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Leftoverhard
10-21-2008, 04:07 PM
Thoughts? I'm surprised how under the radar Timmons' 10 tackles and 2 sacks went last Sunday. Impressive.
Sunday was an eye opener on how that dude should properly be used.

Preacher
10-21-2008, 04:10 PM
Wait a second...

Isn't he that guy that everyone around here was saying was a bust?

Hmmm.

fansince'76
10-21-2008, 04:16 PM
Wait a second...

Isn't he that guy that everyone around here was saying was a bust?

Hmmm.

Beat me to it! :chuckle:

Makaveli
10-21-2008, 04:19 PM
Wait a second...

Isn't he that guy that everyone around here was saying was a bust?

Hmmm.

I've always said it and i stand firmly behind it. Timmons was, is and will always be vastly overated. Even more so (though slightly) than Rashard, the punter (sepulveda), Mundy and relatively any selection that Tomlin has had anything to do with. (I give Colbert the credit for Woodley as it was the kind of selection we have made for years now)

The Duke
10-21-2008, 04:20 PM
BUST!!

They played mostly nickle defense, and timmons paid off with 10 stops and 2 sacks, not bad at all. foote was barely in the action, 1 tackle I think

I did see timmons beaten on a couple of passes, think it was against 6'4 chris henry. could still improve in that area

3 sacks in 6 games, not bad for a non-starter

Preacher
10-21-2008, 04:35 PM
I've always said it and i stand firmly behind it. Timmons was, is and will always be vastly overated. Even more so (though slightly) than Rashard, the punter (sepulveda), Mundy and relatively any selection that Tomlin has had anything to do with. (I give Colbert the credit for Woodley as it was the kind of selection we have made for years now)

So in essence, all bad picks are Tomlins... and any good picks, are Colberts?

and if it is inbetween, then it is a Tomlin pick.. and over rated?


Nice to see you have it all figured out...

Makaveli
10-21-2008, 05:09 PM
So in essence, all bad picks are Tomlins... and any good picks, are Colberts?

and if it is inbetween, then it is a Tomlin pick.. and over rated?


Nice to see you have it all figured out...

By no means is Colbert a "guru" or "dead on". But the fact of the matter is,.. (even in the face of any childish sarcasm) ,...our draft classes since Tomlin has taken over have been completely out of character for him. (Colbert)

And have made little or no sense, even when they attempt to draft for "need". Meaning even when the latter is the case the front office seems to be making considerable reaches. Almost as if to exclude any actual elite talent.

Texasteel
10-21-2008, 05:13 PM
Hey, I'm not going to tell you that I wasn't wondering a bit. I did say a couple of months ago that if he didn't do in this year he may be a bust.
Well he is doing it this year and if you want me to eat crow, I'll swallow it feathers and all.

Preacher
10-21-2008, 06:04 PM
By no means is Colbert a "guru" or "dead on". But the fact of the matter is,.. (even in the face of any childish sarcasm) ,...our draft classes since Tomlin has taken over have been completely out of character for him. (Colbert)

And have made little or no sense, even when they attempt to draft for "need". Meaning even when the latter is the case the front office seems to be making considerable reaches. Almost as if to exclude any actual elite talent.

Please name an elite talent that was actually elite in years 1-3 of their career... and still elite in years 6-10?

BTW, that wasn't childish sarcasm. That was incredulity at the circular reasoning in your last post. You have just proposed a method of observation by which your presuppositions MUST come true.

You, in fact, have no idea whether Timmons is going to be a big star or not.

BTW... it seems that Colbert's hands were all over the trade up to get Sep. last year as a punter.

When the other guy got picked, it got your attention?

Kevin Colbert: It cut our chances in half. To Mike's point, I had an experience in Detroit where we traded up in the second round for Jason Hanson and I'm not saying that this kid can have the same career that Jason has had. If you like those guys, there are not many of them and it is a situation where Chris (Gardocki) has been great for us, but Chris is also getting up there.

http://news.steelers.com/article/76080/

Now let's look at late round talent over the last few years.

In 2000, Donohoe was fired in January, and Colbert came on in February... So that draft is a wash as far as his influence is concerned. Let's go from 2001.

