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View Full Version : Bad Route Running and lack of WR effort


jsteelers51191
10-26-2008, 07:27 PM
You take a competent offensive coordinator and add more effort on the WR end, and out offense is top 5. Easily! If you watch the few goal post angels that the broadcast shows, you can see the WR's running the most putrid routes! They take an IN and they curve it off as if they were running along a quarter of a circle. And i can't tell you how many times they do their routes half ass and they kinda do whatever to get open. I know Hines is a beast, but he really just doesn't have the ability of an NFL wideout anymore. He isn't quick, hence the reason he needs motion to get a decent jump off the line. He isn't sharp in running routes, and he just doesn't create any seperation. And to top it off, my FAVORITE PLAY is when Arians has all 4 receivers run curls. They juts time after time don't get themselves open and THAT is the reason for the offense's failures The lack of persistant effort on the WR's to get themselves open and Arian's mind-blowing dumbness. I have watched the Steelers for 6 years and I have never seen a coordinator run so many plays that are doomed to fail before the ball is even hiked.

steelpride12
10-26-2008, 07:31 PM
Wow so your saying Ward didn't try and ran bad routes, and the same for Nate even with a long TD catch and the chance to prove himself?

jsteelers51191
10-26-2008, 08:01 PM
One, Washington running a 9 route doesn't make him a good route runner. And 2, Ward's routes look absolutely lackluster. He DOESN'T have the tools to be a starting WR in the league anymore. If his biggest plays are when he lays soemone out, why don't they just list him at fullback. Watch his routes from now on. I bet you could run better routes than Hines.

stillers4me
10-26-2008, 08:02 PM
One, Washington running a 9 route doesn't make him a good route runner. And 2, Ward's routes look absolutely lackluster. He DOESN'T have the tools to be a starting WR in the league anymore. If his biggest plays are when he lays soemone out, why don't they just list him at fullback. Watch his routes from now on. I bet you could run better routes than Hines.

Wow. We're 5-2 and still have the division lead.

Get a grip, people.

X-Terminator
10-26-2008, 08:03 PM
One, Washington running a 9 route doesn't make him a good route runner. And 2, Ward's routes look absolutely lackluster. He DOESN'T have the tools to be a starting WR in the league anymore. If his biggest plays are when he lays soemone out, why don't they just list him at fullback. Watch his routes from now on. I bet you could run better routes than Hines.

Yeah dude, whatever.

Just another in the long list of "fans" who only show up when the Steelers lose.

steelpride12
10-26-2008, 08:58 PM
One, Washington running a 9 route doesn't make him a good route runner. And 2, Ward's routes look absolutely lackluster. He DOESN'T have the tools to be a starting WR in the league anymore. If his biggest plays are when he lays soemone out, why don't they just list him at fullback. Watch his routes from now on. I bet you could run better routes than Hines.

Hey you don't have many posts, leave while no one knows you around here.
NOONE criticizes Ward around here, he plays his heart out every game, and please Washington has stepped up the last 3 games that's no fluke. Have some respect or don't call yourself a Steeler fan!

Dino 6 Rings
10-26-2008, 09:01 PM
Um...I'm still not a Nate Fan...just for the record...but he has done Well in the last 3 games, yet I still think he drops too many balls.

ktm5411
10-26-2008, 09:52 PM
Ignorant. Sounds like something someone who has been either on the sidelines or in an armchair their whole life would say.

1- Hines has the same tools he always has: he's a competitor, he's smart, fearless, and has respectable hands.

2 - Washington played as expected, he's a home run threat, nothing more, he's not reliable enough to hit on a 3rd and 4 slant route, that's no secret

3 - Every other reciever, mainly Sweed, was seeing their first real game action. Honestly, I feel like Sweed did alright, he made some catches and he fought for yardage, but he's still raw, very raw.

jjpro11
10-26-2008, 10:06 PM
was anyone at the game able to see whether the receivers were getting separation or not. it doesnt seem like ben and his receivers are in rhythm. we hardly do any kind of timing routes.

steelerstrade
10-27-2008, 10:15 AM
Wow. We're 5-2 and still have the division lead.

