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lamberts-lost-tooth
12-02-2008, 06:12 AM
O-line rains on Pats, lack of credit
By John Harris
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Given the chance to brag about his much-maligned ground game that churned out 161 yards in Sunday's 23-point win at New England, Steelers coach Mike Tomlin elected not to take the high road.

"We still can't run it," Tomlin said sarcastically in response to a reporter's question. "That's what you guys will write anyway."

From their coach on down the line, the Steelers are taking it all personally.

You couldn't blame them after the offensive line manhandled the Patriots' front seven, after a revitalized Willie Parker averaged 5.4 yards on 16 carries, after quarterback Ben Roethlisberger received sufficient time to pick out his receivers while being sacked only once.

If the starters on the offensive line played as though they believed they had something to prove against New England, they certainly had their reasons.

"We understand what we have," right tackle Willie Colon said. "Despite what everybody wants to say about us and what they think, the only thing that counts is what we think in that locker room."

What the offensive linemen think is that they have played better than what they've been given credit. In fact, some of them are agitated that it took so long for their solid play to be recognized.

"We spread things out and got them into their sub defense and ran the ball"' center Justin Hartwig said following the Steelers' best rushing output since helping rack up 183 yards against Houston in the opener. "We stuck with it and had some huge gains."

Frankly, the players are tired of hearing about how bad they are. Beating up on the Patriots put the spotlight on the offensive line in a favorable light, for a change.

"This was a big game for the offensive linemen," left guard Chris Kemoeatu said. "It was the kind of game to put a statement out there that we are capable of running and passing the ball."

For Hartwig, the line's ability to control the ball and the clock against New England could result in winning over offensive coordinator Bruce Arians to call more rushing plays.

"We have leaned a little bit more on the pass. We have to be able to run it when we get those opportunities," said Hartwig, one of four new starters along with Kemoeatu, left tackle Max Starks and right guard Darnell Stapleton. "We want to instill confidence in our coordinator to dial up those running plays."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_600995.html

Steelers & I
12-02-2008, 06:30 AM
"We want to instill confidence in our coordinator to dial up those running plays"



Good luck with that. This offensive coordinator is a "PASS HAPPY S.O.B."

stillers4me
12-02-2008, 07:14 AM
Well, well, well. what have we here?

The nobody believes is us but us attitude with the playoffs looming ahead.

Sweeeeeeeet! :tt03:

Steel_Bus_24
12-02-2008, 08:34 AM
People need to keep chewing their butts off, because we still lack power in goalline situations

Steeldude
12-02-2008, 08:49 AM
when the O-line starts showing some positive consistency, let me know.

Fire Haley
12-02-2008, 09:01 AM
Just so long as they don't all get the swolled heads and think they're invincible now and go back to the 7-step drop, double move, pump fake offense that will get us killed.

I'm thinking of you, Ben.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-02-2008, 11:44 AM
What the offensive linemen think is that they have played better than what they've been given credit. In fact, some of them are agitated that it took so long for their solid play to be recognized.



Exactly!! The media and fans have just been dumping on them because teams were blitzing a ton and getting sacks. It's like those that think Ike Taylor isnt playing well because of his lack of INT's.

Nobody is giving Colon recognition for a really great game against the Patriots. Also, they believe that Stapleton is playing really well, but if you really watch him on film, you see that he is the weakest link on the O-line.

Perception is reality, but its not always the truth.

revefsreleets
12-02-2008, 12:23 PM
"We want to instill confidence in our coordinator to dial up those running plays"



Good luck with that. This offensive coordinator is a "PASS HAPPY S.O.B."

Please don't a little thing like facts and figures stand in the way of your completely biased, not to mention flat out wrong, opinion.

In 2008 we have run:
346 rushing plays
367 passing plays

I think I'd call that balance...

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 01:15 PM
Please don't a little thing like facts and figures stand in the way of your completely biased, not to mention flat out wrong, opinion.

In 2008 we have run:
346 rushing plays
367 passing plays

I think I'd call that balance...

Check how many of those rush plays were called in the 4th quarter and near the end of the game when we had already basically won and were just running the clock out.

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 01:26 PM
Exactly!! The media and fans have just been dumping on them because teams were blitzing a ton and getting sacks. It's like those that think Ike Taylor isnt playing well because of his lack of INT's.

Nobody is giving Colon recognition for a really great game against the Patriots. Also, they believe that Stapleton is playing really well, but if you really watch him on film, you see that he is the weakest link on the O-line.

Perception is reality, but its not always the truth.

Colon made a worthless penalty that negated the Washington TD in the Giants game but now he wants recognition for a great game against the Patriots?

I'll tell you what Willie, there are 4 games left, if you don't #$%^ up any of those games with miserable penalties and we win 3 out of 4 of them without Roethlisberger getting killed and with a decent rushing game, I'll give you your credit.