1. Hampton... Good pick.. but no one is questioning his number 1 choices. 2. Bell. Flash in the pan. He is already out of the game, just 7 years later. 4. Mathais Kkwenti.. WHO? 5. Chukky Okabi.. OK backup. 6. Rodney Bailey.. not so good 6. Roger Knight.. WHO? 7 Chris Taylor.. WHO?

7 years later.. it looks like there was only one good pick. the first round.

2002.. 1. Simmons.. again, no one quesitons his number 1 choice. 2. Randle El. great choice. 3 Hope. Decent. 4. Foote. Good choice. 5 Haynes. I was never impressed.. but other really liked him. 6. Lee Mays.. 7 LaVar Globver. 7 Brett Keisel. Nice.

So 2002 is a dang good year. Many of these players aren't with us, but they gave us some good years.

2003. Troy P. Again. first round... no prob. 2. Alonzo Jackson. OOPS. 4. Ivan Taylor OOPS. 5. Brian St. Pierre OOPS.

HORRIBLE draft outside of Troy.

2004. 1. Ben... don't have to say it again 2. Ricardo Oops, I dropped the ball again. 3. Starks... jury still out in my opinion..though not bad for a 3rd round pick. 5. Adibi. Good special teamer.. but that is all he is. 6. Bo lacy. Who 6 Matt kranchick Who? 6 Drew Caylor WHO? 7 Eric Taylor WHO?

Not too impressive. Hit decently with Starks. But you gotta remember, we were high in the draft order this year, and still had a not so good draft in the rounds outside of 1 and 3.

2005. Heath Miller. 3. Bryant McFadden. Good pick. 3. Trai Essex. Decent pick 4. Fred Gibson.. DIDNT EVEN MAKE THE TEAM. 5. Rian wallace... no impact at all. 6. Chris Kemo... Great pick. 7 Shaun Nua & Noah Herron.. NOPE to both.

This was a decent year.. hit on first and second picks... which seems to be a trend.. hit on 1 and 2 or 1 and 3. Kemo was a good pick.

2006. Santo.. again, first rounder. 3. Smith.. Knucklehead. 3. Reid. Gone. 4. Colon.. starter... 5. Jacobs Gone. 5. Davis. Gone 6. Philip Gone. 7 Humes. Gone.

Um.. anything need to be said here? By the way, Cowher took a month off or so. Any significance to Cowher taking time off and this draft being horrible out side of Santo and MAYBE smith.. if he ever screws his head on straight?

2007.. With Tomlin. Timmons... too soon to tell, but having some VERY good games... makes an impact whenver he is in the game. 2. Woodley, great pick. 3. Spaeth.. playing and making an impact... though not as much as we would hope. 4. .Sep. Great punter last year. Let's hope he heals. 4 McBean ? 5 Sthephenson? And now we get to 5. William Gay. The kid can play, let's see what will happen. 7. Dallas Baker. He is on the depth chart.. .from a 7th pick. Not bad at all.

Seems that we have 5 out of 8 players from last years draft that are playing... and that is two years removed from a SB team.

2008. WAY too soon to tell.

What does all this say?

it says that Colbert usually hits on number 1 and 2, or one and 3, and has a LOT of misses after that, sometimes he has a good draft, other times, he blows the entire draft except for the first round.

So this last draft... seems to be right in line with a Colbert draft.

BTW... I will take a hit on 1 and 2 or 3, and miss on the rest of the rounds ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

That is why I like Colbert. Because the top draft picks are never a miss for him.

But to give him credit for good picks and blame Tomlin for bad picks is absolutely not supported by the evidence. The evidence says that Colbert hits big.... and misses big.

hizmi
10-21-2008, 06:37 PM
2003. Troy P. Again. first round... no prob. 2. Alonzo Jackson. OOPS. ]4. Ivan Taylor OOPS. 5. Brian St. Pierre OOPS.

HORRIBLE draft outside of Troy.



What does all this say?

it says that Colbert usually hits on number 1 and 2, or one and 3, and has a LOT of misses after that, sometimes he has a good draft, other times, he blows the entire draft except for the first round.



