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View Full Version : I know we won....but..


DACEB
12-01-2008, 08:52 AM
Once again, I have to complain about the play-calling.

This happened several times yesterday, so hear me out. Why is it that the offense is moving the ball well, running on 1st down and leaving us with a 2nd and 5, and we inexplicably go into 5 wide empty backfield. WTF!! Nothing like telling the defense your going to throw, when there is absolutely no need to. Nothing like just letting the defense unleash on your (already injured) QB. Once again, WTF!! What's wrong with going singleback 3WR, and running playaction?

I still see random playcalling, without ever trying to set the defense up for something later in the game. I would also like to point out that we don't use the 3WR sets enough. The first run of the game came from the 3WR set, and it was for a big gain. We run pretty well from the 3WR sets, consistently.

The other reason I'm pushing the 3WR set, is because Nate Washington is good and fast. He is consistently getting behind defenses. This guy could be our Alvin Harper. I would run more 3WR sets and send Nate long on the majority of pass plays. We have the playmakers for it on offense. Ward and Miller are the possession guys, with Holmes having breakaway potential to go along with Nates deep routes. This would put all defenses back on their heels. This would open up running lanes.

I just think that we could set the defenses up, much more consistently, running our offense out of the 3WR set. The key word to me here is, CONSISTENT. I just don't see any consistency with our offense. Just imagine how good we could be, if our offense was more consistent. How much better would our defense be if our offense could consistently sustain long drives?

Between the 3WR sets, and the bunch sets, we could run so many plays with the talent we have at WR and TE and RB, that defenses would be dizzy. Let's make it easier for Ben and the offense, and set things up!

Fire Haley
12-01-2008, 09:19 AM
We're saving the good stuff in our secret playoffs package notebook.

Now stop whining and enjoy the win.

BozMan
12-01-2008, 09:22 AM
I didn't like that we passed so much on 3rd and short situations.

And, of course, the red zone/goal line offense leaves something to be desired.

Steelerfreak58
12-01-2008, 09:22 AM
Our Defense won that game for us plain and simple. The offense did just enough to not lose it once again.

I will take a win against the Pats any day of the week but I definitely see what teh OP is talking about.

The_WARDen
12-01-2008, 09:34 AM
Here I was all excited over finally beating those Cheating frauds...

:noidea:

LambertIsGod58
12-01-2008, 09:46 AM
The offense put up points...although most of it was a result of the defense putting them into position.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 09:51 AM
A 35-minute TOP and a 3 TD+ margin of victory on the road = the offense "doing just enough not to lose a game?" Whatever. :coffee:

devilsdancefloor
12-01-2008, 10:05 AM
Our Defense won that game for us plain and simple. The offense did just enough to not lose it once again.

I will take a win against the Pats any day of the week but I definitely see what teh OP is talking about.

Are you sure you watch the same game? you didnt watch a game you had recorded? we scored 33 points that isnt just doing enough to win that is doing enough to crush the pretenders! :tt03:

TerribleSteelyMcBeam
12-01-2008, 10:05 AM
yes 5wr means we are telling the defense we are gonna throw,

we are also telling them to back off the line and fear the throw, hence making the pass more effective.


i really dont know why you are complaining at all.

X-Terminator
12-01-2008, 10:18 AM
A 35-minute TOP and a 3 TD+ margin of victory on the road = the offense "doing just enough not to lose a game?" Whatever. :coffee:

Some people are just never happy no matter what the team does. It's as sure as the sun coming up in the morning.

As for the OP, I do agree that we run too many empty sets in those situations - I never like telegraphing plays, especially pass plays. But one advantage is that you are able to throw quick passes more effectively since the D can't cover everyone. Someone is usually left open almost all the time, even if it's in the flat. That could be the explanation as to why Arians does it, but I'm still not a fan of it. I'd rather stick with the 3WR or the bunch formation (not a big fan of that either) to give yourself a run-pass option.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 10:21 AM
A couple things.

-on 2nd and 5 showing a RB, then moving him out to a side, spreads out the defenders and in all likelyhood....catches the Pats with the wrong personell on the field.