Get a grip, people.

A-men! :hatsoff: Thats the best comment today.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-27-2008, 10:49 AM
I saw the same play from Ward in those bunch formations, but you have to understand that is how he is supposed to run that pattern.

If you line up 3 guys in the bunch formation and they all sprint downfield at top speed, there is no separation in their routes. The idea is that they make breaks at designed intervals to allow the QB to make "progressive reads" of who is open.

What some are seeing as Hines not running "sharp routes" or "with lack of persistent effort" is just part of how the play is designed and how the route is supposed to be run.

sweeeed
10-27-2008, 12:43 PM
If some people on the message board want to idolize certain players and make them impervious to criticism, then that is their prerogative. But to chastise other people for offering thoughtful analysis about how and why the Steelers have struggled is just stupid.

First, for those who believe we should relax because we still have the division lead, I have two things to say:
1) We have the hardest schedule ever coming up, and since we've shown we can't beat winning teams this season, EVERYBODY should be nervous.
2) Beating crappy teams doesn't win you the Superbowl. All it does is give you an inflated record that makes ESPN's analysts think you're better than you are, and ultimately sets your fans up for another epic meltdown in the postseason.

If some of the people here are content with winning our division and losing in the first round of the playoffs, then YOU are not Steelers fans. The TRUE fans are those who care about this team so much that they get upset when they see recurrent problems continually go unfixed! I am so loyal to this team that I get as furious as ever when I see us lose. But it makes me even more mad when I see a coaching staff that refuses to make the proper adjustments in order to get us a W!!

Second, our wide receivers are performing well below average, and the absence of Holmes this game was blatantly obvious (anybody can see that when we go 1-for-10 on 3rd downs, something is not normal.) Four things:
1) Limas Sweed, in my opinion, has the potential to be great, but it will take time for him to learn. Yet I DON'T KNOW WHY Tomlin waited this long to let him play!? Imagining Dallas Baker, a small-time receiver from UF, gave us a better chance to win, was a serious coaching mistake.
2) Nate Washington is unfortunately not committing himself to playing for 60 minutes. He either appears on the TV screen when there is a deep pass, or a short to intermediate pass that he dropped or messed up on. If we want to be a superbowl team, we are going to need guys to make big plays all the time, and not just look for the glamorous Randy Moss play that gets receivers on the front page of Sports Illustrated.
3) While this forum seems to be full of Hines Ward worshipers, I will say this anyway: Hines Ward is neither quick nor agile. He gets put in motion because he can't get good jumps off the line. I know some people revere him as if he were a God, but I can't ignore the fact that he is not a big play receiver anymore. His only plays are ones with blown coverage by corners. If he is such a good run blocker, we should list him as a fullback and let other taller, faster, and more agile receivers take his place. And as a warning, attacking me for criticizing Hines simply because he is Hines is NOT an argument, and I will treat you as a child if you do.
4) Anytime we throw to Heath miller, nothing but good things happen. Why we don't do this more, I don't know. Once again, an inability of the entire offensive unit, from players to coaches, to work together effectively and put together a winning team.

Third, Bruce Arians is the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL. He designs terrible plays that either never work, or work too late. There are countless times when I see wide receivers running 15-20 yards before they turn around when all we need is 5 yards for the first down. There are also times when we waste our tight ends and backs as blockers, instead of getting them out into the open field (which is open because of the blitzes the other team just sent.) And we continually look confused, unprepared, and entirely out of rhythm on the offensive side of the ball. The plays we have don't work, and the Cowher mentality that we need to play tough is holding us back from being great. We have passing weapons that can shred opposing defenses. If we continue to misuse our receivers, tight ends, and running backs, we'll never be a superbowl team. And until we start playing to the level I KNOW we can play at, I will not be a happy Steelers fan.

fansince'76
10-27-2008, 12:50 PM
If some of the people here are content with winning our division and losing in the first round of the playoffs, then YOU are not Steelers fans. The TRUE fans are those who care about this team so much that they get upset when they see recurrent problems continually go unfixed!

