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augustashark
10-15-2008, 09:15 PM
Boy, I bet O wishes he would not have talked to "Joe the plumber"!

Way to go O!:sofunny:

SteelersGirlTN7
10-15-2008, 10:13 PM
This debate is getting ugly!

steelwall
10-16-2008, 03:08 AM
Why couldnt they say , "Hussian" the plumber or "Akbar" the plumber, why's it allways gotta be Joe?

Preacher
10-16-2008, 03:24 AM
Why couldnt they say , "Hussian" the plumber or "Akbar" the plumber, why's it allways gotta be Joe?


Because Bob is already the builder!

http://www.butlinsonline.co.uk/microsites/2OO7/images/large_peak/bob_the_builder_lgepf.jpg

xfl2001fan
10-16-2008, 08:22 AM
This debate is getting ugly!

True, but you've got to love some of the questions asked. I was personally proud of the one where both candidates were asked about their negative ad campaigns.

All in all, the 1:30 I watched last night seemed like a few semi-answers and a whole bunch of deflection (on both sides.)

Early on, I think Obama was winning...then McCain made me sit up with the whole, If you wanted to run against George Bush...

Good stuff. You know he has been holding that one for a minute.

Vis
10-16-2008, 09:11 AM
plant...........

stillers4me
10-16-2008, 09:19 AM
Why couldnt they say , "Hussian" the plumber or "Akbar" the plumber, why's it allways gotta be Joe?

ummmm......... because that's his name. Joe Wurzelbacher.

Vis
10-16-2008, 09:26 AM
ummmm......... because that's his name. Joe Wurzelbacher.

Son of a McCain donor and not even registered to vote in Ohio. Hmmmmm.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 09:33 AM
Please...always with the conspiracy theories.

Joe the Plumber was a dead horse being beaten before the debate was even over. They must've mentioned him 20 times. That dude should forget the plumbing business, put out his own You tube video, try and get on the talk show circuit and secure a book deal TODAY while the iron is still hot.

Vis
10-16-2008, 09:35 AM
Please...always with the conspiracy theories.

Joe the Plumber was a dead horse being beaten before the debate was even over. They must've mentioned him 20 times. That dude should forget the plumbing business, put out his own You tube video, try and get on the talk show circuit and secure a book deal TODAY while the iron is still hot.


And he needs plugs

stillers4me
10-16-2008, 09:36 AM
I don't care if was a plant. Both parties do it all the time. And it made Obama slip and show the REAL man running for president. The one I knew was running. The socialist in sheeps clothing.

And for those of you too young to have learned what socialism is.......google it. ( I don't think liberal textbooks today want kids to know the truth anyway.)

And then look up if there are any properous socialist countries out there. Ask the people of China, Cuba, the Soviet Union, and France what they think of socialism. Ask the people of Canada why the conservatives have now won two elections is a row and how they like traveling to the U.S. to get decent health care.

I swear, the people of this county have no clue about what they think they are supporting.

fansince'76
10-16-2008, 09:36 AM
ummmm......... because that's his name. Joe Wurzelbacher.

cLywD77KBT0

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

Vis
10-16-2008, 09:37 AM
I don't care if was a plant. Both parties do it all the time. And it made Obama slip and show the REAL man running for president. The one I knew was running. The socialist in sheeps clothing.

And for those of you too young to have learned what socialism is.......google it. ( I don't think liberal textbooks today want kids to know the truth anyway.)

And then look up if there are any properous socialist countries out there. Ask the people of China, Cuba, the Soviet Union, and France what they think of socialism. Ask the people of Canada why the conservatives have now won two elections is a row and how they like traveling to the U.S. to get decent health care.

I swear, the people of this county have no clue about what they think they are supporting.


Then Google fascism

stillers4me
10-16-2008, 09:48 AM
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality


If you think we are a facsist state, then you are sadly sadly mistaken. Peace through strength is not fascism nor do we take over countries to build an empire.

Leftoverhard
10-16-2008, 10:42 AM
Please...always with the conspiracy theories.

Joe the Plumber was a dead horse being beaten before the debate was even over. They must've mentioned him 20 times. That dude should forget the plumbing business, put out his own You tube video, try and get on the talk show circuit and secure a book deal TODAY while the iron is still hot.

Seriously, cash in. He'll probably get his own home makeover show where he fixes people's leaky sinks and clogged toilets with a political twist.

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 10:53 AM
Seriously, cash in. He'll probably get his own home makeover show where he fixes people's leaky sinks and clogged toilets with a political twist.:toofunny: -BRILLIANT!

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 11:01 AM
"Joe Warliwhathisname: Beyond the Orings!"

I smell NYT bestseller, baby!

Leftoverhard
10-16-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't care if was a plant. Both parties do it all the time. And it made Obama slip and show the REAL man running for president. The one I knew was running. The socialist in sheeps clothing.

And for those of you too young to have learned what socialism is.......google it. ( I don't think liberal textbooks today want kids to know the truth anyway.)

And then look up if there are any properous socialist countries out there. Ask the people of China, Cuba, the Soviet Union, and France what they think of socialism. Ask the people of Canada why the conservatives have now won two elections is a row and how they like traveling to the U.S. to get decent health care.

I swear, the people of this county have no clue about what they think they are supporting.

Fortune cookie of the day for you:
When you make statements calling liberals socialists, you highlight your ignorance.


.

Mosca
10-16-2008, 12:05 PM
TWEEET!

(ref comes over to both benches, gives short talk about respecting each others points of view)....

Come on. No one really thinks that the other guy would actually like fascism, or socialism.

Sorry if that's out of line, and I seem like a nanny. But there is actually some good observation here. Joe Plumber makes some good points. Obama answers some of his concerns but definitely sidesteps others.

Jo Plumber is actually a registered Republican; his name is spelled wrong on the rolls. Ironically, those are the people who some others (won't say who) are trying to get purged.

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 12:09 PM
yeah, this thread is better off if just left for making fun of Joe Schnitzelbuns.

Leftoverhard
10-16-2008, 12:35 PM
Totally, and I think it's important to to bring national attention to the plight of the Plumber, I mean, we don't want those guys to just slip through the cracks.

http://www.myplumberscrack.com/images/crack.jpg

Vis
10-16-2008, 01:24 PM
So the guy is related to Robert Wurzelbacher who has given over 10k to McCain and is the son-in-law of Charles Keating.

Fun stuff

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Bigfoot and space aliens and lizard people.

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 05:31 PM
im glad weve come to the point where a plumber is put up as a possible deciding factor of economic policy for the next 4 years. :yawn:

btw one of my best buds and family in-law is a plumber named joe. he handles all our issues de plumb. i pay him very well, under the table, tax free.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 05:36 PM
I saw an interview he did with someone on the Today Show (I think it was the Today Show???)...the guy was well-spoken and was certainly no dummy. He made valid points and was clear and concise. He refuses to say who he'll vote for, although it's pretty clear that he definitely realizes whose tax plan will be better for his business when and if he buys it.

MACH1
10-16-2008, 06:31 PM
I saw an interview he did with someone on the Today Show (I think it was the Today Show???)...the guy was well-spoken and was certainly no dummy. He made valid points and was clear and concise. He refuses to say who he'll vote for, although it's pretty clear that he definitely realizes whose tax plan will be better for his business when and if he buys it.

Yeah I seen an interview with him. He didn't seem to to impressed with Obama's plan. He was saying that it doesn't start at the bottom, it starts at the top. And when you tax a successful business it hits the guys at the bottom too, the ones that work for you. Employers are going to have to let good people go.

Hines0wnz
10-16-2008, 07:15 PM
My roomie suggested that I dress as "Joe the plumber" for Halloween. :chuckle:

Yes, my name is Joe in case you have to ask.

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 07:23 PM
Yeah I seen an interview with him. He didn't seem to to impressed with Obama's plan. He was saying that it doesn't start at the bottom, it starts at the top. And when you tax a successful business it hits the guys at the bottom too, the ones that work for you. Employers are going to have to let good people go.
yep, its rough having to lay off a good $5.75/hr employee to compensate losing a few percentage points on a million dollar a year salary. (someone who only makes $250,000 wouldnt be losing $5.75 on the hour).

HOLLAND, Ohio - Joe the Plumber said Thursday he doesn't have a license and doesn't need one. Joe Wurzelbacher, better known as Joe the Plumber, the nickname Republican John McCain bestowed on him during Wednesday's presidential debate, said he works for a small plumbing company that does residential work. Because he works for someone else, he doesn't need a license, he said.

But the county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses. Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo.

...

Wurzelbacher, 34, said he doesn't have a good plan put together on how he would buy Newell Plumbing and Heating in nearby Toledo.

...

"I just hope I'm not making too much of a fool of myself," he added.


doh! :doh:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber;_ylt=ApVz_E96Th1kaRk3W04WESBh24cA

i would love to hear his wisdom on paying for business licenses and business tax. looks like mccain didnt properly vet his plant. :chuckle:

OK conflicting reports on if his employer is lisenced, but still "joe" (if that is his real name) may wanna actuall consider paying the taxes he owes as opposed to what he may owe if he ever figures out a way to become a business owner. :dang:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber_24;_ylt=AoffsXEkHive0flrnTdFLxVh24 cA

HOLLAND, Ohio - Joe the Plumber's story sprang a few leaks Thursday. Turns out that the man who was held up by John McCain as the typical, hard-working American taxpayer isn't really a licensed plumber. And court documents show he owes nearly $1,200 in back taxes.

"Joe," whose name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, was cited repeatedly in Wednesday night's final presidential debate by McCain for questioning Barack Obama's tax policy.

Wurzelbacher instantly became a media celebrity, fielding calls during the debate and facing reporters outside his home near Toledo on Thursday morning for an impromptu nationally televised news conference.

The burly, bald man acknowledged he doesn't have a plumber's license, but said he didn't need one because he works for someone else at a company that does residential work.

But Wurzelbacher still would need to be a licensed apprentice or journeyman to work in Toledo, and he's not, said David Golis, manager and residential building official for the Toledo Division of Building Inspection.

State and local records show Wurzelbacher has no license, although his employer does. Golis said there are no records of inspectors citing Wurzelbacher for unlicensed work in Toledo.

And then there was the matter of his taxes.

Wurzelbacher owes the state of Ohio $1,182.98 in personal income tax, according to Lucas County Court of Common Pleas records.


:busted:

Mosca
10-16-2008, 07:42 PM
Just watching Inside Edition; it seems Joe doesn't have a plumbing license, and has current tax liens of over $1000... I should say not he doesn't like more taxes. He doesn't like the ones we have now.

I think that people should try to be a bit more squeaky clean before calling the light of the media onto themselves.

Oops. Hip beat me to it.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 07:46 PM
The relevancy of his tax records is escaping me. If anything it puts an exclamation point on what he previously stated.

Plumbers make CONSIDERABLY more than $5.75 an hour, too.

The point is getting lost amidst the spin. If a Plumber has to lay off 3 guys (say out of 20 employees) who make $30 an hour because his taxes ratcheted up, how does that do any good for "the bottom up"?

Should we be happy that Obama would probably toss those newly unemployed guys a couple hundred a week in relief?