- I too dont like passing on 3rd and short, but with no true FB, a weak OG in Stapleton and an inconsistent OG in Kemo.....its probably the best. We knew it was Arians M.O. when he came here and its the reality

-all in all, against a team that was 18-1 last season that returned a lot of the same defense.....the Steelers O controlled the ball well. I think its our best win of the season.

steelpride12
12-01-2008, 10:30 AM
Pretty sure our offense score 33 points. 35 min. time of possession. The run the pass, and play action all working out. What game where you watching?

DACEB
12-01-2008, 10:34 AM
yes 5wr means we are telling the defense we are gonna throw,

we are also telling them to back off the line and fear the throw, hence making the pass more effective.

i really dont know why you are complaining at all.

Back off the line??? Is that what happened in the Eagles game? Wouldn't the pass be more effective if the defense had to defend the run as well?

I'm not complaining, just pointing out something that, IMO, is completely absurd. There is, in my mind, no logical reasoning behind going 5 wide in those situations. That is my point. The weather conditions in the game further justify my point.

The fact of the matter is, we could do/be better. I'd simply like to see a gameplan that first off, attacks an opponents weaknesses and second, sets up the defense for play-action passing. At this juncture, I'd say we don't do either very well.

Am I missing something, or does this team not have an extremely great oppurtunity to win another Superbowl with this defense. Let's go O, let's see some consistency.

DACEB
12-01-2008, 10:37 AM
We're saving the good stuff in our secret playoffs package notebook.

Now stop whining and enjoy the win.

Oh, I'm enjoying it, I live in Mass. I'm enjoying it, people aren't enjoying me today!

revefsreleets
12-01-2008, 10:50 AM
Don't like the playcalling?

Blame Ben. He's calling about 2/3rds of his own plays now.

DACEB
12-01-2008, 10:53 AM
As for the OP, I do agree that we run too many empty sets in those situations - I never like telegraphing plays, especially pass plays. But one advantage is that you are able to throw quick passes more effectively since the D can't cover everyone. Someone is usually left open almost all the time, even if it's in the flat. That could be the explanation as to why Arians does it, but I'm still not a fan of it. I'd rather stick with the 3WR or the bunch formation (not a big fan of that either) to give yourself a run-pass option.

I can really hate on the bunch formations, but probably because we run them so often. I do believe we have the personell to run the bunch well, with the TEs we have especially. And we do run alot of plays very well thru the bunch.

I agree, and to my point, that those two formations give us the best pass-run options. Those type of options are exactly what will set the defense up later in the game.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 10:53 AM
I didn't address the OP before, but I have to say I agree completely with the argument against the 5-wide - why tip our hand as to whether we're going to pass on a particular play? OTOH, I think overall our offense is beginning to execute better - night and day difference between now and about a month ago, IMO.

OneForTheToe
12-01-2008, 11:02 AM
News flash from the Accosiated Press:

Breaking News story just in:

Datline Pittsburgh:

STEELERS ARE 9-3

FANS STILL NOT HAPPY

Stay tuned for continuing coverage of this breaking story.

SteelCityMan786
12-01-2008, 11:04 AM
Relax folks. We're saving the good stuff for the Post-season.

DACEB
12-01-2008, 11:08 AM
Don't like the playcalling?

Blame Ben. He's calling about 2/3rds of his own plays now.

You caught that whole conversation about Ben calling the majority of plays? That was interesting. It bodes well for the future that Ben is that involved.

What bothered me about that was the comment Ben had (conveyed by Dierdorf) about Arians being quiet for 4 - 5 plays. WTF!! I get that Ben's calling the plays, but quiet. Does he mean quiet, as in, nothing said at all? If that's the case there's a serious problem. Put Arians in the booth, so he can tell his QB what the D is trying to do to him.

revefsreleets
12-01-2008, 11:08 AM
You know, Ben could/should run some out of that 5 wide.

DACEB
12-01-2008, 11:19 AM
I didn't address the OP before, but I have to say I agree completely with the argument against the 5-wide - why tip our hand as to whether we're going to pass on a particular play? OTOH, I think overall our offense is beginning to execute better - night and day difference between now and about a month ago, IMO.