1. Who ever said they were "content" with winning the division and then going one-and-done in the playoffs? Point it out. This team AIN'T gonna win a SB every year. Nor do they "owe" you one either. Sorry to burst your bubble.

2. "True fans" don't come out twice over seven games to bitch and spew knee-jerk reactionary BS when we lose and then completely disappear after wins. Sorry, they don't. That's what bandwagoners do. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. There's a lot wrong with sky-is-falling reactionary BS. There's also a big difference between the two.

DACEB
10-27-2008, 01:10 PM
I thought bandwagon fans only show up when the team wins?!?!?

fansince'76
10-27-2008, 01:14 PM
I thought bandwagon fans only show up when the team wins?!?!?

I guess it depends on your definition of the word. My definition of the word includes those who have been spoiled rotten by the team's historical success and think the team "owes" them a championship every single year without fail and only come out to offer knee-jerk complaints when it loses. It's easy to support a team when it wins - it becomes tougher when the team hits a rough spot. Offering nothing but knee-jerk proclamations of who should be fired/benched/cut, how bad the team "sucks," etc., etc., after a tough loss doesn't count as support, IMO.

bestmike26
10-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Third, Bruce Arians is the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL. He designs terrible plays that either never work, or work too late. There are countless times when I see wide receivers running 15-20 yards before they turn around when all we need is 5 yards for the first down. There are also times when we waste our tight ends and backs as blockers, instead of getting them out into the open field (which is open because of the blitzes the other team just sent.) And we continually look confused, unprepared, and entirely out of rhythm on the offensive side of the ball. The plays we have don't work, and the Cowher mentality that we need to play tough is holding us back from being great. We have passing weapons that can shred opposing defenses. If we continue to misuse our receivers, tight ends, and running backs, we'll never be a superbowl team. And until we start playing to the level I KNOW we can play at, I will not be a happy Steelers fan.[/QUOTE]


I don't think we need to bad mouth our recievers or were trying to...I think this comment about Arians hits it right on the nose....This happened to us against the Eagles and could happen again against the Redskins it we can't not figure out a way to play thru it ....The no huddle offense with Ben calling the plays has seemed to work and has provided Ben a comfort Zone....Lets see if Tomlin steps in here and makes some good decisions so we do not continue to make these poor offensive calls....Heath Miller is a MUST....He was not even in the line up yesterday in the 4th quarter.....

sweeeed
10-27-2008, 01:47 PM
1. Who ever said they were "content" with winning the division and then going one-and-done in the playoffs? Point it out. This team AIN'T gonna win a SB every year. Nor do they "owe" you one either. Sorry to burst your bubble.

2. "True fans" don't come out twice over seven games to bitch and spew knee-jerk reactionary BS when we lose and then completely disappear after wins. Sorry, they don't. That's what bandwagoners do. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. There's a lot wrong with sky-is-falling reactionary BS. There's also a big difference between the two.

When some people complain about criticism because we're 5-2 and leading the division, that means they're CONTENT with where we are. There is no getting around this one. Here's the definition of content from Webster's Dictionary: "satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." That is exactly what previous posters were showing with their comments.

And I never once mentioned the word "owe" in my previous post, so I don't know why you went on a self-righteous soapbox that had no relevance to anything that I said. I don't think the team owes me anything more than having every person, from trainer to coach to player, do all they can to make sure we are in the best position to win. When I see a top 3 defense go to waste, and an offense THIS potent look like a mess, I get upset. Any rational fan would.