Mosca
10-16-2008, 08:01 PM
I think the relevancy of his taxes is, HE CAN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM IF HE DOESN'T PAY THEM.

Of course the theoretical question is valid. But Joe the Plumber's whole point was to bring the tax plan into the real world, and the real world has struck back cruelly.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 08:08 PM
I think the relevancy of his taxes is, HE CAN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM IF HE DOESN'T PAY THEM.

Of course the theoretical question is valid. But Joe the Plumber's whole point was to bring the tax plan into the real world, and the real world has struck back cruelly.

He doesn't pay them?

Or he's behind on them?

There's a big difference...and it underscores the point. Taxes are too high, and if he makes more money, he'll probably face further challenges. Why isn't he licensed? What does a plumbing license cost in Ohio? I wonder how many non-owners who plumb don't have licenses?

This IS real-World...

Mosca
10-16-2008, 08:22 PM
Well, I don't know, rev. I think that if it went all the way to a tax lien, then he just plain didn't pay them; I work with interpreting that stuff on a daily basis, and tax liens mean that it went pretty far. It's usually failure to report a 1099 and then ignoring the notices.

I don't think you need to stretch to make the point. The real world didn't strike back at anyone but Joe the Plumber. The questions were valid, but the wrong guy was asking them. HE got creamed. I bet he didn't see THAT coming!

Probably a Browns fan anyhow, dude. There's better examples out there.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 08:31 PM
Wait...woah...hold on a second.

This guy wants to buy a business, but he was undone buy a $1200 tax bill?

I thought his family was all tied into money and he was a Fox News plant?

Guess not on Vis' conspiracy theory.

My point isn't diminished at all. This IS average Joe Six Pack. Dude makes a decent living I'm guessing, but he can't pay a $1200 tax bill. Yet he's aspiring to own a business. And he's also cognizant of the fact that Obama's plan would not benefit his particular version of the American dream.

I'm wondering how his credibility has been diminished? Isn't "hardscrabble" a badge of honor for the Democrats? Isn't Joe worthy of the term?

Worst of all, since it's obvious that the left is scrambling to discredit Joe the Plumber by digging up tax records and stuff, they must feel like this lowly plumber from Ohio struck a blow. Or McCain did. Ether way...

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 08:38 PM
The relevancy of his tax records is escaping me. If anything it puts an exclamation point on what he previously stated.

Plumbers make CONSIDERABLY more than $5.75 an hour, too.

The point is getting lost amidst the spin. If a Plumber has to lay off 3 guys (say out of 20 employees) who make $30 an hour because his taxes ratcheted up, how does that do any good for "the bottom up"?

Should we be happy that Obama would probably toss those newly unemployed guys a couple hundred a week in relief?your math is off amidst the spin.

WHY would a plumbing business owner making $250,000 per year have to lay off $187,000 (3 emp X $30/hr X 2080hr/yr) labor hours to cover a 3% increase ($7500) on his taxes?

people who dont understand this probably dont need to be in "business" in the 1st place.

and just about all the small business owners who mccain has beatten the fear of God into, dont have employees making much more than the national minimum wage ($5.75/hour = around $12,000/year).

therefore, the cost of the increase doesnt even = 1 persons salary at minimum wage. which means if said business owner MUST retain that 1 good employee to stay in business they dip into their personal profits, thus dropping them below the $250,000 threshold which means they wont be paying for the proposed tax increase.

Godfather
10-16-2008, 08:40 PM
Worst of all, since it's obvious that the left is scrambling to discredit Joe the Plumber by digging up tax records and stuff, they must feel like this lowly plumber from Ohio struck a blow. Or McCain did. Ether way...

Kos is the driving force behind that. The same scumbag who claimed Trig was really Bristol's baby. Kos needs to be hounded out of public life (and yes, I feel the same way about Drudge).

It's scary when a regular citizen asking a question gets vetted like a politician. It's bad enough that both sides have deterred most respectable people from seeking office. Now you can't even ask a candidate a question.

Godfather
10-16-2008, 08:40 PM
Funniest thing was what Obama said on the evening news: "How many plumbers do you know who make $250K?"

Um...he's obviously never had a pipe break!

MACH1
10-16-2008, 08:42 PM
yep, its rough having to lay off a good $5.75/hr employee to compensate losing a few percentage points on a million dollar a year salary. (someone who only makes $250,000 wouldnt be losing $5.75 on the hour).


$5.75 is that what your pay you brother in law? Didn't think so.:busted: :chuckle: When was the last time you hired a plumber for $5.75, or any skilled labor , profession for that manner.
Any successful small business is going to make over $250,000. a year. When the owners get dinged, well, you've herd the term, sh!t rolls down hill. And who's at the bottom of that hill, the employee's.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 08:47 PM
your math is off amidst the spin.

WHY would a plumbing business owner making $250,000 per year have to lay off $187,000 labor hours to cover a 3% increase ($7500) on his taxes?

people who dont understand this probably dont need to be in "business" in the 1st place.

and just about all the small business owners who mccain has beatten the fear of God into, dont have employees making much more than the national minimum wage ($5.75/hour = around $12,000/year).

therefore, the cost of the increase doesnt even = 1 persons salary at minimum wage.

Because these aren't simple business models. There's no such thing unless you are talking about a child's Lemonade Stand.

First off, most businesses live at under a penny per dollar profit, and that's straight profit. Less than 1%. So if he brings in a million a year in gross receipts, he may make $10,000. 10 ain't that much. $7500 eats up 75% of it right there.

See?

Mosca
10-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Wait...woah...hold on a second.

This guy wants to buy a business, but he was undone buy a $1200 tax bill?



Undone by a $1200 tax bill?

I get a measurable amount of my yearly income untaxed; I get a 1099 at the end of the year for it. During the year I put aside some of the income, to pay taxes. If the amount gets too high, I have to file quarterly estimates (which are sent in along with a check).

There's not really any excuse for not doing it. Taxes are pretty freakin' low right now. If you make enough to report the 1099 income, you get enough to pay the taxes on it. If you don't, then you aren't a very good plumber and need to find another line of work.

Again; just because the guy is a goof doesn't make the argument invalid. I'm not tearing at the argument, I'm laughing at the poor sadsack Joe Plumber Browns fan who got caught up in the meat grinder.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 08:54 PM
Undone by a $1200 tax bill?

I get a measurable amount of my yearly income untaxed; I get a 1099 at the end of the year for it. During the year I put aside some of the income, to pay taxes. If the amount gets too high, I have to file quarterly estimates (which are sent in along with a check).

There's not really any excuse for not doing it. Taxes are pretty freakin' low right now. If you make enough to report the 1099 income, you get enough to pay the taxes on it. If you don't, then you aren't a very good plumber and need to find another line of work.

Again; just because the guy is a goof doesn't make the argument invalid. I'm not tearing at the argument, I'm laughing at the poor sadsack Joe Plumber Browns fan who got caught up in the meat grinder.

I sell advertising to small business owners all day, every day. These people run on razor thin margins.

I have massive respect for anyone who would ever undertake the endeavor. There are so many forces lined up against the small business man it's a miracle as many are as successful as they actually are.

If we put the last couple posts of mine together, $1200 now represents a pretty big part of that $2500 that "Joe made" on his million gross.

What if a truck breaks down? He gets sued by a super litigious asshole at one of his jobs? C'mon guys, you are trying to trash out a guy who really did nothing but ask an effing question Obama didn't have a good answer for...

Mosca
10-16-2008, 08:55 PM
$5.75 is that what you pay you brother in law? Didn't think so.:busted: :chuckle: When was the last time you hired a plumber for $5.75, or any skilled labor , profession for that manner.
Any successful small business is going to make over $250,000. a year. When the owners get dinged, well, you've herd the term, sh!t rolls down hill. And who's at the bottom of that hill, the employee's.

No, it isn't. Most small businesses make far less than $250,000 a year. They might have gross revenues over that, but that isn't the same as taxable income. A very small percentage of small businesses make over $250,000 a year. Like... about 5%.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 09:01 PM
No, it isn't. Most small businesses make far less than $250,000 a year. They might have gross revenues over that, but that isn't the same as taxable income. A very small percentage of small businesses make over $250,000 a year. Like... about 5%.

Where in the Hell did you make that number up from? Small business is any company from 1-499 employees. The typical business NFIB represents has 5 employees and grosses 350k.
http://www.nfib.com/page/nfibRepresents.html

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 09:06 PM
I'll fire a shot across your bow now...I used to work for the NFIB, the PAC/lobby for small business.

If you want to go there, we can go there....but....

Mosca
10-16-2008, 09:07 PM
I sell advertising to small business owners all day, every day. These people run on razor thin margins.

I have massive respect for anyone who would ever undertake the endeavor. There are so many forces lined up against the small business man it's a miracle as many are as successful as they actually are.

If we put the last couple posts of mine together, $1200 now represents a pretty big part of that $2500 that "Joe made" on his million gross.

What if a truck breaks down? He gets sued by a super litigious asshole at one of his jobs? C'mon guys, you are trying to trash out a guy who really did nothing but ask an effing question Obama didn't have a good answer for...

I deal with these guys all day long, too, and I agree with you. But you have to also agree that not all of them are cut from the same cloth; some of them CAN pay, but still take you all the way out to 30 days. And some of them stiff you. Are we making fun of the guy? Yeah, I guess so. But I'm really laughing at the situation. I laugh when a guy slips on a banana peel, too. He got blindsided, but his life will go on.

I also have a number of small businessmen as clients, many of them plumbers and electricians, and most of them make about the same as you or I do. The ones who pay taxes on over $250K aren't carrying tools around, generally speaking; they're bidding jobs on malls and stadiums.

Mosca
10-16-2008, 09:08 PM
Where in the Hell did you make that number up from? Small business is any company from 1-499 employees. The typical business NFIB represents has 5 employees and grosses 350k.
http://www.nfib.com/page/nfibRepresents.html

LOL, you were supposed to get the joke. The 5% came from Obama. I was expecting you to riff off of that!

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 09:09 PM
i think alot of people need to see the difference between the actual operating cost of a business vs. the owners $250,000 profit.

ive known many small business owners w/ 5 or so employees who dont take home much more than $100,000 per year. these people will be unaffected.

Mosca
10-16-2008, 09:10 PM
Where in the Hell did you make that number up from? Small business is any company from 1-499 employees. The typical business NFIB represents has 5 employees and grosses 350k.
http://www.nfib.com/page/nfibRepresents.html


GROSSES. I'm talking about netting. Income, not gross receipts. And I agree with you. Margins are razor thin. A guy writes income of $25K a month on his application, I ask him what is the bottom line on page 1 of his 1040.

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 09:11 PM
LOL, you were supposed to get the joke. The 5% came from Obama. I was expecting you to riff off of that!

Sorry, it's a reflex reaction. I'm a lifelong small business advocate, and I get hot and heavy fast when I see anything that "hits home".

revefsreleets
10-16-2008, 09:14 PM
GROSSES. I'm talking about netting. Income, not gross receipts. And I agree with you. Margins are razor thin.

We could go there too...5-499 gives me a LOT of room to work. 99% of the independent enterprises in this country employ fewer than 500 people. I was all fired up and ready to "Get into it".

