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Edman
11-21-2008, 02:59 PM
Looks like Ben has gotten out of his little midseason funk and is looking like his early season form. He played well last week too. The practice is working. He's standing in the pocket and doesn't look skittish and indecisive.

Where's Makaveli and all the Ben haters telling us how much he sucks and not worth the 100 million dollars?

steelreserve
11-21-2008, 03:04 PM
Well, he finally got his head straight and started making better decisions. He looks 100 percent better. If he keeps playing this way and winning games, he's obviously worth everything we're paying him.

Steelcitygal87
11-21-2008, 03:57 PM
I don't know why anyone would have reason/s to hate Ben. What is there to hate? He has such tremendous athletic ability. Not many qbs can throw as accurately on the run as he can. He is a tough guy to bring down which enables him to shake a lot of would be sacks. I see him progressing nicely reading defenses, recognizing schemes. Notice he is pointing out more when he gets to the line? I never remember him doing that before, reminds me of Peyton Manning. He has his moments when he doesn't make the best decisions with the ball, but that is with any qb, even the great ones who have come before him. He has improved his play over the past few weeks and that is what you want to see. He took the blame for the loss against the Colts, and since then has come out and played so much better. He took the loss upon himself and did something about it, turned around and gave us 2 very good performances. So I really am not understanding why the people who hate him feel that way.

GO STEELERS!!! :tt03::tt03:

Dawn

Makaveli
11-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Looks like Ben has gotten out of his little midseason funk and is looking like his early season form. He played well last week too. The practice is working. He's standing in the pocket and doesn't look skittish and indecisive.

Where's Makaveli and all the Ben haters telling us how much he sucks and not worth the 100 million dollars?


"He still sucks, and is not worth the 100 million dollars.":chuckle:

steelpride12
11-21-2008, 04:16 PM
Ben has come out the last two weeks and played Steeler football. He has limited the long balls and kept his plays short, simple and most important mistake free.
Ever since he has started he has been out franchise QB, but is no where close to perfect and will have bad games and you can't jump on him about that performance. There team wins, not Ben wins.

steelreserve
11-21-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't know why anyone would have reason/s to hate Ben. What is there to hate?

Because for the first half of the season, he was playing like a moron. Anyone could see he still had a lot of talent -- but oh, man! He was having at least half a dozen what-the-hell-were-you-thinking moments per game.

Getting frustrated with that, I can understand. But I'd be surprised if many people actually went so far as to write him off for good.

Makaveli
11-21-2008, 04:43 PM
Because for the first half of the season, he was playing like a moron. Anyone could see he still had a lot of talent -- but oh, man! He was having at least half a dozen what-the-hell-were-you-thinking moments per game.

Getting frustrated with that, I can understand. But I'd be surprised if many people actually went so far as to write him off for good.


I'll be absoloutely honest,...ive never truly "wrote the kid off".( Though i like coach Cowher,.. was looking forward to another player being our QB coming out of that Draft)

In truth it's the fact that he (Ben) has the most "potential" of any QB we've had since Terry, but yet he fails to maximize it,...that's what gets under my f#ckin skin.

You see,..it's one thing to just be "limited" in terms of ability and acumen for the game.( As the long list of BUMS that preceded Ben were.)

But an entirely different degree of failure,...when one "Can" perform at an elite level,...but simply won't. (Because of a disdain for "HARD WORK")

Fire Haley
11-21-2008, 04:53 PM
His brain-damage is healing nicely.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-21-2008, 05:18 PM
I'll be absoloutely honest,...ive never truly "wrote the kid off".( Though i like coach Cowher,.. was looking forward to another player being our QB coming out of that Draft)

In truth it's the fact that he (Ben) has the most "potential" of any QB we've had since Terry, but yet he fails to maximize it,...that's what gets under my f#ckin skin.


On NO!!! You were a Rivers pimp!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!

I agree that Ben has never maximized his "potential" because most of the success has come too easy for him. Still got a long career ahead of him and room to improve. I became a fan the day he was drafted.

T.Richardson
11-21-2008, 05:23 PM
Because for the first half of the season, he was playing like a moron. Anyone could see he still had a lot of talent -- but oh, man! He was having at least half a dozen what-the-hell-were-you-thinking moments per game.

Getting frustrated with that, I can understand. But I'd be surprised if many people actually went so far as to write him off for good.

It was just the two games against the Manning Brothers, 7 ints, and 1 TD against them. While the rest of the league, 10 TDs, 4 ints.

Makaveli
11-21-2008, 05:30 PM
On NO!!! You were a Rivers pimp!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!
.


Indeed Gonzo,..my Rivers pimp hand was "StrongLikeKong".:chuckle: (The kid was the "Bizness" at N.C State)

Leftoverhard
11-21-2008, 05:35 PM
I think he's worth every penny, I always have. IMHO, Ben is just really well rounded - all of his qualities add up. His problems have been injury related and because he's high-risk, high-reward, it's not unusal for him to have a few sucky games and easy for his popularity with fans to waver when he has those bad days. He's the perfect puzzle piece for a team like the one we have now. This isn't a one man show. I'm glad.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-21-2008, 05:41 PM
Indeed Gonzo,..my Rivers pimp hand was "StrongLikeKong".:chuckle: (The kid was the "Bizness" at N.C State)

And Danny Weurfell was the fishizzle at Florida....but that meant nothing at the time.

I was always down on that wonky delivery of Rivers and the lack of velocity on the deep ball because of it. No doubt that he can ball, but Rivers is a dick and I'm glad we got Ben.

I remember seeing this report on Ben's workout in college and knew he was the deal.

Ben Roethlisberger QB Roethlisberger's workout was scripted by Steve Clarkson, who is a former San Jose State QB and currently helps prepare quarterbacks for the NFL. Roethlisberger (6-4 7/8, 240) ran his 40s in 4.81 and 4.82. He had a 30-inch vertical, a 4.32 short shuttle and a 6.81 three-cone drill.

His positional drills were referred to as outstanding. They had him throw a lot of passes on the move, and threw about 80 passes total with very good accuracy. He threw to Grant Mattos, who was with the Chargers last year, along with Cal Murry, a running back at Miami, Ohio this past year and tight end Matt Brandt (no relation). They finished the workout by having him stand flat-footed on his own 40 and throwing to receivers in five-yard increments starting at the opposing 30-yard line. By the end of the drill, he was connecting to receivers in the end zone 60 yards away. One Giants personnel guy said to me, "I've seen enough," as in Roethlisberger can't get any better. Another person there said, "If Al Davis passes on him, he's making a big mistake."

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/131757-post1.html

Ricco Suavez
11-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Wow We could of had Rivers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank God for unanswered prayers.:tt02:

Dino 6 Rings
11-21-2008, 06:39 PM
Its all about Big Ben being smart with the ball and not being afraid to Run with it once in a while. The 2 scrambles he had last night were clutch, and those are the type of plays that have been missing. Feel the heat, step up, and when you notice the linebackers are not in the middle of the field, run for the first down. Basic crap that he was doing great until last season when he started to get sacked a lot in the "run and gun" style offense he was setting records with. Now its been made clear. Ben, manage the game, don't make mistaks, be smart with the ball, and dang it, Scramble!

The Duke
11-21-2008, 06:50 PM
Its all about Big Ben being smart with the ball and not being afraid to Run with it once in a while. The 2 scrambles he had last night were clutch, and those are the type of plays that have been missing. Feel the heat, step up, and when you notice the linebackers are not in the middle of the field, run for the first down. Basic crap that he was doing great until last season when he started to get sacked a lot in the "run and gun" style offense he was setting records with. Now its been made clear. Ben, manage the game, don't make mistaks, be smart with the ball, and dang it, Scramble!

I agree with what you said. Take off when you can, get he first down with your legs

BUT, I don't think it's a matter of ben being scared and more of the defense not letting ben get out of the pocket, where everyone knows he is most dangerous. He said it himself I believe. I'll try to look for the quote

But yeah, when he can he has to take off, just like last night. Most of the times it's a positive gain

jjpro11
11-21-2008, 07:28 PM
ok.. im going to catch a lot of hate here.. but it needs to be said. he made a couple of bonehead throws last night. i remember the screen pass and the pass to miller were both terrible. both probably should have been picked off. if those get picked off, who knows.. this could be like the day after the colts game all over again. i thought for the most part he played good in the colts game, however his bonehead passes were picked off.. i thought he played a good game last night, but this time his bonehead passes werent intercepted.

Makaveli
11-21-2008, 07:57 PM
And Danny Weurfell was the fishizzle at Florida....but that meant nothing at the time.

I was always down on that wonky delivery of Rivers and the lack of velocity on the deep ball because of it. No doubt that he can ball, but Rivers is a dick and I'm glad we got Ben.

I remember seeing this report on Ben's workout in college and knew he was the deal.

Ben Roethlisberger QB Roethlisberger's workout was scripted by Steve Clarkson, who is a former San Jose State QB and currently helps prepare quarterbacks for the NFL. Roethlisberger (6-4 7/8, 240) ran his 40s in 4.81 and 4.82. He had a 30-inch vertical, a 4.32 short shuttle and a 6.81 three-cone drill.

His positional drills were referred to as outstanding. They had him throw a lot of passes on the move, and threw about 80 passes total with very good accuracy. He threw to Grant Mattos, who was with the Chargers last year, along with Cal Murry, a running back at Miami, Ohio this past year and tight end Matt Brandt (no relation). They finished the workout by having him stand flat-footed on his own 40 and throwing to receivers in five-yard increments starting at the opposing 30-yard line. By the end of the drill, he was connecting to receivers in the end zone 60 yards away. One Giants personnel guy said to me, "I've seen enough," as in Roethlisberger can't get any better. Another person there said, "If Al Davis passes on him, he's making a big mistake."

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/131757-post1.html

Yea,....much was made of the "hitch" in his (Phil's) throwing motion. But he was an extremely productive, accurate, intelligent, and highly competitive leader of men whom played the position since childhood as a coach's son. (Note the still prodigious strength of my pimp hand):chuckle:

As far as Ben,..i remember the reports of his workouts at the time very well. In fact it was also said that the Giants had even told him shortly before the draft that he'd been "tapped" by them.

I guess thats what explained his surprise when he didn't go in the top ten,...even though he was invited to N.Y for this reason.

But i digress,....as the past is the past and the kid does have what it takes to be a great one in terms of physical tools. But what will determine not only his future,.. but the immediate future of this franchise will be whether or not he has what it takes "upstairs" and within his "heart".

steel striker
11-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Still with thr o line we have ben is our best fit do you really think Eli or the mouth Rivers could do any better? I say no way Ben is the man.

Makaveli
11-21-2008, 08:59 PM
Still with thr o line we have ben is our best fit do you really think Eli or the mouth Rivers could do any better? I say no way Ben is the man.


I feel you,...in terms of your opinion striker. But i think given the exact circumstances under which Ben stepped upon the field for us,...and more specifically the same roster around him,(The Unit that made the Superbowl run),...he (Philip) would have performed at the very least just well as Ben did.

In fact,...i'd go as far as to say we would have repeated and coach Cowher might very well still be our head Coach.

But,...all of that is but mere theory on my part. Fate (along with Eli Manning :chuckle:) decided that Ben was indeed the "future" of this franchise,.....whatever that might be,.........

DACEB
11-21-2008, 09:08 PM
Its all about Big Ben being smart with the ball and not being afraid to Run with it once in a while. The 2 scrambles he had last night were clutch, and those are the type of plays that have been missing. Feel the heat, step up, and when you notice the linebackers are not in the middle of the field, run for the first down. Basic crap that he was doing great until last season when he started to get sacked a lot in the "run and gun" style offense he was setting records with. Now its been made clear. Ben, manage the game, don't make mistaks, be smart with the ball, and dang it, Scramble!

I think the shoulder had alot to do with it Dino. Hopefully his being able to stay uprite this game, coupled with 10 days does his body good.

Havik
11-21-2008, 09:38 PM
I have never been a Big Ben hater. I just don't think he should play when he's injured, as he has been responsible for several losses.

NV STEELERS 723
11-21-2008, 09:49 PM
AS much as I love my wife... she has gotten on my nerves this season about Ben.. Every time he has thrown a INT ; which has been often ; she has piped in " He just don't look comfortable like he did last year"... don't think for a minute that Ben is pressing because of the money and the demands of the pressure...it would take a toll on anyone.... I'm just saying " cut the kid a break, let him go, and he will be a 95 % winning STEELERS QB... he's already in the stats w/ Marino,Elway for most wins after 48 starts... Ben is doing pretty good!

iloveben7
11-21-2008, 10:05 PM
On NO!!! You were a Rivers pimp!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!

I agree that Ben has never maximized his "potential" because most of the success has come too easy for him. Still got a long career ahead of him and room to improve. I became a fan the day he was drafted.

Me too and that day became the day I also became a Steeler fan lol :tt02:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-21-2008, 10:17 PM
Me too and that day became the day I also became a Steeler fan lol :tt02:
Great!! I was the other way around. Been a Steeler fan for 30 years and had to live thru the last of Bradshaw....then Stoudt, Malone, Woodley, Brister, O'Donnell (good times), Graham, Kordell, etc. Until Ben was drafted.

LVSteelersfan
11-21-2008, 10:41 PM
Phillip Rivers is a joke and a head case. Don't EVEN mention him in the same sentence as Ben. He can't hold Ben's jock strap.

Steeldude
11-21-2008, 11:01 PM
why is a person labeled a hater because they point out a player's weaknesses? i remember being called a hater for what i thought of KS as the starting QB for 5+ years.

so if you point out a player's strengths are you a lover?

for example, BR has one of the worst long balls in the NFL. does that mean i hate him or does it mean i am pointing out a fact? i choose the latter.

missedgehead
11-21-2008, 11:56 PM
LOL Let's see, asking the guy to play better and make better decisions with the ball makes you a "hater?" Even Coach TOMLIN told him that he had to get his butt to practice or he was not going to play, that he couldn't use his bad shoulder as an excuse not to practice, etc. I guess Coach Tomlin is a "hater." also? Yesterday's game was deceivingly good for him. What I mean is we were playing a game against a bad team...Cincinnati.....a team that everyone whupped on, except the Eagles whose QB never heard of a tie in the NFL (that is McMoron for you) and the Jaguars who the Bungles beat.....the Bungles had NO PASS RUSH. Barely got to him so he had all day. Also there were 3 balls he threw that had the Bungles defenders known how to catch AT ALL and hold on to the danged ball, should have been intercepted. Any good team would have had 3 INTs against him last night.

Asking a guy who we are paying 102 million to play better is not being a "hater." It seems to me that Ben is becoming the second coming of Brett Farve and I do not mean that in a positive manner. Farve is one of those guys that seems to be teflon Farve.....if you DARE make any sort of criticism of the guy, you are labeled a "hater." I am seeing the same with Ben. RIdiculous. It seems to me that alot of Steeler fans would rather LOSE the division or not make the playoffs or if we make the playoffs , be one and done like we did last year, as long as Ben is playing like he is or whatever. The reason the Colts are back in the playoff race is pretty much because we had them BEAT, but good ol' Ben started with the danged interceptions and we lost the game.

iloveben7
11-21-2008, 11:59 PM
Great!! I was the other way around. Been a Steeler fan for 30 years and had to live thru the last of Bradshaw....then Stoudt, Malone, Woodley, Brister, O'Donnell (good times), Graham, Kordell, etc. Until Ben was drafted.

well I guess I was always a Steeler fan because my dad's had season tickets forever and everyone in my family loved the Steelers and I guess I just never got into it. I remember watching one game earlier than 04 and it was the playoff game against the Titans when we lost and we also always watched the Superbowls, but I never really understood the game and wasn't interested in it at all. and then I saw on the new that the Steelers drafted Ben and they showed clips of him from college and high school and I was like wow this kid is amazing, so I decided to watch that season, and I've been hooked ever since. I'm not a bandwagoner, I just became a fan late, but also at the right time. I don't know what it was like back in those days, but I've heard stories from my parents and I've watched all the old Superbowl games and the history of the Steelers DVD. Now I know everything about football and sometimes I annoy the people around me, but I seriously couldn't imagine my life without the Steelers. haha everything revolves around them-I work at the Steeler Sideline store, and go to training camp every summer, and at least one game a season, and so on.

sorry this is so long and off-topic

iloveben7
11-22-2008, 12:02 AM
LOL Let's see, asking the guy to play better and make better decisions with the ball makes you a "hater?" Even Coach TOMLIN told him that he had to get his butt to practice or he was not going to play, that he couldn't use his bad shoulder as an excuse not to practice, etc. I guess Coach Tomlin is a "hater." also? Yesterday's game was deceivingly good for him. What I mean is we were playing a game against a bad team...Cincinnati.....a team that everyone whupped on, except the Eagles whose QB never heard of a tie in the NFL (that is McMoron for you) and the Jaguars who the Bungles beat.....the Bungles had NO PASS RUSH. Barely got to him so he had all day. Also there were 3 balls he threw that had the Bungles defenders known how to catch AT ALL and hold on to the danged ball, should have been intercepted. Any good team would have had 3 INTs against him last night.

Asking a guy who we are paying 102 million to play better is not being a "hater." It seems to me that Ben is becoming the second coming of Brett Farve and I do not mean that in a positive manner. Farve is one of those guys that seems to be teflon Farve.....if you DARE make any sort of criticism of the guy, you are labeled a "hater." I am seeing the same with Ben. RIdiculous. It seems to me that alot of Steeler fans would rather LOSE the division or not make the playoffs or if we make the playoffs , be one and done like we did last year, as long as Ben is playing like he is or whatever. The reason the Colts are back in the playoff race is pretty much because we had them BEAT, but good ol' Ben started with the danged interceptions and we lost the game.

I'm not calling those people haters. The haters are those that came on here and just blamed everything on Ben and saying Leftwich was a better QB and so on, you've all seen the posts. And those 3 INTs you're saying that a good team would've had last night, you never know because it's a completely different game

fansince'76
11-22-2008, 12:08 AM
What I mean is we were playing a game against a bad team...Cincinnati.....a team that everyone whupped on, except the Eagles whose QB never heard of a tie in the NFL (that is McMoron for you) and the Jaguars who the Bungles beat.....the Bungles had NO PASS RUSH.

Yeah, the Giants really "whupped" them in OT 26-23 in NJ, didn't they? :coffee:

RoethlisBURGHer
11-22-2008, 12:33 AM
The people asking Ben to play better are not haters. Pointing out something like the fact that Ben doesn't throw the prettiest long ball isn't being a hater.

The haters are the people who show up ONLY after a loss or a bad game by Ben and trash him. The ones that won't be in any thread about the defense, or Parker...but they are always lurking in the threads about BR.

The haters are the people saying that we shouldn't have resigned Ben to a long term contract, that he is not a franchise quarterback, and that he is not worth the money he was given.

iloveben7
11-22-2008, 12:50 AM
^exactly. that's what I've been saying all along

Makaveli
11-22-2008, 01:09 AM
Yeah, the Giants really "whupped" them in OT 26-23 in NJ, didn't they? :coffee:

In all fairness to Edge 76,.....it was the Bengals,........the Bengals. I think the point was a matter of "level of competition" or lack thereof. Not in terms of the final score,..but how exactly your boy (Ben) performed in light of as much. ?

fansince'76
11-22-2008, 01:15 AM
In all fairness to Edge 76,.....it was the Bengals,........the Bengals. I think the point was a matter of "level of competition" or lack thereof. Not in terms of the final score,..but how exactly your boy (Ben) performed in light of as much. ?

I was refuting her point that "everyone has 'whupped' them" by pointing out one of "her" 3 teams (the Giants) were taken to OT at home by that same team. That's not a "whupping."