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 01:27 PM
People need to keep chewing their butts off, because we still lack power in goalline situations

No longer just a problem, it is now a full blown weakness of the team.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-02-2008, 01:33 PM
Colon made a worthless penalty that negated the Washington TD in the Giants game but now he wants recognition for a great game against the Patriots?

I'll tell you what Willie, there are 4 games left, if you don't #$%^ up any of those games with miserable penalties and we win 3 out of 4 of them without Roethlisberger getting killed and with a decent rushing game, I'll give you your credit.

Most penalties are worthless, but what you are saying is making my point. I rewatch each Steeler game the day after and Colon is a dominating run blocker, that last game handled the rushers OK, but receives no recognition. He routinely false starts in passing situations because the speed rushers beat him because of his short arms. He is jumping offside or holding because he is probably a guard that is playing RT.

BTW, I dont think Colon is looking for any recognition. I think the entire line, Ben and offensive coaches think the O-line has taken undue criticizm. They are by no means a great line, but not as bad as everybody writes or posts.

The Duke
12-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Most penalties are worthless, but what you are saying is making my point. I rewatch each Steeler game the day after and Colon is a dominating run blocker, that last game handled the rushers OK, but receives no recognition. He routinely false starts in passing situations because the speed rushers beat him because of his short arms. He is jumping offside or holding because he is probably a guard that is playing RT.



He really is

Which leads me to believe he could be a decent guard

If kemo leaves ( either simmons or stapleton will stay at RG) Colon could be used at LG imo

They have to get better tackles in the draft though....

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-02-2008, 01:38 PM
No longer just a problem, it is now a full blown weakness of the team.

This weakness of not having a short yardage offense is what I feared. Here is an article on the 2004 Browns season preview that mentions the '03 Browns offense (under Arians) had similar problems.

new offensive coordinator Terry Robiskie has no intention of adopting the West Coast Offense or any other pass-happy scheme. Robiskie and Davis want to run the ball down the throats of opponents, and they may finally have the players in place to win on the ground. The tandem of Lee Suggs and William Green have looked impressive and the offensive line has shown the ability to open holes on the left, middle, or right. The Browns will have a legitimate fullback for the first time in the expansion era, as Terrelle Smith will look to help the team convert the short-yardage and goal-line situations that were the bane of the team's existence in 2003.

http://det.scout.com/a.z?s=93&p=2&c=292767

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-02-2008, 01:44 PM
He really is

Which leads me to believe he could be a decent guard

If kemo leaves ( either simmons or stapleton will stay at RG) Colon could be used at LG imo

They have to get better tackles in the draft though....
I believe that Colon would be a much better guard. I think that it gives flexibility that if Alex Mack is still on the board, the Steelers can pick him and look to use an interior line of Hartwig, Mack, Colon (with rehabilitating Simmons and Stapleton as backup).

Then I expect them to re-sign Starks(I dont personally like the move) and sign a 2nd level FA like Stinchcomb or St. Clair as a vet tackle and go with Hills and a rookie OT in reserve.

OX1947
12-02-2008, 01:52 PM
Little by little they are improving. Pats front four are pretty darn good and Ben hardly got touched in the game. Now they need to try and fix this one yard issue they have had. Hopefully by playoff time, they will have meshed completely and make a 3 game season run with a title.

revefsreleets
12-02-2008, 01:55 PM
Check how many of those rush plays were called in the 4th quarter and near the end of the game when we had already basically won and were just running the clock out.

And that would be different from every other Steelers offense in every other year how exactly?

You haters hate, and nothing will dissuade you of that hate. Not results. Not wins. Not facts. Not even Super Bowl victories.

But it really doesn't matter because nattering nabobs of negativism have absolutely no impact on the reality,and that reality is that the Steelers are 9-3, they could easily be 11-1, and they seem to be getting better when it counts the most.

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 02:03 PM
This weakness of not having a short yardage offense is what I feared. Here is an article on the 2004 Browns season preview that mentions the '03 Browns offense (under Arians) had similar problems.

new offensive coordinator Terry Robiskie has no intention of adopting the West Coast Offense or any other pass-happy scheme. Robiskie and Davis want to run the ball down the throats of opponents, and they may finally have the players in place to win on the ground. The tandem of Lee Suggs and William Green have looked impressive and the offensive line has shown the ability to open holes on the left, middle, or right. The Browns will have a legitimate fullback for the first time in the expansion era, as Terrelle Smith will look to help the team convert the short-yardage and goal-line situations that were the bane of the team's existence in 2003.

http://det.scout.com/a.z?s=93&p=2&c=292767

lol..Lee Suggs and Willie Green, I remember when both those guys were supposed to be really good that year and the problem going into the season was splitting time between 2 really good backs. They did absolutely nothing. You go to love football analysts.