Things sure do seem to be coming together at the right time. We are playing much better on O, with Ben and the play-calling having alot to do with that.

We can do better, it's time for some rings on the other hand!

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 11:25 AM
Don't like the playcalling?

Blame Ben. He's calling about 2/3rds of his own plays now.

Did Ben tell you this over dinner, Tomlin while watching the Thanksgiving Day games or Arians during your golf game? You think they would ever tell you the truth of who is calling what and what percentage of the time?

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 11:43 AM
A 35-minute TOP and a 3 TD+ margin of victory on the road = the offense "doing just enough not to lose a game?" Whatever. :coffee:

Are you sure you watch the same game? you didnt watch a game you had recorded? we scored 33 points that isnt just doing enough to win that is doing enough to crush the pretenders! :tt03:

Pretty sure our offense score 33 points. 35 min. time of possession. The run the pass, and play action all working out. What game where you watching?

35 minute time of possesion cause the defense literally took the ball away from the Patriots offense nearly every time they had it and handed it right back to our offense. And we scored 17 points as a direct result of being given the ball in the Patriots territory on 4 different occasions, twice in the Patriots red zone. I won't count the 3 points we got from Polamalu's interception since we ended up with the ball on our own 34. Lets not all get out of hand with praise for the offense just yet. I definitely agree with the OP, the play-calling is still suspect and I'm not sure how I feel about Moore and Parker spliting EQUAL carries. I don't think the WR set is so much the problem as is the utilization of our rush scheme or lack there of I should say. 22nd in the league in the rush is pretty unacceptable and is nearly a full blown weakness of this team, not just a problem.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 12:35 PM
35 minute time of possesion cause the defense literally took the ball away from the Patriots offense nearly every time they had it and handed it right back to our offense.

Be that as it may, you don't rack up a TOP of 35+ minutes by constantly going 3-and-out. It just doesn't happen. Like I said, the offense has been showing improvement and I hope it continues and we're playing our best football in January (and hopefully February).

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 12:39 PM
You know, Ben could/should run some out of that 5 wide.

With his shoulder better, maybe.

I bet Arians could draw up a nice little delayed "guard pull right" for Kemo out of that 5 wide with Ben right behind him. :smile:

lilyoder6
12-01-2008, 12:56 PM
not evry play that they call is going 2 work... and obv.. the play-calling was good enough 2 get us 33 points

NYC SteelersFan
12-01-2008, 01:15 PM
Be that as it may, you don't rack up a TOP of 35+ minutes by constantly going 3-and-out. It just doesn't happen. Like I said, the offense has been showing improvement and I hope it continues and we're playing our best football in January (and hopefully February).

Agreed.

steelpride12
12-01-2008, 01:15 PM
Play calling is getting Better and Ben calling his owns plays help as well.
Sure our defense was getting turnovers, but to rack up 35 min TOP you still have to have some consistent drives and move the chains.

OneForTheToe
12-01-2008, 02:34 PM
The only problem I have with five wide set is with who is on the field. Keeping Miller in a five wide set is not a problem, but what about Memo? To me he needs to be on the field for the check down. At this point memo bings more to the table than does Sweed.

fansince'76
12-01-2008, 02:36 PM
At this point memo bings more to the table than does Sweed.

What?!?!? MeMo brings more to the table than SWEEEEEEEEEED? Blasphemy! :chuckle:

steelpride12
12-01-2008, 03:15 PM
What?!?!? MeMo brings more to the table than SWEEEEEEEEEED? Blasphemy! :chuckle:

I smite every person who brings up the name Sweed because of you! :chuckle:

MJ5150
12-01-2008, 04:32 PM
I really don't like Arians, and would never miss a chance to bust on him. I watched the game, went over the highlights a few times again this afternoon.

As much as I want to, I just can't bust on Arians today. I can't at least without sounding like an ungrateful complainer.

Nice work this week Mr. Arians.

-Mike

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-01-2008, 05:03 PM
I really don't like Arians, and would never miss a chance to bust on him. I watched the game, went over the highlights a few times again this afternoon.

As much as I want to, I just can't bust on Arians today. I can't at least without sounding like an ungrateful complainer.