Makaveli
11-22-2008, 01:19 AM
I was refuting her point that "everyone has 'whupped' them" by pointing out one of "her" 3 teams (the Giants) were taken to OT at home by that same team. That's not a "whupping."



And you know it wasn't 76. So why even entertain anything that you know is bullish if you are confident that it is,...unless for the sake of pure entertainment ?

fansince'76
11-22-2008, 01:37 AM
And you know it wasn't 76. So why even entertain anything that you know is bullish if you are confident that it is,...unless for the sake of pure entertainment ?

Maybe because I have a problem with folks that pretend to be a fan of this team yet denigrates fairly convincing wins against the lowly Bengals (yep, that includes the first win against them this season too (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=457714#post457714)), when one of the same folk's other bandwagon teams had a FAR less impressive effort in a home win against the same lowly Bengals, and yet defends that far-from-impressive win due simply to the fact that the mighty Kaptain Kornhole was behind center for the Bengals in that game, I guess.

Makaveli
11-22-2008, 01:48 AM
Maybe because I have a problem with folks that pretend to be a fan of this team yet denigrates fairly convincing wins against the lowly Bengals (yep, that includes the first win against them this season too (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=457714#post457714)), when one of the same folk's other bandwagon teams had a FAR less impressive effort in a home win against the same lowly Bengals, and yet defends that far-from-impressive win due simply to the fact that the mighty Kaptain Kornhole was behind center for the Bengals in that game, I guess.

"Nuff said" 76.:helmet:

Steely McSmash
11-22-2008, 02:17 AM
Regarding the orginal topic....

I t was great to see Ben scramble again. When he ran for the first down, I thought he was going to stop in the pocket and get sacked again. Glad to see he's back to form on that.

He very well could have had 2 INTs in this game.

Regarding the dinks and dunks, I think BA and Ben are taking what the defence lets them when they're playing dime defence. It's the intelligent way to pass in the circumstance.

In the past Ben's tried to carry this team more than he needs to in my opinion. He carried the team last year in many of the wins --this year the D is so lights-out that it's not necessary. Maybe he's over that and maybe he's not -- hard to tell in one week.

How many times have we heard him accept blame for the loss in the post game interview? 6 or 7 maybe including the playoffs twice? How many times has he carried the team? maybe 8- 10 times including the playoff run to the SB?

Steelcitygal87
11-22-2008, 07:24 AM
ok.. im going to catch a lot of hate here.. but it needs to be said. he made a couple of bonehead throws last night. i remember the screen pass and the pass to miller were both terrible. both probably should have been picked off. if those get picked off, who knows.. this could be like the day after the colts game all over again. i thought for the most part he played good in the colts game, however his bonehead passes were picked off.. i thought he played a good game last night, but this time his bonehead passes werent intercepted.

You won't catch any hate from me, because what you are saying is exactly right. There were 2 passes that SHOULD have been picked off, if they had who knows how the game might have turned at that point. For the most part I think he did very well, but in those two instances he did catch some lucky breaks. Hopefully we won't see anymore of those what-the-heck-was-he-thinking type throws, that are just heartbreaking and so frustrating:banging:/ .

I loved the fact that he took off and ran those two times! I want to see him do more of that when he has the opportunity. On one he got us a first down and on the other a td. He had gotten away from that lately which is a shame because that is an added weapon to have....the threat of him getting out of the pocket and taking off. Gives the other team something to keep in mind. He is such a big guy to try and get to the ground. He made a nice little move( cut to the inside) on that one defender( can't think of his name) on about the 3 yard line as he was going in for the td.

GO STEELERS!!! :tt03::tt03:

steel striker
11-22-2008, 07:50 AM
You know there is no doubt that Ben got away with a few balls that could have been picked. Just like in the game with the colts we should have had three picks or more on Manning so close but no cigar. The bottom line is we are 8-3 and it is time to move on to get ready for the cheaters,
Ben is getting better and, the oline is improving some so, let's see what we look like next sunday against the cheaters. Sure we could be 9-1 but, I'll take 8-3 and at the top of the afc north and, Ben and the rest steelers know they have to play better on the offense side of the ball. I'm not looking for perfect passer ratings i just want the win.

stillers4me
11-22-2008, 08:17 AM
Ben was cool, calm and collected, and not trying to force something to happen. (and he's pretty good at that most times, too)

He's not "getting better". He is what he is. (you take the good with the bad. In that respect he's "Favrelike") He's already there, the pieces just need to be in the right place for him to shine.

In my book, he's a keeper.

LambertIsGod58
11-23-2008, 07:09 AM
Looks like Ben has gotten out of his little midseason funk and is looking like his early season form. He played well last week too. The practice is working. He's standing in the pocket and doesn't look skittish and indecisive.

Where's Makaveli and all the Ben haters telling us how much he sucks and not worth the 100 million dollars?


I wouldn't say that Ben sucks...but I've been on record saying that he is not worth the $100 million. And I don't come out after every loss to make that comment. I've gone round and round with fellow Steeler fans on this site about it. Frankly, I'm tired of the arguement considering my stance has not changed. And it bothers me that some would call me a "hater" or refer to me as an untrue fan. And I read another post in here comparing Ben to Favre....PLEASE? Favre was consistently great for so many years. I don't believe Ben can be considered "Favrelike" now or after his career is over.

Phade
11-24-2008, 08:08 PM
i think with 2 more wins he will eclipse the most wins ever by a qb in their first 4 seasons..

overtaking.. brady/montana..

ya he sucks..

lilyoder6
11-24-2008, 08:11 PM
i think that was all he needed,, b/c during the week he and the wr's lost there timing together and that could be y ben has is spell and all of those int's...

NYC SteelersFan
11-24-2008, 10:08 PM
I wouldn't say that Ben sucks...but I've been on record saying that he is not worth the $100 million. And I don't come out after every loss to make that comment. I've gone round and round with fellow Steeler fans on this site about it. Frankly, I'm tired of the arguement considering my stance has not changed. And it bothers me that some would call me a "hater" or refer to me as an untrue fan. And I read another post in here comparing Ben to Favre....PLEASE? Favre was consistently great for so many years. I don't believe Ben can be considered "Favrelike" now or after his career is over.

In 16 seasons (not including his first and this year) he had 8 seasons of 90 or higher and has an 86 for his career. In 4 seasons (not including this year) The Berger already has 3 seasons with 90 or higher and has a 90 for his career. The Berger is at 62.9 for his career and Favre is at 61.7. And I won't even mention post season stats for the 2. Let's see if The Berger "compares" to the Ol' Mighty Favre in 12 years If our O-line doesn't cause his death before then. If not for a miserable o-line he would be going for his 4th 90 or higher passer rating season in 5 career seasons. Even as horrific as the o-line has been he still has managed to have a respectable 80 passer rating for the season up till now. Give the Berger the o-lines that protected Favre tooth and nail all those years and see what happens. I'll go on the record as saying he is definitely no Favre cause he will be much more consistent than that overrated whiny punk ever was. And he won't murder his team in the playoffs every time they get there.

iloveben7
11-24-2008, 10:18 PM
i think with 2 more wins he will eclipse the most wins ever by a qb in their first 4 seasons..

overtaking.. brady/montana..

ya he sucks..

it will be 5 seasons and he'll also be passing Dan Marino

iloveben7
11-24-2008, 10:19 PM
In 16 seasons (not including his first and this year) he had 8 seasons of 90 or higher and has an 86 for his career. In 4 seasons (not including this year) The Berger already has 3 seasons with 90 or higher and has a 90 for his career. The Berger is at 62.9 for his career and Favre is at 61.7. And I won't even mention post season stats for the 2. Let's see if The Berger "compares" to the Ol' Mighty Favre in 12 years If our O-line doesn't cause his death before then. If not for a miserable o-line he would be going for his 4th 90 or higher passer rating season in 5 career seasons. Even as horrific as the o-line has been he still has managed to have a respectable 80 passer rating for the season up till now. Give the Berger the o-lines that protected Favre tooth and nail all those years and see what happens. I'll go on the record as saying he is definitely no Favre cause he will be much more consistent than that overrated whiny punk ever was. And he won't murder his team in the playoffs every time they get there.

Great post. And a lot of people are comparing Ben to Favre and I'm like no, he'll be way better.

Steelman16
11-24-2008, 11:47 PM
I don't think Ben will be 100% appreciated until after he's retired.

Then we'll see how good of a player he was.

iloveben7
11-25-2008, 12:16 AM
^i don't think he'll ever be appreciated by everyone, which is a shame

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-25-2008, 12:25 AM
^i don't think he'll ever be appreciated by everyone, which is a shame

This is an unfortunate statement on a site where many posters hack the likes of Tom Brady, John Elway, Jim Kelly and other great QB's ........that were not Steelers.

HometownGal
11-25-2008, 12:31 AM
I don't think Ben will be 100% appreciated until after he's retired.

Then we'll see how good of a player he was.

:applaudit::hatsoff::applaudit:

Steelers fans are notoriously very hard on their QB's which sickens me. There is nothing at all wrong with constructive criticism, as that is what fans do, but it's the destructive criticism that frosts my ass. Even the creme de la creme HOF QB's had bad games and seasons - no one is going to be perfect game in and game out.

As long as Ben's positive contributions to this team far outweigh his negatives - which imho they do hands down - he will get cut slack for a not so stellar game here and there and because he's the QB of the team I love, he will always have my support.

HometownGal
11-25-2008, 12:37 AM
This is an unfortunate statement on a site where many posters hack the likes of Tom Brady, John Elway, Jim Kelly and other great QB's ........that were not Steelers.

Who is cappin' on my Jimmy, huh? :wink02: Jim Kelly is my all-time favorite non-Steelers player. I know it's kind of blasphemous, but I still sport his jersey now and then in the offseason. He may not have won a Super Bowl, but he was a phenomenal QB, a total teamer, a true legend and one of the most gentlemanly players to ever play the game. :thumbsup:

GutterflowerSteel
11-25-2008, 07:12 AM
Kudos to Big Ben - from Peter King:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/11/23/Week12/index.html

It's a quarterback weekend. Roethlisberger leads, Favre slays, Cassel levitates, McNabb stews. The stories as I saw them, going back to my trip Thursday night to see the Steelers and Bengals at Heinz Field:

PITTSBURGH -- Ben Roethlisberger, leader. It's not a role he's always had with the Steelers; the thing you've heard over the years is the veterans on the team were looking for Big Ben to be more of an active lead-by-example guy. That's something he's morphed into now, naturally, and it bodes very, very well for the Steelers.

One by one, as the offensive linemen left the locker room after the Steelers dumped the Bengals 27-10 on a pre-winter night, Roethlisberger said to them: "Ten o'clock tomorrow. Don't be late.'' One of the linemen said he didn't know if he'd be up on time and wondered if Ben could give him a wakeup call, to which Roethlisberger told him to be on time and he'd see him there.

"Where you going?'' I asked.

"Taking the linemen to Chicago,'' he said. "It's Justin's birthday [center Justin Hartwig], and one of our linemen is from there, and he said we'd have a great time. So we're going. It'll be fun. Be a chance to hang out with the guys on a couple of days off.''

Roethlisberger is growing into a hard-shelled guy who can play hurt and be the kind of player his teammates want to follow. Thursday's game was an interesting example of that. When Santonio Holmes was knocked out by defensive back Chris Crocker, Roethlisberger thought a couple of his teammates might try to exact revenge. He told them not to. "It wasn't a dirty hit,'' Roethlisberger said in the huddle, trying to quell the anger.

In the fourth quarter, with a 20-10 lead and 2:22 left, the smart thing was for Roethlisberger to not aggravate his early season separated shoulder by taking any risk. But there he was, scrambling for the insurance score and stretching his exposed shoulder over the goal line for the touchdown while being tackled. It's the kind of play the crowd loves, the wounded hero saying injury be damned, I'm throwing caution to the wind and playing the game I love, and playing it hard ... It's also the kind of play that, if the quarterback gets hurt, fans will harangue said quarterback for weeks for taking a needless risk.

"Heck no,'' he said after I asked if he had thought twice about exposing his shoulder to that risk. "I will never ... Casey Hampton said to me on the sidelines, 'What are you doing scoring? Why didn't you just go down at the one?' I said, 'Hamp, don't you know by now? That's my heart.' I'm a competitor. I want to get in the end zone. And I want to win. Period. I don't think about running the clock out. I don't think about saving myself. It'll take someone to bring me down. It's the competitive side. [Coach Mike Tomlin] tells me, 'Don't take a hit. Get down, slide.' You have to pick your battles. You have to know when to do it. In that situation, it's competition.''

Roethlisberger said his shoulder has given him no trouble for three-straight games. "This is three weeks -- two, three weeks in a row -- that I haven't reinjured it. As long as it keeps feeling better, and if we don't do anything major to it, it's going to keep feeling better. I'm not going to baby it. I'm OK.''

He needs to be. When the team convenes today after the mini-bye-week (Tomlin gave them three days off after the victory over Cincinnati), the Steelers will be looking at a brutal four-week stretch -- at New England, Dallas, at Baltimore, at Tennessee. Rub dirt on it, spit on it, whatever. That shoulder has the hopes of the Steelers riding on it.

***

stlrtruck
11-25-2008, 08:30 AM
You know the moment he has a bad game they'll be back online and throughout calling for him to be benched because he can't do this, he can't do that, and he's playing injured.

It's time to ride this horse to the promised land!!! Super Bowl #6

The_WARDen
11-25-2008, 09:43 AM
after suffering through all the garbage over the years like Brister, Graham, Tomzcak, Kordell, Stoudt...yuck, it's awesome to finally have one of the elite QBs in the league.

Does he have his warts? Yes, like trying to win the game on every throw sometimes but he's still young and developing. He'll figure out that he can take the dump off for 5 yards and live to fight another down. I think we're starting to see that now. If he adds patience to his arsenal then look out because the "prime" for a starting NFL QB is usually his late 20's/early 30's.

We will be in for a fun ride.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-25-2008, 10:46 AM
Who is cappin' on my Jimmy, huh? :wink02: Jim Kelly is my all-time favorite non-Steelers player. I know it's kind of blasphemous, but I still sport his jersey now and then in the offseason. He may not have won a Super Bowl, but he was a phenomenal QB, a total teamer, a true legend and one of the most gentlemanly players to ever play the game. :thumbsup:

That's cool. There are tons of players that I like too, despite the fact that I hated the teams they played for. Marino, Kelly, Boomer, John Randle, Harry Carson, Steve Largent.....but my all time favorite non Steeler is Dick Butkus.

X-Terminator
11-25-2008, 10:58 AM
"Heck no,'' he said after I asked if he had thought twice about exposing his shoulder to that risk. "I will never ... Casey Hampton said to me on the sidelines, 'What are you doing scoring? Why didn't you just go down at the one?' I said, 'Hamp, don't you know by now? That's my heart.' I'm a competitor. I want to get in the end zone. And I want to win. Period. I don't think about running the clock out. I don't think about saving myself. It'll take someone to bring me down. It's the competitive side. [Coach Mike Tomlin] tells me, 'Don't take a hit. Get down, slide.' You have to pick your battles. You have to know when to do it. In that situation, it's competition.''


This right here should be more than enough to get every Steelers fan behind him 100%. But of course we all know that will never happen. He's never going to do enough to satisfy many of the fans, and that's just unfortunate.

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 11:05 AM
The Berger should have got the o-line on the plane, snuck of at the last minute and let the pilot take those bums to Siberia. Maybe a couple months in a Russian prison camp would make men/o-linemen out of them and even if it didn't we would have new ones by the time they got back anyway.

LambertIsGod58
11-25-2008, 03:57 PM
In 16 seasons (not including his first and this year) he had 8 seasons of 90 or higher and has an 86 for his career. In 4 seasons (not including this year) The Berger already has 3 seasons with 90 or higher and has a 90 for his career. The Berger is at 62.9 for his career and Favre is at 61.7. And I won't even mention post season stats for the 2. Let's see if The Berger "compares" to the Ol' Mighty Favre in 12 years If our O-line doesn't cause his death before then. If not for a miserable o-line he would be going for his 4th 90 or higher passer rating season in 5 career seasons. Even as horrific as the o-line has been he still has managed to have a respectable 80 passer rating for the season up till now. Give the Berger the o-lines that protected Favre tooth and nail all those years and see what happens. I'll go on the record as saying he is definitely no Favre cause he will be much more consistent than that overrated whiny punk ever was. And he won't murder his team in the playoffs every time they get there.


So all that matter's is QB rating? Are you serious?

LambertIsGod58
11-25-2008, 04:03 PM
As I said before...when Ben can play to the level of Favre for as long as Favre has, then come talk to me. Until that time you all can ride Ben's jock all you want. I choose not too. And I think that's why I am not a Ben fan. It's because of all the "true" fans who give Ben a free pass on every damn thing he does.

The_WARDen
11-25-2008, 04:11 PM
As I said before...when Ben can play to the level of Favre for as long as Favre has, then come talk to me. Until that time you all can ride Ben's jock all you want. I choose not too. And I think that's why I am not a Ben fan. It's because of all the "true" fans who give Ben a free pass on every damn thing he does.

Wow! I feel sorry that you aren't going to enjoy the ride. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. Most INTs and Most Over-hyped QB ever.

:noidea:

LambertIsGod58
11-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Wow! I feel sorry that you aren't going to enjoy the ride. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. Most INTs and Most Over-hyped QB ever.

:noidea:


Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl. Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!! BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped. See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so.

Ricco Suavez
11-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl. Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!! BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped. See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so.

I am from Mississippi and a huge Favre fan, In fact I wanted the Steelers to draft him out of Southern Miss. But if we are going to call em like we see em then here it is. You are very hard on Ben when in fact he is so much better than Favre at this stage of their careers. Have you forgot how many post season blowups he has had. At this point of Bens career (less than five seasons) he is so much more under control than Favre was at this junction in his career. Why don't you give Ben the same leeway you evidently gave Favre and you just could be watching a legend in the making just as Favre turned out to be.

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 06:46 PM
So all that matter's is QB rating? Are you serious?

No QB rating is meaningless, your perception and memories of the 2 players are far more important. And since apparently solid stats are not relevant for you then lets just cut all the statistical crap and say it like it is. Favre is god, Favre is the best, Favre never throws the most disgusting interceptions directly into the hands of defenders, he has never single handedly ran his team out of regular season games and playoff games. That miserable pass he threw right into the hands of the Giants defender was a fluke last year, he hasn't consistently thrown those for the last 16 years, not once. He's so handsome and sweet, plus he's a good ole' boy from the south with that southern charm. And he looks like a little boy playing football, so much joy and love for the game. He just makes you want to frolick in a field of daisies.

I hear ESPN is hiring guys to start over-hyping a possible NY Superbowl starring the beloved Favre, I'll be happy to give you a letter of recommendation sir.

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 06:52 PM
Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl. Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!! BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped. See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so.

Yes, we can all see your objectivity when it comes to Favre..lol..what a joke of a statement. And the Berger over-hyped??? Where? On Steelersfever.com? Cause he certainly doesn't get a single mention on any other media outlet cause he plays for boring a$$, blue collar, non-glamour Pittsburgh unlike the other beloved pretty boys the media rants and raves about. And why don't you go ask Alex Rodriguez what his MVP's have meant to the success of his teams. 3 MVP's! What a joke. An award for most selfish player is what it is more than 75% of the time voted by the media who is as objective and unbiased as you are.

HometownGal
11-25-2008, 07:35 PM
Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. [B]Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me. Ben is human. Who would have thunk it? :noidea:

I guess you forgot about Favre's vicodin addiction during the early stages of his career with the Pack. Yes - he did enter rehab and has remained clean since which he has my kudos for being able to do. :drink: My point is that athletes, though projected as role models for kids and aspiring athletes, are HUMAN BEINGS first and foremost. They change their skibbies just like we do in the morning (hopefully) and make mistakes in life just as we do.