Sorry...it happens and political season makes it worse...

Crushzilla
10-16-2008, 09:16 PM
I'm actually writing in Joe the Plumber

baaaackfire.

EDIT: please resume the INTELLIGENT conversation now

tony hipchest
10-16-2008, 09:27 PM
LOL, you were supposed to get the joke. The 5% came from Obama. I was expecting you to riff off of that!so were left to believe either revs research or obamas? :crazy01:

seriously though im interested in joe plummer having to cut 3 employees at standard rate to make up for a tax hike.

by my rough calculations $187,000 would be the tax increase on somebody making about $50 million per year? maybe my math is off. (im doing this in my head). :noidea:

Mosca
10-16-2008, 09:38 PM
so were left to believe either revs research or obamas? :crazy01:

seriously though im interested in joe plummer having to cut 3 employees at standard rate to make up for a tax hike.


Yeah, I was feeding him a straight line. S'cool though, rev gets it; there isn't any anger in me here, and a whole lot of fun.

"Up to 499" definitely gives a lot of leeway. When I think small business, I think under 100. And most plumbers and electricians are under a dozen, at least the ones in my social circle!

augustashark
10-17-2008, 12:13 AM
When I watched the exchange between O and JTP I did not care about O's tax plan. The thing I was struck by was the "Spreading the wealth around" comment!!!!!! I don't think it is the gov's purpose to take money from hardworking people and give to those who are not.

It's all about the RECORD! O is and always will be a tax and spend lib. I don't care if he goes blue in the face from repeating I will cut taxes on 95% of the people, his RECORD speaks for itself! Like in tommy boy, you can shit in a box and slap a guarantee on it, but it's still a box full of shit.

O insults every citizens intelligence including his own base!

MACH1
10-17-2008, 12:34 AM
Its not just income tax. Its business taxes that are going up under his plan. And with his medical plan, if it sticks. All owners will be forced to pay into his group plan and YES there will be a fine if you don't. And don't be a fool and make the mistake and think that you'll be exempt from any of it, even if he said so in the debate. We all know he'll say anything to get elected.
It all adds up in the end. Thats all I'm getting at.

Like in tommy boy, you can shit in a box and slap a guarantee on it, but it's still a box full of shit.

revefsreleets
10-17-2008, 09:05 AM
so were left to believe either revs research or obamas? :crazy01:

seriously though im interested in joe plummer having to cut 3 employees at standard rate to make up for a tax hike.

by my rough calculations $187,000 would be the tax increase on somebody making about $50 million per year? maybe my math is off. (im doing this in my head). :noidea:

Big difference is I'm not gonna lie to anyone because I'm not trying to win an election at any cost.

And I guess I wasn't clear. If dude only makes 10k a year in profits, it takes almost NOTHING for him to shoot right into the red, and, unlike the government or certain priviledged banks and brokerages, a small busines that loses money will quickly tank and go under and they'll ALL lose their jobs.

His choices are to raise prices or lay people off. If the market is super competitive, if he raises prices he'll lose business, which will probably lead to lay-offs anyway. If he lays people off and keeps his prices low, quality will suffer because he'll be understaffed, which means he'll start losing business and is right back in the frying pan. There are no easy solutions, but I'm in 100% agreement with him and any other small businessman faced with these questions: When times are tight (and things are about to get VERY tight), raising taxes on these types of businesses is wrong and won't help.

These constant simple black/white answers to incredibly complex multilayered questions is simply not based in the harsh realities of tthe real world. I LIKE the fact that Joe the Plumber owes back taxes...it illustrates my point. Do you think he didn't pay them because he's a tax scofflaw, or becasue he can't really afford them?

tony hipchest
10-17-2008, 01:11 PM
These constant simple black/white answers to incredibly complex multilayered questions is simply not based in the harsh realities of tthe real world. I LIKE the fact that Joe the Plumber owes back taxes...it illustrates my point. Do you think he didn't pay them because he's a tax scofflaw, or becasue he can't really afford them?thats a dire picture you paint of poor joe the plummer. i will assume you dont know him personally (if im wrong please correct me). since were both speculating about a random person we both dont know let me paint a more realistic picture.

all i really know is joe was leaning up against his black dodge durango while giving an interview. i do know it costs me $60 more a month to fuel my tahoe as opposed to my car.

the average joe i know, probably has 3 tv's in their household and has spent atleast $1200 on a 50" plasma or lcd in the past 2 years. i will assume joe has direct tv, possibly nfl sunday ticket, and enjoys a case of brew on the weekends. perhaps he smokes.

i think he can afford the taxes. does that mean he is a "tax scofflaw"? no. i would assume joe is doing his taxes on a 1040ez form as opposed to seeing a cpa. perhaps its something as simple as claiming 1 when he should be claiming 0. :noidea:

anyways i was gonna do some re-research to show the tax implications for joe but found someone on another board summing it up nicely (some of which, ive already stated)-

So how much is Joe making? Right now, he's still a plumber, so he's probably raking in about $45,000-$60,000 a year, according to government estimates. When he buys that small business, he's likely to earn more--but not $250,000. That's because $250,000 is the amount of revenue the business is said to pull in; after expenses--equipment, employees, etc.--his personal profit will be significantly less. Let's say a still-healthy $100,000.

How, you ask, would each of candidates change Wurzelbacher's tax bill if elected president? According a recent study by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Institute--which broke down Obama's and McCain's proposed tax plans by income bracket--Joe the Plumber (the guy making, say, $60,000 a year) would see his tax bill slashed by $319 under McCain and $1,042 under Obama. That's a $723 difference. Meanwhile, Joe the Small-Business Owner (the guy making $100,000 a year) would pay $1,009 less under McCain and $1,290 less under Obama, for a difference of $181.Even if Joe's profits are higher--say $160,000 a year--he'll still score a $2,204 tax cut from Obama, which is only slightly smaller than the $2,614 rebate he'd receive from McCain.

This presents us with an interesting--and illustrative--paradox. Whether or not Wurzelbacher buys his business, he's likely to get a larger tax cut from Obama than McCain--and yet he still prefers McCain's plan to Obama's. Ultimately, then, we end up with two potential voting blocs. First there are the people who earn less than $250,000 and want the largest possible tax cut for themselves--a group doesn't include Joe the Plumber OR Joe the Small-Business Owner. Then there are the people--like Joe--who earn less than $250,000 a year, but are willing to turn down the bigger tax cut for one of three reasons. Some are trickle-down adherents who believe that larger tax cuts for richer people will stimulate the economy. Others simply don't trust Obama to keep his word. And then there are those who identify with the wealthy, believe they're bound strike it rich someday and don't want to pay higher taxes when they do.

revefsreleets
10-17-2008, 01:43 PM
Why are bouncing back and forth between 50 million and $100,000? I mean I know why, but it's these kinds of weird leaps you take to have to admit you aren't wrong that puzzle me...

And I'm taking this to mean that, based on a WHOLE BUNCH of assumptions, you ARE saying Joe is a scofflaw. I mean, you tell me I don't know him, then you make all kinds of leaps about what he owns and what services he buys, etc, etc...fact is the dude owes some taxes, and he settled one of his liens. I don't think it's a reach to say the guy struggles paying his bills just like millions of other Americans, and I don't need to speculate about his cable service provider to feel pretty confident in that assessment.

The basic premise here, and this comes right from the dude himself, is that if he buys this business and works hard, and he starts making a lot of money is that Obama is going to tax him more. His particular situation he's in right now was not what the hypothetical that he presented to Obama. Joe starts making taxable income over 250k, and Obama is going to redistribute his wealth for him. If he runs on thin margins, his increased tax burden is going to smart.

There's really nowhere else to go with this...but I'm sure you'll shoehorn something or other in here to make Obama's redistribution of wealth a noble plan....(sigh)

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
10-17-2008, 02:08 PM
I bet you that JOE THE PLUMMER's businees picks up............he may soon be rich

tony hipchest
10-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Why are bouncing back and forth between 50 million and $100,000? because you said "joe plummer" will have to lay off 3 employees to make up for tax increases.

talk about "weird leaps". its called simple math and real world applications, sprinkled with a little bit of deductive reasonning. i think it IS far fetched to say he's struggling paying his bills. but neither of us really know.

if he is, maybe its time to quit racking them up, trade in the durango, and live within ones means. obama hasnt put himself in the situation he currently finds himself in (if hes as broke as you say).

the whole joe plummer angle looked good on paper and definitely had obama flummoxed and his wheels quickly spinning for an answer during the debate.

it was a good strategy used by mccain if only it were a whimsical anecdote, as opposed to being hammered as groundwork for his financial platform.

Mosca
10-17-2008, 02:59 PM
FWIW, Joe Plumber has confessed that he was a plant... and has grudgingly agreed that he would fare better under Obama's plan.

Neither here nor there, give it whatever importance you think it should have. I find it fascinating as part of the campaign strategy, one that I think was another mis-step.

Leaning against the Dodge Durango SUV parked in his driveway, Wurzelbacher said he was a conservative who would be honored to meet McCain. He acknowledged that under Obama's plan, his taxes would be cut. "But I don't look at it that way. He'd still be hurting others," he said.

Wurzelbacher also divulged that the McCain campaign had contacted him several days before the debate and asked him to appear at the Toledo rally. A campaign aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Wurzelbacher had been invited.

The aide said the campaign did not vet Wurzelbacher and didn't see the need. "We did not look into his background, because millions of Americans will see a tax increase under Barack Obama, and we do not have time or interest in vetting all of them," the aide said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-joe17-2008oct17,0,3836666.story

MACH1
10-17-2008, 03:32 PM
It doesn't make his question or obama's answer any less credible. IMO

Vis
10-17-2008, 03:37 PM
Straight talk express...........

Leftoverhard
10-17-2008, 03:46 PM
"Officials of his local plumbing union, which has endorsed Obama, say he falsely claims to be a union member."

"He acknowledged that under Obama's plan, his taxes would be cut. "But I don't look at it that way. He'd still be hurting others," he said."

Ouch.

Vis
10-17-2008, 03:54 PM
So will McCain keep bringing him up? Has he any shame at all?

tony hipchest
10-17-2008, 04:08 PM
So will McCain keep bringing him up? Has he any shame at all?he actually apologized to joe last night on letterman.

the trainwreck express...... :dang:

klick81
10-17-2008, 04:13 PM
LOL...what a joke.

Vis
10-17-2008, 04:23 PM
he actually apologized to joe last night on letterman.

the trainwreck express...... :dang:

What for?

tony hipchest
10-17-2008, 05:08 PM
What for?for bringing all this media attention and scrutiny down upon him. letterman grilled him pretty hard (especially on palin).

McCain ended his feud with David Letterman tonight, finally appearing on his show after he canceled a September appearance to ostensibly deal with the bailout but then sat down instead with Katie Couric.

"I screwed up," McCain told the talk show host in a Thursday afternoon taping.


McCain also apologized to Joe the Plumber, the undecided voter the Arizona Senator mentioned in last night’s debate who’s become an overnight media sensation.

