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SteelersMongol
11-05-2008, 09:30 PM
VIENNA, Austria (AP) - She was a stranger, and she kissed me. Just for being an American.

It happened on the bus on my way to work Wednesday morning, a few hours after compatriots clamoring for change swept Barack Obama to his historic victory. I was on the phone, and the 20-something Austrian woman seated in front of me overheard me speaking English.

Without a word, she turned, pecked me on the cheek and stepped off at the next stop.

Nothing was said, but the message was clear: Today, we are all Americans.

For longtime U.S. expatriates like me - someone far more accustomed to being targeted over unpopular policies, for having my very Americanness publicly assailed - it feels like an extraordinary turnabout.

Like a long journey over a very bumpy road has abruptly come to an end.

And it's not just me.

An American colleague in Egypt says several people came up to her on the streets of Cairo and said: "America, hooray!" Others, including strangers, expressed congratulations with a smile and a hand over their hearts.

Another colleague, in Amman, says Jordanians stopped her on the street and that several women described how they wept with joy.

When you're an American abroad, you can quickly become a whipping post. Regardless of your political affiliation, if you happen to be living and working overseas at a time when the United States has antagonized much of the world, you get a lot of grief.

You can find yourself pressed to be some kind of apologist for Washington. And you can wind up feeling ashamed and alone.

I'll never forget a ride in a taxi in Vienna when the world was waking up to the abuses wrought by U.S. troops at the detention center for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

My driver, a Muslim, was indignant. "You are American, yes?" he asked in that accusatory tone so familiar to many expats.

"Uh, no, Canadian," I said.

And it wasn't the first time I fudged where I was from. I speak three foreign languages, so I have a bit of flexibility when it comes to faking. At various times, I've been a German in Serbia, a Frenchman in Turkey, a Dutchman in Austria.

I'm not proud of it. But when you're far from home, and you're feeling cornered, you develop what you come to believe are survival skills.

Last spring, after the Bush administration recognized Kosovo's independence, a Serb who overheard my American-accented English lobbed a beer can at me in central Vienna. He missed, but spat out an unflattering "Amerikanac" and told me where to go.

On another occasion, an Austrian who heard my teenage daughter chatting with a friend pursued her, screaming, "Go Home!"

Physical attacks on Americans overseas are rare. Yet some of us felt vaguely at risk.

Maybe it was just the hostility we'd encounter even in friendly venues such as co cktail parties, when our foreign hosts would surround us and demand to know why U.S. troops were roughing up inmates at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. Or refusing to sign the U.N. Convention Against Torture. Or rejecting the Kyoto accord on climate change.

Maybe it was the State Department, which issues regular travel advisories urging Americans to keep a low profile even in tranquil Austria.

Often, of course, I've pushed back - reminding critics that most Americans are decent and generous souls, quick to respond with money and manpower whenever and wherever in the world catastrophe may strike.

My children came of age in Europe, and in a hostile post-9/11 world we had to teach them to avoid being too conspicuously American. Don't speak English loudly on the subway. Don't wear baseball caps and tennis shoes. Don't single yourselves out, guys, and even worldly wise Americans can unwittingly become targets.

We didn't overdo it, but there's always been that tension. That difficult-to-describe sense of vulnerability. That nagging instinct that maybe we'd better watch it, because our government is intensely unpopular and we're not entirely welcome.

I know Americans who at times have felt that way even in laid-back Vienna, where the greatest danger is probably eating a bad pastry.

That's what made Wednesday's unsolicited kiss so remarkable.

I don't want to read too much into an innocent smooch, but it didn't feel particularly pro-Obama, even though the new U.S. president-elect enjoys broad support here. No, it seemed to impart two sentiments I haven't felt for a long time: friendship and admiration.

Obama captured it in his acceptance speech - this sense that despite holding America's feet to the fire, the rest of the world is rooting for it and wants it to lead and succeed.

"Our destiny is shared," he said, "and a new dawn of American leadership is at hand."

Overnight, Americans did something their harshest critics in Europe have yet to do: elect a person of color as head of state and commander in chief. That gives U.S. citizens some bragging rights, even if a lot of us would just as soon eschew hubris and embrace humility.

I'm a marathon runner, and I have a red, white and blue singlet that I've seldom dared to wear on the Continent. Marathons are difficult enough without enduring catcalls and jeers from spectators.

But my best friend and training partner - who is French - just gave me his stamp of approval.

"Will you wear your Stars and Stripes shirt now? You're allowed!" he told me.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20081105/D948VNGG0.html

Note from me: Congratulations on your successful Presidential election & the 44th President of the US!

MasterOfPuppets
11-05-2008, 09:55 PM
i used to work for a company owned by Austrians and worked with a few of them daily. they were some of the biggest racist i've ever met. i find it hard to believe they'd be celebrating a black man gaining a position of power.

xfl2001fan
11-05-2008, 09:57 PM
i used to work for a company owned by Austrians and worked with a few of them daily. they were some of the biggest racist i've ever met. i find it hard to believe they'd be celebrating a black man gaining a position of power.

Maybe they see this country as easy pickens for any number of nefarious schemes under his watch.

stillers4me
11-05-2008, 09:59 PM
Maybe they see this country as easy pickens for any number of nefarious schemes under his watch.

Exactly. Welcome to America......the doormat of the world.

tony hipchest
11-05-2008, 09:59 PM
thanks steelersmongol, and thank you for being so pro-america and supportive (much more than alot of actual americans we encounter on a daily basis).

NJarhead
11-05-2008, 10:31 PM
She was a stranger, and she kissed me. Just for being an American.

It happened on the bus on my way to work Wednesday morning, a few hours after compatriots clamoring for change swept Barack Obama to his historic victory. I was on the phone, and the 20-something Austrian woman seated in front of me overheard me speaking English.


You all FAILED to ask the important question here!

Was she hot? :chuckle:

Godfather
11-05-2008, 11:20 PM
i used to work for a company owned by Austrians and worked with a few of them daily. they were some of the biggest racist i've ever met. i find it hard to believe they'd be celebrating a black man gaining a position of power.

I can't believe that guy claimed to be a German in Serbia and lived to tell about it!

Anyway, thanks Mongol...I really don't understand the fascination with Obama--if you look past the superficial he's the ultimate establishment candidate. He's the one who bought the election with special interest money, and he's the one the fat cat CEOs and the special interests wanted. Those things are stereotypically Republican but this year is the Bizarro World election.

augustashark
11-05-2008, 11:21 PM
Sorry!

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN COOL TO BE AN AMERICAN!

Stupid article.

Godfather
11-05-2008, 11:24 PM
Sorry!

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN COOL TO BE AN AMERICAN!


I agree. I think the point is that the Europeans see it as cool again.

tony hipchest
11-05-2008, 11:38 PM
I agree. I think the point is that the Europeans see it as cool again.
i think augusta just enjoys slamming foreigners (even those who would willingly sacrifice their own lives to join the US military to fight for freedom)....

again mongol.... THANKS! :thumbsup:

:drink:

augustashark
11-05-2008, 11:51 PM
So nice that two other posters brought Obama into this thread and nothing said to them. I write that is has always been cool to be an american and our resident so called comedian takes a swing at me. Sad.

So I ask, was you cool to be an american in 2002?

tony hipchest
11-06-2008, 12:38 AM
So nice that two other posters brought Obama into this thread and nothing said to them. I write that is has always been cool to be an american and our resident so called comedian takes a swing at me. Sad.

So I ask, was you cool to be an american in 2002?the thread is about obama. :doh:

get with the program.

but to answer your rediculous question....

if you were me in 2002 then it was most definitely cool. :cool:

if you were augustashark it probably sucked :nerd:

and i will step out on a limb and speak for our mongolian friend and say he always thought it was "cool" to be in america regardless of who was president. :usa:

some people just appreciate things others take for granted (and abuse).

MACH1
11-06-2008, 12:49 AM
http://www.hellnobama.com/hellnobama/images/michelle.bmp
I'm Thinking

fansince'76
11-06-2008, 02:47 AM
Does this mean al-Qaeda and other Muslim extremist groups will stop hating us now too? :coffee:

Sorry, gotta go with 'Shark on this one - stupid article.

Preacher
11-06-2008, 02:55 AM
thanks steelersmongol, and thank you for being so pro-america and supportive (much more than alot of actual americans we encounter on a daily basis).


Absolutely.

I still have a hard time with all the americans that tear down president Bush.

Preacher
11-06-2008, 02:58 AM
I agree. I think the point is that the Europeans see it as cool again.


To be honest, I have never cared what Europe thinks of America or American policies.

All I know is that they come crying to us every time there is a world problem on their doorstep... and then turns around and throws sand in our face most of the other time... except for the Brits.

God bless the Brits. They always complain.. even when we were over there in WWII... but they always back us... just like family.

Vis
11-06-2008, 07:54 AM
I've never been cool before.

Vis
11-06-2008, 07:56 AM
To be honest, I have never cared what Europe thinks of America or American policies.

All I know is that they come crying to us every time there is a world problem on their doorstep... and then turns around and throws sand in our face most of the other time... except for the Brits.

God bless the Brits. They always complain.. even when we were over there in WWII... but they always back us... just like family.



What happens when we want them to do something for us? Why is burning bridges a benefit in your eyes?

fansince'76
11-06-2008, 07:58 AM
What happens when we want them to do something for us? Why is burning bridges a benefit in your eyes?

Two-way street, but I guess that doesn't matter, huh?

Vis
11-06-2008, 08:00 AM
Two-way street, but I guess that doesn't matter, huh?

It does matter. What country burned a bridge with us that you wish to discuss. Not blindly following us is not bridge burning.

xfl2001fan
11-06-2008, 08:00 AM
What happens when we want them to do something for us? Why is burning bridges a benefit in your eyes?

How long have we wanted additional support from the rest of the world and been denied? Collectively speaking, the rest of the world can kiss my arse. I got no beef with the Brits, Germans or Aussies at all. I've worked with a great number of them. But it just seems like we are the World Police...because nobody else can get their heads unstuck from their backside long enough to do anything about the stupidity abroad. It's UN "sanction letters" which is nothing more than 20-grit toilet paper to the people they are issued to.

Forget it. It should be I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine...and if you're going with the "French Method", EFF You.

fansince'76
11-06-2008, 08:23 AM
It does matter. What country burned a bridge with us that you wish to discuss. Not blindly following us is not bridge burning.

How about France, for starters? Do I really have to recount all the times they've stabbed us in the back since the end of WWII?

