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lamberts-lost-tooth
11-11-2008, 01:53 PM
Column: Don't blame Arians for Steelers' mistakes
By Mike Bires, Times Sports Staff
Published: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:59 PM EST


There’s plenty of blame to go around for the Steelers’ latest loss. But I don’t find much fault with offensive coordinator Bruce Arians.

On Monday, radio talk-show callers took turns blasting Arians’ play calling.

For the most part, I think Arians’ decisions were right on the mark.

Going against a defense that ranked 25th in the NFL in stopping the run, Arians tried to establish a running game. Unfortunately for the Steelers, their much-maligned offensive line could not block well enough to get Mewelde Moore untracked.

Not counting their last possession when they had to throw on almost every snap in a two-minute offense, the Steelers ran 20 first-down plays against the Colts. They ran the football on 13 of them.

The problem was that they didn’t run with much success. Of those 13 runs, 10 gained 2 yards or less.

The Colts’ defense came into the game allowing 4.2 yards per carry.

On those 13 first-down runs, the Steelers averaged 1.4 yards per carry.

That is not Arians’ fault. Blame goes to the Steelers’ assigned to block on those plays. They simply failed to execute their blocks.

-- Arians is getting ripped for calling that ill-fated pass late in the first half that the Colts intercepted deep in Steelers’ territory.

The Steelers, leading 17-7, had the ball on their own 16-yard line. It was third-and-2 with 1:30 left to play. The Colts had just called a timeout.

So why not run?

Even if the Steelers failed to run for the first down, they would have forced Indy to use its last time out.

But instead, Ben Roethlisberger’s misdirected pass was picked off and moments later, the Colts scored a touchdown.

I would have preferred to see the Steelers run the ball. But keep in mind, that pass play was called during a Colts’ timeout. So there was plenty of time for coach Mike Tomlin, Arians, other offensive assistants and Roethlisberger to discuss what play they wanted to call.

Tomlin had the right to veto the call. But he didn’t.

-- Not counting his two short TD runs, Moore had 13 carries in the game of 2 yards or less.

-- If I said it once, I’ve said it 1,000 times. The Steelers made a serious mistake by not finding a way to keep All-Pro guard Alan Faneca in Pittsburgh.

-- FYI: The Steelers rank 25th in the NFL with an average of 96.7 rushing yards per game. The New York Jets, the team Faneca now plays for, ranks ninth at 123.4

Last year, the Steelers ranked third in the league with 135.5 rushing yards per game while the Jets were 19th at 106.3.

I point that out because the Jets, who are 6-3 after a 4-12 disaster last year, made a serious commitment to bolster their offensive line by signing Faneca and tackle Damien Woody during free agency.

Meanwhile, the Steelers’ O-line continues to struggle.

-- One of the things I admire most about Roethlisberger is his accountability. After every win, he deflects praise by always crediting his teammates.

After a loss like Sunday’s, he never points a finger at any one.

“I lost this game,” he said. “I take it on myself. I let the guys down.”

With three interceptions, including two in Pittsburgh territory, Roethlisberger made his share of mistakes against the Colts. But he had plenty of accomplices.

-- Of all the Steelers’ games this year, Sunday’s may have been the one I enjoyed least.

Combined, the two offenses ran 131 plays. But only 45 of them were runs.

Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but I don’t care to watch teams throwing the football 86 times.
http://www.timesonline.com/articles/2008/11/11/sports/steelers/doc49190f1e118f2948058730.txt

meelanova
11-11-2008, 03:54 PM
lol I thinnk we established this here. The Steelers need to run the ball and the FO refuses to go and get any of better players in FA. True the o-line could've gotten a better push but oh well. We'll see what happens against another poor and struggling team, the Chargers

stlrtruck
11-11-2008, 04:13 PM
I've said this before...a coach can only coach...the players have to execute!!!

fansince'76
11-11-2008, 04:22 PM
The Steelers need to run the ball and the FO refuses to go and get any of better players in FA.

How's going after high-priced FAs this past offseason working for the Browns now?

19ward86
11-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Draft an O-lineman.

Preacher
11-11-2008, 04:31 PM
How's going after high-priced FAs this past offseason working for the Browns now?

Yep.

I wouldn't mind us going out and getting 1 OL. We did that last year and it worked out OK. Hartwig isn't the best, but he is playing decently.

If we can just pick up one more, and draft a good one, I think we will have a decent line next year. I really am ok with our center 3 players right now. If you notice, all our sacks are coming because of edge rushers.

klick81
11-11-2008, 04:46 PM
I've said this before...a coach can only coach...the players have to execute!!!

What about those last three or four exact same running plays? I mean, I understand we want to run, but the same exact play, with the same motion, and not even an attempt to disguise it?

That shows a serious lack of imagination by whoever was calling the plays. :noidea:

Michael Keller
11-11-2008, 04:46 PM
This is a real simple question for the off season. Is Bruce Arians one of the best offensive coordinators in the NFL? If he is , keep him. If he is not, hire one of the very best. Colbert and Tomlin must make this decision. I have my opinion .

fansince'76
11-11-2008, 04:47 PM
What about those last three or four exact same running plays? I mean, I understand we want to run, but the same exact play, with the same motion, and not even an attempt to disguise it?

That shows a serious lack of imagination by whoever was calling the plays. :noidea:

We should be able to blow a team that allows 4+ yards per rush off the ball enough to ram it down their throats from a yard out regardless.

klick81
11-11-2008, 05:07 PM
We should be able to blow a team that allows 4+ yards per rush off the ball enough to ram it down their throats from a yard out regardless.

Yes, that's true. But a different running play would have helped achieve that goal. Not the same exact play.

Dino 6 Rings
11-11-2008, 05:45 PM
How about a Little More I formation and not the single set bunch left running plays.

That would be sweet.

Or maybe, just maybe, how about a sneaking I formation hand off to the FULLBACK play call that everyone else in the effing league runs that almost ALWAYS gets 3-4 yards at a critical time.

Or maybe a toss, imagine that, a Toss play to the outside. That would be swell.

Or a counter, jessssueseffingchrist on a cracker do we even know what a fcking counter run play looks like.