The short-yardage rush offense is a major weakness, the root of the weakness may not be major but the weakness itself certainly is. It seems opposing defense's are now counting on stopping us on 3rd or 4th and 2 or less and when we are on the goal line whereas before, opposing teams defense's were terrified to get into those situations with the Steelers.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-02-2008, 02:45 PM
You haters hate, and nothing will dissuade you of that hate. Not results. Not wins. Not facts. Not even Super Bowl victories.
.

Hey Rev, I dont consider myself a hater (a Carey Davis hater maybe :wink:), but would you admitt the fact that Arians offenses in Cleveland struggling on short yardage and now struggling in Pittsburgh are a trend or coincidence??

I'm just asking the question, because it seems like a trend to me. Faith, optimism and loyalty are all admirable qualities, but I am just wondering if you are supporting the current offensive system without question or do wonder if the short yardage woes are based on system or players??

NYC SteelersFan
12-02-2008, 02:47 PM
And that would be different from every other Steelers offense in every other year how exactly?

You haters hate, and nothing will dissuade you of that hate. Not results. Not wins. Not facts. Not even Super Bowl victories.

But it really doesn't matter because nattering nabobs of negativism have absolutely no impact on the reality,and that reality is that the Steelers are 9-3, they could easily be 11-1, and they seem to be getting better when it counts the most.

The difference??

2007-442 pass plays 511 rush attempts 10-6
2006-523 pass plays 469 rush attempts (no Bus and no Burress) 8-8
2005-379 pass plays 549 rush attempts (the Bus splits time with Parker and no more Burress) 11-5
2004-358 pass plays 618 rush attempts (the Bus gets a tuneup and less Burress) 15-1
2003-532 pass plays 446 rush attempts (the Bus got a new alternator but was still in bad shape but we still had burress) 6-10
2002-551 pass plays 512 rush attempts (the Bus' transmission dropped and we really used Burress) 10-5-1
2001-454 pass plays 580 rush attempts (the Bus started to break down but we had Burress) 13-3
2000-439 pass plays 527 rush attempts 9-7
1999-535 pass plays 495 rush attempts 6-10

In the years we pass more. 30-33-1
In the years we rush more. 58-22

We pass the ball 3 and out on a lot of drives. On other drives we rush 2 times and pass on 3rd. We pass on 3rd and 2 or less on many occasions. The bulk of the rush plays come at the end of the game when we're winning when it used to be just a chunk of rush plays coming at the end of the game.

Really? Arians won us the Superbowl? I didn't even know he was the offensive coordinator at the time? I thought he was a wide-out coach.

Steelers & I
12-02-2008, 11:26 PM
Hey Rev, I dont consider myself a hater (a Carey Davis hater maybe :wink:), but would you admitt the fact that Arians offenses in Cleveland struggling on short yardage and now struggling in Pittsburgh are a trend or coincidence??

I'm just asking the question, because it seems like a trend to me. Faith, optimism and loyalty are all admirable qualities, but I am just wondering if you are supporting the current offensive system without question or do wonder if the short yardage woes are based on system or players??

nice post.

Steelers & I
12-02-2008, 11:29 PM
The difference??

2007-442 pass plays 511 rush attempts 10-6
2006-523 pass plays 469 rush attempts (no Bus and no Burress) 8-8
2005-379 pass plays 549 rush attempts (the Bus splits time with Parker and no more Burress) 11-5
2004-358 pass plays 618 rush attempts (the Bus gets a tuneup and less Burress) 15-1
2003-532 pass plays 446 rush attempts (the Bus got a new alternator but was still in bad shape but we still had burress) 6-10
2002-551 pass plays 512 rush attempts (the Bus' transmission dropped and we really used Burress) 10-5-1
2001-454 pass plays 580 rush attempts (the Bus started to break down but we had Burress) 13-3
2000-439 pass plays 527 rush attempts 9-7
1999-535 pass plays 495 rush attempts 6-10

In the years we pass more. 30-33-1
In the years we rush more. 58-22

We pass the ball 3 and out on a lot of drives. On other drives we rush 2 times and pass on 3rd. We pass on 3rd and 2 or less on many occasions. The bulk of the rush plays come at the end of the game when we're winning when it used to be just a chunk of rush plays coming at the end of the game.

Really? Arians won us the Superbowl? I didn't even know he was the offensive coordinator at the time? I thought he was a wide-out coach.

Thank you NYC for pointing out the obvious, some people you just can't reach.......

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/ariansbus.jpg

NYC SteelersFan
12-03-2008, 02:29 AM
Thank you NYC for pointing out the obvious, some people you just can't reach.......

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/bkakers/ariansbus.jpg

LOL...I wish our bus was even that big. Our rush offense is driving a Chrysler Town and Country right now.

augustashark
12-03-2008, 02:48 AM
As long as we are picking up W's I don't really care how we get there. Run it 40 times and win then so be it, pass is 40 times and win, just as good. It has everything to do with the talent you have anyway.