Ike's a pretty good 4th round pick, even if you subscribe to Joyner's notion that he shouldn't be starting ahead of townsend and bmac.

And your analysis of Colbert doesn't mean much if you don't provide context. His success in each round has to be compared to the rest of the league.

Steeldude
10-21-2008, 06:46 PM
timmons is always just right there to make the INT or deflection, but the ball just somehow slips past him. he is doing well in coverage.

lilyoder6
10-21-2008, 06:54 PM
i liked the game that timmons played against cincy. not bad him having 2 sacks of his own.. it seems that he is coming to his own and will be a good lb.. and with his speed at lb maybe use him more on passing situations

xXTheSteelKingsXx
10-21-2008, 07:33 PM
2003. Troy P. Again. first round... no prob. 2. Alonzo Jackson. OOPS. 4. Ivan Taylor OOPS. 5. Brian St. Pierre OOPS.


Preach, Ivan is Ike's first name.

revefsreleets
10-21-2008, 07:35 PM
Timmons was 3 inches from intercepting that pass when he was guarding Chris Henry.

250 lb linebackers guarding WR's are automatic mismatches, but he was RIGHT there.

I know about Harrison and Woodley...I'm learning about Timmons.

I like what I see across the board, though...

Preacher
10-21-2008, 07:56 PM
Preach, Ivan is Ike's first name.

:rofl:

I just got done reading that in another article as well before I posted it!:doh:


The entire point is that it is impossible to simply say well... these last two drafts are bad... its all Tomlin's fault.. except for Woodley... and anyone else that works out.. they are Colberts fault.

That is all I was arguing against.

steelpride12
10-21-2008, 09:54 PM
Looks like the Steelers found themselves an all around good pass rush LB.
He has the size and the strength, but as a MLB he is going to have to play the coverage and will need to improve on that to become an every game starter.

Leftoverhard
10-21-2008, 10:50 PM
thanks, good answers everyone. I think a game like Timmons had the other day is a career changer - he figured it out and there's no going back. I'm very optimistic.

Steelman16
10-22-2008, 02:52 AM
thanks, good answers everyone. I think a game like Timmons had the other day is a career changer - he figured it out and there's no going back. I'm very optimistic.

I agree, he's made forward progress, and could end up putting up Woodley number even as soon as the end of this year. Next year, I think he'll start next to Potsy.


Agree with you Preach. :drink:

Galax Steeler
10-22-2008, 05:23 AM
I agree, he's made forward progress, and could end up putting up Woodley number even as soon as the end of this year. Next year, I think he'll start next to Potsy. :drink:

I have to agree if he keeps a playing at he level he is then I think he will be a starter next year also.
Timmons,Woodley and Harrison just imagine.

DACEB
10-22-2008, 06:29 AM
timmons is always just right there to make the INT or deflection, but the ball just somehow slips past him. he is doing well in coverage.

Agreed, he was right there on the reviewed catch on the sidelines by Henry. I actually think he knocked the ball loose, but they called it a catch. He was right there almost sacking Fitz on the TD pass to Johnson. As with Woodley, these guys will only play FASTER as they get acclamated and gain more confidence with more playing time in the D. He is doing very well.

Now this Sunday I want to see a Timmons / Jacobs collision that ends with Timmons looking down over Jacobs. Time to get that rep going as a violent hitter, no better opportunity than that!!

Makaveli
10-22-2008, 07:55 AM
Please name an elite talent that was actually elite in years 1-3 of their career... and still elite in years 6-10?

BTW, that wasn't childish sarcasm. That was incredulity at the circular reasoning in your last post. You have just proposed a method of observation by which your presuppositions MUST come true.

You, in fact, have no idea whether Timmons is going to be a big star or not.

BTW... it seems that Colbert's hands were all over the trade up to get Sep. last year as a punter.



http://news.steelers.com/article/76080/

Now let's look at late round talent over the last few years.

In 2000, Donohoe was fired in January, and Colbert came on in February... So that draft is a wash as far as his influence is concerned. Let's go from 2001.