No...Sorry...But I'm starting to turn on the OC. I've tried to defend him, but I'm bored with his style and would rather Punch People In the Face with running plays then give up sacks and throw interceptions on 3rd and 2.

Seriously. I'm mad at the guy.

Prove me wrong. Hang 40 on the Chargers.

Texasteel
11-11-2008, 05:49 PM
Arians did not throw the 2 ints, Ben did, and I thought they were 2 of the uglies throws I've seen for a while.
I still think if Ben doesn't try to make those throws, we win the game.

Dino 6 Rings
11-11-2008, 05:57 PM
He called the freaking plays. And Ben wasn't trying to "make" a throw on the first pick, he had read that Holmes was going to "hitch" and instead Holmes went "fly" hence the ball looked under thrown. Watch the film.

Next, I'm not against 3 running plays on 1st and goal. However, I am against the SAME 3 running plays on 1st and goal. Mix it up a little, Moore is fast, give him one run to the edge at least. Nope. Same freaking plays. Bad Calls.

The 2nd INT Ben threw watch the play, Holmes let up on the route, its was obvious. He went to stop and settle in, Ben through the Drag/Cross route and it was picked. The communiciation between the Ben and Holmes has been affected by Holmes lack of Focus. Bottom line. if you're smoking blunts at 4:30 in the afternoon, You aren't focussing on your job. Which is to catch balls for the Steelers.

He needs to redeem himself.

Also. How many drops did we have? Ward, Washington, Baker, all had drops. So sick of drops. Catch the Effing ball, especially if we throw on 1st down. 2nd and 10 is a freaking nightmare right now.

paw-n-maul-u
11-11-2008, 06:40 PM
I just feel like the steelers are going to make a big splash this year in FA. It is obvious that max starks and marvel smith are GONE. GONE GONE GONE.

Simmons probably stays, as well as kemo. Hartwig could be gone (although i don't think so. and colon will probably stay also. However, any of the above mentioned players could be replaced with a big splash in FA. Havent you felt already that since tomlin has been here that there have been signifigant FA acquisitions with bigger names that is not the norm? I mean mahan and hartwig, davenport, moore, now bryant.

not big moves ... big bigger than recent history and much more frequent.

I just feel like their will be a real big move in FA by the steelers and that guy will be depended on to reestablish steelers football.

I mean the way bruce arians runs the offense it is more like a zone blocking scheme needed. but we have power run offensive linemen (supposedly), with a small shifty running back. The philosophies and personal is all wrong on every three phases.

A big FA splash along the interior and a first round tackle to anchor the line. we'd be set, or atleast substantially better. the cap moves up and no more smith and starks contract is a lottttttttt of money

PalmerSteel
11-11-2008, 06:54 PM
like someone else said though, if the plays arent being executed like they should be, then it wouldnt matter if you had vince lombardi coaching them.
2 very noticable problems going on:
1 - ben holds on to the ball too long at times.
2 - line blocking is not nearly as good as it it expected to be.
i know hindsight is always 20/20, but i can guarentee you if the coaching staff would have known the blockign would have been like it has been so far, we would not have sweed or mendy, or both, on our team. we would have drafted offensive lineman, no matter who was available.

MillerMania83
11-11-2008, 07:11 PM
He called the freaking plays. And Ben wasn't trying to "make" a throw on the first pick, he had read that Holmes was going to "hitch" and instead Holmes went "fly" hence the ball looked under thrown. Watch the film.

Next, I'm not against 3 running plays on 1st and goal. However, I am against the SAME 3 running plays on 1st and goal. Mix it up a little, Moore is fast, give him one run to the edge at least. Nope. Same freaking plays. Bad Calls.

The 2nd INT Ben threw watch the play, Holmes let up on the route, its was obvious. He went to stop and settle in, Ben through the Drag/Cross route and it was picked. The communiciation between the Ben and Holmes has been affected by Holmes lack of Focus. Bottom line. if you're smoking blunts at 4:30 in the afternoon, You aren't focussing on your job. Which is to catch balls for the Steelers.

He needs to redeem himself.

Also. How many drops did we have? Ward, Washington, Baker, all had drops. So sick of drops. Catch the Effing ball, especially if we throw on 1st down. 2nd and 10 is a freaking nightmare right now.

Man dude, I FREAKIN' TOTALLY AGREE with everything you said in that post, your right on the $$$ IMO...Oh by the way, speaking of dropped balls, don't forget what might have been the biggest dropped ball, Polamalu had a sure TD if he wouldn't have dropped that INT, nothin' but open field, which would have made it 24-7 and the game is probably over....Seems there really needs to be a little bit more attention being paid on the field, by just about EVERYONE lately, MAKE THE PLAYS.

revefsreleets
11-11-2008, 07:33 PM
Blasphemy! Arians is the anti-Christ. Ban the thread originator and any posters who contributed to this madness of not calling for the immediate firing of Arians, despite the fact that both Ben and Byron have great respect for him, he calls good games, and he was responsible for the development of Peyton Manning into an elite NFL QB!

steelpride12
11-11-2008, 07:54 PM
Ben looked good in the first and mainly second quarter and those were Arians plays and im sure you were not complaining about him then.

Of course Ben throws 3 INT's and it's Arians fault for the same plays as the first half. Last time i checked Arians didn't throw any passes and give up the turnovers. I don't blame him for anything.

The Duke
11-11-2008, 08:03 PM
3 and 2 shotgun in steelers territory and 3 straight identical runs in the goal line are at the top of my mind to blame Bruce. Other than that it was all Ben

I just feel like the steelers are going to make a big splash this year in FA.

While I do not see it happening, who would it be? There are lots of free agency linemen next season, but none really stand out, except maybe jordan gross

I see them going the way they always do, Draft. A good young lineman could really help

As long as Colon is replaced :banging:

Steelers & I
11-11-2008, 11:17 PM
Ben looked good in the first and mainly second quarter and those were Arians plays and im sure you were not complaining about him then.

Of course Ben throws 3 INT's and it's Arians fault for the same plays as the first half. Last time i checked Arians didn't throw any passes and give up the turnovers. I don't blame him for anything.