Nice work this week Mr. Arians.

-Mike :jawdrop:

I bet you could if you tried. :wave:

Steeldude
12-01-2008, 09:07 PM
Ben played tons of calls all on his own because Bruce Arians let him.

i believe you are referring to the no-huddle. it's reported that BR calls around 50% of the plays in the no-huddle.

Preacher
12-02-2008, 03:07 AM
A 35-minute TOP and a 3 TD+ margin of victory on the road = the offense "doing just enough not to lose a game?" Whatever. :coffee:

:laughing:

I gotta admit, I didn't like the fact we couldn't put the nail in the coffin until our offense got the ball on the 1 yard line thanks to Timmons not spending enough time on the cardio machine :chuckle:.

However, I have been saying this, and will CONTINUE to say it. What you are seeing is a process by which this offense is coming together. Think back to the Washington game. There has been marked improvements in just about every game since. Frankly, I want them to just start really hitting their stride in the game against the Ravens. After all, if everything works out right, we still have a little over 2 months of football left. Now is the right time to start peaking.

BTW. . . if you are not seeing consistent play calling. . . GOOD. If you can't guess what is coming, then the D-coordinators of the other teams may be having problems too. I kinda think that is the point.

DACEB
12-02-2008, 06:06 AM
Don't like the playcalling?

Blame Ben. He's calling about 2/3rds of his own plays now.

That may be true, but Ben doesn't change the personell on the field. That absolutely comes from the OC.

DACEB
12-02-2008, 06:15 AM
However, I have been saying this, and will CONTINUE to say it. What you are seeing is a process by which this offense is coming together. Think back to the Washington game. There has been marked improvements in just about every game since. Frankly, I want them to just start really hitting their stride in the game against the Ravens. After all, if everything works out right, we still have a little over 2 months of football left. Now is the right time to start peaking.

Absolutely, there has definetly been a marked improvement in the offense. Bens taken less of a beating mainly due to the play-calling. And the offense seems to be coming together at exactly the right time. You could also argue that we are preparing for different scenerios, with the different formations.

I won't argue that the play-calling has been significantly better, it has been. The whole 5wide thing just seemed out of place, in timing and conditions. This wasn't the first game I've noticed it, after a good run on 1st down. It stood out more to me because of the weather conditions.

DACEB
12-02-2008, 06:19 AM
BTW. . . if you are not seeing consistent play calling. . . GOOD. If you can't guess what is coming, then the D-coordinators of the other teams may be having problems too. I kinda think that is the point.

Good point Preach!

revefsreleets
12-02-2008, 10:56 AM
Did Ben tell you this over dinner, Tomlin while watching the Thanksgiving Day games or Arians during your golf game? You think they would ever tell you the truth of who is calling what and what percentage of the time?

That's cute. Thanks for contributing...

Being a jackass in no way changes the fact that he is calling a lot of his own plays. Nor does it make you less wrong.

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 01:12 PM
That's cute. Thanks for contributing...

Being a jackass in no way changes the fact that he is calling a lot of his own plays. Nor does it make you less wrong.

Jackass or not, you still have no way of actually knowing for sure who calls what what precentage of the time. It's pure speculation on your part based on what you're TOLD, not KNOW for a fact, yet you speak of it here as if you do KNOW for a fact when you actually don't.

fansince'76
12-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Being a jackass in no way changes the fact that he is calling a lot of his own plays. Nor does it make you less wrong.

Please cool it with the namecalling.

eafratitpm3
12-02-2008, 05:29 PM
IMO when you have 5 turnovers in a game in the situations that we got them, the game should have been out of reach much earlier than it was. Getting FG's in the red zone, more importantly within the 5 yd line will kill a team in the playoffs. When you have it that close a TD is a must. The O looked great until it got close to the goal line. I never understand why when you are that close to the end zone you drop your QB back 5-7 steps, the QB should be getting the ball and throwing it quick. It drives me nuts to see Ben take a 5-7 step drop and then run around and throw it away.