SCSTILLER
11-06-2008, 08:29 AM
It does matter. What country burned a bridge with us that you wish to discuss. Not blindly following us is not bridge burning.


So, when we ask them for additional troops in Afghanistan (a war they supported) and they snub their nose at us.

Are we supposed to ask their permission for every little thing that we do. That would really work out with the French. HMMMM. Iraq war, modern French weapons found, UN oil for food program fiasco, yeah, lets ask them for their permission all the time.

Plus, I have been to Europe hundreds of times. I was never looked "down" upon, never had a problem with the people. I never experienced this "bad" america feeling.

I have always been proud to be an American! And if it takes a new president to make you (no one in general) proud to be an American, well, I will just keep my opinion to myself on that one!

Vis
11-06-2008, 08:35 AM
So, when we ask them for additional troops in Afghanistan (a war they supported) and they snub their nose at us.

Are we supposed to ask their permission for every little thing that we do. That would really work out with the French. HMMMM. Iraq war, modern French weapons found, UN oil for food program fiasco, yeah, lets ask them for their permission all the time.

Plus, I have been to Europe hundreds of times. I was never looked "down" upon, never had a problem with the people. I never experienced this "bad" america feeling.

I have always been proud to be an American! And if it takes a new president to make you (no one in general) proud to be an American, well, I will just keep my opinion to myself on that one!

Permission? Who said permission? And who was speaking about pride? I think you're in the wrong thread.

HometownGal
11-06-2008, 08:40 AM
I appreciate the sentiment behind the article, SM, and appreciate you posting it! :drink:

All I can say here is that I've always been a proud American and I will continue to be a proud American no matter what happens down the road. My heart won't allow me to feel otherwise. :usa:

Vis
11-06-2008, 08:41 AM
I appreciate the sentiment behind the article, SM, and appreciate you posting it! :drink:

All I can say here is that I've always been a proud American and I will continue to be a proud American no matter what happens down the road. My heart won't allow me to feel otherwise. :usa:

But are you cool?

HometownGal
11-06-2008, 09:20 AM
But are you cool?

I'm totally cool. :thumbsup::tt03: Are you? :wink02:

Godfather
11-06-2008, 09:46 AM
How long have we wanted additional support from the rest of the world and been denied? Collectively speaking, the rest of the world can kiss my arse. I got no beef with the Brits, Germans or Aussies at all.

Poland. You forgot Poland.

Godfather
11-06-2008, 09:50 AM
To be honest, I have never cared what Europe thinks of America or American policies.


Well, it is nice to see that the Europeans are happy about the election. Of course their opinion has no bearing on my vote...we have to elect the best person for our country without regard to world opinion. Just like every other democracy does.

It does matter what they think of us, though. The only way we're going to win the war on Islamofascism is to starve the radical madrassas of their funding. And we can't do that alone. We could get to the point where we don't need one drop of Saudi oil, but it's for nothing if the Europeans just buy it instead. If we can get them on board and get them to embargo terrorist countries, the radical madrassas will disappear.

xfl2001fan
11-06-2008, 09:51 AM
Poland. You forgot Poland.

Sorry...didn't deal with them overseas at all. I have been to Germany and while I was deployed in 03, I worked a lot with Brits, Aussies and Germans. Great group of people. (BTW, don't mess with the Brits who have colorful feather sticking out of their hats....real men pull that off! LOL)

revefsreleets
11-06-2008, 09:58 AM
It's a very good thing for our estimation to rise in the eyes of the World. Why wouldn't it be. I've been saying for a long time that this would be a built-in benefit of electing Obama. I'm also proud of my country for moving past race to do so.

Our standing in the World needs to based on admiration as much as anything. Most people love and envy our culture and the American people in general (notice I said most, not all) but they have problems with our government. Having good will towards our governmnet can only help our standing in the World in th future.

Leftoverhard
11-06-2008, 10:05 AM
Nice article Mongol. I think it's hard for some Americans to look at the big picture sometimes and your story might put that into perspective for someone. I've been overseas quite a few times (non-military) and I can say it's a huge eye opener.
As for those of you who don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us - hopefully during the next 4 -8 years, you'll see why it's important.

X-Terminator
11-06-2008, 10:34 AM
I'm totally cool. :thumbsup::tt03: Are you? :wink02:

You definitely are cool, but I'd say you're more HOT! :lust:

PisnNapalm
11-06-2008, 11:14 AM
The election of a socialist to the Presidency of the United States is the saddest day in our history.

We should be ashamed of ourselves.

fansince'76
11-06-2008, 11:29 AM
Just to clarify my position here, I wasn't trying to say that we should completely ignore and disregard the rest of the world (primarily Europe) and their perceptions of us in an almost "neo-Monroe Doctrine" stance.

My heartburn with the article arose from the not-so-subtle implication that Americans should somehow be ashamed to be American, particularly considering the article was written by a self-described "longtime expatriate" of this country. I know it's become quite fashionable in recent years to adopt a self-loathing attitude if you're an American and to essentially hate your country due to the "evil" Bush Administration and all the "suffering it has foisted upon the world." To me at least, this article smacks of that sentiment, and I think that sentiment is a gigantic crock. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm EVER ashamed of being an American or I begin to "hate" myself for being one.

CantStop85
11-06-2008, 11:53 AM
It's a very good thing for our estimation to rise in the eyes of the World. Why wouldn't it be. I've been saying for a long time that this would be a built-in benefit of electing Obama. I'm also proud of my country for moving past race to do so.

Our standing in the World needs to based on admiration as much as anything. Most people love and envy our culture and the American people in general (notice I said most, not all) but they have problems with our government. Having good will towards our governmnet can only help our standing in the World in th future.

Yep. The election of Obama drew a lot of excitement and optimism from people around the world. His presidency certainly will not hurt foreign relations, at least to start.

I remember when I went to Morocco this summer, most of the people who I spoke to kept asking me about Obama and were generally very excited at the prospect of him becoming president (not only those of Muslim faith, but the Christian refugees from SubSaharan Africa probably even moreso).

That is why it's "cool" to be an American again. The article's not talking about being cool in our own eyes, but in the eyes of people of other nations.

xfl2001fan
11-06-2008, 11:56 AM
If they couldn't see America for the great nation it was...it's probably due to jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about what other's think of me. I'm my own person and don't need for anyone's approval to validate my USA Pride.

This article is BS to the 10th degree and people are buying into it.

RunWillieRun
11-06-2008, 12:11 PM
If they couldn't see America for the great nation it was...it's probably due to jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about what other's think of me. I'm my own person and don't need for anyone's approval to validate my USA Pride.

This article is BS to the 10th degree and people are buying into it.


:applaudit:

(who ever thought I'd do that for a Browns fan?!?!?)

revefsreleets
11-06-2008, 12:15 PM
If they couldn't see America for the great nation it was...it's probably due to jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about what other's think of me. I'm my own person and don't need for anyone's approval to validate my USA Pride.

This article is BS to the 10th degree and people are buying into it.

You know, the expression is "Walk softly, but carry a big stick".

We have the big stick, but we have not been walking very softly. This election will definitely help with that perception in the world. To not care what other countries or peoples think of us is not only myopic, it's counterintuitive to the very principles this country was founded upon. Our government and our constitution are supposed to be models to be admired and hopefully emulated by other nations around the world. We are supposed to be the gold standard, and that image has been tarnished as of late. I am in no way shape or form denouncing my own country, simply pointing out that through some recent mistakes and miscalculations, we have lost a little luster in the eyes of the World. If a net benefit of Obama's election is regaining some of that luster, I'm gonna take while the gettin's good.

HometownGal
11-06-2008, 12:16 PM
If they couldn't see America for the great nation it was...it's probably due to jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about what other's think of me. I'm my own person and don't need for anyone's approval to validate my USA Pride.

This article is BS to the 10th degree and people are buying into it.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/97/388497/1/64021719.CHPTbjAb.applause.gif

xfl2001fan
11-06-2008, 01:42 PM
You know, the expression is "Walk softly, but carry a big stick".

We have the big stick, but we have not been walking very softly. This election will definitely help with that perception in the world. To not care what other countries or peoples think of us is not only myopic, it's counterintuitive to the very principles this country was founded upon. Our government and our constitution are supposed to be models to be admired and hopefully emulated by other nations around the world. We are supposed to be the gold standard, and that image has been tarnished as of late. I am in no way shape or form denouncing my own country, simply pointing out that through some recent mistakes and miscalculations, we have lost a little luster in the eyes of the World. If a net benefit of Obama's election is regaining some of that luster, I'm gonna take while the gettin's good.

I understand where you are coming from Rev. I really do. And some of the "tarnish" is our fault. However, I still hold my head high as an American knowing that, while my country is far from perfect, it's as good as it get's in this world.

If other nations don't see it that way, it's their problem. If they want to look at the rust spots on my Statue of Liberty and point those out instead of enjoying the true beautiful spectacle of it as it is...should I hang my head in shame? It doesn't mean that we (as American's) shouldn't try to improve...but we should be no less proud today than we were 4 years ago.

I dont' see Obama being President as such a great accomplishment...but that's because I see a Man and only a Man. He's number 44 in a long line of Presidents...and while I truly believe he won't be the best we've ever had...I hope just as hard that he won't be our worst.

Some see Obama as walking quietly...I'm more afraid he's going to put the stick away. And where does that leave us?

My pride as an American is exactly where it should be. It's exactly where it was 11.5 years ago when I joined the finest military the world has ever seen. I've seen a lot of good and bad things happen to/from this great nation.

Allowing other's perceptions of us to affect us is allowing other's perceptions of us to control us.

I'm not saying we shouldn't care about other countries at all...but let's concern ourselves with ensuring we are doing the best we can possibly be doing...without looking for other's favor. Let's look internally to see how We The People feel we are doing.

Our founding fathers sure as hell didn't give a rats ass what England thought of us when they helped shape this country in it's initial stages. What our founding father's did do was look at what worked best in several other countries and tweak it into our Constitution. Who's approval did we have when this happened? They did what they truly felt was best for them and everyone else who was going to follow.

revefsreleets
11-06-2008, 07:25 PM
Bush stomped loudly and carried a huge stick. "Ugly American" comes to mind.

Clinton threaded sort of lightly and carried a medium sized stick ("proportionate responses" SUCK!). Clinton was too tied into opinion polls and it castrated his effectiveness.

Obama will have the stealth of a ninja and carry no weapon.

We need to find the balance of an FDR, a Kennedy or even a (gasp) D ick Nixon.