"Joe, if you're watching, I'm sorry," said McCain, who called average Americans, like Joe, the “victims of a drive-by shooting by Washington and Wall Street.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/1008/McCain_to_Letterman_I_screwed_up.html

Vis
10-17-2008, 05:42 PM
The not undecided voter, tax evading non-plumber who would be better off under Obama that McCain sent to an Obama rally to lie. He should apologize to us.

Leftoverhard
10-17-2008, 06:02 PM
The not undecided voter, tax evading non-plumber who would be better off under Obama that McCain sent to an Obama rally to lie. He should apologize to us.

I'll have to agree.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-17-2008, 06:23 PM
Joe starts making taxable income over 250k, ............ If he runs on thin margins, his increased tax burden is going to smart.

Actually, Income =Revenue-Expenses.....so the built in profit margin by business owners is irrelevant when determining EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes).

Joe's Plumbing Inc. can have a 70% gross margin or 7% gross margin on sales, but what is important is what his EBIT is. or what he actually earns net of expenses.

Man, the SNL skit last night had me laughing ..:rofl:

Preacher
10-17-2008, 06:36 PM
He doesn't pay them?

Or he's behind on them?

There's a big difference...and it underscores the point. Taxes are too high, and if he makes more money, he'll probably face further challenges. Why isn't he licensed? What does a plumbing license cost in Ohio? I wonder how many non-owners who plumb don't have licenses?

This IS real-World...


And does he HAVE TO be licensed when he is working under another plumber. I don't think so.

He only needs a license once he buys the business... and even then, he can buy the name and work as a contractor, contracting licensed plumbers.

There may even be a law there like the one in California.. If you don't work on an area over 9x9 feet, you do not need a license. So who knows? Does he need one for plunging toilets, replacing them, and doing some pipe work? Maybe not. he may only need them to plumb a house.

There really isn't a reason to disparage the man because he doesn't have a license. Nor a reason to disparage him because he is behind on his property taxes. After all, I am behind on mine. My bank doesn't pay them until the day before they become delinquent.

Vis
10-17-2008, 06:40 PM
And does he HAVE TO be licensed when he is working under another plumber. I don't think so.

He only needs a license once he buys the business... and even then, he can buy the name and work as a contractor, contracting licensed plumbers.

There may even be a law there like the one in California.. If you don't work on an area over 9x9 feet, you do not need a license. So who knows? Does he need one for plunging toilets, replacing them, and doing some pipe work? Maybe not. he may only need them to plumb a house.

There really isn't a reason to disparage the man because he doesn't have a license. Nor a reason to disparage him because he is behind on his property taxes. After all, I am behind on mine. My bank doesn't pay them until the day before they become delinquent.


Or the fact that he was a plant. I recall something on a stone tablet.....

HometownGal
10-17-2008, 06:50 PM
The not undecided voter, tax evading non-plumber who would be better off under Obama that McCain sent to an Obama rally to lie. He should apologize to us.

I'll have to agree.

http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-archive-2008-07/att-0126/Sheeple.gif

I have made a note to myself that as soon as I hit the Submit button, I am going to commit an act of contortion and kick myself in the ass, as I promised myself that I was never going to post in any of these political threads again to save my own sanity. :doh::banging: It's all your fault, Vis and Leftover - couldn't help myself to save my soul after reading those posts. :laughing::rofl::laughing:

Vis
10-17-2008, 06:52 PM
You are the forgive any sin of your side type, HTG?

Mosca
10-17-2008, 06:58 PM
There is no question that Joe's question of Obama was legitimate.

The problem is that once the focus went to Joe, the question got lost. As a campaign maneuver, McCain got outflanked; the only news that came out of the whole thing that could make an impression on undecideds is that Joe would pay less taxes under Obama's plan whether he bought the business or not. For better or worse, fair or unfair, it is what happened.

As a campaign maneuver, Joe looked like a good one for McCain; but Obama's strategists have most likely at least neutralized it, and perhaps even turned it to their advantage. Remember, there isn't a lot of positive sentiment for those people making over $250,000 a year. Most Americans don't associate them with small businessmen; most Americans associate that tax bracket with stockbrokers, Wall Street, President of US Steel, Barbra Streisand, Terrell Owens, etc.

I fell kind of bad for Joe, too. I think he got screwed in all of this. Yesterday I didn't feel that way, but now I do. He deserved better from his candidate.

HometownGal
10-17-2008, 07:02 PM
You are the forgive any sin of your side type, HTG?

You want to put that in English, Vis?

Vis
10-17-2008, 07:04 PM
You want to put that in English, Vis?

How low does McCain's campaign have to sink for it to bother you?

HometownGal
10-17-2008, 07:16 PM
How low does McCain's campaign have to sink for it to bother you?

Excuse me? I really think you'd better change your tune pal. Quit trying to bait me with your ridiculous comments, please?

But since you asked, I feel I should reply. How's dat?

McCain did absolutely NOTHING in this situation (or in any other for that matter) which could be construed by a reasonably minded person of either party affiliation to be "low". Period.

What's really sad is that you and some of your Lib-O-RAT buddies twist, turn and spin everything that sways in McCain's favor. It is actually to the point of being pitiful.

Now you want to talk about low - I've got a real life story for you.

This afternoon in the mail, I received a brochure forwarded by the PA Republican Committee with an application for an absentee ballot. Many of my GOP neighbors received the same brochure. On the back of the brochure was a photo of McCain and Palin and whatever printing company printed those brochures sabotaged the pic by covering McCain's mouth with a fang-like image. All of my neighbors who received the brochure had the same image. I immediately called the PRC and relayed the info to them and I also called McCain's HQ here in the Burgh. Both organizations had already received hundreds of calls like mine. I decided to take it one step further and contacted one of the local news stations and they are going to send someone out here to pick up these brochures either today or tomorrow. They were just as horrified as the rest of us were who received the brochure and considering this news source is very liberal, I was pleasantly surprised that they reacted as they did. While I was on the phone with the reporter, she told me that one of McCain's HQ sites in Port Vue, which is a little podunk town in the Pittsburgh area, was brutally vandalized yesterday and the windows were knocked out by bricks. Now - you want to tell me what is LOW?????

I'm not responding to you any longer, Vis, as you are so drunk on the Obama Kool-Aid that you are impossible to engage in a civil discussion with. Carry on.

tony hipchest
10-17-2008, 07:41 PM
Now you want to talk about low - I've got a real life story for you.

.

that is low. i woulda only put the fangs on sarah. :wink02:

while a bit funny it is still wrong. that printing company will probably pay the price for that halloween prank.

as for the bricks through the window of mccains HQ, was there any trash on the lawn or TP?

they may wanna investigate tommy maddox's wife for pulling a stunt to make dems look bad :chuckle: :wink02:

revefsreleets
10-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Look, I didn't know he was a plant, and I don't care for that at all.

But this election is going to be won by money, and Obama is swimming in it. He's advertising everywhere. He's got ads in videogames. He's bombing talk radio in Ohio. He's bombing TV in Ohio. He's become ubiquitous.

What's worse? Having someone in your campaign plant a guy, or lying about accepting public funding, which ultimately has Obama with a STAGGERING advantage of (as of 9/21/08) 454 million raised and 377 million spent versus 240 million raised and 204 million spent by McCain?

Is ANYONE willing to say that and almost 2-1 spending advantage by Obama won't play a HUUUUUUGE role in who wins 11/4?

Preacher
10-17-2008, 08:54 PM
she told me that one of McCain's HQ sites in Port Vue, which is a little podunk town in the Pittsburgh area, was brutally vandalized yesterday and the windows were knocked out by bricks. Now - you want to tell me what is LOW????? .

Its happening in more than one place HTG...

Vandalism in NC. http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/877049.html
BTW, that part in the story about McCain supporters yelling "kill him" Not true... http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakingnews/Secret_Service_says_Kill_him_allegation_unfounded_ .html Just another rumor.

Here is an attack on a McCain supporter (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obama-supporter-assaults-female-mccain-volunteer-in-new-york/)

Another Rock through a window and a computer stolen (http://www.kmbc.com/news/17612049/detail.html?rss=kc1&psp=news)

There is also a story about one of the headquarters in Boston being vandalized.

revefsreleets
10-17-2008, 09:02 PM
Apparently none of these people have been properly "reeducated" about how only the right can hate and inflict violence.

Leftoverhard
10-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Hey guys!

Vandalization is everywhere on both sides. People are crazy. Swastikas? Lame.

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=74080
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=76445&catid=158
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/17585307/detail.html?subid=10100241
http://kob.com/article/stories/S621974.shtml?cat=516

I know of a guy whose little 8x10 Shepard Fairey Obama poster was shot while hanging up in his store window. Double lame.

Back to Joe.........

P.S. HTG, please don't read too much into my sarcastic little statements, I've got election fever. :blah: I feel bad for Joe too. He got sucked into quite a mess and now he's getting a taste of be-careful-what-you-ask-for. Sucky for him.

Preacher
10-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Hey guys!

Vandalization is everywhere on both sides. People are crazy. Swastikas? Lame.

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=74080
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=76445&catid=158
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/17585307/detail.html?subid=10100241
http://kob.com/article/stories/S621974.shtml?cat=516

I know of a guy whose little 8x10 Shepard Fairey Obama poster was shot while hanging up in his store window. Double lame.

.

Yes it is. However, it is not presented that way. How many of the stories I posted have you heard about on the national media? Have you heard about the McCain rally marchers in NY who were just walking down the street being harassed and in some cases, physically assaulted?

Why 4 years ago was nothing said on the national level about gun shots into two Bush headquarters and a group of Union workers breaking into a third while people were in there. One man got hurt and filed charges.

Why is it that the current media cycle is that McCain's words are sparking violence? Why wasn't Kerry's words sparking violence 4 years ago? Why isn't anyone asking for Obama to back off the McCain Bush attacks, when he knows there is so much anger against Bush that people are becoming physical?

Your answer, I believe, is found in the press's 95% voting record for the democrats according to surveys.

The other side to this... many liberals like to portray republicans as racist, white, burn down your house people. Yet, there are just as many on the liberal side... and nothing gets said.

revefsreleets
10-17-2008, 09:43 PM
We shouldn't drift too far off topic here. Joe the Plumber, regardless of how he made it into the spotlight, nonetheless has done his part. It's brought the issue of progressive taxes back into the foreground. The simple fact is, 36% is enough. We don't need to penalize people who have worked hard and prospered an additional amount because we already HAVE a progressive tax system. If we take it on a 10 base system, the guy making 10 grand pays nothing, the guy making a hundred grand pays 36k and the guy making a million pays 360k.

Seems fair to me. That definitely shows a progressive pattern. You make more, you pay more...not to mention that i doubt the guy making 10k a year is paying much in capital gains or luxury taxes...

We are taxed enough. Find another way to fix fiscal problems. Tax foundations. Tax uber-wealthy people who have shelters and loopholes. Tax drug dealers and prostitutes. Tax drugs (illegal, which natch means they need to be legalized). Pro-choice? Tax abortions.