Ben - reckless behavior? Yes.
Favre - reckless behavior? Yes.

It appears both men have learned from the error of their human ways.

Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl.

And how many Super Bowl rings does Favre have? :scratchchin:

Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!!

The combined efforts of the TEAM, including Ben who made a valiant effort to score a TD all by himself in that game, won that title.

BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped.

I don't believe for a minute that Brett Favre is over-hyped. He is a great NFL QB and is almost a lock for HOF entry in his first nomination. He's earned that honor, imho. That being said, however, to even try to compare Ben to Favre at this stage of Ben's very young career is grossly unfair. Ben has all of the ingredients to equal Favre or surpass his achievements down the road if he can stay healthy and if the Steelers FO can give him an OL that can protect him. Look at many of the HOF QB's and present day "top tier" QB's - most of them have average or above average OL's. Ben doesn't have that luxury at this stage of his career, sadly. Not an excuse for Ben - just a fact, my dear Lambert. :wink02:

See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so

I don't believe WARDen lacks objectivity and I don't believe most of us who back Ben lack objectivity either. We don't expect Ben to be perfect game in and game out and realize that he is a cog in a large wheel known as the Pittsburgh Steelers.

For the life of me, I can't understand the comment highlighted above. What do you mean "I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached MOST TED PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS"???? You hope Ben doesn't reach or surpass those numbers? WTH???? :doh:

As far as your extremely callous remark that Ben doesn't have the "toughness to last long enough to do so" , I think Ben has more than proven his toughness, both physically and mentally. The guy has gutted it out playing through injuries that would keep many of his peers sidelined for extended periods of time. We may not always agree with Ben's decisions on the field, but he is a warrior in every sense of the word and quite honestly, there isn't a QB out there who I would want to replace him.

STEELAMANIA
11-25-2008, 08:34 PM
Ben's best game was against Denver in the 05 AFC Championship game. Ben was fun to watch in the 05 playoffs. Maybe he can regain that form and prove the haters wrong again. His play in the 05 playoffs is what got the Steelers to the Superbowl.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 08:49 PM
Ben's best game was against Denver in the 05 AFC Championship game. Ben was fun to watch in the 05 playoffs. Maybe he can regain that form and prove the haters wrong again. His play in the 05 playoffs is what got the Steelers to the Superbowl.


Uuuhh,...i was thinking it was more the play of the defense, a ball control running game, and Coach Cowher being wise enough to allow him (Ben) to throw early (surprising our opponents) and then "reeling him in" before he could "clusterfook" things with interceptions ? But hey,......"what do i know"?:chuckle:

fansince'76
11-25-2008, 08:56 PM
Our running game didn't do squat against Denver in that AFCCG. The Broncos made sure to take the running game away and force Ben to go to the air to beat them and he did. Our running game had nothing to do with us getting out of Denver where the Broncos hadn't lost that season up to that point and advancing to the SB that year. I also very vividly remember our running game almost costing us the season in Indy in the form of a very inopportune fumble by the Bus. Gee, wonder who made the game-saving tackle to preserve that victory? Sorry, but Roethlisberger's contributions during that postseason run cannot be minimized.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 09:04 PM
Our running game didn't do squat against Denver in that AFCCG. The Broncos made sure to take the running game away and force Ben to go to the air to beat them and he did. Our running game had nothing to do with us getting out of Denver where the Broncos hadn't lost that season up to that point and advancing to the SB that year. I also very vividly remember our running game almost us the season in Indy in the form of a very inopportune fumble by the Bus. Gee, wonder who made the game-saving tackle to preserve that victory? Sorry, Roethlisberger's contributions in that SB run cannot be minimized.

And when exactly did Ben throw for the scores in the title game 76 ? And what exactly was the difference between his "numbers" in the first and second half of that title game ?

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 09:13 PM
Uuuhh,...i was thinking it was more the play of the defense, a ball control running game, and Coach Cowher being wise enough to allow him (Ben) to throw early (surprising our opponents) and then "reeling him in" before he could "clusterfook" things with interceptions ? But hey,......"what do i know"?:chuckle:

Can you please post the Berger's Stats and QB rating for those playoffs, go ahead and include the Superbowl (as bad as those numbers were) and still see what totals you get so we can see how insignifacant he was in the playoff run that year. It's amazing how people can pick and choose what's significant and what's not depending on whether or not it helps back their argument. If Favre would have did what the Berger did in those playoffs, people would be screaming to change the name of the NFL postseason to "The Favre's"

fansince'76
11-25-2008, 09:14 PM
And when exactly did Ben throw for the scores in the title game 76 ? And what exactly was the difference between his "numbers" in the first and second half of that title game ?

We had a 3-TD lead at half, primarily due to his passing. Cowher always turtled up with a 10+ point lead, regardless of who was under center and regardless of circumstance. Fact remains, our running game did not get us that huge lead. And the fact remains that the Broncos keyed on the running game from the get-go forcing him to go to the air to beat them and he did.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 09:30 PM
And the fact remains that the Broncos keyed on the running game from the get-go forcing him to go to the air to beat them and he did.

This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

XxKnightxX
11-25-2008, 09:42 PM
This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

He didnt play QB like but he played to win, he got the running TD at the beginning of the game, and he threw the bomb to hines that he caught about the 2 yard line, to me those were the two crucial plays in the super bowl, thats a winner to me, even though it was a few plays.

fansince'76
11-25-2008, 09:45 PM
This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

Hey, I wholeheartedly agree that he played like crap in XL and we won that SB in spite of Ben, not because of him - I've never disputed that and I would have to be a fool to do so. I just think that we wouldn't have made it past Denver without his contributions, that's all.

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 09:45 PM
This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him

And in all honesty whether you want to hear it or not, The Steelers made it to that game because of him, not in spite of him. And i'm not even talking about the game saving tackle he made in the Colts game after the Bus almost ended everything including his own career on a horrible note.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 09:51 PM
He didnt play QB like but he played to win, he got the running TD at the beginning of the game, and he threw the bomb to hines that he caught about the 2 yard line, to me those were the two crucial plays in the super bowl, thats a winner to me, even though it was a few plays.


I'm not questioning his desire to win once he sets foot upon the field. It's the measure of his desire to truly master his craft in terms of playing his position. I understand your perspective in terms of the plays that you mention here,..but like most of his other "highlights" that many of his fans speak of,..they were "playground"..

XxKnightxX
11-25-2008, 09:57 PM
I'm not questioning his desire to win once he sets foot upon the field. It's the measure of his desire to truly master his craft in terms of playing his position. I understand your perspective in terms of the plays that you mention here,..but like most of his other "highlights" that many of his fans speak of,..they were "playground"..

I understand where youre coming from, and I do tend to agree on what you mean by mastering his craft. Ben has stated that hes not a practice guy at all so that tends to be a problem especially if youre a quaterback, and he has played like utter shit in the losses that we had, but once the redskins game came along plus the colts loss, he got a serious jolt in his ass and got straight to practice and came away with 2 great performances after that, but just bear in mind Big ben has only 4 years of playing and he has the tendency to use his athleticism more than his drop back skills therefore leading to the "playground" plays, its a give a take all the time, its like favre when he used to do that and still does, it can be the best damn improv play, or the most stupid decision not to get rid of the ball.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 10:02 PM
Hey, I wholeheartedly agree that he played like crap in XL and we won that SB in spite of Ben, not because of him - I've never disputed that and I would have to be a fool to do so. I just think that we wouldn't have made it past Denver without his contributions, that's all.

And i understand that as well 76. (his contributions) In fact in light of our "resume" in terms QB's, the kid was and remains a breath of fresh air to an extent. And i'm not minimizing his worth,....i just refuse to give him a hero's measure just yet. It's my experience that respect is not given,..but earned,....no matter to what degree.

fansince'76
11-25-2008, 10:04 PM
And i'm not minimizing his worth,....i just refuse to give him a hero's measure just yet.

And I also agree with that - he's still a work in progress IMO as well. :drink:

Ricco Suavez
11-25-2008, 10:06 PM
Wow take a team over as a rookie, lead them to a division and the playoffs. Next year play great down the stretch to make a wildcard berth, then continue great play to the Superbowl. Play a VERY subpar game, yet make enough plays to HELP your team win the Superbowl. Next year nearly dies, has surgery to remove an appendix, plays for a lame-duck coach and has his worst year so far. Next year bounces back with a pro-bowl caliber season. Finally this year, plays behind what some consider one of the worst lines in football, for an OC that some regard as feeble minded, loses his top two running backs for most of the season, yet still leads his team to an 8-3 start. Ben really sucks. Oh, just for conversations sake, who do you haters want for QB. The love child of Montana and Marino?

stillers4me
11-25-2008, 10:12 PM
The love child of Montana and Marino?

Now there's a scary thought.

Makaveli
11-25-2008, 10:17 PM
I understand where youre coming from, and I do tend to agree on what you mean by mastering his craft. Ben has stated that hes not a practice guy at all so that tends to be a problem especially if youre a quaterback, and he has played like utter shit in the losses that we had, but once the redskins game came along plus the colts loss, he got a serious jolt in his ass and got straight to practice and came away with 2 great performances after that, but just bear in mind Big ben has only 4 years of playing and he has the tendency to use his athleticism more than his drop back skills therefore leading to the "playground" plays, its a give a take all the time, its like favre when he used to do that and still does, it can be the best damn improv play, or the most stupid decision not to get rid of the ball.

Well said Knight. But for my part i don't consider Favre's style of play to be most optimum form of play for a QB. What i mean is Ali's style was very effective in terms of a heavyweight,...but that's not to say that it was "correct" .

Meaning he (Ali) could get away with it because he was born with particular gifts to do so. But for others without such unusual hand eye coordination, reflexes and freakish athleticism for that size to attempt to mimic as much,,..such a "style" would be their downfall.(to say the least)

NYC SteelersFan
11-25-2008, 10:35 PM
05' playoffs for the Berger- 58-93, 803 yards, 61.8 Cmp%, 7 Passing TD's and 2 Rushing TD's with 3INT and a 97.8 QB rating. Yes we could have easily won that year without him.

For his career, 118-189, 1547 yards, 12 Passing TD's, 2 Rushing TD's, 11 INT's, 62.4 Cmp% and an 85.1 QB rating

That's pretty damn good unless your comparing him to Montana

iloveben7
11-25-2008, 11:46 PM
Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl. Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!! BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped. See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so.

Are you serious? Ben isn't tough?? He gets knocked down at least 20 times a game and gets right back up and plays.

iloveben7
11-25-2008, 11:50 PM
And when exactly did Ben throw for the scores in the title game 76 ? And what exactly was the difference between his "numbers" in the first and second half of that title game ?

he ran for a TD

iloveben7
11-25-2008, 11:51 PM
This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

ok we ALL know that Ben's performance was the worst in Superbowl history, but who cares we still WON.

iloveben7
11-25-2008, 11:54 PM
Wow take a team over as a rookie, lead them to a division and the playoffs. Next year play great down the stretch to make a wildcard berth, then continue great play to the Superbowl. Play a VERY subpar game, yet make enough plays to HELP your team win the Superbowl. Next year nearly dies, has surgery to remove an appendix, plays for a lame-duck coach and has his worst year so far. Next year bounces back with a pro-bowl caliber season. Finally this year, plays behind what some consider one of the worst lines in football, for an OC that some regard as feeble minded, loses his top two running backs for most of the season, yet still leads his team to an 8-3 start. Ben really sucks. Oh, just for conversations sake, who do you haters want for QB. The love child of Montana and Marino?

exactly. and put any QB in Ben's shoes and I doubt they would have performed better or even the same

Steelers & I
11-26-2008, 12:15 AM
Some Steelers fans probably give Roethlisberger a little more praise than he deserves but I understand. After all, under Ben's direction, the Steelers were FINALLY able to conquer their long time nemesis, the AFC Championship game.

I've been a Steelers fan since 1975 and after the departure of Terry Bradshaw, I've seen some real stinkers under center for the Steelers. Stinkers such as Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart, who played on more talented Steelers teams, performed so poorly that they actually cost the Steelers both Super Bowl and playoff victories.

So yeah, when you look at it from that perspective, I wouldn't crticize any Steelers fan for putting Roethlisberger on a level that he's probably not deserving of.

NYC SteelersFan
11-26-2008, 03:57 AM
Some Steelers fans probably give Roethlisberger a little more praise than he deserves but I understand. After all, under Ben's direction, the Steelers were FINALLY able to conquer their long time nemesis, the AFC Championship game.

I've been a Steelers fan since 1975 and after the departure of Terry Bradshaw, I've seen some real stinkers under center for the Steelers. Stinkers such as Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart, who played on more talented Steelers teams, performed so poorly that they actually cost the Steelers both Super Bowl and playoff victories.

So yeah, when you look at it from that perspective, I wouldn't crticize any Steelers fan for putting Roethlisberger on a level that he's probably not deserving of.

Stinkers such as Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart, who played on more talented Steelers teams, performed so poorly that they actually cost the Steelers both Super Bowl and playoff victories.

This right here is why the Berger is crapped on by so many. There is an unusual expectation of play from the quarterback position from Steeler fans and most football fans in general. Many actually believe that the quarterback is the "leader", the "general". He's the one that "carries" the team to victory. The wins and losses "fall" on him in the end. It's all nonsense. People need individuals to root for, they need heroes. And most people prefer Superman over the Justice League. Captain America, Spiderman or the Punisher over X-men and Fantastic four. It's easier and more fun to root for the individual than the team. It's easier to relate and envision yourself as the individual than the team.

The truth is all quarterbacks are sitting ducks without offensive lines. They are one-dimensional targets without a runningback and they are simply worthless without wide receivers. Football really is the only true team sport and everyone needs everyone. Kordell lost to the Superbowl champion Broncos and Patriots. His best receiver was Yancy Thigpen who he had lost by the time he faced the Patriots. And The Bus started getting flat tires constantly while Kordell was quarterback, yet it was claimed that we wouldve won had it not been for him. Dan Marino never won a superbowl but Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson did. Elway never won until he had Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, a great offensive line and a pretty damn good defense all at the same time.

His stats, regular season and post season record, with the teams and surrounding players makes the Berger one of the top 5 quarterbacks in the league. Anyone who names more than 4 current quarterbacks better than the Berger is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about. In all honesty he's third best behind Brady and Manning and considering Payton is getting old and washed up, I would only take Brady over the Berger if I could choose to build a team right now starting with the quarterback position. And that's only if I knew I was going to have a great offensive line cause I know the Berger plays much better without a line than Brady does. If you could have any player in the league right now to put on the Steelers, and you chose a quarterback, we would still be 8-3, 9-2 at best. A quarterback is the last thing this team needs.

I can care less about individual players, as a matter of fact I dislike most of them. I'm a fan of the team, not individual players. I can care less if we win with the Berger, leftwich, Batch or Dixon, as long as we win. But people need to stop kidding themselves and acting as if our o-line is good, our runningback is great, our wide receivers equate to a dangerous aerial attack, our Head coach is a guru, our offensive coordinator is a play calling genious and the only problem is our quarterback f-ing everything up for everyone else.

Steelers & I
11-26-2008, 06:40 AM
This right here is why the Berger is crapped on by so many. There is an unusual expectation of play from the quarterback position from Steeler fans and most football fans in general. Many actually believe that the quarterback is the "leader", the "general". He's the one that "carries" the team to victory. The wins and losses "fall" on him in the end. It's all nonsense. People need individuals to root for, they need heroes. And most people prefer Superman over the Justice League. Captain America, Spiderman or the Punisher over X-men and Fantastic four. It's easier and more fun to root for the individual than the team. It's easier to relate and envision yourself as the individual than the team.

The truth is all quarterbacks are sitting ducks without offensive lines. They are one-dimensional targets without a runningback and they are simply worthless without wide receivers. Football really is the only true team sport and everyone needs everyone. Kordell lost to the Superbowl champion Broncos and Patriots. His best receiver was Yancy Thigpen who he had lost by the time he faced the Patriots. And The Bus started getting flat tires constantly while Kordell was quarterback, yet it was claimed that we wouldve won had it not been for him. Dan Marino never won a superbowl but Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson did. Elway never won until he had Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, a great offensive line and a pretty damn good defense all at the same time.

His stats, regular season and post season record, with the teams and surrounding players makes the Berger one of the top 5 quarterbacks in the league. Anyone who names more than 4 current quarterbacks better than the Berger is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about. In all honesty he's third best behind Brady and Manning and considering Payton is getting old and washed up, I would only take Brady over the Berger if I could choose to build a team right now starting with the quarterback position. And that's only if I knew I was going to have a great offensive line cause I know the Berger plays much better without a line than Brady does. If you could have any player in the league right now to put on the Steelers, and you chose a quarterback, we would still be 8-3, 9-2 at best. A quarterback is the last thing this team needs.

I can care less about individual players, as a matter of fact I dislike most of them. I'm a fan of the team, not individual players. I can care less if we win with the Berger, leftwich, Batch or Dixon, as long as we win. But people need to stop kidding themselves and acting as if our o-line is good, our runningback is great, our wide receivers equate to a dangerous aerial attack, our Head coach is a guru, our offensive coordinator is a play calling genious and the only problem is our quarterback f-ing everything up for everyone else.

Nice write up NYC. Just one question, seeing that you quoted me, how does my post correlate with yours?

The_WARDen
11-26-2008, 08:45 AM
Most INTs and most over-hyped QB ever? No WARDen, I think Ben already has the distinction of the latter. Ben is so great yada yada yada....So great that he could care less about his team. Worries more about looking cool and riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Open your trap when Ben wins at least ONE league MVP or I'd settle for another Superbowl. Ben may have played a part in getting us there....but he may have had the worst SB appearance of any QB ever. The defense and running game won that title. Thanks Ben!!! BTW, THREE MVP's for Favre, which no one else has ever done. Yeah, Favre is over-hyped. See, the problem with you WARDen is that like most other fans on here, you lack objectivity. I just hope that Ben doesn't reach 2 of the milestones that Favre has reached. MOST TD PASSES and MOST CAREER YARDS. But I know that isn't in question. Ben doesn't have the toughness to last long enough to do so.

Ben is not great... Greatness gets decided when they retire.

So, you are all about stats? Good for you! Favre has more TDs than Elway & Montana but I'll take the multiple championships they have over his individual stats every day & twice on Sunday! As great? as Favre is ...he still has as many rings as Ben.

I'd rather Ben aspire to be like Montana & Bradshaw and not throw away playoff games with stupid INTs like Favre does.

SteelMember
11-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Uuuhh,...i was thinking it was more the play of the defense, a ball control running game, and Coach Cowher being wise enough to allow him (Ben) to throw early (surprising our opponents) and then "reeling him in" before he could "clusterfook" things with interceptions ? But hey,......"what do i know"?:chuckle:

Seems you give credit to everyone except Ben.

lilyoder6
11-26-2008, 10:07 AM
this is getting out of control... y must we go thru this evry week.. :(

X-Terminator
11-26-2008, 10:47 AM
As bad as some here claim Ben is, Favre has had some seasons where he was a turnover machine, throwing more than 20 INTs 5 times in his career and threw 29 just 3 years ago. He has also never had a passer rating at 100 or above in his entire career, while Ben obviously has. Peyton Manning, another sure first-ballot HOF'er, threw SIX INTs against the Chargers last season, on national TV no less, and threw TWO pick-6s in a game earlier this season. Point? Even the great ones screw up every now and then. Ben put up great stats last season playing behind an OL that gave up 47 sacks, and it is amazing to me how many people who endlessly bash him conveniently forget that. No, Ben is not great. You can't a QB great after just 4 and a half seasons as the starter. But he is very good. He's PROVEN he's very good, and he's only going to get better as he enters the prime of his career. And note that this post does NOT excuse his flaws. He obviously has them, flaws that must be corrected if he is to become a great QB, because he certainly has the tools. But as I said in an earlier post, he will continue to be underappreciated by many Steelers fans and will never get the credit he deserves.

