never made any conclusion whatsoever...since I could care less what happens inside the Hollywood "bubble".

Leftoverhard
10-06-2008, 11:41 AM
Imagine how many times the words "baby mama" would have been used

I'm so glad we don't have to deal with that.