Obama will be another Carter. That helps in some arenas, but hurts in most.

tony hipchest
11-06-2008, 09:39 PM
If they couldn't see America for the great nation it was...it's probably due to jealousy.

I don't give a hoot about what other's think of me. I'm my own person and don't need for anyone's approval to validate my USA Pride.

This article is BS to the 10th degree and people are buying into it.
sorry, but i gotta call you out on this one. youre missing the entire big picture. youre focused on the words in the article and totally missing the gesture and the sentiment of the guy who posted it.


perhaps you havent been here long enough to know steelersmongol...


im more than happy to step up and defend one of my steeler bretheren (regardless of political affiliation). i have no idea whether the OP is rep or dem because he is mongolian living in mongolia. i do know he is proud of his heritage, and his countries history. what i also know is that he had the chance to live in america (i believe it was near detroit) and has totally embraced our country and culture and shown an incredible amount of american pride.

one needs to look no further than him being a steelers fan as proof of this. :tt02:

and if one needs further proof, after 9-11 he tried to join the US military and was denied because he wasnt a citizen. regardless, he kept trying, hoping the rules had changed. i guess he was willing to fight for a country that wasnt even "legally his".

im almost 100% certain SM thinks its cool to be an american no matter who is president.

im almost disappointed in the negative (dare i say "partisan"?) reaction this thread has received, not because of the content of the article, but because i feel it totally disrespects the intent of our steeler friend from abroad who posted it.

sorry if i stepped out of line for speaking on your behalf steelersmongol, but i thought it had to be said. :hatsoff:

and kudos to revs who actually "gets it"-


You know, the expression is "Walk softly, but carry a big stick".

We have the big stick, but we have not been walking very softly. This election will definitely help with that perception in the world. To not care what other countries or peoples think of us is not only myopic, it's counterintuitive to the very principles this country was founded upon. Our government and our constitution are supposed to be models to be admired and hopefully emulated by other nations around the world. We are supposed to be the gold standard, and that image has been tarnished as of late. I am in no way shape or form denouncing my own country, simply pointing out that through some recent mistakes and miscalculations, we have lost a little luster in the eyes of the World. If a net benefit of Obama's election is regaining some of that luster, I'm gonna take while the gettin's good.
there are some things that we may not agree on, BUT in reality, (outside of the cyberworld) there are a hell of alot more things that we do. :drink:

xfl2001fan
11-06-2008, 10:21 PM
In this, my views aren't likely to be swayed. Maybe it's my stubborness. I don't doubt that Steelersmongol is a great guy. However, I'm not sold on his viewpoints...and in this...you, rev, SM and I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

MasterOfPuppets
11-06-2008, 10:43 PM
mongol didn't write the article....:noidea:.... he just said congratulations on our new pres.....

tony hipchest
11-06-2008, 10:55 PM
Our founding fathers sure as hell didn't give a rats ass what England thought of us when they helped shape this country in it's initial stages. What our founding father's did do was look at what worked best in several other countries and tweak it into our Constitution. Who's approval did we have when this happened? They did what they truly felt was best for them and everyone else who was going to follow. i love being an american just as much as anyone, and i am just as proud of our founding fathers and what they accomplished, but slaughtering indians, and buying and selling slaves isnt exactly how we go about things in the 21st century.

things change. we no longer operate using the manifest destiny philosophy, and "carpe diem" is no longer our motto.

in reality we have pretty much conquered the world economically, and now we police it. im not saying i agree or disagree, but calling it as it is.

and now were about to see some "good cop, bad cop".

mongol didn't write the article....:noidea:.... he just said congratulations on our new pres.....

:applaudit: :cheers: :thumbsup:

i guess some peoples (must be brownies) still dont get it.

SteelersMongol
11-07-2008, 11:18 AM
mongol didn't write the article....:noidea:.... he just said congratulations on our new pres.....

Thank you. :hug:

So sorry about causing some arguments. And thank you for those who tried to look at it from the brighter side, especially Tony, MasterofPuppets, & others. I guess I have to make few things clearer.

When I originally posted it, there was no hidden agenda or no poking around. Let’s face it. This last election is kind of turning point into new era as the US is the biggest & most powerful & influential country in the world. Whether you like it or not, American foreign policy affects the world, and that’s why people around the globe pay lot of attention to it. That’s why some of them voice their opinions even though they have no influence in your election. Same as your neighbor who express his/her concern over somebody else’s teenage kid just because they live in same block. I know some of you guys say you don’t care about what the world think of the US since you think it’s your internal matter but the world is bigger, globalization is bringing us closer. And even I was actually surprised to see how much coverage this last Obama vs. McCain election was getting in many countries, including Mongolia.

When I was reading this article, I remembered how some of the Bush administration’s doings put some Americans in very difficult positions. I’m talking about the ones who live in overseas. I know how things can be sh*tty sometimes when you’re a foreigner who live in different country. You will notice all those things when you live in different country, the things that you didn’t really realize when you were living in your country. In the eyes of other people, whether you’re pro-Bush or not, you’ll always be an American. An American who is the citizen of the country that is running a war-show in the Middle East. Whether you drive a hybrid car or big *ss FORD, some people will always see you as an oil greedy American.

So, now when there is a President who says he will have different policy than the previous one, obviously there will be bunch of happy people who didn’t like the previous one. That was clearly shown in that article and that’s why I posted it here on SF.

As for me, yes, I admitted that I wanted to join in the military in the US, because first I have this military tradition thing going on in my family, second, … well, the US military is just COOL. I didn’t have a chance in my home country because I used to wear eye glasses, and our army doesn’t accept someone who wears glasses. That’s why I tried to enlist for the first time when I was in the states.

Believe me, I don’t like those religious fundamentalists at all and 9-11 affected all of us. That’s why I thought I could fight against those SOBs same as you. After two tries one would kinda give up, but when the war dragged on I just couldn’t just sit at home watching these young men & women’s faces on evening news who lost their lives dying for the freedom of others every week. Some of them were so young, it was so hard to just to think what kind of lives they’d have if there was no war. They could’ve been going to school & meet their sweethearts like I did, they could’ve had kids like I have, and they could’ve been still alive do some regular jobs and make their parents happy. Guess, God has different plans for each of us. :noidea:

But you know, politics aside, AMERICAN FOOTBALL is one of God's greatest inventions, and the STEELERS are the best team. :tt02:

MasterOfPuppets
11-07-2008, 05:44 PM
excellent post mongol......i would proud to have you as a fellow countrymen. many people here (this country) could learn a thing or two from you.....

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 06:04 PM
excellent post mongol......i would proud to have you as a fellow countrymen. many people here (this country) could learn a thing or two from you.....

Hey, that gives me an idea. We could create a new TV show and call it "Steeler Swap."
Steelermongol can move into MOP's house and work construction which will basically give him the winter off, and MOP can go to Mongolia and do whatever it is that Mongolians do. Genius? Perhaps.... :noidea:

MasterOfPuppets
11-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Hey, that gives me an idea. We could create a new TV show and call it "Steeler Swap."
Steelermongol can move into MOP's house and work construction which will basically give him the winter off, and MOP can go to Mongolia and do whatever it is that Mongolians do. Genius? Perhaps.... :noidea:winter off ??? :toofunny: i think not my friend..... they made insulated coveralls for a reason.

NJarhead
11-07-2008, 06:15 PM
Hey, that gives me an idea. We could create a new TV show and call it "Steeler Swap."
Steelermongol can move into MOP's house and work construction which will basically give him the winter off, and MOP can go to Mongolia and do whatever it is that Mongolians do. Genius? Perhaps.... :noidea:

If you're going to call it Steeler Swap then we should swap with a player. I want Dennis Dixon's job, pay and seat for the game. :chuckle:

Preacher
11-07-2008, 07:49 PM
It does matter. What country burned a bridge with us that you wish to discuss. Not blindly following us is not bridge burning.

France, Germany, Russia.

They all were taking money illegally in the UN oil for money scam.

Then, they stood up against the US when we were trying to go through the UN to force Iraq to finally come clean about WMD.

NONE of them cared about what America thought of them. So tell me, why should we care so much about them?

stillers4me
11-07-2008, 08:10 PM
France, Germany, Russia.

They all were taking money illegally in the UN oil for money scam.

Then, they stood up against the US when we were trying to go through the UN to force Iraq to finally come clean about WMD.

NONE of them cared about what America thought of them. So tell me, why should we care so much about them?

Bingo!

steelcity_88
11-07-2008, 08:23 PM
France, Germany, Russia.

They all were taking money illegally in the UN oil for money scam.

Then, they stood up against the US when we were trying to go through the UN to force Iraq to finally come clean about WMD.

NONE of them cared about what America thought of them. So tell me, why should we care so much about them?

Agreed. We didn't need them to find the those WMDs, we went in there anyways and found them ourselves! Oh wait..

MACH1
11-07-2008, 08:34 PM
Agreed. We didn't need them to find the those WMDs, we went in there anyways and found them ourselves! Oh wait..

Whats Obama going to do with Russia since their already allied with Iran talk them to sleep?And Russia wants to put missiles next to Poland's borders.

Speaking within hours of Barack Obama’s election, Mr Medvedev announced that Russia would base Iskander missiles in its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad – the former German city – next to the border with Poland.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5090077.ece

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 08:34 PM
Agreed. We didn't need them to find the those WMDs, we went in there anyways and found them ourselves! Oh wait..

Ummmm, if your mommy told you she was going to check your room for drugs in a year, would that give you enough time to move them without her knowing? Also, we had every right to go in there.

The Patriot
11-07-2008, 08:43 PM
Whats Obama going to do with Russia since their already allied with Iran talk them to sleep?And Russia wants to put missiles next to Poland's borders.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5090077.ece

Russia wants to put missiles next to Poland because Bush plans to put missiles in Poland. How about we stop putting missiles in Poland?

MACH1
11-07-2008, 09:02 PM
http://www.geekologie.com/2008/07/10/missiles-5.jpg

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 09:14 PM
http://www.geekologie.com/2008/07/10/missiles-5.jpg

LMAO!!!!!! that was hysterical! :rofl:

steelcity_88
11-07-2008, 09:21 PM
Whats Obama going to do with Russia since their already allied with Iran talk them to sleep?And Russia wants to put missiles next to Poland's borders.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5090077.ece

As one poster pointed out, Bush wants to put missiles in Poland. What are they to do? It's clearly showing aggression to the Russians. Should they just bend over and take it? Not that I am supporting their action to do so, but I can see where they are coming from. They have the obligation to protect their interests too, you know. Another ignorant move by Bush and company.

steelcity_88
11-07-2008, 09:28 PM
Ummmm, if your mommy told you she was going to check your room for drugs in a year, would that give you enough time to move them without her knowing? Also, we had every right to go in there.