NYC SteelersFan
12-03-2008, 03:00 AM
I agree, I don't care if the offense is shanking defense's just to core, as long as we score consistently and win in the end, but lack of offensive consistency and identity catches up to you in the playoffs.

augustashark
12-03-2008, 03:05 AM
I agree, I don't care if the offense is shanking defense's just to core, as long as we score consistently and win in the end, but lack of offensive consistency and identity catches up to you in the playoffs.

Agree. The D really helps this year though. In 2000 you know who was just terrible on O but because of a great D they were able to win. I think we can both agree that our O is much better then that O was.

revefsreleets
12-03-2008, 09:24 AM
Hey Rev, I dont consider myself a hater (a Carey Davis hater maybe :wink:), but would you admitt the fact that Arians offenses in Cleveland struggling on short yardage and now struggling in Pittsburgh are a trend or coincidence??

I'm just asking the question, because it seems like a trend to me. Faith, optimism and loyalty are all admirable qualities, but I am just wondering if you are supporting the current offensive system without question or do wonder if the short yardage woes are based on system or players??

Common denominator: Mediocre to poor offensive lines

OC doesn't draft or select FA lineman.

MasterOfPuppets
12-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Common denominator: Mediocre to poor offensive lines

OC doesn't draft or select FA lineman.
GOOD ANSWER......this group can't even hold the point of attack, let alone push defenders backwords to guarantee a yard.i have yet to see arians on the field being pushed backwards by a DT.people bitch about a pass play on third and short, but yet forget about the 25 times the run got stuffed on 3rd and one.....:the coaches have a legitamate reason to not have much confidence in the line at gut check time. they've had numerous oppurtunities to show thier mettle , and have failed more often than not.....coffee:

revefsreleets
12-03-2008, 03:31 PM
I LOVE the posts about the past Steelers successes as well. I guess we should just line up and sell out the run regardless of whether we have the personell to do so or not just because that's the way it used to work.

Arians has a creative offense. We need to be creative to cover up some flaws/injuries up front. We also lack a dominant power back. If we ran the ball 60% of the time I GUARANTEE you we would not be 9-3, more like 6-6.

But the beauty of this is that you don't need to believe me, and I don't give a flying eff if I'm pidgeonholed as some kind of Arians apologist. The facts are that we have a shitty oline and we are still 9-3, and we could easily be 11-1. Ripping Arians is easy and it's the scapegoat mentality. I once more defer to the FO, the HC and our QB who seem to have nothing but the utmost faith and trust in Arians. That's more than good enough for me...

NYC SteelersFan
12-03-2008, 07:18 PM
I LOVE the posts about the past Steelers successes as well. I guess we should just line up and sell out the run regardless of whether we have the personell to do so or not just because that's the way it used to work.

Arians has a creative offense. We need to be creative to cover up some flaws/injuries up front. We also lack a dominant power back. If we ran the ball 60% of the time I GUARANTEE you we would not be 9-3, more like 6-6.

But the beauty of this is that you don't need to believe me, and I don't give a flying eff if I'm pidgeonholed as some kind of Arians apologist. The facts are that we have a shitty oline and we are still 9-3, and we could easily be 11-1. Ripping Arians is easy and it's the scapegoat mentality. I once more defer to the FO, the HC and our QB who seem to have nothing but the utmost faith and trust in Arians. That's more than good enough for me...

You can't be 100% sure whether or not you have the personell to rush the ball until you actually rush the ball. And that doesn't include rushing an injured Parker. Nor does it include rushing inconsistently and sporadically. Did we stop rushing the ball cause the Bus' wheels were worn down? No we discovered Willie Parker.

And if Arians was so creative and he knew how bad this o-line was coming into the season, considering everyone knew it was a weakness coming into the season, he would have filled the playbook with dump pass', shovel pass', hot routes and shotguns with 4 and 5WR sets to counter against the blitz. At the very least, these changes should have been made after the Eagles embarassed us but he didn't.

You can defer to the FO all you like. The FO thought Kordell was a franchise QB. The FO came intot he season without an o-line. The FO has let more free agent pro-bowlers leave than probably any other team in the NFL. And I don't care and still love the Steelers every year regardless of who they put on the field. But offensive coordinators get changed like dirty socks in the NFL and Arians thus far has proven miserable regardless of personell. And I too don't give a flying eff if I'm pidgeonholed by you as some kind of Arians scapegoater, I think he sucks, many others think he sucks and most of the evidence as far as our offense leans towards proving he sucks as well.

Steelers & I
12-03-2008, 08:24 PM
what are you talking about man. Bruce hasnt been O- coordinator for long. Patience. And if i remember right we had Alan Faneca on the line, and we ran the ball so much we were 3rd in the league in rushing. Take that into consideration, along with the fact that our line has given up almost the most sacks in the lead, not because we want to call all of those pass plays, but because our run game is stuck in the mud. Plus, FWP missed like what, 6-7 games? Bruce is doing fine. The O-line has just made him look bad for most of this year.


Oh OK, I'm trying to insert that bit of information into the logical slot but it continues to be REJECTED!