The_WARDen
11-26-2008, 10:49 AM
As bad as some here claim Ben is, Favre has had some seasons where he was a turnover machine, throwing more than 20 INTs 5 times in his career and threw 29 just 3 years ago. He has also never had a passer rating at 100 or above in his entire career, while Ben obviously has. Peyton Manning, another sure first-ballot HOF'er, threw SIX INTs against the Chargers last season, on national TV no less, and threw TWO pick-6s in a game earlier this season. Point? Even the great ones screw up every now and then. Ben put up great stats last season playing behind an OL that gave up 47 sacks, and it is amazing to me how many people who endlessly bash him conveniently forget that. No, Ben is not great. You can't a QB great after just 4 and a half seasons as the starter. But he is very good. He's PROVEN he's very good, and he's only going to get better as he enters the prime of his career. But as I said in an earlier post, he will continue to be underappreciated by many Steelers fans and will not get the credit he deserves.

You stated it better than I did. Thanks!

:tt02:

NYC SteelersFan
11-26-2008, 12:37 PM
Nice write up NYC. Just one question, seeing that you quoted me, how does my post correlate with yours?

lol Just you mentioning Kordell brought back harsh memories of us not having the greatest teams and still doing pretty damn good but Steelers fans taking it upon themselves to go out with pitchforks and torches and chase after Kordell cause they swore the QB was the only problem. (It may look like a racist scene until you see those same fans chasing after their white QB's also).

LambertIsGod58
11-26-2008, 12:54 PM
he ran for a TD

How many games has been missed? How many has Favre missed? THANK YOU!

LambertIsGod58
11-26-2008, 12:55 PM
Some Steelers fans probably give Roethlisberger a little more praise than he deserves but I understand. After all, under Ben's direction, the Steelers were FINALLY able to conquer their long time nemesis, the AFC Championship game.

I've been a Steelers fan since 1975 and after the departure of Terry Bradshaw, I've seen some real stinkers under center for the Steelers. Stinkers such as Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart, who played on more talented Steelers teams, performed so poorly that they actually cost the Steelers both Super Bowl and playoff victories.

So yeah, when you look at it from that perspective, I wouldn't crticize any Steelers fan for putting Roethlisberger on a level that he's probably not deserving of.

Now this is an objective fan.....Totally agree with this post.

LambertIsGod58
11-26-2008, 01:00 PM
Most of you can not comprehend my arguement. I never said Ben sucked. I totally agree that he's our best QB since Bradshaw. My statement was simply that he wasn't/isn't worth the $100 mil. You complain about the offensive line, but we could alot of improvements if we had cap space. Cap space from not over paying Ben. The face of this franchise has always been our defense and a ball controlling running offense. I haven't seen enough out of Ben to pay him that kind of money. After all, does anyone remember Trent Dilfer? I rest my case.

X-Terminator
11-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Most of you can not comprehend my arguement. I never said Ben sucked. I totally agree that he's our best QB since Bradshaw. My statement was simply that he wasn't/isn't worth the $100 mil. You complain about the offensive line, but we could alot of improvements if we had cap space. Cap space from not over paying Ben. The face of this franchise has always been our defense and a ball controlling running offense. I haven't seen enough out of Ben to pay him that kind of money. After all, does anyone remember Trent Dilfer? I rest my case.

At the same time, I'd rather not have to settle for guys like Dilfer or Kerry Collins while watching QBs like Ben have success with other teams and wishing we had a guy like that. We've had to do that for way, WAY too long. And you'd rather see us go back to that??

NYC SteelersFan
11-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Most of you can not comprehend my arguement. I never said Ben sucked. I totally agree that he's our best QB since Bradshaw. My statement was simply that he wasn't/isn't worth the $100 mil. You complain about the offensive line, but we could alot of improvements if we had cap space. Cap space from not over paying Ben. The face of this franchise has always been our defense and a ball controlling running offense. I haven't seen enough out of Ben to pay him that kind of money. After all, does anyone remember Trent Dilfer? I rest my case.

Who the hell is worth that much money in any sport, unfortunately that is how much these clowns make these days. "8 YEARS" at 102 million and "36 million GUARANTEED" is not that much these days for a quarterback. Plus that deal replaced the contract he already had in 04' which still had 2 years left on it. It's the hardest position to get out of the draft, even a top 10 pick doesn't insure an average quarterback while all other positions are plentiful and easily obtained. Plus it's not as if the Rooney's would have spent that money elsewhere. It was there, "hey, we're not that cheap, see??" statement and they wouldn't have spent it on anyone else but a "franchise" quarterback.

LambertIsGod58
11-26-2008, 02:04 PM
To be fair here I've obtained stats for both Favre and Ben. The stats are inclusive of Favre's first four years and this year. And all of Ben's stats since he started.

Favre: 17, 286 yds
Ben: 13,906 yds

Favre: 128 TD's 77 INT's
Ben: 95 TD's 65 INT's

Favre: 149 sacks
Ben: 178 sacks


This refutes the arguement that Ben is as good or better than Favre was at the same stage of their careers. Look at the numbers and you'll see that Favre's yards and td totals were about a season's worth better than Ben's. For the same span of time. I would also bet that Roethlisberger will never win an MVP either. Much less 3 and 3 straight.

SteelMember
11-26-2008, 02:06 PM
Most of you can not comprehend my arguement. I never said Ben sucked. I totally agree that he's our best QB since Bradshaw. My statement was simply that he wasn't/isn't worth the $100 mil. You complain about the offensive line, but we could alot of improvements if we had cap space. Cap space from not over paying Ben. The face of this franchise has always been our defense and a ball controlling running offense. I haven't seen enough out of Ben to pay him that kind of money. After all, does anyone remember Trent Dilfer? I rest my case.

I don't understand why people keep bringing the money into it. It's not like it's out of "your" pocket. After his 25 mil signing bonus, he will average @ 9mil a year for 8 years, Of which only another 11mil is guaranteed. Also. when he re-negotiated he still had time remaining on his current contract, and would have put the "team" 2.5mil over the cap. If/when the league goes to no cap, this will seem like even more of a good deal down the road.

X-Terminator
11-26-2008, 02:20 PM
To be fair here I've obtained stats for both Favre and Ben. The stats are inclusive of Favre's first four years and this year. And all of Ben's stats since he started.

Favre: 17, 286 yds
Ben: 13,906 yds

Favre: 128 TD's 77 INT's
Ben: 95 TD's 65 INT's

Favre: 149 sacks
Ben: 178 sacks


This refutes the arguement that Ben is as good or better than Favre was at the same stage of their careers. Look at the numbers and you'll see that Favre's yards and td totals were about a season's worth better than Ben's. For the same span of time. I would also bet that Roethlisberger will never win an MVP either. Much less 3 and 3 straight.

You failed to mention that Favre played in a much more pass-friendly offense than Ben has, excluding last season. Of course he would put up better offensive numbers. Favre also had Sterling Sharpe and a young Donald Driver to throw to back then, both of whom were bigger threats than anyone Ben has had except for maybe Plaxico Burress. I'm willing to bet that if you put Ben in the same offense with the same weapons, he'd put up the same numbers with possibly fewer INTs. I believe he is that good, even if you do not. No, Ben probably never will win an MVP, but much of the reason why will be because of the style of offense the Steelers traditionally play, not any lack of talent.

X-Terminator
11-26-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't understand why people keep bringing the money into it. It's not like it's out of "your" pocket. After his 25 mil signing bonus, he will average @ 9mil a year for 8 years, Of which only another 11mil is guaranteed. Also. when he re-negotiated he still had time remaining on his current contract, and would have put the "team" 2.5mil over the cap. If/when the league goes to no cap, this will seem like even more of a good deal down the road.

Technically, it is out of "his" pocket. If he buys tickets, merchandise, pays for Sunday Ticket, etc., then he is contributing to his salary. It doesn't all come out of the Rooney family's pocket.

iloveben7
11-26-2008, 03:03 PM
This right here is why the Berger is crapped on by so many. There is an unusual expectation of play from the quarterback position from Steeler fans and most football fans in general. Many actually believe that the quarterback is the "leader", the "general". He's the one that "carries" the team to victory. The wins and losses "fall" on him in the end. It's all nonsense. People need individuals to root for, they need heroes. And most people prefer Superman over the Justice League. Captain America, Spiderman or the Punisher over X-men and Fantastic four. It's easier and more fun to root for the individual than the team. It's easier to relate and envision yourself as the individual than the team.

The truth is all quarterbacks are sitting ducks without offensive lines. They are one-dimensional targets without a runningback and they are simply worthless without wide receivers. Football really is the only true team sport and everyone needs everyone. Kordell lost to the Superbowl champion Broncos and Patriots. His best receiver was Yancy Thigpen who he had lost by the time he faced the Patriots. And The Bus started getting flat tires constantly while Kordell was quarterback, yet it was claimed that we wouldve won had it not been for him. Dan Marino never won a superbowl but Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson did. Elway never won until he had Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, a great offensive line and a pretty damn good defense all at the same time.

His stats, regular season and post season record, with the teams and surrounding players makes the Berger one of the top 5 quarterbacks in the league. Anyone who names more than 4 current quarterbacks better than the Berger is either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about. In all honesty he's third best behind Brady and Manning and considering Payton is getting old and washed up, I would only take Brady over the Berger if I could choose to build a team right now starting with the quarterback position. And that's only if I knew I was going to have a great offensive line cause I know the Berger plays much better without a line than Brady does. If you could have any player in the league right now to put on the Steelers, and you chose a quarterback, we would still be 8-3, 9-2 at best. A quarterback is the last thing this team needs.

I can care less about individual players, as a matter of fact I dislike most of them. I'm a fan of the team, not individual players. I can care less if we win with the Berger, leftwich, Batch or Dixon, as long as we win. But people need to stop kidding themselves and acting as if our o-line is good, our runningback is great, our wide receivers equate to a dangerous aerial attack, our Head coach is a guru, our offensive coordinator is a play calling genious and the only problem is our quarterback f-ing everything up for everyone else.

Unlike you I do have a favorite player, but I know there's no way he does it all by himself. It's just that QB's get all the blame when they lose and a little too much credit when they win.

SteelMember
11-26-2008, 03:04 PM
Technically, it is out of "his" pocket. If he buys tickets, merchandise, pays for Sunday Ticket, etc., then he is contributing to his salary. It doesn't all come out of the Rooney family's pocket.

You mean the Steelers as a business, not just the Rooney's.

Just like saying you pay for the team, not it's individual pieces.

iloveben7
11-26-2008, 03:08 PM
How many games has BEN not been missed? How many has Favre missed? THANK YOU!

that doesn't even make any sense what you asked and it doesn't relate to my post at all.

I think you're talking about how many games Ben has missed compared to Favre. Well maybe if he had a decent o-line and how's it really his fault that he gets hurt?? Sure you can have the record for most cosecutive games in the league, but how does relate to how great a player you are. Favre has been hurt, he just starts the beginning of the game, so he can get credit. I know Favre is a great player, and I'm not ignoring that.

iloveben7
11-26-2008, 03:11 PM
To be fair here I've obtained stats for both Favre and Ben. The stats are inclusive of Favre's first four years and this year. And all of Ben's stats since he started.

Favre: 17, 286 yds
Ben: 13,906 yds

Favre: 128 TD's 77 INT's
Ben: 95 TD's 65 INT's

Favre: 149 sacks
Ben: 178 sacks


This refutes the arguement that Ben is as good or better than Favre was at the same stage of their careers. Look at the numbers and you'll see that Favre's yards and td totals were about a season's worth better than Ben's. For the same span of time. I would also bet that Roethlisberger will never win an MVP either. Much less 3 and 3 straight.

How many games did Favre win in his first 5 seasons?? I didn't see him in the top 5 on that list of most wins in your first 5 seasons that Ben will soon be topping.

SteelMember
11-26-2008, 03:12 PM
Farve is a great player, and he is just comfortable in his wranglers...

and that's exactly where tom brady would like to be, literally. :chuckle:


oops, wrong thread.

Makaveli
11-26-2008, 03:17 PM
Farve is a great player, and he is just comfortable in his wranglers...

and that's exactly where tom brady would like to be, literally. :chuckle:


oops, wrong thread.


Eeeeeewwww,......you just,.... had to go and ,....make the thread strange did'nt ya ?:chuckle:

Steelman16
11-26-2008, 03:20 PM
Farve is a great player, and he is just comfortable in his wranglers...

and that's exactly where tom brady would like to be, literally. :chuckle:


oops, wrong thread.

:chuckle:

NYC SteelersFan
11-26-2008, 03:46 PM
Unlike you I do have a favorite player, but I know there's no way he does it all by himself. It's just that QB's get all the blame when they lose and a little too much credit when they win.

Too much blame! And too much Credit! And I don't mind people who have a favorite player as long as they don't skew facts to back their favorite player like Favre lovers do.

iloveben7
11-26-2008, 03:52 PM
Too much blame! And too much Credit! And I don't mind people who have a favorite player as long as they don't skew facts to back their favorite player like Favre lovers do.

yep and it's a shame

NYC SteelersFan
11-26-2008, 04:02 PM
To be fair here I've obtained stats for both Favre and Ben. The stats are inclusive of Favre's first four years and this year. And all of Ben's stats since he started.

Favre: 17, 286 yds
Ben: 13,906 yds

Favre: 128 TD's 77 INT's
Ben: 95 TD's 65 INT's

Favre: 149 sacks
Ben: 178 sacks


This refutes the arguement that Ben is as good or better than Favre was at the same stage of their careers. Look at the numbers and you'll see that Favre's yards and td totals were about a season's worth better than Ben's. For the same span of time. I would also bet that Roethlisberger will never win an MVP either. Much less 3 and 3 straight.

This is the last time I reply to you cause you are clearly a Biased and Subjective Favre lover who will only use stats that are beneficial and refute stats that make your favorite player look bad. I put up the QB ratings for the two of them and your response was, "So only QB rating matters?"

So you come back to show yards and TD's?? As someone else mentioned, of course Favre has more yards and TD's because he was in a pass happy offense, which is why he only won a single superbowl while other more balanced teams were winning several. And he's always had deep threat receivers and an O-line built to give him all the time in the world. Favre is like Manning, 1st or 2nd and goal on the 1 yard line and he opts for a pass play to bolster his personal stats instead of calling for a run play. Or even the coaches call for the play to bolster his stats and make pass-happy fans like yourself happy, considering a majority of fans rather see an entertaining aerial offense than rushing the ball down the opponents throat or even a balanced attack.

And you really need to stop bring up MVP's. 75% of the time the award is given to the most "popular" or most selfish player in the league. Guys like Favre and Alex Rodriguez who can stat-pat till the cows come home but when it comes down to doing what's best for the team, they fold like a cheap suit in the wind.

LVSteelersfan
11-26-2008, 04:07 PM
This is my point 76. We were able to catch them unaware through the air because of as much. (Much the same with the Colts in the previous game)

And is it not interesting that the Seagulls having two weeks to prepare and playing us honestly in both senses (ground and air) pitched a veritable "shut out" against Ben and and got their turnover against him. (Ben) ? And forced him into THE worst performance by ANY Qb on a winning team in Superbowl history. In all honesty whether anyone wants to hear this or not,.....the Steelers won that game in spite of Ben, not because of him.

You think what you want. Bag on Ben all you want. Ben got us there in the 5 games prior to the playoffs and in the 3 playoff games. You obviously are not really a Steeler fan the way you bag on a future Hall of Fame Quarterback. He threw the deciding block in that Super Bowl that got the Hines Ward TD as well as the bomb to Hines that led to his TD. He was HUGELY instrumental in that Super Bowl win despite what some people choose to ignore. Despite the fact he had a poor game overall, he had some HUGE plays in that game.

steel striker
11-26-2008, 09:35 PM
To all of the Ben haters you guys complain about him but, he got us our 5th sb title. Who cares about his stats in the sb the bottom line is we won the damn game! Let me also break this to you Ben is the best qb we have had since Bradshaw incase you have forgot the list of other qb's we had to sit through and yes it was bad Stoudt, Malone, Brister, O'donnell, Grahm, Tamzak, Stewart, Maddoxx. Maybe some of you would like a trip down memory lane but, I for one do not. Ben is the best qb we have seen around here since Bradshaw and, if you can't see that you are blind!

lilyoder6
11-26-2008, 09:58 PM
u can't just at stats b/c then no shit someone in a pass happy team will have better stats than someone who is in a run happy team

markymarc
11-27-2008, 12:44 AM
How many games did Favre win in his first 5 seasons?? I didn't see him in the top 5 on that list of most wins in your first 5 seasons that Ben will soon be topping.

And that is the most important stat out of anything. Yes Favre has the yardage and TDs, but sorry that doesn't mean squat if you are not winning games.

Steelman16
11-27-2008, 12:51 AM
But his VOA! It's all about the VOA! It ain't worth nothing if the VOA ain't good. Cuz I mean, what if he gets his passing yards in chunks of 50 instead of 10?

:chuckle:

:wink02:

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-27-2008, 01:50 AM
It's just that QB's get all the blame when they lose and a little too much credit when they win.

Its not just QB's. Kickers, WR's, Linemen, etc. A lot of guys get too much blame and too much credit......it takes 11 guys at a time.

Last game Silverback took an inside move a few times to lure the LT in so the Safety could blitz from the edge and lots will just look at the boxscore and say Harrison didnt have a good game......fact is he was a force and might not have got the credit for it.

lilyoder6
11-27-2008, 10:35 AM
the only thing u can say right now that u can compare ben and favre is that ben is off 2 a better start than favre was... when ben has played as many yrs as favre has then u can start comparing w/e u like

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 11:17 AM
Phillip Rivers is a joke and a head case. Don't EVEN mention him in the same sentence as Ben. He can't hold Ben's jock strap.


Can't hold Ben's jock strap huh? That's funny.....What FACTS do you have to back that up? These stats are since 2006 after Brees left San Diego.


Yards:
Ben 8900
Rivers 9346

TD's:
Ben 61
Rivers 66

INT's:

Ben 45
Rivers 34

Sacks:

Ben 125
Rivers 65

Fumbles:

Ben 22
Rivers 11

Record:

Ben 26-17
Rivers 29-14

X-Terminator
11-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Rivers has also played behind a better OL than Ben has the last three seasons, enabling him to put up those numbers despite having fewer weapons, as evidenced by taking 60 fewer sacks. Put Ben behind that OL, and he has better numbers than Rivers and probably more wins since the Steelers have had a better D than San Diego the last 2 seasons.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-27-2008, 11:45 AM
Why limit Ben's comparitive stats to when Rivers was allowed to start?? Ben was 27-4 after his first 2 seasons in the NFL (before motorcycle accident) and had that little silver football trophy.......what was it again??....the Lombardo or something like it. :noidea:

Super Bowls .....Ben-1, Phyllis Rivers -0 ....................SCOREBOARD!!!

Rivers could hold Ben's jockstrap.......if he is into that kind of thing. :jawdrop:

ben7
11-27-2008, 02:52 PM
For good reason

iloveben7
11-27-2008, 03:14 PM
Can't hold Ben's jock strap huh? That's funny.....What FACTS do you have to back that up? These stats are since 2006 after Brees left San Diego.