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 06:20 PM
IMO when you have 5 turnovers in a game in the situations that we got them, the game should have been out of reach much earlier than it was. Getting FG's in the red zone, more importantly within the 5 yd line will kill a team in the playoffs. When you have it that close a TD is a must. The O looked great until it got close to the goal line. I never understand why when you are that close to the end zone you drop your QB back 5-7 steps, the QB should be getting the ball and throwing it quick. It drives me nuts to see Ben take a 5-7 step drop and then run around and throw it away.

completely agree with the first part of your post. That game should've been over much sooner than it was. We scored 17 points off of 4 turnovers, 2 in the Patriots red zone. It should've been more, but it was a start. Maybe they're finally coming together a bit offensively, we'll see what happens this week.

fansince'76
12-02-2008, 10:13 PM
With our defense playing the way it is, 33 points is more than enough to win against anybody.

lilyoder6
12-02-2008, 10:14 PM
if our def plays like it is right now.. fg are going to be good enough for us

revefsreleets
12-03-2008, 08:14 AM
I think, in this case, jackassery is not so much a name as it is a state of mind.

The POINT is that Ben is calling his own plays, which denotes a HUGE amount of trust and respect between him and Arians. Be it 25% or 75%, the FACT is that our QB is comfortable with our OC. So is our HC and FO. The highly dubious and questionable opinions of some ham-n-eggers posting on a message board has less than no bearing at all on the reality.

But some people love to self grandize and pontificate, and, after all, why not? Second guessing through hindsight is the easiest thing to do in the World.

The_WARDen
12-03-2008, 08:37 AM
IMO when you have 5 turnovers in a game in the situations that we got them, the game should have been out of reach much earlier than it was. Getting FG's in the red zone, more importantly within the 5 yd line will kill a team in the playoffs. When you have it that close a TD is a must. The O looked great until it got close to the goal line. I never understand why when you are that close to the end zone you drop your QB back 5-7 steps, the QB should be getting the ball and throwing it quick. It drives me nuts to see Ben take a 5-7 step drop and then run around and throw it away.

didn't the majority of the turnovers occur later in the game and that's when they did put them away.

I think they were up 17-10 when the barrage began and that was after Ben gave them a quick 7 to start the game.

That team they played wasn't chopped liver ya know...it's not like they were playing the Bungles.

eafratitpm3
12-03-2008, 09:14 AM
Just MO, apparently if you go to the Steelers Website today and read what Tomlin says he also aggrees with me. I'm not here to bash the Steelers but just stating facts about the game. Another opinion but if this offense can get rolling and be consistent there's no one in the league that can play with the Steelers this year.

didn't the majority of the turnovers occur later in the game and that's when they did put them away.

I think they were up 17-10 when the barrage began and that was after Ben gave them a quick 7 to start the game.

That team they played wasn't chopped liver ya know...it's not like they were playing the Bungles.

The_WARDen
12-03-2008, 09:55 AM
Just MO, apparently if you go to the Steelers Website today and read what Tomlin says he also aggrees with me. I'm not here to bash the Steelers but just stating facts about the game. Another opinion but if this offense can get rolling and be consistent there's no one in the league that can play with the Steelers this year.


IMO, this team has 27 & 33 points in the past 2 games since going through the slump. If this team can get anywhere near 30 PPG on average, they will be unbeatable with that defense.

I also don't care how they get to 30 PPG, 10 Fgs works just fine.

DACEB
12-03-2008, 10:09 AM
Just MO, apparently if you go to the Steelers Website today and read what Tomlin says he also aggrees with me. I'm not here to bash the Steelers but just stating facts about the game. Another opinion but if this offense can get rolling and be consistent there's no one in the league that can play with the Steelers this year.

Good post! That's pretty much sums it up (in bold).