As to your second point, I don't come out twice every seven games. I was frustrated in the Cleveland, Baltimore, Jacksonville, and Cincinnati game when our offense struggled for much too long. I've been complaining about our lack of determination on offense for over a year. And calling what I just said "knee-jerk reactionary BS" instead of addressing what I said is exactly the kind of childish mentality that I won't take seriously.

The Steelers have some great players that are just beginning to enter into their prime. Of course we won't win the Superbowl every year, but this era of our team is when we are in the perfect position to do so! I will not be content with watching a great team with limitless potential waste away due to a lack of effort and determination.

fansince'76
10-27-2008, 01:51 PM
And I never once mentioned the word "owe" in my previous post, so I don't know why you went on a self-righteous soapbox that had no relevance to anything that I said.

Coming here and qualifying who are or aren't "true fans" isn't getting on a self-righteous soapbox? OK.

FYI, I also know the definition of "content," so feel free to drop the condescension anytime, junior. There's also the word "context." Saying we're 5-2 and on top of the division (both true statements, BTW) is a reasonable response to others that come here and act like the team will be lucky to win another game. Therefore, in this "context," it isn't being "content" at all, which brings us to the third vocabulary word of the day: "perspective." I suggest you gain a little.

sweeeed
10-27-2008, 02:30 PM
I was emphatic that I was a true fan because many people throughout this thread, including yourself, decided to take it upon themselves to lambaste anybody who did not believe in the philosophy that we should just sit on our hands and hope for the better. I do not take the claim that I am a bandwagon fan lightly. I hope you wouldn't either. Also, yours was a soapbox because you put words in my mouth and completely digressed from anything I said. My was not because I was simply answering the claim that jsteelers51191 and myself were bandwagon fans.

And you obviously don't know what content means. Some argued that they were pissed people came here and complained about what happened when we were 5-2 with the division lead. They are upset that people aren't CONTENT with where we are right now. If you read the definition I included, you'd understand that. Trying to wiggle your way out of it by claiming interpretation is difficult. Read what the posters wrote.

MACH1
10-27-2008, 02:43 PM
I was emphatic that I was a true fan because many people throughout this thread, including yourself, decided to take it upon themselves to lambaste anybody who did not believe in the philosophy that we should just sit on our hands and hope for the better. I do not take the claim that I am a bandwagon fan lightly. I hope you wouldn't either. Also, yours was a soapbox because you put words in my mouth and completely digressed from anything I said. My was not because I was simply answering the claim that jsteelers51191 and myself were bandwagon fans.

And you obviously don't know what content means. Some argued that they were pissed people came here and complained about what happened when we were 5-2 with the division lead. They are upset that people aren't CONTENT with where we are right now. If you read the definition I included, you'd understand that. Trying to wiggle your way out of it by claiming interpretation is difficult. Read what the posters wrote.


If they would have won this game you wouldn't be here whining about it either.


:cookie: Feel better?

fansince'76
10-27-2008, 02:49 PM
Nevermind - not worth it.

lilyoder6
10-27-2008, 03:05 PM
all i am hearing is :blah:

u have a total of like 5 posts, and u coming in and alrdy dogging on other members..

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-27-2008, 03:10 PM
Third, Bruce Arians is the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL. He designs terrible plays that either never work, or work too late.

IF this was the case, we would be 0-7 like the Bengals. Ted Tollner, Cam Cameron, Mike Martz, Bob Bratkowski, all suck worse.....mostly because of personell issues.

Its like saying that Kevin Gilbride is the best O coordinator in the NFL because they won the SB last season. Gilbride sucked in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, San Deigo.....all of a sudden he is a genius??

sweeeed
10-27-2008, 05:33 PM
If the Steelers won, I would still be here criticizing the offense because of their incompetence and inconsistency. We can not perform like that week after week and expect to go deep in the playoffs!!

And if fansince'76 wants to go the "nevermind" route, then I'll assume you have nothing to say.