Havik
10-17-2008, 10:59 PM
I am an Obama supporter, I have talked to McCain supporters who have been insulted, harassed, and even threatened for who they support, and it's wrong. In America we are given the right to support who we want without retaliation. That being said, I have been given the same treatment from people I know who hate the candidate simply because of his skin color. I hear Obama being called very racist names and get put down for liking him simply because he is black. It's time to stop all the hate and ignorance, yes I may not like your candidate or agree with them but you have the right to support and vote for them without being harassed or threatened.

Texasteel
10-18-2008, 12:12 AM
I am an Obama supporter, I have talked to McCain supporters who have been insulted, harassed, and even threatened for who they support, and it's wrong. In America we are given the right to support who we want without retaliation. That being said, I have been given the same treatment from people I know who hate the candidate simply because of his skin color. I hear Obama being called very racist names and get put down for liking him simply because he is black. It's time to stop all the hate and ignorance, yes I may not like your candidate or agree with them but you have the right to support and vote for them without being harassed or threatened.


We can't even stay civil on this board, and we're suppose to be with mostly friends here. I'm thinking of one particular person here that I have nerver seen add anything of value, but only throws out cheap one liners that says nothing but but only implies.
I promise you that what we say here will not change the election at all, but can change a friendship for a life time. We need to be more careful.

Preacher
10-18-2008, 12:26 AM
I am an Obama supporter, I have talked to McCain supporters who have been insulted, harassed, and even threatened for who they support, and it's wrong. In America we are given the right to support who we want without retaliation. That being said, I have been given the same treatment from people I know who hate the candidate simply because of his skin color. I hear Obama being called very racist names and get put down for liking him simply because he is black. It's time to stop all the hate and ignorance, yes I may not like your candidate or agree with them but you have the right to support and vote for them without being harassed or threatened.

Here's the deal.

If Obama came out and said... there are people on both sides who go too far out of control, and it needs to stop.. from both sides, period. I would be happy as a clam. However, I have not heard that, and that is the source of my frustration. Either it is wrong for both sides, or it is not wrong for either side. It is just as wrong to try and score political points over it.

Vis
10-19-2008, 09:21 AM
Excuse me? I really think you'd better change your tune pal. Quit trying to bait me with your ridiculous comments, please?

But since you asked, I feel I should reply. How's dat?

McCain did absolutely NOTHING in this situation (or in any other for that matter) which could be construed by a reasonably minded person of either party affiliation to be "low". Period.

What's really sad is that you and some of your Lib-O-RAT buddies twist, turn and spin everything that sways in McCain's favor. It is actually to the point of being pitiful.

Now you want to talk about low - I've got a real life story for you.

This afternoon in the mail, I received a brochure forwarded by the PA Republican Committee with an application for an absentee ballot. Many of my GOP neighbors received the same brochure. On the back of the brochure was a photo of McCain and Palin and whatever printing company printed those brochures sabotaged the pic by covering McCain's mouth with a fang-like image. All of my neighbors who received the brochure had the same image. I immediately called the PRC and relayed the info to them and I also called McCain's HQ here in the Burgh. Both organizations had already received hundreds of calls like mine. I decided to take it one step further and contacted one of the local news stations and they are going to send someone out here to pick up these brochures either today or tomorrow. They were just as horrified as the rest of us were who received the brochure and considering this news source is very liberal, I was pleasantly surprised that they reacted as they did. While I was on the phone with the reporter, she told me that one of McCain's HQ sites in Port Vue, which is a little podunk town in the Pittsburgh area, was brutally vandalized yesterday and the windows were knocked out by bricks. Now - you want to tell me what is LOW?????

I'm not responding to you any longer, Vis, as you are so drunk on the Obama Kool-Aid that you are impossible to engage in a civil discussion with. Carry on.

I asked you a legit question in a response to a post where you called me sheeple. I called you nothing. If my questioned was too pointed maybe it hit close to home. I don't know why you have a problem taking what you dish out but maybe debate isn't for you. Now call me a name again and pass a note in algebra.

fansince'76
10-19-2008, 09:40 AM
I asked you a legit question in a response to a post where you called me sheeple. I called you nothing. If my questioned was too pointed maybe it hit close to home. I don't know why you have a problem taking what you dish out but maybe debate isn't for you. Now call me a name again and pass a note in algebra.

And she answered it by giving you examples of dirty pool from the left, which you then ignored, instead making a sarcastic reference to her being a high school student. Hypocritical much?

Texasteel
10-19-2008, 10:12 AM
I asked you a legit question in a response to a post where you called me sheeple. I called you nothing. If my questioned was too pointed maybe it hit close to home. I don't know why you have a problem taking what you dish out but maybe debate isn't for you. Now call me a name again and pass a note in algebra.

Even in this so called response your still taking personal shots at her. If this is what you call debate I for one don't want anything to do with it.

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 01:06 PM
Now call me a name again and pass a note in algebra.

I'm not the one "passing notes" around here bud. :wink02: You and your Lib-O-Rat buddies, though - well, that's another story isn't it? :wink02:

If my questioned

Pssssssst. While I'm in algebra class, I hope you are in spelling class. :chuckle:

Mosca
10-19-2008, 05:10 PM
"Lib o Rat", HTG? Please. I can't think of anything I've done that would call for being referred to that way... unless you believe that legitimate differences of opinion, and legitimate dissent, are in some way unpatriotic. If you believe that, then please write it out in plain language so we can all see it. If that is who you really are, then please, just say so.

And "passing notes" with a wink? You mean, those of us who are Democrats use PMs, but no one on the Republican side does? Are PMs in some way underhanded? Are we supposed to not use them, or be ashamed of them? If so, please disable the feature; I wouldn't want to feel like I've done something wrong by sending someone else a PM.

You are the very first person who has tried to make me feel dirty for being a member of a different party. I am honestly insulted. You really look DOWN on Democrats, don't you?

Bag me out. I don't feel like playing here any more. This place has lost its value for me. I get nothing out of being here.

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 05:39 PM
"Lib o Rat", HTG? Please. I can't think of anything I've done that would call for being referred to that way... unless you believe that legitimate differences of opinion, and legitimate dissent, are in some way unpatriotic. If you believe that, then please write it out in plain language so we can all see it. If that is who you really are, then please, just say so.

And "passing notes" with a wink? You mean, those of us who are Democrats use PMs, but no one on the Republican side does? Are PMs in some way underhanded? Are we supposed to not use them, or be ashamed of them? If so, please disable the feature; I wouldn't want to feel like I've done something wrong by sending someone else a PM.

You are the very first person who has tried to make me feel dirty for being a member of a different party. I am honestly insulted. You really look DOWN on Democrats, don't you?

Bag me out. I don't feel like playing here any more. This place has lost its value for me. I get nothing out of being here.

If referring to you all playfully as "Lib-O-Rats" is insulting to you, Tom, I don't know what to tell ya. I didn't see you or any of your comrades having a meltdown over another poster's insensitive reference to Sarah Palin's child as a "retard". :doh:

Please don't insult MY intelligence by acting offended over a simple reference when a few of your buddies here (and quite honestly, not you, as you have been respectful for the most part) have called some of the GOP'ers here far worse. Please also don't put words in my mouth - I never inferred that anything you Libs have posted was "unpatriotic". As to your comment about PM's - FYI - I wasn't referring to those. I have no idea what is said in private messages on either side of the coin, unless a member comes to one of us and complains about being harrassed, which has happened on several occasions - again - on both sides of the coin. It is our jobs as Mods to investigate those complaints with every tool available to us, which we have done. No one has been banned because of their political affiliation and/or preference.

I don't look "down" on Demos, Tom - not at all. Admittedly, however, I have lost respect for several people here who took it upon themselves to take personal shots instead of addressing some of our very legitimate questions. If you will recall, I've stated numerous times on this board that I was a Demo and worked within the Demo Party until 2004 when I changed parties because of the direction I saw the party as a whole heading and realizing that my beliefs weren't anywhere near in line with that party any longer. In fact, I don't look down on anyone for their political affiliation. I still have a ton of friends who are Demos, but who I can debate respectfully with and respect MY opinion as I do theirs, something I can't say with regard to this board.

I apologize for you "feeling dirty" with regard to my comments. Please believe that wasn't my intention. Quite frankly, though, the innocent acts around here are getting nauseating. All I can say at this point, Tom, is that if you and your fellow Libs are going to dish it out, you'd best be able to take it too. That doesn't seem to be the case on this board, sadly.

tony hipchest
10-19-2008, 05:45 PM
If referring to you all playfully as "Lib-O-Rats" is insulting to you, Tom, I don't know what to tell ya. I didn't see you or any of your comrades having a meltdown over another poster's insensitive reference to Sarah Palin's child as a "retard". :doh:

.i forget the actual link... but did i call the child a "retard" or refer him as a "retarded child"?

im pretty sure i didnt call him a "retard" since i have been infracted for using that word in the past....

i cant help it the PC police (and pop culture) have chandged the definition of "retarded", and the meaning of the word.

in medical termininology retarded = retarded. its a broad scope, that doesnt just include down's syndrome.

fansince'76
10-19-2008, 06:30 PM
"Lib o Rat", HTG? Please. I can't think of anything I've done that would call for being referred to that way... unless you believe that legitimate differences of opinion, and legitimate dissent, are in some way unpatriotic. If you believe that, then please write it out in plain language so we can all see it. If that is who you really are, then please, just say so.

Is it really any worse than "fascist?"

Ask the people of Canada why the conservatives have now won two elections is a row and how they like traveling to the U.S. to get decent health care.

I swear, the people of this county have no clue about what they think they are supporting.

Then Google fascism

Where was your outrage over that comment?

You really look DOWN on Democrats, don't you?

I don't think she does - no more than you seem to look down on Republicans, anyway.

I believe that there IS a fundamental difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. The Democrats still believe in government of the people, whereas the Republicans despise it. The Republicans have done everything possible to destroy our belief in the system, they have actually created an industry to destroy government of the people, including whole groups dedicated to spreading the belief that liberalism is evil and the media is evil. And people suck it right up, because it is easy to be cynical. It absolves you of responsibility.

IOW, Democrats = the party of truth, justice and the American way, while the Republicans = the Third Reich? That's the way I take this statement, sorry.

My point? The partisan mudslinging has gone BOTH ways in this forum, despite your ability to only see one side of it.

Vis
10-19-2008, 06:37 PM
I don't know at what time in history liberals have stood on the wrong side of social issues. We thought that blacks should sit at the front of the bus, that women should be allowed to vote, that maybe McCarthy was a jerk, that Vietnam was wrong and strip-bombing Cambodia was probably stupid. We've been on the right side of all these issues.
:tt02:

Vis
10-19-2008, 06:48 PM
Shhhhh. I stole that.

Preacher
10-19-2008, 06:53 PM
I don't know at what time in history liberals have stood on the wrong side of social issues. We thought that blacks should sit at the front of the bus, that women should be allowed to vote, that maybe McCarthy was a jerk, that Vietnam was wrong and strip-bombing Cambodia was probably stupid. We've been on the right side of all these issues.
:tt02:



Sure is nice to see in only black and white isn't it?

We could talk all day about dems being on the wrong side of many issues, including the destruction of a million children a year in their mother's womb.