1. Hampton... Good pick.. but no one is questioning his number 1 choices. 2. Bell. Flash in the pan. He is already out of the game, just 7 years later. 4. Mathais Kkwenti.. WHO? 5. Chukky Okabi.. OK backup. 6. Rodney Bailey.. not so good 6. Roger Knight.. WHO? 7 Chris Taylor.. WHO?

7 years later.. it looks like there was only one good pick. the first round.

2002.. 1. Simmons.. again, no one quesitons his number 1 choice. 2. Randle El. great choice. 3 Hope. Decent. 4. Foote. Good choice. 5 Haynes. I was never impressed.. but other really liked him. 6. Lee Mays.. 7 LaVar Globver. 7 Brett Keisel. Nice.

So 2002 is a dang good year. Many of these players aren't with us, but they gave us some good years.

2003. Troy P. Again. first round... no prob. 2. Alonzo Jackson. OOPS. 4. Ivan Taylor OOPS. 5. Brian St. Pierre OOPS.

HORRIBLE draft outside of Troy.

2004. 1. Ben... don't have to say it again 2. Ricardo Oops, I dropped the ball again. 3. Starks... jury still out in my opinion..though not bad for a 3rd round pick. 5. Adibi. Good special teamer.. but that is all he is. 6. Bo lacy. Who 6 Matt kranchick Who? 6 Drew Caylor WHO? 7 Eric Taylor WHO?

Not too impressive. Hit decently with Starks. But you gotta remember, we were high in the draft order this year, and still had a not so good draft in the rounds outside of 1 and 3.

2005. Heath Miller. 3. Bryant McFadden. Good pick. 3. Trai Essex. Decent pick 4. Fred Gibson.. DIDNT EVEN MAKE THE TEAM. 5. Rian wallace... no impact at all. 6. Chris Kemo... Great pick. 7 Shaun Nua & Noah Herron.. NOPE to both.

This was a decent year.. hit on first and second picks... which seems to be a trend.. hit on 1 and 2 or 1 and 3. Kemo was a good pick.

2006. Santo.. again, first rounder. 3. Smith.. Knucklehead. 3. Reid. Gone. 4. Colon.. starter... 5. Jacobs Gone. 5. Davis. Gone 6. Philip Gone. 7 Humes. Gone.

Um.. anything need to be said here? By the way, Cowher took a month off or so. Any significance to Cowher taking time off and this draft being horrible out side of Santo and MAYBE smith.. if he ever screws his head on straight?

2007.. With Tomlin. Timmons... too soon to tell, but having some VERY good games... makes an impact whenver he is in the game. 2. Woodley, great pick. 3. Spaeth.. playing and making an impact... though not as much as we would hope. 4. .Sep. Great punter last year. Let's hope he heals. 4 McBean ? 5 Sthephenson? And now we get to 5. William Gay. The kid can play, let's see what will happen. 7. Dallas Baker. He is on the depth chart.. .from a 7th pick. Not bad at all.

Seems that we have 5 out of 8 players from last years draft that are playing... and that is two years removed from a SB team.

2008. WAY too soon to tell.

What does all this say?

it says that Colbert usually hits on number 1 and 2, or one and 3, and has a LOT of misses after that, sometimes he has a good draft, other times, he blows the entire draft except for the first round.

So this last draft... seems to be right in line with a Colbert draft.

BTW... I will take a hit on 1 and 2 or 3, and miss on the rest of the rounds ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

That is why I like Colbert. Because the top draft picks are never a miss for him.

But to give him credit for good picks and blame Tomlin for bad picks is absolutely not supported by the evidence. The evidence says that Colbert hits big.... and misses big.




You appeared to have illustrated my point exactly. Colbert had never drafted a backer or RB in the first rnd. Especially an undersized, slow and injury prone LB whom was out of shape and injured during the very time of said draft.

moedap
10-22-2008, 09:04 AM
You appeared to have illustrated my point exactly. Colbert had never drafted a backer or RB in the first rnd. Especially an undersized, slow and injury prone LB whom was out of shape and injured during the very time of said draft.