If we had the intelligence info to know they had them, how come we couldn't find out where they went? How come it took so long to realize there were none? And how did we have "every right" to go in there? Was Iraq an American owned territory? There's a reason a majority of the world didn't go along with it, it was the wrong thing to do. Wasn't the invasion to find these WMDs and remove them from Saddam? He's dead, there are no weapons, why are we still there? I think you watch way too much of O'Reilly.

tony hipchest
11-07-2008, 09:38 PM
Whats Obama going to do with Russia since their already allied with Iran talk them to sleep? And Russia wants to put missiles next to Poland's borders.



put lipstick on a nuke and then launch it? or better yet... cut taxes on ALL americans so we can pay for an even BIGGER war? :chuckle:

or how bout just let poland handle it with their new technology until they need our help and then deploy our new raptors to flex some muscle and see what our new toys can do?

just to clear it up, we are putting PATRIOT missles in poland. its strictly a defensive measure, not an offensive threat. its a great deal. :thumbsup: it definitely sends a strong message to russia and i really dont think they want to start launching scuds into poland.

Preacher
11-07-2008, 09:53 PM
As one poster pointed out, Bush wants to put missiles in Poland. What are they to do? It's clearly showing aggression to the Russians. Should they just bend over and take it? Not that I am supporting their action to do so, but I can see where they are coming from. They have the obligation to protect their interests too, you know. Another ignorant move by Bush and company.


How blind can some people be in opposing the foriegn policy of this nation under President Bush.
The president and co. actually asked Russian to be partners in the shield. In essence, they would be allied with us in protecting Europe from Iranian missiles.

“We made some real headway in clearing up some misunderstanding about the technical characteristics of the system that are of concern to the Russians,” Mr. Gates said.
“The key to this is cooperation,” he added. “We would like to have the Russians as partners in this process. We would like to share information with them. We are prepared to co-locate radars with them.”
A joint missile defense effort offers “some real opportunity here for both sides,” Mr. Gates said. “And that involves a great deal of transparency on our part — and we are prepared to do that.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/world/europe/24gates.html

Now.

The real question is, what does Russia have up it's sleeve that they are so threatened by the US co-locating a missile shield? When they will actually get to share in the radar info, in truth, they become part of the radar picket-fence that we would use.

So why move back to a cold-war mentality when your former cold-war enemy has actually invited you to COME BE A PART OF THEIR DEFENSIVE POSTURE against a rogue nation developing nuclear weapons?

There are a few answers to this question. Most of which, are quite nefarious and point to a Russia that none of us want to see. That would be a real stretch, until we saw what they did in Georgia a couple months ago... to "Punish" them for having ties with the US.

Now you can play Partisan Politics all you want SC. But the fact is, we have a nation in Russia that is starting to look and act like the old USSR, but with a much better economy.

You think we have problems now? Back down from Russia. Give in to his threats now and see what happens. All the baltic and eastern European states that are reaching out to us disappear. THAT is a scary proposition.

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 10:01 PM
If we had the intelligence info to know they had them, how come we couldn't find out where they went? How come it took so long to realize there were none? And how did we have "every right" to go in there? Was Iraq an American owned territory? There's a reason a majority of the world didn't go along with it, it was the wrong thing to do. Wasn't the invasion to find these WMDs and remove them from Saddam? He's dead, there are no weapons, why are we still there? I think you watch way too much of O'Reilly.

Nope, they broke numerous resolutions. We had every right to legally go in there. Unfortunately our human intelligence was terrible because clinton LITERALLY gutted it in the 90's. It severely damaged our ability to gather accurate intelligence so we had to rely on the consensus from the intelligence from around the world as well as Hillary verifying it from "her own sources". Iraq knew a year ahead of time we were going in there. It was a piece of cake to move the WMD's. Don't watch O'Reilly but I know a pinhead when i see one. :chuckle:

Preacher
11-07-2008, 10:19 PM
Nope, they broke numerous resolutions. We had every right to legally go in there. Unfortunately our human intelligence was terrible because clinton LITERALLY gutted it in the 90's. It severely damaged our ability to gather accurate intelligence so we had to rely on the consensus from the intelligence from around the world as well as Hillary verifying it from "her own sources". Iraq knew a year ahead of time we were going in there. It was a piece of cake to move the WMD's. Don't watch O'Reilly but I know a pinhead when i see one. :chuckle:


Actually, I blame the lack of CIA ability on the 70's.

Let us be honest here. No president since then has done right by the CIA in the human asset department. They have put money in El-int instead of Hum-int. So I can't drop the problem in Clinton's lap.

However, you are absolutely right. EVERYONE believed Iraq had WMD.

We had the RESPONSIBILITY to go into Iraq because IRAQ violated the cease-fire treaty in from 1991.

Why did the other nations stand against us? Simple. Russia, France, and Germany were getting money under the table from Iraq. They are the largest countries in Europe. Just how much influence does anyone thing they really have?

tony hipchest
11-07-2008, 10:30 PM
Simple. Russia, France, and Germany were getting money under the table from Iraq. They are the largest countries in Europe.

:globe:

"you becha!" :wink02::wink02::wink02:

:sofunny:

Preacher
11-07-2008, 10:35 PM
:globe:

"you becha!" :wink02::wink02::wink02:

:sofunny:

Influence and economy wise... and Western Russia is considered Eastern europe!

:buttkick:

tony hipchest
11-07-2008, 10:44 PM
Influence and economy wise... and Western Russia is considered Eastern europe!

:buttkick:is northern africa also considered southern europe? lol. im not disagreeing with you, i just thought you "pullin a palin" was funny. :chuckle:

but yeah, russia is in asia. (primarilly. moving boarders and all)

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 11:26 PM
is northern africa also considered southern europe?

:rofl: gotta admit that was funny.

Preacher
11-07-2008, 11:35 PM
Ahhh..

It's such a shame when I have to edumacate people on my holidays!!

Anything west of the Ural mountains is considered European. That includes not only Moscow, but almost 500 miles east of Moscow.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/rularge.gif

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/rucolor.htm

GBMelBlount
11-07-2008, 11:35 PM
You're no fun Preach.

tony hipchest
11-07-2008, 11:39 PM
Ahhh..

It's such a shame when I have to edumacate people on my holidays!!

Anything west of the Ural mountains is considered European. That includes not only Moscow, but almost 500 miles east of Moscow.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/rularge.gif

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/rucolor.htm
yes, i know preacher.

any thing west of the urine or anal, or what is it? urals? is considered europe (which includes russias 2 most important cities). but geographically speaking "russia" is considered to be a part of asia.

dont try to explain this to palin. she may slap you. :chuckle: she can see it. you cant. so in reality it must be america.

Preacher
11-07-2008, 11:40 PM
You're no fun Preach.

:chuckle:

Gotta keep 'em honest!

Preacher
11-07-2008, 11:49 PM
yes, i know preacher.

any thing west of the urine or anal, or what is it? urals? is considered europe (which includes russias 2 most important cities). but geographically speaking "russia" is considered to be a part of asia.

dont try to explain this to palin. she may slap you. :chuckle: she can see it. you cant. so in reality it must be america.

Naaa.

Geographically, the european tectonic plate and the asian tectonic plate came together in the Ural mountains!

or did you mean politically?

Cause actually, it isn't true. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2625948
________________________


I bring it up not to "prove a point" But rather, there is a BIG issue surrounding this issue, and I think it will actually blow up on us over the next 8 years or so. Hopefully, Obama will be up for the tests that are assured to come to us.

The whole missile issue is about Russia seeing themselves as part of Europe and thus, that is their Sphere of Influence.


Isn't it amazing that just a little fun like we are having... actually has such serious political ramifications?

tony hipchest
11-08-2008, 12:03 AM
Naaa.

Geologically, the european tectonic plate and the asian tectonic plate came together in the Ural mountains!


there. fixed that for ya.

yo preach...

i guess its to soon, and i guess it was rather insensitive to compare your knowledge with that of palin :poke: i would be insulted too.

it was just a joke.

just get it, laugh, and we will move on.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eur.htm

Country Details

European Russia Description

European Russia is the mass of Russian land west of the Ural Mountains. It's indicated above in a medium shade of green, fronting Europe.

It is not a separate country, but rather commonly called European Russia because of its cultural, political and social blendings with European countries and peoples.

St. Petersburg and Moscow, (the capital) are located in European Russia. Regardless, the entire country is (geographically) still considered a part of Asia


hey steelersmongol, looking at the map and your location in your av, do you live in the capitol of mongolia?

augustashark
11-08-2008, 12:20 AM
Did someone say anal?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg/744px-Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg.png

tony hipchest
11-08-2008, 12:32 AM
looks like somebudies stil stuk on trieing to map out braincels.

stick with waht u know Jumpingthe shark.

(or should i just find a flag of boston to post for you?)

:rofl:

augustashark
11-08-2008, 12:44 AM
looks like somebudies stil stuk on trieing to map out braincels.

stick with waht u know Jumpingthe shark. :applaudit:

(or should i just find a fag of boston to post for you?)

:rofl:

:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::drink:

Preacher
11-08-2008, 12:45 AM
there. fixed that for ya.

yo preach...

i guess its to soon, and i guess it was rather insensitive to compare your knowledge with that of palin :poke: i would be insulted too.

it was just a joke.

just get it, laugh, and we will move on.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eur.htm



hey steelersmongol, looking at the map and your location in your av, do you live in the capitol of mongolia?

I know that...

I was actually turning the conversation a different way... concerning the future of Russia and Europe. There are some serious problems coming up.:wink02:

tony hipchest
11-08-2008, 01:04 AM
:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny::drink:

did someone say augustashark?

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/M-RainbowFlag.jpg

SteelersMongol
11-09-2008, 03:21 AM
...hey steelersmongol, looking at the map and your location in your av, do you live in the capitol of mongolia?

Yep. I'm in Ulaanbaatar. :wave: Was born & grew up here.

augustashark
11-09-2008, 03:45 AM
looks like somebudies stil stuk on trieing to map out braincels.

:

:noidea:

Are we allowed to call spelling police on this?:toofunny:

Steel12
11-09-2008, 11:34 PM
So, when we ask them for additional troops in Afghanistan (a war they supported) and they snub their nose at us.