And Bruce Arians is the worst coordinator because he is such a failure at harnessing the explosive power we have!! The only reason he still has a job is because our defense is awesome, and, save for yesterday, Ben typically makes extremely good spur of the moment plays. He's the best quarterback out of the pocket, and has the highest passer rating after first contact. THAT'S WHY ARIANS IS STILL HERE. (Caps are for emphasis--I am not yelling.)

sweeeed
10-27-2008, 05:36 PM
Its like saying that Kevin Gilbride is the best O coordinator in the NFL because they won the SB last season. Gilbride sucked in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, San Deigo.....all of a sudden he is a genius??

No one is saying he's the best offensive coordinator because they won the Superbowl. Most people recognize the great play by their defense, especially the D-line, and how they had a good running game with good run-blockers that managed to control the clock. The best coordinators don't always win the Superbowl. A great coordinator makes the most out of what he has. With that in mind, considering the players we have, Bruce Arians is a very bad offensive coordinator.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-27-2008, 05:54 PM
No one is saying he's the best offensive coordinator because they won the Superbowl. Most people recognize the great play by their defense, especially the D-line, and how they had a good running game with good run-blockers that managed to control the clock. The best coordinators don't always win the Superbowl. A great coordinator makes the most out of what he has. With that in mind, considering the players we have, Bruce Arians is a very bad offensive coordinator.

My point is there is no ranking system for coordinators and your statements like "Arians is the worst offensive coordiantor in the NFL" or he "is a very bad offensive coordinator" are just unfounded, unsubstantiated, exaggerated opinions.

Go back to the previous teams where he was a coordinator and you will find high scoring, explosive offenses in Indy and Cleveland, where those teams made the playoffs.

Some great coordinators dont make the most of what they have. Instead they need the right players to fit into their kind of systems.....which is what I dont like of Arians and his offense. He doesnt have the right personel for his type of offense, but it has nothing to do with "bad route running or lack of WR effort" as this thread is titled.

The WR's are running the routes as intended. Hines Ward is running a slow route in some cases to get separation. I dont know your age, but if you can remember Steve Largent, Brian Brennan, Ed McCaffrey type guys that arent burners and just get open.....that is what I think you are perceiving as "lack of WR effort".

I dont like Arians style of offense.....but I know he isnt the worst OC in the NFL.

tony hipchest
10-27-2008, 06:36 PM
d. lebeau is the best d-coord in the game and gilbride knew enough that that td toss to boss was almost a sure bet.

offens screwed the steelers game up, but a great defense, lost it in the end.

team game, team blame, team loss.

atleast we can go back to being "under the radar" (steelerfans love this one).

had we won, we woulda been on top of all the "power rankings" (steelerfans hate this one).

Steeldude
10-27-2008, 07:42 PM
IMO, sweed is the only WR i saw run poor routes and that's most likely because he is a rookie.

i think the routes(plays) chosen were awful. it didn't appear that arians utilized the entire field to his advantage. also, i felt the should have look to miller more often.

X-Terminator
10-27-2008, 09:11 PM
If the Steelers won, I would still be here criticizing the offense because of their incompetence and inconsistency.

Oh is that right? Then where exactly have you been for the past month? Playing tiddlywinks? It sure as hell wasn't here.

Bottom line...Steelers lost, you magically show up the very next day to bash them. When the Steelers were winning, you were nowhere to be found. Just like so many others. Lather, rinse, repeat.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-27-2008, 10:28 PM
Lather, rinse, repeat.

.:rofl:

Great line!! I'm gonna use that one in the future.

Galax Steeler
10-28-2008, 03:42 AM
Ben didn't have time for them to run alot of routes cause he was being pressured I think the wr did a good job with what little time Ben had to throw the ball.

stillers4me
10-28-2008, 05:34 AM
Although I'm not completely sold on this, I foresee Arians being released in a few weeks after another poor performance by the Steelers offense and the play sheet being handed down to Ken Anderson. Regardless of whether this occurs during the season, Arians A$$ is definitely gone at seasons end, my very-reliable but unnamed source has assured me of it.