Timmons was out of shape because he was injured. If you arent seeing the upside of Timmons through his play this year you must be tailgating too hard before the games.

fansince'76
10-22-2008, 09:24 AM
You appeared to have illustrated my point exactly. Colbert had never drafted a backer or RB in the first rnd. Especially an undersized, slow and injury prone LB whom was out of shape and injured during the very time of said draft.

I'm sure Tomlin could acquit himself as a personnel manager in your eyes by following your recommendation of dumping practically half the team to get Larry Johnson though, right? :coffee:

Makaveli
10-22-2008, 10:14 AM
I'm sure Tomlin could acquit himself as a personnel manager in your eyes by following your recommendation of dumping practically half the team to get Larry Johnson though, right? :coffee:


And by "half the team" do you mean the players i mentioned like Townsend, Washington
Carter ? That's a pretty impressive grasp of math you have there homey. :chuckle:

And i only mentioned Casey AND OR Foote because they would be the only two out of the aforementioned players that any other team would consider of any real value.

fansince'76
10-22-2008, 10:18 AM
And by "half the team" do you mean the players i mentioned like Townsend, Washington
Carter ? That's a pretty impressive grasp of math you have there homey. :chuckle:

And i only mentioned Casey AND OR Foote because they would be the only two out of the aforementioned players that any other team would consider of any real value.

I just think that what's amusing here is your perception of how the Steelers draft - Tomlin is responsible for all the "bad picks" in your mind, while Colbert picks all the "winners" - do Tomlin and Colbert flip a coin to see which one gets the next pick in their war room during the draft or what?

Sorry, I simply can't take seriously anybody that would suggest what would be a complete turd of a trade for an extremely overpriced RB this close to the wrong side of 30. Especially someone that makes the insinuation that Tomlin and Colbert somehow "trade off" on draft picks. After all, in your world, Woodley = a "Colbert pick," Timmons = a "Tomlin pick."

SteelMember
10-22-2008, 12:10 PM
I believe Timmons has "literally" turned the corner this year.

He has always had the physical tools, hence his draft position, but it has taken him awhile to digest the playbook. His rookie season groin injury hampered his read/reaction skills on the field. You have to be able to play without thinking of assignments. Once you can do that, the game will slow down and you play even faster.

Is he a bust? No. It has just taken some time. I don't think 2 years is out of the ordinary. Especially coming off an injury early in the 1st year.

Also, to single out draft picks between GM and head coach in a given year is comical. I have to agree with Preacher's arguement there, :thumbsup: however long winded it may be. :chuckle:

LVSteelersfan
10-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Wait a second...

Isn't he that guy that everyone around here was saying was a bust?

Hmmm.

He will be a bust for sure. In the Pro Football Hall of Fame. :rofl:

lamberts-lost-tooth
10-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I have to agree if he keeps a playing at he level he is then I think he will be a starter next year also.
Timmons,Woodley and Harrison just imagine.

Grab OT Booth and DE Jackson in the first two rounds...then with the two 3rd rounders...grab ILB Scott McKillop from Pittsburgh and CB Mark Parson from Ohio?

McKillop is a brick wall!!...That would make for ONE HECK of a LB corp for the future....(I like OT Dace Richardson of Iowa as a late sleeper in the 4th or 5th round...and that would open up our two 3rds)

Dino 6 Rings
10-22-2008, 01:41 PM
Timmons is growing into his roll and as long as he follows in the footsteps of Harrison, being ready at a moments notice to start, he'll be a great asset to our linebacking corp.

Btw...how Effing Fantastic is our Linebacker corp, seriously...they freaking ROCK!

Preacher
10-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Timmons is growing into his roll and as long as he follows in the footsteps of Harrison, being ready at a moments notice to start, he'll be a great asset to our linebacking corp.

Btw...how Effing Fantastic is our Linebacker corp, seriously...they freaking ROCK!

Yep.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing one more top 3 pick at LB this coming draft. If our line shapes out like I hope it does... with the Guards set, a FA at center (hey, I'll hold out hope for the current guy even), Starks playing as well as he did Sunday and the end of last year at LT (seems like a natural position for him), and a number 1 or 2 pick at RT,

I would love to see the other top pick for LB to replace Potsie at the mack position in a couple of years. Give him time to be groomed.