You may be right but I'll add this, if the "entire" Steelers team stunk as bad as their offense does, ranked 25th in the NFL the last time that I checked, imagine that, the Steelers being the 25th ranked TEAM in the NFL. If that were the case then I would assume that Tomlin would be concerned about being fired at the end of the season.

Dropped balls, interceptions, offensive line protection problems, Ben holds the ball too long, excuses, excuses, excuses. If Tomlin was in the last year of his contract, or if the Steelers had as little invested in him as they do Arians, then Tomlin's head would possibly roll at the end of the season if the Steelers ended up ranked the 25th overall team in the NFL, it's called accountability.

A 100 million dollar QB, Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Heath Miller, Willie Parker, Limas Sweed, DENNIS DIXON with whom the Steelers don't even use. There's just too much talent there, there are no excuses as far as I'm concerned. I say again, the Steelers "offensive system" is anemic and there's plenty of blame to go around but ultimately a coach is going to pay the price for it and I don't see Tomlin getting the boot.

MasterOfPuppets
11-11-2008, 11:48 PM
3 and 2 shotgun in steelers territory and 3 straight identical runs in the goal line are at the top of my mind to blame Bruce. Other than that it was all Ben



While I do not see it happening, who would it be? There are lots of free agency linemen next season, but none really stand out, except maybe jordan gross

I see them going the way they always do, Draft. A good young lineman could really help

As long as Colon is replaced :banging:always do ??? 2 first day picks on oline in 7 years ........and neither one of them were worth thier 1st and 3rd rd selections.

The Duke
11-12-2008, 12:32 AM
always do ??? 2 first day picks on oline in 7 years ........and neither one of them were worth thier 1st and 3rd rd selections.

was referring to FA in general

But, 2 first day picks on oline in 7 years really does suck. Who knows, maybe they strike gold with some free agent :hope:

oh, and Arians sucks :chuckle:

stlrtruck
11-12-2008, 12:37 AM
What about those last three or four exact same running plays? I mean, I understand we want to run, but the same exact play, with the same motion, and not even an attempt to disguise it?

That shows a serious lack of imagination by whoever was calling the plays. :noidea:

While I didn't appreciate the call either, if the players would have executed just 1% better Moore gets in the endzone. If Moore cuts to his left just another 2 feet, he's got a hole big enough to walk through!!!!

And yes while the play calling was just about idiotic, the players still aren't executing to the standard that I'm used to as fan.

Galax Steeler
11-12-2008, 04:30 AM
I still say that the call on third and two from our sixteen sucked with a little bit over a minute to go in the half why not try and run the ball and if you don't get it then punt that turnover was one that should not of happened but thats football.

sreilly13
11-12-2008, 05:37 AM
Personally I don't care what running formation they lined up in during the critical 4th qtr drive that resulted in the 2nd interception; as long as it was a running formation. Nor do I care if they gained a yard. It was late 4th qtr and we had the lead. Run, Run, Run. Let the clock run or make Indy use their time outs, either way would have had a better result then a pick and ensuing td. Run 3 times, even if you don't gain a yard, you punt, pin Indy on their own side of the 50 and let the defense take over.

Every fan around me at the stadium that day had the same opinion, prior to the critical pick. If we could all see that why can't Bruce or Tomlin??

Also, as much as I love Ben, if he is hurt too bad to throw more than 10 yards accurately, please put in Leftwich and rest Ben for bigger and better things down the road!

Steelers & I
11-12-2008, 06:49 AM
Blasphemy! Arians is the anti-Christ. Ban the thread originator and any posters who contributed to this madness of not calling for the immediate firing of Arians, despite the fact that both Ben and Byron have great respect for him, he calls good games, and he was responsible for the development of Peyton Manning into an elite NFL QB!


"and he was responsible for the development of Peyton Manning into an elite NFL QB!"

Lol, Man, lmao, I've yet to hear that one. In spite of how bad our coaching was, I think that all of us could build a pretty impressive resume if we would have been Peyton Manning's 1st year QB coach. LOL, you see, Archie Manning and Peyton himself are responsible for developing Peyton Manning.

If Arians gets credit for developing Peyton Manning, then he should also get credit for the demise of Ben Roethlisberger this season. In the meantime I'll take credit for developing Terry Bradshaw, we used to play catch together when we were little boys, lol.

Now there's 2 feathers in Arians cap and one in mine.

fansince'76
11-12-2008, 07:41 AM
"and he was responsible for the development of Peyton Manning into an elite NFL QB!"

Lol, Man, lmao, I've yet to hear that one. In spite of how bad our coaching was, I think that all of us could build a pretty impressive resume if we would have been Peyton Manning's 1st year QB coach. LOL, you see, Archie Manning and Peyton himself are responsible for developing Peyton Manning.

If Arians gets credit for developing Peyton Manning, then he should also get credit for the demise of Ben Roethlisberger this season. In the meantime I'll take credit for developing Terry Bradshaw, we used to play catch together when we were little boys, lol.

Now there's 2 feathers in Arians cap and one in mine.

Does that mean he also gets credit for Roethlisberger winding up 2nd in the league in passer rating and 3rd in the league while setting the franchise season record for TD passes last year?

HometownGal
11-12-2008, 08:03 AM
Does that mean he also gets credit for Roethlisberger winding up 2nd in the league in passer rating and 3rd in the league while setting the franchise season record for TD passes last year?

:applaudit::applaudit::thumbsup:

I don't hold Arians responsible for Sunday's loss. He designs the plays, the players practice these plays over and over and over again in team practices and they fail to execute them on the field. Period.

Ben also has the green light to audible if he doesn't like what he's seeing across the line.

I have no problem whatsoever with Bruce Arians. None.

lamberts-lost-tooth
11-12-2008, 09:52 AM
Blame loss on execution, not Arians
Wednesday, November 12, 2008
By Bob Smizik, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


The Pro Bowl quarterback is hurt and clearly playing at less than 100 percent. The Pro Bowl running back has missed more than half the season.

The Pro Bowl left tackle has missed the past four games. The five-year starter at right guard has missed the past four games and is out for the season. The backup and heir apparent at running back has missed the past six games and is out for the season.