Are we supposed to ask their permission for every little thing that we do. That would really work out with the French. HMMMM. Iraq war, modern French weapons found, UN oil for food program fiasco, yeah, lets ask them for their permission all the time.

Plus, I have been to Europe hundreds of times. I was never looked "down" upon, never had a problem with the people. I never experienced this "bad" america feeling.

I have always been proud to be an American! And if it takes a new president to make you (no one in general) proud to be an American, well, I will just keep my opinion to myself on that one!

Actually, there are numerous NATO forces in Afghanistan. I was there last year and they do more and sacrifice more troops than we do.

My president is black...never thought I'd ever say those words! I'm so excited to see what he can do for our country.

Preacher
11-10-2008, 02:30 AM
Actually, there are numerous NATO forces in Afghanistan. I was there last year and they do more and sacrifice more troops than we do.

My president is black...never thought I'd ever say those words! I'm so excited to see what he can do for our country.

Funny, in a sad sort of way.

1. I ALWAYS thought I would say those words, was actually sad I didn't get to say them 8 years ago with a young man named J.C. Watts.

2. Those words however, hold nothing else for me but a propositional statement. Our nation hasn't "arrived". We have a long way to go, on both sides. After all, if a black man ran as a republican, racism is still not only present, but accepted.

3. Clarify for me, please (No, I am not being ugly here, I am generally wondering), are you excited to see what a new president can do, what a black president as opposed to a white president can do, or what this man as opposed to another can do? On first read, I read it as an extension of your first propositional statement, that your excited to see what he can do since he is black. I wonder what the difference would be? Perception? Different understanding and a corrective to western-european meta-narratives?

Leftoverhard
11-10-2008, 10:44 AM
I'll answer that Preacher, because it could have been me that said it.
Is it important that Obama is black? In what context, because the answer is..................both.
His race has already proven important. In the context of what he can do - he's already done it. His run to the presidency has:
Opened up conversation on a massive scale on race and racism.
Broken a barrier for any people of color or minorities.
Shown the world that America is more than just talk when it comes to our "melting pot". (Some Americans don't care what the world thinks - trust me, the world cares what we think). So, perception - yes.
Even if, at this point, our electing of a black president is just symbolic, it's meaningful. Is Obama's race important in the context of taxes? No. Vetoes? No. Supreme Court Justices? No. Our place in the world and history? Yes.

Godfather
11-10-2008, 11:47 AM
2. Those words however, hold nothing else for me but a propositional statement. Our nation hasn't "arrived". We have a long way to go, on both sides. After all, if a black man ran as a republican, racism is still not only present, but accepted.



Sad but true. Just look at the sexism directed at Palin (and at Hillary in the primaries) by the media. They had the audacity to stand between the Chosen One and his birthright (the Oval Office).

After watching the MSM this election cycle, I'm not sure I'll see a woman President in my lifetime. And I'm only 33 with no reason to think I'll die young.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-10-2008, 02:03 PM
I think race should be left out of it entirely. Bringing up the fact that he is the first black president is racist. It makes it seem like a black person actually accomplishing something is a rarity, which it isn't. Any race of people is just as capable as another. He practically won the election based on racism/prejudice towards old white men.

Leftoverhard
11-10-2008, 02:50 PM
He practically won the election based on racism/prejudice towards old white men.

Uh...:noidea:...Um.....:noidea:....Uh...... :noidea:

Preacher
11-10-2008, 04:36 PM
I'll answer that Preacher, because it could have been me that said it.
Is it important that Obama is black? In what context, because the answer is..................both.
His race has already proven important. In the context of what he can do - he's already done it. His run to the presidency has:
Opened up conversation on a massive scale on race and racism.
Broken a barrier for any people of color or minorities.
Shown the world that America is more than just talk when it comes to our "melting pot". (Some Americans don't care what the world thinks - trust me, the world cares what we think). So, perception - yes.
Even if, at this point, our electing of a black president is just symbolic, it's meaningful. Is Obama's race important in the context of taxes? No. Vetoes? No. Supreme Court Justices? No. Our place in the world and history? Yes.

Let's see if I understand what you're saying... tell me if I don't get it.

For you, the importance of Obama as president is the empowerment of black people in America and the fact that we are the first European/Western nation (that I can recall) to elect a black man as president (and yeah, that is ABSOLUTELY something to be REAL proud of).

I understand and agree with that. I also agree with you on the issue of it being a melting pot.

Where I have the problems however, is that only a liberal black man is accepted. If it was a conservative black man, he is called all types of racial epithets and have things done to him that are absolutely despicable.

However, back to point. I was struck the phrase, What he can do for our country in a statement that started with his race. I was wondering if he (or you, at this point) think his race will enter into his ability to get things done, make changes, etc. The phrase just struck me... so I was interested in his answers.

Leftoverhard
11-10-2008, 11:25 PM
Where I have the problems however, is that only a liberal black man is accepted. If it was a conservative black man, he is called all types of racial epithets and have things done to him that are absolutely despicable.

Well, that hasn't happened (black conservative pres). How do you know? Obama hasn't been called racial ephitets?

However, back to point. I was struck the phrase, What he can do for our country in a statement that started with his race. I was wondering if he (or you, at this point) think his race will enter into his ability to get things done, make changes, etc. The phrase just struck me... so I was interested in his answers.

Since Steel12 isn't answering you, I'll answer you again - because I thought my post was pretty clear on defining why Obamas race is important in some contexts and why it isn't important on another level.

My president is black...never thought I'd ever say those words! I'm so excited to see what he can do for our country.

I really don't see what you see in these 2 sentences that would upset you. Even if Steel12 had said "I'm excited to see what our new black president can do for our country", I don't see what's wrong with that. What I want to know is, why don't you have an issue with this post....

He practically won the election based on racism/prejudice towards old white men.

Preacher
11-10-2008, 11:40 PM
Well, that hasn't happened (black conservative pres). How do you know? Obama hasn't been called racial ephitets?

Look at the things that were said about Colin Powell, look at the things that were said about Condi Rice, look at the things that were done to a black republican candidate in virginia. That is how I know.



Since Steel12 isn't answering you, I'll answer you again - because I thought my post was pretty clear on defining why Obamas race is important in some contexts and why it isn't important on another level.
I appreciated your answers. I was also wondering if a cultural distinction might be seen as a difference which may help... a "corrective" to western european thought. If so, it will be in more than one place. I am not saying this is bad at all. Actually, this is one of the areas that I am looking forward to seeing in his presidency.



I really don't see what you see in these 2 sentences that would upset you. Even if Steel12 had said "I'm excited to see what our new black president can do for our country", I don't see what's wrong with that. ..

I wasn't upset at his post at all. It got me thinking about how a change in perspective which America has not yet had would bring about a difference in governing. I was wondering what changes he (or you) saw coming in that matter. Thats all.

What I want to know is, why don't you have an issue with this post..
Because it was a single ignorant post not worth discussing. The post by Steel12 actually got me thinking about some things, and I wanted to poke a little further so that his (or your) answers would get me thinking further down a road I haven't yet thought through.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-11-2008, 03:52 AM
Ignorant post huh?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

Vote By Race:
White: 55% McCain, 43% Obama
African American: 4% McCain, 95% Obama

One of the reasons people voted for Obama was to get an African-American (be it only half) president in office. If that isn't racism, I don't know what is...

Everyone should have watched these before the election:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG4uppI_ttc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhYampIl7A&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imQSuJVFUSU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbW64215HA8

Leftoverhard
11-11-2008, 11:57 AM
I appreciated your answers. I was also wondering if a cultural distinction might be seen as a difference which may help... a "corrective" to western european thought. If so, it will be in more than one place. I am not saying this is bad at all. Actually, this is one of the areas that I am looking forward to seeing in his presidency.

This cultural distinction is something I'm excited about - I'm looking forward to it as well.

I wasn't upset at his post at all. It got me thinking about how a change in perspective which America has not yet had would bring about a difference in governing. I was wondering what changes he (or you) saw coming in that matter. Thats all.

Sorry for assuming that Preacher. Quite a few times I have heard people on this board say things like what you said in your original post Clarify for me, please (No, I am not being ugly here, I am generally wondering and then weren't genuine (like you clearly were) and were just baiting.

Because it was a single ignorant post not worth discussing. The post by Steel12 actually got me thinking about some things, and I wanted to poke a little further so that his (or your) answers would get me thinking further down a road I haven't yet thought through.

True that - Again, I've heard so much of this stuff on here, I've gotten pretty sick of just ignoring it. Well, that's cool that you're genuinely trying to see the other side of things - I have definately been learning how important other POV's or trains of thought are - It's like having a QB that can see the entire field instead of just one narrow field of vision (football analogy, imagine that, lol).

Preacher
11-11-2008, 04:20 PM
Ignorant post huh?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

Vote By Race:
White: 55% McCain, 43% Obama
African American: 4% McCain, 95% Obama

One of the reasons people voted for Obama was to get an African-American (be it only half) president in office. If that isn't racism, I don't know what is...

Everyone should have watched these before the election:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG4uppI_ttc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhYampIl7A&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imQSuJVFUSU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbW64215HA8

The turnout for the election out of the African American community was about 12 percent or so of the total electorate (going from memory) according to the exit polls. That is about AVERAGE for black turnout at election. Sure, there were more PEOPLE voting, but that is true across the races.

Also, saying they voted for a black man JUST because he is black is like saying 10's of millions of people voted for McCain JUST because he is white, since they are white.

Let me ask, if Obama was a Republican, do you really think 95% would have voted for Obama?

THere's no way. SO they voted for him, because he is a DEMOCRAT. Did it help that he is black? Yep. But knowing the story of black America, I lay no blame in wanting to break down that barrier.

revefsreleets
11-11-2008, 06:36 PM
I'll tell you what DID bother me (Warning: If you suffer from white guilt or can't stand straight talk about races, stop reading now) about this whole process, and that was the aftermath.

Why do I have to see Oprah Whoopi and Sherry Sheppard and all these other people all weepy and talking about how their community NOW has the opportunity to do whatever they want? They HAVE HAD the opportunity for a long time, but the black race has lagged behind every other culture in this Country in assimilating, and they brought it on themselves. Playing the race and victim card doesn't do anything but move them backwards as a race.