What I really want to know is, how in the WORLD did we go from having no backups, to being this deep, in a matter of a year or so? I guess teh FO and coaches DO know what they are doing.

The Duke
10-22-2008, 04:02 PM
I would love to see the other top pick for LB to replace Potsie at the mack position in a couple of years. Give him time to be groomed.



wasn't timmons said to be better suited for farrior's spot? or am I just mixing it up :noidea:


But yeah, a 3rd round MLB would be a nice addition. oh, the possibilities with an extra 3rd rounder....I hope it's a 3rd rounder at least

paw-n-maul-u
10-22-2008, 04:24 PM
There are going to be a slew of good MLB's this coming year. I would love a brandon spikes in the middle for a trade up at the beginning of the third round.

Mag, cushing, james. L, spikes are just four big names off the top of my head

Preacher
10-22-2008, 04:25 PM
wasn't timmons said to be better suited for farrior's spot? or am I just mixing it up :noidea:


But yeah, a 3rd round MLB would be a nice addition. oh, the possibilities with an extra 3rd rounder....I hope it's a 3rd rounder at least

Possibly, but Farrior is going to be around a bit.. He actually seems to be in his prime NOW... as strange as that is.

However, Foote seems to be a place holder from the last LB corp to this one... granted, a placeholder that won us a SB... not too shabby, but still. So i wanna see what timmons can do there.. and then draft a number 1 or 2 LB for Farrior's spot adn train him up in it for a year or two...

Again, this is predicated on us getting a good FA for the line, and the Guards and Starks at LT staying solid.

Makaveli
10-22-2008, 05:07 PM
Possibly, but Farrior is going to be around a bit.. He actually seems to be in his prime NOW... as strange as that is.

However, Foote seems to be a place holder from the last LB corp to this one... granted, a placeholder that won us a SB... not too shabby, but still. So i wanna see what timmons can do there.. and then draft a number 1 or 2 LB for Farrior's spot adn train him up in it for a year or two...

Again, this is predicated on us getting a good FA for the line, and the Guards and Starks at LT staying solid.



Personally,...i'd like to see us draft Rey Maualuga as "heir " to James' role with us. But,..he (Rey) probably goes top ten.

Preacher
10-22-2008, 05:32 PM
Personally,...i'd like to see us draft Rey Maualuga as "heir " to James' role with us. But,..he (Rey) probably goes top ten.

Believe it or not, I really don't follow college football.

Sure, if my team really does well, i will watch. But other than that... naaa.

It makes it fun on draft day. I hear a name called by my team, then i go and read all about him. It's like Christmas in April!!

:chuckle:

Avoid LLoyd1975
10-22-2008, 10:51 PM
He should have been nominmated as one of the DPOY. He had better stats than Woodley.

lilyoder6
10-22-2008, 11:45 PM
i don't think that james and rey will stay on the board for us to draft them. and for some odd reason they are there at number 1 i doubt we would draft them..

ricksteelers55
10-23-2008, 12:44 AM
We really dont have to be that good in 2nd day cause we always find ways to pick up good UDFA.But I have to admit the ONLY player that I really cant believe we didnt draft was RB Brandon Jacobs in 2005 instead of G Trai Essex.Jacobs was my man.The guy was playing 3rd stringer behind Cadillac and Ronnie Brown in Auburn and kept averaging 6+ yds per carries.Then he transferred to Southern Illinois in Div I-AA.

Can you imagine with Jacobs....we'd have the best possible thunder and lightning RB combo Parker and Jacobs....WOW

so Trai...you better re-sign next year !!!!

Galax Steeler
10-23-2008, 04:45 AM
Believe it or not, I really don't follow college football.

Sure, if my team really does well, i will watch. But other than that... naaa.

It makes it fun on draft day. I hear a name called by my team, then i go and read all about him. It's like Christmas in April!!

:chuckle:

Peacheer I am in the same boat as you I can not keep up with college and like you said when we draft someone that is when I look them up but I do look at alot of mock drafts sometimes and read up on some of them.