GridironWarrior
12-03-2008, 08:45 PM
I'm still not sold on these guys.

Makaveli
12-03-2008, 08:58 PM
Though our current group may not be the most "stellar" unit of O-lineman that we have ever fielded,.....but they are most certainly not the worst.

And for sake of not beating the whole "QB failing to get rid of the ball in a timely manner,and very average fullback play" horse to death,.....i'll just say this,...the coaches call it, players haul it.

Arians isn't on the field getting his "Hot Hands Heenan" on...... or misreading coverages and blowing assignments.

Steelers & I
12-03-2008, 09:08 PM
GOOD ANSWER......this group can't even hold the point of attack, let alone push defenders backwords to guarantee a yard.i have yet to see arians on the field being pushed backwards by a DT.people bitch about a pass play on third and short, but yet forget about the 25 times the run got stuffed on 3rd and one.....:the coaches have a legitamate reason to not have much confidence in the line at gut check time. they've had numerous oppurtunities to show thier mettle , and have failed more often than not.....coffee:

Oh we know, you're damn right the run has been stuffed on numerous 3rd and short occasions. Yes Sir, they were stuffed after Arians called for runs out of the singleback formation, you know, the formation that DOESN'T field a FB to protect the RB from the first defender that is able to penetrate the Steelers AVERAGE offensive line. And how many other times have we seen Arians play designs attempt to stretch a run wide, ALL THE WHILE KNOWING, that the offensive line has had its share of blocking and protection blunders?

You have stated that the offensive line basically sucks. I believe that they're average, and I would hope that Arians has given some thought as to what the offensive line is and is not capable of, although that's up for debate. So you tell me, with that information in mind, when faced with 3rd and short situations, what kind of maniac calls for a run play from a singleback formation? Why would someone be so STUBBORN as to ignore the OBVIOUS and REFUSE to insert a FULLBACK to absorb an initial defender who IS LIKELY to penetrate an AVERAGE, or poor as identified by you and others, offensive linemen's block?

After these plays are run, you often see Arians standing on the sideline with his thumb in his mouth wondering why the RB was just stuffed in the backfield. Oh but of course he and others will blame it on the LACK OF EXECUTION by the offensive line, an offensive line that you an many others have identified as being terrible, but yet you still expect them to hold their blocks in an offensive system that would make ALL PRO offensive linemen look average.

Lack of execution?? Yeah whatever people. I could ask my 14 year old daughter to EXECUTE a slam dunk on the portable basketball hoop but it's probably not going to happen for a few more years. So what should I do, crack the whip on her behind until she finally EXECUTES what she's currently, and may never be capable of? No, this is what I did, I lowered the rim which enabled her to "EXECUTE WITHIN HER MEANS" :doh:

tony hipchest
12-03-2008, 09:15 PM
eh, alot of people hated wisenhunts gadget plays, but they sure loved ward catching that pass from el in the SB and being named mvp. :noidea:

steelwall
12-03-2008, 09:17 PM
I LOVE the posts about the past Steelers successes as well. I guess we should just line up and sell out the run regardless of whether we have the personell to do so or not just because that's the way it used to work.

Arians has a creative offense. We need to be creative to cover up some flaws/injuries up front. We also lack a dominant power back. If we ran the ball 60% of the time I GUARANTEE you we would not be 9-3, more like 6-6.

But the beauty of this is that you don't need to believe me, and I don't give a flying eff if I'm pidgeonholed as some kind of Arians apologist. The facts are that we have a shitty oline and we are still 9-3, and we could easily be 11-1. Ripping Arians is easy and it's the scapegoat mentality. I once more defer to the FO, the HC and our QB who seem to have nothing but the utmost faith and trust in Arians. That's more than good enough for me...

Couldnt have said it better.:thumbsup:

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Common denominator: Mediocre to poor offensive lines

OC doesn't draft or select FA lineman.

Fair enough. But I personally have a hard time in writing off the 2007 Steelers offensive line as "mediocre to poor" when they ranked #3 in the NFL in Team Rushing.

Could you elaborate on how a "mediocre to poor" O line, coupled with a genius OC, could somehow playcall and block that well to have a better running game than 29 other NFL teams......but still struggle rushing the ball in short yardage situations?

MasterOfPuppets
12-03-2008, 11:57 PM
Fair enough. But I personally have a hard time in writing off the 2007 Steelers offensive line as "mediocre to poor" when they ranked #3 in the NFL in Team Rushing.

Could you elaborate on how a "mediocre to poor" O line, coupled with a genius OC, could somehow playcall and block that well to have a better running game than 29 other NFL teams......but still struggle rushing the ball in short yardage situations?BIG PLAYS........ parker had 87 yds on 16 carries...1 went for 31 yds. subtract that 31 yds, ya got 56 yds on 15 att. doesn't look so impressive now. 20 of moores 67 yds came on 1 play, ....point being ....stats don't show inconsistency, especially when you look at the ypc average.