They are disproportionately under-represented in positions of wealth and authority because of this. Instead of buckling down and taking full advantage of the myriad opportunities this country offers like EVERY OTHER RACE AND CULTURE HAS, they have wallowed in self-pity which self-perpetuates the very myths they want to shake free of. This is not an indictment of the intelligence or ability of blacks. The entertainment and sports field is a prime example of what they can do as a race when they apply themselves, but there's this cultural thing there that those are the only outlets they have in this country. Bullshit. We just elected a black President who is as educated as any President we've ever had (Undergrad at Columbia, Harvard Law) with the exception of Clinton, and he accomplished this simply by taking advantage of ALL the opportunities available to him and made the best of them.

There was a time when the Chinese were the lowest on the totem pole. The Italians. The Irish. Being Catholic was considered trashy (it's not just about race, it's a cultural mentality), and the thing that all these races and cultures had in common was that they banded together, played up their strengths, and busted through their collective ceilings. I truly hope that African-Americans have finally realized that it's all right there for them, just like anyone else. This isn't the ends, this is the means.

Preacher
11-11-2008, 08:39 PM
I'll tell you what DID bother me (Warning: If you suffer from white guilt or can't stand straight talk about races, stop reading now) about this whole process, and that was the aftermath.

Why do I have to see Oprah Whoopi and Sherry Sheppard and all these other people all weepy and talking about how their community NOW has the opportunity to do whatever they want? They HAVE HAD the opportunity for a long time, but the black race has lagged behind every other culture in this Country in assimilating, and they brought it on themselves. Playing the race and victim card doesn't do anything but move them backwards as a race.

They are disproportionately under-represented in positions of wealth and authority because of this. Instead of buckling down and taking full advantage of the myriad opportunities this country offers like EVERY OTHER RACE AND CULTURE HAS, they have wallowed in self-pity which self-perpetuates the very myths they want to shake free of. This is not an indictment of the intelligence or ability of blacks. The entertainment and sports field is a prime example of what they can do as a race when they apply themselves, but there's this cultural thing there that those are the only outlets they have in this country. Bullshit. We just elected a black President who is as educated as any President we've ever had (Undergrad at Columbia, Harvard Law) with the exception of Clinton, and he accomplished this simply by taking advantage of ALL the opportunities available to him and made the best of them.

There was a time when the Chinese were the lowest on the totem pole. The Italians. The Irish. Being Catholic was considered trashy (it's not just about race, it's a cultural mentality), and the thing that all these races and cultures had in common was that they banded together, played up their strengths, and busted through their collective ceilings. I truly hope that African-Americans have finally realized that it's all right there for them, just like anyone else. This isn't the ends, this is the means.

Suit-- good questions. I am on my Bberry right now so I won't write out the answer I want, there are a few issues that need to be brought into the perspective...

augustashark
11-12-2008, 04:03 AM
The turnout for the election out of the African American community was about 12 percent or so of the total electorate (going from memory) according to the exit polls. That is about AVERAGE for black turnout at election. Sure, there were more PEOPLE voting, but that is true across the races.

Also, saying they voted for a black man JUST because he is black is like saying 10's of millions of people voted for McCain JUST because he is white, since they are white.

Let me ask, if Obama was a Republican, do you really think 95% would have voted for Obama?
THere's no way. SO they voted for him, because he is a DEMOCRAT. Did it help that he is black? Yep. But knowing the story of black America, I lay no blame in wanting to break down that barrier.


No, but he would have obtained a hell of a lot more then 4%. How much more I don't know. We may never know. One thing I do know is that I voted for Ken Blackwell for governor of Ohio in 2006. He received 20% of the black vote. I personally think he would have done better, but we all remember how bad things were for the republicans in 2006. I know that in Ohio it was tough for any republican to get elected with all the scandals and with one of the worst governors you will ever see.

T.Richardson
11-12-2008, 06:33 PM
The turnout for the election out of the African American community was about 12 percent or so of the total electorate (going from memory) according to the exit polls. That is about AVERAGE for black turnout at election. Sure, there were more PEOPLE voting, but that is true across the races.

Also, saying they voted for a black man JUST because he is black is like saying 10's of millions of people voted for McCain JUST because he is white, since they are white.

Let me ask, if Obama was a Republican, do you really think 95% would have voted for Obama?

THere's no way. SO they voted for him, because he is a DEMOCRAT. Did it help that he is black? Yep. But knowing the story of black America, I lay no blame in wanting to break down that barrier.

I believe Blacks wanted to see a black president. If he was a republican I bet he would still get at least 95% of black votes.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 06:46 PM
Not sure about that. The black community has been indoctrinated to hate the Republican Party for so long I think it'd be almost impossible to get them to "switch". Never mind that Lincoln and, yes, believe it or not, Nixon did a ton for African Americans, it's just too ingrained. I honestly think the GOP missed the boat by abandoning that voting bloc completely in the last election. The Republicans have a sound and strong message that could and should resonate with a big percentage of black voters, but they've never really pursued it.

Abandoning the Hispanic vote was political suicide, especially considering all the in-roads Bush had forged.

Preacher
11-12-2008, 06:53 PM
Not sure about that. The black community has been indoctrinated to hate the Republican Party for so long I think it'd be almost impossible to get them to "switch". Never mind that Lincoln and, yes, believe it or not, Nixon did a ton for African Americans, it's just too ingrained. I honestly think the GOP missed the boat by abandoning that voting bloc completely in the last election. The Republicans have a sound and strong message that could and should resonate with a big percentage of black voters, but they've never really pursued it.

Abandoning the Hispanic vote was political suicide, especially considering all the in-roads Bush had forged.


You know Rev...

For how far apart the genesis of any given progression of logic may be between us, we sure do end up pretty much on the same page most of the time.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 07:10 PM
I am a real and true centrist. I call 'em like i see 'em, and am completely unbiased, nor am I trapped by any dogma or party platform or indoctrination. I have no agenda. It's incredibly enlightening to have absolute freedom; to be beholden to no one or no thing.

I just read a lot and call my shots.

Steel12
11-16-2008, 10:07 PM
Funny, in a sad sort of way.

1. I ALWAYS thought I would say those words, was actually sad I didn't get to say them 8 years ago with a young man named J.C. Watts.

2. Those words however, hold nothing else for me but a propositional statement. Our nation hasn't "arrived". We have a long way to go, on both sides. After all, if a black man ran as a republican, racism is still not only present, but accepted.

3. Clarify for me, please (No, I am not being ugly here, I am generally wondering), are you excited to see what a new president can do, what a black president as opposed to a white president can do, or what this man as opposed to another can do? On first read, I read it as an extension of your first propositional statement, that your excited to see what he can do since he is black. I wonder what the difference would be? Perception? Different understanding and a corrective to western-european meta-narratives?

I'm a black man myself so if you're thinking I'm being racist, you're wrong. I'm excited for my people first and foremost. But I'm also excited to see if he can do what he promised to do for our country. I'm in the military and I'm tired of going across the water and leaving my family for a war that should've never happened in the first place. Hope that answered your question. :drink:

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-16-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm a black man myself so if you're thinking I'm being racist, you're wrong. I'm excited for my people first and foremost. But I'm also excited to see if he can do what he promised to do for our country. I'm in the military and I'm tired of going across the water and leaving my family for a war that should've never happened in the first place. Hope that answered your question. :drink:

What exactly do you mean by "your people"? Shouldn't we all just leave race/gender out of it all together? It almost detracts from someone accomplishments saying that "he is the first black man to..." or "she is the first woman to..." It makes it seem like it is a rarity for a certain race/gender/etc. to accomplish something. Like they are somehow inadequate.

Also, you signed up to be a soldier first and foremost and serve whoever is Commander in Chief.

Steel12
11-16-2008, 10:38 PM
I'll tell you what DID bother me (Warning: If you suffer from white guilt or can't stand straight talk about races, stop reading now) about this whole process, and that was the aftermath.

Why do I have to see Oprah Whoopi and Sherry Sheppard and all these other people all weepy and talking about how their community NOW has the opportunity to do whatever they want? They HAVE HAD the opportunity for a long time, but the black race has lagged behind every other culture in this Country in assimilating, and they brought it on themselves. Playing the race and victim card doesn't do anything but move them backwards as a race.

They are disproportionately under-represented in positions of wealth and authority because of this. Instead of buckling down and taking full advantage of the myriad opportunities this country offers like EVERY OTHER RACE AND CULTURE HAS, they have wallowed in self-pity which self-perpetuates the very myths they want to shake free of. This is not an indictment of the intelligence or ability of blacks. The entertainment and sports field is a prime example of what they can do as a race when they apply themselves, but there's this cultural thing there that those are the only outlets they have in this country. Bullshit. We just elected a black President who is as educated as any President we've ever had (Undergrad at Columbia, Harvard Law) with the exception of Clinton, and he accomplished this simply by taking advantage of ALL the opportunities available to him and made the best of them.

There was a time when the Chinese were the lowest on the totem pole. The Italians. The Irish. Being Catholic was considered trashy (it's not just about race, it's a cultural mentality), and the thing that all these races and cultures had in common was that they banded together, played up their strengths, and busted through their collective ceilings. I truly hope that African-Americans have finally realized that it's all right there for them, just like anyone else. This isn't the ends, this is the means.

Are you really comparing one black man to millions of under-priviledged black people? That's bullshit! Obama wasn't brought up in the projects having to fight or struggle for anything. The millions of black people on welfare struggling to make ends meet wont be able to send their child to Harvard or Columbia. Even if the child was smart enough to get a full scholarship, do you realize the obstacles he/she has to go thru? It's so easy to sit back and say there are no excuses for black people now but that is a dumb statement. There are still powerful white people that continue to have the "good ol boy" mentality and will not hire people of color for those positions of wealth and authority you mentioned. You still see it in the military also but I won't go there.

What do you know about the race card...seriously? It's frustrating to hear SOME white people claim to know what we're going thru and try to tell us how to be a better race like we're beneath you. I know you were just giving your opinion and I'm trying my best not to come off as upset but it's difficult not to.

Steel12
11-16-2008, 10:43 PM
What exactly do you mean by "your people"? Shouldn't we all just leave race/gender out of it all together? It almost detracts from someone accomplishments saying that "he is the first black man to..." or "she is the first woman to..." It makes it seem like it is a rarity for a certain race/gender/etc. to accomplish something. Like they are somehow inadequate.

Also, you signed up to be a soldier first and foremost and serve whoever is Commander in Chief.

Black people is what I mean by my people. Leaving race out of it wouldn't give the accomplishment of Obama its due. Saying that he is the first black man to be President is a fact so what's wrong with that?

I know that what I signed up for...and I have served Clinton, Bush and now Obama with integrity. What are you implying?