Kenny Anderson? Now that's an interesting thought.

I may have a fairly high post count, but I come here mainly to read and learn. While I'm not one to advocate Arians' firing as I'm not knowledgable enough on the subject to make that call, I do agree that marely squeaking by with win's when we have such powerful weapons at our disposal and a quarterback of Ben's caliber, combines with probably the best defense in the league is simply not acceptable.

Something, somewhere along the line has to change, and I wish it would sooner rather than later. This year, there is a real opportunity to grab the prize and we have the talent to do it.

Michael Keller
10-28-2008, 05:56 AM
1-I think 5 - 2 is a good record.

2-I think our defense is is excelent and consistently dependable.

3-Our special teams coverage is much improved but on ocassion allows longer than average kick off returns. I was very critical last year but not so this year.

4-Punt and kick off returns could be better. Since Randal El left we have not had the threat of breaking returns. We should consider this when we draft or in FA next year.

5-The offensive line is no longer a powerful part of the team's arsenal. The Steelers have not replenished their talent here and no longer can control the line of scrimmage. The pass protection is well below average. There is a need for much improvement both in the short run and the long run. Rebuild the offensive line even if it takes 2 more seasons ,2009/2010 which I believe it will. We wasted one draft and one Free Agency. Do not do this again.

6-Bruce Arian's play calling leaves much to be desired . He is not a top notch offensive coordinator . The Steelers are a quality franchise and can hire a proven successful offensive coordinator that fits their style . They can get the best OC possible . As long as Arian's remains as the offensive coordinator the threat of being out coached is hugh.

7-The Steelers have great tradition and great citizenry which is being up held by Mike Tomlin. He is a young coach and deserves a chance to optimize his coaching skills.

Conclusion let Arian go at season end and immediately start bringing in talented offensive linemen through the draft and Fa.

An acceptable record this year would be 10 & 6 which means we win 5 out of the last 10 games. We get into the play offs and anything can happen if we have the momentum of playing quality football and being relatively free from injuries.

Again I repeat my personal opinion it would be best to LET ARIAN GO AT SEASON END. He may have some talent and abilities that I am not aware of but consistent intelligent and effective play calling is not one of them.

GBMelBlount
10-28-2008, 06:28 AM
The best athletes, coaches and even some fans, tend to primarily focus what went wrong. That's how you improve.

However, when a post is extremely negative or critical, and the poster doesn't have a real history of consistent / balanced posting yet, the points, valid or not, can be lost due to the way in which they are delivered imo......

Otherwise, great thread.

stlrtruck
10-28-2008, 08:03 AM
Why wasn't anyone calling for the coordinator's head in 2005 when we lost a few games in a bad way????

X-Terminator
10-28-2008, 09:21 AM
Why wasn't anyone calling for the coordinator's head in 2005 when we lost a few games in a bad way????

They were, actually. But then they went on the SB run, and all of that was forgotten. Funny how that works.

Leftoverhard
10-28-2008, 09:34 AM
Hmm, I bet you could take Arians job right? Sure, and replace Ward with TO or some other real route runner. Ok, no thanks. You think you have this all figured out but when it comes down to it, a player like Ward is worth his weight in gold. HIs value can't be scribbled down on paper or figured out by a fan.

SteelMember
10-28-2008, 11:03 AM
I'll agree with Gonzo on this. I don't think the routes are run with "a lack of effort", but more by the design of the play.

While Arians may not be utilizing his weapons, these bunch plays have been in the Steelers playbook for years. He basically cut/streamlined the playbook (Whisenhunt's and every coordinators before) for Ben to take advantage of what he (Ben) liked. He may have added some signature plays, but I don't believe the playbook is/was entirely authored by him. That may be part of the problem, I don't know, but I don't think he should shoulder the blame for an offense that runs hot and cold. We are not getting any consistency.

The plays always look better when they are successful.