Woe is the Steelers' offense, which is 26th in total yards, 27th in yards per play, 24th in passing and 24th in rushing in the NFL.

These are most un-Steelerlike numbers, and significant portions of the passionate but not always wise fan base know just how to fix the problem.

Fire offensive coordinator Bruce Arians.

Those wishing to fire Arians, and their numbers multiplied several times after the loss to Indianapolis Sunday, almost make it sound like a dismissal would be putting him out of his misery. They consider him badly overmatched when it comes to calling plays and that, they insist, not the injuries is what's wrong with the Steelers' offense.

For the record, this column does not think Arians should be fired.

Anyone who thinks they can evaluate play-calling by sitting in front of a television set or in the stands at Heinz Field is delusional. It's far more complicated than that.

For starters, there's another team on the field, a factor many of Arians' critics fail to take into consideration. Even the most brilliantly called play won't work if the execution is poor.

Beyond that, there are multiple factors fans in the stands and people in the press box are not aware of, and without that information it's difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate play-calling.

Consider the two calls that received the most criticism and were most pivotal in the 24-20 loss to the Colts:

• The decision to throw a pass on third-and-2 from their 16 with 90 seconds remaining in the first half and leading by 10.

• The failure to score on two running plays from the 1 in the fourth quarter of a tie score and settling for a field goal.

On the first, the pass was intercepted, and the Colts scored six plays later. Critics howled that the Steelers should have sat on the ball, punted and turned the game over to the defense.

Coach Mike Tomlin, after noting all plays go through him, talked about the strategy of passing late in the first half at his news conference yesterday.

"We had a new punter. We were concerned about him attempting to punt backed up in those circumstances. Even if we did execute a successful punt, we were giving Indy the short field. It was my goal and desire not to give them the football back. I did not want them to get any points.

"Had we punted the ball, it pretty much assured ... they [would have] a chance of kicking a field goal.

"We had a third-and-2 1/2 earlier in the game and we hit Santonio [Holmes] on a similar play for 23 yards."

What is wrong with that logic? What's wrong with trying a play that worked earlier? What's wrong with going on the attack instead of playing conservatively?

If the Steelers had run the ball, failed to get the first down, punted and the Colts came back to score, here's what people would have been saying:

"Arians is too conservative."

The strategy in this circumstance was unsuccessful not because it was a poor call by Arians but because Roethlisberger threw an interception.

Football is a game of execution far more than it is a game of strategy.

In the crucial fourth-quarter series, the Steelers ran the same play on consecutive downs. Both times running back Mewelde Moore was stopped.

Can you imagine the furor if Arians had called a pass play and it failed in this situation? He would have been called an idiot. Just as he would have been called a genius if the pass play worked.

Here's Tomlin on the decision to run Moore twice:

"I think if you're going to be a good football team and have the personality we desire to have offensively, in those instances you gotta be committed to and capable of running the football over people and running it into the end zone."

In other words, Arians was playing Steelers football and using the same play that had produced two touchdowns earlier.

"In the second one, Mewelde went in standing up," said Tomlin. "I saw no reason why we weren't capable of doing that again, providing we have quality execution. We executed on the play on two earlier instances and we didn't on the two later instances."

For those who say he shouldn't have run the same play consecutively, consider this: After stopping the play, the last thing the Colts would be expecting is the Steelers to try the same thing again.

The Steelers are 6-3 with a good chance of winning their next two games.

They lost their most recent game because they have an inordinate number of injuries on offense and because Roethlisberger failed to execute on two pass plays.

They did not lose because Arians called the wrong plays.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08317/927137-194.stm

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 09:58 AM
Haters hate: It's what they do, but it doesn't have to be blindly so. From the Steelers website:

Arians was instrumental in the development of Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning, while serving as the Colts’ quarterback coach for three years (1998-2000). Under Arians’ tutelage, Manning totaled 4,413 yards and 33 touchdowns in 2000 to break his own club season record. His 33 touchdown passes in 2000 established a Colts’ franchise record previously held by John Unitas

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 10:16 AM
Haters hate: It's what they do, but it doesn't have to be blindly so. From the Steelers website:

Arians was instrumental in the development of Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning, while serving as the Colts’ quarterback coach for three years (1998-2000). Under Arians’ tutelage, Manning totaled 4,413 yards and 33 touchdowns in 2000 to break his own club season record. His 33 touchdown passes in 2000 established a Colts’ franchise record previously held by John Unitas

Correct, but no matter how thin you slice it....there are always two sides.

Arians also coached Tim Couch in Cleveland, so what did he do wrong there? Some would contend that Archie Manning and a lifetime around football were more instrumental to Peyton's development, than Arians influence.

Said it before, here it is again. I believe Arians is a good offensive coach and not to blame for all of the problems. I personally am not a fan of his offensive scheme and some play calling like a bunch of misdirection that cant pick up a 3rd down and 2. Emphasize more on out-executing the defense rather than out-guessing them.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Tim Couch is easy to explain. He was a West Coast QB forced to play in a more conventional offense, and he was battered and bruised almost his entire career due to playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in history. Elway, Montana, Young or Unitas would have failed as well.

tony hipchest
11-12-2008, 10:58 AM
play calling like a bunch of misdirection that cant pick up a 3rd down and 2. Emphasize more on out-executing the defense rather than out-guessing them.this is my biggest issue with him... paralysis by analysis. sometimes instead of just playing football, he lines em up and tries to play too much "chess".

this isnt like some of the past undertalented patriot teams where belichick constantly had to cheat and outscheme the opposing coaches. we are talented enough to win straight up. joey porter touched on this when we faced the colts in the 05 playoffs.

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
11-12-2008, 11:01 AM
belichick constantly had to and outscheme the opposing coaches.

But mostly cheat :coffee:

TackleMeBen
11-12-2008, 11:13 AM
Tomlin applauded Roethlisberger for taking accountability for the defeat and hinted that the blame for the interceptions could also fall partly on intended receiver Santonio Holmes. But the coach did not completely absolve his quarterback, who has thrown more interceptions (11) than touchdowns (10) this season.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8782740/Steelers-hope-Parker-can-play;-Big-Ben-in-doubt

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Tim Couch is easy to explain. He was a West Coast QB forced to play in a more conventional offense, and he was battered and bruised almost his entire career due to playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in history. Elway, Montana, Young or Unitas would have failed as well.