This team can win the superbowl!

filthyfan
12-03-2008, 12:02 PM
...SteelrFreak....I beg to differ....with all due respect
Our O put up over 150 yards of rushing...I was at the game....
What I saw was an offensive line that was blowing open some great holes for FWP and Mewelde...and doing a good job protecting our QB. My seats were near the endzone where Berger threw both TD's....those throws were perfectly placed in very poor weather.
Overall if you look at what our O has been doing the last 3 weeks you have to be happy....they're begining to gel...especially the O-line...very good news.....and very good timing... Filthyfan

DACEB
12-03-2008, 12:19 PM
...SteelrFreak....I beg to differ....with all due respect
Our O put up over 150 yards of rushing...I was at the game....
What I saw was an offensive line that was blowing open some great holes for FWP and Mewelde...and doing a good job protecting our QB. My seats were near the endzone where Berger threw both TD's....those throws were perfectly placed in very poor weather.
Overall if you look at what our O has been doing the last 3 weeks you have to be happy....they're begining to gel...especially the O-line...very good news.....and very good timing... Filthyfan

Exactly the point, why after a 5yd gain on 1st down (running the ball), do you go 5wide in crappy weather.

I'm extremely happy the O is beginning to gel. I'm looking forward to a good effort this week also. The Cowboys secondary is weak and the D-line, while desruptive, is on the small side. And as Gonzo has pointed out, the line has played well against 3-4s.

revefsreleets
12-03-2008, 02:25 PM
I'll tell you why: Because it makes the offense unpredictable. If we had an offensive line that was superior at both run and pass blocking we may not need to resort to sleight of hand, but as things stand, not so much.

How do you get the run game going without a dominant line? Pass a little more. How do you get the pass game going if you're having trouble buying time for the QB? Run a little more. How do you do either without a great line? Obfuscate what your intentions are by passing out of run formations and running out of pass formations.

I, for one, am not a big fan of just selling out by lining up our fat guys versus theirs and running right into the teeth of their defense, especially while lacking a monster power back like Bettis...

The_WARDen
12-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Exactly the point, why after a 5yd gain on 1st down (running the ball), do you go 5wide in crappy weather.

I'm extremely happy the O is beginning to gel. I'm looking forward to a good effort this week also. The Cowboys secondary is weak and the D-line, while desruptive, is on the small side. And as Gonzo has pointed out, the line has played well against 3-4s.

I actually don't mind passing in crappy weather...Ben seems to handle it okay and I think it gives the receivers a slight edge being that they know where they're going.

They shouldn't make a living off of it, but I think they can have success throwing in bad weather...heck it's Pittsburgh, they better be able to throw in crappy weather!

:helmet:

lilyoder6
12-03-2008, 04:16 PM
u can't let the weather dictact what u are going to do on off.. if u let the weather control ur off and u only run the ball the opp is def gonna stack the box..

DACEB
12-04-2008, 06:16 AM
u can't let the weather dictact what u are going to do on off.. if u let the weather control ur off and u only run the ball the opp is def gonna stack the box..

That's when you play-action pass! I'm not saying to let weather dictate, I believe my thoughts on that are practical and understood.

Obfuscate what your intentions are by passing out of run formations and running out of pass formations.

That's the point revs, you can't do that 5wide.

I, for one, am not a big fan of just selling out by lining up our fat guys versus theirs and running right into the teeth of their defense, especially while lacking a monster power back like Bettis...

Agreed revs, That's why I like the 3WR sets. That let's us have more threats on the field. The threat of the run, the TE, and the D is more spread out also having to defend deep.

revefsreleets
12-04-2008, 09:57 AM
I have pointed this out before, but it bears repeating: We should have a QB option in rotation for the 5 wide set. If we spread the D, let Ben take off where the pass rush ain't. I'd much rather have him in control and able to slide than taking blinsided shots. If he runs that a couple times a game, it forces the D to adjust and compenstae, and should create either 1 less pass rusher or a hole downfield.

Dino 6 Rings
12-04-2008, 12:14 PM
When I watched the Replay of this game on the NFL network (which in itself amazed me that they showed this game) I caught Farrior on the sidelines after we went up 23-10 saying "Is that enough points to win, yes it is, that's enough points"

Our Defense is so confident that all they want is 23 points and they believe they can stop anyone else from scoring more. Sure, the Colts and Giants did about that and we lost but there were lots of mistakes made in both those games on both sides of the ball that really could have been wins. They were very close games. No one can "beat us down" and the Eagles game, shiver...play that game 10 times and we win it 9, I'm confident of that.

anyway, Our D believes that we only need 23 to win against the Pats. That's freaking Confidence.