However, those who are able to see both sides, will see both sides. Those that can only see one side of the argument, will continue to do so.

revefsreleets
10-19-2008, 07:16 PM
Abe Lincoln was a Republican. He was on the right side of a pretty big social issue.

I believe abortion should be legal, but rare. Obama is DEFINITELY on the wrong side of this social issue if you examine his stance on born alive abortions (Not his new stance, but his recorded stance)

Democrats might be a little off on social welfare by NOT encouraging people to get off the government teat.

Socialized medicine is surely a slippery slope.

"Hate Crimes" are retarded. Dead wrong on that one.

The whole "Time out, Dr Spock" mentality of education and child rearing goes against 10,000 previously pretty successful years of human evolution.

I can go on....

silver & black
10-19-2008, 08:06 PM
Abe Lincoln was a Republican. He was on the right side of a pretty big social issue.

I believe abortion should be legal, but rare. Obama is DEFINITELY on the wrong side of this social issue if you examine his stance on born alive abortions (Not his new stance, but his recorded stance)

Democrats might be a little off on social welfare by NOT encouraging people to get off the government teat.

Socialized medicine is surely a slippery slope.

"Hate Crimes" are retarded. Dead wrong on that one.

The whole "Time out, Dr Spock" mentality of education and child rearing goes against 10,000 previously pretty successful years of human evolution.

I can go on....

Please do... I like where you're going.

X-Terminator
10-19-2008, 08:10 PM
"Lib o Rat", HTG? Please. I can't think of anything I've done that would call for being referred to that way... unless you believe that legitimate differences of opinion, and legitimate dissent, are in some way unpatriotic. If you believe that, then please write it out in plain language so we can all see it. If that is who you really are, then please, just say so.

And "passing notes" with a wink? You mean, those of us who are Democrats use PMs, but no one on the Republican side does? Are PMs in some way underhanded? Are we supposed to not use them, or be ashamed of them? If so, please disable the feature; I wouldn't want to feel like I've done something wrong by sending someone else a PM.

You are the very first person who has tried to make me feel dirty for being a member of a different party. I am honestly insulted. You really look DOWN on Democrats, don't you?

Bag me out. I don't feel like playing here any more. This place has lost its value for me. I get nothing out of being here.

Over the years, conservatives have been called fascists, have been accused of wanting to starve children, wanting to kick old people out of their homes, of wanting Medicare to "wither on the vine," wanting seniors to eat dog food, of not caring about the poor and sick, wanting to nuke everyone in the world, among other things...

And you're getting offended over the term "Lib-O-Rat?"

Sorry, but you get no sympathy from me. Not after all of the crap that liberals have thrown at conservatives over the years that have gotten nothing more than a nod and wink from other liberals.

revefsreleets
10-19-2008, 08:17 PM
Abe Lincoln was a Republican. He was on the right side of a pretty big social issue.

I believe abortion should be legal, but rare. Obama is DEFINITELY on the wrong side of this social issue if you examine his stance on born alive abortions (Not his new stance, but his recorded stance)

Democrats might be a little off on social welfare by NOT encouraging people to get off the government teat.

Socialized medicine is surely a slippery slope.

"Hate Crimes" are retarded. Dead wrong on that one.

The whole "Time out, Dr Spock" mentality of education and child rearing goes against 10,000 previously pretty successful years of human evolution.

I can go on....

Please do... I like where you're going.

My brain hurts...I need to drink some beer and watch some football and mellow...

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 08:19 PM
We thought that blacks should sit at the front of the bus, that women should be allowed to vote, that maybe McCarthy was a jerk, that Vietnam was wrong and strip-bombing Cambodia was probably stupid. We've been on the right side of all these issues.
:tt02:

If I remember correctly, Vis, while our initial involvement in Vietnam began during the Eisenhower administration, it escalated during JFK's watch prior to his unfortunate and tragic assassination and further escalated to an all out war during the administration of Lyndon Johnson. The war began to crumble during the Nixon years and officially ended under President Ford's watch.

Vis
10-19-2008, 09:53 PM
Sure is nice to see in only black and white isn't it?

We could talk all day about dems being on the wrong side of many issues, including the destruction of a million children a year in their mother's womb.

However, those who are able to see both sides, will see both sides. Those that can only see one side of the argument, will continue to do so.


Give me the other side of the blacks on the bus or the other side of Brown v. Board of Ed., or the other side of Loving v. Virginia, or the other side of Griswold v. Connecticut. Fill up a blue book.

cubanstogie
10-19-2008, 10:52 PM
Give me the other side of the blacks on the bus or the other side of Brown v. Board of Ed., or the other side of Loving v. Virginia, or the other side of Griswold v. Connecticut. Fill up a blue book.

I am sure liberals gave up their seats in front to the blacks. lol

tony hipchest
10-19-2008, 10:59 PM
And you're getting offended over the term "Lib-O-Rat?"

Sorry, but you get no sympathy from me. .

im offended that htg would lump us all in as "rats". sorry, but youre not the only one who has defended her on this board.

X-Terminator
10-19-2008, 11:02 PM
im offended that htg would lump us all in as "rats". sorry, but youre not the only one who has defended her on this board.

That's not what she's doing, but OK. Plus, if you really knew A) where she got it from, and B) the context she uses it in, you would NOT be offended. You obviously don't know either, and it ain't up to me to explain. So go ahead and be offended.

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 11:11 PM
im offended that htg would lump us all in as "rats". sorry, but youre not the only one who has defended her on this board.

Tony - as you well know, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself, as I did earlier in my reply to Tom. :wink02:

You're offended? Why do I feel like I've just won the Powerball? :wink02::chuckle:

Like Tom, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. It is simply a figure of speech, just like "McCaniacs", "Rublican" and all of the other little terms of endearment used to describe us GOP'ers around here. Do you see any of us complaining?

Do Ben proud. Have a nice piece of cheese. :hug:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X17GRJH8L._AA280_.jpg

steelwall
10-19-2008, 11:12 PM
ummmm......... because that's his name. Joe Wurzelbacher.
Actually his name is Sam, and he has no plumbers license.

Preacher
10-19-2008, 11:15 PM
Give me the other side of the blacks on the bus or the other side of Brown v. Board of Ed., or the other side of Loving v. Virginia, or the other side of Griswold v. Connecticut. Fill up a blue book.

First, it is quite smug to think "conservatives" are on the "other side" of those issues"

What you MAY have is conservatives that wanted it done through the SENATE and HOUSE, instead of the court system. How is that WRONG? I think it is right, to demand elected officials to take stand once in a while.

It also betrays a way of thinking that conservatives want blacks to sit on the BACK of the bus.

Back then, there were conservatives AND liberals who were against integration.

Matter of fact, there were many LIBERALS in that time that were for segregation, or don't you remember George Wallace, "I tried to talk about good roads and good schools and all these things that have been part of my career, and nobody listened. And then I began talking about ni##ers, and they stomped the floor." Hey.. he was a moderate, even liberal judge according to some, "African American attorney J. L. Chestnut remembers George C. Wallace as "the most liberal judge that I had ever practiced law in front of" and as a Southern judge with moderate -- some even said liberal -- views of segregation and race relations. This is not the George Wallace that most Americans remember." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wallace/sfeature/quotes.html

How about the liberals who betrayed American soldiers in Vietnam like Jane Fonda? Was she on the right side when she went to N. Vietnam spoke out against the U.S.? When she came home and said our POW's were treated very well?

BTW... the liberals were on the wrong side of Reagan and the fall of the USSR, on the wrong side of the liberation of Kuwait, on the wrong side of seeing a million lives killed every year in the mother's womb, on the wrong side of drug laws (come walk in my shoes with the families I deal with before anyone rants about drugs being legal), etc. etc. etc.

See, we can both pick out the issues we want and point to them. THAT is what I meant about seeing things black and white.

Honestly, the liberal/conservative labels you lay out now didn't crystalize until the early 70's and finalized in the early 80's.

Those positions are about to change again.

X-Terminator
10-19-2008, 11:16 PM
Tony - as you well know, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself, as I did earlier in my reply to Tom. :wink02:

You're offended? Why do I feel like I've just won the Powerball? :wink02::chuckle:

Like Tom, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. It is simply a figure of speech, just like "McCaniacs", "Rublican" and all of the other little terms of endearment used to describe us GOP'ers around here. Do you see any of us complaining?

I've even seen liberals refer to conservatives as "cancervatives." And again, it got nothing more than a nod and wink from other liberals. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your use of "Lib-O-Rat," when the very context you use it in isn't the least bit offensive.

Preacher
10-19-2008, 11:18 PM
I've even seen liberals refer to conservatives as "cancervatives." Talk about an offensive term - I think that certainly qualifies. And again, it got nothing more than a nod and wink from other liberals. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your use of "Lib-O-Rat," when the very context you use it in isn't the least bit offensive.


Offensive...

how about RepubliKKKans. I have seen that one a few times, though thankfully not here.

X-Terminator
10-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Offensive...

how about RepubliKKKans. I have seen that one a few times, though thankfully not here.

Seen that on other boards and in newsgroups. Countless times.

Preacher
10-19-2008, 11:33 PM
Seen that on other boards and in newsgroups. Countless times.


Yep.. just makes me shake my head.

guess they don't understand that even though I am a conservative, I am married to a jew (yes, one that now believes in jesus, but that doesn't change her heritage at all), and my best friend, who is also a conservative, is married to a black lady (and I was VERY proud to be their best man at the wedding).

tony hipchest
10-19-2008, 11:35 PM
Tony - as you well know, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself, as I did earlier in my reply to Tom. :wink02:

You're offended? Why do I feel like I've just won the Powerball? :wink02::chuckle:



:chuckle: sorry but you dont get the "cash now" or over "20 year incriments option". :tt02:

you can definitely speak for yourself. :thumbsup:

im still concerned about poor ol joe the plummer who has already admitted he will be better off with obamas tax plan. :wink02:

tony hipchest
10-19-2008, 11:43 PM
I've even seen liberals refer to conservatives as "cancervatives." And again, it got nothing more than a nod and wink from other liberals. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your use of "Lib-O-Rat," when the very context you use it in isn't the least bit offensive.your support is all nice and sweet but a mod is expected to set the tone for a board.

some of the blanket terms being thrown around here make me think jeremy is still a member.

BUT.... "when in Rome".....

"rub a dub dub lick'ins" :laughing:

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 11:44 PM
im still concerned about poor ol joe the plummer who has already admitted he will be better off with obamas tax plan. :wink02:

Did you ever stop and think that maybe Poor old Joe the Plumber just might not agree with Obama's stances (errrr, I mean flip flopping :wink02:) on other issues important to him?

Personally, if I agreed with McCain's tax plan and didn't align with him on much of anything else, he sure as hell wouldn't be getting my vote. With me, supporting a candidate for the highest office in the land isn't all about the almighty dollar. :chuckle:

HometownGal
10-19-2008, 11:55 PM
your support is all nice and sweet but a mod is expected to set the tone for a board.



A Mod is also expected to infract and/or ban those who harrass and annoy others whether it be on the open board, via PM or rep, so I guess I'm neglecting my duties there too. :rolleyes:

C'mon Tony - you are being ridiculous here. I will NOT apologize for using a term loosely when you know damned well that's all it was.