Tim Couch was not a "West Coast QB". That classification is normally reserved for QB's without great arm strength like Montana, Pennington, Garcia, etc. Couch had a strong arm, played in a run n' shoot offense and some questioned his ability to read defenses. If Arians was such a guru that helped Manning, you would expect that he would be able to help Couch in that area.

Both Manning and Couch were top picks that got thrown into the fire on bad teams right away and they both had Bruce Arians to help them make the transition. My assertion is that you cant honestly praise Arians for Manning's development and ignore his hand in Couch's lack of development.

Manning was a 2nd generation QB that was a near finished product when he was drafted. Tim Couch was a guy with the physical tools that threw up some big numbers in a Run n' shoot offense......just like Tim Rattay.

Again, BA is a good coach, but I just dont agree with his offensive philosoply. He certainly shouldnt and doesnt get the credit for the development of Peyton Manning into who he is...........any more than Sam Wyche gets the credit for developing Joe Montana.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 12:47 PM
sometimes instead of just playing football, he lines em up and tries to play too much "chess".
.

Chess is too strategic as a comparison to some of BA's playcalling.

When faced with a 3rd and 2 in Washington he goes - shotgun formation, fake end around to Nate Washington and throw to Moore in the flat for no gain.

With 3rd and 4 against the Giants, he brings Ward in motion and throws a quick pass to him in the flat that fails to convert, rather than running 3 WR's into pattern and giving Ben multiple options.

Again in this last game, his 3rd and 2 pass at the end of the half creates a 7 point turnaround. I would rather see a good old fashioned handoff, or at least a 4 WR set and draw to the RB......just like Verron Haynes used to convert all the time and what the Pats do with Kevin Faulk repeatedly.

Watch some old Cleveland Browns games from around 2004 and you will see Arians playcalling looks more like cheap parlour tricks instead of chess. Its a man's game and he should let them line up and play it more.

Dino 6 Rings
11-12-2008, 12:48 PM
I Blame The ENTIRE OFFENSE for its poor results in our 3 losses and even a couple wins.

From Center to Wide Reciever. From Left Tackle to QB, from RG to RB. They are all, 100% to blame. From Receiver Coach to Offensive Coordinator. Every single one of them needs slapped in the face with a dead fish and Woken Up.

They are ALL to blame. Dropped passes, sacks, lack of push on running plays, hitting the wrong holes, not blocking for an entire play, bad penalties on key drives, stupid penalties in general, mis reads by the QB and WRs, all of it.

All of them are to Blame!

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 12:50 PM
Actually, I stand corrected...I meant to say that Couch was a conventional QB forced into a West Coats system. My bad...

The sentiment remains the same...fish out of water.

And, man, I KNOW you love catching me in a slip-up...

Fire Haley
11-12-2008, 12:58 PM
"For the record, this column does not think Arians should be fired."

Smizik is a titstick.

Fire Arians.

That is all.

drizze99
11-12-2008, 01:08 PM
I have never liked Arians and never will. I hope he is fired at the end of this season. We had a great OC and his name is Wisenhunt... we need to find another Wiz.

And Arians responsible for Mannings success early on? Give me an effing break, LMAO.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 01:14 PM
He WAS Manning's QB coach for his first 3 years and Manning DID start right out of college and Manning DID choke in every big game he played in in College and Manning himself has attributed some of his pro succes to Arians but, Hell, what do facts and figures mean when in the middle of a passionate and illogical rant?

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 01:15 PM
Actually, I stand corrected...I meant to say that Couch was a conventional QB forced into a West Coats system. My bad...

The sentiment remains the same...fish out of water.

And, man, I KNOW you love catching me in a slip-up...

Not really. Slip up seems more likely (like spelling west coats :wink: ). Being misinformed that he's a west coast QB was just misinformed (which isnt like you).

I dont think "fish out of water" as much as fish trying to make fire. In hindsight, I dont think Couch had the pedigree and experience to play in any NFL system. He was a guy that had success in a situation that he wouldnt be able to replicate....kind of like Akili Smith.

The other guys you mentioned all came from backgrounds and schools where they were gonna be prepared better for the NFL.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 01:21 PM
The kid never had a chance, IMO...the Browns failed to address the offense line basically every year they were back the last couple.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 01:26 PM
He WAS Manning's QB coach for his first 3 years and Manning DID start right out of college and Manning DID choke in every big game he played in in College and Manning himself has attributed some of his pro succes to Arians but, Hell, what do facts and figures mean when in the middle of a passionate and illogical rant?

Manning was 39-6 as a starter at Tennessee. Difficult to imply that he wasnt a polished QB after winning that many games in the SEC.

I think trying to imply that Arians 3 years of coaching somehow made Manning the QB he is comes off as illogical. Like 49ers QB coach Sam Wyche said of his pupil Joe Montana....."the best way to coach him was give him the ball and get out of his way"

Again, to the point of this thread. I dont blame Arians for all the mistakes, but I still dont like his offensive philosophy.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 01:38 PM
The kid never had a chance, IMO...the Browns failed to address the offense line basically every year they were back the last couple.

I agree with that.

I'm just saying that other rookies that got thrown into the fire had bad O-lines and tough starts too. Elway 7TD, 14 INT in 11 games -1983. Manning 26TD, 28INT, Sacked 22 times in 16 games -1998.

Elway and Manning were gonna succeed because of their ability, determination and family background. Couch had a tougher slog because he wasnt that good....he just posted some good numbers in college. IMO, Arians didnt make Manning good, nor Couch a bust.

Steelers & I
11-12-2008, 03:31 PM
He WAS Manning's QB coach for his first 3 years and Manning DID start right out of college and Manning DID choke in every big game he played in in College and Manning himself has attributed some of his pro succes to Arians but, Hell, what do facts and figures mean when in the middle of a passionate and illogical rant?


"Manning himself has attributed some of his pro succes to Arians"


Can you provide a link? Link please!

Preacher
11-12-2008, 03:41 PM
Manning was 39-6 as a starter at Tennessee. Difficult to imply that he wasnt a polished QB after winning that many games in the SEC.