Yards:
Ben 8900
Rivers 9346

TD's:
Ben 61
Rivers 66

INT's:

Ben 45
Rivers 34

Sacks:

Ben 125
Rivers 65

Fumbles:

Ben 22
Rivers 11

Record:

Ben 26-17
Rivers 29-14

those aren't the stats for Ben's first 2 seasons

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 03:53 PM
those aren't the stats for Ben's first 2 seasons

Well, let's see. How could it get more fair than to compare the last three years since they both were drafted in 2004? And Rivers only started once Brees left town. B/c it shows that Rivers has been the better QB?

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 03:55 PM
Rivers has also played behind a better OL than Ben has the last three seasons, enabling him to put up those numbers despite having fewer weapons, as evidenced by taking 60 fewer sacks. Put Ben behind that OL, and he has better numbers than Rivers and probably more wins since the Steelers have had a better D than San Diego the last 2 seasons.


excuses bore me quite frankly. The fact is the comment was made that Rivers couldn't hold Ben's jock. And the numbers prove otherwise. If people are gonna continue to make stupid comments like this, expect me to challenge them.

markymarc
11-27-2008, 04:42 PM
Well, let's see. How could it get more fair than to compare the last three years since they both were drafted in 2004? And Rivers only started once Brees left town. B/c it shows that Rivers has been the better QB?

Let's examine that a bit further. The top 3 QBs taken in the 2004 draft were Manning, Rivers and Roethlisberger. That was mighty nice of you to throw out numbers for Rivers and Ben. I do know that wins have been talked about a lot in this thread and just out of curiosity how does Ben, Eli and Phillip compare in the biggest game of the NFL season:

Ben 1-1
Eli 1-1
Phillip 0-0

Maybe someday Rivers could join them and finally get a super bowl ring.

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 04:49 PM
Let's examine that a bit further. The top 3 QBs taken in the 2004 draft were Manning, Rivers and Roethlisberger. That was mighty nice of you to throw out numbers for Rivers and Ben. I do know that wins have been talked about a lot in this thread and just out of curiosity how does Ben, Eli and Phillip compare in the biggest game of the NFL season:

Ben 1-1
Eli 1-1
Phillip 0-0

Maybe someday Rivers could join them and finally get a super bowl ring.

OK...so I guess Ben and Eli are already better than Marino? And I guess Trent Dilfer is just as good as Ben and Eli too? And it's common knowledge that Ben did ride the running game and defense for that title. He only had to manage games....not win them.

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 04:55 PM
Let's examine that a bit further. The top 3 QBs taken in the 2004 draft were Manning, Rivers and Roethlisberger. That was mighty nice of you to throw out numbers for Rivers and Ben. I do know that wins have been talked about a lot in this thread and just out of curiosity how does Ben, Eli and Phillip compare in the biggest game of the NFL season:

Ben 1-1
Eli 1-1
Phillip 0-0

Maybe someday Rivers could join them and finally get a super bowl ring.


BTW...why don't you read a little closer? That was in response to "Rivers can't carry Ben's jock strap". So why would I brink Eli into it?

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 05:05 PM
Ben 11TD's and 11 INT's.....tremendous season!!!

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 05:06 PM
Sorry....I forgot that it's all the O-line. My bad.

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Well, let's see. How could it get more fair than to compare the last three years since they both were drafted in 2004? And Rivers only started once Brees left town. B/c it shows that Rivers has been the better QB?

You could argue this all day. One side will say compare the 3 years they played, the other side will say that you should compare the first 3 seasons they started and yet another will say you cant compare either because Rivers got 2 seasons to apprentice behind Brees.....while Ben got thrown into the fire.

Bottom line is they are both good QB's and its personal taste. I never wanted Rivers and his wonky delivery and now that I see his jackass attitude....I'm happy he isnt a Steeler.

LambertIsGod58
11-27-2008, 07:06 PM
You could argue this all day. One side will say compare the 3 years they played, the other side will say that you should compare the first 3 seasons they started and yet another will say you cant compare either because Rivers got 2 seasons to apprentice behind Brees.....while Ben got thrown into the fire.

Bottom line is they are both good QB's and its personal taste. I never wanted Rivers and his wonky delivery and now that I see his jackass attitude....I'm happy he isnt a Steeler.


See, open-minded Steeler fans do exist. I can live with all the above. I don't know how many times I can say it. I don't think Ben sucks. He's just over hyped IMO. And not worth the money. Since Ben has been here, I'd say he's had one good year. That being last year. All the other years he "managed" the offense.

Edman
11-27-2008, 07:08 PM
And it's common knowledge that Ben did ride the running game and defense for that title. He only had to manage games....not win them.

Ben the Game Manager:

@CIN: 14/19 208 3 TD 0 INT
@IND: 14/24 197 2 TD 1 INT
@DEN: 21/29 275 3 TD 1 Rush TD 0 INT

The Dominant "Running game he rode to a title":

@CIN: 34 att. 144 yds 1 TD 4.2 yds a carry, stuffed 4 times for -7 yds
@IND: 42 att. 112 yds 0 TD 2.7 yds a carry, stuffed 6 times for -14 yds
These are against two of of the worst run D's in league that year by the way.
@DEN: 33 att. 90 yds 2.7 yds a carry, stuffed 5 times for -7 yards. Outgained on ground by DEN by six yards in 12 less carries.

X-Terminator
11-27-2008, 08:03 PM
excuses bore me quite frankly. The fact is the comment was made that Rivers couldn't hold Ben's jock. And the numbers prove otherwise. If people are gonna continue to make stupid comments like this, expect me to challenge them.

And I responded to your comment with a point, a point that MUST be considered whenever you are comparing Rivers and Ben. If you put Rivers behind the OL's that Ben has played behind the past 3 seasons, I can say with a degree of certainty that he would not put up the numbers that Ben has, and would probably be worse. Call it an excuse if you want, I don't really care. You may say that you don't think Ben sucks, but every post you've made says otherwise. Sorry, but that's how you come across.

markymarc
11-27-2008, 08:33 PM
OK...so I guess Ben and Eli are already better than Marino? And I guess Trent Dilfer is just as good as Ben and Eli too? And it's common knowledge that Ben did ride the running game and defense for that title. He only had to manage games....not win them.

You are hilarious. Stat wise Ben and Eli still have a long way to go compared to Marino, but hey if I have to point it out again at least they have the hardware. And that is total B.S. that Ben managed the game in the playoff run in 2005. It's his play in the post season that got us to the Super Bowl. And if you think otherwise then you are crazy. He killed the Bungles, Colts and Broncos passing the ball in route to the Super Bowl. Yes we had a good defense, but make no mistake about it Ben's play was a big reason we ended up in the Super Bowl that year. I wonder if the Bungles, Colts and Broncos feel Ben managed the game.

markymarc
11-27-2008, 08:36 PM
BTW...why don't you read a little closer? That was in response to "Rivers can't carry Ben's jock strap". So why would I brink Eli into it?

Right back at you, why would you bring in Marino or Dilfer to the discussion when responding to my post? I brought Eli into the discussion because they were the top 3 QBs drafted in 2004. There is nothing wrong with comparing those QBs. Instead of carrying Ben's jock maybe Rivers could carry his Super Bowl ring. Maybe that's a little more classy.

NYC SteelersFan
11-28-2008, 03:17 AM
See, open-minded Steeler fans do exist. I can live with all the above. I don't know how many times I can say it. I don't think Ben sucks. He's just over hyped IMO. And not worth the money. Since Ben has been here, I'd say he's had one good year. That being last year. All the other years he "managed" the offense.

I don't know how old you are but the days of golden haired Bradshaw and an aerial attack offense have been gone for quite some time. If you rather have a pass happy offense than a winning team, go root for another team. QB's who "manage" the team win games and bring home championships, I don't care how good Marino was, maybe if he would've "managed" his team one year instead of bolstering his personal stats in an unbalanced offense, then maybe he would have a superbowl ring instead of pretty career stats and a job on Inside the NFL.

And if you want all those pretty passing offensive stats, first ask for a new play book, head coach and offensive coordinator, if then you feel the Berger is not capable of running that kind of system after watching him in it for a season or two, then fine, start asking for a new QB to run your new offense.

And saying he is over-hyped or overrated is an absolute joke. Being over-hyped or overrated on a fan forum does not count. You first have to be rated or hyped in the media to even qualify for being OVERrated or OVER-hyped. The Berger is barely mentioned let alone rated or hyped. The only time the Pittsburgh Steelers QB is mentioned in the media is either during a 15 second recap of a Steelers game or during a fathead commercial.

paw-n-maul-u
11-28-2008, 03:28 AM
this is all such a retarded moot point. ben just signed a huge contract. anything that lambert is talking about is all hindsight.

EVERY QUARTER BACK HAS A FEW BAD GAMES.

donovan mcnabb dropped 250 and 4 TD's today after being basically booed the last three weeks. some fans on here are so spoiled and unappreciative of Big Ben.

QB's that I would MAYBE THINK about taking over ben ...

Drew Brees
Tom Brady
The Manning Bro's
ummmmmmm ... and honestly I don't even know about a post-knee Brady ... or an Older Peyton ... and ACTUALLY ...

If Ben had half the time to throw that any of these fools do ... I mean if you look at those QB's I just mentioned ... they all have top offensive lines in the NFL ... it is what it is.

go be a browns fan then everyone can feel really good about b*tching about something that actually needs bitching about

LambertIsGod58
11-28-2008, 06:15 AM
this is all such a retarded moot point. ben just signed a huge contract. anything that lambert is talking about is all hindsight.

EVERY QUARTER BACK HAS A FEW BAD GAMES.

donovan mcnabb dropped 250 and 4 TD's today after being basically booed the last three weeks. some fans on here are so spoiled and unappreciative of Big Ben.

QB's that I would MAYBE THINK about taking over ben ...

Drew Brees
Tom Brady
The Manning Bro's
ummmmmmm ... and honestly I don't even know about a post-knee Brady ... or an Older Peyton ... and ACTUALLY ...

If Ben had half the time to throw that any of these fools do ... I mean if you look at those QB's I just mentioned ... they all have top offensive lines in the NFL ... it is what it is.

go be a browns fan then everyone can feel really good about b*tching about something that actually needs bitching about


I guess it's not an issue of Ben holding on to the ball too long?

LambertIsGod58
11-28-2008, 06:15 AM
Right back at you, why would you bring in Marino or Dilfer to the discussion when responding to my post? I brought Eli into the discussion because they were the top 3 QBs drafted in 2004. There is nothing wrong with comparing those QBs. Instead of carrying Ben's jock maybe Rivers could carry his Super Bowl ring. Maybe that's a little more classy.



Hello? If you're gonna bring in other players to an arguement they had nothing to do with, I'll do the same.

LambertIsGod58
11-28-2008, 06:21 AM
And I responded to your comment with a point, a point that MUST be considered whenever you are comparing Rivers and Ben. If you put Rivers behind the OL's that Ben has played behind the past 3 seasons, I can say with a degree of certainty that he would not put up the numbers that Ben has, and would probably be worse. Call it an excuse if you want, I don't really care. You may say that you don't think Ben sucks, but every post you've made says otherwise. Sorry, but that's how you come across.

Please show me a post I have made stating that Ben sucks....I'd be very interested to see it. Just because I don't eat, sleep and breathe Ben Roethlisberger like the rest of you do isn't my problem. The truth is most of you fans are so caught up in your "man love" for him that you can't stand to listen to any criticism whatsoever. And maybe the reason that Ben is never mentioned on the national scene is that maybe he's just not as good as you all want to believe. Again, I'm not saying he sucks but most of you have him as good as or better than Montana and that's just simply egregious .

markymarc
11-28-2008, 01:50 PM
Hello? If you're gonna bring in other players to an arguement they had nothing to do with, I'll do the same.

I brought in players that Ben should be compared to. They were all drafted in 2004 and the top 3 QBs taken. Those are the only players Ben should be compared to in his career. Until they all retire it should be Ben vs Eli vs Phillip. Seems pretty simple to me.

Steelers & I
11-28-2008, 10:00 PM
You could argue this all day. One side will say compare the 3 years they played, the other side will say that you should compare the first 3 seasons they started and yet another will say you cant compare either because Rivers got 2 seasons to apprentice behind Brees.....while Ben got thrown into the fire.

Bottom line is they are both good QB's and its personal taste. I never wanted Rivers and his wonky delivery and now that I see his jackass attitude....I'm happy he isnt a Steeler.


I agree with your Rivers comments. Since last season, I've noticed that the dude is a freaking all around DORK!

Steelers & I
11-28-2008, 10:04 PM
I don't know how old you are but the days of golden haired Bradshaw and an aerial attack offense have been gone for quite some time. If you rather have a pass happy offense than a winning team, go root for another team. QB's who "manage" the team win games and bring home championships, I don't care how good Marino was, maybe if he would've "managed" his team one year instead of bolstering his personal stats in an unbalanced offense, then maybe he would have a superbowl ring instead of pretty career stats and a job on Inside the NFL.

And if you want all those pretty passing offensive stats, first ask for a new play book, head coach and offensive coordinator, if then you feel the Berger is not capable of running that kind of system after watching him in it for a season or two, then fine, start asking for a new QB to run your new offense.

And saying he is over-hyped or overrated is an absolute joke. Being over-hyped or overrated on a fan forum does not count. You first have to be rated or hyped in the media to even qualify for being OVERrated or OVER-hyped. The Berger is barely mentioned let alone rated or hyped. The only time the Pittsburgh Steelers QB is mentioned in the media is either during a 15 second recap of a Steelers game or during a fathead commercial.


Nah, the announcers on the Madden game talk about him quite a bit, :flap:

fansince'76
11-28-2008, 10:06 PM
I agree with your Rivers comments. Since last season, I've noticed that the dude is a freaking all around DORK!

Can't really argue with that....

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/riversface.jpg

:chuckle:

Steelers & I
11-28-2008, 10:13 PM
Please show me a post I have made stating that Ben sucks....I'd be very interested to see it. Just because I don't eat, sleep and breathe Ben Roethlisberger like the rest of you do isn't my problem. The truth is most of you fans are so caught up in your "man love" for him that you can't stand to listen to any criticism whatsoever. And maybe the reason that Ben is never mentioned on the national scene is that maybe he's just not as good as you all want to believe. Again, I'm not saying he sucks but most of you have him as good as or better than Montana and that's just simply egregious .

During the games, I find myself yelling at Roethlisberger's television image quite a bit, I've accused him of panicking under pressure and throwing interceptions in a cowardly manner.

Wih that being said, I can't name a "current NFL QB" that I would rather see under center for the Steelers. I mean seriously, is there another QB that you would rather see playing for the Steelers?

Steelers & I
11-28-2008, 10:22 PM
Can't really argue with that....

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/riversface.jpg

:chuckle:


Nice image. The best part is looking at the image and trying to determine why in the flip that this guy believes that he's capable of talking smack to opposing defenders and fans.

I saw him flapping those vagina lips in a few games last season and it appeared as though he was wolfing to a Steelers defender a few weeks ago as he was trotting down the field after a long completion, you know the play, Woodley had slipped in coverage near the line of scrimmage allowing the receiver to establish seperation. If you have the game recorded, watch Phillip "The Dork" Rivers talking smack as he trots downfield. Does he actually believe that anyone takes he and his BITCH HIPS serious?

X-Terminator
11-28-2008, 10:35 PM
Please show me a post I have made stating that Ben sucks....I'd be very interested to see it. Just because I don't eat, sleep and breathe Ben Roethlisberger like the rest of you do isn't my problem. The truth is most of you fans are so caught up in your "man love" for him that you can't stand to listen to any criticism whatsoever. And maybe the reason that Ben is never mentioned on the national scene is that maybe he's just not as good as you all want to believe. Again, I'm not saying he sucks but most of you have him as good as or better than Montana and that's just simply egregious .

Did you actually read my post? I believe I made it pretty clear that I know you have said that you don't think Ben sucks, but that is how you come across when you make post after post bashing him. And FYI, I have done plenty of criticizing of Ben on this board, especially after the Colts game. Just because I don't go on and on about how overrated he allegedly is doesn't mean that I drink the Ben Kool-Aid 24/7. I certainly do not. I just believe he is better than YOU think he is. Problem?

Preacher
11-28-2008, 11:31 PM
Please show me a post I have made stating that Ben sucks....I'd be very interested to see it. Just because I don't eat, sleep and breathe Ben Roethlisberger like the rest of you do isn't my problem. The truth is most of you fans are so caught up in your "man love" for him that you can't stand to listen to any criticism whatsoever. And maybe the reason that Ben is never mentioned on the national scene is that maybe he's just not as good as you all want to believe. Again, I'm not saying he sucks but most of you have him as good as or better than Montana and that's just simply egregious .

I don't think anyone here would come close to saying he is as good as Montana. Personally, last year I said he was behind Manning and Brady. This year, he is not (though Manning and Brady aren't that high either this year... Manning is coming back, Brady will be interesting to see after coming back from injury).

The problem is, people here seem to have no ability to seperate skill set, talent, and performance.

Ben has the talent. Period. His TALENT level seems to be top 2 or 3 of active QB's. His skill set lacks in places. He throws the ball short a number of times. He makes bad decisions at times. He also covers for problems by innovating, which is talent over skillset. His performance bounces between those two polls.

Does Ben suck? Nope. He is a VERY talented QB with a decent skill set. Therefore, I expect to see him play VERY well most of the time, with some real problems some of the time.

That is why when I hear people saying, Ben sucks... bench Ben, blah blah.. I just roll my eyes. He will have those games, and those streaks. But give it time, and he will average out to a very good QB, in a class below Montana Marino, Otto Graham, etc. The class he belongs to (if he continues to have more 2007 years then 2008 years), IMO, has Farve and Elway, Staubach and Bradshaw as the mainstays. Let's see if Ben can stay at the level by combinign his high talent with some good skill set.

siss
11-29-2008, 08:50 PM
Im actually hoping that Ben is a class all his own. Forevery bonehead play that makes you wonder how we could possible have drafted this guy, he makes a play that reminds you why you love him and makes the Rooneys look like genious for getting him at 11 in the draft.

Steelers & I
11-30-2008, 10:02 AM
Uuuhh,...i was thinking it was more the play of the defense, a ball control running game, and Coach Cowher being wise enough to allow him (Ben) to throw early (surprising our opponents) and then "reeling him in" before he could "clusterfook" things with interceptions ? But hey,......"what do i know"?:chuckle:

Super Bowl XL was played in Indianapolis, that's right Indianapolis. The Colts were BY FAR, the best team that the Steelers were going to face during that entire playoff run, so, with that being said:

There's NO WAY that you're going to convince ANYONE on this board that Ben Roethlisberger didn't perform at All-Pro level in that game. Keep this in mind, WE WATCHED THE GAME MAN! The Steelers passed early and often in that game and #7 was PRECISE! In my opinion, Ben played the best game of his career versus the Colts.

I don't want to hear any nonsense about the Steelers catching the Colts off guard, THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO!

My goodness if you want to have a discussion about QB's who aren't worth their contract, go to a Raiders forum and speak about that 5 trillion dollar buffoon that they call a QB!

LambertIsGod58
11-30-2008, 12:34 PM
Super Bowl XL was played in Indianapolis, that's right Indianapolis. The Colts were BY FAR, the best team that the Steelers were going to face during that entire playoff run, so, with that being said:

There's NO WAY that you're going to convince ANYONE on this board that Ben Roethlisberger didn't perform at All-Pro level in that game. Keep this in mind, WE WATCHED THE GAME MAN! The Steelers passed early and often in that game and #7 was PRECISE! In my opinion, Ben played the best game of his career versus the Colts.

I don't want to hear any nonsense about the Steelers catching the Colts off guard, THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO!