If we Mods are supposed to set the "tone" for the board, where's your "Supporter" tag, hmmmm? :wink02::flap:

If you have a problem with me as a person, please take it to a PM. If you have a problem with me as a Mod, please contact Mike either via PM or using the webmaster email addy. I feel both Gary and I have done a damned good job around here giving countless hours of OUR free time to moderate this board, most recently canceling plans I had made to take shifts with Gary to rid this board of all of the almost 600 spammers and bots we were inundated with. If you feel you can do a better job, knock yourself out.

tony hipchest
10-19-2008, 11:57 PM
Did you ever stop and think that maybe Poor old Joe the Plumber just might not agree with Obama's stances (errrr, I mean flip flopping :wink02:) on other issues important to him?

Personally, if I agreed with McCain's tax plan and didn't align with him on much of anything else, he sure as hell wouldn't be getting my vote. With me, supporting a candidate for the highest office in the land isn't all about the almighty dollar. :chuckle:i respect anyones vote. for instance, if someone says they are voting republican over democrat just because of the different stance on abortion, then theres nothing i can argue. :noidea:

the whole "joe the plummer' deal is a total misrepresentation (and fraud) though.

X-Terminator
10-19-2008, 11:58 PM
your support is all nice and sweet but a mod is expected to set the tone for a board.

some of the blanket terms being thrown around here make me think jeremy is still a member.

BUT.... "when in Rome".....

"rub a dub dub lick'ins" :laughing:

Don't know how many times it's been pointed out that when mods post, they are posting as regular members, and therefore can voice their opinions as strongly as anyone else.

The throwing out of blanket terms has been done by both sides. But one thing you still don't seem to get about the "Lib-O-Rat" thing is that it is a JOKE TERM. It is not and was not supposed to be taken literally, because she was not calling Dems/libs "rats." It isn't even in the same neighborhood as some of the other terms above that have been pointed out, terms that truly ARE offensive.

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 12:03 AM
i respect anyones vote. for instance, if someone says they are voting republican over democrat just because of the different stance on abortion, then theres nothing i can argue. :noidea:

the whole "joe the plummer' deal is a total misrepresentation (and fraud) though.

I have stated many times on this board why I am voting for McCain - can you respect that? Two of the biggest reasons are (a) homeland security and (b) I am very pro-life.

The "Joe the Plumber" deal is NOT a misrepresentation, nor is it a fraud. He is a real person with real concerns who is going to vote however he sees fit which is his privilege.

tony hipchest
10-20-2008, 12:09 AM
I have stated many times on this board why I am voting for McCain - can you respect that? .see the post you quoted.

of course i can respect that. can you respect that anyone else is voting for obama. if so , then we are cool. :drink:

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 12:19 AM
see the post you quoted.

of course i can respect that. can you respect that anyone else is voting for obama. if so , then we are cool. :drink:

My disrespect in these political threads has never been (and never will be) because a person chooses to vote for Obama. That is their right . . . their privilege. My claws come out when my support of McCain is ridiculed (as it has been many times), I am insulted and demeaned because of my support of McCain (many times also) and attempts are made to make me look like some sort of anti-Christ because I choose NOT to support Obama. I've said this before and this is the last time I will say it - I don't ask that people agree with me on any particular subject. I love a good (and fair) debate. I simply ask that my posts be respected and debated constructively instead of destructively, as has been the case around here simply because I (and others) strongly support the McCain/Palin ticket. :drink:

Preacher
10-20-2008, 12:33 AM
http://www.dropline.net/cats/images/is_it_safe_to_look_now.jpg



Just couldn't resist..

thought the picture was too cute.

fansince'76
10-20-2008, 01:08 AM
your support is all nice and sweet but a mod is expected to set the tone for a board.

some of the blanket terms being thrown around here make me think jeremy is still a member.

IOW, a mod isn't allowed to express their opinions? Or is it that a mod just has to sit back and take it when they get shit shoveled at them? Wrong answer, in both cases.

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-20-2008, 06:30 AM
im still concerned about poor ol joe the plummer who has already admitted he will be better off with obamas tax plan. :wink02:

Not entirely true....if you saw the interview he was very sceptical....His EXACT words were..."I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts,"

Joe was also concerned about the "fines" that Obama has promised to small business owners that cannot provide medical insurance to their employers...

I know that Obama said on Wednesday that..." I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there. Here's your fine - zero."

But to date Obama has not defined what he thinks is a "small business". Meaning there's no way for voters to measure who gets these exemptions.

"Joe" and other Americans would also be fined if he didnt have "proper" coverage for their children....in accordance with what Obama thinks to be "proper",

“I would sign them up in school in the same way they would get inoculated. I would fine parents if form some reason they refused. I am happy to be very clear on how we would enforce the mandate,”
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/28/485042.aspx

I really am concerned about the future of America when I see the distinct possibility of :
1) Wealth distribution (in the name of patriotism)
2) Government Healthcare Mandates
3) Fines on small businesses and Families for non-compliance
4) 750 Billion in new spending by the same person promising tax relief.
5) Dishonesty about involvment with ACORN when records show that he was a Trainer for the organization.. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/datelinedc/s_488184.html

revefsreleets
10-20-2008, 09:05 AM
I saw the question that he imposed as a hypothetical.

Calling him a "plant" is a bit of a red herring since both sides employ the exact same tactics.

Leftoverhard
10-20-2008, 12:56 PM
I've been really interested in what Tony said about Palin's kid because he's been bombarded with it by a number of you guys lately.....was it that bad?
Well, I searched it and come on! For conservatives, you guys sure seem to love wearing the P.C police costume.
He said "i am so sick of hearing about palins retarded child. well not really that, but her being given sainthood like she is mother teresa or something."
He was talking about a mentally retarded child - what's the problem?
While searching, I found that someone who has called Tony out for this very thing - I won't say who, because that's not important - called a key player from the left side of this campaign a "tard".
See? Petty. It's all absurd.
Anyway, I thought there was a moratorium on this kind of stuff. lol, you know, we're supposed to try and act civil...

fansince'76
10-20-2008, 01:17 PM
I've been really interested in what Tony said about Palin's kid because he's been bombarded with it by a number of you guys lately.....was it that bad?
Well, I searched it and come on! For conservatives, you guys sure seem to love wearing the P.C police costume.
He said "i am so sick of hearing about palins retarded child. well not really that, but her being given sainthood like she is mother teresa or something."
He was talking about a mentally retarded child - what's the problem?
While searching, I found that someone who has called Tony out for this very thing - I won't say who, because that's not important - called a key player from the left side of this campaign a "tard".
See? Petty. It's all absurd.

Yep, nothing at all hypocritical about getting one's nose out of joint and making a federal case (which went on for about 3 pages of this thread) out of the obviously joking term "Lib-o-rat," right?

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-20-2008, 01:27 PM
I've been really interested in what Tony said about Palin's kid because he's been bombarded with it by a number of you guys lately.....was it that bad?
Well, I searched it and come on! For conservatives, you guys sure seem to love wearing the P.C police costume.
He said "i am so sick of hearing about palins retarded child. well not really that, but her being given sainthood like she is mother teresa or something."
He was talking about a mentally retarded child - what's the problem?
While searching, I found that someone who has called Tony out for this very thing - I won't say who, because that's not important - called a key player from the left side of this campaign a "tard".
See? Petty. It's all absurd.
Anyway, I thought there was a moratorium on this kind of stuff. lol, you know, we're supposed to try and act civil...

SOOOO...you took the time to research....and then try and compare and justify calling a downs syndrome infant retarded...all of which happened before the moratorium....and then decide to make a flaming post.

all in the name of being...civil?

seriously...WTF is your point except that you couldnt abide by the truce?

If you want to drag me back into your little spat...please let me know.

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 01:27 PM
I've been really interested in what Tony said about Palin's kid because he's been bombarded with it by a number of you guys lately.....was it that bad?
Well, I searched it and come on! For conservatives, you guys sure seem to love wearing the P.C police costume.
He said "i am so sick of hearing about palins retarded child. well not really that, but her being given sainthood like she is mother teresa or something."
He was talking about a mentally retarded child - what's the problem?
While searching, I found that someone who has called Tony out for this very thing - I won't say who, because that's not important - called a key player from the left side of this campaign a "tard".
See? Petty. It's all absurd.
Anyway, I thought there was a moratorium on this kind of stuff. lol, you know, we're supposed to try and act civil...

Imho, Leftover, it WAS that bad and I was shocked when I read the comment. I'm not saying necessarily that the offensive post was "altered" via edit, but I, as well as others, clearly remember the use of the word "retard", not "retarded". Who knows- Gary or I may have deleted it. I honestly can't remember.

If you are referring to me, I didn't call anyone's special needs child a "tard". I was referring to the author of the article which began as the subject of that particular thread. It was a cryptic comment and nothing more. Wow - you are really trying to stretch this, aren't you? Talk about being "petty". :doh: My post is below.

Bwa ha ha ha!!!!!

One name makes that statement as idiotic as the tard who wrote it.

Jeremiah Wright.


As far as "calling Tony out" - I didn't call him out. Go back and read my post directed to Mosca - I didn't mention anyone's name. Tony called himself out in a subsequent post. :chuckle::wink02:

Leftoverhard
10-20-2008, 01:38 PM
Yep, nothing at all hypocritical about getting one's nose out of joint and making a federal case (which went on for about 3 pages of this thread) out of the obviously joking term "Lib-o-rat," right?

Hey seriously, do you really wanna go there?
HTG's pet name for us liberals (although I think the term is used a little erroniously seeing that not every left leaning person here is liberal) on the board is lib-o-rats. Ok. Slightly offensive but it's use was only called out yesterday after being used for a long time. Someone clearly got irked. To defend that, a couple of conservatives from this board decided to site other message boards or just liberals in general when trying to come up with names we (you know the "liberals" on SF) call conservatives. That is what we call reaching where I come from. I don't think I have ever called anyone a name here and I haven't seen any other "lib-o-rat" do that either. By and large, I have tried my best to conform to the loose guidelines of the recent moratorium on partisanship but basically what that has meant is to sit back and let the conservatives rip on Obama and his supporters without getting involved. Fun.

revefsreleets
10-20-2008, 01:39 PM
Really, we've veered WAY off track and are really mired in the muck and minutiea now.

fansince'76
10-20-2008, 01:41 PM
Hey seriously, do you really wanna go there?

I have no problem with "going there" - the folks that sit to the Left of center have taken MORE than their fair share of potshots at the other side of the aisle and have been quick to complain and play the martyr when it's gotten thrown back at them. Fact is, BOTH sides around here have done their share of mudslinging.

tony hipchest
10-20-2008, 01:52 PM
fansince, when put in context it didnt seem like much of a joke to me.

What's really sad is that you and some of your Lib-O-RAT buddies twist, turn and spin everything that sways in McCain's favor. It is actually to the point of being pitiful.