I think trying to imply that Arians 3 years of coaching somehow made Manning the QB he is comes off as illogical. Like 49ers QB coach Sam Wyche said of his pupil Joe Montana....."the best way to coach him was give him the ball and get out of his way"

Again, to the point of this thread. I dont blame Arians for all the mistakes, but I still dont like his offensive philosophy.

Fair assessment.

I personally like an offense that is a bit more wide open. So I like the philosophy. Its just that we haven't had the O line that can actually block.

I don't know, Fix the O line, and combine a little bit more running with the open style.

However, I will say this, it seems that 3 bunched receivers seems to be our base offense now.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 04:09 PM
Preacher, I dont know if Arians knows his philosophy any more. I think he is throwing a lot against the wall to see what works.

Here is a statement he made after Tomlin gave him the OC job.

"But I love four wideouts. I like a better running game out of four wideouts where we can utilize them on first and second down, rather than just being in a shotgun and throwing it all the time. That will be an area we want to develop."

I like that idea, but I havent seen a lot of 4 wideouts and running the ball against a spread out defense. Also,

You don't have to line up with two tight ends and two backs to run the football. Rushing yards are rushing yards."

Again, it seems like BA wanted to go 3 and 4 wide, force teams to play nickel defense and either run or pass against them. I dont mind that, but still think you have to have a "heavy" package to be able to run the ball in short yardage. Either way, all I normally see is 2 and 3 TE sets, a lot of 2WR sets and only see the 3 or 4 WR sets on 3rd down. Arians 4 wideout sets, pony backfield and "rushing yards" (24th in the NFL) are nowhere to be found.

Preacher
11-12-2008, 04:16 PM
Preacher, I dont know if Arians knows his philosophy any more. I think he is throwing a lot against the wall to see what works.

Here is a statement he made after Tomlin gave him the OC job.

"But I love four wideouts. I like a better running game out of four wideouts where we can utilize them on first and second down, rather than just being in a shotgun and throwing it all the time. That will be an area we want to develop."

I like that idea, but I havent seen a lot of 4 wideouts and running the ball against a spread out defense. Also,

You don't have to line up with two tight ends and two backs to run the football. Rushing yards are rushing yards."

Again, it seems like BA wanted to go 3 and 4 wide, force teams to play nickel defense and either run or pass against them. I dont mind that, but still think you have to have a "heavy" package to be able to run the ball in short yardage. Either way, all I normally see is 2 and 3 TE sets, a lot of 2WR sets and only see the 3 or 4 WR sets on 3rd down. Arians 4 wideout sets, pony backfield and "rushing yards" (24th in the NFL) are nowhere to be found.

I wonder if part of the problem is a compensation for that o line. 4 wides is great, but if you can't block, then there is not enough time for the play to develop.

What do you think? Are we seeing him throw stuff against the wall, or is it compensation for the horrible oline?

I gotta say primarily the latter, with a little of the former thrown in there.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 04:45 PM
I wonder if part of the problem is a compensation for that o line. 4 wides is great, but if you can't block, then there is not enough time for the play to develop.

What do you think? Are we seeing him throw stuff against the wall, or is it compensation for the horrible oline?

I gotta say primarily the latter, with a little of the former thrown in there.

What if he goes 4 wide (Ward, Holmes, Washington, Sweed) and throws quick passes?? I bet you see 5 DB's playing, which leaves only 6 in the box and lots of room for Parker or Moore to run.

I honestly dont think that Ben can make the decisions or throws to flourish in an offense like that and its probably why Arians likes it, but hasnt implemented it. Otherwise its a no brainer against teams that want to load up and blitz you.

tony hipchest
11-12-2008, 04:58 PM
Preacher, I dont know if Arians knows his philosophy any more. I think he is throwing a lot against the wall to see what works.

Here is a statement he made after Tomlin gave him the OC job.

"But I love four wideouts. I like a better running game out of four wideouts where we can utilize them on first and second down, rather than just being in a shotgun and throwing it all the time. That will be an area we want to develop."

I like that idea, but I havent seen a lot of 4 wideouts and running the ball against a spread out defense. Also,

You don't have to line up with two tight ends and two backs to run the football. Rushing yards are rushing yards."

Again, it seems like BA wanted to go 3 and 4 wide, force teams to play nickel defense and either run or pass against them. I dont mind that, but still think you have to have a "heavy" package to be able to run the ball in short yardage. Either way, all I normally see is 2 and 3 TE sets, a lot of 2WR sets and only see the 3 or 4 WR sets on 3rd down. Arians 4 wideout sets, pony backfield and "rushing yards" (24th in the NFL) are nowhere to be found.its obvious arians would love to play the patriots style offense. or the colts when they had wayne, stokely, and harrison. but he is a bit behind the curve with that philosophy. the league is catching up to this.

the key to being a coordinator is always staying 1 step ahead of the rest of the teams.

in 05 due to injuries, we sorta stumbled across a formula that works, was ahead of the rest of the league, and is now being emmulated.

the 1-2 punch of willie and jerome allowed wiz to open up the passing game in the playoffs, and when it finally faltered (in the sb) we had the running game to fall back on, as we saw jerome grind out the clock in the 4th quarter.

the next year the colts went to the sb with a 1-2 punch of addai/rhodes and the bears with jones/ benson.

last year the giants rode their thunder and ligtning to the sb (even adding d. ward to the mix).

this year the giants and titans are regarded as the 2 best teams in the league. their high profile qb's (collins WAS a high draft pick with an arm) are playing "ben ball". everybody thought the titans were crazy for drafting another back to compliment white. and here they are top of the league.

of course we cant blame arians for mendenhall getting hurt, but what was willie doing 1st game back from injury with 20 carries when he had his shoulder cracked?

especially after moore showed we could ease willie back in?