My goodness if you want to have a discussion about QB's who aren't worth their contract, go to a Raiders forum and speak about that 5 trillion dollar buffoon that they call a QB!

197yds 2 Tds and 1 Int a career game? And only 18pts given up to Indy's offense? The defense won that game....Ben did make some throws. But c'mon....Hell, if that's all you expect, I think Dilfer would take the job for half of what Ben's making.

fansince'76
11-30-2008, 12:44 PM
197yds 2 Tds and 1 Int a career game? And only 18pts given up to Indy's offense? The defense won that game....Ben did make some throws. But c'mon....Hell, if that's all you expect, I think Dilfer would take the job for half of what Ben's making.

And Brady won a SB MVP for going 16-27 for 145 and 1 TD in SB XXXVI. It could be argued that Vinatieri won that game. Does he work cheap?

LambertIsGod58
11-30-2008, 12:50 PM
And Brady won a SB MVP for going 16-27 for 145 and 1 TD in SB XXXVI. It could be argued that Vinatieri won that game. Does he work cheap?

I don't disagree that Brady didn't deserve that MVP. I would say that Vinatieri deserved it more.

Steelers & I
11-30-2008, 07:49 PM
197yds 2 Tds and 1 Int a career game? And only 18pts given up to Indy's offense? The defense won that game....Ben did make some throws. But c'mon....Hell, if that's all you expect, I think Dilfer would take the job for half of what Ben's making.


Well Bud, you can have Dilfer, I'll stick with Roethlisberger. Some of your posts make sense man but this one makes it seem as if you're way out of touch with reality.

iloveben7
11-30-2008, 08:00 PM
197yds 2 Tds and 1 Int a career game? And only 18pts given up to Indy's offense? The defense won that game....Ben did make some throws. But c'mon....Hell, if that's all you expect, I think Dilfer would take the job for half of what Ben's making.

Nope Ben won that game with the game-saving tackle. There was no way we were going to Superbowl XL if Ben didn't do the shoe-string tackle.

I'm done arguing with you because it's just not worth it.

NYC SteelersFan
11-30-2008, 08:24 PM
Nope Ben won that game with the game-saving tackle. There was no way we were going to Superbowl XL if Ben didn't do the shoe-string tackle.

I'm done arguing with you because it's just not worth it.

I'm done arguing with you because it's just not worth it

I'm with you on that. I can't argue with someone who has a man-crush combined with a player-hatred+unreasonable and "pulling out of his a$$" subjectivity and biasness. He did not respond to any of my prior comments that showed detailed stats but decided to respond once I accused him of fantasizing about performing felatio on Brett Favre (which I still think is true).

Great game for Favre today by the way, he really came through, maybe if he was the Steelers QB then we wouldv'e beat the Patriots by 33 instead of that measly 23 point beatdown we put on them with our "overrated" QB who could not shine Favre's shoes. I mean we all know how much better the Broncos are than the Patriots. Denver is 26th in pass defense, thats why Favre couldn't get a single TD.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 08:25 AM
I'm with you on that. I can't argue with someone who has a man-crush combined with a player-hatred+unreasonable and "pulling out of his a$$" subjectivity and biasness. He did not respond to any of my prior comments that showed detailed stats but decided to respond once I accused him of fantasizing about performing felatio on Brett Favre (which I still think is true).

Great game for Favre today by the way, he really came through, maybe if he was the Steelers QB then we wouldv'e beat the Patriots by 33 instead of that measly 23 point beatdown we put on them with our "overrated" QB who could not shine Favre's shoes. I mean we all know how much better the Broncos are than the Patriots. Denver is 26th in pass defense, thats why Favre couldn't get a single TD.

You can't comprehend anything I've said. Where have I said I hate Ben or that he sucks? The truth of the matter is that you can't handle anyone that doesn't wanna suck off Ben. And if you wanna compare single games, why don't we look at their SB performances? Favre makes Ben look like a child. :rofl:

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 09:27 AM
197yds 2 Tds and 1 Int a career game? And only 18pts given up to Indy's offense? The defense won that game....Ben did make some throws. But c'mon....Hell, if that's all you expect, I think Dilfer would take the job for half of what Ben's making.

You'd take Dilfer over Ben and you call ME an idiot??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Carry on...

:coffee:

Edman
12-01-2008, 09:31 AM
With yesterdays win, Ben has tied the record for most wins for a starter in his first five seasons, with 48. The other QB's? Dan Marino, Otto Graham, and Buttchin Brady.

Let's cut this bum.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 10:40 AM
You'd take Dilfer over Ben and you call ME an idiot??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Carry on...

:coffee:

I said that Dilfer would take half the money that Ben is getting paid.....where did I say I'd take him over Ben? I think we could get the same productivity from someone making alot less. To be honest, the teenage girl crushes on Ben are cute and all. Really. But he simply isn't what you project him to be. At least not yet. Some people see it....I just seem to be more vocal about it.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 11:27 AM
You know, when Ben threw the ball out the back of the endzone a couple times down in the red zone, instead of taking the sack.....I thought he really showed the maturity and composure that he has been lacking most of the season.

He scrambled and eventually the mental alarm clock went off to throw the ball away and still allow your team to come away with 3 points. Great game by Ben!!!

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 11:30 AM
With yesterdays win, Ben has tied the record for most wins for a starter in his first five seasons, with 48. The other QB's? Dan Marino, Otto Graham, and Buttchin Brady.

Let's cut this bum.

That's what I said earlier and Favre and Rivers aren't even in the top 5

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 11:50 AM
You can't comprehend anything I've said. Where have I said I hate Ben or that he sucks? The truth of the matter is that you can't handle anyone that doesn't wanna suck off Ben. And if you wanna compare single games, why don't we look at their SB performances? Favre makes Ben look like a child. :rofl:

I'm not a big fan of individual players, especially not offensive players, if there was someone better than the Berger who was actually available, I would want him in. If I ever watch Dixon play a full game and see that he is even "decent" and the Berger ends up being crap for more than a few games, I would want to see Dixon take over and see what the results would be. The fact is Leftwich is no way better. And the fact is anyone better than the Berger is not available. You on the other hand want to becomes Favre's personal sex toy if you thought you could get him here to play for Pittsburgh. Heck you would be Favre's sex toy regardless I think. And the fact is that Favre at this point is half the QB that the Berger is even if he were available.

Can you comprehend that contracts in the NFL are not guaranteed? Can you comprehend that although he may not be what you consider "great" he is within the top 5 QB's in the league any which way you cut it? Can you comprehend that only a personal-hater or idiot would be able to name 5 QB's currently in the league better than him? And can you comprehend that if you are within the top 10 QB's, let alone the top 5, you end up getting paid close to the guaranteed money that the Berger got? Wait to see how much Cassel signs for next season if he hasn't been permanently damaged by the Pittsburgh Defense.

And still, regardless of him being one of the top 5 QB's in the league, stop mentioning money, this is football not baseball, it's an idiotic argument 99% of the time unless your the Oakland Raiders, CONTRACTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED and the guaranteed portion is always fair and balanced with the rest of the teams in the league.

Again, Favre looked great last night by the way, only a special player could fail to throw for a TD against the 26th ranking pass defense in the league.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 11:51 AM
You know, when Ben threw the ball out the back of the endzone a couple times down in the red zone, instead of taking the sack.....I thought he really showed the maturity and composure that he has been lacking most of the season.

He scrambled and eventually the mental alarm clock went off to throw the ball away and still allow your team to come away with 3 points. Great game by Ben!!!

so he's still maturing as a QB in his mid-20's? Imagine that...

It'll be fun to see the final product in a few years.

:popcorn:

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 11:57 AM
I said that Dilfer would take half the money that Ben is getting paid.....where did I say I'd take him over Ben? I think we could get the same productivity from someone making alot less. To be honest, the teenage girl crushes on Ben are cute and all. Really. But he simply isn't what you project him to be. At least not yet. Some people see it....I just seem to be more vocal about it.

Like I said, he's still developing as an NFL QB and the book isn't even halfway finished at this point. We'll know more in 5-10 years as to whether he turns into one of the greats.

Currently though, IMO he's mature beyond his years...but I think he has all the mental/physical tools to get to the top of the mountain.

Notice that lately, he starting to throw the ball away and/or check down instead of trying to make the perfect play every time. Once he gets patience into his game, he's going to be even better.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 12:04 PM
so he's still maturing as a QB in his mid-20's? Imagine that...

It'll be fun to see the final product in a few years.

:popcorn: I know!!!

Most here see him as a finished product because he is a 5 year vet. Just imagine when he is 30, just about seen it all, feels better about throwing it away because he knows he can get a 15 yard gain on the very next play.

Ever see the movie "Colors" with Sean Penn and Robert Duval?? Duval is the old vet and explains to the young cop Penn how to be patient and look at the bigger picture with a story. Here is the dialog.

These two bulls are sittin' on a knoll
overlookin' a herd of Guernseys,...

...and the baby bull says
"Hey, Pop, let's
run down and fu(k one of those cows."

But the papa bull says
"No, Son.
Let's walk down and
Fu(k'em all."

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3916114/COLORS_-_By_Dennis_Hopper_-_BB4E
I apologize to the ladies on the board. Duval said it, not me.

DACEB
12-01-2008, 12:23 PM
so he's still maturing as a QB in his mid-20's? Imagine that...

It'll be fun to see the final product in a few years.

You ain't kidding, future looks bright.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 12:35 PM
I'm not a big fan of individual players, especially not offensive players, if there was someone better than the Berger who was actually available, I would want him in. If I ever watch Dixon play a full game and see that he is even "decent" and the Berger ends up being crap for more than a few games, I would want to see Dixon take over and see what the results would be. The fact is Leftwich is no way better. And the fact is anyone better than the Berger is not available. You on the other hand want to becomes Favre's personal sex toy if you thought you could get him here to play for Pittsburgh. Heck you would be Favre's sex toy regardless I think. And the fact is that Favre at this point is half the QB that the Berger is even if he were available.

Can you comprehend that contracts in the NFL are not guaranteed? Can you comprehend that although he may not be what you consider "great" he is within the top 5 QB's in the league any which way you cut it? Can you comprehend that only a personal-hater or idiot would be able to name 5 QB's currently in the league better than him? And can you comprehend that if you are within the top 10 QB's, let alone the top 5, you end up getting paid close to the guaranteed money that the Berger got? Wait to see how much Cassel signs for next season if he hasn't been permanently damaged by the Pittsburgh Defense.

And still, regardless of him being one of the top 5 QB's in the league, stop mentioning money, this is football not baseball, it's an idiotic argument 99% of the time unless your the Oakland Raiders, CONTRACTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED and the guaranteed portion is always fair and balanced with the rest of the teams in the league.

Again, Favre looked great last night by the way, only a special player could fail to throw for a TD against the 26th ranking pass defense in the league.



Using one game? Are you serious? Let's compare one game then. Superbowl vs Superbowl. Ben had the WORST QB rating of any winning QB in history. The worst of 40. And you wanna compare one regular season game from a QB that should be way past his prime? That's still outplaying your boy for the season. You're a joke. When and a BIG IF Ben is still in the league at 38, let's see if he can take his team to a Conference title game. Some of the previous posts mention that he's a work in progress....so why try and make him the icon that he's not at this point?

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 12:57 PM
Using one game? Are you serious? Let's compare one game then. Superbowl vs Superbowl. Ben had the WORST QB rating of any winning QB in history. The worst of 40. And you wanna compare one regular season game from a QB that should be way past his prime? That's still outplaying your boy for the season. You're a joke. When and a BIG IF Ben is still in the league at 38, let's see if he can take his team to a Conference title game. Some of the previous posts mention that he's a work in progress....so why try and make him the icon that he's not at this point?

You keep going back to comparing Ben to Favre and mentioning the Berger's Superbowl stats while continuously and conveniently skipping his playoff stats leading up to the Superbowl. And you did not address a single one of my other points. You chose to write a paragraph arguing against my last sentence that was just smack-talk against your lover, but you skipped my two paragraphs worth of arguments above that one sentence. You didn't name 5 QB's better than him, you didn't address his guaranteed money in comparison to other QB's in the league, you didn't say who you would want starting over him that was available.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 01:36 PM
You folks keep arguing Ben vs. Favre and guaranteed contracts or not. Frankly, the contract stuff is irrelevant. The fact that contracts are not guaranteed just means that most guys get their money up front in a signing bonus and its amortized over the life of the contract.

Favre had probably 5 great seasons in his prime around the super bowl years, then one good season out of the past 4 and he is playing well with the talent he has. Ben has had great seasons and bad seasons already. As for 5 QB's that I would want more than Favre currently, there are 7..... Peyton Manning, Romo, Palmer(if healthy), Brady (healthy), Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli Manning.

As we all know, Favre's best days are all behind him and this offseason will be his 4th in a row where he holds his team in suspense about retiring or not, just to satasfy his ego. His late father (Big Irv) would be ashamed of his tearful press conference and the 6 month circus that followed.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 01:46 PM
You keep going back to comparing Ben to Favre and mentioning the Berger's Superbowl stats while continuously and conveniently skipping his playoff stats leading up to the Superbowl. And you did not address a single one of my other points. You chose to write a paragraph arguing against my last sentence that was just smack-talk against your lover, but you skipped my two paragraphs worth of arguments above that one sentence. You didn't name 5 QB's better than him, you didn't address his guaranteed money in comparison to other QB's in the league, you didn't say who you would want starting over him that was available.

You made a comment about Favre and one game....so I did the same. Hypocritical especially when it exposes your boy as a poser....huh?

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 01:48 PM
http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08480/brett-favre-superman215.gif

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 01:50 PM
http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08480/brett-favre-superman215.gif

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:


LOL...that was creative Fan76. I'll give you that.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 01:51 PM
http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08480/brett-favre-superman215.gif

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:


Are there not any players over the years, big time players I'm talking, that you thought were overrated even though they were Steelers? Please tell me that you aren't that much of a homer to say no?

lilyoder6
12-01-2008, 01:51 PM
ben is considered one of the best qb's in the league right now.. and he still a young player and only will get better w/ each season

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 01:53 PM
Barry Foster was overrated big time. He got those yards behind a solid O line and couldnt do so when he left for a bigger contract.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 01:53 PM
Are there not any players over the years, big time players I'm talking, that you thought were overrated even though they were Steelers? Please tell me that you aren't that much of a homer to say no?

Sure, I thought Kevin Greene was overrated.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 01:53 PM
You folks keep arguing Ben vs. Favre and guaranteed contracts or not. Frankly, the contract stuff is irrelevant. The fact that contracts are not guaranteed just means that most guys get their money up front in a signing bonus and its amortized over the life of the contract.

Favre had probably 5 great seasons in his prime around the super bowl years, then one good season out of the past 4 and he is playing well with the talent he has. Ben has had great seasons and bad seasons already. As for 5 QB's that I would want more than Favre currently, there are 7..... Peyton Manning, Romo, Palmer(if healthy), Brady (healthy), Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli Manning.

As we all know, Favre's best days are all behind him and this offseason will be his 4th in a row where he holds his team in suspense about retiring or not, just to satasfy his ego. His late father (Big Irv) would be ashamed of his tearful press conference and the 6 month circus that followed.


Eli Manning has been and continues to be one of the most over-rated QB's of the last 4-5 years. He has a 76.1 QB rating despite his 91.3 this year, which happens to be the first time he has had a rating over 77. 96TD's and 72 INT's. Just pay close attention to what is going to start happening to this guys numbers once again now that Burress is officially gone.

Palmer is a pocket passer who needs a Brady/Payton Manning O-line to give him 3-5 seconds every time. He would be dead behind the Steelers O-line and it so happens he is dead anyway. Regardless of what Palmer is and what his numbers are and the fact that he's had a receiving corps twice as good as the Steelers for the span of his short career, at this point choosing Palmer (healthy) over Ben is like choosing Joe Montana (25 years young, still active and a free agent). It just doesn't count and the same has to go for Brady at this point, you would take him coming off that injury and not even knowing if he can still play? Just as Palmer came back from his injury a shell of his former self.

How many playoff games has Romo won?

I remind you, we would only get the QB not the playbook and offensive scheme.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 01:58 PM
You made a comment about Favre and one game....so I did the same. Hypocritical especially when it exposes your boy as a poser....huh?

But are you going to answer to any of the other points? No homo comments (no you love Favre and want to have his children comments). What about all the other points about contracts, 5 better QB's and how much they would be getting paid in comparison to the Berger? Are you going to answer any of these points?

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
But are you going to answer to any of the other points? No homo comments (no you love Favre and want to have his children comments). What about all the other points about contracts, 5 better QB's and how much they would be getting paid in comparison to the Berger? Are you going to answer any of these points?

5 QB's I'd rather have.....P.Manning, E. Manning, T. Brady, C.Palmer, T. Romo, D. Bress, B. Favre The contract shit.......WHATEVER!! He's not worth the money regardless of your constant reminders about how it works. I know how it works. Doesn't change my mind. That's why I don't reply to it.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 02:04 PM
Using one game? Are you serious? Let's compare one game then. Superbowl vs Superbowl. Ben had the WORST QB rating of any winning QB in history. The worst of 40. And you wanna compare one regular season game from a QB that should be way past his prime? That's still outplaying your boy for the season. You're a joke. When and a BIG IF Ben is still in the league at 38, let's see if he can take his team to a Conference title game. Some of the previous posts mention that he's a work in progress....so why try and make him the icon that he's not at this point?

Ok we get it and you've been saying it the past 100 of posts, Ben had the worst rating in the Superbowl ever. We understand that, but we still won.

But how are you allowed to make the opposite comments about him. If you wanna look at Ben right now, he's currently tied for most wins in his first 5 seasons with 48 and most likely will top that list by the end of the season, he's the youngest QB to win a Superbowl, is undefeated in the state of Ohio, holds the record for most TD's in a single season in Steelers history, highest passer rating in rookie season, 15 come from behind victories in the 4th quarter, and so on. If you're not letting us make him an icon, then why should we let you make him seem like he isn't one. I know Ben is nowhere near perfect, but he's probably had the best 1st 5 seasons in history. His career is not even halfway over, so he may go down or he may go up, but at least give him a chance. Because by looking at his stats there is NO way you can say that he isn't one of the top 3 QB's in the game.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 02:09 PM
5 QB's I'd rather have.....P.Manning, E. Manning, T. Brady, C.Palmer, T. Romo, D. Bress, B. Favre The contract shit.......WHATEVER!! He's not worth the money regardless of your constant reminders about how it works. I know how it works. Doesn't change my mind. That's why I don't reply to it.

I know how it works, doesn't change my mind, that's why I don't reply to it. LOL..classic

I know the Sun never moves, I know the Earth just rotates, but I'm still going to trash talk the Sun for not always being there.

And half your QB picks are sickening. It disgusts me to know you're actually a fan of this team and would want Romo or Eli Manning under center. Just stop responding, you're making an absolute fool of yourself.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 02:10 PM
5 QB's I'd rather have.....P.Manning, E. Manning, T. Brady, C.Palmer, T. Romo, D. Bress, B. Favre The contract shit.......WHATEVER!! He's not worth the money regardless of your constant reminders about how it works. I know how it works. Doesn't change my mind. That's why I don't reply to it.

haha good luck with romo. He's like 3-7 in games after Thanksgiving when the games really matter. He's HORRIBLE in the playoffs (never won a game) and he can't handle the pressure. Oh and he goes on vacations to Mexico with his girlfriend instead of focusing on the game.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 02:14 PM
Completely ignorant moron!

Please cool it with the namecalling.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
edited even though it was true.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
Please cool it with the namecalling.