NYC SteelersFan
12-04-2008, 12:55 AM
BIG PLAYS........ parker had 87 yds on 16 carries...1 went for 31 yds. subtract that 31 yds, ya got 56 yds on 15 att. doesn't look so impressive now. 20 of moores 67 yds came on 1 play, ....point being ....stats don't show inconsistency, especially when you look at the ypc average.

I'll take it further; That 31 yard run plus two 7 yard runs all came on the same drive with 9 minutes left in the 4th quarter when the score was 23-10 and the Patriots had already had all their wind knocked out of them. Those 45 yards by parker came on 3 consecutive rush plays and it was followed up by 3 consecutive pass plays, the first complete and the next 2 incomplete, forcing us to kick the field goal.

31+7+7=45
87-45=42

42 yards on 13 carries is miserable but that is what Willie Parker now is. 15-20 carries for crap so he can break one for 20-30 yards.

Regardless of Parker, you rush the ball 3 times in a row and gain 45 yards on their worn down defense, why do you then come back to pass 2 times in a row regardless of the situation? You're winning 23-10 and you are on your opponents 31 yard line with 6:38 to go in the game. At worst rushing the ball would eat up valuable clock and give you a field goal. Why pass 2 times in a row and risk an interception or take a sack and knock yourself out of field goal range? Especially since you're already running all over them!

The exact same thing happened in the Giants game. We're up 14-9 with 1:43 left in the 3rd quarter and the ball on the Giants 49 (I thought the game was in the bag). We rush the ball 4 TIMES IN A ROW and get to the Giants 37 and then go shotgun on 3rd and 8, Colon false starts, 3rd and 13 on the Giants 42 we pass 2 times in a row and on 4th down and 5 we give the Giants an interception on their 32 yard line with 14 minutes to go in the game. CONSERVATIVE CONSERVATIVE CONSERVATIVE! The line sucks, they're sacking the #$%^ out of the QB and pressuring him ALL GAME, you need 3 yards for a 51 yard FG which gives you a TD+2 point conversion lead with less than 14 minutes to go in the game.

Then we're still up 14-12 and 8 minutes left, 1st and 10 on the Pittsburgh 30 and the first call is a pass, incomplete. 2nd and 10, we call a rush, a loss of 4 yards. 3rd and 14, Roethlisberger sacked for an 8 yard loss and that's all she wrote. You pass on 1st and 10 and rush on 2nd and 10?

Arians makes horrible play-calling and Tomlin compunds the problem by taking risks to try and make up for Arians mistakes.

I hope it improves, I really do cause the playoffs will rudely awaken us to the reality of what is our offense.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-04-2008, 01:19 AM
BIG PLAYS........ parker had 87 yds on 16 carries...1 went for 31 yds. subtract that 31 yds, ya got 56 yds on 15 att. doesn't look so impressive now. 20 of moores 67 yds came on 1 play, ....point being ....stats don't show inconsistency, especially when you look at the ypc average.

All teams with good running games have BIG PLAYS. In 2007, the only teams with better statistical running games were the Vikings and Jaguars. Adrian Peterson, Jones-Drew and Fred Taylor all had some big runs and some runs for little or no gain. Yards are yards and believe it or not.....other NFL running backs actually have some BIG PLAYS too.

I never understand why we need to downgrade Willie Parker for big plays, while in the same breath stating that Adrian Peterson, LT, Brian Westbrook, Chris Johnson and other backs are great for breaking long runs.

My belief is there is a correlation to the Steelers inability to run the ball in short yardage and goal line situations and the previous offense that BA has guided in Cleveland. Its because the committment to a H-back instead of a FB.

markymarc
12-04-2008, 07:09 AM
I just want to see the baby steps of progress continue.

revefsreleets
12-04-2008, 10:49 AM
This is ridiculous and circular. You guys are going to spin the stats however you like to place the blame on your 'goat, Bruce Arians.

I think the bottom line is this: Arians tries to be as creative as possible given that he's had a banged up oline (which wasn't great to begin with...and, yes, they were good run blocking last year, but lacking in pass protection) to work with, has had to simplify the offense a couple of times (his offense is predicated upon complex WR crossing routes that take time to develop), and lacks a heavy-hitting power back upon which to shoulder the late game load.

We wear teams down to an extent, but it's stupid for us to expect to be able to line up and become one-dimensional with a less than stellar OL and no power back.

You guys just cherry pick that which makes Arians look bad, and ignore his strong suits. The fact is he's taken a team that is weak up front and IN SPITE of that, and some pretty average offensive rankings, found a way to score enough points to produce wins in 75% of the games we've played.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-04-2008, 11:50 AM
Rev, you vehemently defend Arians and cite other posters as ignoring facts, but then contradict that, by saying those posters "are going to spin the stats however you like to place blame on Arians". What should they do?? Observe the facts or ignore the facts?