Preacher
11-16-2008, 10:54 PM
I'm a black man myself so if you're thinking I'm being racist, you're wrong. I'm excited for my people first and foremost. But I'm also excited to see if he can do what he promised to do for our country. I'm in the military and I'm tired of going across the water and leaving my family for a war that should've never happened in the first place. Hope that answered your question. :drink:

Yep. Thanks.

I understand what your saying to Revef. . .However, there are a lot of issues tied up with that... including internal black pressure in the projects and inner cities to NOT perform in school, work, etc. in order to not show up anyone else.

I was quite amazed by it when I saw it.

BTW, thank you for your service.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-16-2008, 11:04 PM
Saying you are tired of leaving your family to go to war, but that is exactly what you signed up to do. No disrespect intended as I have to utmost respect for our armed forces. I just run into a lot of people that complain about having to actually be a soldier when that is exactly what they signed up to be. I'm not saying this is you, but that is how it came across. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.

Why is calling Obama the 44th President not giving his accomplishment its due? If McCain won would it make any sense to call him the 44th white president? Who cares what color he is as long as he gets the job done. I like how everyone only talks about his black heritage, but not his white heritage. Hell, he was raised by a white family. Why did everyone choose to make him the first "black" president? That seems quite racist to me.

Also, while I understand where you are coming from about the obstacles that a black child has to face, most of those come from the black community in the first place. How come such horrible things are glorified in rap music? It seems so much more appealing to be a cop killing drug dealer than to be a doctor or a teacher. How come any black person that educates themselves and actually makes something of themselves are accused to being "white" or an "Uncle Tom"? (Don't get me into how stupid it is to call someone an Uncle Tom)

I know I will probably catch flak for what I have said and what I am about to say because I am white, but I am still allowed to make observations. To me the black community as a whole is like a crab bucket. Every time someone tries to climb out of that bucket of blame and victim-hood, a hater reaches up and pull him right back in.

Preacher
11-16-2008, 11:13 PM
Saying you are tired of leaving your family to go to war, but that is exactly what you signed up to do. No disrespect intended as I have to utmost respect for our armed forces. I just run into a lot of people that complain about having to actually be a soldier when that is exactly what they signed up to be. I'm not saying this is you, but that is how it came across. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.

Why is calling Obama the 44th President not giving his accomplishment its due? If McCain won would it make any sense to call him the 44th white president? Who cares what color he is as long as he gets the job done. I like how everyone only talks about his black heritage, but not his white heritage. Hell, he was raised by a white family. Why did everyone choose to make him the first "black" president? That seems quite racist to me.

Also, while I understand where you are coming from about the obstacles that a black child has to face, most of those come from the black community in the first place. How come such horrible things are glorified in rap music? It seems so much more appealing to be a cop killing drug dealer than to be a doctor or a teacher. How come any black person that educates themselves and actually makes something of themselves are accused to being "white" or an "Uncle Tom"? (Don't get me into how stupid it is to call someone an Uncle Tom)

I know I will probably catch flak for what I have said and what I am about to say because I am white, but I am still allowed to make observations. To me the black community as a whole is like a crab bucket. Every time someone tries to climb out of that bucket of blame and victim-hood, a hater reaches up and pull him right back in.

While that statement can't be made as a whole, That point is exactly what I was making in specific in the two areas that I did church work in.

Steel12
11-16-2008, 11:20 PM
Yep. Thanks.

I understand what your saying to Revef. . .However, there are a lot of issues tied up with that... including internal black pressure in the projects and inner cities to NOT perform in school, work, etc. in order to not show up anyone else.

I was quite amazed by it when I saw it.

BTW, thank you for your service.

True...there are some things we have to work on but so does everybody else. I hope nobody here thinks I'm just trying to argue.

Thank you for thanking me.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-16-2008, 11:30 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l0q5xbjy_Do&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l0q5xbjy_Do&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

The second half of this video is what I mean by the crab bucket theory.

Preacher
11-16-2008, 11:36 PM
True...there are some things we have to work on but so does everybody else. I hope nobody here thinks I'm just trying to argue.

Thank you for thanking me.

Nope. I don't think you're trying to argue. The larger issue here which many people either don't understand, or want to address, is one of perspective of history. White European perspective is a forward looking, individualistic perspective. Its not about what was, but about what will be, and every person has an ability to achieve.

The black perspective is a contemporaneity perspective very similar to the jewish perspective.

That perspective sees a person as part of a whole, and the whole is diachronic. Thus, when the black man thinks about his struggles, he thinks about black struggles from the first black man on the slave ship to the newest child born.

Many differences between how white and black think come from that difference.

Steel12
11-16-2008, 11:39 PM
Saying you are tired of leaving your family to go to war, but that is exactly what you signed up to do. No disrespect intended as I have to utmost respect for our armed forces. I just run into a lot of people that complain about having to actually be a soldier when that is exactly what they signed up to be. I'm not saying this is you, but that is how it came across. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.

Why is calling Obama the 44th President not giving his accomplishment its due? If McCain won would it make any sense to call him the 44th white president? Who cares what color he is as long as he gets the job done. I like how everyone only talks about his black heritage, but not his white heritage. Hell, he was raised by a white family. Why did everyone choose to make him the first "black" president? That seems quite racist to me.

Also, while I understand where you are coming from about the obstacles that a black child has to face, most of those come from the black community in the first place. How come such horrible things are glorified in rap music? It seems so much more appealing to be a cop killing drug dealer than to be a doctor or a teacher. How come any black person that educates themselves and actually makes something of themselves are accused to being "white" or an "Uncle Tom"? (Don't get me into how stupid it is to call someone an Uncle Tom)

I know I will probably catch flak for what I have said and what I am about to say because I am white, but I am still allowed to make observations. To me the black community as a whole is like a crab bucket. Every time someone tries to climb out of that bucket of blame and victim-hood, a hater reaches up and pull him right back in.

No worries...even though we are soldiers and know what signed up for, we are still human and hate leaving our loved ones. But I know what I have to do and I suck it up when the time comes...and it's coming again in January lol.

Because of all the shit minorities have been thru in this country, this is very special. That's why I think it's important to acknowledge the fact he is the first. I've seen plenty of documentaries on Obama's mother. I do understand where you're coming from as far as nobody speaking on his white side but his white side didn't descend from an oppressed race.

There is a "crab in a bucket" type mentality in the hood. Rap music is just that...music. To blame one form of music isn't right. There are plenty of positive rap artists out ther but nobody seems to acknowledge them. But you have to understand that the rappers whose lyrics are about drugs and pimpin come from that background (well most of them because there are fake ones out there). If all you know is getting harrassed by cops, selling drugs and pimpin hoze, that's all you will talk about. People being referred to as Uncle Tom is slowing down now. Kids aren't afraid of being smart now. But I think the reason people were being called Uncle Tom is because they would leave the hood and forget all about the people that made them who they were. They were so afraid of what the "white man" thinks that they'd lie about where they were from to avoid being looked at differently.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-17-2008, 12:25 AM
Well, if you think about it, Obama's father was from Kenya, so he never lived through American oppression either. (Weren't Africans some of the first to start the slave trade amongst one another? Why don't African Americans blame one another or people in Africa for slavery?) Though his a His mother was English and Irish, they have been oppressing each other for eons! :flap: He grew up much more sheltered and wealthy than I did. He is more removed from the struggles of the poor black families than I am. My family is from Poland and I am only 3rd generation from Poland. You don't think the Polish were oppressed and taken advantage when they got here? My mother grew up in a ghetto neighborhood near Carnegie called Arch Street, she knows what it is like to be poor and oppressed much more than Obama could ever dream.

My point is that he doesn't "identify" with the poor black community at all. He just used that to his advantage to gain more votes.

On rap music, why is it that such horrible things are glorified though? How come the rap artists that don't pollute the airwaves with filth are no where near as popular? How come no one in the black community dogs rich black people who aren't doing a thing to help them, but will tear into a rich white person? The closest a rich black person has been to a poor black community is through a T.V. or radio making women seem like property, making murder and rape attractive somehow, and contributing to that community staying poor and riddled with crime.

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I know my thoughts aren't flowing too well, I have had a bit much to drink (celebrating the win!:drink:). I hope I am not sounding narrow minded or bigoted, I am just trying to have an intelligent conversation.

Thanks again for your great service to our country, God bless you, and lets continue to talk :wave:

Preacher
11-17-2008, 12:39 AM
Well, if you think about it, Obama's father was from Kenya, so he never lived through American oppression either. (Weren't Africans some of the first to start the slave trade amongst one another? Why don't African Americans blame one another or people in Africa for slavery?) Though his a His mother was English and Irish, they have been oppressing each other for eons! :flap: He grew up much more sheltered and wealthy than I did. He is more removed from the struggles of the poor black families than I am. My family is from Poland and I am only 3rd generation from Poland. You don't think the Polish were oppressed and taken advantage when they got here? My mother grew up in a ghetto neighborhood near Carnegie called Arch Street, she knows what it is like to be poor and oppressed much more than Obama could ever dream.

My point is that he doesn't "identify" with the poor black community at all. He just used that to his advantage to gain more votes.

On rap music, why is it that such horrible things are glorified though? How come the rap artists that don't pollute the airwaves with filth are no where near as popular? How come no one in the black community dogs rich black people who aren't doing a thing to help them, but will tear into a rich white person? The closest a rich black person has been to a poor black community is through a T.V. or radio making women seem like property, making murder and rape attractive somehow, and contributing to that community staying poor and riddled with crime.

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I know my thoughts aren't flowing too well, I have had a bit much to drink (celebrating the win!:drink:). I hope I am not sounding narrow minded or bigoted, I am just trying to have an intelligent conversation.

Thanks again for your great service to our country, God bless you, and lets continue to talk :wave:

This is always a good conversation,

but may I suggest you continue the conversation when. . . um . . a bit more lucid? :chuckle:

That way you can remember it tomorrow!!!

revefsreleets
11-17-2008, 10:22 AM
Are you really comparing one black man to millions of under-priviledged black people? That's bullshit! Obama wasn't brought up in the projects having to fight or struggle for anything. The millions of black people on welfare struggling to make ends meet wont be able to send their child to Harvard or Columbia. Even if the child was smart enough to get a full scholarship, do you realize the obstacles he/she has to go thru? It's so easy to sit back and say there are no excuses for black people now but that is a dumb statement. There are still powerful white people that continue to have the "good ol boy" mentality and will not hire people of color for those positions of wealth and authority you mentioned. You still see it in the military also but I won't go there.