It's ok Fan...that's his mentality. It's either name-calling or homo jokes. I think he'll get together with his 8th grade friends and start using "your" Mom jokes. I think we should be more concerned whether or not he's home all alone.

X-Terminator
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
Romo...yeah, I really want a guy who has never won a playoff game despite having a crapload of talent around him. Makes sense to me... :coffee:

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 02:25 PM
edited even though it was true.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 02:26 PM
It's ok Fan...that's his mentality. It's either name-calling or homo jokes. I think he'll get together with his 8th grade friends and start using "your" Mom jokes. I think we should be more concerned whether or not he's home all alone.

Lets try this to be fair. You NEED a franchise QB, someone you HAVE TO sign long-term and not worry about for 5-6 years. Now name 5 QB's you take over the Berger.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 02:27 PM
I know how it works, doesn't change my mind, that's why I don't reply to it. LOL..classic

I know the Sun never moves, I know the Earth just rotates, but I'm still going to trash talk the Sun for not always being there.

What ignorance.

And half your QB picks are sickening. It disgusts me to know you're actually a fan of this team and would want Romo or Eli Manning under center. Just stop responding, you're making an absolute fool of yourself.


I'm making a fool of myself? lf you were to step out in the real world and regurgitate the same nonsense about Ben, you'd find that you're in the minority about his true ability at this point.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Eli Manning has been and continues to be one of the most over-rated QB's of the last 4-5 years. He has a 76.1 QB rating despite his 91.3 this year, which happens to be the first time he has had a rating over 77. 96TD's and 72 INT's. Just pay close attention to what is going to start happening to this guys numbers once again now that Burress is officially gone.

Palmer is a pocket passer who needs a Brady/Payton Manning O-line to give him 3-5 seconds every time. He would be dead behind the Steelers O-line and it so happens he is dead anyway. Regardless of what Palmer is and what his numbers are and the fact that he's had a receiving corps twice as good as the Steelers for the span of his short career, at this point choosing Palmer (healthy) over Ben is like choosing Joe Montana (25 years young, still active and a free agent). It just doesn't count and the same has to go for Brady at this point, you would take him coming off that injury and not even knowing if he can still play? Just as Palmer came back from his injury a shell of his former self.

How many playoff games has Romo won?

I remind you, we would only get the QB not the playbook and offensive scheme.

Eli Manning can make all the throws and is now making better decisions than any other point in his career. I even think he is better than Ben.

Palmer before the elbow injury was one of the most polished QB prospects to come out of college and made excellent decisions and throws with great accuracy. He had a lousy O line and put up great numbers despite not having a defense.

Saying Palmer came back as a "shell of his former self" is a joke. In 2006, Palmer threw for over 4000 yards, with 28TD's and 13INT's......BASICALLY THE SAME STATS THAT FAVRE HAD LAST SEASON IN GB. (Favre was 4100, 28TD, 15 INT)

Thinking Brady cant still play because of a knee injury is grasping at straws....it wasnt his arm that was injured and not like he was a running QB or something. (See Carson Palmer reference above).

Romo makes better decisions than Favre and TEAM's win games, NOT JUST QB's. That's why I take him.

As for only getting the QB and not the playbook. Then I definately take any of those 7. Favre is a guy that played in a west coast type system his whole career and needs that system to be successful. Does this mean if we only get the QB, then we dont get the current Jets O line that consists of 4- former 1st round picks??

Charles Barkley said it best, that Favre should have retired after last season, because he was hanging on too long and had 3 poor seasons before that. I give credit that Favre is playing well now and is a beneficiary of a solid O line, good defense and a weak schedule.

BTW, why bring contract values into your discussion of QB's??

devilsdancefloor
12-01-2008, 02:30 PM
It is almost obscene for you to say you'd rather have Homo or Brady for our QB!! Are you sure you are a Steelers fan? So who are you gonna root for this weekend ??? Tough isnt it NOT! Come on man you are fighting to be fighting.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 02:31 PM
It's ok Fan...that's his mentality. It's either name-calling or homo jokes. I think he'll get together with his 8th grade friends and start using "your" Mom jokes. I think we should be more concerned whether or not he's home all alone.

don't act like you're innocent. You called me an idiot without any name calling on my part.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Ok we get it and you've been saying it the past 100 of posts, Ben had the worst rating in the Superbowl ever. We understand that, but we still won.

But how are you allowed to make the opposite comments about him. If you wanna look at Ben right now, he's currently tied for most wins in his first 5 seasons with 48 and most likely will top that list by the end of the season, he's the youngest QB to win a Superbowl, is undefeated in the state of Ohio, holds the record for most TD's in Steelers history, highest passer rating in rookie season, 15 come from behind victories in the 4th quarter, and so on. If you're not letting us make him an icon, then why should we let you make him seem like he isn't one. I know Ben is nowhere near perfect, but he's probably had the best 1st 5 seasons in history. His career is not even halfway over, so he may go down or he may go up, but at least give him a chance. Because by looking at his stats there is NO way you can say that he isn't one of the top 3 QB's in the game.



Most TD's in Steelers history? I bet that Terry Bradshaw would have something to say about that. Double check your facts. Bradshaw 212. Ben 97, not even half way yet.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 02:37 PM
don't act like you're innocent. You called me an idiot without any name calling on my part.

And he also refused to answer to your points just as he does to mine. He says, "Ben is overrated". So we say, "yeah but no one even talks about him outside the forum". So then he says, "well he's over-paid!". So then we say, "yeah but the money is not guaranteed and he is piad accordingly to his position amongst the other QB's in the league." so then he says, "I know that, it doesn;t matter, I still say he's over-paid".

It's pointless.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Most TD's in Steelers history? I bet that Terry Bradshaw would have something to say about that. Double check your facts. Bradshaw 212. Ben 97, not even half way yet.

i meant in a season

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 02:41 PM
Eli Manning can make all the throws and is now making better decisions than any other point in his career. I even think he is better than Ben.

Well, it's about time he gets it - after all, he was groomed to play QB in the NFL pretty much since he could crawl. As opposed to Ben who first started playing the position as a senior in HS. I think it's also safe to say that Ben has never had 3 pick-sixes in the same game like Eli did last year.

Romo makes better decisions than Favre and TEAM's win games, NOT JUST QB's. That's why I take him.

Romo is good for at LEAST one pick a game, every game. Superior decision-making ability? OK.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 02:46 PM
don't act like you're innocent. You called me an idiot without any name calling on my part.

I must have you confused you with NYC. I apologize.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 02:52 PM
Eli Manning can make all the throws and is now making better decisions than any other point in his career. I even think he is better than Ben.

Palmer before the elbow injury was one of the most polished QB prospects to come out of college and made excellent decisions and throws with great accuracy. He had a lousy O line and put up great numbers despite not having a defense.

Saying Palmer came back as a "shell of his former self" is a joke. In 2006, Palmer threw for over 4000 yards, with 28TD's and 13INT's......BASICALLY THE SAME STATS THAT FAVRE HAD LAST SEASON IN GB. (Favre was 4100, 28TD, 15 INT)

Thinking Brady cant still play because of a knee injury is grasping at straws....it wasnt his arm that was injured and not like he was a running QB or something. (See Carson Palmer reference above).

Romo makes better decisions than Favre and TEAM's win games, NOT JUST QB's. That's why I take him.

As for only getting the QB and not the playbook. Then I definately take any of those 7. Favre is a guy that played in a west coast type system his whole career and needs that system to be successful. Does this mean if we only get the QB, then we dont get the current Jets O line that consists of 4- former 1st round picks??

Charles Barkley said it best, that Favre should have retired after last season, because he was hanging on too long and had 3 poor seasons before that. I give credit that Favre is playing well now and is a beneficiary of a solid O line, good defense and a weak schedule.

BTW, why bring contract values into your discussion of QB's??

I keep bringing the contract into the discussion Gonzo cause the basis for Lambert's/I love Favre argument is that he is over-rated and over-paid.

Now onto you, Eli Manning and Ben have both been playing for 5 years, not including this year, which isn't over yet, there is absolutely no comparison between these two QB's over the past 4 years. Not TD's vs INT's, not Passer Completion%, not QB rating, not mobility, not wins, nothing. So unless you're saying that Eli is better THIS YEAR in comparison to the Berger THIS YEAR, then I just don't understand what you're saying.

As for Palmer, he came back from having a 101 rating to a 93 followed the next year by an 86 followed this year by a 69. He's not the same QB, whether it's the injuries piling up, Chad Johnson no longer playing, or the TEAM's offense falling apart, he is not the same.

Why is it grasping at straws? He'll be 32 for the start of next season. How much money would you bet that he comes back at 100% of what he was? Especially with the leg suffering an infection.

Romo makes better decisions than Favre and TEAM's win games, NOT JUST QB's. That's why I take him.

What exactly do you base this on? How many Cowboy games have you watched beginning to end and if the number is high, why may I ask? If you're basing this on ESPN highlights then every QB usually looks good cause they only show the good stuff, that's why it's called highlights.

And I'll aslo rephrase the question to you, if you needed a franchise QB, needed to sign him and have a peace of mind for 5-6 years at the QB position, name 5 guys who are active that you would take over the Berger.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 02:57 PM
Well, it's about time he gets it - he was groomed to play QB in the NFL since he could crawl. As opposed to Ben who first started playing the position as a senior in HS. I think it's also safe to say that Ben has never had 3 pick-sixes in the same game like Eli did last year.



Romo is good for at LEAST one pick a game, every game. Superior decision-making ability? OK.

Back when Eli was a Jr. at Ole Miss, he said he wasnt really that interested in football....while Peyton ate, breathed and slept it. Its why I questioned if he ever would be a good pro. He's getting it together now.

I never said Romo had "Superior decision-making ability". I just said it was better than Favre(currently)......which aint saying that much. Romo's TD: INT ratio is 21:8 this season(36:19 last year) is much better than either Favre, Ben's have historically been.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 03:06 PM
Ok we get it and you've been saying it the past 100 of posts, Ben had the worst rating in the Superbowl ever. We understand that, but we still won.

But how are you allowed to make the opposite comments about him. If you wanna look at Ben right now, he's currently tied for most wins in his first 5 seasons with 48 and most likely will top that list by the end of the season, he's the youngest QB to win a Superbowl, is undefeated in the state of Ohio, holds the record for most TD's in a single season in Steelers history, highest passer rating in rookie season, 15 come from behind victories in the 4th quarter, and so on. If you're not letting us make him an icon, then why should we let you make him seem like he isn't one. I know Ben is nowhere near perfect, but he's probably had the best 1st 5 seasons in history. His career is not even halfway over, so he may go down or he may go up, but at least give him a chance. Because by looking at his stats there is NO way you can say that he isn't one of the top 3 QB's in the game.

One thing I forgot....you keep referencing Ben's "most wins" in first five seasons. Two things. One, Ben wasn't winning those games with his arm. Running game and defense were more of a factor. Second, the Packers hadn't been in the playoffs for over 20 years, closer to 25 I believe, before Favre came to town. That to me is more impressive than riding the coat tails of a team that was already pretty much established. Didn't we make the 2002 AFCC? Yep....I was there. With Slash at the helm.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 03:07 PM
I must have you confused you with NYC. I apologize.


Apology accepted. Thank you!

:drink:

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 03:07 PM
Back when Eli was a Jr. at Ole Miss, he said he wasnt really that interested in football....while Peyton ate, breathed and slept it. Its why I questioned if he ever would be a good pro. He's getting it together now.

I never said Romo had "Superior decision-making ability". I just said it was better than Favre(currently)......which aint saying that much. Romo's TD: INT ratio is 21:8 this season(36:19 last year) is much better than either Favre, Ben's have historically been.

Fair enough. Up until the playoffs last year, I had questioned Eli's "desire" as well. I apologize for miscontruing your comments about Romo - I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. :drink:

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
One thing I forgot....you keep referencing Ben's "most wins" in first five seasons. Two things. One, Ben wasn't winning those games with his arm. Running game and defense were more of a factor. Second, the Packers hadn't been in the playoffs for over 20 years, closer to 25 I believe, before Favre came to town. That to me is more impressive than riding the coat tails of a team that was already pretty much established. Didn't we make the 2002 AFCC? Yep....I was there. With Slash at the helm.

yeah a team that was already established. We went from 6-10 to 15-1

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
One more thing, What does Eli Manning, Romo, Brady and Palmer all have in common?

Burress, Owens, Moss and Chad Johnson=The best receivers in the league over the past 4-5 years. Burress and Owens single handedly made Eli Manning and Romo who they are.

So also remember that none of those WR's are following the QB's you've picked over the Berger.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
I keep bringing the contract into the discussion Gonzo cause the basis for Lambert's/I love Favre argument is that he is over-rated and over-paid.

Now onto you, Eli Manning and Ben have both been playing for 5 years, not including this year, which isn't over yet, there is absolutely no comparison between these two QB's over the past 4 years. Not TD's vs INT's, not Passer Completion%, not QB rating, not mobility, not wins, nothing. So unless you're saying that Eli is better THIS YEAR in comparison to the Berger THIS YEAR, then I just don't understand what you're saying.

As for Palmer, he came back from having a 101 rating to a 93 followed the next year by an 86 followed this year by a 69. He's not the same QB, whether it's the injuries piling up, Chad Johnson no longer playing, or the TEAM's offense falling apart, he is not the same.

Why is it grasping at straws? He'll be 32 for the start of next season. How much money would you bet that he comes back at 100% of what he was? Especially with the leg suffering an infection.



What exactly do you base this on? How many Cowboy games have you watched beginning to end and if the number is high, why may I ask? If you're basing this on ESPN highlights then every QB usually looks good cause they only show the good stuff, that's why it's called highlights.

And I'll aslo rephrase the question to you, if you needed a franchise QB, needed to sign him and have a peace of mind for 5-6 years at the QB position, name 5 guys who are active that you would take over the Berger.

Thanks for clearing up the contract thing....the $$ irrelevant to me.

I think counting out Brady because of a leg injury is just grasping at straws to make a point. Its like saying Jeff Reed's career was threatened by an elbow injury. Palmer's QB rating dropping from 101 to only 93 and a pro bowl level is also grasping at straws. (he is done now that he needs Tommy John surgery)

I think Eli is progressing ahead of Ben at this point in time. Each year there seems to be talk of this being Ben's breakout year to an elite level QB and I dont think he is there yet. I look forward to it happening in the next few seasons.

Romo's decision making I attribute to the games I have seen, the TD: INT ratio of his in his 2 seasons as a starter and the fact that he too is still developing.

To answer your question of who do I want for the next 5 years above Ben. None. (Manning and Ryan are close, Cutler and a defense would be dangerous too.) But if its down to one season, I think there are several QB's that are ahead of him at this point in time. Ben isnt the best in the NFL, but he is top 10 and still needs to learn a lot.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
Apology accepted. Thank you!

:drink:

No problem....I was wrong.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 03:13 PM
Fair enough. Up until the playoffs last year, I had questioned Eli's "desire" as well. I apologize for miscontruing your comments about Romo - I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. :drink:

We are all good 76. I dont take anything on these boards personal.

The thing with Romo is he throws his picks mostly by trying to muscle balls into small windows, where both Ben and Favre sometimes throw picks that make me go......what was he looking at ?? :noidea:

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 03:17 PM
yeah a team that was already established. We went from 6-10 to 15-1

That "great team" was 6-10 the previous year and an amazing 1-1 when Ben took over...yet somehow they rose above his "game management" and went 14-0 the rest of the way.

Meanwhile, Eli is being lauded as this great QB all of a sudden, when prior to Sunday, he failed to eclipse 200 yds passing in 6 straight games. Yet, the team was 5-1. Why? Good balance on offense and good defense. That sounds an awful lot like Ben's rookie season, yet he was labelled a "game manager"? By the way, he had 9 TDs against 6 picks in those 6 games.

This was prior to Sunday's game, of course.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 03:20 PM
That "great team" was 6-10 the previous year and an amazing 1-1 when Ben took over...yet somehow they rose above his "game management" and went 14-0 the rest of the way.

Meanwhile, Eli is being lauded as this great QB all of a sudden, when prior to Sunday, he failed to eclipse 200 yds passing in 6 straight games. Yet, the team was 5-1. Why? Good balance on offense and good defense. That sounds an awful lot like Ben's rookie season, yet he was labelled a "game manager"? By the way, he had 9 TDs against 6 picks in those 6 games.

This was prior to Sunday's game, of course.

Yeah Ben just must have managed the game so well that the team turned itself around. And Eli has been overrated ever since he's been in the league

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 03:21 PM
I think counting out Brady because of a leg injury is just grasping at straws to make a point. Its like saying Jeff Reed's career was threatened by an elbow injury. Palmer's QB rating dropping from 101 to only 93 and a pro bowl level is also grasping at straws. (he is done now that he needs Tommy John surgery)

His age and injury have to be taken into consideration if you are picking a QB to lead the team over the course of the next 5-6 years or even 4-5 years. I didn't say that Brady's injury or age means he not better than the Berger, he is.

Palmer went from 101 to 93 in one year, he went from 101-69 in 3 years and that was before his arm. And if he is done now like you say, which I agree, then he to does not count as being taken ahead of Ben.

Eli has not progressed, the Giants have progressed. You put 10 out of 32 QB's in the league under center for the Giants and they are still 11-1, maybe 10-1 at worst. I'm talking about, Jeff Garcia, McNabb, Delhome, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, etc..

They are #1 in the rush and the offensive line is extraordinary, watch a game when you get a chance, Eli has a COMFORTABLE 5 seconds nearly every snap. And Burress making catches that only he or Moss could make over the years has helped keep Eli's miserable PASS Completion% at 55.9 for his career otherwise he would barely be at 50%. And again, this year is the first year he has had a QB rating above 77. Unless the Giants win again this year and ELI has a good postseason and Superbowl performance, Eli and Ben should not mentioned in the same sentence.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 03:21 PM
One more thing, What does Eli Manning, Romo, Brady and Palmer all have in common?

Burress, Owens, Moss and Chad Johnson=The best receivers in the league over the past 4-5 years. Burress and Owens single handedly made Eli Manning and Romo who they are.

So also remember that none of those WR's are following the QB's you've picked over the Berger.

That's why I think Romo is overrated a bit.

I'd like to see him do it without Owens. After all, TO made Garcia a Pro Bowl QB and made McNabb look elite during his short time in Philly.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 03:25 PM
That's why I think Romo is overrated a bit.

I'd like to see him do it without Owens. After all, TO made Garcia a Pro Bowl QB and made McNabb look elite during his short time in Philly.

i think TO could make me look like an elite QB :chuckle:

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 03:25 PM
yeah a team that was already established. We went from 6-10 to 15-1


Did the team before 6-10 make it to the AFCC game or not? In GB, they hadn't seen playoffs for over 25yrs.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 03:26 PM
That's why I think Romo is overrated a bit.

I'd like to see him do it without Owens. After all, TO made Garcia a Pro Bowl QB and made McNabb look elite during his short time in Philly.

Amen brother!

And the same goes for what Burress did for Eli. Now that teams don't have to prepare for Burress and the #1 corner has to cover Toomer or Hixon, and the Safety's don't have to worry about Burress, watch what happens to Eli and the Giants. If not in the regular season then in the playoffs.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 03:30 PM
Did the team before 6-10 make it to the AFCC game or not? In GB, they hadn't seen playoffs for over 25yrs.

I think so, I don't know because I didn't start watching until 04. But what I'm saying is that Ben turned the team around from 6-10 to 15-1. And Favre did the same sort of thing when he went to the Packers. How come he didn't do that with the Falcons?? :laughing:

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 03:35 PM
As far as comparisons go....I compared Ben's first 5 yrs with Kordell's and O'Donnell's 5 yrs.

Here is how they average for that time frame.