I think Arians has a great balance of playcalling, has mixed up the run and pass well. He was a little late adapting to the blitz schemes early in the season and most of that blame was laid on the O-line, but he adapted playcalling well to correct that. All in all done a good job this season.

I honestly dont think he is on the radar of anybody for a head coaching job next season(unless NCAA) and dont think you look to fire the OC on a team that has won 75% of their games. On the other hand, you can replace the Offensive Coordinator that only has the #24 ranked offense in a 32 team league. And for a Head Coach that believes in stopping the run and running the ball....having the #1 rush defense and the #24 ranked running game with no physical presence in short yardage, isnt the best situation either.

revefsreleets
12-04-2008, 12:09 PM
How many others are defending Arians? 5-6 on this entire board? The rest bash, and that's easy to do. Every year there is a scapegoat, and fans love to pick on coaches because it leaves the beloved players unscathed.

I guess I most take umbrage with those who think that we should be running the ball more. We are balanced right about 50/50 right now, and that is a DREAM for most teams. But people want us to run 60-70% of the time, and we simply are not a team that's built for that. If we ran more, we'd be even MORE ineffective, and people would be burning Arians in effigy.

My best and favorite example of illustrating how that is NOT effective is Ohio State vs. Penn State this year. The lines were about evenly matched, and Pryor and Wells are superior runners, but no matter what, when you are facing roughly equal competition, you can't just sell out on a one-dimensional strategy. The Bucks ran almost every 1st and 2nd down right into the teeth of that Lions run defense (and PSU was able to stack 8,9,10 in the box because OSU did NOTHING but run), and the results showed in the box score and the scoreboard.

We can't run the ball effectively in short yardage situations, and what I'm hearing is that it's A) Arians fault and B) (and this is where I'm completely baffled) We should be doing it more!!!!

It's this kind of illogical circular arguing that leaves me scratching my head at the fickleness and ignorance of fans in general.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-04-2008, 12:19 PM
I guess I most take umbrage with those who think that we should be running the ball more. We are balanced right about 50/50 right now, and that is a DREAM for most teams.

We can't run the ball effectively in short yardage situations, and what I'm hearing is that it's A) Arians fault and B) (and this is where I'm completely baffled) We should be doing it more!!!!

.

I agree. The haters that didnt like Cowher Ball and running it 65% of the time, now think 50/50 is too much passing. I cant figure that out either:noidea:

The short yardage issue to me is a scheme thing. By taking a FB out of the backfield, you take away one more blocker at the point of attack (disadvantage offense).

I honestly hope that Tomlin has some more input or Arians adapts to having a legit blocker for goal line and short yardage situations. He's gotta be able to analyze the shortcomings of his system and be able to adapt and fix it. I think he just wants to prove you can get the tough yards without another blocker, which hasnt worked for him yet.

Dino 6 Rings
12-04-2008, 12:36 PM
The only thing I want to see is a first down play that results in something better than a 2nd and 10.

Then a 2nd down play that results in something better than 3rd and long.

And no more effing penalties on either side of the ball.

Oh, and I want to see us Smash in the Skulls of the entire Cowboys team, rip out their hearts and bathe in their blood!

but that's just little ole me thinking out loud.

revefsreleets
12-04-2008, 08:11 PM
Arians has used an H-back before. In fact I thought that was part of the reason we kept Davis over other better blockers, because he was versatile. An H-back is a hybrid, and can certainly be used as a FB.

I think that may be the major disconnect here. The Steelers have always run a pretty basic offense, and Arians O is anything but. "We mock what we don't understand" Is an old adage, and perhaps perfectly apropos here...

NYC SteelersFan
12-04-2008, 08:25 PM
Arians has used an H-back before. In fact I thought that was part of the reason we kept Davis over other better blockers, because he was versatile. An H-back is a hybrid, and can certainly be used as a FB.

I think that may be the major disconnect here. The Steelers have always run a pretty basic offense, and Arians O is anything but. "We mock what we don't understand" Is an old adage, and perhaps perfectly apropos here...

2006-10th in the rush, 9th in the pass, 7th overall
2007-3rd in the rush, 22nd in the pass, 17th overall
2008-22nd in the rush,19th in the pass, 24th overal

Lets wait for the season to finish up, but as it stands now, his resume is unimpressive. What is worse than the offense as a whole (which may not be 100% his fault) is the very suspect offensive play-calling at key points in the game. Calling a rush when it should be a pass, calling a pass when it should be a rush, horrible goal line play calling, horrible 3rd or 4th and 2 or less play calling and an inability to properly chew out the clock.