I'm not responding to you any longer, Vis, as you are so drunk on the Obama Kool-Aid that you are impossible to engage in a civil discussion with. Carry on.its obvious htg was addressing vis, but it seemed like she was tearing down the rest of the left leaning voters along with him. and that is fine. im definitely not the one to tell mods how to post and i have no issues to take up with the board owner.

as for my "set the tone" comment, it was really much more of an innocent statement as opposed to the damning condemnation its being made out to be.

let me explain-

a week or 2 ago many of us posters who participate in these political discussions took it upon ourselves to let bygones be bygones, to try to treat others with more respect, to post more civil articles, to not resort to calling names or fanning flames, etc....

i can only speak for myself but i think we all collectively dedcided to do what is ultimately for the best of the board, and of course to help make yours and mariannes job easier.

i think its evident to anyone who reads these threads that recently they have had a much more pleasant tone. with less than 3 weeks to go, i hope it remains as such.

then come january, i hope we are all cheering a steelers superbowl run and not bemoaning either/or's presidential inauguration.

:tt02:

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-20-2008, 02:03 PM
Hey seriously, do you really wanna go there?
,,,. I don't think I have ever called anyone a name here

Since digging up old posts seems to be the order of the day....


When you make statements calling liberals socialists, you highlight your ignorance

Hey, Hammer of the Gods, look over there, it's a shiny thing!


Glass houses....rocks...you know the deal.

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 02:10 PM
http://www.lordclover.com/conor/chuck.gif

Again - I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE for a reference that wasn't any worse than being called a "McCaniac" or some of the other pet names you leftists have called us GOP'ers in recent months. Did you see me get my panties in a bunch when those references were made? I actually chuckled over some of them and repped a few of you on the left for some of your comments. I know from experience with Demos, however, that for the most part they can't deal with having the shit they shovel shoveled back. Geez people - grow a spine. :doh:

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 02:13 PM
im definitely not the one to tell mods how to post and i have no issues to take up with the board owner.


For the LAST TIME . . . . :banging::banging::banging:

I am a regular member before I am a Mod and 99% of the time, I post as a regular member just like you, which is my right.

tony hipchest
10-20-2008, 02:17 PM
Imho, Leftover, it WAS that bad and I was shocked when I read the comment. I'm not saying necessarily that the offensive post was "altered" via edit, but I, as well as others, clearly remember the use of the word "retard", not "retarded". Who knows- Gary or I may have deleted it. I honestly can't remember.

:i didnt call myself out. im not ashamed of what i wrote, and i got nothing to hide. seriously, you guys may think smearing me and trying to drag me through the mud will make yourselves look better but it wont.

why would i even say this? it doesnt make any sense and isnt even proper english. its gramatically incorrect-
"i am so sick of hearing about palins retard child

why the HELL would i slur an innocent baby? cause ive shown that im that type of guy? :rolleyes:

thanks for the benefit of the doubt. i employ several individuals who are mentally retarded. ive attended all the disability awareness courses and sensitivity training.

i think alot of people who remember it that way were just itching to see something that wasnt there based on the heated nature of the discussion.

i dont recall being dragged through the mud then. only a month and a half later based on someones recollection of words on a screen. if memory serves me correct, i've only used that word once on this board and i was calling Hardwork a retard :chuckle:. i was infracted for it, by his savior LITP.

X-Terminator
10-20-2008, 02:28 PM
Hey seriously, do you really wanna go there?
HTG's pet name for us liberals (although I think the term is used a little erroniously seeing that not every left leaning person here is liberal) on the board is lib-o-rats. Ok. Slightly offensive but it's use was only called out yesterday after being used for a long time. Someone clearly got irked. To defend that, a couple of conservatives from this board decided to site other message boards or just liberals in general when trying to come up with names we (you know the "liberals" on SF) call conservatives. That is what we call reaching where I come from. I don't think I have ever called anyone a name here and I haven't seen any other "lib-o-rat" do that either. By and large, I have tried my best to conform to the loose guidelines of the recent moratorium on partisanship but basically what that has meant is to sit back and let the conservatives rip on Obama and his supporters without getting involved. Fun.

You know, you could just simply call me out by name, since you indirectly did anyway. And oh BTW, I am NOT a conservative. I'm not even a Republican. And again, you are getting your panties in a bunch over a term that doesn't even mean what you THINK it means, nor is it what you THINK you are being called. It's as simple as that.

Leftoverhard
10-20-2008, 03:35 PM
You know, you could just simply call me out by name, since you indirectly did anyway. And oh BTW, I am NOT a conservative. I'm not even a Republican. And again, you are getting your panties in a bunch over a term that doesn't even mean what you THINK it means, nor is it what you THINK you are being called. It's as simple as that.

Please find the post where I got my panties in a bunch over lib-o-rats. Never did. Never even wore panties. This has to stop. I truly try to only say things here on this board that I would say to any of your faces - I don't feel like that sentiment is shared by a great many of you. It's either one way or the other. It's clear that courtesy and raw emotion don't pair well on the internet. So, if you want to call names, be prepared to get called names. I for one think we can all rise above that type of behavior.

cubanstogie
10-20-2008, 04:29 PM
you can't force people to have "class", they have it or don't. A lot of times people use words that makes there post lose credibility whether it was credible or not is a different story. I say give people enough rope and see who hangs themself, then again I have thick skin and don't take this crap personally. Bottom line is Libs and Cons politicians are both profanityfilterprofanityfilterprofanityfilterprofa nityfilterprofanityfilters who will do anything to get elected, name calling isn't going to change that fact. Neither one of these candidates will do half of what they say they will. Is it really worth bickering over. I will admit it is entertaining at times though. just my .02.

HometownGal
10-20-2008, 04:51 PM
i didnt call myself out. im not ashamed of what i wrote, and i got nothing to hide. seriously, you guys may think smearing me and trying to drag me through the mud will make yourselves look better but it wont.



Tony - yes you did call yourself out just yesterday. I didn't mention your name specifically in my rebuttal to Tom - YOU posted shortly after I did and called your own self out. :banging: No one is trying to "smear" you or "drag you through the mud". I'm just stating a simple fact. Again (using my best Bill Clinton mimic) - I DID NOT SLEEP WITH THAT WOMAN.......errrrrr, I mean.......CALL YOU OUT. :chuckle:

Psssst - I don't post my thoughts on this board or make a statement in real life to make myself look better. God didn't put me on this earth to win a personality contest. Though I would rather inflict pain on myself than to intentionally hurt another person, I am human after all. If a poison dart is tossed at me, it's going to get tossed back. Very simple, really. I think anyone with any degree of self-respect would do the same.

why would i even say this? it doesnt make any sense and isnt even proper english. its gramatically incorrect-


why the HELL would i slur an innocent baby? cause ive shown that im that type of guy? :rolleyes:

thanks for the benefit of the doubt. i employ several individuals who are mentally retarded. ive attended all the disability awareness courses and sensitivity training.



We are getting nowhere with this argument, hipcheese. You say potato, I say potata, you say tomato, I say tomata. Obama says Pohk-i-ston and I say Pak-is-tan. Palin says "nu-cu-lar" and I say "nu-cle-ar". :wink02: Another member recently called my attention to the statement in question and I somewhat recall it. As I stated above, however, the post is gone - possibly deleted by either Gary or myself for offensive content, as I clearly remember people complaining to me about it via PM. If you say you didn't make the offensive reference, you get the benefit of the doubt, as I don't believe you are a dishonest person.

i think alot of people who remember it that way were just itching to see something that wasnt there based on the heated nature of the discussion.

i dont recall being dragged through the mud then. only a month and a half later based on someones recollection of words on a screen.

Well - I've been referencing "Dem-O-RATS" and "Lib-O-RATS" for about the same length of time - probably longer, yet no one whined about it until yesterday. :scratchchin: I could take the time to explain the meaning behind my reference of "Lib-O-RATS", but why bother? It will just be twisted and spun like a web, so it isn't worth the aggravation or my time.

if memory serves me correct, i've only used that word once on this board and i was calling Hardwork a retard :chuckle:. i was infracted for it, by his savior LITP

LMAO!!!! :laughing::toofunny: I remember that well!

Look, Tony - I respected you here at SF almost from day one and I think I have treated you very fairly. I don't like this pointless wrangling between us - neither of us is going to change our vote for the candidate we each support and I respect that - honest Injun I do. I just wanted the same courtesy in return. At the risk of sounding redundant, however (which I apologize for) -while I do enjoy a good debate, I don't enjoy pissing contests. Never have, never will. On the flip side of the coin, though, if I am being unfairly jousted and maligned for having a differing opinion, my claws are going to come out and I'm going to scratch. I used to be a wallflower and fairly timid, but after my divorce many moons ago, I had to learn to speak up for myself and my children and stand on my own two feet. If there was anything positive coming out of that divorce, it was just that. :thumbsup:

Anywho - I think we need to restore this thread to its original intent. :drink:

tony hipchest
10-20-2008, 05:46 PM
Anywho - I think we need to restore this thread to its original intent. :drink:

:hug: yeah! making fun of Joe Dirt... :doh: i mean Joe Plumb & Plumber. :laughing:

(and i'll try not to call you a mod no more :wink:)

Dino 6 Rings
10-20-2008, 05:54 PM
Joe the Plumber is simply guilty of catching Obama on tape talking about socialism.

"Spread the wealth around"

Those 4 words are enough for me to be fearful of Obama and Biden getting into the Whitehouse with a democrat controlled Congress.

The idea of giving tax credits to people that don't pay any federal income tax should scare the heck out of every single person that has ever filled out an IRS form.

nearly 30% of the people in his country don't pay taxes. That means, come tax time, they will get a "credit" Meaning. Uncle Sam will send them a check, for hundreds of dollars, maybe thousands, for doing nothing. They will get a check, that you and I pay extra for. What did they do to earn this check? Not Succeed.

tony hipchest
10-21-2008, 09:46 PM
The idea of giving tax credits to people that don't pay any federal income tax should scare the heck out of every single person that has ever filled out an IRS form.

nearly 30% of the people in his country don't pay taxes. That means, come tax time, they will get a "credit" Meaning. Uncle Sam will send them a check, for hundreds of dollars, maybe thousands, for doing nothing. They will get a check, that you and I pay extra for. What did they do to earn this check? Not Succeed.you make it sound like 30% of our population are deadbeat bloodsuckers who mooch off the system, and have never held a job in their life.

please correct me if i am wrong cause i honestly dont know, but does a veteran of a war who returns w/o a limb and collects 100% disability pay taxes on their monthly check? and the retirees?

as far as i know, my grandfather doesnt pay taxes. as the youngest man to ever become cheif in the AF (at the time) and someone who has bagged and tagged far too many bodies in viet nam and shipped them home on cargo planes to their mothers and fathers, i would say he has paid his dues and was quite "successful" in serving this nation.

either way, i dont know what good looking down the nose at 1/3 of our population does. plenty of well-to-do people absolutely love having laborers at $5.75 an hour.

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-22-2008, 04:04 AM
:hug: yeah! making fun of Joe Dirt... :doh: i mean Joe Plumb & Plumber. :laughing:

(and i'll try not to call you a mod no more :wink:)

What is this guy guilty off ...other than calling Obama out?....If the shoe was on the other foot there would be an outcry from the left about this working guys crucifiction.

I guess "tolerance" is only needed if one is on the "correct" side.