Preacher
11-12-2008, 05:32 PM
its obvious arians would love to play the patriots style offense. or the colts when they had wayne, stokely, and harrison. but he is a bit behind the curve with that philosophy. the league is catching up to this.

the key to being a coordinator is always staying 1 step ahead of the rest of the teams.

in 05 due to injuries, we sorta stumbled across a formula that works, was ahead of the rest of the league, and is now being emmulated.

the 1-2 punch of willie and jerome allowed wiz to open up the passing game in the playoffs, and when it finally faltered (in the sb) we had the running game to fall back on, as we saw jerome grind out the clock in the 4th quarter.

the next year the colts went to the sb with a 1-2 punch of addai/rhodes and the bears with jones/ benson.

last year the giants rode their thunder and ligtning to the sb (even adding d. ward to the mix).

this year the giants and titans are regarded as the 2 best teams in the league. their high profile qb's (collins WAS a high draft pick with an arm) are playing "ben ball". everybody thought the titans were crazy for drafting another back to compliment white. and here they are top of the league.

of course we cant blame arians for mendenhall getting hurt, but what was willie doing 1st game back from injury with 20 carries when he had his shoulder cracked?

especially after moore showed we could ease willie back in?

Tony,

so if I could wrap up what your saying in a few words its:

"Stay with a two back attack and work the passing game from it."

I agree for the most part. I am not sure about Willie being hurt. I thought his shoulder was fine up until the actual game. Am i wrong? I didn't remember anything about hte shoulder before that, only the knee.

I for one, am a big proponent of the 2 back attack system (no featured back, or a slightly featured back). It prolongs the legs of the backs in the game, and the legs of the back in the season.

I just wonder though, about that O line. It seems to me that we are re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic until the line is taken care of.

tony hipchest
11-12-2008, 05:47 PM
Tony,

so if I could wrap up what your saying in a few words its:

"Stay with a two back attack and work the passing game from it."

I agree for the most part. I am not sure about Willie being hurt. I thought his shoulder was fine up until the actual game. Am i wrong? I didn't remember anything about hte shoulder before that, only the knee.

.willies knee was fine enough to start vs. washington. he hurt his shoulder during the 20 carry effort in his first game back from the knee injury. what im saying is if he only carried the ball 15 times we reduce his contact by 25% and possibly reduce the odds for that injury. whose to say moore wouldnt take the same shot and suffer the same injury on his 5 carries?

we drafted mendenhall thinking he would be part of a 1-2 punch. willie came out getting all the carries in the 1st 2 games. if the load was shared, perhaps he doesnt get hurt vs. philly. if he doesnt get hurt vs. philly, perhaps mendenhall isnt starting and getting hurt vs. baltimore.

i just see 3 seperate injuries that the risk may have been reduced if we werent so hell bent on feeding the ball to a single guy.

especially with 3 really good running backs we got, its sorta like your mutual funds... you wanna spread the risk and not put all your eggs in 1 basket.

Preacher
11-12-2008, 06:21 PM
willies knee was fine enough to start vs. washington. he hurt his shoulder during the 20 carry effort in his first game back from the knee injury. what im saying is if he only carried the ball 15 times we reduce his contact by 25% and possibly reduce the odds for that injury. whose to say moore wouldnt take the same shot and suffer the same injury on his 5 carries?

we drafted mendenhall thinking he would be part of a 1-2 punch. willie came out getting all the carries in the 1st 2 games. if the load was shared, perhaps he doesnt get hurt vs. philly. if he doesnt get hurt vs. philly, perhaps mendenhall isnt starting and getting hurt vs. baltimore.

i just see 3 seperate injuries that the risk may have been reduced if we werent so hell bent on feeding the ball to a single guy.

especially with 3 really good running backs we got, its sorta like your mutual funds... you wanna spread the risk and not put all your eggs in 1 basket.


You gotta stop doing that TOny... there's not one point I can argue with! :chuckle:

Honestly, you are dead on. Like I said before, the feature back, IMO, needs to be a thing of the past.

VTsteel
11-12-2008, 06:23 PM
It sucks that we're having the same conversations right now that we did last year and all off season. For me, it has and does come down to the offensive line play. Arians is not the problem. I hate to say it but Colbert is . . .

(Feb 26th, 2008) That's cool and all . . . But if we don't end up getting at least the 5th best OT in the draft I'm going to be very dissappointed. I'm glad Mr. Colbert doesn't see any holes in the line and is willing to take that 1st round risk on the B.P.A. - But seriously, Signing Max Starks doesn't does not brighten our future. God willing one of those 5 OT's will actually be the B.P.A. somewhere in those first two rounds.

Not taking one in the 1st round is a calculated risk that I feel uneasy about.

I feel like I will probably be saying the same thing at the end of this season.

I am disappointed that we didn't spend (what ever it takes) to get a grade A left tackle. Bens blind side would be protected. He'd have more time. Teams would have to play off the line slightly more and our run game would benefit.

Not doing whatever it took to get a grade A Left tackle in the off season / draft was a HUGE mistake. $7,000,000 for Max Starks - Puh Leeease.

revefsreleets
11-12-2008, 06:54 PM
"Manning himself has attributed some of his pro succes to Arians"


Can you provide a link? Link please!
You kids kill me. I NEVER post bullshit, and back everything up.

Right out of the PG
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05328/612122-66.stm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/newsimages/golddot.gif Q: How instrumental in your development was Bruce Arians as your quarterback coach?
Manning: Very instrumental. Bruce was very instrumental. I was coming out as a rookie out of Tennessee. I was drafted here on a Saturday. We had a mini-camp the following weekend and they named me the starter right away. I spent a lot of time with Bruce that spring and summer going over the playbook and trying to be as comfortable as I can. We worked on the fundamentals. I still a lot of the same techniques today from play-action fakes to footwork that Bruce taught me my rookie year and my first three years that we were together. I remember when I was on the bus at the Pro Bowl when Butch Davis got the job in Cleveland. He called Edgerrin James, who was sitting next to me on the bus and Edgerrin handed the phone to me. [Davis asked] about Bruce Arians as a coach and I just couldn't say enough about him. He played a big part in my development as an NFL quarterback. I was sorry to see him go but I know that's part of it.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-12-2008, 09:41 PM
No doubt that Arians worked hard with Manning to get him up to speed in his rookie season and beyond.

Manning was already progressing well on his way by August of his rookie year according to this sporting news article.