If everything mesh's together by the end of the season, fine, I'll give him 3 full years to bring it all together. But if it continues on this road or gets worse, it's time to give someone else a chance.

revefsreleets
12-04-2008, 08:36 PM
2006-10th in the rush, 9th in the pass, 7th overall
2007-3rd in the rush, 22nd in the pass, 17th overall
2008-22nd in the rush,19th in the pass, 24th overal

Lets wait for the season to finish up, but as it stands now, his resume is unimpressive. What is worse than the offense as a whole (which may not be 100% his fault) is the very suspect offensive play-calling at key points in the game. Calling a rush when it should be a pass, calling a pass when it should be a rush, horrible goal line play calling, horrible 3rd or 4th and 2 or less play calling and an inability to properly chew out the clock.

If everything mesh's together by the end of the season, fine, I'll give him 3 full years to bring it all together. But if it continues on this road or gets worse, it's time to give someone else a chance.


THANK YOU!

There it is. YOU know better than HE does.

Calling a rush when it should be a pass, calling a pass when it should be a rush, horrible goal line play calling, horrible 3rd or 4th and 2 or less play calling and an inability to properly chew out the clock.

Gosh, we'd score 150 points a game and rack up 1500 yards of offense a game if only YOU were the OC.

This is the same old bullshit year after year after year, different posters, different boards, same nonsense...

NYC SteelersFan
12-04-2008, 08:50 PM
THANK YOU!

There it is. YOU know better than HE does.

Calling a rush when it should be a pass, calling a pass when it should be a rush, horrible goal line play calling, horrible 3rd or 4th and 2 or less play calling and an inability to properly chew out the clock.

Gosh, we'd score 150 points a game and rack up 1500 yards of offense a game if only YOU were the OC.

This is the same old bullshit year after year after year, different posters, different boards, same nonsense...

I have never met you and yet I can say completely genuinely, I don't like you. You get on my nerves and I if I could take a shit inside your mouth I would. You are a smug, condescending man, with nothing but smug and condescending remarks. You are a classic case of "I am the smartest guy on forum". A classic, "I'm going to prove how smart I am by offering no real constructive argument, just simply make some snippy little comment and throw in some witty sarcasm to prove that I am smart and everyone else is stupid" complex. Acting as if you have first-hand, inside information to everything that goes on and the rest of us are all just idiots who are guessing our thoughts and information, who you must teach and put in our proper place by attempting to humiliate and make yourself seem god-like in your knowledge by acting as if all that comes out of your shitty mouth is fact. Please don't respond to my posts anymore and I wont respond to yours.

Steelers & I
12-04-2008, 11:42 PM
I have never met you and yet I can say completely genuinely, I don't like you. You get on my nerves and I if I could take a shit inside your mouth I would. You are a smug, condescending man, with nothing but smug and condescending remarks. You are a classic case of "I am the smartest guy on forum". A classic, "I'm going to prove how smart I am by offering no real constructive argument, just simply make some snippy little comment and throw in some witty sarcasm to prove that I am smart and everyone else is stupid" complex. Acting as if you have first-hand, inside information to everything that goes on and the rest of us are all just idiots who are guessing our thoughts and information, who you must teach and put in our proper place by attempting to humiliate and make yourself seem god-like in your knowledge by acting as if all that comes out of your shitty mouth is fact. Please don't respond to my posts anymore and I wont respond to yours.

Dude!!! That was Awesome!!!

Steelers & I
12-05-2008, 05:17 AM
This is ridiculous and circular. You guys are going to spin the stats however you like to place the blame on your 'goat, Bruce Arians.

I think the bottom line is this: Arians tries to be as creative as possible given that he's had a banged up oline (which wasn't great to begin with...and, yes, they were good run blocking last year, but lacking in pass protection) to work with, has had to simplify the offense a couple of times (his offense is predicated upon complex WR crossing routes that take time to develop), and lacks a heavy-hitting power back upon which to shoulder the late game load.

We wear teams down to an extent, but it's stupid for us to expect to be able to line up and become one-dimensional with a less than stellar OL and no power back.

You guys just cherry pick that which makes Arians look bad, and ignore his strong suits. The fact is he's taken a team that is weak up front and IN SPITE of that, and some pretty average offensive rankings, found a way to score enough points to produce wins in 75% of the games we've played.

Yeah right, like the 11 points that the Steelers put up on the Chargers? Boy, that was an offensive show. Give me a break with that BS.

This team is 9-3 IN SPITE OF ARIANS! It's the Steelers #1 rated DEFENSE that has WON MOST of the games.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-05-2008, 09:37 AM
The Steelers have always run a pretty basic offense, and Arians O is anything but....
I dont think I would categorize any NFL offense as Basic, but Arians offense doesnt seem that elaborate. He runs plays up the middle, off tackle, draws, flanker screens, play action, quick slants and takes shots deep now and then. He doesnt run many RB screens, pitches or tosses or FB leads and has never run the pony backfield that was talked about in the offseason.

That bunch formation he runs is nothing elaborate....back in the days of political incorrectness it was referred to as the "three Indians formation". I think the posters are mocking the results......not his overly complicated offense.

steelerbackr4life
12-05-2008, 10:05 AM
Agreed. My kids Parochial High School has more elaborate plays then that.