O'Donnell 66 games
Ben 69 games
Stewart 71 games

Stats averaged over 5 yrs goes as follows:


O'donnell 2573yds
Ben 2817yds
Stewart 2402yds

O'Donnell 13.6 TD's
Ben 19.4 TD's
Stewart 12.6 TD's

O'Donne'll 7.8 INT's
Ben 13.2 INT's
Stewart 12.8 INT's

O'Donnell 29.6 sacks
Ben 35.8 sacks
Stewart 26.8 sacks


all of these numbers say Ben is better than O'Donnell and Stewart. But by how much? Not a huge disparity there IMO.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 03:37 PM
I would think if Ben is so great than why don't his numbers scream out that he's so infinitely better? Let me guess.....ONE FOR THE THUMB? surely you can do better than that.

MACH1
12-01-2008, 03:41 PM
3....2.....1.....Favre is a god.


:yawn::yawn::yawn:

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 03:45 PM
I would think if Ben is so great than why don't his numbers scream out that he's so infinitely better? Let me guess.....ONE FOR THE THUMB? surely you can do better than that.

Be sure to average they're QB ratings, Completion% and Attempts.

Then remind everyone how Kordell got sacked nearly 10 times less and O'donnell nearly 6 times less. Then remind everyone how Kordell got crushed against the Broncos and Patriots in both AFC championship games and remind everyone how O'donnell single handedly lost us the Superbowl with his 2 INT's right into the hands of Cowboy defenders.

And also remind everyone who the Runningback was for those 2 QB's and how many yards and rushing TD's he compiled while those 2 played. And if you have a bit more time, tell everyone where we ranked in rushing offense for the first 5 years of Kordell and O'Donnell. And I hope you didn't count the first 2 seasons of Kordell's career as part of the averaging cause he wasn't the starting QB, he was still slash.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 03:45 PM
As far as comparisons go....I compared Ben's first 5 yrs with Kordell's and O'Donnell's 5 yrs.

Here is how they average for that time frame.

O'Donnell 66 games
Ben 69 games
Stewart 71 games

Stats averaged over 5 yrs goes as follows:


O'donnell 2573yds
Ben 2817yds
Stewart 2402yds

O'Donnell 13.6 TD's
Ben 19.4 TD's
Stewart 12.6 TD's

O'Donne'll 7.8 INT's
Ben 13.2 INT's
Stewart 12.8 INT's

O'Donnell 29.6 sacks
Ben 35.8 sacks
Stewart 26.8 sacks


all of these numbers say Ben is better than O'Donnell and Stewart. But by how much? Not a huge disparity there IMO.

I get the feeling you're a fantasy leaguer.... Ben gave us something those 2 never did, a ring. O'Donnell single handedly gave away a SB and the other guy was a complete idiot in big games.

Some guys just win and don't need big stats to do it. I have this argument with McNabb backers out here in Philly all the time (although, they're getting fewer and fewer this year). QBs like McNabb should throw for 300 every game, their offense is built that way. The bEagles throw the ball some ridiculous percentage (65-70% of the time).

Does that make McNabb a great QB?

It's like the Eddie George argument in reverse, Eddie George ran the ball a ton and racked up yards even though he only averaged like 3 yards a carry. Does that make him a great back because he had 1000 yard seasons?

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 03:45 PM
His age and injury have to be taken into consideration if you are picking a QB to lead the team over the course of the next 5-6 years or even 4-5 years. I didn't say that Brady's injury or age means he not better than the Berger, he is.

Palmer went from 101 to 93 in one year, he went from 101-69 in 3 years and that was before his arm. And if he is done now like you say, which I agree, then he to does not count as being taken ahead of Ben.

Eli has not progressed, the Giants have progressed. You put 10 out of 32 QB's in the league under center for the Giants and they are still 11-1, maybe 10-1 at worst. I'm talking about, Jeff Garcia, McNabb, Delhome, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, etc..

They are #1 in the rush and the offensive line is extraordinary, watch a game when you get a chance, Eli has a COMFORTABLE 5 seconds nearly every snap. And Burress making catches that only he or Moss could make over the years has helped keep Eli's miserable PASS Completion% at 55.9 for his career otherwise he would barely be at 50%. And again, this year is the first year he has had a QB rating above 77. Unless the Giants win again this year and ELI has a good postseason and Superbowl performance, Eli and Ben should not mentioned in the same sentence.
Palmer's regression over 3 years has more to do with team than individual(I think we all can see that). Just as you argue that Eli's progression has to do with the Giants progression....not individual progression. Difficult to argue the opposite in 2 similar circumstances .....dont you think?

I disagree that Ben and Eli should not be compared. Both are part of the crop of great young QB's. Manning is grown into more of the intelligent game managing QB,(Like a Ken Anderson type guy), while Ben is more of the risk-taking QB (like Elway, Kelly or Fouts). The guy that is questionably named by you is Jason Campbell.

Also, please dont condescendingly suggest that I should "watch a (Giants) game" when I get a chance. I was watching Giants games since Ray Perkins was the coach and now with the addition of NFL Sunday Ticket and TiVo, I have watched around 5 this season.

lamberts-lost-tooth
12-01-2008, 03:56 PM
You cant have this type of debate about Favre and Ben without figuring in longevity.

That alone makes it an apples to oranges type of argument.....ANY player in ANY pro sport playing ANY position will pad their numbers with longevity. Favre is a great QB... but his lifetime passing yards...TD's...and number of consecutive games played have to be looked at through the understanding that He was so competitive that he rarely if ever would sit a game out.....and some of that was through a desire to not give the QB behind him any stage to shine.


The only true comparison ypu can make right now is the first 4 complete years with their teams....since any future speculation for Ben...is just that... and cannot be based on any real facts.

By the way...the first 4 years?

QB Rating:
Favre= 86.9%
Ben= 94.5%

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 04:00 PM
Kordell's postseason stats in 4 games-

68 completions 131 attempts, 51.7 Cmp% 744 yards, 2 TD's and 8 INT's, QB rating of 51

O'donnell postseason stats in 7 games-

158 completions 273 attempts, 58.2 Cmp% 1690 yards, 9 TD's and 8 INT's, QB rating of 76.3

The Berger postseason stats in 7 games-

118 completions 189 attempts, 62.4 Cmp% 1547 yards, 12 TD's and 11 INT's, QB rating of 85.1

Favre postseason stats in 22 games-

438 completions 721 attempts, 60.7 Cmp% 5311 yards, 39 TD's and 28 INT's, QB rating of 85.2

cubanstogie
12-01-2008, 04:00 PM
As far as comparisons go....I compared Ben's first 5 yrs with Kordell's and O'Donnell's 5 yrs.

Here is how they average for that time frame.

O'Donnell 66 games
Ben 69 games
Stewart 71 games

Stats averaged over 5 yrs goes as follows:


O'donnell 2573yds
Ben 2817yds
Stewart 2402yds

O'Donnell 13.6 TD's
Ben 19.4 TD's
Stewart 12.6 TD's

O'Donne'll 7.8 INT's
Ben 13.2 INT's
Stewart 12.8 INT's

O'Donnell 29.6 sacks
Ben 35.8 sacks
Stewart 26.8 sacks


all of these numbers say Ben is better than O'Donnell and Stewart. But by how much? Not a huge disparity there IMO.

The huge disparity is TD's and the big stat you left out WINS. Not to mention Ben has had the worst offensive line IMO. Stats don't tell all, If you can't concede to Ben being much better than Kordell or O'Donnell you don't have any Football sense. People, inlcluding me are wasting our breath with you and Ben. You are an ungrateful fan who will never be satisfied.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 04:02 PM
On the biggest stage in the world:

O'Donnell: 28/49 239yds 1TD 3 INT's
Ben: 9/21 123yds 1TD 2 INT's


O'Donnell gets blasted for his SB loss and that's what he's remembered for. But Ben performs at the same or lower level and he's still the next coming.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 04:06 PM
Also, please dont condescendingly suggest that I should "watch a (Giants) game" when I get a chance. I was watching Giants games since Ray Perkins was the coach and now with the addition of NFL Sunday Ticket and TiVo, I have watched around 5 this season.

It wasn't condescending, I would think if you live in PA then you have no way or no reason to watch a Giants game, I live in NY, I have no choice unfortunately. And if you do watch the Giants then you know Eli is not better than Ben otherwise you may be watching TOO many Giant games.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 04:07 PM
ever wonder what a dog feels like when he's chasing his tail??

:noidea:

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 04:08 PM
You cant have this type of debate about Favre and Ben without figuring in longevity.

That alone makes it an apples to oranges type of argument.....ANY player in ANY pro sport playing ANY position will pad their numbers with longevity. Favre is a great QB... but his lifetime passing yards...TD's...and number of consecutive games played have to be looked at through the understanding that He was so competitive that he rarely if ever would sit a game out.....and some of that was through a desire to not give the QB behind him any stage to shine.


The only true comparison ypu can make right now is the first 4 complete years with their teams....since any future speculation for Ben...is just that... and cannot be based on any real facts.

By the way...the first 4 years?

QB Rating:
Favre= 86.9%
Ben= 94.5%

That was the first stat I put up for him Lamberts-lost-tooth, he ignored it and repeated Ben's stats for the Superbowl. It's a lost cause.

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 04:10 PM
The huge disparity is TD's and the big stat you left out WINS. Not to mention Ben has had the worst offensive line IMO. Stats don't tell all, If you can't concede to Ben being much better than Kordell or O'Donnell you don't have any Football sense. People, inlcluding me are wasting our breath with you and Ben. You are an ungrateful fan who will never be satisfied.


you left out that Ben throws almost twice as many INT's as O'Donnell not to mentioned gets sacked more often. It's funny how you use the O-line for every mistake Ben makes. Ungrateful? Because I'm a Steelers fan, not a Ben fan? I hate to tell you that it's a team sport. There's 52 other players on that team. And just b/c I don't like the face of the franchise doesn't mean I'm not a fan. If Ben was the reason we won that title, I'd probably be singing "Ben is the end all be all", but he wasn't.

MACH1
12-01-2008, 04:14 PM
:yawn:

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 04:15 PM
On the biggest stage in the world:

O'Donnell: 28/49 239yds 1TD 3 INT's
Ben: 9/21 123yds 1TD 2 INT's


O'Donnell gets blasted for his SB loss and that's what he's remembered for. But Ben performs at the same or lower level and he's still the next coming.

OMG do you have to mention this in every single one of your posts? We all get it. I have one word for you-WIN!!! The Steelers won Superbowl XL, they didn't win Superbowl XXX.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 04:16 PM
It wasn't condescending, I would think if you live in PA then you have no way or no reason to watch a Giants game, I live in NY, I have no choice unfortunately. And if you do watch the Giants then you know Eli is not better than Ben otherwise you may be watching TOO many Giant games.

Thanks, but nowhere did I mention that I live in PA and in fact don't. I have watched Eli and the G, and have seen the struggles and progression in the past 4 years. He is now making better decisions, smart decisions and good throws when he has to.

IMO, Ben is that QB that can lead you to a come from behind win and also dig you into a hole by taking chances and questionable decisions. Manning is a guy that is learning to not beat himself, rely on the team and make the throws where he has to. Two completely different QB's, but both with great arm strength, NFL experience and a Lombardi trophy.

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 04:16 PM
you left out that Ben throws almost twice as many INT's as O'Donnell not to mentioned gets sacked more often. It's funny how you use the O-line for every mistake Ben makes. Ungrateful? Because I'm a Steelers fan, not a Ben fan? I hate to tell you that it's a team sport. There's 52 other players on that team. And just b/c I don't like the face of the franchise doesn't mean I'm not a fan. If Ben was the reason we won that title, I'd probably be singing "Ben is the end all be all", but he wasn't.

hmm ok if it's a team sport then how are all those INT's and sacks Ben's fault??

stlrtruck
12-01-2008, 04:17 PM
Here's my 2 cents (and you can keep the change). I think without Ben we don't win the Super Bowl in 05. Is he an elite QB? Not by today's standards but he's definitely one of the best field leaders available in the NFL and I believe much better at controlling the game (ala one Mr. Terry Bradshaw). And while his stats won't get padded like Manning, Brady, or Favre - he is the best QB for this team!

As for the face of the franchise, I'd say the defensive players are starting to lay claim to some of that recognition!

steelpride12
12-01-2008, 04:20 PM
Here's my 2 cents (and you can keep the change). I think without Ben we don't win the Super Bowl in 05. Is he an elite QB? Not by today's standards but he's definitely one of the best field leaders available in the NFL and I believe much better at controlling the game (ala one Mr. Terry Bradshaw). And while his stats won't get padded like Manning, Brady, or Favre - he is the best QB for this team!

As for the face of the franchise, I'd say the defensive players are starting to lay claim to some of that recognition!

Something else you have to keep in mind as well is that Ben is still pretty young and last season had his best at least stats wise, and has a Superbowl right. True not the best QB, not the best stats, but he is our franchise QB who is going to retire hopefully as a Steeler and WILL lead us to victory again! :tt:

iloveben7
12-01-2008, 04:23 PM
Something else you have to keep in mind as well is that Ben is still pretty young and last season had his best at least stats wise, and has a Superbowl right. True not the best QB, not the best stats, but he is our franchise QB who is going to retire hopefully as a Steeler and WILL lead us to victory again! :tt:

Exactly. His 5th season isn't even over yet. and to change your last sentence: but he is our franchise QB who is going to retire as a Steeler and WILL lead us to victory again!

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Thanks, but nowhere did I mention that I live in PA and in fact don't. I have watched Eli and the G, and have seen the struggles and progression in the past 4 years. He is now making better decisions, smart decisions and good throws when he has to.

IMO, Ben is that QB that can lead you to a come from behind win and also dig you into a hole by taking chances and questionable decisions. Manning is a guy that is learning to not beat himself, rely on the team and make the throws where he has to. Two completely different QB's, but both with great arm strength, NFL experience and a Lombardi trophy.

My mistake for assuming you lived in PA.

Eli is what he is this season because as I said, the Giants are a completely balanced team with an elite receiver(not anymore), they dominate with the rush and pass only when neccessary or to just keep the oppenents defense honest (The way the Steelers used to be). As I said, there are probably 16 QB's in the league who would be 11-1 or at worst 10-2 with this Giants team and Jason Cambell is included in my opinion whether you agree or not, maybe he would be 9-3 instead of 10-2 or 11-1.

Ben on the other hand is on a horribly unbalanced team with no consistency, identity or fluidity on offense. Ben is being forced to win games with offensive UTILITIES, not offensive WEAPONS. If Eli was on this Pittsburgh team, his numbers would look just like they did every year before this one, if not worse, and as you know those numbers are disgusting. And that is IF Eli would have survived all the hits that Ben has survived. But having watched Eli from the beginning, he would rather thrown an interception then get hit, which wouldn't do us much good.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 05:14 PM
NYC, you assume too much. Eli would probably not have as many sacks, because he would get rid of the ball quicker than Ben. He also would probably do better than Ben in a Bruce Arians offense that utilized more 4 and 5WR sets like Arians did in Cleveland with Kelly Holcombe.

With the injuries and more of a committment to a running game, without the use of a true FB and a depleated O line, Manning would probably struggle more now than Ben is. Ben's ability to scramble is gaining him yardage, and sometimes getting him sacked for loss or causing an INT.....Manning would likely throw it away, goto the next play and allow the defense to get the ball back.

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 06:13 PM
NYC, you assume too much. Eli would probably not have as many sacks, because he would get rid of the ball quicker than Ben. He also would probably do better than Ben in a Bruce Arians offense that utilized more 4 and 5WR sets like Arians did in Cleveland with Kelly Holcombe.

With the injuries and more of a committment to a running game, without the use of a true FB and a depleated O line, Manning would probably struggle more now than Ben is. Ben's ability to scramble is gaining him yardage, and sometimes getting him sacked for loss or causing an INT.....Manning would likely throw it away, goto the next play and allow the defense to get the ball back.

If I assume too much then you watch ESPN too much, which has brought you to your praise for a sub-average QB with a Superbowl ring ala Trent Dilfer.

Manning- 1217 completions and 2176 attempts
Ben- 1116 completions and 1779 attempts

Manning- 55.9 Cmp%
Ben- 62.7 Cmp%

Manning- 6.4 yards per attempt
Ben- 7.9 yards per attempt

Manning- 14,009 yards
Ben- 14,085 yards

Manning- 96 TD's and 72 INT's
Ben- 97 TD's and 66 INT's

Manning- 76.4 QB rating
Ben- 90.1 QB rating

Not a single statistical category is Manning better than Roethlisberger. When one player is better than another player in every single statistical category, you can't even say something like, "stats don't tell the whole story" or "stats don't mean everything". Especially since both of these 2 have a Superbowl ring. The only person who can make a what they think is a legitimate or reasonable argument for Eli Manning being better than Ben Roethlisberger is a biased and subjective Eli Manning or Giants fan.

Note that I didn't include rushing stats which Roethlisberger also leads Eli in all categories as well.

cubanstogie
12-01-2008, 08:04 PM
If I assume too much then you watch ESPN too much, which has brought you to your praise for a sub-average QB with a Superbowl ring ala Trent Dilfer.

Manning- 1217 completions and 2176 attempts
Ben- 1116 completions and 1779 attempts

Manning- 55.9 Cmp%
Ben- 62.7 Cmp%

Manning- 6.4 yards per attempt
Ben- 7.9 yards per attempt

Manning- 14,009 yards
Ben- 14,085 yards

Manning- 96 TD's and 72 INT's
Ben- 97 TD's and 66 INT's

Manning- 76.4 QB rating
Ben- 90.1 QB rating

Not a single statistical category is Manning better than Roethlisberger. When one player is better than another player in every single statistical category, you can't even say something like, "stats don't tell the whole story" or "stats don't mean everything". Especially since both of these 2 have a Superbowl ring. The only person who can make a what they think is a legitimate or reasonable argument for Eli Manning being better than Ben Roethlisberger is a biased and subjective Eli Manning or Giants fan.

Note that I didn't include rushing stats which Roethlisberger also leads Eli in all categories as well.

I agree Ben better, Eli seems to have the momentum from second half of last year and this year so people are jumping on his bandwagon. I think Eli deserves praise finally though because he was bashed so bad initially and called a bust.

stillers4me
12-01-2008, 08:06 PM
I think Eli deserves praise finally though because he was bashed so bad initially and called a bust.

I still call him Opie. :wink02:

LambertIsGod58
12-02-2008, 12:10 AM
If I assume too much then you watch ESPN too much, which has brought you to your praise for a sub-average QB with a Superbowl ring ala Trent Dilfer.

Manning- 1217 completions and 2176 attempts
Ben- 1116 completions and 1779 attempts

Manning- 55.9 Cmp%
Ben- 62.7 Cmp%

Manning- 6.4 yards per attempt
Ben- 7.9 yards per attempt

Manning- 14,009 yards
Ben- 14,085 yards

Manning- 96 TD's and 72 INT's
Ben- 97 TD's and 66 INT's

Manning- 76.4 QB rating
Ben- 90.1 QB rating

Not a single statistical category is Manning better than Roethlisberger. When one player is better than another player in every single statistical category, you can't even say something like, "stats don't tell the whole story" or "stats don't mean everything". Especially since both of these 2 have a Superbowl ring. The only person who can make a what they think is a legitimate or reasonable argument for Eli Manning being better than Ben Roethlisberger is a biased and subjective Eli Manning or Giants fan.

Note that I didn't include rushing stats which Roethlisberger also leads Eli in all categories as well.


That's correct....Ben even leads in getting sacked!!! But that was left out. And I'd also point out that Eli is outplaying Ben this year. I know that the post is geared toward the first 5 years.