Arians, meanwhile, believes Manning is totally versed in the Colts offense, and the way Manning practices testifies as much. Even on his first day of practice, Manning completed 9-of-10 attempts in a drill against a variety of coverages.

Manning has shown more patience than Leaf in this regard. Manning follows his progressions smoothly and doesn't force many balls. "I expected him to have more problems reading defenses," head coach Jim Mora says. "It's been a big surprise."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_/ai_21068717

I guess those 3 months of coaching by Arians made him a great QB.

MasterOfPuppets
11-12-2008, 09:48 PM
You kids kill me. I NEVER post bullshit, and back everythingt.
OWNED !!! :toofunny:

HometownGal
11-12-2008, 11:20 PM
I think it disturbes me more than anything that the Arians haters make a bee-line for this redundant, never-ending thread when the Steelers lose but when the Steelers win, no credit is given to him for playcalling a good game. :doh::banging:

E X E C U T I O N. Football 101.

augustashark
11-13-2008, 02:29 AM
I would think that Mr Moore had more to do with Manning then what Arians did. Posting an article from the PG where Manning says nice things about Arians is funny. Whats he going to say, Arians sucks. LOL

Preacher
11-13-2008, 03:50 AM
I think it disturbes me more than anything that the Arians haters make a bee-line for this redundant, never-ending thread when the Steelers lose but when the Steelers win, no credit is given to him for playcalling a good game. :doh::banging:

E X E C U T I O N. Football 101.

I haven't been an Arians hater myself, but I have to admit, the last game or two has had me asking some questions.

I am on the fence right now. I understand all the injuries and bad O line that needs to be fixed hasn't allowed Arians to call the type of game he wants to call. I also have to wonder if part of the problem is that we will always have things like that crop up, and we need Arians to be able to call a better game when short handed.

Then again, it seems Tomlin calls the shots on Ben playing, and that is also a question mark right now with his injuries.

So who knows. . . Except you hit the nail on the head in one area... E X E C U T I O N

Without that, who cares how good of a coordinator we have.

Steelers & I
11-13-2008, 04:16 AM
I haven't been an Arians hater myself, but I have to admit, the last game or two has had me asking some questions.

I am on the fence right now. I understand all the injuries and bad O line that needs to be fixed hasn't allowed Arians to call the type of game he wants to call. I also have to wonder if part of the problem is that we will always have things like that crop up, and we need Arians to be able to call a better game when short handed.

Then again, it seems Tomlin calls the shots on Ben playing, and that is also a question mark right now with his injuries.

So who knows. . . Except you hit the nail on the head in one area... E X E C U T I O N

Without that, who cares how good of a coordinator we have.

The fence is probably a good place to be Preacher. Although I'm not n Arians fan or supporter, I don't believe that this debate has been won by either side at this point. Simply people posting their opinions.

Steelers & I
11-13-2008, 04:20 AM
I would think that Mr Moore had more to do with Manning then what Arians did. Posting an article from the PG where Manning says nice things about Arians is funny. Whats he going to say, Arians sucks. LOL

I kind of thought the same thing shark. I suppose that I could post a hundred links that give Archie Manning, Tom Moore, and Peyton Manning himself credit for the development of Peyton but why bother.

revefsreleets
11-13-2008, 10:41 AM
If you hate Arians, there's nothing I can post that will dissuade you of that notion.

We're lucky to have him. He's one of the better OC's in the league. It really doesn't matter too much what this web community thinks of him as he's pretty highly regarded by the Rooney's, Tomlin, and Big Ben. My guess is he will probably get some HC consideration at the end of this year.

TackleMeBen
11-13-2008, 10:52 AM
what about the QB coach? shouldnt he also be thrown under the bus, so to speak? i mean he is there to help develop the teams qb(s)?

i agree that some of the playing calling has been questionable at times.. but look at it this way... we could have the OC for the lions..lol:chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-13-2008, 11:21 AM
My guess is he will probably get some HC consideration at the end of this year. If the Steelers finish strong and make a playoff run, he definately could get a look. Maybe back to Cleveland?

revefsreleets
11-13-2008, 12:35 PM
Cowher is going to Cleveland...I'm starting to feel it in my bones....

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-13-2008, 01:11 PM
Cowher to Browns would suck. Somehow I just dont think so, but I doubt that Spagnolo would want to go there (probably Rams), but you never know huh?

If Quinn finishes strong, then Grimace gets to stay another year.

Steelers & I
11-13-2008, 02:27 PM
If you hate Arians, there's nothing I can post that will dissuade you of that notion.

We're lucky to have him. He's one of the better OC's in the league. It really doesn't matter too much what this web community thinks of him as he's pretty highly regarded by the Rooney's, Tomlin, and Big Ben. My guess is he will probably get some HC consideration at the end of this year.

I seriously doubt that he'll be considered for any head coaching positions, not when you factor in the Steelers offensive ranking. I've never seen any articles indicating that Arians is highly regarded by the Rooney family, although I'm sure, when they're questioned about Arians, they've said nice things about him since he is, after all, on their payroll.

I've been to 2 or 3 Steelers sites and believe me when I say this, this forum is by far the easiest on Arians. Most sites are calling for his head and have been since last season.

Once again, Arians, head coach? I don't see it happening at this level, maybe a smaller NCAA head coaching position but there's no way that an NFL team hires him. His NFL resume; Peyton Manning's QB coach for 3 seasons, as previously stated, any one of us could have held that position and built an impressive resume for ourselves. The Cleveland Browns offensive coordinator prior to be FIRED by the man who was FIRED, Butch Davis. The Steelers WR coach before being promoted to offensive coordinator. We'll see if he's ultimately released by the Steelers, I believe that he will be but that's just my opinion.

That's not looking much like a resume for a potential NFL head coach. It's pretty pathtetic looking if you ask me.

tony hipchest
11-13-2008, 02:40 PM
kevin gilbride, cam cameron, or mike mularkey would probably get another shot before arians.

Steelers & I
11-13-2008, 02:43 PM
One more thing, just so I don't sound like a complete and narrow minded Arians basher:
I do like him better than these former-offensive coordinators for the Pittsburgh Steelers, ranked from bad to worst; Kevin Gilbride, Joe Walton, and Sherman Lewis.