What do you know about the race card...seriously? It's frustrating to hear SOME white people claim to know what we're going thru and try to tell us how to be a better race like we're beneath you. I know you were just giving your opinion and I'm trying my best not to come off as upset but it's difficult not to.

It's symbolic. There are also tens of millions of white people in exactly the same boat, "trapped" so to speak, but race is NEVER brought up in their case: It's just assumed because they are white they have some kind of advantage. Guess what? They don't.

It's just as hard for a poor struggling white people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Strike that. Harder. White people don't have affirmative action.

The race card is like the "N" word. As long as value is assigned to it, it'll be an issue. What I "know about it" is that it exists, and it shouldn't.

What your race is going through is no different than what the Catholics went through. The Chinese. The Irish. The Italians. But what they did was band together and create their own way into positions of wealth and power by working through (and sometimes around) the system. They cooperated to establish strong civic and community ties, to make themselves collectively powerful. They assimilated. The black community has taken longer to do these things, and blaming white people for it can only go so far.

I'm not sure why you are condemning me for "my" opinion. It's not just mine, I'm repeating what I hear from black people who aren't afraid to have an open and honest dialogue on race with me. THEY tell me the state of their race and how relations play out between black people. You are killing the messenger for the message here...

Leftoverhard
11-17-2008, 10:43 AM
Why don't African Americans blame one another or people in Africa for slavery?

I don't see a lot of black people "blaming" anyone for slavery. What affects people now is the aftermath of slavery - racism, lynching, oppression - freedom, equality, the right to vote - which black people (and some white, brown, yellow and red people) have had to fight tooth and nail for since slavery ended. I'm not trying to be a jerk but this reminds me a little bit of when I tried to explain the 90's to an 18 year old the other day.

My point is that he doesn't "identify" with the poor black community at all. He just used that to his advantage to gain more votes.

How's that?

On rap music, why is it that such horrible things are glorified though? How come the rap artists that don't pollute the airwaves with filth are no where near as popular?

Rap music is not the voice of black people. Rap music is music. Just like heavy metal is music. And heavy metal makes people kill, right?

How come no one in the black community dogs rich black people who aren't doing a thing to help them, but will tear into a rich white person?

You need to cite some sort of reference here. Who is "tearing into" rich white people? Like Oprah? So all poor black people should be magically saved by Oprah. Strange.

The closest a rich black person has been to a poor black community is through a T.V. or radio making women seem like property, making murder and rape attractive somehow, and contributing to that community staying poor and riddled with crime.

Are you talking about rap? Have you listened to rap? I think Insane Clown Posse is a bunch of white guys. So........let me get your reasoning straight here. Rap is the main reason some black people are poor and rich black people don't know anything about what their poor counterparts go through on a daily basis. I don't get it. Maybe it was because you were drunk, hopefully you can post again on this and clear some things up.

SteelersMongol
11-17-2008, 10:44 AM
...<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N0X4ZLlHgxQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N0X4ZLlHgxQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>...

Thanks IBBAG. :thumbsup: It was great clip. Made want 2 look into his books. :applaudit: And I've always been a big fan of Mr. Cosby.

Leftoverhard
11-17-2008, 10:57 AM
It's just as hard for a poor struggling white people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Strike that. Harder. White people don't have affirmative action.


Why don't you get how false what you just said is?
Racism is not just a word. It is something that affects people on a daily basis in mostly hidden ways that you, as a white person will not ever experience or even hear about. Most black people don't talk about it to white people because most white people will accuse them of complaining. Racism and oppression aren't simple things that someone can just "put behind them."
Not all people have bootstraps.

revefsreleets
11-17-2008, 11:00 AM
Why don't you get how false what you just said is?
Racism is not just a word. It is something that affects people on a daily basis in mostly hidden ways that you, as a white person will not ever experience or even hear about. Most black people don't talk about it to white people because most white people will accuse them of complaining. Racism and oppression aren't simple things that someone can just "put behind them."
Not all people have bootstraps.

This is self-fufilling prophesy. Are you saying that the Chinese were different? The Irish? There was a time when the Irish were called "white ners", and looked down upon as scum by WHITE PEOPLE.

But they found a way to become more than that. The question becomes what did they do differently then the black community has been doing, and is doing now?

And they did it without affirmative action, or playing the race card.

Leftoverhard
11-17-2008, 11:29 AM
This is self-fufilling prophesy. Are you saying that the Chinese were different? The Irish? There was a time when the Irish were called "white ners", and looked down upon as scum by WHITE PEOPLE.

But they found a way to become more than that. The question becomes what did they do differently then the black community has been doing, and is doing now?

And they did it without affirmative action, or playing the race card.

Irish people had skin color going for them making it easier to assimilate. Black people are black, so do the math. Chinese people are still a very small minority in America - and if you think Chinese people don't deal with racism you're mistaken. Oh, and they weren't brought here as slaves. Black civil rights is also much more recent - meaning black people have only had the rights that we all take for granted for a short period of time. Those are big differences. Why ignore the past? Why (because you in affect are saying "the slate is clear") do you think it should be easy for people who actually know and experience the nuances and realities of racism daily to just accept that? It's not that simple.

Godfather
11-17-2008, 11:41 AM
Irish people had skin color going for them making it easier to assimilate. Black people are black, so do the math.

Yep--Irish immigrants could hide just by changing their names. So could German immigrants (John Kerry's grandfather for example). Catholics became harder to keep down after the Civil Rights Act made it illegal to ask someone's religion on a job application.

You can't hide being black in most cases.

revefsreleets
11-17-2008, 11:57 AM
Middle Easterners assimilate. Think they haven't had a rough run post-9/11? And they are obviously overtly "different". It's one of the main reasons we haven't had many terrorist attacks since 9/11. The Arabs/Muslims who live here feel like they are "in the fold".

The US is one of the least racist, if not THE least racist country in the world. And, on a personal level, I have nothing to do with racism. I have prejudices, but no more or less than any other person. My overriding point is that I don't feel guilty personally or for my Country in general. We are it. This is as good as it gets.

ANY race can accomplish whatever goals they collectively work together toward achieving, REAGARDLESS of outside adverse forces. But it takes a shared vision. I don't think the black community has that, and part of the reason is that that community focuses too much attention on past grievances and playing the blame game.

Again, this is not just something I made up. A common theme amongst black people I talk with (the one's who will open up and engage in honest racial discussions) repeatedly talk about their race holding each other down and not reaching out to help each other, also spending too much energy palcing blame and not enough on moving forward.

Oh, and one other thing. Of course I'm not black, but don't tell me that that eliminates me from knowing how it feels to be judged based on appearance. I was a big fat ass at one point. People judged me based on my weight. I used to have long hair and sing in a metal band, and there was overt prejudice against that "look". Sure racism trumps that, but it's all a matter of degree. I've seen people hate me just because of the way I look, and I understand the frustration that accompanies that.

Godfather
11-17-2008, 01:29 PM
There's also a lot of Middle Easterners who changed their names to Jose after 9/11.

I agree that we are the least racist country in the world. But we aren't perfect. There is still discrimination. Most black people in America have overcome that and productive citizens like everyone else. The inner cities have a lot of exceptions. Just like the trailer parks, except nobody judges all white people by stupid rednecks.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-17-2008, 02:24 PM
Maybe because we don't glorify rednecks in every aspect of our culture? You don't think I got looked down upon when I moved from Alabama to Indiana and people were surprised that I owned shoes? Though I am not originally from Alabama, I am lumped in with the stereotypical redneck from Alabama. Even though I am not a racist, I speak non-regional English, and I have good hygiene.

And don't even compare ICP to gangster rappers. ICP have never topped the charts with their records, but the billboard top 100 is dominated by rap artists. It is rather obvious that rap music is much more influential than ICP or the like.

I'm not saying rap music is the main reason why poor black communities stay poor, but the glorification of the ghetto, drugs, prostitution, etc. sure as hell aren't helping. It makes the "thug life" a helluva lot more attractive than climbing out of the bucket.

Why is it that some members of the black community like the links I have posted can speak up and take responsibility for themselves, but many can't?

Like I said earlier my family came here through Ellis Island 3 generations ago with absolutely nothing. My grandparents and my mother lived in a ghetto neighborhood outside of Carnegie. My grandmother worked in a factory making vacuum bags and my grandfather on the railroads. My family came here as poor Polish immigrants. Considered scum by everyone. They heard all the racial slurs, jokes, etc... felt the prejudice, but they overcame it. They made something of themselves. They didn't wallow in self pity and victim-hood saying "oh, I am just a poor Pollock, I will never amount to anything."

A personal friend of mine from Lebanon immigrated here right after 9/11. You don't think he has been the victim of prejudice? His family came here with clothes on their backs, and that's it. They didn't even have shoes on their feet. Now, they own their own small restaurant and are starting to grow here. You don't think they have faced their fair share of struggles with a middle eastern accent, skin color, and names? How were they able to overcome their oppression and make something of themselves?

I don't disrespect my great grandparents who came here with nothing and were treated like dogs by even pretending I have any idea the struggles they went through. Just like a black person now has no idea what their ancestors went through and are disrespecting them by thinking otherwise.

lamberts-lost-tooth
11-17-2008, 02:58 PM
This thread needs to go away....

Its cool to be an American because....

1) My wife...my Kids...and I can pray to the God of our choice

2) I may not agree with the stance or the words of my neighbor, but I understand and appreciate "Freedom" enough to lay down my life so that he can have his opinion.

3) I can sit on an island's beach...ski down a snow covered mountain...drive through a desert....camp in the woods...and do it all on American soil.

4) I can look across miles and miles of corn, wheat, soybeans...and know that our country feeds a good portion of the world.

5) I have belonged to a military that has bled and died on foreign shores...and scores of other countries still say thank you by laying flowers on the graves of American Soldiers who never made it back to the states.

6) We are "unique" in that we are the only country in the world guaranteed with a right to arm ourselves against our own government...if needed.

7) Immigrants from all backgrounds have more of a chance to prosper in this country than anywhere in the world.

8) More so than anywhere else that I have ever been...a man here IS judged by the content of his heart and NOT the color of his skin.

9) I have a voice in government at all levels

10) My son and daughter have the possiblity to better themselves through hard work and perseverance and the greatest hindrance to achieving that dream will be the lack of those two things.


'nuff said.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-17-2008, 09:45 PM
I agree with all you said LLT, except that the thread needs to go away. I think we are having a good old fashioned "brain floss" discussion.

revefsreleets
11-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Yeah, the thread has turned. Any time we can have open and honest racial dialogue it's a good thing...